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The Mystery of Jesus · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. Hey, this week we go deep.
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We talk about the nature of Jesus and his deity versus his
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humanity, the Trinity, and what's up with that and how does
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that affect our everyday lives? And then we also get into John
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the Baptist and John, the author of the book of John.
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And what are they trying to accomplish in relationship with
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Jesus and how does it affect everyday life?
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This is what we talked about on this week's show.
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Let's dive right in. Red Couch Theology podcast here,
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and you're just now getting sound.
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Oh shoot, I forget. This was my fault 100%.
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And it's the most rudimentary issue as I just didn't even turn
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on our sound system. I forgot how to run a podcast.
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And we talked such. We actually solved world hunger,
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and she's calling me now. Yeah, I got it fixed.
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Thanks. Appreciate it.
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All right, bye. That was our comms director.
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Like, look at our comms director.
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Shout out to Teresa. Shout out.
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Shout out to Teresa, who is making sure that we're not
1:23
incompetent. Yeah.
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And she's doing that when you're here as well, which.
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Is like she. So yeah.
1:30
Hello everyone. Welcome to the.
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We were like on the we were on a road, we were flowing.
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Yeah, we were, Yeah, after, after the 1st 5 minutes of
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arguing about Wasps versus bees, which will now never, never get
1:44
air, which which I'm actually sad about now, just spread into
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it. All right, Yeah.
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So we're going to dive right in and the podcast listeners will
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benefit from the editing skill. We'll we'll trim that out for
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the YouTube later. Yeah, we got a question.
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So here's the plan for this week.
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We're going to be covering a little bit of John, the little
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bit of Alex's first message in the series.
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Yes, we already got it fixed. Thank you.
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Look at that. We've got like a whole team.
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This is a. Team man this is like people are
2:20
on it. I bet I've got messages as well
2:22
saying no sound, no sound. I love it man this.
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Is amazing. People are just rocking it out.
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There we go. I also have a text message
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randomly from Teresa of Little Sebastian.
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Well, that seems like a rabbit hole we shouldn't.
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Go down. All right, so we're gonna cover
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the last two weeks of sermons because we commandeered the the
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podcast for the end of the previous series last week.
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So here's a question that came in.
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I'm not gonna read the whole thing 'cause we, you and I just
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covered it a little bit. But this is a question about
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John Chapter 1, those early portions and how it relates to
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the nature of of Jesus being divine and human.
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I'll read some selections here. Alex mentioned how John was less
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concerned about the about the beginning, but more with with
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who Jesus is talking about verses one through 3.
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I, I think I said more less concerned with Genesis and more
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concerned with Jesus. OK, this is what the question is
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said. I'm just reading a question.
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You can't argue with the question.
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No, no, I thought that's how you read it the first time as well,
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so I just wondered. No, it's a less concerned about
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the beginning but more in who Jesus is when talking about
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verses one through 3. Interesting.
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So I, I, yeah, what I actually, I had a slide that said John is
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less interested in Genesis than he is about in, in, in, in, in
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Jesus. And, and so I think one of the
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really interesting things with John is how like to him you
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can't go far enough back to to understand Jesus.
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So, so, so like you when you read Mark, actually Mark, Mark
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and John, if you take away chapter one, the first half of
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the 1st 18 verses of of, of chapter 1 of John, Mark and John
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actually start very similar. They're just like, and there was
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a man called John and he was preaching and baptizing people
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and then Jesus appeared and John said Jesus is the one like
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they're they're actually just crazy similar.
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But John adds this like 18 verses of of wonder to his
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opening. So so Mark just starts straight
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off. This is the beginning of the the
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the ministry of Jesus. A man named John came inside
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baptizing Matthew and Luke. Two other biographies go go
5:03
further back to birth stories and actually kind of I think
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Matthew takes Jesus lineage all the way back to Abraham.
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Luke goes even further back. He goes all the way back to
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Adam. And I also always imagine, John,
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have you ever seen the movie Aladdin?
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There's the bit where he's like trying to create some kind of
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animal for Aladdin, the genius trying to create some kind of
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animal for Aladdin to ride on. And he's going through these
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different things. It's like still not enough.
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And he turns him into an elephant.
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And I always pictured John doing that with his opening to the
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gospel, like still not enough. Like Adam, that's not enough.
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And so he goes all the way back to Genesis, one verse one in the
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beginning. Before that, before the
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beginning, almost. Yeah, yeah, the beginning was
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the word. Was already there.
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Now I think if you're a 1st century reader, you might not
6:04
use these terms because this is a later literary term.
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Actually began with a an 18th century, 19th century New
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Testament scholar. It looks like what's called
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retroactive continuity. Like you go back and you.
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We're busting out some big words.
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Yeah, yeah. What that means is you go back
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and you tweak a story to make it mean something else.
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Like a good example is I didn't use this on Sunday.
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Is Spider Man. So, OK, in the original Spider
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Man comics, Spider Man gets bought.
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Peter Parker gets bitten by a radioactive spider.
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Yeah. And that story works because
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everyone in that time was terrified of the effects of
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nuclear bombs. Like what it might mean.
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That was the thing. Then he Fast forward to like
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early 2000s and they start making spider man again.
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Late 90s. Well, suddenly gets bitten by a
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spider. But it's no longer a radioactive
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spider. It's a genetically modified
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spider. This is now 1990.
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And no one's, no one cares about nuclear anymore.
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Yeah, but they're worried about cloning.
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Like, what about cloning near Dolly the sheep and all those
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kind of things? Yeah.
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Yeah. So it's just a, it's, it's a,
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it's a change to the story that now enables you to tell a new
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story. So you're saying this didn't
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happen? Well, what I'm saying is that
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his point isn't just so you know, something different
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happened in Genesis. I I think anyway and and other
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scholars would agree, other scholars, scholars would agree
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not to put myself in that ground.
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I just need you to know that I'm one of them, just by the way, me
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and the other guy, me. And NT right, etcetera.
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What they would say is this, that John isn't just writing
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about Genesis for its own sake. To John, the only way he can
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explain Jesus is that Jesus was there in the beginning.
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That that income, that that's the thing that like makes the
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Jesus story make sense. There is no way of understanding
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it without going all the way back to the beginning.
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OK, so so it's it's so. Why does that help?
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Why does John feel that urge and need?
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Because he's trying to get across a story that's
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unexplainable. He's like, how do you explain
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the unexplainable? Like how, how do you explain
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something that's like that mysterious?
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You're, you're trying to explain something that nobody's ever
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seen. It's like if I just make up a
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creature and like, I'm just going to explain this to you.
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And you're like, wait, what? So.
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So John's trying to so. He's saying the person of Jesus
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is is unexplainable unless we think of him as being there from
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the very beginning. Yeah.
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And and that's why when you hear him talked about within the
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Gospels, like, none of the terms fit completely.
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Like, is he the Messiah? Yeah, but that's not everything.
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It's bigger than that, you know, like, like, so, so, so somewhere
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John's got to, like, get across. No, no, this is what it really
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is. And that's hard to do.
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And so how he does that is he says Jesus was there all the way
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back there in the beginning. OK.
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So that brings us to the second part of the question, which
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starts to ask more of a Trinity kind of a question or maybe
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Christology kind of a question, which is like the nature of
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Jesus, right? So the second part of the
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question, there is a lot of arguments surrounding the Lagos
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and how John was using it that Mormons and others with less
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trinitarian beliefs have trouble with.
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I guess I'm asking for some deeper explanation of
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terminology, how other scriptures back up those claims
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of Jesus being God. So they're wanting a wanting us
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to make a case both from this passage and from maybe a larger
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set of texts, that Jesus is God, that he's divine and not just a
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great. Teacher John is really helpful
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for that both here and at the end of John in John 20 when it
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talks about Thomas kneeling down and worship him, worship get
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worshiping him and and Thomas makes this statement my Lord and
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my God, you know that I think I think one of one of the cult
10:30
sort of beliefs tried to claim that he said my Lord, Oh my God,
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or something like that. It definitely stretches the
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language. It definitely like evocative
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field to that language. So so so I.
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Yeah, and there's some, there's plenty of other things that
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hinted his deity. Yeah.
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And, and then Romans, Paul, I think Romans 9, Paul pushes into
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that language as well. So, so it's there overall,
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overall, but, but I think one of the things we have to appreciate
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is just how groundbreaking this news was even to those first
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disciples. So it's suddenly you're, you're
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starting to hear that someone once said to me, they phrased it
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like this. And I think this was really
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helpful because I think a lot of Christians struggle with
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language like, well, like God and Jesus or God and Jesus on
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the Holy Spirit. And, and of course, like God
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actually has as a term has limited use in the, the
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Scriptures in general. Yeah.
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And, and, and, and what this person said is I think it's
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helpful if you understand that in the, the, the Old Testament,
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the covenant name for, for God is Yahweh.
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I am who I am. Yeah, and in the New Testament
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we find out that the covenant name for God is Father, Son and
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Holy Spirit. That that actually, like that's
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both a, a name that can be separated into three persons,
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but it's an overarching name that refers to the one God of
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the universe. Because otherwise we, we, we, we
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just struggle with it. Like, like even just we struggle
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with like trying to have one and turn it into 3.
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And I'm trying to remember who said this.
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Maybe it was Richard Ross said, like, I actually think it's
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easier to start with three and, and turn 3 into one than it is
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the other way around. Yeah.
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But because it's not a natural nothing that we do, nothing that
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we've seen can explain it fully. We try using things like H2O.
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We're like, well, there's H2O and then there's gas and water
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and and gas, water and ice, but yeah, but not at the same time.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're, they're one of those 3
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three things at different points.
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They're not in conversation. So in my in one of my theology
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classes, the professor, when we went into the Trinity section of
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the course said, I promise you, I've yet to teach a a semester
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where someone in the class didn't commit a trinitarian
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heresy. Yes, yeah, sure.
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I promise you, you will be heretical in your paper on the
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Trinity, so good luck with that. Yeah, but he was just like, the
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point is that we just can't fully apprehend all of that, the
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implications and the meanings of it, and every single
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illustration seems to fall short and you have to just kind of
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like tiptoe around. Yeah, He actually had this
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heresy meter you put. And so when we were talking
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about different things, he's like, like, tell me some of your
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favorite illustrations of the Trinity.
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And some would be like, oh, this one was the best one I've ever
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heard. And they're like, you know,
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these young students are like, oh, you know, this is exciting
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one, like where, you know, like, have water or something.
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Yeah, like piano chords is another one that comes out.
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Yeah, one of those chords is actually one of those notes is
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the same note as the chord, and two of them aren't.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's like, oh, but this
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one's perfect, you know, it's like, and then he's just like
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heresy meter today. And then we go through and then
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the course, you learn all these things.
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And, and I think, I think that I think the thing that you hope
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you understand in the end is that I, I think we in the West,
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especially post like modern, modern period, 1800s ish, we, we
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think God is somebody or something to be understood.
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And actually, I think most of the writers think he's someone
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to be experienced and that they're trying to do the best
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they can to explain what they've experienced so that we can
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experience it too. Like if you can get to the end
15:01
of an understanding about God on this earth with the knowledge
15:05
that you have, then man, eternity is going to be a pretty
15:09
boring experience. I mean, it seems like the whole
15:13
point of or, or part of the beauty of eternity is that we,
15:17
we do what CS Lewis talks about in the screw tape letters where
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there's this moment of revelation, which is like, oh,
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that was you all all along. Like, yeah, OK.
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So, so sorry. So I think understanding well, a
15:29
good goal has to be held in tension with this idea that
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we're trying to understand the ununderstandable, we're trying
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to explain the unexplainable. Yeah.
15:41
OK. So I think that that I mean, I
15:42
think that that's super helpful to get at this question.
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And what they've asked us essentially to do is maybe make
15:49
a little bit of a systematic theology case for the deity of,
15:53
of Christ to sort of like ground his deity and some other
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passages. You already hinted at a few of
15:59
them. But then I would love to back up
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a little bit more and talk about why does John, the author of
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this book, have this urge to like swell the image of Christ
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into this this grandeur space and, and what kind of literary
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tricks is he playing to pull that off?
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So, so like, yeah. So are there any other things we
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want to say about the nature of God that we to help people,
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whoever asked this question to ground to them a little bit?
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Is he is Jesus actually God? Yeah, perfect.
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End of story. Good.
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Podcast on theology. But I think you're right in that
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it it's at times almost whispered.
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It's at times you can always feel the nervousness of the
16:55
authors of as as to what they're like.
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You know that what they're potentially saying that that's
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the weird thing about like talking about God is that we're
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talking about something so far beyond us that when you say
17:10
something new like that and and we talk about inspiration of the
17:15
writers, but but inspiration is not the same as simply
17:23
translation. Like God is leading them to
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write what they write. Yeah.
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But that doesn't mean that they they are getting like a clear
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word for word like sentences that they're humans that have to
17:39
include their humanness in the story.
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Yeah. And so when when we hear them
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talking about that, we're like, oh man, like I can almost feel
17:51
like the newness of what they're writing and just how
17:54
groundbreaking it is for them. I mean, we pick up this early
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enough in in terms of like the the the the synoptic Gospels
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include less of that language, but the letters of Paul include
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that language like Philippians 2 is one that that that stands out
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though being in nature very God or being by nature God, He did
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not consider that something to be.
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Quality, yeah. But made himself nothing and.
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Then Hebrews 1 and this, and then John chapter 1 and all.
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And then there's all these different stories throughout the
18:32
synoptic Doppler. So like, I think one of the
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tricky parts, OK, for a, a show that got us started a little
18:39
late because we didn't have sound, I think things like the
18:46
hypostatic union. You want to throw out some
18:49
theology at ya. That is the conversation about
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how can he be fully godfully man.
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And then the Trinity are such they're they're theological
19:02
doctrines that are formed through the Crucible of time and
19:09
meditation on the scriptures. It's really hard to do that in
19:12
the one hour episode. So maybe a story might help.
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I think Alex gave you some passages you could look at and.
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I would add, I would add to the list that we gave John Chapter
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8, which I think is a really interesting dialogue.
19:30
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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Where where the Pharisees actually say to Jesus something
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like, you're not all even old enough to have a beard.
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Like, how would you know anything about Abraham?
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Yeah. And and Jesus in this very
19:44
provocative language, as before Abraham was.
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I am and I was, but I am, which is again this covenant name for
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God, or at least a pot he really like.
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He really lands the plane on that idea himself.
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Yeah, if you, if you begin, like to start to get access at some
20:04
of the claims to deity that Jesus makes throughout the
20:07
Gospels, if you understand like Hebrew scriptures and Hebrew
20:14
religious tradition and then some of the culture, it's like
20:19
he is not beating. Like for us, it feels like he's
20:21
beating around a Bush and being secretive.
20:24
They knew what he was saying, like so aggressively and so
20:28
well. That's why.
20:29
They tried to throw him off cliffs and try to you.
20:31
Know they're so the reason one of the main reasons why Jesus
20:36
gets killed on the cross is because of he he's claiming to
20:38
be God and they knew it without a shadow of a doubt and we were
20:45
like does he did he really think that yeah I mean yeah, the 1st
20:50
century person wouldn't be asking that question.
20:52
So a couple maybe resources to you. 1 is a little bit of a
20:56
story from when I took a section on the Trinity.
20:58
And, and one of my classes is we, we went through a process
21:04
during this. Maybe it was a four, four week
21:07
section of the course dedicated to the trainee, plus a ton of
21:10
reading and a paper where we actually started to trace how
21:15
the early church fathers and early church theologians
21:19
formulated the doctrine of the Trinity and all of the
21:23
conversations. And what you, what you start to
21:25
find is that like if you do a, a deep dive theologically into the
21:31
scriptures and into the, into the original context and all
21:35
these sorts of things, the, the Trinity is very explicit and
21:40
clear. It's actually, it stands on very
21:43
strong doctrinal legs, which is why it's deeply rooted inside of
21:47
all of the creeds. It's, it's like right down there
21:51
at the bottom of of the faith. This book was my favorite in
21:57
that class. The deep Things of God, how the
22:02
Trinity changes everything. I think it's the best book I've
22:05
ever read on the Trinity. Do you have any book
22:06
recommendations? Off the top of my head, I think
22:15
there's a book called The Person of Christ by is Ian Marshall.
22:22
Let me look that up really quick.
22:25
For the, for the audio listeners, yeah, the one I
22:27
popped up here on the screen was The Deep Things of God by Fred
22:30
Sanders. How the Trinity changes
22:32
everything. And then you you're going to
22:34
look at one up, one other one up.
22:37
But then I have I want to jump backwards into a little bit of a
22:40
question around what in the world is John?
22:42
Ian Howard Marshall, Yeah. Ian Howard Marshall, What was
22:45
the title again? Yeah, the person of Christ.
22:47
Person of Christ. Yeah.
22:48
So if that if you. Or the work.
22:50
Sorry, the work of Christ. The work of Christ, if you're
22:53
curious a little bit more about the nature of Jesus and was did
22:57
he actually think he was God and how does him being fully God and
23:01
fully man work and all that stuff, then maybe those.
23:03
Are some good resources. One more for you as well is
23:07
Daryl Johnson, I think has a book on the Trinity,
23:10
Experiencing the Trinity. This is a bit more like if you
23:13
don't want to tap into like the scholarly stuff, this is a bit
23:17
more within reach. Experiencing the Trinity, living
23:20
in the relationship at the center.
23:25
Yeah, I think that that one's a really good.
23:27
He's a professor at Regents College in Vancouver, but but
23:33
writes really excessively and preaches a lot in churches on
23:37
this kind of stuff. So interestingly, all right, so
23:39
the question was framed, maybe it, it had even a hint to this,
23:43
to Mormonism and how they struggled to see the deity of,
23:46
of Christ and all that stuff. So it maybe had a little bit
23:48
more of an apologetic impulse behind the question.
23:55
Who cares? Who cares that he's God or man
23:59
or human? Like why does it matter to one
24:04
of our listeners who's a stay at home mom who's just trying to
24:07
figure out how to get her kids fed and out the door on time and
24:10
so forth? Why does the Trinity and the
24:13
nature of Jesus matter? Man, that that's a difficult one
24:16
because things can matter theologically without always
24:24
impacting you the way that you think they should or might in
24:28
your day-to-day life. So.
24:31
Yeah, unpack that a little. Bit well, well, I think the the
24:34
idea that that Jesus loved you and died for you and that
24:41
somehow changes everything about your relationship with the
24:44
Father. That's the the first piece of
24:49
knowledge. So you can you can walk through
24:53
this Christian faith for a long time with uncertainty about how
24:57
the Trinity operates and what that looks like in practical
25:01
terms and continue to grow in your faith and experience God
25:05
for yourselves. So, so that, that that to me is
25:09
always a fascinating question, like what, what, what do you
25:13
teach as orthodoxy versus what do you, what do you worry about
25:22
people knowing in a given moment?
25:26
Yeah. So I guess that maybe the
25:27
question I'm actually asking is, is not does that Mom that I just
25:35
described or whatever, and any average person in our community,
25:45
what do they need to know to be a good Christian?
25:48
That's not what I'm asking. What I'm actually asking is, is
25:51
there some goodness and beauty to be had by getting a deeper
25:58
understanding of the theology behind the nature of Christ?
26:04
So, so I, I think the goodness that you're going to experience
26:09
is the extreme like distance that Jesus traveled to do what
26:15
he did and the, the genuine beauty of being told that not
26:20
only does some kind of gift of God live within you, but God is
26:26
actually dwelling within you. I mean, those things are super,
26:31
super rich. So it's on a, on a practical
26:33
level, those are what I would want people to know.
26:36
In reality, my guess is almost every follower of Jesus is going
26:41
to nudge closer to the three idea than the one idea, or
26:46
closer to the one idea than the three idea.
26:49
And there was never not me included.
26:52
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.
26:53
So it's not. Me and those, me and those other
26:55
scholars included, yeah, who almost never going to to get it
27:00
perfectly balanced. That's not the goal.
27:03
Yeah, the goal is not to be able to articulate it to a doctoral
27:07
dissertation board and get all the i's dotted and T's crossed.
27:13
I think one of the, the fun elements of it is, and I think
27:18
I've I've even taught this before, that there's a passage
27:22
in Genesis 18 the, the, the it's usually listed as something like
27:30
the oak trees at memory or something like that.
27:32
It's a story about Abraham you. Know he's I pull up that piece
27:36
of art. Yeah, sure.
27:37
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That this is actually an icon
27:40
from the Greek Orthodox Church that goes back, you know, 12113
27:45
hundred years or something like that.
27:47
And it's a picture of Abraham meeting the three travellers.
27:53
Some people wouldn't say that that's a Trinitarian
27:58
conversation. So it doesn't say that
28:04
explicitly. This is not the one I was
28:07
thinking of. Is that the one you were?
28:08
Thinking of, yeah, that's the one I think.
28:10
Yeah, on the right. Yeah.
28:11
That's that's good enough, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was another.
28:15
Oh, maybe. And obviously only some people
28:17
can see it. Yeah, I'll pull it up anyways
28:20
you. Have this.
28:20
Love the YouTube people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:23
They're they're better. So, so and you can if you, if
28:26
you just search oak trees of Mamre MAMRE icon, you'll find
28:33
this pretty easily. So it's this picture of these
28:37
three figures that Abraham dines with.
28:41
Now, in the original icon, when scholars were examining it, they
28:48
found a substance at the bottom of it that suggested that it
28:54
like had some kind of like tackiness to almost some like
28:59
glue like substance. And so they decided to kind of
29:03
investigate what could have been in this place.
29:06
There it is on the icon. This is the one I'm thinking of,
29:09
and this is the one you're talking about actually now.
29:13
And the best conclusions that they came to was at the bottom
29:20
was a mirror. And so you, like Abraham, got
29:24
the opportunity to see yourself reflected in this conversation.
29:29
Yeah, like somewhere in this region here, maybe you're almost
29:32
meant to be pictured, especially in the Orthodox tradition, which
29:37
I think has a lot. The Eastern Orthodox Church has
29:41
a lot to teach us about the Trinity.
29:43
I think one of the traditions is really strong in the Trinity.
29:46
So you're supposed to be sort of seeing this picture.
29:49
The way it's framed is like you're supposed to be almost
29:52
sitting at the table with the Trinity.
29:53
And, and, and, and so that like when I've tried to explain the
29:58
Trinity to people, I've actually used more often like images of
30:06
like a meal of a dance of those kind of things that you're
30:12
invited into because it's, it's very, it's a very relational
30:20
concept. So, so people that have looked
30:22
at the Trinity over the years have said things like, well,
30:24
actually interestingly, like 3 is the first point where you get
30:28
genuine self giving love, like one person to one person.
30:35
Actually, it's entirely self interested.
30:37
Whereas with three it's, it's, it becomes self giving.
30:40
So there's almost this like there's this continuous self
30:45
giving relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit
30:49
while also maintaining this unity.
30:52
Like it's, it's actually beautiful when you think about
30:54
it and so, so different to what we'll ever get to experience
30:58
outside. Of and so, so some of what
31:00
you're getting to is actually, it's not necessarily for you to
31:04
like understand the doctrine of the Trinity in order to enter
31:07
the faith tradition of, of a follower of Jesus.
31:10
But there's richness to be had in the sense that you start to
31:15
as you meditate on the scriptures, as you meditate on
31:18
some of these doctrines, there's this beautiful reality that that
31:25
can actually be really transformative to your faith to,
31:27
to know that God's inviting you into a into a, a relationship of
31:34
love that is pure in the gospel. It's there's a beautiful reality
31:39
to the nature of Jesus to know that he is for example, the
31:43
Philippians 2 passage that he is living his holy life leveraging
31:52
his humanity rather than his deity.
31:55
And why is that important? Because it means that you can do
31:59
as he does if you stay connected in relationship with.
32:03
The Father and by the power of Spirit for somebody.
32:08
Really uncomfortable. And then the deity part is to,
32:12
it's so important for the sake of atonement theory for us to
32:17
understand the gravity of the sacrifice that was made on our
32:21
behalf. How does it one human's death
32:25
thousands of years ago have anything to do with us, which
32:29
we've talked about on the show now?
32:31
Well, when the, the quality of this this being is divine, it's
32:38
of infinite value and has the capacity to pay off every debt
32:41
of all humans in all of history and on and on and on.
32:44
And so and so then you start to appreciate all that God is and
32:49
does. And your worship can increase by
32:51
understanding these doctrines. But on an average every day, is
32:56
it is it important? Well, may maybe not, but it is
32:59
these these beautiful invitations to get to know who
33:02
he is Better. Yeah.
33:03
One of the interesting things around the the divinity of Jesus
33:07
that I think is missed by us living when we do.
33:13
There was actually language around Son of God in multiple
33:19
places around this time, especially in in the Roman cult
33:25
where a son would name his father of God after he died.
33:32
Wicked move there, yeah. With the convenience that he
33:35
would then become a son of God and also divine.
33:38
So they just lived with a broad assumption across multiple
33:41
cultures that the the son of God was was divine, like the father
33:48
of a daughter of a God was divine, like the mother and, and
33:51
so. So for us it gets a little bit
33:53
more philosophical, but for them that was just a natural
33:56
understanding and and almost like claimed territory.
34:00
So while in a Jewish tradition the word God has no sons, which
34:07
is interestingly why Muslims claim that Jesus can't be divine
34:13
because the name Allah actually means something like God has no
34:17
son. And so there is this like idea
34:24
floating around. Well, imagine if he did, who
34:26
would that son be? And so, so for, for for them.
34:31
You actually find passages in the Gospels where it says like,
34:36
oh, he claimed to be the Son of God, making himself equal with
34:39
God. Like we don't get that today.
34:41
We're like, wait, but a son's not equal to his father, but
34:44
for, for their culture. Yeah.
34:46
No, it totally made sense. Yeah, like he grows up and
34:49
becomes the thing. That he's.
34:51
Yeah. So.
34:51
So again, like we're a little bit out of time with all of this
34:55
because in, even up until the 16th century, atheists don't
35:02
exist. I mean, they're, they're just
35:04
not there really. They they're like and.
35:08
And in the 16th century, even the worst murderer believes that
35:11
a God will judge him at some point.
35:13
Yeah, go read some Dostai FC, yeah.
35:15
Yeah, and and then you get to the, the, the, the 21st century
35:20
and even the most devout pastor or priest will have questions
35:25
about like. Does God exist?
35:27
Yeah. So, so that's just some of the
35:29
shift we've experienced societally.
35:32
So do you mind if we change gears a little bit?
35:35
No, all right, perfect. Because I think this will help
35:39
us spill a little bit beyond this passage.
35:42
We've just gone at really meta level, almost systematic
35:46
theology level, but the book of John.
35:52
So maybe at the series level, John is seems to be trying to
36:00
accomplish some unique things compared to the rest of the
36:03
gospels. And you've already hinted at he
36:09
has maybe the strongest theological agenda and we may
36:14
not like, so maybe you're listening there.
36:15
What do you mean by John has an agenda like that may feel
36:20
uncomfortable to you to think of the Bible as the the author of a
36:25
book of the Bible as having his own agenda.
36:29
And that's a a different conversation of complexity
36:32
there. But let's just paint a picture
36:36
of the Gospels. We have Mark probably the
36:39
earliest. Of the Gospels.
36:40
Yeah, of the Gospels, it has this like I've got to get this
36:45
down since. It's there was even theories
36:48
that Mark was actually written as a play.
36:52
Oh yeah. Because the ending so like
36:54
dramatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:55
It's like. And they heard he was risen.
36:58
Nothing. Yeah, he just leaves you with
37:00
that. Like what you got to find out
37:02
more about this. Yeah.
37:04
And so then so Mark has this like immediacy sentence.
37:08
In fact, that's a word that shows up all over the place.
37:11
It's. Like so fast.
37:13
It's it's it's high paced. If you wrote like Mark wrote,
37:16
you would get bad grades in a number of tests.
37:19
And then and then you have probably Matthew, right?
37:23
Yeah, Matthew or Luke is a bit of a task.
37:24
Yeah, and Matthew seems to be trying to win over the hearts of
37:30
the Jews a little bit. Like let me let me do a little
37:33
bit more Old Testament references to try and convince
37:39
the Jewish world that Jesus was the Messiah.
37:44
And then Luke is the most maybe like, if you are a typical
37:49
American, maybe Luke's good for you because he's maybe the most
37:52
obsessed with chronology. He's a little bit more
37:55
systematic, which just tends to be how our Western minds prefer.
37:59
He's a doctor. He tells Theophilus that his
38:02
agenda is to write an orderly account.
38:04
All of this stuff, right? And he uses a lot of like in
38:07
English. It's like a lot of whilsts and
38:09
like, yeah, Jesus went to a fountain.
38:12
Whilst he was there, a woman approached him.
38:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a little higher
38:16
language. He's a doctor, he's really well
38:18
educated. He it's all one unit.
38:21
Luke and Acts is all one unit. So he actually tells both
38:24
Jesus's story and the early story of the early church.
38:27
So there you go. Now John is the latest.
38:31
There's like a big gap to his authorship.
38:35
He's an old man most likely, and he's had the longest amount of
38:41
time to Stew in all of the other gospels, conversations with his
38:50
friends who walked and talked with Jesus, seeing the early
38:54
church form. And he's he's literally sat with
38:58
the theological implications. So I want maybe for for our
39:01
audience to picture like a really wise old man who's been
39:05
walking with Jesus both physically and spiritually
39:08
through the Spirit for the longest out of anyone.
39:12
And then he comes to the text with an agenda to teach us about
39:16
the this, this amazing man he knew.
39:19
So that's what we mean by agenda.
39:20
So then, so that's what you were kind of talking about the
39:25
beginning where you're like he has, he wants to swell this
39:29
bigger and more grand than anyone has.
39:32
So far one of the interesting things when you talk about like
39:35
authorial intent with the Gospels is it is it it it may be
39:42
like it raises our antenna a little bit because of the word
39:48
we use inspiration. Now I think low key across most,
39:55
most followers of Jesus that haven't, you know, self
39:59
confessedly really dived into to to theology or understood like
40:04
how the scriptures are put together.
40:06
They here inspired and they assume that the first that the
40:11
writers of the books in the scriptures were inspired and
40:16
they knew they were inspired. Yeah, like that they were
40:20
writing and they're like, I'm totally writing scripture here.
40:24
Because. They're almost like in a trance
40:25
or. Something yeah, yeah.
40:26
And I'm listening and I'm just penning it down as I'm like
40:29
giving it trance style. There's actually nothing in the
40:33
scriptures that say that at all like inspired actually is just
40:38
as inspired when you're inspired and you don't know it versus
40:42
inspired and you do know it. They wrote because they felt led
40:47
to write. And some of them wrote
40:49
situational letters and some of them wrote biographies of Jesus
40:52
life. But the inspired isn't
40:54
necessarily about how they approached it or how what they
40:58
knew about what they were writing.
41:00
It's about the text itself. People in the church gathered
41:03
together around 350 AD and this had been an ongoing
41:07
conversation. And they said these are the
41:08
texts that we see God's fingerprint on.
41:12
So, so none of those first writers are like guys, make sure
41:15
if there's a book, this goes in there because it's definitely
41:19
inspired. Yeah, I mean, there's a few like
41:22
little hints, like we get some pretty early accounts of Peter
41:28
referencing Paul's writings as probably as as built as God's
41:32
words. You'll see like you get a couple
41:35
and this is all part of billiology.
41:37
That's. Part of that ongoing
41:38
conversation, it's not Paul's. Not saying that, but.
41:40
But what Alex is saying is absolutely true.
41:42
Like if we, if you have this impression and this, maybe we
41:45
should offer I, I would love to offer a hermeneutics and
41:50
bibliology class someday for those who are want to be in the
41:55
nerdy space of like, how is the Bible formed?
41:56
But I think it is a perception of most, a lot of a lot of
41:59
Christians that the Bible that we have now was delivered by a
42:05
dove to the doorstep of some monastery in the 1600s.
42:10
And that's why we know it's inspired, because it was
42:14
miraculous that it dropped in to a doorstep.
42:17
I think a passage actually really illustrates this well,
42:19
and I'm going to struggle to remember the exact reference,
42:22
but Paul has a textual conversation with the
42:26
Corinthians where he gives them a couple of things to do and he
42:31
says of 1 not our, not the Lord, but I tell you this.
42:39
And in another one he says, not I, but the Lord tell you this.
42:43
So there's this one moment where he has this feeling that what
42:48
I'm telling you, definitely I believe this is something God is
42:51
saying to you. Yeah, First Corinthians 7.
42:54
Yeah, 10 through 12 to the married, I give this command,
42:57
not I, but the Lord. Yeah, da, da, da, da.
43:00
And then later on he says I, not the Lord.
43:07
Yeah. So, so he's got one passage
43:09
where he's like, this is this is God telling you this as far as I
43:13
can tell. And then he's got another where
43:15
he's like, I don't know if God is saying this at all, but this
43:17
is what I would give you as a piece of wisdom.
43:20
Now the early church in that process that began all the way
43:27
back here with Peter saying things like twisting Paul's
43:31
words like they do the other scriptures all the way through
43:33
that early church period with Irenaeus talking about who wrote
43:37
which of the gospels, which don't have a name attached to
43:40
them except for Luke. Like they, they don't really
43:43
have that, that sense of like actually Luke doesn't either.
43:47
It just is implied. So, so they don't, they don't
43:51
have any of those things attached.
43:53
But he started to say, no, Mark wrote this first and then this
43:56
one and then this one. And This is why they wrote all
43:59
that process all the way up to 350 AD at the the the councils
44:03
that decided this, I think is it trend?
44:07
Is it cancel a trend that finally can't?
44:09
Recall you're the one I would ask.
44:14
Someone there looked at Corinthians as a whole and says
44:19
this is inspired despite Paul's uncertainty about specific
44:23
parts. The Council disagrees with Paul.
44:27
About this part, yeah, he's like, we're going to put this in
44:29
the Scriptures. We think this is like this is
44:31
this is inspired. Oh my God, God is behind this
44:34
and breathing on it and he's bringing.
44:38
Even though Paul explicitly says.
44:40
Despite what Paul feels about part of his writing.
44:43
Yep. Which again, is just fascinating
44:44
as to the process, Yeah, you would think if Paul knew
44:48
concretely what he was writing would be in the scriptures at
44:51
some point, he'd be like, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to
44:53
put this part in just in case you take it the the wrong way.
44:57
Is is is erasing his teaching around not the Lord, but I it's
45:02
like I can't include that. Yeah.
45:04
And so like so to bring it back home and maybe it for the sake
45:10
of conclusion as we enter into this book of John, some of that
45:16
is true that that it might be helpful each week as we talk
45:19
about these chapters. Imagine the wise, the wisest,
45:26
walking with Jesus, the longest, literally, physically talking
45:30
and walking with Jesus for a portion of his life.
45:33
This is the person of John, and he has this desire for us to
45:39
know Jesus at a more intimate level, and that's his
45:45
theological agenda. And so then he's actually
45:48
arranging these stories in a specific order.
45:52
He's the least chronological and so he's he's got bad agenda on
45:59
the mind, which is I think is a great segue into your message
46:03
this last Sunday, because he if remember what John's agenda is
46:09
to to show us that Jesus is the best and most important and most
46:15
amazing. And then we get into this story
46:17
about John the Baptist and John the Baptist.
46:20
Like describe what you sort of the big idea ish that you came
46:24
up with for this, this particular account of John the
46:28
Baptist, because he illustrates almost the thesis of the whole
46:31
book. Right.
46:32
Yeah. So, yeah, this John's account of
46:38
John the Baptist again, like flagging the elephant in the
46:40
room, John versus John and like sometimes trying to figure out
46:44
who's saying which is complicated.
46:47
Well, suddenly, which I mean, it's it's the most, it's the
46:53
most distinct like that there are, there is more going on here
46:57
and more proclamations by John. Like John talks about baptizing
47:01
Jesus and having this awareness that he isn't qualified to do
47:05
that. You know, in the other, in the
47:07
other gospels, it's like, you should be baptizing me.
47:10
So there's an awareness that Jesus is someone distinct.
47:15
And then there's this vision that he has of, of, of the
47:19
spirit coming down on him. But in, in John, it's very
47:23
concrete language. So he sees Jesus and he, he's,
47:29
he's already alluded in the first part of the text we
47:32
covered to one's coming who will do more than baptize with water,
47:38
they'll baptize with the Holy Spirit.
47:42
Is this the beginning of the three day?
47:44
Kind of. Thing he's got these people that
47:46
have come to me, come to him with questions like who are you?
47:49
Like there's clearly something with John that he stands out.
47:52
He's very significant as a character.
47:55
And so as you watch, John is going to brilliantly do two
47:59
things. He's going to really honor John
48:02
the Baptist and make him seem like someone significant and
48:06
almost in the same breath, he's going to downplay him to like a
48:12
huge degree. It was like John was amazing.
48:16
And then you compare him to Jesus and he's very
48:19
insignificant and and he's going to do it with John's own words.
48:23
And so maybe the like, the moral of the story is the key to being
48:26
a the best is to deflect praise to Jesus.
48:31
And he's going to say John will say that explicitly.
48:33
John the Baptist will say that explicitly.
48:35
Explicitly later on in the book. Yeah, he must become very.
48:39
And John again, John the author again thinking about his agenda
48:42
of like, let's big fat spotlight, biggest spotlight.
48:47
I can find every literary tool I can possibly imagine for my
48:51
entire life. I'm going to leverage to try and
48:54
put a spotlight. On now this is some something
48:56
you bring into a sermon necessarily, but there were
48:58
there are stories, there are people writers that have said,
49:02
you know, somewhere in that latter half of the 1st century
49:05
after Jesus death and resurrection, there's a few
49:07
writers that try to elevate John back up.
49:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and so so part of what
49:13
Johnny's doing is saying no, no, no, there's no elevating the man
49:17
that was just a man. The only one that gets elevated
49:20
is the one who was something more.
49:24
And so John the rider has like this three day window where it
49:29
begins with John saying something like the king is
49:33
coming or the king is here. And, and we know that he means
49:38
something like a king because he starts to use language of like
49:40
not even worthy of undoing his his sandals.
49:45
And, and actually the language around Messiah has also framed
49:48
that idea of kingship as well, because you come and ask John,
49:50
are you the Messiah? And he says, no one is coming
49:53
who I'm not even worthy to undo their sandals.
49:56
So, so somewhere there's this person that he's now identified
49:58
that somewhere in their midst, like unnamed.
50:01
And then on day two, he very concretely points to.
50:04
So this is the king like this, this is the one.
50:07
And, and both of those are significant.
50:10
But to me, the third day is the most significant because John is
50:15
something like a rabbi, if not very explicitly A rabbi.
50:18
He's a teacher, but has this prophetic tendency as well.
50:22
So it's hard to hard to hard to put in a box but it.
50:26
But in the midst of these two days, he with his two, at least
50:32
two of his disciples, points to Jesus and says the Lamb of God.
50:36
And somewhere from the way he says it or what he says, the
50:41
disciples get the inference. It's time to leave John and
50:44
follow Jesus. Yeah.
50:45
And at this point, it's not because Jesus has a bigger crowd
50:49
than John. It's actually the opposite.
50:51
So if these two disciples. They haven't even heard Jesus
50:56
teach. It like if these two disciples
50:59
goal was to be let's be closest to the biggest, coolest trend.
51:04
John the Baptist is it. He's the big trend and somehow
51:10
John the Baptist has this ability to convince stop
51:13
following this trend, which is me, John the Baptist, and start
51:16
following that guy who has no one yet.
51:18
This is the thing you really want to see.
51:20
And, and it's, it's so like bizarrely in our world, it's
51:22
like an Instagram follower, millions of followers saying
51:26
like, this is the one you really want to follow.
51:28
Yeah, follow this guy. 0 followers.
51:31
It's, it's like, it's the reverse of our normal joke about
51:34
Tim Mackey. It's like Tim Mackey saying to
51:37
his followers, you know you really want to check out the red
51:39
couch, the alch. Hey, that'd be so funny.
51:44
Oh, if we could convince Tim Mackie to give us a shout out on
51:47
this podcast. It it's actually it actually was
51:50
a. But in this case, it would
51:52
definitely be a downgrade. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:54
It's like it's actually a brilliant joke that the writers
51:57
of Did you ever watch the Ace Ventura Movies?
52:01
Yeah, vaguely like. So, so so they brought out their
52:05
first movie at the the same year.
52:07
No, it's the second movie The the the same year that the Star
52:13
Wars prequels came out and like, it's on this huge like Star Wars
52:17
after two decades of nothing is now making movies again.
52:22
And so in one of their trailers they had.
52:24
If you only see one movie this year, see Star Wars.
52:28
If you see two, watch Ace Ventura Detective.
52:34
Brilliant commercial. I do.
52:36
Yeah. And yeah, John is like, this is
52:41
the one. Follow him.
52:43
So to get back to like the the John, the author's perspective,
52:49
like the the way he tells the John Baptist story, enforces his
52:55
thesis that Jesus is the best. Jesus is awesome.
52:58
He's. Amazing.
53:00
He is worthy. He's all of this stuff and so
53:03
like. And and and.
53:05
John the Baptist gets props inasmuch as he deflects praise
53:10
to Jesus. That's.
53:11
So cool. And it's, yeah, this brilliant
53:14
triad of days that ends up with this idea that John, that an
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idea that Jesus actually explicitly says at other points
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in the synoptic synoptics, there has never been anyone like John
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except Jesus. And comparing John to Jesus is
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is absurd. It's not even on the cards.
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That's cool. So, so yeah, elevating at the
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same time diminishing. So we did something last week
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for the first time that I feel like we should do a little bit
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more often, maybe not always. But would you pray for our
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listeners and maybe in their process of trying to do as John
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the Baptist did, to set to you to leverage all of their
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influence, all of their gifts, all of their resources towards
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making Jesus great? Let's do that Father.
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We pray for each person listening and for ourselves in
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the room as well. That we will be able to see
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Jesus, see him for who he really is, be in awe of Him, fall in
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love with Him, be transformed by Him.
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And that we would take every resource we have, time, money,
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influence, to be able to point other people to him, to say
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don't look at me, but look at him because he's the one for
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everyone wrestling with What does divinity mean?
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What does Trinity mean? What does inspiration mean?
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Would you remind them that they're on a journey?
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That we value knowledge. And actually, interestingly, you
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choose to value faith more than knowledge, choose to value
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obedience over sacrifice. So help us to just keep walking
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towards you even when we're uncertain of the path around.
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Amen. Amen.
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All right. Well, thank you all for tuning
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in. See you guys.
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And yeah, I've got to find the stop button as always.