Latest / Heroes Behind the Badge / Bill Bratton — Broken Windows, Stop-and-Frisk, and the Defund Years | Part 1

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Bill Bratton — Broken Windows, Stop-and-Frisk, and the Defund Years | Part 1 · Heroes Behind the Badge

0:00
Bill Bratton: The d- defund movement was one of the
0:02
stupidest movements that was ever precipitated and
0:06
inflicted upon American policing.
0:16
Paul Boomer: That is Bill Bratton, the only person ever to run both
0:20
the NYPD and the LAPD, and the man most responsible for the
0:24
crime turnaround of the 1990s.
0:27
He got to that conclusion after 50 years and six departments.
0:31
Dennis Collins: Bill Bratton's name is synonymous with policing.
0:35
Uh, he's often been called America's top cop.
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The lasting changes Bill made in America's law enforcement are
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n- nothing short of legendary.
0:46
Today, I'm interested in learning about how policing
0:51
changed Bill Bratton.
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What has he learned about power, trust, people, and himself?
0:59
And what did he have to learn the hard way?
1:03
Bill, what an honor and a pleasure to welcome you to
1:06
Heroes Behind the Badge.
1:08
We are delighted you're here.
1:10
Thanks for joining us.
1:11
Bill Bratton: Well, it's great to be with the two of you today.
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Thank you.
1:15
Dennis Collins: After more than 50 years in law enforcement,
1:18
starting way back, 23-year-old Boston cop, 1970, I even got
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the badge number, badge 1190.
1:27
Very good.
1:27
If you could, if you could go back-
1:29
Bill Bratton: I still have the original badge.
1:31
It reads Patrolman.
1:32
Dennis Collins: Patrolman.
1:33
Bill Bratton: That's
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Dennis Collins: where
1:34
Bill Bratton: it all- That's re- that's reflective
1:35
of one of the changes.
1:36
It's no longer patrolman, it's police officer.
1:39
Dennis Collins: Police officer, yeah.
1:40
If you could go back to your younger self, what would you
1:45
warn your younger self about?
1:49
Bill Bratton: Expectations.
1:51
Uh, the idea, uh, I grew up wanting to be a cop, uh, from
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my earliest memory, and, uh, thankfully that happened in
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1970, just back from Vietnam War.
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Boston Police Department was expanding.
2:05
A new union had formed and had demanded two-man cars-
2:10
Yeah … and the mayor at the time went along with that.
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And, um, the expectations I had of the profession had been shaped by
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the 1950s, early '60s television.
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Uh, Dragnet, Jack Webb, Badge 714.
2:26
Dennis Collins: 714, yep.
2:28
Bill Bratton: Car 54, Where Are You?,
2:29
Toody and Muldoon.
2:31
Uh-
2:31
Dennis Collins: Oh my gosh, yeah.
2:33
Bill Bratton: It was nine to
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Dennis Collins: Miller.
2:33
Yep.
2:33
Bill Bratton: On the drama side, you had Naked City,
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and then moving forward into the '70s, you had Police
2:39
Woman, you had Police Story.
2:41
Police Story is still one of my favorite.
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I think that, uh, kinda modeled after the Joseph
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Wambaugh series of books of the, uh, '60s and '70s, was
2:50
a very accurate depiction of policing at that time.
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Craig Floyd: Right.
2:54
Bill Bratton: So expectations, uh, of a, coming into a profession,
2:59
uh, what I came into in the Boston Police Department, I would
3:02
not describe as a profession.
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It was a, uh, a tough police department, a tough environment.
3:09
Yeah.
3:09
A lot of corruption, a lot of racism-
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Dennis Collins: Mm
3:12
Bill Bratton: some degree of brutality, a lot of incompetence.
3:16
Uh, and the realism that the television shows of the '80s,
3:22
'90s, Hill Street Blues, some of the others, began to depict that
3:26
was missing from the Dragnet, uh, Adam-12 series of the '50s and
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'60s, um- It took television and the movies a while to catch up
3:38
to the realism of policing- Right
3:40
in the '70s.
3:41
Thankfully, that has changed dramatically,
3:44
uh, over the 50 years
3:45
Dennis Collins: I've been- So what, what, uh… You
3:47
say your expectations.
3:48
That's, that's an interesting… What, what, uh, how have
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the expectations of policing changed, uh, in the time since
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1970 when you first started?
3:59
Bill Bratton: Well, I, I think we're in a period of
4:00
time, unfortunately, coming out of the era of the,
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uh, George Floyd murder-
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Dennis Collins: Yeah
4:07
Bill Bratton: uh, some of the turmoil around the Ferguson,
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uh, uh, uh, shooting earlier than that, that, um, even while
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we had made phenomenal gains, particularly in the '90s in the
4:20
embrace of community policing, the concept of partnership,
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problem-solving, and prevention, the three Ps, uh, a movement that
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I was one of the leaders of, Chuck Ramsey and others, uh, we really
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had begun to draw police much closer and more intimately into
4:37
the communities we were serving, particularly minority communities.
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Um, particularly coming out of the turmoil, the
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race riots of the '60s.
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Boston, uh, my first 10 years of policing were all about
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desegregation of public schools, public housing, and the- Right,
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right … tremendous racial turmoil, uh, being the, the man
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in the middle, if you will, law enforcement against the, the
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angry mobs on the one side and the, uh, the minorities on the
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other side just trying to get what was, uh, uh, due them in
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terms of under our Constitution.
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But, uh- Yeah … the last 10 years in policing have been one
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of struggle, uh, to keep that bond between police and community, and
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it's been very strained and very stressed and, um, remains that
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way at the moment unfortunately.
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Dennis Collins: Why do you think that is?
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I'm sure y- y- you've had, uh, quite a seat, uh, over the last
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50 years in law enforcement.
5:29
What do you think's going on?
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Why is that so difficult?
5:33
Bill Bratton: Well, what's interesting, in the '90s, we
5:35
had the Rodney King beating.
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First time there'd been a televised, widely broadcast, uh,
5:41
depiction of police brutality, the subsequent trials, uh,
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the acquittal, the riots.
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But out of that came, and, uh, I was able to play a role in
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the sense of, uh, the benefit that came out of that, uh, my
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time as chief of police in Los Angeles, followed by Charlie Beck.
5:58
Um, my time in New York City in the '90s, embracing
6:02
community policing.
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We had the, uh, Harvard, uh, uh, Community Policing,
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uh, executive sessions that gave policing a, a mission,
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a, and gave it strategies.
6:15
And we had, uh, great success.
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And then of course, plus we also had, uh, funding by the
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federal government, the community policing initiatives- Sure
6:21
of Bill Clinton.
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100,000 new cops, uh, prisons to accommodate the, uh, uh,
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taking back, uh, streets from the violence, crime
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that was, uh, basically overrunning so many of them.
6:34
But the difference between the '90s, '80s, '90s
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turnaround was the turnaround out of 2014, Ferguson,
6:45
2020, George Floyd-
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Dennis Collins: Yeah
6:47
Bill Bratton: was that in 2026 now, six years after Floyd,
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eight, 10 years after Ferguson, uh, we're still struggling
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to, uh, regain the trust that we got after the last crises
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of Rodney King, and that's because of a number of things.
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One, t- terrorism.
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Uh, prior to 2001, 9/11, policing was about crime and disorder.
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Uh, we didn't do much about terrorism.
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But after 9/11, we had to get into terrorism in a big way,
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whether you're a 10-person department or a 50,000-person
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LAPD, NYPD, excuse me.
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And, uh, the challenges and the, uh, demands on
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policing have expanded exponentially with technology,
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social media, internet.
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Uh, just think about our world today, the concerns about
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drones, the concerns about cyber, the concerns about AI as
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we're, as we're sitting here.
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The world is changing- much more rapidly, uh, for law
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enforcement the challenges than it did in the '80s and '90s, as
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formidable as they were back then.
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And so going back to the point about expectations, uh, my
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expectations were always that police are an essential part
7:59
of democracy and that, um, um, we were not fulfilling
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it in the '70s and '80s.
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The '90s we began to, uh, and at that time I had moved into
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leadership roles and I was feeling very good about the profession
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that I had not felt so good about in the '70s and '80s.
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And, uh, at this particular time, um, I'm concerned that
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we're struggling once again with all these new challenges,
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threats, uh Out of crisis comes opportunity, though.
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That- I've always believed that, and God knows we have
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no shortage of crises at the moment to, to try to seize-
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Yeah … the opportunities.
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Dennis Collins: Pick your crisis, huh?
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Bill Bratton: Well, what, what's today, Wednesday?
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Uh- Yeah … basically, today's Wednesday- Yeah.
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Hey- … so tomorrow's, tomorrow's gonna be a different set of them.
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Dennis Collins: A different set, for sure.
8:45
Well,
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Craig Floyd: I- Hey, Bill, um, let me first say that, uh,
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again, thank you for joining us.
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Um, but I, I wanted to also, uh, comment for our audience
8:54
sake, um, when we were building the National Law Enforcement
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Officers Memorial and the National Law Enforcement Museum, um, i-
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it was a struggle, all right?
9:04
Uh, uh, when we were building the memorial, we didn't…
9:07
people didn't know who Craig Floyd was.
9:09
I was going around in a three-piece suit asking
9:11
people for money and
9:12
Bill Bratton: support.
9:13
Three-piece suit guy with a tin cup.
9:14
Craig Floyd: Exactly, and it's like, "He, he wasn't
9:17
a cop. What, what's this guy all about?" You know?
9:20
And, and that was tough, but… and as you know better than I,
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uh, police are, are cynical.
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They- you're, you're skeptical, and, um, uh, that, that,
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uh, made it difficult.
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But, uh, eventually, uh, I was accepted, and the idea of a
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national memorial and eventually a national museum, uh, was accepted.
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But it was mainly accepted because people like you, people-
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leaders in the industry, uh, of law enforcement , um, embraced
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it and got behind it and lent their support and reputations.
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And I just want our audience to understand, uh, the
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relationship you and I have.
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Uh, you are one of those great leaders who embraced the concept
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of a memorial for law enforcement that's now in Washington, DC,
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and a museum, and, and those things would not be there if
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not for people like you that, uh, really got behind the, uh,
10:10
campaigns and made it happen.
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So, uh, let, let me just start with a big thank you for that.
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Now-
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Bill Bratton: Th- thank, thank you-
10:18
Craig Floyd: Yeah, go ahead, Bill
10:18
Bill Bratton: thank you for the opportunity to work with you.
10:21
Rikki and I, uh, attended any number of, uh, fundraising
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events at IACP, Major City Chiefs, with you, uh, looking
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at your Target dog, uh, s- uh, standing there beside you.
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Yeah, I loved it.
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Uh, one of the major sponsors of all that you were trying to
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do, uh, Verizon, the company that's m- one of my clients now.
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Uh, you were able to gather up, in addition to getting police
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leadership and union support for your effort, uh, against great
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odds again in the, uh, '80s and '90s when there was a lot of
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sentiment against the police because of, um, uh, uh, the
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history of the '70s and '80s.
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Uh, you were able to turn that around and, uh, and get support,
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uh, for that, uh, museum, for the expansion of the memorial.
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And, uh, you know, so all of us coming into the profession
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are associated with it, uh, as we eventually leave it.
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Uh- Would like to think that we have a legacy, that there's
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something we're leaving behind.
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You have an extraordinary legacy in the sense of that museum
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and that memorial wall, uh, uh, to feel very good about
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Craig Floyd: And le- let me say, uh, ju- just to, uh,
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comment on what you said, Rikki, your wife, was such a
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leader in that effort, too.
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She, uh, she was such an incredible personality.
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She emceed a number of our- Yeah
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fundraising events and promotional events, and, uh,
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can't thank her enough as well.
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But let, let's turn the tables, uh, to some, uh, recent
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events that I think, uh, your comments would be important.
11:51
Uh, number one, 9/11.
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We just, uh, commemorated the 25th anniversary of 9/11, and you're
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on the Homeland Advisory Council, um, uh, uh, for this nation of
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ours, and your voice and many other leaders like yourself are
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helping to keep our homeland safe.
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Uh, my question to you first is, how did 9/11 happen?
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What, what were the, the, the flaws in the system, if you
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will, uh, to allow such terrorism to occur on, on our homeland?
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And what have we done, uh, to make it safer?
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Uh, and is it safer today than it was, uh, on 9/11 in 2001?
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Bill Bratton: That's a great question.
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Uh, uh, and let me respond to it.
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The Homeland Security Advisory Council you reference, uh- All the
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secretaries at the, uh, national level have advisory councils.
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When Homeland Security is created as, uh, w- now one
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of the largest agencies in the federal government, and
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one of the most impactful on citizens day-to-day in 2002,
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2003, that the, uh, council, advisory council was created.
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I joined it and was fortunate to serve, uh, with Bill Webster,
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who was the first chair of the advisory council for many years,
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and then I succeeded him when he stepped down in 22, '23.
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And, uh, so I had a, uh, a bird's-eye view of, of the
13:19
fight against terrorism over that 20-some-odd-year period
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of time, coupled with my time in the LAPD, 2002 to 2009,
13:27
2014 to 2016 in the NYPD.
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I thought my career was over in 1996 when I left the NYPD for the
13:34
first time, but the events of 9/11 catapulted me back into policing.
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I was desperate to get back into policing 'cause I felt
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I had a lot that I could contribute to the turnaround
13:47
that policing was going to have to do to face the new challenge.
13:51
Crime and disorder, we had faced it in the '90s
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and we were winning.
13:54
Overall crime in the US was down by 40%.
13:57
Cities like New York, 70, 80%.
13:59
We finally, with CompStat processes, had understood,
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uh, that the focus of policing had to be on the prevention of
14:06
crime, not just responding to it.
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Dennis Collins: Right.
14:08
Bill Bratton: And the problem with, um, um, uh, one of the,
14:12
uh, catalysts for the creation of 9/11, the horrific events of
14:16
that day, was that idea of being focused more on response rather
14:21
than prevention, that we were really not geared up, either
14:25
at the federal level or the state and local level certainly,
14:28
to try to prevent terrorism.
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We were gearing up so much for the response to it after the fact.
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And an essential component of success in dealing with crime
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and disorder in the '90s, and now terrorism, crime, and disorder
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in the 21st century, is the essentiality of collaboration.
14:46
And the collaboration between state, local, and feds on
14:50
terrorism didn't exist-
14:52
Craig Floyd: Mm
14:52
Bill Bratton: before 9/11.
14:53
Interesting.
14:53
Collaboration at the federal level, the multiple agencies
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that each had responsibility for terrorist-related
15:00
responsibilities, uh, by law they weren't even allowed
15:03
to talk with each other.
15:04
CIA and FBI could not share information.
15:08
FBI could focus nationally, CIA, internationally.
15:13
That changed after 9/11.
15:14
After 9/11, the laws were created requiring that they collaborate,
15:18
and we now have, what, 50 to 60 fusion centers around the country
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with fed, state, and local.
15:23
We gather together to exchange information.
15:27
So the major change after 9/11 was, one, the requirement
15:33
and necessity to collaborate.
15:35
It took a lot of fighting, uh, local chiefs, myself included,
15:39
Chuck Ramsey and others, to convince the federal government,
15:42
"You gotta let us into the room," because they were still, even
15:44
after 9/11, they wanted to kinda do it on their own, and to not
15:48
use the 800,000 eyes and ears of, uh, American policing was crazy.
15:54
So we finally get into the room and have been benefiting from it.
15:57
What we're also benefiting from, uh, and this is a two-sided coin,
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is the, uh, advent of technology and social media, the internet,
16:06
so integral to effectively, uh, preventing crime and terrorism.
16:13
But at the same time, even while we- we're using that technology,
16:17
the criminals are using it.
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They're as, as creative as we are, uh, in terms of how they
16:22
use it, and they certainly, uh, benefited them in the,
16:26
uh, the terrorist activities.
16:28
Al-Qaeda used it minimally.
16:30
ISIS embraced it, and ISIS used it to inspire, to train, to recruit.
16:35
And then when they basically went to encryption,
16:38
they really blindsided, uh, us for a long time.
16:42
So going forward into the 21st century, collaboration
16:45
is the essentiality.
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Uh, continue to focus on prevention, measure our success
16:50
by what we're preventing rather than how well we're responding.
16:54
And, uh, we're also, uh, basically, um, the idea is, um,
17:01
to always be learning, always be training, uh, because the
17:04
world is changing constantly.
17:06
Look at AI.
17:06
AI, just in the last couple years … Two years ago,
17:09
who the hell would've been able to explain what AI was?
17:12
And re- rem- remember, uh, basically in 2006, 2007, when
17:16
Twitter came on the scene, who the hell knew what Twitter was,
17:19
or the cloud, for that matter?
17:20
The
17:20
Craig Floyd: cloud.
17:21
Bill Bratton: When I first heard about the cloud, I said,
17:22
"What are you talking about?
17:23
It's gonna rain?" And
17:24
Craig Floyd: then- That's true
17:26
Bill Bratton: just think of all the things that
17:28
our world is impacted by.
17:29
The war in Ukraine right now, the, uh, that's changing
17:32
warfare, uh, around the issue of drones and policing, and
17:37
within five years, every police department in America's
17:39
gonna be using drones more than we'll be, uh- Patrol cars
17:42
yes.
17:42
Craig Floyd: That's a great innovation.
17:44
A lot already are, yeah.
17:45
I'm curious, where, where were you on 9/11?
17:48
Bill Bratton: 9/11, I was in the private sector.
17:50
I was working with the Kroll company in New York.
17:53
I had, uh, actually sharing offices with the late, great
17:56
Jerry Hauer, who was the first, uh, uh, commissioner of emergency
18:00
management in New York City.
18:02
Uh, and Jerry, an extraordinary individual,
18:05
passed away recently with 9/11 cancer-related, uh, illnesses.
18:09
And, uh, I felt so helpless on that day, uh, in my office,
18:15
basically getting deluged with calls from clients, many of
18:18
whom were in the Wall Street area, about, you know, w-
18:22
what's going on, or what do we need to do, et cetera.
18:24
And, uh, the frustration of wanting to be there,
18:29
that it is this idea of, of, um… Public safety has
18:34
always been my, my thing.
18:36
Uh, the public s- private sector, make a very good living in it,
18:39
have been very successful in it, but my heart and soul has been,
18:43
going back to childhood, has been public safety, policing.
18:47
And not just public safety, but leadership in public safety.
18:50
Um, uh, I'm a leader.
18:52
I, I, I like leading.
18:54
I like dealing with crises.
18:56
I like assembling Super Bowl-type teams to take on challenges.
19:02
And I missed it that day, this idea of just
19:05
advising and consulting.
19:07
Uh, I'm a good advisor.
19:09
I'm a good consultant.
19:09
I get paid a lot of money to do that.
19:11
But, uh, I actually like leading and making decisions,
19:15
like creating initiatives.
19:18
And, uh, 9/11 became the catalyst to get back into policing.
19:22
I lucked out that Kroll, at that time, had bid on the
19:26
federal monitorship of the LAPD.
19:30
Mm. So right after 9/11, for the next year, I was part of the
19:34
monitorship team in the LAPD, embedded in it, learning about it.
19:39
And so when the chief's job opened up, I applied for it.
19:41
I campaigned for it.
19:43
I would've thought I would've been one of the front, uh, f-
19:45
front runner candidates for that position with my experience in
19:48
New York, but they didn't want me.
19:50
West Coast doesn't like East Coast.
19:51
Dennis Collins: Uh-huh.
19:52
Bill Bratton: Yep.
19:52
I was pretty much told, uh, "Don't apply because
19:54
you're not gonna get it."
19:56
Fortunately, I had the backing of the mayor at that
19:58
time, Mayor Jim Hahn, and others, and I, I campaigned.
20:02
I'm, I'm not afr- ashamed to admit I lobbied for it, and,
20:05
uh, I worked very hard to get it, and thankfully, I got it.
20:08
Dennis Collins: Yeah.
20:09
Let me, uh, let me, uh, rewind just a minute because I think
20:13
you first came, at least to my attention, maybe to the attention
20:16
of most people in the US, when you got the first New York job, and
20:21
that was with Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
20:25
And I think the question that I've always wanted to ask somebody,
20:28
and I've never had the chance until now, what was it like
20:31
working with Mayor Giuliani?
20:34
Bill Bratton: He was an inter- was and is an interesting character.
20:37
Uh, smart as a whip, uh, one of the hardest working people
20:41
I've ever, uh, uh, experienced working with and working for.
20:46
Uh, a multi- multifaceted personality.
20:51
Uh, can be funny, can be, um, engaging, can be vicious, can
20:56
be mean- … can be spiteful.
20:59
Uh, he, he's a Rubik's Cube that you know- Exactly … in
21:02
terms of, you know, you n- never quite knew which side of
21:05
the cube you were gonna get.
21:06
Dennis Collins: Yeah, from day to day probably, huh?
21:08
Bill Bratton: At the same time, he and I, uh, I'd, I'd
21:11
like to think very different personalities, but very similar
21:15
management, uh, focus, the idea that, uh, wanting very much to
21:19
be leaders who create change.
21:22
"To create change, you must become the change,"
21:24
Mahatma Gandhi's expression.
21:26
And, uh, he was that type of leader.
21:27
He, he strongly believed in the changes he wanted to
21:31
make in New York based on his law enforcement career.
21:34
I strongly believed in what I could do based on
21:37
my law enforcement career.
21:38
His was federal, mine was local.
21:41
I think the combination of the two together, uh, I, uh,
21:46
it's, it's ego on my part to say this, but, uh, the
21:48
turnaround in New York would not have happened without me.
21:51
The turnaround in New York would not have happened without him.
21:53
Right.
21:54
And was, uh, in some respects we were in a three-legged race
21:57
together, and eventually the ties that bound became un- unbound,
22:02
and we went our separate ways.
22:03
But we will forever be, uh, uh… Our legacy will be a shared legacy
22:08
of beginning the crime turnaround in New York and accelerating
22:11
the crime turnaround in America.
22:13
Dennis Collins: So that was an interesting- So it,
22:14
it- … story about, uh, how, how that all happened.
22:17
Uh, you were, uh, interviewed by Time Magazine, I
22:21
believe, wasn't it?
22:21
You were given a cover photo on Time Magazine.
22:26
Uh, how did that play with the boss?
22:28
Bill Bratton: Not well.
22:30
Let me give you a little background.
22:31
I write about this in two of my books that, uh- Yes … um,
22:35
lead to the story on that.
22:36
Uh-
22:39
I was already on the way out in December of 1993, excuse
22:45
me, 1995 going into '96.
22:47
Uh, be- being pushed out by Giuliani, death
22:50
by a thousand knives.
22:51
Dennis Collins: Yeah.
22:51
Bill Bratton: Um, uh, for a variety of reasons that say that
22:54
our mutual success, crime down dramatically, uh, and getting a
22:58
lot of attention, including Time Magazine in that, uh, uh, edition
23:04
wanting to do a story about crime, the ma- major turnaround
23:07
in the country and in New York, and New York being the catalyst
23:09
of so much of it in the country.
23:11
And, uh, the editor of that particular piece approached me
23:18
about wanting to do the story, and, uh, the photo that they
23:23
were going to put on the cover, uh, there was a war going on
23:26
at that time in Bosnia, I think it was, and depending what was
23:30
gonna happen with that war that day, might've been a cover story
23:33
about Bosnia or it could be a cover story about New York.
23:36
Dennis Collins: Right.
23:36
Bill Bratton: So they, they wanted to take a picture to have just
23:38
in case, and they approached me and said, uh, you know, uh, "We
23:43
can do it with just you or we can see if the mayor's available."
23:46
And to be very frank with you, I felt if the mayor had been
23:49
asked, uh, it e- either would not have happened or it would've
23:52
happened with just him and not me.
23:55
Paul Boomer: Yeah.
23:55
Bill Bratton: And so I, um, uh, suggested to the editor, uh, who
24:00
did not like Rudy anyway, he was a former New York reporter who
24:03
had, uh, crossed paths with him.
24:05
And I suggested, "Well, I'll, I'll be happy to do it myself,"
24:08
understanding fully- The temperament of that mayor about
24:13
that betrayal, if you will, that being on Time Magazine.
24:17
And, uh- Yeah, really … ironically, the, when it came out,
24:20
there was a major snowstorm in New York, so it didn't get out onto
24:24
the streets of New York initially.
24:25
It got out into the rest of the country.
24:27
Mm. And this was w- largely before the internet in terms of
24:30
where so many of these magazines are now on the internet, so the
24:34
picture was slow to roll out.
24:37
And, uh, when it did come out, uh-
24:39
Dennis Collins: Yeah
24:40
Bill Bratton: when the mayor was asked about it at the first
24:41
press conference where it had become available, uh, he made
24:44
a comment, I think the comment was, I was wearing a trench
24:47
coat, a Burberry trench coat, and he s- and he said, uh, they
24:50
were, he was asked his reaction to it, he said, "Nice coat."
24:56
Dennis Collins: I guess that's, uh, appropriate, huh?
24:58
Yeah.
24:58
Bill Bratton: And, and but, uh- Yeah … two
25:00
months later I was gone.
25:01
When I went over to see him at City Hall, he gave
25:03
me a, a key to the city.
25:05
Wow.
25:06
Wow.
25:06
At the press conference, and he gave me a stack of 25 copies
25:09
of the New York Time Magazine.
25:11
Wow.
25:13
Of course, he didn't… I had, I had my, uh-
25:16
Dennis Collins: That was his humorous side maybe, huh?
25:17
Bill Bratton: That was his humorous side in a sense- … but
25:20
meanwhile, it was another knife in a thousand cuts.
25:23
Dennis Collins: Yeah, really.
25:23
Goodness.
25:24
Bill Bratton: A year or so later, well, a couple years later, I'm
25:26
chief of police in Los Angeles.
25:27
Dennis Collins: Yeah.
25:28
Bill Bratton: He's now announced he's running for president,
25:31
and he's in LA fundraising, and he wanted to come by and
25:34
see me, because he was gonna be very concerned about my being
25:37
approached about what I thought about him running for president.
25:40
Dennis Collins: Right.
25:40
Bill Bratton: So he was looking to kind of mend
25:42
fences, and I'm not somebody who ever carries a grudge.
25:44
There's not a person I've ever met that I would not
25:47
acknowledge or say hello to if they come up to me.
25:49
And so I still remember Rudy walking down the long
25:52
hallway to my office at LA Police Headquarters, and then
25:55
bringing him into my office, floored with memorabilia.
25:58
Kind of looks like the backdrop in your office there in this picture,
26:01
and Craig's, that- And among the memorabilia was, uh, a picture
26:05
of Rudy giving me the key to the city and the key to the city.
26:10
And Rudy says, "Oh, I remember giving you that."
26:11
And I said, "Yeah, but you also remember the next day
26:13
he changed all the locks?"
26:15
And he just, he just roared with laughter at that one.
26:19
One, one of my favorite memories.
26:22
Craig Floyd: Do you have any relationship with him these days?
26:24
Any interaction?
26:25
Bill Bratton: No, the last time, uh, the mayor and I were
26:27
together, I had invited him to breakfast at the Harvard
26:30
Club, and the breakfast was scheduled for an hour.
26:32
We ended up spending two and a half hours together- Yeah
26:35
just kind of recollection.
26:37
And, uh, this would've been a number of years ago
26:40
before he got, uh, teamed up heavily with, uh, Trump.
26:43
And, uh, his staff was constantly coming in because he was…
26:47
We- it was an hou- scheduled for an hour, and they were two
26:49
and a half hours later, we're still there shooting the breeze.
26:51
And, uh, he was obviously enjoying the walk down memory lane.
26:55
And, uh, that was really the last time, uh, I've seen him in
27:00
person was that breakfast, and that was- Mm … oh, has to be
27:03
seven, eight, nine years ago.
27:05
Yeah.
27:05
Craig Floyd: Uh, and one, one thing that we need to talk
27:08
about, if you talk about your relationship, uh, with Giuliani
27:11
in those days as commissioner, is, uh, broken windows.
27:15
All right?
27:16
That was a key philosophy of policing that really, I think,
27:20
changed everything in terms of crime in New York City and, and
27:24
around the country with those departments that followed suit.
27:28
Um, explain the, the theory behind broken windows, why it
27:32
was successful in your view, and, uh, is it something that we
27:36
should be continuing to do today?
27:39
Bill Bratton: Certainly it's something we should be discussing.
27:42
And let me give you a, a, a background synopsis on it.
27:45
Uh, I was first exposed to it at, uh, as a young sergeant.
27:50
I'd been invited up to the Police Commissioner Bob
27:52
diGrazia's office in Boston, who was entertaining a visiting,
27:55
um, uh, c- commissioner from the Metropolitan Police
27:58
in London, uh, Sir Mark.
28:01
And, uh, at that meeting, he distributed, uh, a copy
28:04
of Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles of Policing,
28:07
which has become my Bible.
28:09
It's the, it's the platform and the planks that I stand on.
28:12
The first of those, uh, nine principles was, "The basic mission
28:17
for which the police exists is to prevent crime and disorder."
28:22
Five most important words in policing, 'cause up
28:25
until 9/11, that was it.
28:27
Then 9/11 terrorism expanded the accordion, if you will.
28:32
Uh, shortly thereafter, I was appointed to lead a
28:34
neighborhood policing initiative in the Back Bay area of the
28:38
city of Boston, and one of the first community policing
28:40
initiatives in the country.
28:42
And as I was organizing community meetings four nights a week,
28:46
bringing my sector cops to the meetings, et cetera, that, uh, had
28:50
several young women working with me who were funded by, uh, many of
28:53
the institutions in that area who were concerned with the growing
28:56
crime and disorder in the area.
28:59
Uh, and at the end of the night, they would tally
29:03
up all the questions that were asked by the audience.
29:05
I went over the crime statistics.
29:06
"Here's what's going on in your neighborhood." But we found
29:08
that the vast majority of what they were concerned with was
29:11
not the serious crime, but the disorder, the prostitutes, the
29:14
gang on the corner, the public drinking, the growing homeless
29:17
population, particularly the mentally ill that were being let
29:20
out of the mental institutions by the hundreds of thousands.
29:23
And so early on- 1978, four years before Kelling and Wilson's
29:28
famous Broken Windows article in The Atlantic, I was living
29:33
Broken Windows, understanding the Sir Robert Peel emphasis
29:37
on you have to deal with crime and disorder, because what is
29:40
it that people see every day?
29:42
Disorder.
29:43
Yeah.
29:43
Most people, even in the most crime-ridden city in New York
29:46
in the 1990s, one out of 10 were the victims of serious crime.
29:50
The other nine were victims of the disorder that they were seeing.
29:53
Yet in the '70s and '80s, for a variety of reasons, one
29:56
of it's shortage of police officers, but also shortage
29:59
of leadership vision, we were focused entirely on responding
30:02
to 911 calls and serious crime.
30:05
We were being judged by, uh, crime rates going up
30:08
and down without paying much attention and not having many
30:12
resources focused on disorder.
30:14
I have come to strongly believe, Craig, that, uh, to
30:17
be successful, and I think I've proven this in every assignment
30:21
I've ever had, you have to focus like a doctor feeling-
30:24
dealing with a serious illness.
30:26
He also needs to understand everything else that's going
30:28
on in your body, because some of those other minor things, if
30:31
not treated, are gonna prevent you from dealing successfully
30:35
with the major illness.
30:36
So the idea I've embraced throughout my career, starting
30:40
early in my career, was this belief that you had to
30:43
do both at the same time.
30:45
And so I did that in the '80s in the three police
30:48
departments I led here.
30:49
Did it in 1990 when I went to New York to take
30:52
over the transit police.
30:54
Focus on much more disorder than crime in the subway, but people
30:58
felt there was much more crime, not really fully understanding
31:01
that what's creating their fear was all the disorder.
31:04
So, uh, by successfully reducing crime and disorder
31:08
by working on both, Giuliani noticed as he was running for
31:12
mayor for the second time.
31:13
He lost the first time to Dave Dinkins.
31:16
And I still remember meeting with him and George Kelling,
31:19
uh, who he wanted to talk with us about how did you
31:21
get crime down in the subway?
31:23
And we talked about crime and disorder, broken windows,
31:26
and he embraced that.
31:27
So when we came in as his first commissioner, myself with
31:31
Kelling as one of my advisors, he wholeheartedly supported
31:34
going after the disorder, the squeegee pests, the prostitution,
31:38
the drug dealing. And, uh, it has been my mantra, my nine
31:43
principles of policing, my belief that you have to, uh, deal with
31:47
broken windows simultaneously.
31:49
And third area that has been co- kind of conflated with it
31:53
in the last 10 years is this attempt on the part of the,
31:58
the left, if you will, the p- political philosophy to the left,
32:02
the ultra left, trying to tie broken windows, quality-of-life
32:06
policing in with the controversy around stop, question, and frisk.
32:10
Dennis Collins: Mm-hmm.
32:11
Bill Bratton: Stop, question, and frisk, the
32:12
essential tool of policing.
32:13
How do you function if you don't have the authority to
32:16
stop and question someone?
32:17
Dennis Collins: Really?
32:17
Bill Bratton: Yet I, I go crazy when I see a chief of
32:19
police saying, "We don't do stop, question, and frisk."
32:22
Well, there, that's why your crime is up so, so high.
32:24
You can't police without it.
32:26
My first class in the police academy in 1970 was the
32:30
recently 1968 Terry versus Ohio stop, question, and frisk
32:35
constitutional guidelines.
32:37
Well, what's going on now, and this, this is a controversy
32:40
that I'm right in the middle of because I'm a staunch defender
32:42
of broken windows, staunch defender of stop, question,
32:46
and frisk, in every instance, though, you have to have policies,
32:50
procedures, guidelines, training, supervision, and accountability.
32:55
If you don't have those five things, then effectively you're
32:58
gonna get to trouble 'cause your cops are gonna be out of control.
33:02
But why is so important related to quality
33:05
of life, and let me close with this, the idea is that they're
33:09
trying to put the two together.
33:11
Uh, but you c- the essentiality is what do people
33:13
want you to deal with?
33:15
The broken windows.
33:17
How do you deal with that?
33:18
With stop, question, and frisk.
33:20
You see something happening, somebody's reporting something
33:23
happening, or your police training indicates that
33:26
something is going to happen.
33:27
And so we're in a, um, a very interesting debate nationally
33:32
at the moment, and something that I'm, I'm basically, I
33:34
get up on my high horse and my pedestal and aggressively push
33:39
back, uh, against those that are trying to commingle the
33:42
two together in a negative way.
33:45
Dennis Collins: Interesting
33:45
Craig Floyd: And I, I think one of the things that, um, that
33:48
the, uh, critics would say is that somehow this policy is,
33:53
um, biased against minorities.
33:55
And I just wanna throw in a statistic that I often cite,
33:59
uh, that the Department of Justice tracks the number
34:02
of police-initiated stops.
34:05
All right?
34:06
Uh, that's traffic stops, that's pedestrian stops,
34:08
stop, uh, question and frisk, as you point out.
34:12
And, and it turns out that 12% of the adult white population
34:17
are stopped every year by police, 11% of the Black population, and
34:22
10% of the Hispanic population.
34:25
The bottom line is there is no statistical difference
34:28
when it comes to policing, uh, in terms of stopping people.
34:33
And, uh, I, I, I have to use that statistic to just counter
34:36
everyone that tries to, uh, say that police are somehow
34:40
racist, that they're targeting Blacks, targeting Hispanics.
34:44
It's not the case at all when you look at the hard data.
34:48
So, uh, a very important-
34:49
Bill Bratton: One caveat with that though, uh, Craig, and you
34:52
can appreciate this, all your-
34:53
Craig Floyd: Yeah
34:54
Bill Bratton: dealing with policing.
34:55
Uh, the unfortunate reality is that the majority of serious crime
35:00
in this country, uh, the majority of disorderly behavior, when I
35:05
talk about the street conditions of prostitutions, gaming, drug
35:09
dealing, uh, unfortunately happens in minority communities.
35:14
Um, and particularly poor minority communities, which
35:17
then police leaders. That's where you assign your personnel.
35:22
You basically, like a doctor, a doctor, if you're suffering
35:24
from cancer, is gonna treat where the cancer's occurring.
35:28
He's not gonna put the radiation and the chemo on
35:30
another part of your body.
35:32
And so we effectively, uh, t-taking large proportions
35:36
of our police personnel and moving them into those, uh,
35:41
neighborhoods, if you will, uh, to deal with disorder.
35:45
So that creates a much more confrontational, uh,
35:49
uh, experience, and that's where the training comes
35:52
in, that you have to police constitutionally, legally.
35:55
You have to p-police compassionately.
35:57
You're dealing with people.
35:58
And you have to police consistently.
36:00
You can't police differently in a Black neighborhood than a
36:03
white neighborhood in the sense of, um, uh, how you go about it,
36:07
You say, like a doctor, to, uh, uh, not, uh, uh,
36:11
use more medicine than necessary.
36:13
Police not to use more force.
36:14
But no, that statistic you cited is something that should be cited
36:18
more frequently, but is not, and oftentimes the loudest voice gets
36:23
the attention, and so many of the loudest voices come from that,
36:26
uh, uh, minority community that does feel oppressed by the police.
36:30
Dennis Collins: Interesting.
36:31
Craig Floyd: And let's fast-forward to, uh, 2020,
36:34
all right, when George Floyd died, the defund and defame the
36:37
police movement was launched.
36:39
Um, we seem to have come full circle.
36:42
We, we went from dramatic declines in crime, uh, in the
36:47
late '90s as a result of, uh, broken windows, and what you
36:50
did in New York City was, uh, remarkable to say the least.
36:54
Um, and, and all of a sudden in 2020 with the defund movement,
36:59
everybody seemed to go the opposite way, all right?
37:03
Crime, some even serious, were not getting prosecuted.
37:07
Um, and everybody was targeting police with, uh, anti-police
37:11
rhetoric and, and literal attacks against law enforcement.
37:15
Um, uh, w- what happened?
37:17
I mean, how, how can we go so crazy from the success of the
37:22
broken windows philosophy, um, and you can't deny the, the data
37:26
you just cited, uh, to 2020 where all of a sudden, uh, criminals
37:31
could, you know, have carte blanche in their communities and
37:34
prey on, uh, the innocent, uh, with little or no consequences?
37:39
Uh, please comment on the dangers of the defund movement
37:43
and the disaster it caused
37:45
Bill Bratton: The d- defund movement was one of the
37:48
stupidest movements that was ever precipitated and inflicted
37:52
upon American policing.
37:54
It effectively, the death of George Floyd, which was the
37:57
catalyst, uh, the behavior of that officer and his misguided
38:02
supervision of the other four or five officers he got jammed up
38:05
with him- with him, set American policing in terms of the progress
38:09
we had made since the Rodney King event in the 1990s, it set
38:15
us back 20 years in terms of the whole progress we had made
38:18
with community policing, uh, the 100,000 more cops in the
38:23
'90s, the crime turnaround, and that coupled with some of the,
38:27
uh, uh, lingering tensions from Ferguson a few years before.
38:31
Uh, and also just the change in the population.
38:35
When you look at the sheer number of young people, particularly
38:38
young white people who got involved in the post-George
38:42
Floyd demonstrations, which were much more negative than a
38:46
lot of people fully appreciate.
38:48
In my city, New York City, they were very problematic,
38:51
but that was kind of glossed over, uh, in many respects
38:55
even by the media about how significant in Los Angeles the
38:58
violence, the damage was, uh, the assaults upon the police.
39:02
And it set us back.
39:03
The, the… I often talk about the expression cops count,
39:06
police matter, how the, the individual actions of one cop
39:11
can change the whole profession, and that's the case with
39:14
the George Floyd instance.
39:16
Right.
39:16
And the idea of police matter, the collective actions of police
39:20
can change the relationship with the larger community.
39:24
And so coming out of George Floyd, it was a phenomenal flip-flop.
39:29
I couldn't… When I looked at those crowds, I'm saying,
39:31
"What has the police done that has gotten all these
39:34
young white kids so angry, uh, that they're out there
39:38
demonstrating against the police?
39:40
What, what, what's that all about?" And part of that is
39:43
the influence of social media, uh, in terms of some of the
39:46
educational processes that are underway in some of, uh, elite
39:49
colleges, for example. In any event, uh, defund the police
39:54
movement because it was so stupid, you see even now in 2026 where
40:01
some of the people who were the staunchest advocates, creators
40:04
of it, uh, AOC, the congresswoman from New York, uh, re- recently
40:09
they're kind of retreating from it as they go forward into
40:13
the election cycle of 2026.
40:15
There's a recognition that, uh, uh, it, it wasn't such
40:19
a good idea because what has the impact been on policing?
40:23
A huge reduction in cop numbers in the country.
40:28
Cops who left early, who didn't want to be- Yeah … in policing
40:32
because of all the pressures and tension and disrespect, as
40:35
well as the inability to recruit from generations X, Y, and Z.
40:40
'Cause unlike the image of policing in the '50s and '60s that
40:43
I talked about earlier of Dragnet, One Adam-12, we now, uh, we now
40:48
have the image that was presented by the George Floyd murder and the
40:53
Defund the Police movement so that this younger generation didn't
40:56
grow up like I did with this sense of police as guardians, but
41:01
rather saw police as oppressors, so they didn't wanna be, they
41:04
didn't wanna be oppressors.
41:06
Paul Boomer: You've been listening to Commissioner Bill Bratton
41:08
on Heroes Behind the Badge.
41:09
In part two, the three words he calls the highest compliment
41:12
of 50 years in policing, higher than any medal he was given,
41:16
and a night in 1994 that has stayed with him ever since.
41:20
That's part two.
41:21
Subscribe so you don't miss it.