Latest / Goodlife Church Formation Podcast / Competing Kingdoms - Progressive Christianity + Post-modernism

Transcript

Competing Kingdoms - Progressive Christianity + Post-modernism · Goodlife Church Formation Podcast

• Jack O'Brien: Well, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. this is this is being syndicated across two different platforms. So hello and welcome if you are listening from the Good Life Formation podcast. Good to have you here. And if you're on the Good Men podcast, we have Pastor Rebecca joining us today, which I'm super excited about. I actually think, Bex, this is a little bit off scripts, but I think there's a a huge place for women to to find gold in this podcast and to share it with the blokes in their life. I know that I love listening to one of your Podcasts. the the something Yeah, the Lancaster Girl projects. Bex: Lancaster Project. Lancaster Lancaster Podcast, sorry. DC: Lancaster is amazing. Jack O'Brien: Love it. Yep, I listen to every episode. DC: The bonus pod came this week with Bex talking with Carolina and Lola. my Jack O'Brien: Yep. Huge fan. So so there you go. There's there's a plug for the Lancaster Project Podcast. But yes, we are on the good men podcast and the good life formation pod today. I'll I'll get to you in a sec, Bex. Dave, where in the world are you? DC: I'm in my office, Jack. I've just Jack O'Brien: Okay, good. DC: I'm just actually just got back from a run. I'm I'm it's I don't know if you've you know you've got some physiotherapy in your background, Jack, but it's come back from an old man knee injury and I was out towards knobies and then had to get back in a certain amount of time. And let's just say I I slightly blew the schedule by Jack O'Brien: Okay. DC: my pace on the return. Jack O'Brien: There you go. Hey, Dave, before you get into it, got some got some listener submitted questions here for you. So actually it ties in really nicely to the run. DC: by formation or is it good men? 'Cause we're doing both of these. Jack O'Brien: Or I'm not sure anonymously, but but we'll just go for it. so if you were athletic, what sport would you be good at? DC: Snowboarding. Jack O'Brien: Okay. Not the one I'd choose, but sure. if you were into fashion, what brands would you wear? DC: Gucci. Jack O'Brien: Interesting. Okay. if you were the if you were the primary chef or cook at home, what would be your go to meals? DC: a awesome steak and veggies. Jack O'Brien: Okay, we'll stay that's the final question. if you were Bex: Sorry, who sorry, who would cook that? Yeah. DC: If it says if I was the chef at home. And regularly I am Rebecca. Jack O'Brien: Okay. DC: Rebecca does rate herself as quite the the state chef. She she's she's the she's got a couple of things that she's really good at and she focuses Jack O'Brien: Mm-hmm. DC: on. I'm I'm more of a I'm more of a generalist, she's more of a specialist. Jack O'Brien: Okay, sure. Well, on the steak, if if you were any good at cooking steak, how would you cook it? DC: Right. Jack O'Brien: Okay. Good answers. Well, th they're very interesting. DC: What does this say about me? Is this some kind of random internet survey? Jack O'Brien: Well, yeah, I mean you you handled it relatively well. But it Bex: You did. Jack O'Brien: was just like you know, if if you were athletic and if you were into fashion and and if you're a good cook. It's just curious how how it would play out if if those things were true. DC: If those things were true. Jack O'Brien: Mm. DC: Yeah. Well maybe some of them are, some of them aren't. I wasn't asked to speak on that. It was just a hypothetical in the current situation. Me, those I am, I'm quite the athlete, Jack. I don't know if you've seen me snowboarding. Actually you don't see me snowboarding if Jack O'Brien: I just heard you complain about running. DC: you can't keep up, so there's that. Jack O'Brien: Yeah, I'm busy taking out people on the way. That's that's how I do it. DC: You are axing as long as you're not axing Ash Gillot, like a good friend of L. Jack O'Brien: No, that's that's for a future guest to to cover. Okay, well, nevertheless, we're gonna unpack this week's this week's instalment of competing kingdoms. Bex, you are going to town on a bunch of different ideologies and we're we're halfway through. So maybe give us the give us the cliff notes of what was covered this Sunday just gone at Good Life Church. Bex: Yeah, the Sunday just gone. We covered postmodernism into critical theory and then we covered progressive Christianity. and you might be wondering why would you cover Christianity as part of this? And I'm sure we'll get to that. But yeah, those are the postmodernism slash critical theory and progressive Christianity. Jack O'Brien: Okay. Dave, we've been on a bit of a a a trend or a theme here of scoring becs. So what would you or would you score the sermon on Sunday? DC: I especially because of the remarkable AI generated images which are killing the oceans, but I'm I'm say twelve out of nine. Jack O'Brien: I don't know. Just it quickly explain for those who are generationally challenged, what does killing the oceans mean? DC: Look, there's a Bex: Doesn't know. DC: there's Jack O'Brien: No, that's why I'm asking. DC: all sorts of theories about this, but AI uses a whole lot of water, allegedly, and so yeah, Bex: Cool things down, apparently. DC: to cool things down. And so there's discussions in regards to what are the environmental impacts of this. and depending what corners of the internet you range, you are either very much believing that this is a bad thing, or you're wondering if it's a problem at all. Bex: I just to say this. For my entire genera my entire lifetime, we've been worried about rising sea levels. If this is drying up the sea levels, then it's just gonna cancel each other out. AI is fixing climate change. Jack O'Brien: Okay. That's that's a good one. Bex: I'm just doing my bit, Jack. Jack O'Brien: good good DC: Hey, Jack Jack O'Brien: on you. DC: Jack, Jack Bex is a scientist, so this is probably very well founded research behind this. Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: Right. Okay. speaking of AI, did you say Groc may well indeed be a a Christian? Bex: Yeah. DC: I did say that. Jack O'Brien: Right. Explain Bex: Did we drop? Jack O'Brien: for the listeners who who might not know, Bex. Bex: Well, someone was asking of you know, what are all of which religions are true? Was that the question? That was the original That's right. Jack O'Brien: It was a pic picture of all different religious figures and it said delete the ones that are false gods. DC: Jack, I was wondering when you said Rebecca, please explain whether you'd have to do the explaining. Bex: Yeah, I'm never on. It's I've Jack O'Brien: I think I think they call that man's plating. Bex: I'm not a feminist, so I don't use that word. Jack O'Brien: Okay, good. Bex: but yes, they did I mean again, you shouldn't ask me. I'm never on Instagram. But yeah, they removed all the religious figures except for Jesus. And so the person was asking Croc, why did you DC: Remove all the fake gods and then if they Bex: Yes. DC: kept Jesus. Okay, how come you didn't take Jesus off? 'Cause he's evidently Jack O'Brien: There you go. Even the rocks will cry out or the AIs will cry out. DC: Even the ground school. Bex: Or the grocks will cry up. Jack O'Brien: I laid that one up for you. Well played. Got it. Bex: Yeah, I don't know. Jack O'Brien: okay. Well, I mean, there's plenty to unpack. Dave, what was your key takeaways? Or what's been the what's been the chatter, the talk around the good life traps since Sunday's message? DC: I I think people are thankful for the clarity. I think people understand the necessity to tackle the cultural trends with with biblical accuracy and grace. you've got to realise that we are tackling ideologies and not people. And so sometimes people can get a little bit precious. About ideologies because you know someone that holds that ideology and thinking that it's a judgment towards them. No, we've got to actually be we've got to be able to actually talk about these ideologies. And truth be told, if Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, there's no other way to the Father but by him. Then by in that statement, we know that every other thing is a lie. And so every other religion is a demon. and that could be very harsh to hear. But it's the truth. And when you know the truth, the truth sets you free. And I think there's a lot of people very thankful that we're willing to speak up. And so much so, and people are that surprised and thankful and refreshed that I'm kind of wondering how often is this actually happening in Christianity? Or so we can actually warn our people. Watch out. You've got to be sober and be vigilant, the Bible says cure adversary roams around like Roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. And you can be devoured by the enemy just slotting it a part apart truth is a full lie. And so the twisting of the truth will end in a full lie. And so I think people are actually really quite refreshed and for the fact that we are going about it and nailing the ideology with clarity, but loving the person with charity. So essentially thankfulness. Jack O'Brien: I love that. Just on that, something you said there, and Bex, I'd I'd love your perspective on it. You said, you know, we know that Jesus is the truth, and therefore, by that, everything else is a lie. I've seen I've seen it said in the odd comment thread from time to time that that can be a bit of a circular definition, right? That Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life because he said he's the way, the truth, and life. Bex, how do we, yeah, how would you encourage folks to think about that side of truth. And is this just so just because Jesus said he is the truth, does that make him the truth? Bex: Hmm. Well, just because he said it, well, if he is the truth, then yes. Right. Jack O'Brien: Right, right, right. So we can test it, right? Bex: Yeah, that's right. And so I think once you've had a an encounter with Jesus, well, I mean, there's so many different levels we can talk about this, even with the the authority and reliability of the Bible, all those kinds of things, you can actually hit this not only experientially where you've actually experienced God, you've had an encounter with God. And so therefore you go, okay. It's it's like my kids when I've said this before, I think, but when they were growing up, and I would make a decision they didn't like, and I'd be like, Hey, do you know you can trust me? Right. And yeah, I know I can trust you. Okay, cool. And so then they'd be okay with my decision that I didn't like, that they didn't like, because they trusted me. And I think as you know God and you have that encounter with him and you experience him, you realize, hey, I can trust the words that he speaks through the his Bible, right? and then obviously then you can actually study it yourself and go, okay, well. What are the claims that the Bible makes and do they actually stack up? And you discover that it's not just circular reasoning, the claims in the Bible actually do stack up. So there's you've got both sides there. So but sorry, if I can just speak to something that Dave was saying as well. one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is that in the Bible with Paul, one of the things that he hit over and over and over again was for Christians not to be deceived. And I think at the core of things, this is the heart of this particular series, is that Christians aren't deceived for two reasons. One so that they themselves are not led astray. And then secondly, so they can actually recognize the the ideologies that are binding their loved ones and actually pray that through and and and not just sit back and go, it's okay, it's okay, and realize it's actually, it's actually not, it's actually damaging them, and actually then seek to be a help. One of the things that often happens with Christianity is we go, okay, inside Christianity we've got the right worldview. And then outside of the church, they're wrong. you know, those other ideologies are wrong. But what they don't realize is those other ideologies actually creep into the church. And so we might go, yeah, no, I've got a Christian worldview, but actually we're thinking, you know, from postmodernist perspective, or we're thinking our Christianity is is colored by critical theory or our Christianity is colored by these anti-God. ideologies that are actually warping our our Christian faith and the way that we see things. And in the in the early church a classic example of this was Gnosticism. Gnosticism was an ideology that was across the board in the in the Roman Empire. It was very, very widespread. But it actually infiltrated the church and became what we'd refer to as Gnostic Christianity, which was absolute heresy and pulled people away from God. And so there are ideologies that can be in culture that can actually infiltrate the church. And so we need to make sure for Dave and I as shepherds that our people are not deceived. In the same way that Paul Paul did that with with the churches that he wrote to. He's like, don't get deceived. Right. So that's core, that's core to what I'm I'm trying to do here. DC: Jack, when it comes down to it, the thought of how do you know this is accurate? You've just got to run it through a whole range of tests. Either Jesus is the way, the truth, and life, or he isn't. he's either a lunatic, a liar, or Lord. And so there's there's there's a range of then thinking through, well, if he is Lord, well, then his word and his scriptures should there should be some things that happen. Number one, The people ask, is the Bible accurate? How can we tell if the Bible is accurate? It's interesting because it was actually Islam, which was started in the 600s, that really introduced this whole notion that the Bible's being changed. But then after that happened through Islam, the Dead Sea scrolls were found, which actually proved the accuracy of the texts all the way through the Bible. So the Bible is accurate, being handed down from generation to generation to generation. You might go, well, that's a fluke. How do we know that it's actually God inspired? well, there's a range of things right there. The architecture the archaeological finds that have happened because the people have actually traced back the Bible or they've said, what's happened here, follow the Bible, and things are confirmed. Cities that were lost were found because someone followed the Bible and dug in the right spot. the historical accuracy, this is known as the most historically accurate manuscript. This is the best historical account of thousands and thousands of years. I I would say. A couple of other things right there. If there were 11 disciples that saw Jesus die, that saw him resurrected. And so what that it looks like they saw that. And it's confirmed by the fact that 11 of them of them died for their faith, but actually were punished. And many of them martyred for their faith. I can guarantee you, if that wasn't true, if they hadn't have seen it, at least one of them would have given up. Least one of them would be like, nah guys, I'm not going along with the joke. This is crazy. You guys are nuts. It's not worth it being you know been being crucified upside down is a bad idea. So I'm gonna deny Christ for that area. So people just won't die for a lie. They're not gonna die for a hoax. The other thing is then anecdotally, you can look at the places where Christianity has been outworked, where it has Bex: Yeah. DC: been faithfully lived and it leads to human flourishing individually. families and nations where it's outworked there. and so an on my life would be one that I would say follow Jesus and immeasurably better. It's night and day. And the the the last thing would be is that if God is real and he loves his kids, you can have an encounter with him. I've had that. And so all of those confirmed, all of those together is quite the the body and the evidence. And now if someone's not had an encounter with God, you can look at all of the rest and go, here's a prayer. God, if you are real. It looks Bex: Yeah, good. DC: like with this list of things that you might be. If you are real, show yourself to me. Touch my heart. Do something. Show me out of your scriptures. If these scriptures are the word of God, if you are the way, the truth, and the life, then be open to God shaping everything. He's either a lunatic, a liar, but if the third one is true and he is Lord, it changes everything. And so it it the circular logic sounds interesting until you really dig into the evidences of this. No other religion, no other religious leader stacks up like Jesus. Jack O'Brien: Mm-hmm. Yes. Amen. I love that. So Bex: Were you well? Jack O'Brien: Yeah, well said. Bex, you mentioned in the in the sermon this point on language and there's this changing of definitions is a really kind of crafty way that the different ideologies, ideas try and subvert what is truth or invert what is truth. Can you maybe speak to some examples of that and how it starts to distort reality a bit? Bex: Yeah. Gosh I mean there's so many. Look, the easiest the easiest one you'd go with is abortion is now pro choice, right? So you you use that. abortion is healthcare. Abortion Jack O'Brien: Or it it's like abortion is healthcare, right? Like it Bex: is reproductive justice, right? DC: And that child, that human Jack O'Brien: Well, I've heard I've heard it said that DC: life in the womb is just a clump of cells, Jack. Jack O'Brien: It's like abortion is healthcare like trigger warning if you're listening with children around, but abortion is healthcare like sexual assault is lovemaking. Like Bex: Exactly. Jack O'Brien: it it just ain't. DC: Like slavery is employment. Jack O'Brien: Right. These these words are useful words. Even progressive Christianity. I did you know, progressive is a word that's been hijacked. I mean, I looked back and and one of the the taglines that we use for our for our business is that we we help progressive business owners. That was originally Bex: Mm-hmm. Jack O'Brien: how we talked about it. It was a this is a positive word. And Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: now it's been yeah, usurped or hijacked. So sorry, continue. Bex: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting actually because the I I used a quote on Sunday, which is I'm gonna misquote it, but it's you know, those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it, right? it's actually yeah, and but the it's actually part of a bigger quote that talks about true progress. you for for true progress you must be retentive of the past. And he's the guy's actually saying if you actually want to progress, you must remember the past, learn from the past, grow from the past. You know, and and the irony of this is that progressivism these days is to reject the past, abandon the past, not learn from the past. And I think that's quite interesting. You know, it's it's like you say, progress is not progress anymore. you know, progress used to be, hey, let's build on the foundation of what came before now, it's let's destroy the foundations. but this whole redefinition of language is actually a core part of postmodernism. It's all part of the plan. And so what it means is when you know, if you have a discussion about a particular topic, well, by redefining the terms, suddenly you're making something that was is bad sound good, and the entire debate is up-ended, right? And then you're like, well, you're against justice. Well, no, I'm not, but you've redefined justice to mean something that I am against. we see this with gender, obviously. Gender, you know, terms don't exist. I mean. Gender, even the word gender is one of the words that's been co-opted. So the you know, gender is to do with language, right? There's gendered languages like French and Russian, etc. And and biological biological sex that we never used to have to say biological before, but you know, it used to be just sex, male, female. Now it's well, no, well, sex is one thing, gender is another thing. That is an entirely new concept, right? And what have they done? They've redefined language to mean something else. Yeah, it's it's wild and crazy. And it makes it hard to have good faith discussions with people because the language has changed, right? Jack O'Brien: Yeah. I think that's a key for the listeners, particularly the the blokes. It can get heated and it's difficult to engage in conversations. And so if you're a a good man listener here, keep tip for for players at home is like make sure you define terms when you're having a conversation with someone. It's like when you say Christianity, what do what do you it's a shame that we have to ask, but what do you mean? Or when you when you're describing Jesus, you know, like a like a Palestinian, what what do you actually mean by that? Because it it often It it makes the conversation much more objective when we can define what it is that we're talking about. Bex: Yeah, well said. Jack O'Brien: Okay. Dave, what about from from your angle? What else came up on Sunday that you want to touch on? DC: look, I think the understanding of how postmodernism, kind of as that teenage kid, that's that that stroppy teenage kid that can't get out of bed has got a problem with the world, and you can't tell me anything, then found the old voices of Marx and Foucault, all those, th those that are that that that are that are heading down the line of oppressed and oppressor. And we'll find any segregation and say this these people's problems are only there because these people oppressed them and so they're not to blame. They have no agency, it's all the fault of this one. And so then you've got this oppressed, oppressor, and the more oppressive. markers you have in your life, the more it's not your fault and the less agency you have and the more it's all their fault. And and the whole point would be in Marxism, let's blow up the system. Let's actually totally change the system. And that is the way of gaining anger and the way you get the activist class. There are people that only ever get out of bed with blue hair on to actually end up at some march for something absolutely illogical. and so they can't get out of bed for anything apart from to protest against I don't know, Pauline Hansen or something. I I don't care. Bex: Yeah. DC: I don't care that much either way. but also I've got a job. so so I I I want to we I want to engage that way. But how those that that that postmodern progressive world is quite a dead end road and quite nihilistic, mix that with some Marxism, and that's where you get the marches. And when Christianity tries to actually appeal to a world gone that crazy, they take on the attributes, and that's where you get the twisting of the words and you get the melding of these things. And what would Jesus do is now subjective to someone's emotions and feelings of what they think is just and right. And what would Jesus do? Because love is love, man. And love is patient and love is kind. 1 Corinthians 13:4 says. But the next bit is love is also not proud. and so I I I think that whole deal of this is how the world has gone crazy because you've got a secular world that's weak. And we've got a Christian world that has this a certain sect of Christianity has gone weak woke, and it's actually not no matter what the name, no matter the no matter the name, it's not actually Christianity. It's actually the melding syncretism. Of some Christian beliefs with these things, and all of a sudden Jesus is not Lord anymore. And so, but what the the great thing is, while all that is happening, it can seem quite hopeless, but there is hope in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ that stays firm. It is his bride, and he's coming back for a bride without spot or wrinkle. He's coming back for a bride that is Passionate for the bridegroom. And we're a church that wants Jesus and wants his word and is going to say, no matter how we feel, and no matter if it's popular with the world gone crazy or not, we're going to stay by the word of God. We're going to shine that light. We're going to tell everybody we can. We want to be filled with the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. And God is moving in his church. That for me was the great thing. Out of all those strands, there's this one. And I love it because revivals happen. It's amazing every Jubilee, every 49 to 50 years. There's another move of God in our nation, and we are 50 years off the last one, and it's happening right now. I don't think it's about to happen. I think we're in the middle of it. I think there's people that are passionate for prayer. I've never seen so much passion for prayer, so much passion for his presence, so much passion to serve God, so much passion to share the gospel, and we are in the middle of the first stages of revival happening right now on our watch. History is being made. That's what gets me going. Bex: We can tell. I think it is important to note because right at the start of of what you were saying just then, Dave, which by the way, I agree with everything and I was getting a bit excited right at the end about the whole revival thing. But right at the start, when you talked about how their whole their whole purpose is to destroy society, you might be listening and going, well, that's an inflammatory thing to say, but you need to actually understand, no, this is what they say. This is I'm we're telling you. what they will actually state that their goal is to actually destroy society and rebuild it. you know, a classic example is is BLM. in, you know, on their website, one of their stated goals was to actually destroy the nuclear family, right? So that these these progressive organizations, they actually will say it out loud. And so that wasn't Dave being inflammatory, that wasn't Dave exaggerating. That is one of their stated goals. It's insane. DC: Hey, can I can I ask Bex, because this is a syndicated podcast between the Good Life Formation podcast, but also good men. We have covered with good men a few times how to be a man who is a leader and tackling tough topics. And oftentimes guys have a bit of a you know when we're raising it with our family, we want to do things concrete and linear, but yet there's emotions and relationships involved. We want a men to actually be leaders in their home, but that is a That's a tr it's a tricky gig. Like it is quite a complex task to deal with all of that. Try to be the leader and also then tr try to keep some form of harmony. Bex: This is a polite way of saying that women are complicated. DC: complex, wonderful creatures, my dear. And it's it's it's it's our joy to play our role and to lead our homes. But Bex: Nice. DC: A, what what are you what are you hoping for the men of good life? What what are you looking for? If if if there's gonna be a man of God who's gonna lead his home, complex conversations, emotions, reactions, offences, difficult ones, we want to tackle it. You want men of God to be men of God in the home. Walk that through. What are you what are you expecting of the men? What are you saying, men, time to rise up and be this? And how do we tackle those complex things? Bex: Think one of the core goals of the devil in this whole environment we're in, the secular humanist, postmodern critical theory woke environment we're in, when we've seen this for decades now, is to negate the leadership of men, to tear down masculinity, to recreate men in a weak effeminate passive role. And and you know, I mean this goes back, I remember when The Simpsons came out, right? And everyone's like, look how the dad's portrayed. And it began to be a, you begin to see these patterns of the the dad who's an idiot, the bumbling idiot, or the weak passive, or the or the can't be trusted, or the, you know, all the all, you know, and this is all you've got to actually understand this is not accidental. So the devil's actually trying to remove masculinity and strength and the male leadership that God's put them in. He's trying to remove that from society. So everything, you know, one of the, I am getting to your answer, but one of the other core core parts of critical theory is actually what they call the blurring of boundaries. And what that means is where you've got categories like male and female, they need to blur, critical theory has to blur the boundaries between these categories of male and female. And this is why you have this big whole, you know, you've got the the gender spectrum now, because they've blurred this boundary. And what that means is young men are not growing up knowing what it means to be a man, and certainly not knowing what it means to be a man of God or a man of integrity or a man of wisdom or a man of courage. But God, I I believe, for me as a mum of sons and of a pastor of a church with the most incredible men in it, I think God placed in DC: And and the and the wife of one incredible husband. You forgot that bit. Bex: didn't forget that, but you are. so you interrupt me and then I lose my track. So DC: Sorry. Bex: what I what I want for my sons and what I want for the men in my church and for my husband, I I believe that God has placed something core in right in the core of men that they need a something to fight for. They need a a a purpose that they'll live and die for, right? And this is why, you know, your explorers were men. You're your generals, your great heroes, the men, not because women are not heroic, but there's something in men that go, I want to change the world. I will give my life for this thing. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And if men can can actually allow that to awaken within them again and not accept what culture tells them about having to be passive or quiet or sit down and shut up or don't mansplain or, you know, all of that is just an absolute lie from the pit of hell. And we need The men's voice. We need it more than ever before. And so I would say for men, if you're wanting to be a leader in your home and be a leader in society, do not listen to that voice that says you have to shut up. Now you have to do this with wisdom, right? This doesn't mean you barge around like a freight train or you dominating or any of that kind of stuff. You've got to have godly wisdom. but we need strength and we need masculinity and we need leadership. I was talking to a man a few years ago who was in a a position of leadership in a school. I'll say that. And we were talking about the the how do I put this? We're talking about abortion and and all that kind of stuff. And he said these words, he said and this is this was at a Christian school, he said, you know, I'm personally pro life, but I don't feel like it's my place to say what a woman can and can't do. And I'm like, you've just completely missed the entire point. We actually need men to step up. on behalf of the most vulnerable. We need men to step up on behalf of our women and our children and our unborn. And so we've just got to actually recog a lot of this is actually having your eyes opened because once you see it, you can't unsee it. If you can see this, you'll recognize it. And when you get those messages as a man to shut up and stay, you know, stay in your corner, especially, you know, straight white Christian male, shut up. We don't need your opinion. All of that kind of stuff, you actually begin to recognize it. You go, actually, I'm not going to. I'm gonna move forward with wisdom, but I'm gonna move forward with strength, and I'm gonna move forward with leadership. And I'm gonna do what's right, even when it's costly. That's what I want. Jack O'Brien: That is critical theory, right? Straight white Christian male, you have no right to say anything here. You're the reason that these problems exist. Therefore Yeah. Bex, you you alluded to a bunch of categories at the start of the message on Sunday. And particularly, towards the end, you talked about, you know, there sh there are categories where we should encourage folks and kind of gently draw them back in. And there's times when we need to expose Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: I think were the two you guys used at the end there, encourage and expose. How do we know? Like, how can you tell who who is someone who is simply maybe naively deceived that needs some encouragement? And how do we know who is someone who has an agenda that is out to do the deceiving that needs to be exposed? Like, how do we how can we how can we judge someone's motive? How are we supposed to judge? Bex: Yes. Jack O'Brien: Right. Say more because Jesus said judge not, but Paul so Jesus, Paul, again, this is like this is part of the problem, right? It's like red letters, not Paul. DC: Finish the sentence. Finish his sentence. Jack, finish your sentence. What did Jesus say? Jack O'Brien: Or Jesus said, judge not, lest ye be judged in in the old container. DC: There you go. It's got to finish the sentence, get the context. Jack O'Brien: Well, but this is the problem, right? Because there'd be folks who go, but Jesus' words weigh more than Paul's words. Jesus said, Judge not Paul Paul did say judge those inside the faith, right? So anyway, that was a lot of questions for you, Bex. Bex: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Good. Yeah. Well, I I mean, I'll say a little bit. I want Dave to probably speak pastorally to this question as well. but you yeah, there's a lot to cover of what you just said there. But Jack O'Brien: Who needs gentle encouragement and who should we expose? Bex: Yeah, okay. so before I answer that, because Dave will bounce off this, before I answer that, red letters versus Paul's letters, for those of you, you know, there's this whole thing and this is part of the woke. Is this whole red letter led red letter Christianity and where people listen to what Jesus said over what the rest of the Bible says? You need to understand all of the scriptures are scriptures. All of it is the word of God. The words of Jesus actually do not contradict the rest of the Bible. They fulfill everything that they fulfill the Bible. And so you don't go, Jesus said this and Paul said this, and therefore. No, no, no. You actually, again, I say this all the time: you've actually got to be a grown-up and understand and go, okay, well, it looks like. They're contradicting each other. Are they actually? Well, no, they're not. So let me do some study and figure this out. We do not weigh the words of Jesus higher than the words of Paul because it is all the word of God. Jesus is the word of God, which means the words of Paul are the words of Jesus. All right. now with these different categories. So I gave four different categories for picking your battles, right? And the first category was just a distraction, like it's stupid stuff that we should actually just ignore. It's things, you know. Arguing about method, are you know, make causing a big deal because they painted the walls different color or they changed the pulpit or you know, or gossip or just stupid slander, just dumb stuff. And it's a distraction to bring you away from the call of God, ignore it, right? Walk away, do not be part of that. And then the second was a a disagreement where you are both parties are reading faithful, reading scripture faithfully, but coming to a different place, right? There are disagreements around doctrine among Bible believing Christians. And and that's okay. Like there are there are secondary issues where we go, yeah, we don't exactly know. We can see each other's point of view. We have a disagreement. And in that case, we embrace and we encourage and we cheer each other on. We do not tear down other churches. We do not tear down other Christians. Now this is where it is important to learn what is good doctrine. So that you can actually recognize between that category and the one at the end that I'll talk about in a second. I think it's really important that we are always on a a lifelong journey of learning. So you can sit here and go, Well, I don't know. Okay, well, that's a great opportunity to learn, great opportunity to find out, right? and so there's there is that that sort of element there where you go, Hey, you know, there's people who believe that women shouldn't preach. I believe women should preach. I can see where they're getting it from scripture. I have a different interpretation and understanding of those same passages, both trying to be faithful to the word of God. And I go, I can see what you got there, cheer you on all the way. and then you've got the third category, which is a deficiency, and that's where people just doesn't someone doesn't know yet. They don't know that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are available for them today. That you know, it's like when Peter or Paul, can't remember who, in the book of Acts came across some some people. Who were believing in God and they're Yeah, yeah, this is awesome. They're okay, so you've been baptized, and they're like, we had John's baptism. And the guys are going, okay, you've only got half the picture. Let me give you the rest, right? That's a deficiency. And so we teach them, we come alongside them, we help them discover the next level. And then the fourth category is what we call departure, and that's a departure from the faith. That's straight out heresy. So this is where there's a disagreement about doctrine that's a core issue. And so these are these two categories that Jack's referring to is. Where is it a disagreement about doctrine where you go, okay, we just happen to disagree on that piece of doctrine, versus category four, which is a departure from actual core doctrines of the faith. And that's where it gets into heresy, and we actually have to expose that. Now, those core doctrines are the things that actually are foundational to our faith, right? If we don't have the death and resurrection of Jesus, we don't have Christianity, right? Whereas if whether a woman preaches or doesn't, well, that doesn't affect whether Christianity actually is real. So that's how you gotta go, okay. What is this a primary or a secondary doctrine? And if it's a secondary or a tertiary doctrine, go, okay, we can agree to disagree. The core things that all of Christianity agree on, right? Whether you're Catholic or Protestant, you agree that Jesus died and rose again, right? You agree with the virgin birth. And and so if someone departs from that. Then now they're in heresy. And that's why progressive Christianity is a heresy that we must actually expose, because it's removing things that make Christianity Christianity. If you don't know that Jesus died for your sins, or if they've removed the fact that you're even a sinner, or they've removed the fact that Jesus had to die in your place on the cross, they've removed the fact that Jesus is God, like those are core things. You remove them and suddenly Christianity has no power, right? It's it's it's empty now and that's where we'll actually lose their way, lose their salvation, and and that's where why we have to expose it because eternities are at stake here. DC: Bex and I were talking about this in the lead up to her preaching this and I was trying to remember and find with the Live Free guys out of out of out of Dallas because they have some definitions right there. And I eventually found it the night before Bex was preaching, so I just sat on it because you know we don't want to No, no, no, I eventually I eventually found it. There Bex: I hadn't heard the podcast, it kept saying, they do it and live free. Listen to that and I'm like, I don't have time. DC: are there are level one issues and these are essential Christian truths. This is the Christian truths that we defend, but there can be divisions based upon that. If we if those those things like salvation, j deity of Christ, a range of things like that, if people reject it, they have a different faith. You divide over that. You defend the faith at level one issues. Level two is that you disagree. These are important doctrinal convictions like Armonism and Calvinism and a range of things like that. That you would say same faith, but potentially just a different church. You would say you're a Christian, but it's gonna be very hard for us to do that together. So we disagree and differ. The level three is secondary opinions, the secondary and tertiary opinions. And so this is where we discuss, but you stay together. You unite around the key first level and second level things and go, you know what, let's let's hash this out so we can be better. So that would be the three ways that you actually just kind of you have to kind of schedule it and work out which one of those are and then work out. What are we doing? Are we defending the faith? Are we disagreeing? So it's the same faith, but maybe we can't do church together. We cheer you on, no problems. Or are we saying this is same faith, same church? Let's unite, let's work this together. Bex: By one more thing, you know, back in the distraction category, which I kind of said just ignore it, walk away. that doesn't just because I'm saying ignore it and walk away doesn't mean that though that category can't grow can't be incredibly damaging. I I was thinking while I was preparing the message, and this is you know, one of the things that didn't make the message was I look at at say a Candace Owens, right? In the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder. and the incredible things about DC: Really you've really been watching a lot of her since then, haven't you? You've really kind of gone Bex: No. DC: deep dive with Candace and Tucker. Bex: No. but in the aftermath of Charlie's murder, God was really doing something incredible. And the amount of people who actually became Christians as a direct result of what took place. And then I watch what this woman has done to systematically dismantle everything and and just horrifically go after a young widow. And She's using that category one of distraction, but she's using it to absolutely destroy. And I think that's that's the other, that's the the only kind of I guess caveat or exception I'd say to to this is, you know, yes, we should actually ignore her and and but at the same time also the damage she's doing actually needs to be exposed. And and so that's probably my only little caveat there. Cause sometimes that distraction. can be devastating to what God's actually doing in the earth. Jack O'Brien: Right. And and really we're talking about weighing people's intent. Yeah. And if if there's a silly, frivolous social media trend that is probably just a distraction, that's one thing. If there is someone who is intentionally looking to disrupt the flock, that that is a wolf in sheep's clothing, that must be must be dealt with scripturally. And it it's like, you know, as I say on the free, we've got scriptures for that. It it's very clear Bex: Mm-hmm. Jack O'Brien: on what we do with people who are preaching another gospel. Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: Right, so you confront Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: them and if they don't change it's it's expose them. That is the biblical thing to do. Bex: Yeah, yeah. It's such a funny thing. Like people don't want us to ever be tough or speak I don't know how to say. I don't want to say brutally because I don't want to be brutal ever, but y you know, people don't want you to actually tell it straight. But I just look at Paul and I'm like, he literally writes in his letters, yeah, he's done me much harm, so I've handed him over to Satan. Like, okay, got it. Next level. Next level. DC: Look, you've got to appreciate that with Paul, that he says that, he's clear about it, he's direct with the truth. but the whole point would be he's just given it over. That person is not my problem. It's actually Bex: Yeah. Yeah. DC: a pathway of going, not my problem, not my circus, not my monkeys. Because he's just gone, why would I be distracted by this? I've just given them Bex: Mm-hmm. DC: over. They're not listening, off you go. Yeah, you give room for people to come back in repentance and restoration one day, but under those conditions Bex: Mm-hmm. DC: you've just got to go, not my deal. Jack O'Brien: Okay. where are we going next, Pex? I don't think Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: it's this Sunday necessarily, but what's what's on the docket upcoming? Bex: Yeah, it's in a few weeks' time, just because of schedule disruptions. what's coming up on the docket is Islam. We're gonna do Islam. There's a a lot of misconceptions, there's a just a lot of people just don't know. And so we're going to yeah, we're gonna look at that particular ideology. DC: Can't wait. I cannot Bex: Something's gone really quiet. DC: wait. Jack O'Brien: No, it's it is, it's one of those things, right? And whether there's you know, subversive agendas in society or just we'd we don't pay attention enough to these things. We we assume what we know or we assume Bex: Mm. Jack O'Brien: the public narrative around it. And so it's worth getting into what the primary text and the primary sources actually say and what is a faithful interpretation of that presentation of of a religion. What does that actually mean? And I think people will be unpleasantly surprised is Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: my assumption. Bex: Yeah. It's it's an interesting thing. I mean, there's reason we did it in this order, because the reality is the the inroads that Islam is making in the West currently doesn't happen without secular humanism, postmodernism, progressive Christianity. The the the things we've already covered in the the last two s messages have opened the floodgates to Islam coming into the West as as a poor ideology and an increasingly influential ideology. And I've done a lot of research on this, hours and hours and hours of research and books I've read and it's I'll say this, it's far more disturbing than I ever imagined before I started researching. I knew I needed to to speak on this, I knew I needed to preach and I had done some reading and some research I've taught Islam as a worldview to my college students before. but you know, when you're doing a message like this, you go next level research and and books and you know, I don't mean just googling things, I mean actually reading books by scholars. and it is far more disturbing than I ever imagined. And it's actually gonna be a challenging one to write because some things you can't even say out loud, it's it's yeah, it's it's a it's a demonic ideology and We're gonna expose it. DC: The interesting thing is that the postmodern world is weak. Marxism is weak to the infiltrate to dominate agenda that Islam has. 1400 years ago, there were zero Muslim nations. Now I think the list is up to 63 Muslim nations. Very hard to see a place in any of those where women have rights. there's a range of things that we take for granted. but the infiltrate to dominate agenda of Islam actually oppresses all those good Muslims you think about, they are also oppressed and dominated. You Bex: Mm-hmm. DC: can't speak up against it. And the only thing, the only thing in 1400 years that has withstood and pushed back those warlord advances across the world in the history of Islam. All you have to do is read the history of Islam. The only thing that's ever worked. Is passionate, strong Christianity led by godly biblical men. Bex: Correct? DC: Every single time. That is the pattern, the only thing that's withstood it. And the secular worldview and a progressive, weak, and woke church is canon fodder to radical Islam, which is coming with an infiltrate to dominate agenda. Tough to hear that the only answer is actually Christians living the gospel. Bex: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's an incredible thing to see when you look at church history. There if you go back to the first 600 years of Christianity, there were five main centers of Christianity. and that was Rome, obviously, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople. They were the five main centers of Christianity. Of those five, Now four of them are Muslim strongholds. And that was not done willingly. so Constantinople took the longest. It was Jack O'Brien: So to be clear, not done willingly by the Christians, it was a w willing takeover, violent takeover from the Muslim faith. Bex: It was a violent takeover. It was a violent invasion takeover. Yes. the fur Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria. So Alexandria is in Egypt, which we always and this is the thing we think of, Middle East Muslim, yep, they've always been that. It's DC: Nope. Bex: Ishmael, they've been that for it for thousands of years. No, no, no. No, no, no. These were the centers of Christianity. The the early church fathers that I refer to a lot, a lot of them are from Alexandria, which is Egypt. Egypt was a Christian. based of like it was a massive base of Christianity. Jack O'Brien: And isn't it like Constantinople, Turkey, is the like the seven churches of Revelation we're all in that region? Right. Bex: Yeah, in Turkey. Yep. Yep. Seven churches of of Revelation are all in Turkey. Yep. Yeah, one of them's Ephesus, which I visited a couple of months ago. And and it is it's wild to see. So Jerusalem Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch all fell within a couple of hundred years of Islam beginning in six hundred AD. Islam does not predate Christianity, it is six hundred years after Christianity. so those first three fell pretty quickly. Constantinople didn't fall until the fourteen hundreds, so a lot later. And Rome was then obviously their goal, but they didn't didn't make it, thank you, Jesus. But anyway, lots. Jack O'Brien: I think people sitting at home, you know, for for good lifers listening along, it's like, Yeah, why you know, why do we have to it's because we're being faithful to the scriptures, right? And and Dave, you mentioned it all the time, it's Second Corinthians ten. We demolish arguments and every pretension or idea or religion that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. Islam portrays itself as a truth Bex: Mm-hmm. Jack O'Brien: in opposition to God. And we must demolish those arguments and make them captive to the to Christ, make them obedient to Christ. DC: And the key thing with that, Jack, is that as much as there is an ideology, which is an argument and a pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, the enemy wants to infiltrate our mind to be able to go, you know what? Jesus would just love them and let them in. We're we're allowing the violence in unless we actually have clarity of values, clarity of thought, and a defense for our nation. the key thing is to be able to preach the gospel. The second key thing is to ensure that we can continue to do that. And so these pretensions that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, what happens is that the enemy comes into our mind and our thoughts with little ones and a and a society that says, come on, just love is love. that that we that we've we've got to allow these things, carte blanche ability to be able to infiltrate. But the problem is. When the when their agenda is to infiltrate, to dominate, we're just asking for trouble. We've got to see the devil's plans nationally, we've got to see the devil's plans in that last part of our brain that goes, how do we actually handle this? We've got to actually be strong, be able to be clear, clarity with the word of God and the purpose of God, charity in the way that we handle the people. Bex: Yeah, really good. Jack O'Brien: I love that. It does. It equips us to be able to have more evangelistic conversations ultimately for for good lifers listening along. This is how we are to transform the world with the truth and power of Jesus Christ. It's to be equipped to DC: Yes, Jack O'Brien: to understand the ways of our enemy. It's funny, like there's a there's a juxtaposition in my mind of going, we need to really understand Islam and the seriousness of that. And I want every good lifer to read or reread the screw tape letters because Bex: Yeah. Jack O'Brien: they're the same thing, right? It's it is the same thing. It is the the the tools of the trade of our enemy. And when we know that, Bex: Yeah, yeah. Jack O'Brien: we render him powerless to the power of the gospel. Becks. Bex: Yeah, there's an amazing, amazing book called Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus. And it's by a guy called Nabeel Qureshi, who was raised as a devout Muslim. Actually, this he was a son and grandson of Muslim missionaries, right? And and so devout Muslim. And his path to Christianity was his best friend was Christian. But one of the things he says over and over in the book is that he would just laugh at all these Christians because they didn't know what they believed. And therefore, when they tried to talk about faith and they talked about, you know, and they'd have these conversations, he was like, I just he goes, I knew their Bible better than they did. I was able to argue them, you know. And he's like, this one, his best friend, who they eventually, once he became a Christian, they actually ended up working together in apologetics. But his best friend was a Christian guy who knew his stuff and was actually able to discuss it. And I think it is actually important that we we can't have our heads under a rock. And and it is important to actually go, okay, yeah, I I have actually researched Islam. I do actually understand the differences between Islam and Christianity. You know, I don't think it's just another branch of Christianity. We're not praying to the same God. It's actually important to know these things and and know why. And the other quote that comes to mind is there's one which again I'm gonna butcher it, but it talks about if you want to see, if you wanna know what Satan's actually doing in the earth. Look at what you're not allowed to talk about. Right. Soon as they talk about that, ooh. no one must don't talk about that. Don't talk about that. Well, okay, well we're right over the target then, aren't we? So Jack O'Brien: We are certainly. Bex: there you go. Jack O'Brien: Fun and games. It behoves us. okay, well, there you go. Sorry, behooves, yes. Bex: Behooves, Jack. Behooves. Jack O'Brien: looking forward to it. That's been fun. Thanks, Dave. Thanks, Bex. Any DC: So good. What a great what a great episode. S such a great one to syndicate, Jack, across both the the podcast. Jack O'Brien: Yes, there you go. If you if y Bex: Syndicate sounds so fancy. Jack O'Brien: Yeah if you if you're not a listener of the other one, go and find it on the Spotify. Then give us a re give us a review and leave some comments. We'll jump in the Spotify comments and grill day with some more questions. DC: If you if you see the shorts on Instagram or any socials, if you see the shorts from these podcasts, please just like, comment. that'll help other people see it and be able to actually open the doorway for people to hear the gospel through these podcasts. Jack O'Brien: Certainly. All right. Thanks, Pastor Dave. Thanks, Pastor Bix. DC: Cheers. Bex: Catcha.