Latest / Real Patriotism / ”Who Needs that Much Money?” — Father James Martin on Billionaires vs Workers

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”Who Needs that Much Money?” — Father James Martin on Billionaires vs Workers · Real Patriotism

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I think we have um you know a corporate
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class that makes um many hundreds of
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times more than people on the factory
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floor uh make. I was a an assembly line
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worker and I think that's fundamentally
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unjust.
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>> Do you remember your first job? What was
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it? What did you learn from it? About
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work, about life. Well, my guest today
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has just written a wonderful memoir
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about all the jobs that he's had up
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until the one that he's got right now.
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He's a Catholic priest. Father James
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Martin is one of our nation's leading
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Jesuits and he has written a book called
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Work in Progress about his journey from
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dishwasher and factory worker and usher
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and caddy and what he says is corporate
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tool. He's a graduate of the Wharton
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Business School all the way to becoming
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a priest. And it's a wonderful book not
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just about his journey but about work
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itself what we learn from it and about
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how workers are treated and mistreated
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in our society. It's a great
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conversation. I hope you enjoy it. If
0:57
you do, hit like and subscribe right
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there. That'll help us a lot. Come to
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realpatriotism.com.
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That's where you'll see all of my work.
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And a technical note, we had a little
1:06
bit of a glitch, maybe more than a
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little bit, with the camera today. But
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Father James Martin is such a great
1:11
storyteller. I think you'll still enjoy
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this interview with Father James Martin.
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>> Father James Martin, great to see you.
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Thanks for doing this. Great to see you,
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Terry. Thanks for inviting me on.
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>> Uh you're a guy who who makes news uh
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both within the Catholic Church and
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outside the church. But I want to talk
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about the book that you've got out which
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does, I think, raise some really
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important questions for our lives uh at
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work. And that's kind of the theme,
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right? Work in progress is the name of
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your book. And it it's a memoir, right,
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of the jobs that you've had over the
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years, uh, from bus boy and usher to
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factory worker to corporate tool before
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becoming a Jesuit. And strikes me that
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the insights that you have looking back
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on that work and how it helped shape
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your vocation, your calling to the
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priesthood, well, that's got a message
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for all of us. Why why did you write
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this book and what did you discover
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about yourself?
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Well, uh, I wrote it initially just to
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tell some funny summer job stories. The
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book really is in two parts. Uh, it's
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finding work, as you say, in a variety
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of crazy summer jobs. Bus boy,
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dishwasher, Usher, factory, caddy, um,
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all these kinds of things. Um, but then
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my publisher said, you know, you can
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expand it a bit and have it be not just
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about sort of funny summer jobs, but
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also your um, you know, vocation to the
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Jesuits and finding God. So it's
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basically the first part is finding
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work. The second part is finding God.
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And along the way I really wanted to
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share some life lessons that I learned
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uh in those you know sort of uh labor
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intensive menial uh hardworking summer
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jobs. Uh so I think it's um it's a book
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that people can read if they want some
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sort of amusing uh you know kind of
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stories about uh crazy things that
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happened to me when I was a teenager but
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also for some life lessons about you
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know really growing up and being kind
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and living a good life.
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and your understanding of what work is
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in some ways. Work does that those hard
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jobs that people have and I it feels to
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me like
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I'm going to get deep here right away.
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You're you're a Jesuit so it'll it'll be
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fine. Uh but it seems to me one of the
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problems we have in our country, right?
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One of the one of the issues, one of the
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things that's driving these terrible
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divides between us is that not enough
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people feel seen and respected
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in their work. And there is a kind of
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pull up the drawbridge mentality among a
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certain professional class of people
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who've made it. and this sense of what
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do I want to say egalitarianism
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that when you go to the department store
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and there's somebody you know checking
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you out that's that's work and it's as
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honorable as anything Elon Musk does
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more maybe what do you think
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>> I think that's right and I think we have
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um you know a corporate class that makes
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um many hundreds of times more than
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people on the factory floor uh make I
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was a an assembly line worker and I
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think that's fundamentally unjust um and
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one of the things I talk about in the
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book is how, you know, every job has
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dignity. Of course, every person has
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dignity, but they also deserve a just
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wage and a fair wage. And I think when
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we have some people who are now, the
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first trillionaire, Elon Musk, there's
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something wrong with the system that is
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like that. I mean, I'm a capitalist. I
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went to Wharton. I talk about that in
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the book. But the capitalist went to
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Wharton business school.
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>> Yes, I did. But the capitalist system is
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uh not perfect and it's it's wanting.
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And one of the ways that it is wanting
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is that it leaves people sort of at the
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mercy of the profit um motivation
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completely. And uh you know if it's not
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in the corporate interest to pay people
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a just wage, they don't do it. And I
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think that's that's pretty unjust.
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>> Yeah. My dad worked for Sears his whole
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career, you know, from writing copy for
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the catalog. He he rose to a high level
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in the company. And I remember at after
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after he passed which was in the early
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80s when I was a young man very young
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just not even out of college. Uh you
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know I took a look at his his tax
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returns and this is some years later
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actually after my mother died and he was
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making what most top executives and he
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was top executive of a big company.
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Sears was one of the top companies in
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the country in the world you know 30 40
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times what the average Sears worker
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made. And today that guy or not at Sears
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anywhere else and they're mostly guys
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are making 300 to 400 times. And that
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sense of respect went right down to the
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floor. We bought everything. I have nine
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brothers and sisters. We bought
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everything at Sears and my mom would
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troop the the little ones in. I was to
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at the tail end of the family to get
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shoes. And there was a fella there was a
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guy in this in a suit helping us pick
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out our shoes, stride shoes or whatever.
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and that was a living wage and he was
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respected by my mom. They he he loved
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watching us come in because we were
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going to buy all those shoes and that's
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all gone. That sense of what of unity of
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purpose and of of dignity as you said.
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>> I think that's gone. And I think the um
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just what you said Terry, the idea that
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you would work your whole life for a
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corporation and that the corporation I
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mean I worked for GE. I talk about this
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in the book. The corporation had a
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responsibility to you in a sense, right?
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that it was a two-way street that you
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gave you sacrificed a lot and the
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corporation would pay you a just wage
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would give you benefits would you give
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you job security. Now obviously you know
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not every company can do that but these
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days it's more like the wild west you
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know it's basically you know we can fire
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you at will we can pay you what what we
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want and it is at the sort of enrichment
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of the oligarchs and you know people who
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are super wealthy and again that's
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that's just unjust. So I think as I say
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in the book, you know, profit cannot be
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the only measure of a success for a
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company. It is also how much they
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contribute to the common good, right?
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Which is a an idea that I think has gone
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by the wayside.
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>> It sure has. I was just going to say
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that that sounds like an alien from
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another planet talking to contemporary
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America. All that all that spirit is is
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gone. I did a charity event once out in
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Silicon Valley. I did some Alzheimer's
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Association work. was a an MC, a host of
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their gallas and and this was on
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whatever Sand Hill Road, the venture
7:37
capitalist road of America out in
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Silicon Valley, some of the richest
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people in the world, most powerful. And
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they all got together. Tony Bennett
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sang. It was great. I got to introduce
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Tony Bennett. Uh but at the end, as
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we're all breaking up, the gentleman and
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ladies were leaving in their in their
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limos and all that. And one of the women
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turned to me and she said, "Thank you
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very much. We never do this here. And I
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was like, what?
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You never have a charity gall? I mean,
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there the parish church, you know, will
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have a bake sale or bingo to to raise
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money. And the richest people in the
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world, and the statistics bear this out,
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>> don't really give anymore at all.
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>> Well, you know, it's interesting. Uh
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people always say, well, it's very
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complex. You can't understand it. And
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again, I went to Wharton. I talked about
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in the book. I I understand the
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capitalist system. At some point, it's a
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choice, right? At some point, if you're
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a billionaire or a trillionaire, it's a
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choice. How much money you give back,
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how much money you keep, and who needs
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that much money? That's that's the key,
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right? Who needs that much money? And
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so, um, I think we've reached a point in
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our society where that's accepted. And I
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I one of the things I talk about in the
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book is that we really need to respect
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again people who work these sort of
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manual labor jobs. They deserve an
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income and a living wage and a
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comfortable lifestyle and health care
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and benefits as much as any of the uh
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you know corporate titans do. I mean you
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know it's interesting Pope Leo talks
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about that in his new encyclical right
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that uh that the profit motive cannot be
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the only measure of success of a
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business. And you're right, it does
9:11
sound alien, but really it's I mean for
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most of our uh sort of um you know
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post-industrial age that was kind of the
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idea, you know, certainly in the 50s and
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60s and 70s that the company would take
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care of you too.
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>> And that that's gone. So that's that's
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factory worker helped contribute to that
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insight. How about caddy? What tell me
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about your caddying days.
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>> I was the worst caddy ever. I was really
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a terrible caddy. Most of the book uh
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not to get too serious, most of the book
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is not a critique of capitalism. Most of
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the book is kind of I was struck by
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>> fun summer fun summer job stories. Um
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yeah, I cattied at the Philadelphia
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Cricut Club, a very uh sort of Tony um
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you know high-end uh country club
9:51
outside of Philadelphia and I did not
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golf before. And so as a result when
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people ask me for what club to use, I
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wasn't always the best person to ask. So
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I tell some crazy stories about that. I
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learned a lot about what it's like to be
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on the receiving end of kind of
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humiliation, too, because, you know, I
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was working with I was, you know,
10:09
catting for a lot of these rich, you
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know, lawyers and doctors and
10:13
businessmen, and they weren't always
10:14
nice to a 16-year-old kid from a public
10:17
school outside of Philly. So, I learned
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a lot about uh being mean, or rather not
10:23
being mean. Uh, one of the lessons I
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learned in the book is when I'm sort of
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mistreated as a bus boy or a caddy or an
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assembly line worker, how often I would
10:30
say to myself, I'm never going to treat
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somebody like this, you know, never. And
10:34
that was as effective as a year's worth
10:37
of homalies on being kind to people.
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>> That's great. And it it seems to me that
10:44
getting to a point where you as you do
10:47
because I've and we'll we'll get into
10:49
this a little bit later. You know, we
10:50
we've had we've known each other for
10:52
more than 10 years. Um
10:55
it seems to me that getting to the point
10:57
where your response to certain
10:59
situations,
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it leans toward decency, towards being a
11:04
good human being, a good guy. There's a
11:08
discipline. And I I remember watching
11:11
Pope Francis who whom you were close to
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um you know as he went around the square
11:16
at St. Peter's and and I remember the
11:19
fellow with the very disfiguring disease
11:23
of of his face and u Pope Francis
11:26
hugging him. It's a famous famous
11:28
picture and I I thought wow you know
11:30
most people recoil
11:32
and he seemed to be taking joy in the
11:35
moment and I thought that's a that's not
11:38
that doesn't come naturally that it's a
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commitment
11:43
a practice. I think that's right. That's
11:45
a really interesting sort of
11:46
philosophical uh question because uh not
11:49
to get too philosophical but Aristotle
11:52
as you probably know said that you know
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you can practice virtue and then it
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eventually becomes a habit right you
11:57
practice good things and eventually
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you're sort of conditioned that way um
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you know I remember that uh that
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encounter with that man with that
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disfiguring skin disease and I would
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think you know in a sense you know Pope
12:08
Francis probably felt a normal human uh
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kind of aversion to that But he knew
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what to do because he had kind of, you
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know, practiced that way of Jesus for
12:18
his whole life. But it is, it's, you
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know, I think Christianity is pretty
12:21
tough, you know. I mean, it's hard to be
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nice to the poor and give to the poor
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and care for the sick and forgive
12:27
people, right? And pray for your enemies
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and love those who persecute you. That's
12:31
that's kind of tough. So, but I think
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the more we practice it, you know, as
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Aristotle would say, the more becomes
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that these habits become a virtue and it
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just sort of becomes part of who you
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are. And now I mean I would never think
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ever ever ever of like you know
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mistreating someone who was you know a
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bus boy or a caddy or a dishwasher or
12:49
anybody you know someone on the subway
12:51
or you know anybody and I think that's
12:54
just kind of ingrained in a person you
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know the longer they you they understand
12:57
that this is what Jesus asks and also
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you know as Aristotle would say the
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longer you practice these habits they
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become virtues
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>> it makes the world a a better place. All
13:08
right. So, usher. Do you see a lot of
13:10
movies? What What kind of ushering were
13:12
you?
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>> I was a movie theater usher at the
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Cinema on the Mall um in Plymouth
13:16
Meeting, Pennsylvania in I guess the
13:18
summer of 1977,778
13:21
79 somewhere around there. I say it in
13:23
the book a little more precisely. Uh
13:26
yeah, I um I tore tickets and saw movies
13:28
like The Goodbye Girl, The Cat from
13:31
Outer Space, uh The Revenge of the Pink
13:33
Panther. Not the best movies ever, but I
13:35
also made I talk about in the book how I
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made bags and bags and bags of popcorn.
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That was one of my duties. And uh let me
13:42
just say after you read the book, you
13:44
will never want to eat movie popcorn
13:45
again. There is so much
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>> so much awful stuff poured into that uh
13:51
that you know like animal fat and you
13:53
know flavoring and all this kind of
13:54
stuff. But uh yeah, and I also changed
13:57
the movie marquee, the big sign out
13:59
front um uh after the last movie
14:02
theater. That's the last movie would
14:03
end. You would go out there at 9:00 in
14:06
the pitch dark and you would put these
14:07
big foot high letters on this sign. And
14:10
if you think about it, you're in front
14:11
of this bright brightly lit sign which
14:13
meant that every gnat and fly and moth
14:15
>> from the tri-state area came in and bit
14:19
you and flapped on you. And so anyway,
14:21
it was I learned a lot in that job.
14:24
>> Well, that's that's the virtue of uh of
14:27
having hard work when you're when you're
14:29
young, right? I think my my first job
14:31
was a dishwasher
14:33
>> in a restaurant
14:34
>> and you know you're a low man on the
14:36
totem pole when you're when you're the
14:38
dishwasher in a restaurant and it was
14:40
actually surreptitious. So I was in high
14:43
school and my my dad didn't want he came
14:46
from very poor background and did well
14:48
and so he didn't really want his kids to
14:49
work in high school. is your job is to
14:51
get good grades. That I didn't do very
14:53
well. But uh I got caught and after a
14:57
few weeks at washing dishes at the at
14:59
this diner. But I that is hard work. I
15:02
mean and you commit to eight hours a
15:05
day. It wasn't eight hours. It was like
15:06
a few hours a day and you can't get out
15:09
of it. You're stuck there in the summer
15:11
because it was a summer job sweltering,
15:14
smelling, and um you learn.
15:17
>> It is hard work. I worked at a place
15:19
called the Ice Cream Inn. This is 50
15:21
years ago in the summer of 1976. Uh, and
15:24
we were all about the bicesentennial
15:26
back then. But here's my question to a
15:28
fellow dishwasher. How many dishes and
15:29
glasses did you break?
15:32
>> Uh, plenty.
15:32
>> I did too.
15:33
>> Plenty. I mean, a whole tray of glasses
15:35
that I remember.
15:37
>> Yes.
15:38
>> Let's hear about that. Were you carrying
15:39
them and then dropped them or tripped or
15:40
what?
15:41
>> I was pulling them down the down the
15:43
belt, right? And I hit the side of the
15:45
belt and over they went and uh I'm sure
15:48
you can still hear the noise in your
15:49
head, right?
15:51
>> Yeah.
15:51
>> Yeah. No, I I learned a lot. That was
15:53
that was my first, as my parents said,
15:55
real job. Bus boy, dishwasher at the ice
15:57
cream in because I got a I got a
15:58
paycheck for that. Before I was a paper
16:00
boy and a lawn mower, but this is the
16:02
first job. And I felt, you know, you
16:03
also feel proud. You know, as 15 years
16:05
old, you got your working papers and you
16:07
have your bus boy smok and uh you're
16:10
like, this is a real job. And and it it
16:12
gives you a sense of, you know, a sense
16:14
of meaning in a in a way. I I really
16:16
look back on that as as a job I learned
16:18
a lot about hard work and showing up and
16:20
just doing your work on time.
16:23
>> Yeah. And and walking around money and
16:25
that's really what I was after at 16 or
16:27
whatever it was.
16:29
>> And uh and when it was taken away from
16:31
me because I was supposed to be studying
16:33
rather than making money um I was
16:36
disappointed. I was very disappointed.
16:38
>> Well, my parents were the opposite. It
16:39
was very funny. The two epigraphs at the
16:41
beginning of the book are my dad saying
16:43
uh in response to my complaining, "Of
16:46
course that's not fun. Why do you think
16:47
they call it work? If it were if it were
16:49
fun, they'd call it play." And my mom,
16:51
that was the other epigraph, uh which
16:54
is, "Well, you're not going to sit
16:55
inside all summer. That's for sure." So,
16:58
they sort of forced me to work from age
17:01
like 14 and on.
17:03
>> I think that's much healthier. I
17:05
actually think that's much healthier. I
17:06
think my dad had some shame or he was
17:08
>> his family was put out on the street
17:09
during the depression and he was the
17:11
oldest and dad disappeared for a while
17:13
and and I think and he never I never
17:15
heard that until after he died.
17:17
>> He never mentioned it.
17:18
>> So he didn't want you to have to do
17:20
manual labor like he did.
17:22
>> Yeah. But I think it's it's good for
17:24
young people. It's good.
17:26
>> Well, and as I say in the books
17:28
>> Yeah. As I say in the book, the number
17:29
of people the percentage of young kids
17:31
that are doing that these days has
17:32
declined dramatically since the 60s and
17:34
70s. And I think a lot of them, you
17:36
know, they want Yeah. they want more
17:38
kind of unpaid internships and whatnot
17:40
to, you know, which makes sense. I mean,
17:41
in terms of uh applications to college
17:44
and whatnot, but when I was growing up,
17:46
uh I think I'm a little older than you
17:47
are. When I was growing up, everyone
17:49
worked and you just that's what you did
17:51
during the summer. And so this this uh
17:54
book was kind of a it's a it's also a
17:56
sort of a portrait of a vanishing age,
17:57
too.
17:59
>> Yeah. Yeah. As you say, that that's
18:01
changed a lot of kids. Uh where I am
18:04
right now, a lot of the kids are doing
18:07
sports all summer long at a very highly
18:09
competitive level. If they if they think
18:11
that they've got a shot at some college
18:12
money, they're going to be on these
18:14
travel teams flying around the country
18:16
for tournaments. And uh and that's a
18:18
that's hard, but it's not the same
18:20
thing. And um I like the idea I'm going
18:24
to make my younger children here work
18:26
when they come.
18:27
>> Now they're going to blame me for the
18:29
rest. They're going to blame me for the
18:30
rest of their lives.
18:32
That's true. That's true. You know, I
18:35
want to shift gears a little bit and and
18:36
back to uh your priesthood and service
18:40
in the church. And you mentioned Pope
18:41
Francis and you did you had a huge I I
18:44
don't know if our viewers know this. I'm
18:46
sure many who will see you will want to
18:49
listen to you. But for those who are
18:50
just kind of tuning in on a regular
18:52
basis, you had a big you're major figure
18:55
in the Catholic Church and a
18:56
controversial one. But I want to ask
18:58
about Pope Francis who who was your
19:02
partner in this effort that to change
19:04
the church in some ways or to change its
19:06
approach in some ways. What was Pope
19:07
Francis like?
19:08
>> A wonderful guy. And I would not to not
19:10
to correct you or put you on the spot. I
19:12
would say I was his partner. He wasn't
19:14
my partner. I was helping him. Uh he was
19:16
great. I I would say the most important
19:20
thing to know about Pope Francis that he
19:21
was a very kind person. He was just a
19:23
really nice guy. And uh you know I only
19:27
met with him one-on-one maybe five or
19:29
six times and then I participated in the
19:31
senate that he asked me to be be a
19:33
delegate to. Always kind, funny as hell.
19:37
um you know even through a translator
19:39
very relaxed and just uh very free as we
19:42
would say in the Jesuits very free just
19:44
a just a really kind person and uh you
19:48
know uh emotional I would say at times
19:50
and uh you know didn't mind sort of
19:54
mixing things up as he said in the
19:55
church I want to cause a mess a lot of
19:57
people accuse him of making too much of
19:59
a mess but I really think a very saintly
20:01
person I was really privileged to know
20:03
him and the times I spent with him
20:05
one-on-one were huge huge huge grace and
20:08
blessing in my life.
20:10
>> He he was um and I covered him a couple
20:13
of times on the trips and that's where
20:14
we first met when he came to to America.
20:17
Um and I remember thinking as he took
20:20
the questions and answered them that the
20:22
press gave me had a press conference on
20:24
the plane as Pope's will on their last
20:27
leg of a foreign trip and I did that a
20:29
few times.
20:30
>> I remember thinking he he's a natural
20:32
man. Other words, he's without artifice.
20:36
as much as well I mean I know a lot of
20:38
people would disagree with that given
20:39
the nature of his governance of the
20:40
church but he seemed to me to be you ask
20:43
him a question you got an answer
20:44
>> absolutely and I think that you know
20:45
that got him in trouble you know a lot
20:47
of times because he would sort of shoot
20:48
from the hip I think pope Leo is a lot
20:50
more measured I would say he's still
20:52
pretty he's still very spontaneous more
20:54
spontaneous than I thought he would be
20:55
when he was elected but Francis was
20:58
really
20:59
>> you know he just would be very honest
21:01
with people and I think that really
21:03
upset people because they were used to
21:05
Pope hopes being a little more I would
21:06
say circumspect uh and reserved and and
21:09
tacetern but Francis was not uh and he
21:12
would say things to me I I still have
21:14
not been able to repeat them publicly
21:16
that were just so funny and uh I'll I'll
21:19
share them with you uh at another time
21:22
uh but just very blunt and very honest
21:24
and and also he was very smart. He knew
21:26
exactly what was going on in the church
21:28
and in in in you know political spheres
21:31
and this is a very smart guy. So, I
21:33
really loved him and was grateful for
21:37
his support. I work with LGBT Catholics.
21:39
He was always extremely supportive. At
21:42
one point, I'll tell you a funny story.
21:43
The first time I met with him in his uh
21:45
office in the Vatican, I was going on
21:48
and on about LGBT Catholics and this and
21:51
that because I thought maybe I'll never
21:52
see him again. And uh halfway through I
21:55
realized, oh my gosh, I'm kind of
21:57
dominating this conversation.
21:59
Maybe he wants to ask me something else
22:01
like you know about the church in
22:02
America or the Jesuits or something my
22:04
religious order. So I said to him
22:06
through a translator, "Holy Father, what
22:08
can I do for you?" Meaning, you know,
22:09
can I do you want me to answer any
22:11
questions or something? And he said,
22:13
"You can continue your ministry in
22:15
peace. That's what you can do for me."
22:17
Just really beautiful. So it was a real
22:19
kind of benediction for me. Um and you
22:23
know, that didn't mean he agreed with
22:24
every single thing I did. I didn't run
22:26
it by him, but it was a real sort of
22:29
blessing for me to hear that from him.
22:30
So really, I I really miss him. But I
22:32
think Leo is doing a great job.
22:34
>> Well, I want to get to Le, but I want to
22:36
ask about that ministry because
22:38
it it's it's touched a lot of people,
22:40
right? you you're trying to your work as
22:43
I understand it and let me just capture
22:44
it if I can is to is to find a space for
22:48
LGBT people in the Catholic Church, a
22:52
space where their uh spiritual
22:56
aspirations and lives can be welcomed
22:58
without changing church doctrine or or
23:01
whatever. uh but more living up to the
23:04
calling that we all have as people and
23:07
certainly as Christians to welcome the
23:09
stranger to reach out to people we don't
23:12
know to uh judge not lest lest we be
23:16
judged and I'll tell a little story the
23:18
one of the first times we met um so I'm
23:21
I'm a divorced and remarried Catholic so
23:24
that has put me uh in you know an
23:27
awkward place in some ways and yet I I'm
23:30
I'm a Christian and and uh and love the
23:33
church in my way. And I remember talking
23:34
to you because we were I just met you
23:36
and you said and this is what a good
23:38
priest does I think and I'm going to
23:39
brag on you a little bit here is I you
23:43
were just kind of waiting for the the
23:46
occasion to get underway and he said so
23:48
what's going on with you and I was going
23:50
on with me right so I I told you and you
23:53
and you said well do you and I said I
23:55
kind of I kind of miss going to church.
23:57
He says, "Well, do you uh do you want
23:59
to?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "Well,
24:00
you should you should go. You should go.
24:02
You should that's that's not a reward
24:04
for goody goody two shoes. It's a well,
24:07
Francis should call it a hospital. The
24:08
church should be a hospital for people
24:10
who are wounded on the battlefield of
24:11
life, which I was at the time." And that
24:14
kind of changed my life. I It brought me
24:16
back to something very important to me.
24:19
And I know other people, mutual friends,
24:22
who have connected with you in the same
24:24
way, feeling because of who they were,
24:26
whether they're gay or like me or
24:28
whatever, left out.
24:30
And that's the kind of work you're
24:33
doing, right?
24:34
>> Yeah, I'm trying to I mean, because
24:36
that's the kind of work that Jesus did.
24:37
I'm not comparing myself to him, but
24:39
he's our model. And uh, you know, as far
24:41
as the Eucharist goes, Pope Francis, I
24:43
probably quoted this to you, said, "It's
24:44
not a prize for the perfect." you know,
24:47
it's medicine for people who need it,
24:49
right? And who who approach it? We we go
24:51
to confession and and but you know, who
24:53
approaches the communion line, you know,
24:56
with, you know, in a perfect state of
24:58
grace, right? I mean, unless Jesus or
25:01
Mary are going up, right? They're not.
25:03
So, we're all in different ways
25:05
imperfect. But yeah, what what we try to
25:07
do um in our outreach ministry is to
25:09
reach out to people, especially LGBTQ
25:11
people who feel excluded or ignored or
25:14
rejected in their own church, right? And
25:16
this is what Francis did. Francis kept
25:18
saying the church is for totos or
25:21
tootiot toti for everybody. And Leo has
25:24
repeated that. And uh so yeah, it's the
25:27
it's the work of Jesus. It's the work of
25:29
going out to people on the margins who
25:30
feel left out or excluded and bringing
25:32
them in in inside. this that's what
25:34
Jesus did his whole life and that's what
25:36
we try to do.
25:39
>> So Pope Leo uh the first Chicago pope uh
25:44
the first American pope but I prefer to
25:45
think of him as someone who's born and
25:47
raised and his parents and grandparents
25:48
were born and raised in uh Chicago in
25:50
the Chicago area. He's the first Chicago
25:52
pope. But what what's your impression?
25:55
>> I knew him a little bit before the uh
25:57
conclave that elected him. I had sat at
26:00
the same table with him for two weeks at
26:02
the Senate, this big multi-year
26:04
gathering of Catholics, and I was very
26:07
impressed with him from the get-go. Um,
26:09
I think the word that describes him the
26:12
best, and of course, I'm not his best
26:13
friend. I don't know him that well. Uh,
26:15
but from my interactions with him, uh,
26:18
is reserved. He's very reserved. Um,
26:21
after he was elected, um, I mean, I was
26:24
very excited because I knew him. I'll
26:25
tell you a funny story if I can, Terry.
26:27
I was so excited. Um, you know, I was
26:30
helping out and uh uh on a on a TV
26:33
station and I came back to my Jesuit
26:36
community and I was so excited. I said,
26:38
"I can't believe it. He was at my table
26:40
at the Senate and one of the Jesuits
26:42
said, "No, you were at his table at the
26:44
Senate,
26:46
like putting me in my place." Um, so
26:49
after the election, I ran into an
26:51
Augustininian, a member of the same
26:52
religious order that uh, Pope Leo
26:54
belongs to. And he said, I said,
26:57
"Congratulations. He's this Augustinian.
27:00
He was an American." And I said, "Do you
27:02
know him?" And he said, "Who, Bob?" And
27:04
I said, "Yes, Bob." Uh, he said, "I
27:06
know. I've known him for 40 years." I
27:08
said, "What's he like?"
27:09
>> He said, "He's very kind. He's very
27:12
smart. He's a great listener. We elected
27:15
him prior general the first time uh
27:17
because we liked him. We elected him the
27:19
second time because he did a good job,
27:20
right? But I'll never forget this. He's
27:23
no pushover.
27:25
And that's what stuck with me. So kind,
27:28
prayerful, thoughtful, smart as
27:31
anything. Uh but not a pushover. And
27:34
then some a cardinal recently described
27:36
him to me like this with this word which
27:38
I really like. He's not just uh
27:41
sympathetic. He's not just a good
27:42
listener, but he is curious,
27:46
which I love. I mean, he's interested
27:48
when he meets people. He's curious about
27:50
people. He's curious to to understand,
27:51
you know, how things work and what
27:53
people's points of view are. I frankly
27:55
think it was a brilliant choice, you
27:57
know, motivated by the Holy Spirit. And
27:59
I I frankly think that I don't think he
28:01
has set a foot wrong. I mean, I think
28:03
he's done an amazing job. I think his
28:05
new encyclical is great. And I I just
28:06
think the world of him. And he's he's
28:10
doing this at a moment of high tension
28:12
and and in danger in some ways for the
28:16
church because I would say in some ways
28:18
the the moral conflict in the world
28:22
right now in some ways at the governance
28:24
level
28:25
I mean the two polar opposites are
28:28
president or two Americans. President
28:29
Trump who has a way of you know
28:32
transactional. He's not super you know
28:34
interested in the morality of things.
28:36
What's in it for him? He glorifies
28:38
himself. He lies all the time. He's a
28:40
bully. He's uh, you know, deporting
28:42
people in ways that violate the law and
28:45
their dignity and rights. And here's
28:48
Pope Leo speaking out like no Pope has.
28:51
Two Americans having this big debate.
28:56
>> Well, I would say presending, you know,
28:58
any critique of of President Trump. I
29:00
would say that Pope Leo is also trying
29:03
not to be political. I mean, you'll
29:05
notice, as I'm sure as a journalist,
29:07
that he only mentions, you know,
29:09
President Trump's name when he's asked
29:11
like, "What do you think about what
29:12
President Trump did?" Otherwise, he's
29:14
talking just about the gospels. He's
29:16
talking about migrants and refugees.
29:17
He's talking about welcoming the
29:18
stranger. He's talking about human
29:19
dignity. In his recent encyclical, he's
29:22
talking about, you know, privileging
29:23
human dignity over in the time of AI.
29:26
So, he's rarely political. He's rarely
29:28
saying, I'm now going to focus on this
29:30
particular incident or person, you know.
29:33
Uh so I think he's he's basically just
29:36
preaching the gospel which is his that's
29:38
his job.
29:40
>> It can be pointed though.
29:42
>> Yes. Yeah. I mean he's not as as as this
29:44
Augustinian said he's no pushover. And
29:47
he also look I think one of the
29:49
interesting elements of uh Leo's papacy
29:53
is that people in the United States can
29:55
no longer say as they did under Francis
29:57
and maybe even under Benedict and John
29:59
Paul he doesn't understand the United
30:01
States. So we really don't have to take
30:03
him seriously. Or well actually in the
30:06
Italian or Spanish that means something
30:07
different. Here you have a pope who is
30:09
an American who speaks obviously you
30:12
know perfect English and when he speaks
30:14
people understand him and when he speaks
30:17
people know that he knows what he's
30:18
talking about.
30:19
>> So I think he I think he's very
30:21
effective uh particularly on the
30:23
American scene.
30:25
>> Yeah, it's fascinating to watch and
30:26
watch people's responses to him. I I'm
30:28
going to wrap this up but with a a kind
30:30
of big picture question on on this
30:33
crisis that we're having in our country
30:35
and in many places around the world
30:37
about how to live together in a
30:39
political society um and recognizing
30:42
each other as even across political
30:45
divides as as fellow humans and brothers
30:49
and sisters and all the rest of it. Uh
30:52
that seems to have degraded a lot. Now,
30:56
my own operating theory of American
30:59
politics is still that the best kept
31:02
secret in American life is that most
31:04
people are still normal. They actually
31:06
don't want a raging face eating debate
31:11
or or tearing the country apart. But it
31:14
does feel like those louder voices are
31:16
the ones that are driving events. And I
31:18
wonder how you feel as somebody whose,
31:20
you know, job it is to try to call on
31:22
our better natures. You feel optimistic.
31:24
think you feel pessimistic, you feel
31:26
depressed, you feel how do you feel
31:28
about the way things are going in our
31:29
country?
31:29
>> I think you're right that most people
31:31
are normal. I'm going to quote you on
31:32
that. I think that's true. Uh but I
31:34
think that the the the debate and the
31:37
discussion, if you will, uh in the
31:39
country has become really coarssened. I
31:41
think a lot of that is because of social
31:43
media, you know, because people can
31:44
feel, you know, uh cloaked by anonymity.
31:47
I do think it's happened in the last,
31:49
you know, 10 or 15 years for various
31:51
political reasons. We have various
31:53
people on the political scene who speak
31:54
coarsely. Um but I think there are
31:57
certain things we can do to you know
31:59
counteract that. First we can give
32:01
people the benefit of the doubt right?
32:03
We can kind of assume the best with
32:05
people. Uh we can um try to be friends
32:08
with people uh who are on opposite
32:10
divides. And also it's very easy to just
32:12
avoid ad homonym or sort of personal
32:15
attacks. I think that's just a very
32:16
simple thing to do. We we disagree with
32:18
the argument not the person. we say, "I
32:20
don't agree with that argument." Not,
32:21
"You're a terrible Christian, you're a
32:23
demon, you're a bad Christian, you're a
32:24
heretic." Um, but I think it's it's, you
32:28
know, it's it's part of for a Christian,
32:30
it's part of what we're supposed to do.
32:32
We're supposed to, you know, Jesus says,
32:34
"Love our enemies and pray for those who
32:36
persecute you." And that's just part of
32:38
being a Christian. And I think more
32:40
broadly, it's just part of being a good
32:42
person. So,
32:43
>> yeah. And it does it does remind me of
32:45
something Michelle Obama said. You you
32:47
mentioned try to try to be friends. just
32:49
try to, you know, reach across and
32:50
actually find common interest uh beyond
32:52
your differences. I live in a purple
32:55
congressional district, more or less.
32:57
And u and a lot of the folks around here
32:59
voted for Trump. I went to Vegas not
33:01
long ago that my wife, one of my wife's
33:04
friends and her friend uh they turned 40
33:07
and so off we went with husbands and
33:10
wives for a couple of days in Vegas. And
33:13
um it was and both of them were, you
33:15
know, had voted for Trump over the years
33:17
and it was great. And what Michelle
33:18
Obama likes to say is it's hard to hate
33:20
up close.
33:21
>> That's great. You know, when I was at
33:23
the Senate, there were people from all
33:24
over the world, all over the church,
33:26
from, you know, liberal, conservative,
33:28
uh, you know, left, right, even though
33:30
we don't use those terms in the church.
33:32
And one of the lines I liked was from
33:35
St. John Paul II who said, "A effective
33:38
collegiality precedes effective
33:40
collegiality." In other words, a effect
33:42
of being friends and getting to know
33:45
people is uh, you know, a requirement
33:48
for any sort of discussion, you know, on
33:51
difficult topics. A effective
33:52
collegiality precedes effective
33:54
collegiality. So, I think that trying to
33:56
become friends with people that you
33:57
disagree with is is really key. And
33:59
also, frankly, um, it's much more
34:02
relaxing. I mean, there are people I
34:03
know who are really to the right of me
34:06
in the church who I'm friends with, and
34:08
it just makes the conversation a lot
34:10
more relaxing. and even dare I say fun
34:12
at times because you can, you know, you
34:14
can disagree and have fun and get into
34:16
heated conversations really while
34:18
respecting the other person's dignity.
34:21
>> Well, that's a great bit of advice for
34:24
us. Uh, and Father Jim Martin, I really
34:26
appreciate you doing this. Good luck.
34:28
The book is called Work in Progress.
34:31
Father James Martin is the author. It
34:34
sounds like a lot of fun. I'm going to
34:35
finish it over the next couple of days.
34:36
Thanks for doing this.
34:37
>> My pleasure. Thank you, Terry.