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What gay Israelis think about anti-Israel protests · Kvetch & Release

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  Welcome back to AM eight hundred CKLW. I read recently a thought provoking column
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  from a National Post columnist, Adam Zvo that explores the complex intersection of LGBTQ
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  rights and Middle Eastern geopolitics, focusing on the perspectives of four gay Israeli men,
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  and this of course is looking at things in the wake of that tragic
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  October the seventh attack by Hamas. The piece challenges the narratives of Western queer
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  activism as well as shed some light on the realities that are faced by LGBTQ
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  individuals in Israel and the Palestinian territories as well. I am incredibly excited to
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  have joining me right now, Adam Zevo. Adam, great to speak with
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  you again. Thanks for having me back on the show and for spotlighting is
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  very important story. Absolutely, it's you know, it's a very important one.
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  There's so many narratives that are out there right now that I thought that
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  the perspective that you've provided here is a very important one to discuss. So
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  you went to Israel, You've spent time there and you got to speak with
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  some people on the ground. I guess though, before we dive into things
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  we should probably set the stage a little bit about what are the realities like
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  for LGBTQ people in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Well, so, Israel
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  is an oasis of tolerance when it comes to LGBTQ rights in the Middle East.
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  So twenty percent of tele A League self identifies as LGBTQ. You can
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  hold hands on the streets, you can adopt kids, there are large pride
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  parades, queer art is everywhere. The only real deficit of rights is that
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  you cannot get married to your partner in Israel because only religious wedding ceremonies are
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  permitted, or rather religious marriages, and that also blocks inner faith marriages.
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  But that's really easy to bypass because Israel does recognize international civil unions. So
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  what most gay couples do is they either get married abroad or they get married
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  on Zoom using international online marriage services, and at that point they have full
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  equality under the law. The only thing is that Tel Aviv is a bit
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  of a bubble, so tel Aviv is really pro gay. I mean pretty
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  much everyone is gay there. Things are a bit more conservative in Jerusalem and
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  in some smaller towns and villages where you'll have lots of ultra orthodox Jews or
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  very religious Muslim Arabs who can get aggressive if you hold hands on the streets.
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  But that is true for most countries where the cosmic politan centers are very
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  different from the rural areas. Yeah, absolutely so. So that's the state
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  of things on the ground. In Israel, there full right, full acceptance,
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  full rights, other than the fact that you can't get married there,
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  but they do recognize marriage externally within the country. What's the situation like across
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  the border in the Palestinian territories for LGBTQ people, Well, in the Palestinian
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  territories, it is impossible to be public b LGBTQ. And the reason for
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  that is that, I mean, Palestinians are very conservative socially, they're very
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  religious, and they are often organized in larger tribes. So if you have
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  an openly gay family member, that is considered shameful. It dishonors the family.
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  And so gay men gay Palestine men who live in the West Bank or
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  in Gaza are at risk of violence in two separate ways. First of all,
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  they're at risk of state sanctioned violence. They can be imprisoned for being
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  gay. They can be executed, but that's actually relatively minor. The more
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  significant risk is that they are subject to an honor killing from their family and
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  the state just simply looks the other way. There are numerous examples of Palestinians
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  who have had to escape into Israel because they've heard their family members plotting to
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  murder them. One person who had been spoken to by one of my interviewees
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  was a Palestinian whose father tied him up and cut his face, but that
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  Palestinian man managed to escape. So these gay Palestinians escape into Israel where they
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  seek asylum. But until recently, Israel wouldn't grant them full asylum, and
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  they kind of feared that Palestinians would abuse this as a loophole to come to
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  return to Israeli land. And so if you're gay in Palestinian, they're about
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  you were given to temporary permits. There are about ninety men who have these
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  permits, and up until recently, you weren't allowed to work. So these
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  Palestinians were keptain limbo. They often had to work in the underground economy,
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  They had to work in the sex industry, and ultimately many of them would
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  seek asylum in third countries in the West, such as Canada and Sweden,
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  and while they were waiting in Israel, they were still in danger. There's
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  one famous case from a few years ago where a gay man who would escape
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  from the West Bank was tracked by his family, kidnapped back to the West
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  Bank and then be headed there. On top of that, if you are
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  a gay Palestinian, the Israeli intelligence services may actually use that against you and
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  blackmail you into collaboration, which then just increases the amount of violence and suspicion
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  leveled against you by both Palestinian society in general and the Palestinian States. Sounds
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  like, sounds very precarious to have that coming from both sides towards you.
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  So you speak with these four gay Israeli men, getting their perspective as to,
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  of course October the seventh, what it's like for them on the ground
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  in israel I. Wonder what their thoughts are when you know, they set
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  their sites towards university campuses across the Western world and they're seeing, you know,
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  queers for Palestine for example. Well, so just to set the stage
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  here, of the four men that I interviewed, so one was an actor,
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  One was a documentary filmmaker who worked closely with gay Palestinians. That's how
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  I got a lot of information that I just explained right now. One was
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  one of Israel's most namous drag queens, and one was a soldier. And
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  the first three were very empathetic towards the Palestinians. I mean all of them
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  were to a certain extent. They all wanted peace, They all understood the
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  Palestinian need for self determination. They all wanted a two state solution where Palestinians
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  have their full rights. But they thought that that had nothing to do with
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  Hamas, and they saw Hamas rightfully so, as a fundamentalist terrorist organization that
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  was cruel and ruthless and wanted to eradicate all Jews. And they were perplexed
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  by the fact that many queer activists in the West cannot distinguish between the legitimate
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  need of Palestinians have their rights and to have their self determination versus the illegitimate
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  romanticization of Hamas. Given how horrific Humas is, it can certainly appreciate the
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  confusion that some might be experiencing with that. So October the seventh occurs,
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  of course, with the terrible massacre at the Nova Music Music Festival, as
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  well as you know throughout Israel. And how does life begin to change for
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  these men that you spoke with, Well, many of them felt this illusion.
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  For example, nied me some who is the actor that I mentioned.
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  He had always been in progressive circles. He and all of his friends always
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  advocated for Palestinian rights. They marched in the streets, they protest against the
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  nets on Yahoo governments, which they saw as corrupt and overly nationalistic and overly
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  right wing. And then October seventh happened, and Ne've had friends who were
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  murdered, and he was shocked. He said that what happened in October seventh
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  was the worst thing that could possibly happen for everyone, for the Israelis and
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  the Palestinians. And in many ways he lost his faith in a peaceful solution
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  to the conflict. He still wants one, He still wants a to stay
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  solution. But he thought to himself, well, I always believe that the
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  Palestinians wanted peace as well, but now I'm not so sure, given how
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  they applauded the murder of our people. And he still understands that there should
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  be a free Palestine from his perspective, but he feels guilty, too guilty
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  to say that publicly because he thinks, what right does he have to say
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  that when there are still Israeli hostages Kepta in Gaza, there was a soldier.
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  So his name was Michael, and he came from a conservative family.
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  He himself is quite traditional. He wants to raise kids. You know,
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  he can do that because it is real. Accept that because it's so progressive.
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  But he'd always had difficulty where his family didn't understand that, you know,
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  gay men are just regular people. They thought that he was a special
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  gay at first, you know, because he didn't fit the stereotype. Before
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  he came out. They thought they were all dragons and trans Then he came
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  out and they thought, oh, I guess her son is a special gay.
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  And then they realized, oh, actually, you know, there's all
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  sorts of different ways to be gay. You can be flamboyant, you can
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  be more masculine. And because his family didn't realize that at first, it
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  took him a long time to come out. And he was interestingly enough,
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  actually grateful in some ways for the war because he felt that the war helped
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  illustrate so many conservative Israelis that gay men are a part of society, that
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  they should have equal rights because they're equal in death, and that the LGBT
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  community doesn't just party in telll Aviv, they fight for brothers and sisters.
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  And so he thought that seeing soldiers fight and die in the Israeli media would
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  help other conservative families accept their gay sons in the future. He also discusses
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  or you discuss in the piece that he says that he served alongside an Orthodox
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  Jew who told him that being gay was unnatural, but that after time and
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  serving together, he understands that after this war, this time around, when
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  he goes home, that Orthodox Jew won't be so against the gays. He'll
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  think a little bit before he will shout. Is the quote that Tubor said
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  there. That's a really interesting quote. It's about that forced conscription. But
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  how it is able to, I guess, demonstrate the humanity that everybody is
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  because you're serving alongside people. Well, so the thing with Michael is that
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  when he was in Gaza, there were days when everything was insane and he
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  would work for you know, twelve hours, thirteen fourteen hours, not thinking
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  of anything else, full of dregnalone rushing and then he would collapse and his
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  sleeping bag afterwards, and basically figuratively. And there were also days when things
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  were very quiet and him and his fellow soldiers had nothing to do for hours
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  on end, and during those lulls, they would talk with each other.
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  Because they're part of the same units, they sit together and they would learn
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  about each other's lives. And because conscription brings together every segment of Israeli society,
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  you had highly conservative Israelis with highly progressive Israelis. You had Orthodox Jews
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  sitting with you know, gay Jews from Tel Aviv, and through talking with
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  one another, they were able to understand each other better. Did they always
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  walk away agreeing with each other's values or fully understanding each other, No,
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  but they were able to build some kind of bridge. And the idea for
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  Michael is that after the war, you know, these Orthodox Jews may not
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  necessarily agree with LGBTQ rights, may still oppose it, but maybe less aggressive
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  towards it, or may eventually be on the path towards understanding right because incremental
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  improvements is better than no improvement at all. And that was something that really
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  resonated with him. And that he really valued from his war experience. So
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  where do these four men go following the war? How has things changed for
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  them? Have things changed for them? Well, there's year of Mozart,
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  who is a famous documentary filmmaker, and he is currently working on a documentary
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  film about the Nova massacre. So he's following fifteen survivors, one of whom
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  is gay, but it's not a gay film. That's just an incidental part
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  of it. And he has to watch unspeakable footage again and again and again
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  as part of that project. He had always been an advocate for Palestinian self
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  determination. Now his faith is a little bit shaped, but he still intends
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  to advocate for that, and to advocate for a change in government and to
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  advocate for a ceasefire. Some of the hostages can come home. My last
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  interviewee the Drag Queen tw So he helped popularize drag culture across all of Israel
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  and in Jerusalem from the two thousands. And he was shocked by October seventh
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  because he knew that being anti anti Israeli is very trendy in the queer community,
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  but he didn't read. He was shocked to see people glorify the murder
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  of Israeli civilians, and he made several viral videos deconstructing the whole Queers for
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  Palestine thing and got really pulled apart for it online on Instagram by some of
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  these queer radicals. And so at this point, even though he's performed all
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  across the world in Berlin Pride and London Pride, he no longer feels safe
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  performing as a drag queen at queer events in the West because he fears but
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  what pro Palestinian activist might do. And he's given up trying to convince the
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  international drag community of the validity of Israeli rights and the validity of Israeli lives
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  because they just don't seem to listen. He said, it's like talking to
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  deaf people. And so he's just focused on performing domestically and using his craft
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  to cheer up Israelis who need a distraction from this war, you know,
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  like every community. Of course, the queer community globally is not a monolith
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  by any means. But it does sound a little bit demoralizing what that last
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  man you were speaking with went through there, But focusing on what can make
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  people entertained and happy is a great use of talents, Adam. Your piece
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  is incredibly thought provoking what gay Israelis think about anti Israel protests. It is
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  available in the National Post and at the Nationalpost dot com. I want to
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  thank you so much for your time today. I want to thank you for
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  letting me talk about this research. Thank you so much. Adams Evo is
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  a columnist with The National Host. We're going to take a quick break.
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  We'll be back right after this