Latest / Voddie Baucham Sermons / Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Voddie Baucham Sexual Abuse in the Church and Jurisdictional Authority #ChangeTheDirection

Transcript

Voddie Baucham - TS&TT Voddie Baucham Sexual Abuse in the Church and Jurisdictional Authority #ChangeTheDirection · Voddie Baucham Sermons

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sword and Trowel podcast. Sword and Trowel
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: is a ministry of Founders Ministries, and Founders exists for
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: the recovery of the gospel and the reformation of local churches.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: I'm Tom Askell.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: And I'm Graham Gundin.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: We're delighted to come to you today and to welcome
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: into our studio again, all the way from Lusaka, Africa, Zambia,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: in Africa, Dr. Vody Baucom. Vody, welcome to the Sword
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: and the Trowel, man. It's good to have you back.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Thank you. It's good to be back, man.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: So how is life going for you there in Lusaka?
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: It's going, you know. Some days we're the windshield and
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: some days we're the bug, but it's going, you know. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we're grateful for what you're doing over there, heading
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: up the African Christian University and getting things in place.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I know you've got personnel, some challenges. It seems like
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: God's helping you with that moving forward, and we're excited.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Just looking forward to hearing more good reports coming out
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: of Lusaka. The last time you were here, we talked
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: a little bit about some of the things going on
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: in the SBC. Of course, you will be nominated to
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: be the president of the SBC Pastors Conference in Anaheim
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: coming up in just a few days. I'll be nominated
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: for the presidency of the SBC at that same gathering.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: And those are events that will happen on the 12th
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  Speaker 1: and 13th of June out in Anaheim, California. So any
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  Speaker 1: Southern Baptists or if you know Southern Baptists, I encourage
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  Speaker 1: you to go out there and vote, and let's try
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to do what we can to make the convention healthier.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: But in the midst of that conversation, we talked about
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  Speaker 1: some of the things that are going on with the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Sex Abuse Task Force report. I think Guidepost maybe had
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: just dropped the report the last time we talked, so
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  Speaker 1: neither one of us had had time. to read over it.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I've since had time to read it. And Graham, I
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: don't know if you've read all the way through it yet. Yeah,
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: little bits of it. And Bo, you probably haven't even
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: seen it yet. So, you know, it's still a lot
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: to digest, especially the appendices, which have proposals or recommendations.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: And my understanding is that guidepost was an outside entity.
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: And so they were.
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  Speaker 1: Contracted by the task force. The task force is comprised
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: of Southern Baptists that were appointed by the SBC president,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Ed Litton. And that task force, my understanding, is going
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: to come out with their own proposals sometime soon. I'm
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: sure by the time this gets out, that will have
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: already happened. And I don't know what is going to
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: be in there, obviously. I haven't seen that. But before
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: we even look at suggestions or proposals, there's a lot
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  Speaker 1: of biblical foundational things that we ought to talk about. Brody,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: you and I have talked through this, and you've written
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: about this, I've written about this, and over many years
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: we've had good conversations about it and tried to promote
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: these ideas of jurisdictional authority or spheres of authority. Graham,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: we've hit that before in talking through this podcast, especially
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: back during the year of COVID, or was it a
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: year or decades ago?
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: I can't recall how long it's been.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: It's an era.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: Era of COVID. That's right. B.C.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Before COVID and whatever. I don't know what it'll be afterwards.
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  Speaker 1: But all that came to the fore. And you saw
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  Speaker 1: how poorly evangelicals were thinking or maybe had never thought
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  Speaker 1: about these things. So, man, lay into that. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: just help us to think about all of these different
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  Speaker 1: jurisdictional authorities.
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah, and I think this is another side of
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  Speaker 3: the coin in terms of the COVID issue. You know,
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  Speaker 3: God gave us three distinct spheres of jurisdictional authority, the
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  Speaker 3: family and the church and the state. And, you know,
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  Speaker 3: the state wields the sword and the family bears the rod.
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  Speaker 3: And the church holds the keys, right? All of these
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  Speaker 3: different symbols of authority in these different jurisdictions. And with COVID,
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  Speaker 3: what we were looking at, what we were seeing is
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  Speaker 3: the state usurping the church's jurisdiction, telling the church when
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  Speaker 3: and if it could meet, right? That was a usurpation
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  Speaker 3: by the state. And I think one of the things
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  Speaker 3: that we've been dealing with here in terms of these
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  Speaker 3: issues of abuse, one of the problems that we've seen
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  Speaker 3: is that the church has been, in many instances, usurping
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  Speaker 3: the state's jurisdiction. And what I mean by that is,
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  Speaker 3: in this report, you see that a lot of churches
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  Speaker 3: had crimes reported to them. And the crimes are also sins,
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  Speaker 3: but they treated the crimes as sins and did not
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  Speaker 3: go to the proper jurisdictional authority. The proper jurisdictional authority
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  Speaker 3: for crime is the magistrate Right. As pastors, as elders,
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  Speaker 3: we do not wield the authority of the state. And
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  Speaker 3: so when somebody comes to us with something that is
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  Speaker 3: a crime, we go to the proper jurisdiction for that
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  Speaker 3: to be dealt with. Now, in many instances, there'll be both. Right.
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  Speaker 3: In many instances, it's a crime and a sin. Not
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  Speaker 3: all crimes are sins. Not all sins are crimes. But
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  Speaker 3: in the things we're talking about in this report, we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about sins that are also crimes. So on the
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  Speaker 3: one hand, the church has that duty and responsibility, the
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  Speaker 3: disciplinary responsibility, and that has to be upheld. But on
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  Speaker 3: the other hand, the church has to submit to the
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: proper jurisdictional authority of the state and report crimes as crimes.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think you're exactly right there. I think
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  Speaker 1: what sometimes may happen and probably did happen based on
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  Speaker 1: the anecdotes that are embedded in the report, other things
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  Speaker 1: that have been made public over the last few years,
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  Speaker 1: is that some leaders, let me just kind of draw
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: up a generic scenario. I think this probably typifies what
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  Speaker 1: happens in some cases, is somebody comes to a church
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  Speaker 1: leader or a Christian leader in some organization or institution
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  Speaker 1: and says, I was sexually assaulted. and that Christian leader
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  Speaker 1: with compassion wanting to help, so tell me about this,
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  Speaker 1: let's get this straight. And looking to the Scripture, thinking
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: how do we deal with this biblically, and believing that
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  Speaker 1: the Bible is sufficient, the Bible is inerrant, doesn't think
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  Speaker 1: clearly enough about what you just said about jurisdictional authority
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  Speaker 1: and begins to try to sort out, okay, how can
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  Speaker 1: we handle this?
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  Speaker 4: We need to get these people together.
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  Speaker 1: We need to sort it out without immediately thinking, wait
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  Speaker 1: a minute, We're not talking about just a sin here.
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  Speaker 4: We're talking about a crime here.
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  Speaker 1: And I wonder if maybe our commitment, some people's commitment
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  Speaker 1: to the inerrancy and sufficiency of Scripture didn't maybe bleed
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  Speaker 1: over into their thinking about the inerrancy of themselves or
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  Speaker 1: their interpreter to be able to handle all of this.
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  Speaker 1: We don't need any outside counsel or help. And just
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  Speaker 1: wait a minute. No, this is not our lane. We
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  Speaker 1: have a lane, but it's not that. Does that make sense?
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  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it really does sometimes. That's the same thing.
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  Speaker 3: It's the same thing when your child comes to church,
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  Speaker 3: you know, and gets out of hand. Jurisdictionally, I need
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  Speaker 3: to come to you, right? Right. Because you're the jurisdictional
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  Speaker 3: authority there. I don't just take your kid into my
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  Speaker 3: office and spank him. You know, people have gotten in.
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  Speaker 3: People have gotten into trouble with that. In jail. Oh, man.
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  Speaker 3: And we're in jail for things like that, right? That
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  Speaker 3: is another issue of jurisdictional authority, right? So I don't
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  Speaker 3: bear the rod at church, right? So when your kid
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  Speaker 3: needs the rod, I'll take your kid to you, right?
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  Speaker 3: And that's another instance as well. And so I think
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  Speaker 3: what happens is, you know, some people do overestimate their...
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  Speaker 3: jurisdictional authority and end up usurping both in terms of
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  Speaker 3: the family and in terms of the state. But it
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  Speaker 3: all comes back to having a robust theological understanding of
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  Speaker 3: jurisdictional authority. And by the way, let me say this also,
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  Speaker 3: because a lot of people don't realize this, right? When
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  Speaker 3: it relates to issues like this, number one, before I
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  Speaker 3: went into the ministry, all I ever wanted to be
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: was a lawyer. So as an undergraduate, my major was
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  Speaker 3: pre-law and international business, and I just wanted to practice law.
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  Speaker 3: But then in terms of my work before I went
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  Speaker 3: into ministry, I worked in social work. I had a
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  Speaker 3: number of jobs. working in the social work field, you know,
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  Speaker 3: working with, you know, kids who were in various institutions,
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: group homes and things like that, right? The other thing
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  Speaker 3: is my mother retired a few years ago. She was
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  Speaker 3: a victim's advocate in the Bexar County court system in
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  Speaker 3: the San Antonio area. And so my mother worked basically
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  Speaker 3: shepherding children specifically through the court system with issues of
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  Speaker 3: abuse and things like this. And then lastly, you know,
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  Speaker 3: a number of children that we have, you know, came
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  Speaker 3: to our family through adoption. One of them was a
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  Speaker 3: product of a rape and the other, we found out
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  Speaker 3: was a product of incest. And we found out because
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  Speaker 3: we got a call from the adoption agency that said, hey,
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: you know, the police are going to need you to
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  Speaker 3: come in so that they can do a DNA swab.
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  Speaker 3: And anyway, long story short, we ended up smack dab
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  Speaker 3: in the middle of that whole legal situation because of
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  Speaker 3: what had happened to our child's birth mother. And then,
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  Speaker 3: of course, I've had situations where I've been part of
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  Speaker 3: church leadership that has had to deal with things like
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  Speaker 3: this either directly or indirectly. So when I talk about this,
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  Speaker 3: I'm not just talking theoretically.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And again, if you don't understand authority, if you don't
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  Speaker 1: at least have a biblical baseline that authority, all authority
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  Speaker 1: belongs to Jesus Christ.
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  Speaker 4: He said that in the Great Commission.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And so every other authority is delegated from Christ. You're
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  Speaker 1: going to get this completely wrong. Graham, I know, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we've had to deal with these kind of cases in
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  Speaker 1: our church and just walk through before, what do you
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  Speaker 1: want to follow up to about specifics, but walk through
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  Speaker 1: I mean, what would you do? What would the leadership
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  Speaker 1: of our church do, the pastors here, if somebody called,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: somebody came in and said, hey, you know, I have
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  Speaker 1: been abused. I've been sexually abused by this church member
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  Speaker 1: or this family member. What would kick into motion?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, first off, there's the whole consideration.
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  Speaker 2: Is this accusation a credible accusation? But before we even
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  Speaker 2: get into determining whether that's the case or not, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: if there's a, if there's a case of abuse, the
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  Speaker 2: authorities do have to be notified. They have to be called.
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  Speaker 2: And if there's any chance that a person is in
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  Speaker 2: a context in which abuse can continue, they need to
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  Speaker 2: be removed from that context. And we then allow the
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  Speaker 2: authorities to do their job and investigate the matter. But
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  Speaker 2: then there's also some investigation that we have to do
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  Speaker 2: as well as authorities within the church.
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  Speaker 4: Because it's a sin as well as a crime.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. And so It depends on, you know, is
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  Speaker 2: the person coming to us, are they a member of
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: our church? Is the person that is accused of abuse,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: are they a member of the church? And there has
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  Speaker 2: to really be due diligence on both sides to ensure,
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  Speaker 2: is this accusation credible? Is this true? Because, you know,
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  Speaker 2: there can be dangers for both people.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even saying that, though, a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: get upset about that today because we were told a
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: few years ago, if you really are going to care
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  Speaker 1: well for sex abuse victims, you must believe all women.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that was a mantra that was given to
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  Speaker 1: us And what you're doing, you're not helping women. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it's virtue.
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  Speaker 3: Believe all women unless they're accusing Biden.
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You guys that don't live here, you see those things
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  Speaker 1: so much clearer than we do because it's just part
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  Speaker 1: of the culture that we breathe these days.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Well, it is true, though, that we have had even
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: a case in our church in which there was another
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  Speaker 2: member accused of abuse and it wasn't true. It wasn't true.
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  Speaker 2: And so we had to protect the one who was
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  Speaker 2: being accused.
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  Speaker 4: That's right. And so here's the deal.
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  Speaker 1: Anytime an accusation like that comes, you've got to make
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  Speaker 1: it a safe context for that person to speak freely
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  Speaker 1: and openly.
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  Speaker 4: So you don't just say, oh, well, you've got to
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  Speaker 4: prove it. Come back when you have proof. You don't
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  Speaker 4: do that.
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  Speaker 1: You very humbly, warmly try to make sure, is there
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  Speaker 1: danger here? If there's any hint of danger, remove the
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: vulnerable person from the danger area.
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  Speaker 4: Which, again, we've done.
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  Speaker 1: We've put them in other members' homes and things like that.
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  Speaker 1: But you know when that kind of serious accusation is made,
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  Speaker 1: you know you have a victim. There is a victim
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  Speaker 1: involved in this scenario now. It's either the one who's
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  Speaker 1: been accused or it's the one doing the accusing. Or
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  Speaker 1: there could be other elements involved. You just don't know.
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  Speaker 1: But he who answers a matter before he hears it
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  Speaker 1: fully is a fool, Proverbs 18 says.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And the one who comes forth first and presents his
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  Speaker 1: case seems right until another comes and questions him. So
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  Speaker 1: if we're going to be biblical, we've got to care
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  Speaker 1: for the person coming, you know, with maybe traumatized and
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  Speaker 1: all kind of things going on. Give every benefit of
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: the doubt. Do what you can. Make sure they're safe.
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  Speaker 1: And then if it's a crime being reported, call the police.
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  Speaker 1: That's who God's ordained to begin the process of wielding
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  Speaker 1: the sword that he's put in their hands. And you
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  Speaker 1: deal with the possible victims. sin or the sin that
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: will be manifested in some place, some capacity in the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: context of the church.
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  Speaker 2: And there is a difference, and we need to continue
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: to keep this in mind. There is a difference between
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  Speaker 2: someone who's been credibly accused and someone who's been convicted.
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  Speaker 4: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: Because if you've been credibly accused, that means that there's
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  Speaker 2: some plausibility to the story that you are an abuser,
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  Speaker 2: but it's not been proven beyond any reasonable doubt.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I don't like that language, incredibly accused. That's part
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: of the language that we see floating around now. And
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: it's almost like somebody has come up with a standard
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: that says, if you don't have any ability to deny
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: beyond a shadow of a doubt, or if this is
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: something that's not falsifiable, then you're, boom, you're guilty until
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: proven innocent. Well, that's contrary to the Word of God.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: But one of the things that alarms me, too, is
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I think there's a utopian spirit. that is motivating some
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: people who really do want to care well for sex
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  Speaker 1: abuse victims. And, you know, we ought to give them
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  Speaker 1: that because, granted, there's so many stories where, especially women
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  Speaker 1: and children, just have not been shepherded well, cared well,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: protected well.
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: And even when it's.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Evident what's happened, they just haven't been loved and cared
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: for the way the Bible says. But I think that
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: spirit causes some to say, well, if the Bible was enough...
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: If the church was enough, these things would not happen.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: How many cases is too many? You know, all of that.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: There's no avoiding sin in the world, sin in the.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: Church, right?
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: No. No, there's not.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: You know, you've lived through that. I mean, you know,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: you've seen that. And the question isn't whether sin is
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: going to happen in the church. The question is, what
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: do we do about it? Tell us about something that
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: you've lived through with that.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's a couple of things. One, most recently,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: you know, our sending church recently went through a very
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: high profile incident. It was an incident that didn't happen
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: at the church. It happened in a family. It happened
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: in a family of one of the leaders in the church,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: one of the elders in the church. And it was
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: a devastating situation. And I remember getting that call from
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: the elders of the church when they were on their
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: way back from, I think, the sheriff's office. They got
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: the information and immediately went and reported. And let me
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: just say at the outset, these guys, this whole thing
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: was handled in just a stellar fashion. And one of
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: the things that I hope we do in the SBC
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: as we highlight this issue is I hope we highlight
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: places where it's been done well. And this was one
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: of those instances. And so there was an immediate report
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: that was made, an immediate removal of the person from
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: the home, you know, immediate mover, in this case, the offender,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: you know, immediately, you know, removed from the home before
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: the police, you know, even got involved to do anything
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: like that. You know, the discipline process was started as well.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: The caring process, the caring process for the person was
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: also started as well. And the other thing that a
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: lot of people don't know is that the church in
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: so many ways went to bat for and shepherded the
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: family and the victim. For example, the news came out
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: and the news reported, number one, they reported the matter inaccurately.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: They reported the matter as though the church wasn't the
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: one to file the report, but somebody had to force that.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: But secondly, they did it in such a way that
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: they all but named the victims. And so the elders
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: are on the horn immediately rebuking the reporter for the
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: way that they reported in all of this. You know,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: by the time the police got involved, you know, they
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: talked about, you know, how exemplary the response had already been.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: And then in this instance, the church, you know, supported
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: not only emotionally and spiritually, but also financially. you know,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: this family, because, you know, they ended up losing their breadwinner.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: And then beyond that, you know, in Houston, there's, you know,
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: one of these liberal, you know, George Soros-backed DAs, and
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: this thing almost got swept under the rug. And it
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: was the church who actually held the DA's feet to
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: the fire and so that true justice was carried out
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: on behalf of the victim. And again, you don't hear
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: all of that. And I have not highlighted this for
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: a number of reasons. It's interesting, some people even came
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: after me for not coming out and making statements and
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: highlighting this or whatever. But number one, my first priority is,
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: was protecting the victim and this family that had been victimized.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: And me highlighting this, number one, would not have helped them,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: would have harmed them. Number two, it could have been
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: problematic for the legal side of things. And number three,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: it would have just been virtue signaling on my part.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: So I'm far less concerned about whether people think I've
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: responded enough than I am about, you know, this victim,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: this family being cared for properly and the church responding
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: in inappropriate ways, which is... in this instance, it absolutely did. Yeah.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I remember getting a call, too, from those two elders. And,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: you know, they were heartbroken. They were determined to do
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: what was right, thinking with them, praying with them and
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: just listening to them, trying to be a sounding board
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: for them. And it's a model. It's a model. If
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: we want to care well for these horrific types of situations,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: then we ought to go to school on that church
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: and what they did. And the firestorm that was created
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: on social media when it became public, I mean, we
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: had Southern Baptists. We had a professor at one of
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: our seminaries that just, she acted like, oh, look at this.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: This is what happens when you're this kind of church.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was horrific. It was horrific.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was,
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: and it happened away from the church. I mean, um,
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: you know, it's, it's still, it's horrific. You know, these,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: these were members of the church, but like you said,
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: seeing people victimized again, um, in, in settings like that, um, it,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: it was, it was infuriating.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: You know, it was, it was infuriating. It really was.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: One of the things I'm concerned about is in, uh,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: A lot of what's going on today in this report
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: and things have been uncovered and things have been public
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: for a while as attention's being focused upon the horrific
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: reality of this type of sin and crime in the church,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: in Christian circles, and then the cover-up or not dealing
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: properly with it is that we're listening to the wrong people,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: that we're following the counsel of the wrong people. And
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: let me just give you an example of, here's a
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: statement from a Christian leader in which he was trying
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to make a case of, hey, we've got to do something,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: we've got to do something. He writes this. I'm trying
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: to say this as clearly as I can to you,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: brothers and sisters. There are tactics that have been used
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: to create a culture where countless children have been torn
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: to shreds, where women have been raped and then broken down. Now,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: if you're that Christian leader and you really believe this,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: what should you do? What would you do if you
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: truly see this happening?
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: You ring the bells. You reveal what you're seeing, what's
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: going on.
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: You call the police.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: You don't talk about it anonymously.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Children being ripped to shreds, torn to shreds, women being raped.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: This is Russell Moore when he was head of the
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Ethics and Religious Liberty Council, wrote this letter to his
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: chairman of the Board of Trustees, David Prince, and said,
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: They didn't do anything with it for 18 months until
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: right before the Southern Baptist Convention last year when Mike
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Stone was running. It was released and somehow twisted and
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: distorted into suggesting, well, Mike Stone's the problem. He's the
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: one at fault here. And I think Tennessee is a
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: mandatory report state. I'm thinking if somebody knows of women
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: being raped and children being torn to shreds, that person needs.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: To report it.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: And if they didn't report it, why has nobody questioned him?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: On the 18 months? Why listen to a guy like that?
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: There's something wrong there.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: And like you said, in many states, that's a crime.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: If you know about things like that that have happened
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: and you didn't report them, that's a crime. So, yeah,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: I hear you. And that one continues to baffle me.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what it does for me, Vody, is
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: it makes me wonder– What is really going on here?
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Are we genuinely, is everybody genuinely concerned to care well
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: for those who have been sexually abused? I think most are.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: But I have to wonder, this is a pretty simple
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: cut and dried situation. Why isn't a question asked of
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Russ Moore? I don't think he showed up in the
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: guidepost investigation.
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: Maybe he did and I just missed it.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: But this is a question Southern Baptists ought to want
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: to have answered. Why was the head of our Ethics
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and Religious Liberty Commission privy to information where a culture
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: is created where women are being raped and children are
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: being torn to shreds and he does nothing about it.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, that says something about our culture right there.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, either he's a coward and he didn't say anything
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: about it or it's just a lie.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some kind of virtue signaling or something. I don't
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: know what it is, but I don't think we can
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: let this stand if we're going to be people of
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: truth and people who genuinely want to show the love
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: and mercy of Jesus Christ to those who have been
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: horrifically treated. So it comes back to the word of God.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, all of this comes back to how do
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: we know there are these spheres of authority? How do
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: we know we have different jurisdictions? Because this is God's world.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: God created the world and he created families. He created churches.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: He created the state. And he gives to each one
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: authority that is to be carried out, exercised under God.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: his provisions and authority and dictates.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Part of the, one of the problems I see brewing
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: is that when you start talking principally like this, about
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: what the principles of the scriptures give us to deal
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: with these issues, it's almost as if, well, you're letting
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: your principles get in the way of caring well for victims,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: because really the Bible's not quite enough. You need to
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: set up all these other different parameters and all these
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: different fences and and care for victims in the way
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: in which the experts have determined they need to be
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: cared for or the professionals have determined. And there's not
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: much credence given to, okay, what does the Bible say
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: about how to care for the oppressed?
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: And I don't think it's necessarily an either or. And
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: I don't think any of us would say that you don't,
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: you know, educate yourself or you don't surround yourself with
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: people who who know about these kinds of situations. I
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: think when we talk about the principles here, what we're
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: doing is we're saying that it has to happen within
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: a framework and there has to be guiding principles. And
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: the guiding principles cannot just be pragmatic, utilitarian, emotional, knee-jerk reactions, right?
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: we've got to think through these things. Otherwise, we end
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: up creating more problems in our efforts to solve these problems.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: And the other reason that we have to think through
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: this in this principled sort of way is because, again,
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: I think in the not-too-distant future, there's going to be
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: another issue as it relates to crimes versus sins. Because
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: In the not too distant future, you know, this whole
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: issue of minor attracted persons, what happens when the age
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: of consent is lowered significantly? What happens then, you know,
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: when you've got the, you know, radical LGBTQIA2S plus movement,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: you know, who usually lead the way, right? The gender
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Marxists usually lead the way in trying to lower the
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: age of consent. And so now you've got the 50-year-old
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: man and the 14-year-old boy, but the law has said
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: that that's okay, right? And if you think that that's
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: a bridge too far, all I'll say is 50 years ago,
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: people would have said the same thing about same-sex marriage, right? Yep.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: And so we also need to think about this in
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: those terms as well, right? What are we going to
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: do when that jurisdiction starts to say that, you know,
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: things that are now crimes are no longer crimes? And unfortunately,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: I think what we've done far too often in the
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: church is, you know, we've sat on our hands and
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: not thought through these things and just assumed that they
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: wouldn't get that bad when at the end of the
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: day they have. So again, that's a whole other ball
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: of wax right there. But these are the types of
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: things that we need to be thinking through biblically and theologically.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: And these are the kinds of things that we need
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: to be preparing ourselves for. So on the one hand,
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: we need to look at what has happened be honest
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: about what has happened. And there needs to be accountability, right?
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: On the other hand, we need to make sure that
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: whatever responses come next, that they come out of a
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: theological framework and not just a knee-jerk reaction. And then thirdly,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: we need to also be looking ahead at things that
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: will be coming our way, in the not too distant
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: future and deciding how it is that we're going to respond.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's well put. And what it does is it
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: casts us right back onto first principles. What does the
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: Bible say? And I think what I've begun to recognize is, okay,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: you've got people who believe the Bible and they've miserably failed.
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: In dealing with this issue of sex abuse.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: They just haven't done well in many cases, not all,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: because you'll never convince me. that most pastors, most churches
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: in the SBC are safe havens for sex abusers. There's
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: no evidence of that, and yet that's kind of the
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: narrative that's being spun out of this. But on the
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: one hand, you've got these conservative Bible-believing folks who've not
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: done well.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Well, because they hadn't been thinking jurisdictionally. They haven't been
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: thinking in these spheres of authority we just outlined And
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: they've tried to usurp authority from the state that belongs
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: only to the state. And they've made a disaster. They've
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: made a mess of things. But now you've got people
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: over here and they're looking at that saying, this is horrible.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: What you've done is horrible. And you're an inerrantist. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: you're appealing to the Bible. You're saying you're using the Bible.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: What we need is we have the Bible and we're
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: going to care well for people. And what we need
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: is our own kind of bureaucracy that tells us that
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: we can handle this disregarding jurisdictional authority in the exact
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: same way that the other side is doing as well.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: And my response, I was talking to a guy yesterday
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: about this. My response is it's not that the Bible's
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: been tried and followed and then demonstrated to be unreliable.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: The Bible hasn't really been followed by inerrantists who say
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: we believe it. And what we've got to do is
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: admit it. We've got to humble ourselves and repent and say, Lord,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: we made a mess of this. Your word's true.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Everything in the word's true.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: It's sufficient. We have just blown it. And God have
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: mercy on us and help us to think better, to
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: learn better, to be more humble. and seeing what the
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Scripture teaches about how we deal with sins in the church,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: crimes in the state. And if we could get that straight,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: our churches would do what God's intended the church to do,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: and our magistrates would do what God intends the magistrates
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: to do. And those who have been victimized by this
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: horrible sin and crime of sex abuse would be cared
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: well for better, far better than what we've seen thus far.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: Amen.
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: Very good.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Well, brother, thank you so much for joining us today,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: talking about this. This isn't pleasant to talk about. And
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: it's like walking through a minefield. You know, you could
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: misspeak in one little way, and that word can be
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: used against you to hang you as proposing something that's
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: never in your mind. Or you can avoid saying things
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: that may be in a different context. Of course you
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: would elaborate on it. They say, well, you didn't say this.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: And because you didn't, you don't really love or care
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: about people. And that's not true. As Christians, we've got
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: to do better than that. The world has its agenda.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: The world wants to drive the church. The world wants
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: to infiltrate the church. But we have a savior. The
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Lord Jesus is the head of his church. He's given
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: us his word. And in that word, we have everything
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: we need to show us how to live, not in
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: isolation from the world, but in the world with all
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the good gifts he's given us in the world, including
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: civil magistrates.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: Well, and I will say this as well, that the way...
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: our sending church handled this was not just a testimony
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: that we need to be thinking about in terms of
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: following what they've done, but it was also a testimony
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: within the broader community. For example, within the legal community,
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: it was a testimony because of the way that, you know,
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: things were responded to and because of the way that
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: this victim and this family were cared for and because
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: of the way that they were advocated for. I mean,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: it was a testimony in the broader community as well. So,
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: you know, God took what was a very, very ugly,
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: very difficult, very painful situation. and turned it into something
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: that demonstrated how the body of Christ, uh, can respond
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: and how the gospel, uh, can bring healing in the
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: midst of devastating circumstances.
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Amen.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: And that provides a platform for the gospel going out,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: demonstrating its power and its truth. Well, Vody, thank you
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: for joining us today, brother. I look forward to seeing
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: you a few days out in California and, uh, That'll
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: be right around the corner.
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: I know, man. I know.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to see what God does. But grateful
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: for you and your work, your ministry over there at
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: ACU in Zambia. And we'll put links up with the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: notes of this program so people that want to get
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: in contact with you and find out more about that
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: ministry and work can do so. Well, thank you for
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: joining us on The Sword and the Trial today. We
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: look forward to having another conversation in the near future.