Latest / History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present / Yes, There Were Angry Young Men Before the Internet (Ft. Adolescence, 8 Mile, and Blackboard Jungle)

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Yes, There Were Angry Young Men Before the Internet (Ft. Adolescence, 8 Mile, and Blackboard Jungle) · History Harpies: Pop Culture, Past and Present

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They say we're loud, opinionated, afraid Telling
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us to hush, dim our historical light But darlings,
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we're the Harpies, sharp and keen Unveiling the
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truth behind the silver screen History Harpies
0:17
hear us roar And I'm Christine. And this week
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we're going to be talking about angry young men
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of all sorts across decades and in all different
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forms. Since last week we talked about female
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friendships and now we are taking it to the boys.
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Right. So let's start out with us. The girls.
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How was your week, Christine? How has it been
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going for you? My week has been a good one in
1:01
that this was the last week of the semester,
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and there was a lot of grading, but it finished,
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and so now I'm getting ready for my next class.
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But this week is always a nice little break in
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between classes, so that's been great. How about
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you Lauren? Well my week has been great because
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as you know last weekend you and I went to a
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real mall. A mall. We live in a place where there
1:27
is no real mall and as Gen Xers we are mall aficionados.
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Mall rats one might even say. We are definitely
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mall rats. We shopped, we ate, we went to the
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food court. Sadly I've been on the search for
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a perfect summer straw bag. And I can't seem
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to find one only because the bags do not have
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closures at the top. And as a clumsy person and
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admittedly someone who stops the car. randomly.
2:01
Where things quickly fall out. Where things fall
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out, I am concerned about what kind of bag I
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should get. So listeners, if you have a bag recommendation
2:10
for me, please send it in. Post it in the comments.
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I am on the prowl for this bag. With full closure.
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Full closure. And also not something that looks
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like a beach bag. No. So small in size. Right.
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Not too small. Not too small. Just right. This
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is the unicorn of bags. It really is. And it's
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also a bag that because it is a summer bag, you're
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really gonna only use it for three or four months.
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Then you're gonna put it away. So it isn't an
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investment piece unless you are a white lotus
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chick or something like that. So... Again, I
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recommend, I really am asking for your advice
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on what kind of bag to get. And if you have a
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summer bag, a raffia bag that you love, please
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share. And let's hope you get some good responses
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for that one. Yeah, I really hope so. And find
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your unicorn bag. So going from this girly theme
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of the bags to now a whole bunch of angry men.
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Angry men and boys, perhaps, perhaps. We're going
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to start by talking about a show that has gotten
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an incredible amount of attention very recently.
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And that is the Netflix series Adolescents, which
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just debuted on Netflix earlier this spring.
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Has gotten so much attention, perhaps more attention,
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Lauren, than was really warranted. Look, this
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show, when it came out, my mother called me.
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I read all of these reviews that said if this
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were a film it would have swept the Oscars. This
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is the most radically new thought provoking into
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adolescence and toxic masculinity and the Manosphere
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and all of these ideas that are circulating around
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public discourse and so we felt that it was our
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obligation to watch this film, in part because
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my mother would have been very angry if I didn't
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watch it, but also because I felt that it, we
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both felt that it bled into many pod themes and
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other films that we thought about and wanted
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to discuss. Absolutely. And something else. I
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am a devotee of First Wave on SiriusXM. And a
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DJ one afternoon, he paused and said, this is
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the greatest show ever known to man. My wife
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and I are just absolutely wedded to it. We can't
4:52
wait to finish the series. It is so important,
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so socially conscious, so amazing. And certainly
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as the mother of sons, as you also are, Lauren.
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It especially seemed necessary that mothers of
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sons watch this show. I have also heard expectant
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mothers of sons who are now quite fearful after
5:13
watching this show that their sons will turn
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out like the character on adolescence. So it
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is in honor of Mother's Day. Very appropriate.
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We will talk about this show, which really dives
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into family dysfunction and the worst fears of
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parents could possibly have. The worst fears
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in that as the show sketches, if you let your
5:45
child go on the internet, he will become... a
5:49
murderer. That is pretty much the message of
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this program. Now, for those of you who haven't
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seen it, I think we have to call it the gimmick
5:57
of adolescence. It's four episodes and each episode
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is shot in a single take, which a lot of people
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talk about with this show that technically it
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is so impressive. But of course, there are some
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problems with this. And one of them is we don't
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always see the same characters. For example,
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the young boy, Jamie Miller, who is the adolescent
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of the title. We only see him in, what, two of
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the four episodes, each of which focuses on a
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particular component of this case against him
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for murder. Right. And again, people have been
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really talking about the technical proficiency,
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how impressive it is. But to me, this was just
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one of the many things that, I hate to say it,
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Lauren, made this one of the worst shows I have
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ever seen. Oh, no. I don't know if I'd go that
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far. I do feel like the single shot Reliance
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or the single -shot format Detracted from a kind
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of character development that was necessary in
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this show and I knew very little about Jamie
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in the episodes that he was in and even less
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about Jamie in the episodes that he was not in
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and There are law and order perps and vix that
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I feel like I know better than Jamie because
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he was so isolated in many parts of this show.
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including, I would say, law and order episodes
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about child murderers. Because, of course, that
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has been a favorite of the law and order universe.
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Teenagers who kill, young boys and girls who
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kill. And who kill their classmates. And who
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kill their classmates. Certainly. We've had school
7:45
shooting episodes of law and order. We've had
7:48
stalkers, young women who hate their stepmothers,
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right? All sorts of things. And it is interesting
7:54
that we feel like we know those characters and
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basically a 50 minute long procedural than this
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four episode Netflix series that got such accolades.
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And one of the things I just wanted to point
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out before we do get a little bit more into adolescence
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is. For our viewers who maybe have never seen
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this film, Alfred Hitchcock's Rope was really
8:18
notable at the time because it also depended
8:21
upon really long takes. Now, in the case of Rope,
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they were 10 minute long takes. And so Hitchcock
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had to do all these clever technical things,
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again, to have the smooth flow. And one of the
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reasons why Rope worked so well with a kind of
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same thing as Adolescents is that it was set
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just in three hours, basically, a party. a single
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apartment over just a few hours. What is unfortunate
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about adolescence and our gimmick of the big
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long takes is that we have, what, 18 months,
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right? There's a really long passage of time.
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And four different settings. And four different
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settings with, again, characters that sometimes
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we see, characters who go away and we never see
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them again. And so, as Lauren said, it really
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does... cripple this question of narrative and
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character development which is supposed to be
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so incredibly important in this show in terms
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of this big question why does this 13 year old
9:16
boy become a killer but because we have no sense
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of characterization we don't know except for
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the big kind of monster under the bed the internet
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the internet and incel culture which is alluded
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to alluded to but not explained in any detail
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i also wonder if the question is actually why
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does he kill his classroom and not what is the
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impact of technology and basically leaving your
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kid alone in the room with the computer on. I
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don't know if the question is, why did he murder
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this girl? Because the series does nothing to
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try to answer it. Nothing at all. But that is
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the thing. I think the series... thinks that
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it has asked and answered that question. And
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all of the attention that it has gotten because
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of this supposed takedown of the Manosphere,
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of the men's rights movement, of misogyny, it
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is simply absent. in the show I think we have
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what when you get right down to it maybe two
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or three references to it there is in fact never
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any actual proof or indication that this boy
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has been on these sites no he is accused of doing
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so he is called an incel sorry spoiler alert
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by the young woman that he kills but we actually
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don't know that he has visited any of these sites
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we don't know that he's an incel later of course
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the parents are talking about the amount of time
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that he has spent on the internet. We have a
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worker at a store who says something to the father,
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like he's kind of one of us. But even then, that
10:58
in itself is not proof, right, that this boy
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Jamie has been spending time in the Manosphere?
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No. The only thing that we know is that Jamie
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has been on the computer, Jamie has pictures
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of hot women that he looks at and puts on his
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Instagram account and that Jamie at different
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points has felt belittled by the victim. And
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he is an outsider in his school and he and his
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friends who we don't get to know very well at
11:35
all, but that he and his friend group are not
11:39
part of the in -crowd, so to speak. Yes, which
11:42
is also the case of the police detective's son.
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Right. Whom we also meet, even though he's a
11:49
slightly older boy. But he also is bullied. He
11:53
also is not in the inn crowd. Of course, with
11:56
no suggestion that he would turn to violence.
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So again, we don't know why Jamie has chosen
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to do so. Right. Right. And the different episodes,
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the different settings. do not necessarily add
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any kind of texture to building either the suspense
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or giving more additional evidence as to why
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Jamie committed these murders. The show, murder,
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the show seems to be more interested in the interior
12:33
monologues that are going on, particularly in
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the episode with Jamie and the psychiatrist,
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where she starts to ask him all kinds of questions
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about his father, grandfather, attitudes towards
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women in general, sexual activities, and things
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that we wonder where they are going, or at least
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I wondered where they were going. Can I actually,
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I need to go off on a little rant here. Go ahead.
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Not to actually sound like an angry protagonist
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myself. The episode to me with the psychiatrist,
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which is the third episode of the series, to
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me, it was absolutely disturbing and maddening.
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And in a sense, I almost felt as if that episode
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could have been written by a men's rights activist.
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And the reason why I say that is because when
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we first encounter this psychiatrist, she is
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bringing Jamie... treats, marshmallows to put
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in his cocoa, she is buying him a cocoa, the
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first part of their conversation, it is very...
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teasing we might say it's even intimate in the
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sense that she knows he likes marshmallows in
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his cocoa right the sense of that she is taking
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care of him this almost in a sense kind of i
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don't want to say flirtatious because that sounds
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creepy and weird but almost this again it's a
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building of trust it's a building of trust or
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an attempted building of trust that is going
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to turn that is but the reason why it turns.
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It's not just that it's not clear. It's just
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that she herself, right? She begins the conversation
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again in this very intimate, friendly, sort of,
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you can depend upon me emotionally way. I understand
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you. But by the time we get to the end of the
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conversation, she has frozen him out. She basically
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says, my work here is done. I have nothing more
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to say to you. I'm just here as part of a job.
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Uh, I'm leaving now. You are never going to see
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me again. This is it. Have a nice life or whatever
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while By that point, he is in the position of
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saying, wait, wait, I want more from you. I need
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something more from you. I want to talk to you
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more. And so to me, that is absolute, that character,
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and please, I'm going to continue my rant. That
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character is the absolute stereotype of a woman
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according to a men's rights activist. That is
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she begins with kind of the teasing, the gifts,
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the flirting. She then reacts emotionally to
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his own emotions. That is, even though she's
15:08
a forensic psychiatrist who should be used to
15:10
dealing with criminals, she can't stand to hear
15:11
the word fuck. She freaks out. She needs a moment.
15:14
She starts to cry. She basically can't handle...
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Even the anger. She cannot handle his anger.
15:21
She cannot handle his anger. Even again, the
15:24
swiping thing of Coco off the table, which is,
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I hate to say, but not ideal, but in the great
15:30
annals of anger, it is benign. So we are shown
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her. She is reacting emotionally in her job.
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She is crying. Again, she can't handle this.
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And again, by the end, she has frozen him out.
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And I will repeat, that entire arc to me, that
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is the negative stereotype of a woman, according
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to, again, a men's rights activist. They come
15:53
on strong, they want you to think that they're
15:54
on your side, they can't handle emotions, they
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can't handle your emotions, and they will freeze
16:00
you out, abandon you, and ghost you. That is
16:02
basically what we see from that psychiatrist.
16:04
And again, I was absolutely dumbfounded watching
16:06
that, because I was like, this is exactly, again,
16:10
that stereotype. And this is where my rant is
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almost over. I promise, I promise, this is where
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The gimmick really did a disservice because I
16:19
was thinking, what if we had cuts between his
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meetings with the male psychiatrist that we also
16:26
know has been speaking to him and her? Is it
16:29
the case that he's only angry with her because
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she is a woman? Again, what kind of response?
16:34
What kind of nuance? What else would we have
16:36
learned about Jamie and his motivations if we
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had seen both of those psychiatrists? investigations
16:46
with the other boys with the more kind of scenic
16:52
or motivational reasons behind the murder or
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what was happening in this group of boys in the
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days before, things like that, that would have
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set the table for the context of his community
17:06
and his tribe. And yeah, sure, if he feels hatred
17:12
or if he feels bottled up or if he feels anger
17:15
and he's putting it out there, at least we would
17:18
get a broader context for that rather than this
17:21
conversation between this incredibly manipulative
17:25
psychiatrist and then this increasingly angry
17:29
Jamie. And that also in terms of context, we
17:33
can also include his father in that, right? Because
17:36
the psychiatrist is obviously, as you said before,
17:39
she is sort of shopping for these family dynamics
17:42
of anger. But we don't... And we're told in the
17:47
last episode, we're told by the mother, Manda,
17:51
that her husband, Eddie, that he does have a
17:53
temper. We see it in some ways, right? In some
17:57
ways we don't. But we see a very caring, very
18:01
committed father. Yes. Throughout yes, and even
18:06
if he has anger or even if obviously this this
18:10
Incident this terrible tragedy has torn the family
18:13
apart and he's angry We see a caring provider
18:17
and a caring doting father for both of his children
18:22
Yes, and someone who wants to be part of the
18:24
investigation and somebody who's very very protective
18:27
of his son when all these kinds of questions
18:30
and interrogations occur. So we don't get any
18:33
sense that the father has acted inappropriately
18:36
or has not modeled behavior that is... is a good
18:41
one. Well, and we're also told in addition to
18:43
that that Eddie, the father, has explicitly and
18:48
intentionally broken the cycle of violence, that
18:51
he was beaten by his own father. He vowed never
18:54
to do that with his children. And he has we're
18:57
told explicitly that he has kept that vow. He
18:59
has he has never raised a hand against his children.
19:01
As you say, he has been a nurturing parent to
19:04
both of them, including his daughter. Right.
19:06
There's no sense of favoritism. The only kind
19:09
of shade. Right. that we are given, and it's
19:11
pretty weak sauce, is the idea that he wanted
19:14
his son to be talented at sports and was embarrassed
19:18
when his son was bad at sports. That's it. That's
19:22
it. But nothing that would lead us to believe
19:24
that the son was neglected or that the son was
19:27
raised, again, as one of the law and order episodes,
19:31
is to be a man and go out and hunt. Be aggressive.
19:35
And kill animals. And that led to a school shooting.
19:38
That was one law and order episode where the
19:41
father actually was put on trial for the crimes
19:44
of the son. I remember that one, yes. And there's
19:47
no indication that this is going on in adolescence?
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None. And certainly that was one, you brought
19:54
up before the idea that expectant mothers are
19:56
worried about this, right? And of course, this
19:59
is something that is taken on in the final episode.
20:02
How is it that they ended up with a daughter
20:04
who is so kind and understanding, and then a
20:08
son who ends up being a murderer? And again,
20:09
there's no clear answer. But I do think that
20:13
with the father, as with so many things with
20:15
Jamie, these normal emotions are pathologized
20:18
in the show. And you brought up before the question
20:21
of Jamie putting pictures of women in bikinis
20:24
or whatever on his Instagram account. And certainly
20:26
that is something that is treated with great
20:29
suspicion in the show. The idea also that, yes,
20:33
any degree of anger on the part of him or his
20:36
father, that that's pathologized as perhaps something
20:39
absolutely terrible that has eventually led to
20:43
this terrible crime being committed. And it is
20:46
absolutely impossible, I think, to get a sense
20:49
from the show of healthy masculinity. The only
20:54
possible model for that is the initial detective,
20:58
the one whose son is also being bullied at the
21:00
school. But even then, he's the one who's saying,
21:04
oh, well, you're putting beautiful women on your
21:06
Instagram, and tell us about that, Jamie, as
21:10
if there's something wrong with it. Which is
21:11
very different to reference another show than
21:13
The Pit, which has a character that comes into
21:19
the initial... series premiere, and we see him
21:24
throughout, or at least he weaves in and out
21:27
of the show, but who is potentially someone who
21:30
could commit murder, who has made a list of girls
21:34
he is very, very angry with, and there's even
21:39
the question later of whether he has committed
21:41
this horrific mass shooting at a music festival,
21:45
and it turns out not to be him. But there is
21:49
a buildup of both a situation at home, the death
21:54
of his father, and other conditions in this character
21:58
in the pit that we don't see in adolescent. Adolescence
22:02
is really showing us a pretty functioning family,
22:06
at least before this tragedy happens. where the
22:11
parents support the kids and where the kids,
22:14
more or less, carry out what are normal teenage
22:20
or preteen sexual curiosities on behaviors. And
22:28
that's why I absolutely think that... The fact
22:30
that the show does not start until the aftermath
22:33
is a huge disservice. And certainly you and I,
22:36
again, are both huge fans of law and order. But
22:39
the compression of narrative that happens in
22:41
law and order is just so smart and so useful.
22:47
I think that this is such an example of where
22:50
the aftermath is useless to us without knowing
22:54
what, because one of the most obvious questions,
22:57
if Jamie is supposed to be one of our angry young
22:59
men, were there any indications before that?
23:03
Did he get in fights at school? Was he hurting
23:05
cats? All of these, was he doing self harm? All
23:09
of these different things. But there are also...
23:11
unlike Law and Order, no red herrings either,
23:14
because the show takes place at the point when
23:17
they are certain it is Jamie, and they have evidence
23:19
that it is Jamie, and there are no other suspects.
23:23
And the other suspects provide context, again,
23:27
of... Who else could have had beef with this
23:29
girl or were there other boys that felt rejected
23:33
or? Were there other things happening in the
23:36
school that would have led to violence and we
23:39
don't know any of that We don't and then when
23:43
we do have an episode in the school It was also
23:46
very difficult to tell what what the show was
23:49
saying about that because of course we have a
23:51
bully Right, this bully Fredo who keeps kind
23:54
of reappearing. He actually might be in the show
23:56
more than Jamie is. I'm joking about that. But
23:59
and that's the thing that he kind of gets off
24:03
sort of scot -free in that he is very clearly
24:06
bullying other kids. He's doing this terrible
24:08
thing to the family itself. And it's kind of
24:12
unclear what the take what take the show has
24:14
on that. And so it's kind of garden, run -of
24:18
-the -mill bullying and And also with the fact
24:21
that the girl is Katie, the victim, that she
24:24
is a bully. And so does that lead us to some
24:27
indictment of girls? The show, again, is not
24:30
interested in that at all. No, the show is interested
24:33
in a very singular narrative about Internet culture,
24:39
the Manosphere, incel culture, and the kinds
24:44
of traps that nice young boys can fall into.
24:50
With, again, zero actual evidence presented in
24:54
the show that Jamie himself has fallen into that
24:57
trap. Correct. Correct. Which is actually really
25:01
surprising to me. And for all we know, Jamie
25:03
may have a mental illness. He may have some other
25:07
reason why he committed this crime. But we don't
25:10
know. But we don't know. We don't know. And I
25:12
think we're also really not supposed to care.
25:15
I agree. I agree. But I will just repeat myself.
25:18
I expected the Manosphere to be an overwhelming,
25:22
kind of looming shadow on the entire through
25:26
line of this episode. And it simply wasn't. And
25:29
I find that to be such a mystery. And if they
25:32
do do a second season, perhaps we'll get more
25:34
of that, more of this explanation. If they stick
25:36
to the gimmick, which I hope they won't, then
25:38
I don't really have any faith in that. But I
25:41
guess the last question before we move on is...
25:44
How do we judge him as an angry young man? It's
25:49
a good question. And again, one thing I would
25:52
say is that because this series is not ripped
25:57
from the headlines, it does itself a disservice.
26:02
by not investigating the causes of anger in young
26:06
men. I agree. And we have so much dialogue about
26:11
school shooters, about mental health concerns,
26:15
about boys not showing up to class, of course,
26:18
about internet culture. There is a wealth of
26:20
information to dive into. And it isn't examined
26:26
in any full sense. And I will go back. to my
26:31
hobby horse that it is also because of the gimmick,
26:34
right? If we have 10 minutes of people riding
26:37
in silence in a car, that is 10 minutes where
26:39
we are not getting that narrative foundation,
26:43
those reasons, that sort of fuller sense of Jamie
26:46
and everyone else as a character. Right, right.
26:50
Boy, those episodes are a real downer though.
26:52
They are. So let's talk about something more
26:54
affirming. It's hard to watch and... The difficult
26:58
thing about this show, like Anorah, if we go
27:01
back to our first episode of History Harpies,
27:06
is this is a universally praised series. And
27:10
so on the one hand, it's difficult to tell somebody,
27:13
I wouldn't necessarily watch it because it is
27:17
universally praised and we want to know why people
27:20
appreciate the things they appreciate. But on
27:23
the other hand, it is very frustrating to see
27:25
something universally praised that is so superficial.
27:31
And in both cases, I think it's fair to say that
27:34
so much of the praise came from not what was
27:38
actually included in them, but because they were
27:40
sending messages that people approved of. Sex
27:43
work is wonderful and positive, and we need to
27:47
address the manosphere. The fact that neither
27:49
of the actual products really addressed either
27:53
of these things in any profound way doesn't really
27:55
seem to make a difference. Right, right, right.
27:58
Okay, so let's move on to some earlier films
28:04
that take on angry young men and perhaps address
28:07
them in a sense that is more satisfying to us.
28:11
Maybe or maybe not and with perhaps more affirming
28:14
endings, which I admit I still want to see in
28:17
my art Okay, most of the time okay, so We decided
28:22
to talk about the film eight mile which comes
28:25
out in 2002 Starring an M &M at the prime of
28:30
his career prime as a musician. This is his first
28:34
acting uh foray his debut and his last and his
28:39
last directed by curtis hansen also at the pinnacle
28:43
of his career so we decided to think about anger
28:48
and young men and also themes of poverty and
28:53
themes of frustration and themes of race that
28:57
are running throughout this film so this is as
29:02
people may know this is very much a film about
29:05
Eminem's own life and ripped from the headlines
29:08
in that sense. And in effect, he is playing himself,
29:12
the character of Jimmy, who is known as Rabbit
29:15
or Bunny Rabbit or B -Rabbit, an aspiring rapper
29:18
in Detroit who participates in rap battles and
29:22
whose struggle in a real immediate sense is that
29:25
he chokes when he is involved in these rap battles.
29:28
He lives with his mother, a really fantastic
29:31
Kim Basinger. and younger sister in a trailer
29:36
park, actually pretty terrible looking trailer
29:38
park, I have to say, and who is trying to get
29:41
this career going while he also has a regular
29:43
full -time factory job. Right. And so the narration
29:50
is this point of choking through him discovering
29:56
himself as a rapper, as a friend, as... maybe
30:02
a boyfriend, but also as somebody who can protect
30:05
his family, who can be there for his mother and
30:07
his little sister, and it can prove to himself
30:10
that he can hang with the best of them at this
30:14
place called The Shelter, which is where these
30:17
rap battles occur on a weekly basis. And that
30:22
actually a tiny detail, but I think one pointing
30:23
out is that the entirety of the movie basically
30:26
takes place in about a week. Right. Where we
30:29
have this beginning of him being embarrassed
30:32
by failing at a rap battle. He meets a young
30:34
woman called Alex, played by Brittany Murphy,
30:37
RIP. It feels like everyone in our episodes is
30:41
no longer with us. Except for Meg Ryan, who is,
30:44
we are pleased, who is still with us. And so
30:47
then we have a kind of climax at the end of another
30:50
rap battle, which, and I read, and I think this
30:52
is really true, The ending rap battle is pretty
30:55
much staged as kind of like a championship football
30:58
game, right? There's sense very much of victory
31:00
and triumph. It is an homage to Rocky. And this
31:03
is why I think that Mr. T, who appears in Rocky
31:07
III as Clubber Lang, should have had a cameo
31:11
in 8 Mile. It is very much a Rocky moment. And
31:15
especially when... B -Rabbit and what is his
31:20
name? T -Doc or whatever. Oh, Papa Doc. Papa
31:23
Doc. The guy who he's battling against at the
31:26
end are staring at each other and they're sweaty.
31:28
Face to face. And they're in tank tops and it
31:31
really does conjure images from the Rocky series.
31:35
And so again, I thought about it and I... also
31:39
wondered if Eminem was going to then run around
31:42
Detroit, find himself in Philadelphia, on the
31:47
steps of some Detroit adjacent art museum, which
31:50
doesn't happen. But nonetheless, it is very much
31:53
a sports metaphor, a dueling metaphor of these
31:58
two kind of towering individuals that are trying
32:02
to dominate their And very much the sense that
32:06
the next step is this incredible success and
32:09
stardom. Right. And this is exactly the point
32:11
that, that even though this is not a rags to
32:14
riches film in any way, the rags are definitely
32:16
there, not so much the riches, but, but this
32:18
is the idea, right? That he has this very concrete
32:21
idea about his future as a, as a rapper, that
32:24
he wants to be a recording artist, that he wants
32:26
to be a star. And we very much are left with
32:29
this sense that that is his future. By the way,
32:32
his best friend is actually named future in the
32:34
film, played by McIver. He will work harder.
32:37
He will work harder at the factory. He's got.
32:38
more shifts. He might get more studio time. There's
32:41
a plan. There's a plan. There is a plan. And
32:43
now he has this kind of boost of confidence.
32:46
And obviously something else that is so important
32:49
here. So his anger comes from the fact that his
32:53
mother is drunk, who doesn't work. He is obviously
32:57
living in this family of poverty. There's no
32:59
father, not even one who is mentioned, other
33:02
than the fact that he is a junior. And so he
33:05
doesn't have a father. The partner, if we can
33:09
use that word, of his mother is someone who went
33:10
to high school with him. Again, Michael Shannon,
33:13
which is such a surprise. That had not even registered.
33:16
and but he also has to fight his way through
33:19
everything very literally he has to fight his
33:23
mother's boyfriend he has to fight against rival
33:27
the rival group free world right the rival rappers
33:30
rappers slash gang free world he has to fight
33:34
at work and he has to verbally duel even at a
33:39
food truck yes on lunch break every every moment
33:42
of rabbit's existence is one of conflict. And
33:48
except perhaps for the few scenes with Brittany
33:51
Murphy, which are encouraging and flirtatious
33:55
and calmer, but the anger is real and you can
33:58
also see the real volatility in Eminem as he
34:01
can bust out at any minute. even when the accusations
34:06
are unfounded, even when his thoughts don't necessarily
34:09
have any real grounding in reality, but he is
34:13
a... he's simmering beneath the surface, even
34:17
when he's not punching people out. And even when
34:20
he is with his friends, right? And very much
34:23
we have this kind of chosen family sense, right?
34:25
That he has these four very, very close friends
34:27
or five. And of course, the other component here
34:30
that is so important in the film and certainly
34:33
in Eminem's own career is that he is the minority,
34:36
right? That he is a white rapper. almost all
34:39
of his friends are African -American, he is in
34:41
these African -American spaces, and that this
34:43
is something else that is brought up to him regularly.
34:47
And in the verbal dueling, the substance of most
34:53
of the rapping is about him being white. Him
34:58
being an Elvis, him being vanilla ice, inauthentic,
35:03
etc. And white trash, basically. So, he has to
35:08
constantly challenge these expectations of what
35:12
rappers should be, what rappers should look like,
35:17
and the kinds of backgrounds that they necessarily
35:20
should come from, which is an irony at the end
35:23
when, what's his name again? T -Doc? Popadoc.
35:26
Popadoc. It's, yeah. After the dictator of Haiti,
35:29
Popadoc. Right. Duvalier. Right. Is revealed
35:32
to be a private school graduate. Eminem has more
35:38
street cred at the end than Papadoc. But on the
35:41
other hand, he knows that throughout his career
35:44
in this genre and in this industry, of course,
35:47
based on real life, he will have to continually
35:50
deal with the charges of his own. imposter. And
35:55
that he is an outsider all the time, right? An
35:58
imposter and an outsider. And so we have, by
36:01
the way, Papadoc, of course, is played by Anthony
36:03
Mackay, right? Who is now Captain America. And
36:06
has played Martin Luther King, has played, I
36:10
believe, Tupac Shakur. Oh, okay. has been in
36:15
many, many other things. Many things. Many things.
36:17
And this is one of the first things that he was
36:18
in. And he actually looks like the same age.
36:21
He really does. I'm not kidding. Anthony Mackie
36:24
does not age. And that was something when I was
36:28
going back to... I think about the characters
36:31
in this film. I really saw the photos and was
36:34
astonished at how similar he looks to when this
36:38
film came out. Remarkable. Yeah, it is remarkable.
36:40
And so we have these really clearly identifiable
36:44
sources for his anger. Right. The poverty, the
36:48
fact that he is an outsider, that he is criticized
36:52
for being an outsider, that he has this terrible
36:54
relationship with his mother, that his mother
36:56
is basically useless until she wins money at
36:59
bingo. Bingo. And who wins $3 ,200 at bingo in
37:04
Trailer Park, 8 Mile? That was... That was curious
37:07
to me. And I was also wondering how many months
37:09
of rent that was since she was behind rent. How
37:12
many months? And now she's not going to be evicted
37:13
because she won the bingo money. Yeah, I was
37:15
like, that's not a long term plan for success.
37:19
I also wondered how she met Michael Shannon at
37:23
bingo if he is the same age as Eminem or around
37:27
the same age went to high school with Eminem
37:29
and his crew and what that whole situation looks
37:34
like of the people who graduated. I guess graduated,
37:37
we don't know, attended this high school, and
37:40
now all kind of hang out and drive around and
37:46
stir up trouble. Start shit. Or don't. Get into
37:49
fights. Right, right. Well, something else that
37:52
I... I mean, I have to say, I... identify strongly
37:55
with Eminem. And as a working, as a working class,
37:58
no, as a working class person, certainly as a
38:01
working class person, and not as a rapper, not
38:03
as a rapper, that's for sure. But as a working
38:05
class person from Maine, obviously, not Detroit,
38:08
but nevertheless, and, you know, Maine full of
38:11
trailer parks as, you know, as it is. And I think
38:14
that one of the things I really, really like
38:17
about this movie is that, of course, it's so
38:18
unusual in films to see people working in factories,
38:23
right? Very rare, unless it's like Norma Rae.
38:27
And even more rare to see them having sex in
38:28
factories. That seemed to me to be a little,
38:31
I don't know, but then also we see him, someone
38:35
who's doing shift work. Shift work. And I have
38:37
to say, to me, the one thing that it really bothers
38:40
me in this film, and it shouldn't, but when he's
38:42
so excited and happy, right, to get these extra
38:44
shifts, finally, you finally get the trust of
38:47
his supervisor to get these extra shifts. Immediately
38:50
he's like, well, I'm going to be gone for a couple
38:51
of hours and gets, you know, Paul, the other
38:53
character to cover for him. Correct me if I'm
38:54
wrong, but doesn't the same dynamic happen in
38:57
flash dance where she is the welder, but then
39:01
she has to go and do the dance and do the final
39:04
dance. And that in some way takes away from her
39:08
shift work as a welder. Listeners, please comment
39:11
if I'm wrong. No recollection. But I think this
39:14
kind of manual labor shift work, clocking in
39:18
and out, getting overtime, and then immediately
39:22
having an opportunity to perform creatively where
39:25
someone has to cover for you is kind of a filmic
39:28
trope. Fair point. But I just kept thinking,
39:31
what's going to happen if the supervisor comes
39:33
back and says, Where's Jimmy? And Paul says,
39:36
well, he went to go do his rap battle. But he
39:38
got the other character, the gay character to
39:41
cover for him. Nevertheless. Do we know the name
39:43
of this gay character? Paul. Paul. Paul. Paul.
39:46
Paul. Nevertheless, again, I just kept imagining.
39:48
The supervisor comes up to Paul and says, where's
39:50
Jimmy? And he's like, well, he went off. He'll
39:51
be back later. But of course, but that's the
39:53
thing is I love the fact that the film ends with
39:55
him going back to work. I think that's such a
39:57
fantastic detail. And he constantly makes the
40:00
point to his mother that she does not work. Yes.
40:03
He has to get to work. He doesn't want to be
40:04
late to work and that she does not work. And
40:06
there are various modes of transportation that
40:08
are not reliable. The car she gives him is a
40:13
complete piece of shit and doesn't work. It's
40:16
like a Chevelle from 1975 or something. The bus
40:19
they take even stops at the wrong places or it's
40:23
hard to get to. And then we see that some of
40:25
the cars that his friends are driving, which
40:27
look like they're going to break down on the
40:29
side of the road. Yes. And that's really fantastic.
40:31
I think that kind of reality. Yes. But that actually
40:35
does come back. obviously to the question of
40:37
class. Right. And you mentioned that the sort
40:40
of secret about Papa Doc is that he went to Cranbrook,
40:45
a very fancy private school in the Detroit suburbs,
40:49
and that his name is Clarence, right? That he
40:52
has a stable family life. Clarence and his parents.
40:55
Clarence and his parents. They have a really
40:58
good marriage. Right. And that this, of course,
41:01
absolutely makes Papa Doc the imposter, right?
41:04
Even though he is one of the curious things to
41:06
me is, so he's the leader of this kind of free
41:09
world gang. One wonders how he got the cred to
41:13
be the leader of the free world as a private
41:16
school private jet. I was so curious about this
41:19
because it's obvious that people know that he
41:23
is Clarence who went to Cranbrook and and obviously
41:27
not on like financial aid or something, right?
41:29
It's not like he's a scholarship kid from downtown
41:31
Detroit. No, it's not like they poached him as
41:34
a football star to come and play and that sort
41:38
of thing. He is from that upper middle class
41:40
world, obviously. And yes, so I was thinking
41:42
how, yes, how do you get the street cred? But
41:45
this sense that then we've reversed things, right?
41:47
Because then he becomes the outsider and that
41:49
this is the brilliance of that rap battle. that
41:52
Eminem, Jimmy, Rabbit, whatever, that he is able
41:55
to turn Papa Doc into the outsider. And he's
41:58
the person who belongs by doing the whole 313,
42:00
we're all from Detroit, right? And that this
42:02
is so important. I'm the real rep. I'm the real
42:04
rep. But one wonders whether that's just, again,
42:08
another... plot gimmick so that Eminem can win
42:12
the battle in the end because he's like, he goes
42:14
first, of course, in the duel and he puts forward
42:17
all of the accusations that Papadoc would have
42:20
thrown at him. And then he says, oh, and by the
42:22
way, you're inauthentic and I'm the real thing.
42:26
And again, it raises all kinds of questions again
42:28
about the rise of Papadoc in this, you know,
42:32
in the real thing, in the free world street gang.
42:35
But it's very satisfying. It is very satisfying.
42:38
To see Eminem do his thing and have this really
42:43
interesting prolific rap about what it means
42:47
to be working class and white trash and yeah,
42:51
my mom's a drunk and yeah, my girlfriend is a
42:55
slut and all these other things. I have a stupid
42:58
friend who shot himself. And I have a straight
43:00
cheddar. Cheddar Bob. Cheddar Bob. Who shot himself.
43:04
But nonetheless, I'm here. I'm here and I'm gonna
43:08
fight. And to me, that's where when we think
43:12
about angry, angry young men or angry men, it
43:16
pulls from that rocky mojo of like digging deep,
43:24
staying strong. Don't give up. Staying alive.
43:27
Don't give up. And yeah, coming from nothing
43:31
and then... realizing that, and I think this
43:35
is where the ending is so germane is that it
43:37
isn't, we don't see him signing some huge record
43:40
deal, but we see him hanging in there. going
43:44
back to work and presumably go to work tomorrow,
43:47
right? He'll get his demo together, you know?
43:49
But that's where we really have this connection,
43:51
don't you think, between the anger and the class,
43:55
because it absolutely is positioned. Not that
43:58
anger is terrific, right? It's not that the movie
44:00
is glorifying anger, but anger is a necessary
44:04
component in his success. It is a necessary component,
44:08
and obviously Eminem says this in real life,
44:10
right? Anger is a necessary component in getting
44:12
yourself out of that shitty situation, right?
44:15
That if Jimmy is... passive and not getting angry,
44:21
not even potentially getting into fights. Then
44:24
he is someone who is always going to choke, who
44:26
is always going to be bullied, who is always
44:30
going to be made to feel like an outsider. And
44:32
the anger, that's what I think is, in a sense,
44:34
so remarkable about the film. The anger is shown,
44:37
unlike adolescence, right? It is shown as being
44:40
something that is this kind of rocket fuel for
44:43
him. It is. In a positive way. It is. But also,
44:45
just getting to... brewing anger. His anger is
44:50
directed towards people that we know why he hates
44:54
them. And when there's gun violence, we know
44:58
why people are shooting at one another. And it
45:00
isn't this mystery, this kind of cauldron of
45:06
suppressed feelings that we don't ever come to
45:09
understand. It is anger at people for, whether
45:13
we agree or don't agree, reasons that are legitimate
45:16
to them. And people who have wronged them, people
45:19
who are holding a gun at their head, people who
45:22
are in their face, his mother's boyfriend who
45:26
is, you know, unkind to her and... putting his
45:31
sister in all kinds of terrible situations. So
45:35
we understand we understand the anger. We understand.
45:38
Yes. And I think that one of the things I was
45:41
really thinking about and then maybe we should
45:43
start talking about Blackboard Jungle is that
45:46
is it fair to say and we can't really tackle
45:48
this right now. But is it fair to say that Curtis
45:50
Hanson was absolutely one of the most important
45:54
and talented directors in terms of depicting
45:57
masculinity? Because I was also thinking about
46:00
Wonder Boys with Michael Douglas and Tobey Maguire,
46:04
which again is a wonderful depiction of a different
46:07
kind of masculinity, right? This university professor
46:09
and this young student who both have kind of
46:12
questions and choices about what it means to
46:14
be a man. And also, of course, L .A. Confidential,
46:17
which is one of the most and important films
46:19
about men and all of the other fantastic things
46:23
about it aside. And so I was thinking about that.
46:27
And obviously again, very, very different kinds
46:29
of men in different situations, right? Different
46:32
occupations, different moments and different
46:34
time periods. And different genres. And different
46:35
genres. All three of those films are different
46:37
genres. Very different, very different. And so
46:39
I was thinking about that and just how. Kim Basinger
46:42
is not in Wonder Boys, correct? She is not, she
46:44
is not. Frances McDormand is the female lead.
46:47
or sort of the older female, Katie Holmes being
46:50
the younger female lead of Wonder Boys. And,
46:53
but I was just thinking about that, you know,
46:55
what a rich sort of palette Curtis Hansen gave
46:58
us. And I was trying to think of like other films
47:00
that he's done. You know, I seriously think he
47:02
did the hand that rocks the cradle, which is
47:03
not the best depiction of masculinity. No, but
47:06
an excellent watch. But an excellent watch. Highly
47:10
recommend. And we should do a pod episode of
47:13
the nanny. This is the crazy nanny genre. The
47:18
crazy nanny. Let's table, like put that down,
47:21
write that down on the list. Put a pin in that
47:23
one. Okay. So we came away from, I will say about
47:28
8 Mile though. At the time that I saw it, which
47:31
I was in the theater, I don't actually think
47:32
I've watched it since it was in the theater.
47:34
And now I do think that our conversations about
47:39
race and class and masculinity, have gone in
47:43
a direction that make some of the dynamics of
47:46
8 Mile perhaps feel more dated to me. And especially
47:51
on the race issue, I think that, in part because
47:55
there was so much public conversation about Eminem,
47:57
I feel like those dynamics get tired after a
48:00
while. And that now we do accept a sort of racial
48:04
fluidity in rap and hip hop, or at least Eminem
48:08
maybe opened some of these doors. Well, and that's,
48:10
I think, really important. Do we only think that
48:13
in part because of Eminem's success in the first
48:15
place? Yeah. And that's a fair point. I just
48:18
think going back to it and having him accused
48:21
of all of these imposter syndrome, Elvis, et
48:24
cetera, and then to think about all of the artists
48:27
now who are part of the hip hop universe and
48:31
have all sorts of racial backgrounds. And we
48:34
wonder whether Eminem really did play this pioneering
48:38
role in opening doors for them. That's interesting
48:42
to think about. Yeah. And actually, speaking
48:44
of, again, racial diversity and angry young men.
48:48
Right. And opening doors. And opening doors.
48:49
Let's start talking about Blackboard Jungle,
48:52
a film from 1955 and many notable things about
48:58
Blackboard Jungle. One of the earliest films,
49:00
maybe the earliest American film with the whole
49:03
trope of idealistic teacher who goes into a tough
49:07
classroom. And another notable thing about Blackboard
49:10
Jungle, before we start breaking it down a little
49:12
bit, this is the first film to ever include rock
49:16
music. Rock and roll. Bill Haley in the comments,
49:19
rock around the clock, playing over the credits,
49:22
which must have blown so many minds in 1955.
49:28
And Lauren, do you want to tell us a little bit
49:29
about this film? Well, so this film, we've seen,
49:33
we've now seen many, many, many films. Many,
49:37
many. follow this storyline, which is idealistic
49:43
teacher goes into a rough and tumble classroom
49:47
and tries to educate them, reach them, share
49:51
their language and is met with multiple obstacles
49:55
and then finally either does or doesn't succeed
50:00
in doing so. We have, of course, dangerous mind.
50:03
We have the one with what's his name? Edward
50:07
James Olmos, that one. Edward James Olmos, what
50:10
was that one called? Was that Stand and Deliver?
50:12
Stand and Deliver. I was going to say Stand By
50:14
Me, but it's not Stand By Me. Right, we have
50:15
that one. We have Mr. Holland's Opus, which is
50:20
a little different, but nonetheless about lots
50:23
of teaching challenges. And we could probably...
50:26
Teachers with Nick Nolte and Jo Beth Williams.
50:29
Right. Or one with Morgan Freeman. Anyway, so
50:31
many. We could list many of these films, which
50:35
are inspirational and make us feel very happy
50:40
at the end when these young minds finally...
50:42
At least one are opened. Right. Finally click.
50:45
One thing also about that genre, which Blackboard
50:48
Jungle really starts, is that they tend to be
50:51
presented, which Blackboard Jungle does explicitly,
50:54
of we are trying to show you. people of America,
50:58
what is going on in these classrooms, right?
51:01
This very kind of journalistic, almost, you know,
51:03
uncovering what happens behind the doors of the
51:05
school room. You don't realize how bad it is.
51:07
You don't realize how bad it is. And here's how
51:09
bad it is. And here's how bad it is. And Blackboard
51:11
Jungle is representative of that. The young men
51:14
in the film who are in the classroom and that
51:17
the school that Glenn Ford, who plays the main
51:21
character, who is the teacher, Dadier, The school
51:26
that he goes to is a co -ed school, but he teaches
51:29
a classroom full of boys. Most of these boys
51:32
are in a street gang together, led by various
51:36
different characters, various different stereotypes,
51:40
and also it is racially diverse. And the sort
51:46
of leader of this class, class gang, so to speak,
51:51
is Sidney Poitier, who is Miller. Another Miller,
51:57
much like Jamie Miller in adolescence. Gregory
52:00
Miller here. Gregory Miller, but it's called
52:01
Miller the whole film, and is really the north
52:05
star of whether or not Dadier will sink or swim
52:09
in teaching these kids. Yes. And one of the things
52:14
I Blackboard Jungle to me is one of the best
52:17
examples of what in general we are thinking about
52:20
with our podcast, which is that it's a film from
52:22
nineteen fifty five. Yes. But we have certainly
52:25
an incredibly racially diverse cast. Right. That
52:29
the school is is racially diverse. The classroom
52:32
is racially diverse. We have African Americans.
52:34
We have Latinos. We have Asian boys. We have
52:39
again in this all male classroom, we have again,
52:43
all of these different kinds of kids together.
52:45
And one of the other things that is so striking
52:47
about it is that Dottier, as you say, he immediately
52:51
identifies Sidney Poitier's character as a natural
52:56
leader. But he also identifies him as someone
52:58
of... a high intellect. Yes, exactly. And there
53:01
are different levels of ability, of comprehension.
53:07
Even though these students are supposed to be
53:08
in the same grade, so to speak, it's clear that
53:11
some of them are further behind. Some of them
53:15
are further ahead in terms of their own interest
53:18
in school, but also their own capabilities. And
53:22
also something that comes up explicitly, their
53:24
facility with English. Right. This is something
53:26
else that very clearly comes up with one of the
53:28
Latino students. Right. And that this is one
53:31
of the things that I think is so surprising about
53:33
it is that these questions of race and ethnicity
53:36
are so at the forefront. They are. That Dottier
53:40
tries to teach the students a lesson about about
53:44
not using racial slurs. This then becomes weaponized
53:47
against him. By one of the white students. By
53:49
one of the white students where it is reported
53:51
to the principal that he has been using these
53:53
racial slurs. And of course we have this very
53:56
strong statement from the principal to Dottier
53:58
that, again, no prejudice will be accepted in
54:01
the classroom, that all the boys are equal regardless
54:03
of color or race or ethnicity. And again, that's
54:06
something else that I think a lot of people,
54:08
maybe a lot of, say, our students, a lot of younger
54:10
people wouldn't expect that a film from from
54:12
1955 would take that on so explicitly. And one
54:15
of the interesting things, again, historically
54:17
about that is there are many, many films that
54:20
came out during the World War II era and then
54:24
afterwards that were seen to be these message
54:26
melting pot movies where, yes, we're all different,
54:30
yes, we come from different backgrounds, but
54:32
we can learn to get along. And a lot of the animosity
54:35
in Blackboard Jungle, racial animosity, class
54:38
animosity, however we think about it, comes from
54:41
the students themselves, who are calling each
54:43
other these racial epithets, who are, the first
54:46
place they jump with their anger is on racial
54:50
slurs or, again, other insults that are racially
54:54
motivated. But there is, at the same time, also
54:56
the sense that in their diversity, they are a
55:00
collective body opposed to Dottier as the authority
55:03
figure. Yes. The insiders versus the outsider.
55:06
And in this case, the insiders are the students
55:09
who are also a street gang, and the outsiders
55:12
are authority figures. Yes. Of all kinds. Of
55:15
any kind. Of all kinds. And we also have this
55:18
teacher who, like Dottier, he's a new teacher.
55:20
Like Dottier, he is a World War II veteran, right?
55:23
Something that is said very explicitly. Right.
55:25
And who's a jazz aficionado. And again, he, as
55:29
well as Dottier, they are trying to find ways
55:31
to reach these students. He's a math teacher.
55:33
As opposed to the older generation. of the teachers
55:36
at the school who are basically like, you're
55:39
all barbarians. And we have a case where one
55:41
of the older, more cynical teachers, he is reprimanded
55:45
by the principal because he has slapped one of
55:47
the students. And so one of the other really
55:49
interesting dynamics is that we have not only
55:51
the anger, right, in the classroom, but also
55:54
these possibilities of violence, which does flower
55:57
come full out in this climactic scene near the
56:00
end. And there are multiple scenes of violence.
56:04
Dadier is beaten up. His colleague is... Almost
56:09
raped. In the school. Well, I was talking about
56:11
the guy with the jazz record. Oh, sorry, sorry,
56:13
sorry. And they're both beat up in the alley.
56:14
Yes, they're both beat up. His colleague is...
56:16
almost raped in the very beginning by one of
56:19
the students. And this sort of assault against
56:22
teachers and authority figures is something that
56:24
we see as an everyday occurrence at this school
56:27
and something that the teachers are warned about
56:29
by the students. And sort of the one character
56:32
says to Jadia, you know, you're in my classroom
56:35
now when he's outside of the school. Yeah, in
56:37
the street. And it's really telling. But again,
56:40
what's so interesting in comparison to something
56:42
like adolescence is to think about the anger
56:45
of these students and the manifestation of the
56:47
anger against concrete authority figures being
56:50
their teachers, not against one another in the
56:54
same way. Now they do get angry with one another
56:56
and they certainly insult one another, but we
56:59
don't get the sense that these students are going
57:02
to shoot one another in a sort of mass shooting
57:05
or that sort of thing. Or that they would have
57:09
stirring repressed anger and it would all of
57:12
a sudden blow up. Their anger is palpable, it's
57:16
real, and when they do express it towards one
57:18
another, it's about something very, very concrete.
57:21
Yes. And we don't really see severe rifts develop
57:25
among them until we have this climactic moment
57:28
where Dottier goes face to face with Artie West,
57:32
the absolute sort of bad apple who is causing
57:34
all of the trouble, including basically terrorizing
57:38
Dottier's pregnant wife in a way that... That
57:41
doesn't really... Accusing him of adultery. And
57:44
while she is again pregnant, she has had a miscarriage,
57:46
something else that is said very, very plainly,
57:49
that this is a fragile pregnancy for her. And
57:52
Artie West, again, he is just resolved on ruining
57:55
Dottie's life. Harassing his wife, which leads
57:58
her to go into early labor. And we don't even
58:01
know by the end of the film if their baby will
58:04
live. We do, actually. I hate to correct you
58:08
on this, but it comes at the very end and I think
58:11
one of the reasons why it's important that we
58:13
see that is not only because it contributes to
58:15
the happy ending, but also the sense that, again,
58:18
Dottier is now in the position of being a father,
58:21
right? And one of the tiny little things they
58:23
mention in this film that I think is so important
58:25
is when they're trying to talk, and you certainly
58:27
know about this more than I do, but when the
58:30
teachers are trying to sort of go for an explanation,
58:32
right? Why are these kids so violent? Why are
58:34
they so angry? And one of the explanations that
58:36
comes up is, well, when they were younger children,
58:39
their dads were away at World War II and their
58:41
moms were in factories. The moms were the Rosies.
58:43
Yes. And the dads were away. Absentee. Absentee.
58:46
And this is the explanation, right? That this
58:48
experience of World War II has basically created
58:50
this kind of poisoned generation. Again, regardless
58:53
of race and ethnicity, right? It's kind of understood
58:55
to be a shared experience, right? Whether that's
58:58
accurate or not. But that this is kind of the
59:01
kernel of their anger in addition to poverty
59:04
of living in what is clearly the Bronx based
59:07
upon the novel that the movie is based on. And
59:10
so we have some kind of glimmer of an explanation
59:13
for their anger, their hatred of authority. Right.
59:16
Right. And so again, I guess I miss that the
59:19
baby is going to live. I guess in some ways I
59:24
thought the ambiguity of the baby was left as
59:28
well. The wife's okay and I'm going to go and
59:31
I'm going to do my job and we're going to see
59:33
what happens. But yes, Dadier is going to be
59:35
a father. He's going to be the kind of a present
59:38
father that presumably these kids... Don't have.
59:42
And he's going to be a father figure to them.
59:45
And he is partnered with Miller in the sense
59:47
that, well, Miller is going to complete his education
59:51
and D 'Addier is going to complete his role as
59:55
a teacher. And that he's also someone who knows
59:58
how, as an English teacher, knows how to connect
1:00:01
to these students in unconventional ways, showing
1:00:04
them movies and showing them cartoons and...
1:00:08
Basically meeting them where they are, right?
1:00:10
But there's so much a thing about the Jack and
1:00:12
the Beanstalk cartoon that they watch, that he
1:00:14
is able to lead them into a conversation. that
1:00:18
is about their own experiences, right? So again,
1:00:20
he's not teaching them Shakespeare, right? He's
1:00:21
not doing this, but he in effect is saying, let's
1:00:24
talk. And the lesson of that, again, so kind
1:00:26
of interesting for 1955, the lesson when they
1:00:29
have this conversation is about, well, people
1:00:31
are different, right? When you go through the
1:00:33
world, you are going to be encountering so many
1:00:34
people who are different and don't make assumptions
1:00:36
about people because they are different. In addition
1:00:38
to sort of the moral questions about... He's
1:00:41
a Jack of Thieves. And so again, this idea that
1:00:44
he is reaching them where they are. But the other
1:00:47
way he's able to reach them is through the Christmas
1:00:49
pageants. Yes, you're right. And that he's able
1:00:51
to connect with them, again, where they are in
1:00:54
terms of Miller's singing group, in terms of
1:00:57
whatever other talents there may be. kids doing
1:01:01
things they enjoy and him being somebody who
1:01:04
can lead them and encourage them outside the
1:01:08
classroom. Extracurricular activities save the
1:01:11
day might be the theme of this film and that
1:01:14
he is able again to see parts of them that he
1:01:18
can't see in the classroom and so he is meeting
1:01:22
them on several different levels that it seems
1:01:25
like the other teachers are finally encouraged
1:01:29
to do by his leadership or by the impact that
1:01:33
he's having with these students. Yes, and we
1:01:36
very much have this kind of... dead poet society
1:01:39
moment, even though that's obviously a very different
1:01:41
kind of school and different kind of students,
1:01:43
but where the idea is that yes, he is inspiring,
1:01:47
right, these kind of fatigued, burnt out teachers
1:01:50
to adopt their own sort of more, not humane methods,
1:01:53
I wouldn't put it that way, right, but yes, the
1:01:55
same sense of like, we are going to try to reach
1:01:57
these students and understand them as people,
1:01:59
rather than just this mass of boys who have been
1:02:02
shoved into a classroom against their will. And
1:02:05
so we have then, we should probably move on to
1:02:07
our and our loves, but I wonder if, you know,
1:02:10
one of our takeaways here. is that is this connection
1:02:13
between our angry young men and fathers, right?
1:02:17
Because obviously this is a dynamic in adolescence,
1:02:19
even though as we talked about, that father is
1:02:21
depicted as being a pretty good father. That
1:02:23
father is the kind of father that the boys in
1:02:27
Blackboard Jungle should have had. Exactly. But
1:02:30
then, of course, we have this totally absent,
1:02:32
non -existent, you know, non -entity father in
1:02:34
Eight Mile. And here, too, we don't have any
1:02:37
present fathers at all, right? Except for Dottier
1:02:40
when he has his own child. but this idea that
1:02:42
these fathers have also been absent to some degree.
1:02:47
And so it's basically fathers are kind of getting
1:02:50
a lot of the blame, perhaps, for angry young
1:02:55
men. But it is also interesting, I think, to
1:02:57
this trajectory of angry young men who are angry
1:03:02
at authority figures, whether traditional authority
1:03:05
figures. teachers, police, that sort of thing,
1:03:10
to then the 2025 angry young men who are going
1:03:14
to kill their own classmates. It's an interesting
1:03:18
trajectory to think about. I agree. And that
1:03:21
the narrative shifts Not necessarily to completely
1:03:26
relegating juvenile delinquency to the bottom
1:03:28
of the barrel but to now bringing this Manosphere
1:03:32
and the questions about Mental health and the
1:03:37
internet and those sorts of things to the top.
1:03:40
Mm -hmm, and it is if it is interesting to think
1:03:43
about sort of different, let's see, the father
1:03:46
in adolescence being the father of some of our
1:03:48
other characters this week. It's also interesting
1:03:51
to think how does Blackboard Jungle look different
1:03:53
with the internet? And obviously we can't answer
1:03:56
that question, but for one thing, they maybe
1:03:59
would have heard of jazz before. Well, I was
1:04:02
thinking about what if these, again, the people
1:04:06
in 8 Mile had headphones because there's so much,
1:04:11
obviously the use of music, the idea of this
1:04:14
Spotify or those sorts of things and what it
1:04:17
would have done for them also in their own communications
1:04:20
and miscommunications. that there were a lot
1:04:24
of them. Although we do wonder whether Kim Basinger
1:04:27
would have won enough bingo money to pay for
1:04:31
her Verizon bill. It also makes me so nervous
1:04:34
when she is just waving around all the cash.
1:04:37
And again, I'm like, just go to the bank. Put
1:04:39
that in the bank right now before someone steals
1:04:41
it. Right, right. Okay, well we should probably
1:04:43
move on very quickly to our harps and our loves
1:04:47
for the week. Do you have a harp and or a love
1:04:51
this week, Lauren? This will probably be redundant
1:04:55
for those of you who listen to podcasts, but
1:04:57
I am loving Diana Ross at the Met Gala. The look
1:05:02
is just fantastic. The woman is 81 years old.
1:05:08
And again, like Anthony Mackie seems to have
1:05:13
zero aging going on. And she is the original
1:05:18
super fly, super fine. Taylor all the all the
1:05:22
things that that Met Gala was meant to embody
1:05:26
are in Diana Ross And when I saw that image of
1:05:29
her on the stairs and that amazing gown I with
1:05:33
his train with his train Looking as amazing as
1:05:37
she always does and my daughter of course said
1:05:40
who is I was just made very happy. So love you,
1:05:50
Diana Ross. Love to love you, baby. She really
1:05:53
did look amazing. And I think I will then add
1:05:55
just a love because how fantastic Zendaya looked.
1:05:59
And of course Zendaya's look was modeled on Diana
1:06:03
Ross in the film Mahogany from the early 70s.
1:06:07
And she just looked at me. Zendaya always looks
1:06:09
absolutely beautiful. Incredible. And her stylist
1:06:11
is just amazing. And I thought she looked gorgeous
1:06:14
and such an interesting little bookend, right?
1:06:16
To see Diana Ross looking beautiful at 81, looking
1:06:20
like her fabulous self. But then Zendaya, obviously
1:06:24
a much younger woman in a different sort of moment.
1:06:26
But with that homage to the sort of 1970s era
1:06:29
Diana Ross in her all white suit and the floppy
1:06:33
hat. And again, the nod to mahogany. I just thought
1:06:35
that was so brilliant. And she looked amazing.
1:06:38
She always looks beautiful. And I will say that
1:06:40
all of the commentary about the joyfulness of
1:06:43
the Met Gala is in a really interesting contrast
1:06:46
to this podcast. Again, with we think of 8 Mile
1:06:51
and its contribution to hip hop and black culture
1:06:54
and that the Met Gala is... moving on these themes
1:06:59
and moving on a lot of these early references,
1:07:02
none of which have to do with anger. That's true.
1:07:08
Unless it's the anger that people online express
1:07:11
about really bad outfits at the Met Gala. Perhaps
1:07:13
that is as close as we can. Or missing tables
1:07:16
or missing designers or people who didn't contribute
1:07:19
in the ways that... Maybe some of our listeners
1:07:22
would have liked them to not enough people dressed
1:07:25
by YSL or Gucci or other other brands But of
1:07:31
course, what is the big difference right is also
1:07:34
that question of class. We talked this week about
1:07:36
a lot of Poor people, basically lower working
1:07:41
class, lower class people. And that is not the
1:07:45
Med Gala, shall we say. That is not the Med Gala.
1:07:48
Unless it's simulated. Yes. Well, yes. And that's
1:07:52
a sore point on my part, but we can talk about
1:07:54
that some other time. Okay. Well, I think that's
1:07:56
all the time that we have. We do have some book
1:07:58
recommendations. Oh, I forgot about our book
1:08:00
recommendations. I forgot about the living baby
1:08:03
and you forgot about the book recommendations.
1:08:06
Okay, so to wrap it up, my book recommendation
1:08:09
for this week is actually a biography of... George
1:08:14
Wallace the one of these angriest politicians
1:08:18
around it's called the politics of rage written
1:08:22
by wonderful historian Dan Carter which really
1:08:25
gets into the heart of the anger of a lot of
1:08:29
working -class white men who felt racial antagonism
1:08:33
class antagonism and a kind of crystallizing
1:08:38
political conservatism that led them to embrace
1:08:42
and champion the the messaging of George Wallace,
1:08:46
which eventually went on to become co -opted
1:08:48
by Richard Nixon. And so again, this is The Politics
1:08:52
of Rage. It's a wonderful biography. And when
1:08:56
I think of anger, I think of George Wallace.
1:09:01
Who can disagree? Well, my book recommendation,
1:09:04
it's a very different kind of book. It's a book
1:09:06
called Boys Adrift by Dr. Leonard Sacks, as in
1:09:11
the saxophone, S -A -X. And this is a study of
1:09:14
why teenage boys, college -age boys, and older,
1:09:18
why it is that they, in effect, have become affected
1:09:21
by, say, ADHD, by video game use, and why they
1:09:27
have so much more trouble kind of adjusting to
1:09:30
life and, in effect, adulting, as the Zoomers
1:09:33
would say. And it's a really interesting book.
1:09:35
It was a little bit controversial in that one
1:09:37
of the things that he recommends is single -sex
1:09:39
education for boys as something that is really
1:09:41
helpful. in terms of building careers, healthy
1:09:45
self -esteem. And regardless of how one feels
1:09:48
about that, it's a really interesting read about
1:09:50
masculinity, about boys' anger, and about what
1:09:53
it even means to be a boy and a young man. So
1:09:55
that's my recommendation. Well, thanks. Well,
1:09:58
I think we've covered the theme of anger for
1:10:01
this episode. And if Christina and I are very
1:10:04
angry now, I think we'll have to go have a cocktail
1:10:06
and roll it back a little bit. But until next
1:10:11
week.