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Knitting in cancer care with Susan Yaguda · Why I Knit

0:04
Mia Hobbs: Hello and welcome back to series two of the Why I
0:07
Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical
0:11
psychologist who's passionate about knitting and its benefits
0:14
for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I interview a different
0:17
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
0:20
health. This week on the podcast I'm joined by Susan Yaguda.
0:25
Susan is an oncology nurse working at The Cancer Institute
0:29
in Charlotte, North Carolina. Susan joins me to talk about how
0:34
knitting has benefited her own wellbeing and also how she's
0:37
used knitting in her place of work with both staff and
0:40
patients. Please note that during our discussion, we do
0:43
talk about cancer and bereavement.
0:52
So hi, Susan. Welcome to the podcast.
0:54
Susan Yaguda: Good morning! Thank you.
0:57
Mia Hobbs: It's afternoon here but morning where you are.
0:58
Susan Yaguda: Oh, it's good morning for me!
1:00
Mia Hobbs: What's the time where you are?
1:02
Susan Yaguda: It's 8 o'clock.
1:04
Mia Hobbs: 8 o'clock, so early! Thank you so much for joining
1:07
me.
1:08
Susan Yaguda: That's okay, I'm a morning person.
1:09
Mia Hobbs: Oh that's good, me too. I always start the podcast
1:13
by asking where your story with knitting began.
1:19
Susan Yaguda: I grew up in a family of knitters, to be honest
1:22
with you. I'm the youngest of six. My mom, my aunts, my
1:28
sisters all knit, growing up. For some reason, I did not. I'm
1:35
not sure why. I did some cross stitch and that type of thing
1:40
and really enjoyed that. And then when my children were in
1:49
Montessori school, they were quite young, and another mom,
1:55
who was an amazing knitter, said, "Hey, could we do a
2:01
mother-daughter knitting group?" And so I was up for that, and
2:05
there were several other moms. So we would get together, the
2:11
kids would kind of knit for a few minutes, and then they'd go
2:15
off and do their own thing. But we really, as parents, enjoyed
2:23
the sense of community and of course learning a new skill.
2:27
That was about 20 years ago, I think, as my daughter is now 28.
2:33
So I think she was around 8 years old when we did that. And
2:37
I haven't stopped since. It's just been such a blessing to my
2:43
life for so many reasons that I'm really grateful to that mom
2:51
for spearheading it and getting me started on it.
2:58
Mia Hobbs: So you hadn't knitted at all before that point?
3:00
Susan Yaguda: No.
3:02
Mia Hobbs: Oh wow!
3:02
Susan Yaguda: The funny thing is now, my sisters and my mom... my
3:02
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So it really feels like part of your
3:07
mom is quite elderly so she doesn't knit as much now, but my
3:12
two sisters and I get together with my mom (particularly before
3:18
the pandemic we would) for what we would call a girls weekend.
3:23
We all had our knitting projects and have tea and good food and
3:29
wine and just really enjoy a nice weekend together, and
3:34
that's such precious time when I think about it now, that we just
3:39
enjoyed one another's company, but it was always around
3:44
knitting too. Sometimes we would go to the local yarn shop where
3:50
my mom lives and just enjoy that as well. So now we all share
3:55
patterns. We ask each other about different techniques we
4:01
might have questions about, and so it's really become something
4:06
that I'm very... I'm very close to my sisters but it's been
4:11
really a nice thing to bond us as well.
4:18
connection with your family now?
4:20
Susan Yaguda: Yeah!
4:22
Mia Hobbs: And do your kids still knit?
4:25
Susan Yaguda: I have a son and a daughter, and thinking back like
4:30
20 years ago, I did teach my son how to knit and he's actually
4:36
very good. He didn't keep it up, though. And my daughter, she'll
4:40
pick it up from time to time. She actually lives in the UK
4:44
now. And so, you know, being away from home has been
4:51
difficult during these past couple of years. And so I really
4:55
have encouraged her because it's been so helpful to me to have
5:00
something in my hands. And so she'll pick it up now and then,
5:04
and does still enjoy it, so who knows what she might do in 20
5:11
years? So we'll see.
5:12
Mia Hobbs: I think lots of people that I've interviewed,
5:14
and certainly for me, have had long dormant periods where they
5:17
didn't knit, and then suddenly it was the right moment in their
5:20
life, and they pick it up and kind of go with it again. You
5:27
said there are many ways it's been helpful for you. I'd love
5:29
to hear more about that: about why you knit and how it's been
5:33
helpful for you.
5:35
Susan Yaguda: So the practicality of it - I really
5:39
enjoy giving homemade gifts, handmade gifts to people. So
5:45
that's definitely part of it. I'm a little choosier now, who I
5:50
gift with my knitting, because I think I hear other knitters say
5:53
too, some people don't quite get it. But definitely, I have an
6:00
appreciative pool of family and friends, and enjoy doing that
6:05
for them. But really it's a mindfulness practice for me.
6:10
It's definitely a way... sometimes for me in the morning,
6:15
when I'm having my coffee, I'll just knit even if it's just for
6:18
five minutes. It just sets my day straight with a calmer
6:25
attitude, I think, about going into the day. And then
6:29
definitely towards the end of the day, too, I might have a cup
6:32
of tea and just pick up my knitting again. Even if I only
6:37
have a few minutes to do it, I still appreciate those moments,
6:41
just to de-stress, to kind of let go of anything that was
6:46
going on during the day so that I can get a restful night's
6:50
sleep. It really is a very big mindfulness practice for me.
6:59
Other than my sisters, I don't knit a whole lot with others.
7:04
But there is a sense of community, I think, around the
7:09
knitting world, whether that's through social media or going to
7:15
a local yarn shop. You can always talk to a knitter about
7:21
what they're doing, what they're interested in, and it inevitably
7:24
leads to other conversations too, that keep that kind of
7:28
sense of connectivity amongst us. And I think, particularly
7:33
during this pandemic time where we often feel disconnected, it's
7:39
really an important tool to to being connected with one
7:47
another. In my work it's really been important to connect with
7:57
patients even, and to allow them to connect with one another. So
8:01
I would say between being able to produce something that is
8:07
homemade and I can gift from my heart, to the mindfulness
8:11
practice, and then the connectivity piece of it, too,
8:16
it's just been a really rich hobby to have in my life.
8:20
Mia Hobbs: I'd love to go on to ask you, in a minute, more about
8:24
your work and how you've used knitting there. But first of
8:27
all, I'm curious for yourself, like have you got specific
8:30
things you prefer to knit? Does it matter what the knitting is,
8:34
in terms of the techniques?
8:36
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. So I usually have two things typically going
8:41
at once, and one is kind of a no-brainer - I can sit in a
8:47
meeting and it helps me pay attention, but not have to count
8:53
or follow a pattern or that type of thing. And then I like to
8:59
knit just about anything. I've gotten into socks and go in
9:06
spurts with that. Mittens... I had like a run on mittens! And
9:12
I'm working on a sweater right now for a friend's birthday.
9:17
Shawls... I really, really love to make shawls, especially if
9:21
the designer has some really clear instructions. Hats off to
9:27
designers! I think that it's just magic what they do, you
9:31
know, to be able to create a pattern, put it on paper, so
9:35
that I can just blindly follow the directions and then voila!
9:40
Here comes some beautiful piece, you know, just because they've
9:43
had that skill set to do that. So I do love to make shawls. I
9:48
haven't done certain techniques, like brioche I haven't tried.
9:55
Mia Hobbs: I haven't either, actually! I wondered whether
9:58
maybe this was the year for me. [Laughs]
10:00
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, me too! [Laughs] Yeah, so maybe try
10:04
that. I've done some lace work, and again I've enjoyed that,you
10:10
know, as long as I am able to pay attention to it as well. So
10:14
having something that's mindless, and then having
10:16
something where I do have to pay attention a little bit. I love
10:19
cables - to me they're magic as well, just how slipping one
10:24
direction or another just makes this beautiful pattern! And it's
10:29
fun to work on those too.
10:32
Mia Hobbs: So have you got times when you feel like you need the
10:36
more complicated pattern? It sounds like there are times
10:40
where you need the simple one, which is if you've got to pay
10:42
attention to something else. I'm interested in the times you
10:45
might need the more complicated one.
10:47
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, when you have to pay attention to
10:50
something, follow directions, make sure you're counting
10:54
properly, it kind of takes your mind away from other things that
11:01
might have been creating stress in your life or things you kind
11:08
of need to let go of. It's a nice distraction, if you will.
11:13
And then after working on something for a bit, the stuff
11:18
that was bothering you previously just doesn't seem to
11:21
be a big deal anymore and you can kind of let it go until
11:25
maybe the next day. And you'll address it with fresh eyes and
11:29
be able to maybe be more productive in how to manage
11:34
something that was going on. So there's also definitely times
11:38
where I'm like, "I can't concentrate on this right now.
11:41
I'm just going to enjoy the soothing aspect of the rhythm of
11:45
knitting and just feeling it in my hands, and go forward with
11:52
that, too."
11:52
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. You're a nurse, working in oncology, and I'm
11:57
really interested to hear about how you've brought knitting into
12:00
your place of work. I'd love to hear more about that.
12:04
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, thank you! So I manage a team of
12:10
integrative providers. We have a wide array of services. So we
12:18
don't treat cancer itself, but we help support people through
12:22
their cancer journey at any aspect along the way. And part
12:26
of my team is we have a group of artists. And so one of my
12:31
artists had started with us as a volunteer, and then we were able
12:35
to contract and bring her on, and she's just amazing. My whole
12:39
team is amazing, but she was really just open to anything.
12:43
And I said, "Hey, I really want to start a knitting and crochet
12:49
circle for our patients and care partners." And she was like,
12:54
"Sure, okay, but I need to learn how." [Laughs] So she went off
12:59
and took some lessons at a local yarn shop. And, of course, this
13:04
was several years ago, so she's a great knitter now, as well.
13:10
And so she started this group. Now it's on Zoom because we're
13:16
not meeting in person (hopefully, at some point in the
13:19
future), but I'm really happy that we were able to still
13:21
provide things virtually even, to help people stay connected.
13:26
And so the purpose of the group was not to do great knitting,
13:35
just like the purpose of the art programme is not to create great
13:38
art but it's really to use it as a processing opportunity to have
13:45
patients and care partners support one another. There's
13:49
something about when people have something that they're working
13:53
on in their hands, and for this group, obviously, it was
13:57
knitting, the conversation becomes much better flowing, I
14:04
think. People feel a little bit more comfortable sharing. They
14:10
find that they have shared experiences and can maybe have
14:16
their own experience authenticated because they're
14:19
hearing it from somebody else. It's just a very healing process
14:24
to have that type of support. And so Deborah, our artist that
14:29
was facilitating this and continues to, really her role is
14:34
just to maintain inclusivity with the group, to make sure
14:41
that the environment remains positive, that people feel
14:44
comfortable talking and sharing. And it's been just a really
14:49
positive experience all around. We also had some fun things come
14:57
out of that for community. So in our community, there's several
15:04
organisations. We're very philanthropically dependent, and
15:08
they help support us. And one is an organisation called 24
15:12
Foundation that does a 24-hour bike ride every summer in
15:19
Charlotte, where I live. It's a fundraiser, and a lot of those
15:24
funds go to support the programmes that I manage. And so
15:27
we got a bicycle, an older bicycle, and the people in the
15:33
knitting and crochet circle yarn bombed it! It's so cool-looking.
15:38
They did an amazing job. They had yarn bombed two chairs the
15:43
year previously, and we displayed them at a gala that we
15:47
had too, but this bike was something that we could give
15:51
back to the organisation that supports us, just as a way to
15:57
say thank you for all. So we bring it out when we have events
16:03
with them, and they in turn have gifted it back to us, and it's
16:06
actually hanging in our cancer rehab gym. But it's always just
16:12
a really nice reminder that we are all community supporting one
16:18
another through that. So that's been just fun. The chairs that
16:22
they did, it was really whimsical, little mice and
16:26
spider webs, and they did a beautiful job with that. And
16:29
those are on display in our cancer institution now, so
16:32
anybody can walk by and just enjoy taking a look at them. And
16:37
then from a medical perspective, I mean this is purely anecdotal,
16:45
but we had several patients who got chemotherapies that cause
16:51
neurotoxicity, and they can get neuropathy in their hands and
16:56
their feet, like a tingling and numbness. It really can be
17:00
distressing and impactful on things, even like buttoning a
17:04
shirt or walking safely, that type of thing. And one woman who
17:10
was really involved in this group also said that the
17:16
knitting helped her neuropathy, and she said, "If I could figure
17:19
out a way to knit with my toes, I could address it in my feet as
17:25
well!" But she swore that it was just keeping herself moving like
17:29
that, and maybe the tactile part of knitting, that helped her. So
17:34
that would be something that I would love to study at some
17:37
point. Can we really be impactful on that with something
17:41
so simple and low cost and extremely low risk, and make an
17:47
impact on something that really can be distressing to somebody
17:51
who's gone through cancer treatment.
17:54
Mia Hobbs: What's the kind of feedback you've had from people
17:56
who've engaged in the knitting, so some of the people receiving
18:00
treatment for cancer?
18:03
Susan Yaguda: It's really heartwarming to go into the
18:07
infusion suite and see people there knitting as a way to pass
18:14
the time. Oftentimes, they're there for several hours.
18:17
Mia Hobbs: Is that when they're receiving their chemotherapy?
18:20
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. And they really appreciate the community.
18:26
They come together when... you know, inevitably we have to say
18:33
goodbye to certain people at different times, and they really
18:37
come together as a community to support one another through that
18:40
grieving process. I think it also shines the light on...
18:46
well, for all of us but especially if you also are
18:48
dealing with cancer... your own mortality, and really coming to
18:54
terms with that, because you've lost somebody that you've been
18:57
close to. So I really appreciate that they form kind of a support
19:05
group amongst themselves. So that has been definitely one of
19:10
the outcomes that I was hoping for. The other thing is they
19:14
really have appreciated, particularly during the
19:17
pandemic, having knitting as a hobby to continue with during
19:24
their time when they've had to be more isolated, as well. The
19:29
other thing that is so cool about this group is they also...
19:33
(this wasn't intentional, they just kind of came up with this
19:36
organically)... they'll knit caps for patients who have lost
19:43
their hair because of chemotherapy, scarves,
19:48
fingerless mitts, that type of thing, and then they go to our
19:51
resource centre and then anybody who's in need can take something
19:57
like that. To know that it came from somebody else who has
20:02
walked your path as well, I think is really meaningful.
20:08
Mia Hobbs: There's a project here actually, that I've seen on
20:10
the news, called Knitted Knockers. I don't know if you've
20:12
heard of that?
20:12
Susan Yaguda: Oh yeah! We did that. People continue to make
20:17
knockers. It's really taken off, hasn't it? It's so fun. And, you
20:22
know, women who require a prosthesis really like the
20:27
knitted knockers. They're soft, they're light, they're washable,
20:33
you can form them to fit yourselves perfectly, they're
20:38
free... you know, prostheses can be very expensive. With some
20:43
local yarn shops in our community, we did a knitted
20:48
knocker campaign, and then the fire department has a pink
20:53
firetruck and so they stopped at the yarn shops, and we filled
20:58
the firetruck up with knitted knockers! There were bags of
21:03
them! [Laughs] And then they delivered them to the Cancer
21:09
Institute, then we had to sort them and get them where they
21:14
needed to be in that way. But that was such, again, another
21:19
fun community project.
21:21
Mia Hobbs: It sounds like some of the people in the group have
21:24
been very inventive about finding ways to have a more kind
21:28
of group knitting experience. Because I guess a lot of us,
21:32
even if we're knitting in a group, often the project is just
21:35
ours, I suppose, or we might be knitting something that's just
21:38
ours. It's not that often you knit something that is part of a
21:41
kind of cooperative project.
21:43
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, we really saw it particularly when they
21:46
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And have you had the opportunity to go and
21:47
were able to meet in person and work on the yarn bombing pieces,
21:53
because they had to kind of plan it out together. And again,
21:58
nobody was telling anybody, "Here, you have to do this." It
22:03
just all came very organically. But it was fun to kind of be a
22:08
fly on the wall and just peek in and watch them and hear their
22:13
conversations. It just really fills my heart because that was
22:19
exactly what I wanted when I said, "Can we start this?"
22:26
join in with knitting with them at all? Or is that difficult?
22:29
Susan Yaguda: I haven't since they have gone to Zoom, and it's
22:33
also during my work day. So sometimes I don't have the time
22:38
to do that during the work day. But when they did meet in
22:42
person, I would often just stop by, because they're lovely
22:47
people anyway so I would always love to catch up with them
22:51
regardless, but just to again, like I said, hear their
22:55
conversation and see what they were working on. To see them
23:00
helping each other, because there were some that were very,
23:05
very skilled knitters helping others that are maybe new at
23:09
something, new to knitting or new at a technique, and really
23:14
to have that fellowship within the group is really precious to watch.
23:19
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And that's brilliant for both parties,
23:23
isn't it? It's brilliant to be somebody who can share a skill.
23:26
That gives you a sense of self esteem, I guess, doesn't it? And
23:29
also to be able to be somewhere where you think, "Oh, these
23:32
experienced people can help me with this thing I'd like to get
23:35
better at."
23:36
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, definitely. It definitely goes both
23:39
directions.
23:40
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And you mentioned that you've been
23:42
involved in a research project to do with knitting. I'd love to
23:46
hear a bit more about that.
23:47
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, sure. So one thing that patients receiving
23:52
chemotherapy sometimes experience is something called
23:56
chemo brain. And if you're not familiar with that, it is just
24:03
difficulty after finishing chemo or even during, with tasks that
24:09
normally would have come easily to you. So it could be things
24:13
like sequencing or memory issues or word finding even sometimes,
24:19
and it's very distressing to patients to experience this. And
24:26
it's especially distressing when they finally finish treatment
24:30
and then they're like, "Okay, I'm going back to work." You
24:32
know, it's like some sense of hopefully some normalcy in their
24:35
lives again, but then they're having really some difficulties
24:39
functioning to their pre-cancer diagnosis levels. And so one of
24:47
my colleagues is a neuropsychologist and she
24:51
started knitting because we... This is another story, but we
24:55
started with my teammates. We had a couple of knit nights and
25:00
taught them how to knit, and several of my teammates
25:03
continued to knit as well, which has been really fun. And Jen,
25:08
the neuropsychologist, is one of those that has continued to
25:11
that. And so finally, I was like, "I know how knitting makes
25:15
me feel, as far as calming my mind and all of that." And we
25:20
got talking about the bilateral aspects of knitting, and we also
25:26
were thinking about chemo brain. It's not fully understood, why
25:32
it occurs. It could be related to inflammation or who knows.
25:36
But we were looking through the literature and did not see
25:40
anything that looked at increasing neuroplasticity
25:44
around cancer-related cognitive impairments. And so we wanted to
25:50
see: could teaching somebody to knit make an impact on their
25:55
cognitive impairment? So we did a pilot study, and we had the
26:02
support from Universal Yarn, which is a big yarn company,
26:05
particularly here in the US - I think it is in Europe, too. They
26:09
have a headquarters very close to Charlotte, and they provided
26:12
us with yarn and with needles and really put together these
26:15
nice kits for the study. And we enrolled patients who had
26:21
finished the chemotherapy and were self-describing some
26:26
cognitive impairment. And they could not have been knitters
26:31
before, so it had to be completely a new skill. And then
26:36
they came in and we gave them a battery of neuropsych tests,
26:42
which are all validated for the age group within the inclusion
26:45
criteria. And then we had a volunteer working with us, and
26:50
she taught them to knit. And so she would have groups of maybe
26:53
1-3 women. They were all women. It wasn't designed to be all
26:57
women, but that's the way it fell, which I think is another
27:01
thing I'd like to change at some point along the road.
27:04
Mia Hobbs: So that was who opted in?
27:05
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. They learned to knit. They got a project - it
27:10
was a scarf. And then they had another lesson, we gave them
27:15
videos, we checked in with them every week, and then 8 weeks
27:20
later they came back in. They had to have at least 8 inches of
27:25
their scarf done so we knew that they were doing it. So we had to
27:31
measure it, and then they were re-tested. And what we found was
27:36
really fascinating, in my opinion. All of them tested
27:41
within the normal range at the start; however, it may have been
27:46
low for them. They were all college educated, they were all
27:51
professionals, that's the group that we got for this pilot.
27:57
However, the distress levels were quite high across the
28:01
group. Post-intervention, they all improved cognitively, in
28:06
certain domains at least. I think almost 70% of the group
28:11
improved cognitively in at least one of the domains that we
28:16
tested. Across the board, they all significantly reported less
28:22
distress. That was just really validating, that there's
28:27
something going on, whether it is neuroplasticity, or whether
28:32
it's decreasing stress so you're able to manage some of those
28:37
challenges better. I mean, who knows? We're really eager to dig
28:43
a little bit deeper into the whole 'what's happening behind
28:48
the veil' kind of thing. We had to close accrual early because
28:53
Mia Hobbs: Because like you said, from a research
28:53
of the pandemic. We ended up with 16 people, I think, going
28:58
through and we'd wanted to get 18, I think. So just a little
29:00
perspective, it would be great. It's such a shame you had to
29:03
bit short of our original goal, but enough to have some
29:08
significant data. And to this day, I hear from people in the
29:10
finish early because of COVID. And it'd be great to do a trial
29:13
study and they're still knitting! That's another win of
29:18
the whole thing. So I look at this as such a low-hanging fruit
29:20
with a control group and lots of measures. But even without that,
29:23
for an intervention for a condition that is incredibly
29:28
distressing for our patients, and how simple it could be, how
29:31
it sounds like it has offered a great benefit, even just
29:33
inexpensive it could be, how low risk it could be to really
29:39
provide this for people who are interested.
29:41
anecdotally, or in terms of stress reduction, or giving
29:50
people a coping mechanism to take with them for the rest of
30:00
their lives. That sounds like it actually has been a super
30:10
helpful intervention already.
30:15
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. And the neuropsych tasks were all
30:17
validated tasks, so we really felt confident about those. They
30:22
weren't tasks that you could do well with repetition, you know,
30:27
we made sure we didn't have that practice benefit with the tests
30:33
that she chose. So we do know that there was benefit. But
30:38
yeah, to have a control group would have been nice, since they
30:41
were each their own control, but there's so many areas that we
30:47
could dig in and explore further that it makes it exciting, for
30:52
sure.
30:54
Mia Hobbs: And I think you mentioned, while we were
30:56
messaging about setting up this conversation, that you'd quite
31:00
like to have a group for professionals as well, so for
31:03
healthcare staff. I haven't done it formally for that purpose,
31:08
but in the past I've informally ended up having groups of
31:12
colleagues in health settings to mainly create gifts for somebody
31:18
who's having a baby, but have really noticed the positive
31:22
effect it's had on team morale, and that we've had different
31:25
conversations, that people have been kind of taking a lunch
31:29
break for half an hour, once a week, to sit and knit together,
31:33
and that it really did feel beneficial, I suppose, on a team
31:36
level. I'm interested in what your hopes were for that.
31:39
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, definitely. So we did do for just my
31:45
department. At the time, we were in a different location while
31:48
our current building was being built, and it was tight
31:52
quarters, you know, which has its own challenges. But we had a
31:58
couple of knit nights, and it was just a time again, for
32:04
whomever wanted to, to come together, learn to knit. And
32:08
then, similar to what you're talking about, we did find
32:13
people sitting at lunchtime knitting. And then we also found
32:19
we were able to help each other out with questions about a
32:23
skill, or, "Oh, I dropped a stitch. What happened here?",
32:26
that type of thing. And it did allow us as a group of
32:32
colleagues to interact on a bit of a different level. And then
32:38
several of my colleagues really use knitting now as a self care
32:43
practice. It's a relaxing thing that they go to daily, almost,
32:52
in order to just take better care of themselves. So that's
32:55
been really positive. I think, you know, it's no surprise to
33:00
anybody how strained the health care profession is right now,
33:06
globally. And interestingly, before the pandemic, I had been
33:12
working with some other people on my team on moral injury and
33:17
resilience, and what can we do to help support one another, to
33:25
build up resilience and address moral injury in a positive way.
33:31
And then to think that we were doing that work before COVID,
33:37
and now what people are having to deal with still two years
33:43
later, it's unfathomable. And I really feel like we need to now
33:54
kind of shift gears and look at trauma care. How are we helping
34:01
our colleagues through trauma, because that's what this has
34:05
been, for so many people. And I don't want to simplify things to
34:12
the point of saying, "Oh, just give everybody knitting needles
34:15
and some yarn, and it's all fine." But I do think that
34:20
knitting serves a role in the toolbox as a self care practice,
34:27
as a way of soothing. We know that the rhythm of the movement,
34:34
of using both hands, has neurological impact. And so I do
34:42
think that it could be a useful tool for colleagues to be able
34:47
to use for self care. There was a study that some nurses in
34:53
Washington did, that I think Project Knitwell helped support.
34:58
And again, this was several years ago, with oncology nurses.
35:02
They taught them to knit, and the outcomes and the feedback
35:07
from those who participated was really positive, how it was
35:11
really soothing. And when I was re-reading the manuscript,
35:17
"soothing" kind of kept coming up, and I kind of feel like
35:21
yeah, it is soothing. And that's maybe part of the benefit of us
35:25
bringing it to somebody. We're not going to fix the issues in
35:30
our healthcare system by knitting, but if we can help
35:35
somebody feel better for a little bit of time and then be
35:39
able to be a bit more refreshed to go handle what they need to
35:43
handle, then maybe that's our role at this point. So I'm
35:49
looking at creating honestly like a toolkit for my
35:56
colleagues, our teammates across our system, that has a variety
36:03
of ways to take care of yourself and to address the trauma of
36:10
what you have experienced during all this time. So I think it
36:15
will definitely have a role there.
36:17
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think that's really true. I've had quite a
36:19
few health professionals get in touch with me since starting the
36:21
podcast, talking about the idea of having a group with their
36:26
colleagues. And I think the tricky thing is, like you said,
36:30
it doesn't have to be just knitting, and knitting isn't
36:32
going to be for everybody, but the idea of maybe the system or
36:37
prioritising self care for the health care staff, because you
36:42
can't pour from an empty cup. And in the pandemic, it started
36:46
off as a sprint and it's now a marathon. But people are just
36:50
getting slowly more exhausted, I guess, and like you said,
36:54
traumatised. But it is interesting, the idea of one of
36:59
the trauma therapies, EMDR, is focused on using bilateral
37:04
movements a bit similar to knitting. And when I spoke to
37:08
Betsan Corkhill, I interviewed her for series one about that,
37:13
and she said there have been ideas about doing some studies
37:16
using knitting as the bilateral movement in the EMDR, so trauma
37:21
processing. So it'd be really interesting. I think the tricky
37:24
thing is funding for all of these studies.
37:27
Susan Yaguda: Most definitely.
37:28
Mia Hobbs: And also for the self care for the health
37:31
professionals! That's also the problem, isn't it? Getting that
37:34
as a priority and funding it.
37:37
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, most definitely. However, if you look
37:40
at the cost of replacing a critical care nurse, for
37:44
example, it's quite costly, especially somebody who has a
37:49
lot of experience. And then who are we replacing them with? So I
37:58
think that's one thing. And, you know, I'm talking about health
38:01
care professionals but it's really across the board. My
38:04
heart breaks for our teachers, for parents with young children,
38:08
and how they're managing all of this and trying to work and keep
38:15
their children happy and healthy. It's across the board -
38:21
service providers of any sort. Our resources are not an
38:26
unending bucket. There is a bottom to that. So if we don't
38:32
start to really take care of what we've got, it's going to be
38:37
quite impactful.
38:39
Mia Hobbs: Interesting, because I was going into a primary
38:41
school to offer a therapeutic knitting group, and a number of
38:44
the staff said, "When are you doing one for staff?" And I also
38:49
love the idea of the parent and child knitting group that you
38:53
started off talking about. I think that's a lovely idea, to
38:57
be able to have an activity to share between parents and
39:03
children. I'd love to ask you about a significant knitting
39:07
project, Susan. Can you think of one, for yourself?
39:09
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, certainly. It's so interesting to hear
39:13
other people's stories about knitting through grief. And I
39:18
think that, for me, I have a pair of socks... it was just
39:23
Mia Hobbs: I guess you want to take really good care of them!
39:24
when I was just getting to knit socks, so I still was not very
39:29
confident about what I was doing. I had to pay attention
39:34
quite some bit. But my dad had gotten ill and finally we got
39:40
him into hospice care, which was such a blessing, and I'll never
39:46
forget sitting with my mom. It was New Year's Eve that year,
39:51
and it was just quiet in his room, and I really just wanted
39:57
to be there for her, as well. And so I had my socks I was
40:02
working on during that time. And I also wanted to give her the
40:08
space to to be with this man that she'd been with for 70
40:13
years, during his final days. So I could work on my socks and
40:18
kind of be there for my mom, but also be in the background for
40:24
her to have some quiet time with him. He ended up dying, like two
40:30
days later, very peacefully. And those socks are just so special
40:36
to me because it just reminds me of how blessed I am to have had
40:42
him for all these years as a father, but also how blessed I
40:42
Susan Yaguda: I do, yeah!
40:47
am to have been in that space with him and my mom. I'm just so
40:53
fortunate to be able to be there, and be there with both of
40:58
them. And for myself, as well. So those are my special socks. I
41:04
don't wear them a whole lot, but I pull them out once in a while.
41:07
Mia Hobbs: It's interesting, Susan, that you mentioned that
41:17
actually, because I think, like you said, grief has come up
41:20
quite a lot when I ask people about a significant knitting
41:22
project. And actually, you're not the first person to mention
41:25
the idea of knitting allowing you to offer kind of
41:29
companionship, but without conversation. So that's
41:33
something that maybe in the grief period... or also other
41:37
people have spoken about being with somebody who's unwell in a
41:41
hospital, and that the idea is you don't necessarily have to
41:44
say anything. And I think in a bereavement period, often there
41:48
isn't anything you can say that can make it any better, but that
41:51
you want to kind of be alongside somebody, and that knitting has
41:55
offered an almost unique way of being able to do that, where it
41:58
feels okay that there isn't a conversation happening at the
42:01
same time.
42:02
Susan Yaguda: Yeah. You're just holding space.
42:06
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So those are your special socks. And it
42:12
sounds like you've got a very positive relationship to them
42:16
now, even though it was from quite a sad time, in a way,
42:19
also.
42:21
Susan Yaguda: Yeah, most definitely. He lived such an
42:27
amazing life, so it wasn't like there was regret by any means.
42:32
And I think that makes a huge difference in how you process
42:36
loss. I miss him, you know, I still hear his voice telling me
42:40
different things and stuff. But, again, it really comes from a
42:44
place of gratitude, for sure.
42:47
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. So I always end the podcast with
42:51
asking: what's the greatest gift knitting has given you for the
42:54
rest of your life? I don't know what you think of when I ask
42:57
that question.
42:59
Susan Yaguda: Well, it's hard to choose just one. [Laughs]
43:05
Definitely, it's that anchor to a mindfulness practice which has
43:11
been really important to me, particularly through the
43:16
pandemic as well. And again, I love the connection with my
43:23
sisters and my mom, that we have that in common. And then the
43:31
ability just to make something and share a bit of myself with
43:34
somebody else, so that they know a piece of me was with them,
43:40
whether it's a shawl or a sweater or a pair of mittens or
43:43
whatever.
43:44
Mia Hobbs: When you say that, are you talking about gifts?
43:46
Susan Yaguda: Yeah.
43:50
Mia Hobbs: And also in the conversations you have sometimes
43:53
with your patients about knitting - I guess that's a way
43:57
of sharing yourself too, isn't it, to talk about what you're
44:01
knitting or what they're knitting?
44:03
Susan Yaguda: It is. It's a great way to form a connection,
44:05
and then people tend to feel safer, it seems, to talk about
44:10
other things once once you've kind of formed that bond, if you
44:16
will.
44:17
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, sure. Susan, it's been such a pleasure to
44:21
talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
44:24
Susan Yaguda: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for
44:27
the work that you're doing. You're shining this great light
44:31
on the importance of using knitting and crafting for our
44:36
wellbeing and I really appreciate that you're doing
44:39
that.
44:40
Mia Hobbs: Oh thank you so much.
44:48
Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit podcast. If
44:51
you'd like to find out more about therapeutic knitting, you
44:53
can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic or at my
44:57
website www.therapeuticknitting.org. If
45:00
you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if
45:02
you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This
45:05
will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the
45:08
therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to
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subscribe too. Thank you!