Latest / Sales Pipeline Radio / Why Top-Down Sales Pitches Fall Flat in Japan

Transcript

Why Top-Down Sales Pitches Fall Flat in Japan · Sales Pipeline Radio

• 0:16
  Matt Heinz: All right, we're back live at Forrester B2B Summit
• 0:19
  here on the marketplace floor.
• 0:21
  I am very honored to have joining us now, Ichiro Niwayama.
• 0:25
  He's the president and CEO of Symphony Marketing out of Japan.
• 0:30
  Ichiro, thank you so much for joining us.
• 0:32
  Ichiro Niwayama: Thank you for having me, and it's very honor to me because I'm
• 0:37
  being a longtime listener of your channel.
• 0:40
  Matt Heinz: I will never forget — I was at, it was at a Marketo conference.
• 0:46
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 0:46
  Matt Heinz: And you walked by me, and you said, "Are you Matt Heinz?"
• 0:49
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 0:50
  Matt Heinz: And that was just kind of a cathartic moment for
• 0:54
  me — that someone recognized me.
• 0:56
  Yeah,
• 0:56
  Ichiro Niwayama: yeah,
• 0:57
  Matt Heinz: yeah.
• 0:57
  And I think you wanted a selfie.
• 0:58
  I'm like, "What is happening here?"
• 0:59
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 1:00
  Matt Heinz: But I appreciate that.
• 1:01
  Then that—
• 1:01
  — Ichiro Niwayama: time that you explained to me why Ichiro is a special name
• 1:05
  for you because you live in Seattle.
• 1:07
  Matt Heinz: I live in Seattle.
• 1:08
  Yeah.
• 1:08
  Yes.
• 1:09
  And what's fun is I've told a few people I'm interviewing Ichiro on the show floor.
• 1:15
  And, you know, in here, everyone just thinks of the baseball player.
• 1:19
  And so literally, I'm sure I will see him this weekend.
• 1:21
  He's — his number 51 is retired in Seattle.
• 1:25
  And another famous player in Mariners history, number 51, was Randy Johnson.
• 1:29
  His jersey's being retired as we record this, this Saturday.
• 1:32
  I will be there.
• 1:33
  I'm sure Ichiro will be there as well.
• 1:35
  Such an icon, and so beloved in Seattle.
• 1:40
  But, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:41
  So you founded Symphony Marketing in 1990.
• 1:45
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 1:46
  Matt Heinz: 35 years building it into really Japan's leading
• 1:48
  B2B demand gen marketing agency.
• 1:52
  Talk a little bit about that journey.
• 1:54
  You know, were you an entrepreneur before?
• 1:57
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 1:58
  Matt Heinz: And then what's it been like sort of building a business like that?
• 2:01
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 2:02
  When I established my company in Japan, zero know the B2B marketing market.
• 2:10
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 2:14
  Ex—
• 2:14
  — Ichiro Niwayama: exactly.
• 2:14
  Zero.
• 2:14
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 2:14
  Ichiro Niwayama: So — but 90% of our clients are large,
• 2:19
  foreign-operated companies.
• 2:22
  For example—
• 2:22
  the SAP
• 2:22
  — HP or Oracle, like this.
• 2:25
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 2:26
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 2:26
  And, but I was very lucky because I got a job and, on the other hand,
• 2:34
  I study a lot from our client.
• 2:37
  Matt Heinz: Yep.
• 2:37
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 2:39
  Matt Heinz: You've written eight books on B2B markets.
• 2:42
  Ichiro Niwayama: And the next book released will be June.
• 2:47
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 2:47
  Yeah.
• 2:47
  So we'll have plenty of time to read that before the next edition of the IGC
• 2:51
  Harmonics conference in August in Tokyo.
• 2:55
  I am honored to be joining you guys this year.
• 2:57
  I'm so excited to get out with you there.
• 2:59
  Your — I believe this is your last book, The Science of Profit Making, in B2B.
• 3:03
  Talk about — you've talked about the evolution of B2B marketing in Japan.
• 3:09
  That a single-digit percent of Japanese B2B companies even
• 3:12
  have a marketing department.
• 3:13
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 3:14
  Matt Heinz: And I think if I look across this floor here, there's a lot
• 3:17
  of teams here with marketing departments that may be more arts and crafts, more
• 3:21
  focused on clicks and likes, but at least there's a marketing department.
• 3:27
  I didn't realize it was so rare—
• 3:30
  in Japan.
• 3:31
  Ichiro Niwayama: And it's my opinion, but I think the Japan B2B
• 3:34
  marketing is 15 years behind US.
• 3:38
  Matt Heinz: Yep.
• 3:38
  Ichiro Niwayama: And, the — for example, the last year my company
• 3:45
  conducted a research project.
• 3:47
  And we have 1,200 listed B2B companies in Japan.
• 3:54
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 3:55
  Ichiro Niwayama: And there's
• 3:58
  only
• 4:00
  7% of those companies have a title of the CMO.
• 4:04
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 4:05
  Ichiro Niwayama: And less than 20% of those companies have
• 4:08
  the marketing organization.
• 4:10
  Matt Heinz: Wow.
• 4:11
  Wow.
• 4:12
  Why is that?
• 4:13
  Is that a cultural thing?
• 4:14
  Is that just a difference in how corporations are set
• 4:16
  up and prioritize needs?
• 4:18
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, because many of Japanese companies
• 4:24
  made the great quality product.
• 4:27
  And they made so strong soldiers.
• 4:32
  The — maybe the many executives say it's good enough for the label name.
• 4:39
  And there's — who need marketing?
• 4:42
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 4:43
  Interesting.
• 4:43
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 4:55
  Matt Heinz: You've been talking about account-based marketing.
• 4:57
  You talk frequently about — a lot of Japanese marketing teams are a little
• 4:58
  behind where maybe others are in the US, maybe in Europe, but you've been talking
• 4:58
  about account-based marketing longer than I think we have here in the States.
• 4:59
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:00
  Matt Heinz: And I think you've made the argument that it is especially
• 5:03
  suited to Japanese businesses because of the way corporate decisions
• 5:06
  are made in those companies.
• 5:08
  Can you unpack that to help people understand what that means?
• 5:12
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:13
  Maybe you can't believe, but in Japan, many people — whole
• 5:20
  life, one company — still.
• 5:23
  So the long-time workers — it's a very fit from the account-based marketing, because
• 5:30
  account-based marketing is a very good connection with client and the vendors.
• 5:35
  Yeah.
• 5:36
  And the vendor side is long-time workers too, and
• 5:43
  I think that's a benefit with ABM.
• 5:47
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 5:47
  Well, that decision-making where, I think in the US we're used to what
• 5:53
  in the sales culture they call VITO.
• 5:55
  It stands for very important top officer.
• 5:58
  And so say when decisions are top-down, that middle-up concept — I think we're
• 6:02
  starting to see a little bit of that where you've got an executive that
• 6:05
  says, "I'm gonna help set priorities
• 6:09
  — Ichiro Niwayama: but I want my team to go do research
• 6:11
  — Matt Heinz: and my team to help vet certain opportunities." Yeah.
• 6:14
  And as the buying group grows, we're starting to see that motion where
• 6:17
  that senior decision-maker's still very important, but if you're not
• 6:21
  treating those in the middle of the organization with the respect — and
• 6:25
  with the role that they have — you're going to disrespect their buying
• 6:29
  process and decision-making process.
• 6:30
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 6:31
  Yes.
• 6:31
  Matt Heinz: And that is not a good thing.
• 6:33
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 6:34
  Matt Heinz: So you work with countless companies in Japan helping
• 6:38
  them with their B2B marketing.
• 6:39
  I'm sure you also see a lot of companies trying to market into Japan — trying
• 6:45
  to market into the Japanese market.
• 6:46
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 6:47
  Matt Heinz: What are some mistakes you often see from global companies when
• 6:51
  they're trying to build a market in Japan?
• 6:54
  Ichiro Niwayama: Many companies struggle in the Japanese market.
• 6:59
  And they said the Japanese market is very hard.
• 7:04
  But I think — always said — if you choose the right partner, Japan is no
• 7:12
  longer a country mysterious to you.
• 7:15
  And but, it's a little bit different.
• 7:18
  Different market.
• 7:20
  For example, many of the Western countries, the
• 7:23
  decision-making is top-down.
• 7:24
  But we are the bottom-up.
• 7:27
  The very bottom.
• 7:28
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 7:29
  Yeah.
• 7:29
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 7:29
  Sometimes young people — decision-making, yes.
• 7:32
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 7:32
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, and they write in the approval document.
• 7:35
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 7:35
  Ichiro Niwayama: And they need more than 10 stamps.
• 7:38
  But it's okay.
• 7:40
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 7:40
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 7:40
  Matt Heinz: So it's applying kind of more of a Western sales philosophy — and
• 7:44
  just saying, "Oh, I assume that'll work in Japan." It won't, and it doesn't.
• 7:49
  Is it just ineffective, or does it get to the level of disrespectful?
• 7:52
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 7:53
  Matt Heinz: Is it — how is that perceived?
• 7:55
  Ichiro Niwayama: No, I have many foreign clients.
• 7:59
  And the sales manager or marketing manager says, "First
• 8:03
  target is a C-class, the CXO."
• 8:06
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 8:06
  Ichiro Niwayama: And I said, "Don't need." Because the CXO has no knowledge.
• 8:13
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 8:13
  Ichiro Niwayama: And but so they believe the young people — and they
• 8:17
  choose — next time we buy, we bought.
• 8:21
  Matt Heinz: Yep.
• 8:21
  Ichiro Niwayama: Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  Matt Heinz: I wanna talk about not this new book coming up, but the book
• 8:25
  Science of Profit Making, because you talk about something that I — that
• 8:30
  we believe strongly in as well — this concept of marketing orchestration.
• 8:34
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 8:34
  Matt Heinz: Right?
• 8:35
  And the discipline of sort of harmonizing organizational
• 8:37
  resources, data, and technology.
• 8:39
  That is missing.
• 8:42
  So you can say the Japanese businesses are behind.
• 8:45
  But I can tell you that so many, at least US, North American businesses — I
• 8:50
  mean, AI is exposing a lack of work design — and a lack of disciplined
• 8:55
  workflow inside organizations.
• 8:57
  And I think as we continue to see more complexity — bigger buying groups, longer
• 9:02
  sales cycles, more vendors to choose from — that marketing orchestration discipline
• 9:08
  is gonna become more and more important.
• 9:10
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes, yes.
• 9:10
  Matt Heinz: Can you talk about what that means to you?
• 9:12
  Ichiro Niwayama: Ah, yeah, marketing orchestration is like a miracle.
• 9:17
  Because — 36 years ago, when I founded my company — and my friend
• 9:24
  who lives in the United States, he explained to me that in the future,
• 9:29
  the marketing should be orchestration.
• 9:33
  And, like, as an orchestra — the playing the symphony.
• 9:38
  So, I put on my company name Symphony Marketing.
• 9:41
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 9:41
  Yeah.
• 9:42
  Ichiro Niwayama: 36 years ago.
• 9:43
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 9:44
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, the story.
• 9:45
  But now, everybody says marketing orchestration.
• 9:48
  Matt Heinz: Well, I think people talk about it.
• 9:50
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 9:50
  Matt Heinz: But I don't know that it actually translates
• 9:52
  down to day-to-day value.
• 9:54
  You know?
• 9:54
  I think whether you're talking about actual operational — marketing
• 9:58
  orchestration, sales and marketing alignment — we're really good
• 10:03
  at talking about that at sales kickoffs — and saying we are aligned.
• 10:07
  But then on a Tuesday morning, what happens?
• 10:12
  I mean, even let's just say something simple like someone raises their hand and
• 10:16
  says they wanna learn about your company.
• 10:18
  Where does that go?
• 10:19
  Who follows up?
• 10:20
  How is it tracked?
• 10:21
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 10:21
  Matt Heinz: I mean, how do you do lead to account matching to make sure
• 10:24
  it's in context of the relationship you have with that person, or
• 10:27
  their peers, or that account?
• 10:29
  If you don't map that out — not only are you vastly inefficient in
• 10:34
  how you actually do that, but what about the next lead that comes in?
• 10:36
  Right?
• 10:36
  So I think it is so important moving forward, for marketers, and especially
• 10:42
  marketing leaders, to really think about—
• 10:45
  Ichiro Niwayama: So sometimes I explain to my clients — you don't need the team
• 10:51
  building, the mountain hike — or you don't need barbecue, something like this.
• 10:57
  So
• 11:01
  — important things is data.
• 11:02
  Matt Heinz: Yes.
• 11:03
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes?
• 11:03
  So the same data.
• 11:05
  The product and the sales and the marketing is on the data.
• 11:10
  Matt Heinz: Yep.
• 11:10
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 11:10
  The data is important.
• 11:12
  Matt Heinz: Boy, so many different directions we can go here.
• 11:14
  So, just appreciative to have some time with Ichiro Niwayama.
• 11:18
  He's the president, CEO of Symphony Marketing.
• 11:21
  I would say over 600 clients served across manufacturing, IT, wholesale sectors.
• 11:28
  We — I joke that, like, you sort of stopped me.
• 11:31
  I mean, you're very — you're a very humble man, but you and Symphony
• 11:34
  Marketing are a very big deal
• 11:35
  — Ichiro Niwayama: Thank you very much
• 11:35
  — Matt Heinz: in the Japanese market.
• 11:37
  And, what drove you, probably — was it two years ago — to start IGC
• 11:43
  Harmonics, to start that conference?
• 11:43
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:45
  Because many companies — the structures of building the marketing
• 11:50
  division — and maybe more than 20,000 companies bought marketing
• 11:57
  automation — but only selling the email.
• 11:59
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, yeah,
• 12:00
  Ichiro Niwayama: yeah.
• 12:00
  No scoring.
• 12:00
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 12:01
  Ichiro Niwayama: So, I think that it's a knowledge.
• 12:05
  Important is knowledge.
• 12:07
  So that we start the IGC.
• 12:09
  IGC means Intelligence Globe Growth Club.
• 12:12
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 12:13
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 12:13
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 12:14
  Ichiro Niwayama: And there's — it's the solution for — we provide to our clients.
• 12:19
  And the biggest solution is you and Kerry.
• 12:23
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 12:24
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 12:24
  Matt Heinz: I'm super excited.
• 12:25
  I'm really just thrilled and honored to be coming out this year.
• 12:28
  The way you described it, it's a two-day event, so first day is a lot of sharing
• 12:32
  amongst — you know, amongst companies that are doing this in the market, and
• 12:36
  day two, Kerry Cunningham, who's former Sirius Decisions Forrester analyst here,
• 12:41
  joining for the second time, and I'm excited to join you guys as well, and
• 12:44
  just really appreciate that opportunity.
• 12:47
  Before we wrap up here, I do wanna ask you about your passion around
• 12:52
  environmental conservation and the work you're doing in reforestation.
• 12:57
  This looks like a long-standing personal interest of yours.
• 13:00
  Where did that come from, and why is that so important to you?
• 13:03
  Ichiro Niwayama: I'm B2B marketing lovers.
• 13:05
  But, sometimes I think that I'm like a doctor — because
• 13:10
  many, many companies are sick.
• 13:12
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:13
  Ichiro Niwayama: Heavy sick.
• 13:14
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 13:14
  Ichiro Niwayama: And but I can fix their problem.
• 13:18
  Matt Heinz: Okay.
• 13:18
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah, and after our client becomes healthy — it's
• 13:24
  very comfortable for us.
• 13:26
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 13:26
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yeah.
• 13:27
  Matt Heinz: Yeah.
• 13:27
  I love it.
• 13:28
  All right.
• 13:28
  Ichiro-san, thank you so much for joining us here.
• 13:31
  Ichiro Niwayama: Thank you very much.
• 13:31
  Thank you.
• 13:31
  Matt Heinz: It's been a pleasure.
• 13:33
  I get to see you a couple times a year, usually at conferences like this.
• 13:35
  Ichiro Niwayama: Yes.
• 13:36
  Matt Heinz: And I'm so proud to be able to come out and join
• 13:37
  you guys in Japan this year.
• 13:38
  Ichiro Niwayama: Thank you, and I'll see you very soon.
• 13:40
  Matt Heinz: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:41
  Thank you.
• 13:41
  Thank you so much.
• 13:42
  Ichiro Niwayama: Thank you very much.