Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / The Holy Spirit and Discipleship: Growth Isn't Just Human Effort (Roger Ross)

Transcript

The Holy Spirit and Discipleship: Growth Isn't Just Human Effort (Roger Ross) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

0:01
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
0:04
Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
0:08
Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
0:11
Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
0:15
Speaker 1: Christian highlights the way God is working in the world
0:18
Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
0:22
Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
0:25
Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
0:29
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm joined today by Roger Ross.
0:33
Speaker 1: He's the author of a new book called Kind of Christian.
0:36
Speaker 1: From Curious to Serious About Jesus. He also does a
0:39
Speaker 1: lot with consulting with pastors and churches, and he's here
0:44
Speaker 1: today to talk about what it looks like to go
0:46
Speaker 1: from curious to serious about Jesus. So, Roger, welcome to
0:49
Speaker 1: the program. It's good to have you.
0:51
Speaker 2: Thank you, James. It's my pleasure.
0:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, So tell us just a little bit. This book
0:57
Speaker 1: obviously comes from somewhere. I'm always interested in where why
1:00
Speaker 1: authors write what they write. What prompted this in your
1:04
Speaker 1: life and your ministry that you saw this book as
1:07
Speaker 1: being necessary for the church.
1:09
Speaker 2: Well, for most of my life I was a real pastor,
1:12
Speaker 2: serving churches in a variety of places. But more recently
1:17
Speaker 2: I'm serving now as a coaching consultant, and I spent
1:19
Speaker 2: a lot of time talking with pastors and adjunct class
1:24
Speaker 2: in a seminary. So I talked with people that are
1:26
Speaker 2: on their way to becoming pastors, and we would often
1:28
Speaker 2: get into these conversations about discipleship. They say, you know,
1:33
Speaker 2: church membership is just cutting it. What does it mean
1:35
Speaker 2: to be a disciple? And I would tell them about
1:37
Speaker 2: what we had experienced in the last church I served,
1:40
Speaker 2: which is in Stringfield, Illinois. I realized we kept having
1:44
Speaker 2: people showing up and asking questions about our mission. We
1:47
Speaker 2: talk about our mission in our worship services and small
1:50
Speaker 2: groups and like, you know, to make disciples of Jesus
1:52
Speaker 2: Christ for the trend. And people would say over and
1:57
Speaker 2: over again, newcomers, I really like that whole time transformation
2:00
Speaker 2: of the world thing, But what's the disciple? And we're like, well,
2:06
Speaker 2: everybody knows who the disciple is. You know a little
2:08
Speaker 2: of this, So it's a little of that, you know,
2:11
Speaker 2: on what we see one and you know this happened
2:14
Speaker 2: so many times it got embarrassing because we realized we
2:17
Speaker 2: didn't even have a good answer. So final that I
2:20
Speaker 2: got the other passions together and said, look, we can't
2:22
Speaker 2: keep getting this. This is ridiculous. We have to call it.
2:25
Speaker 2: So this is very good question. So I said, how
2:29
Speaker 2: hard could this be? Let's just you know, spend three
2:31
Speaker 2: weeks and knock it out. Eight months later, we finally
2:35
Speaker 2: had an answer that we could bring to our leaders
2:39
Speaker 2: and have them wrestle with it as well, because we
2:43
Speaker 2: had to spend some time just going into our bets
2:45
Speaker 2: and searching the scriptures and coming up with a decent
2:48
Speaker 2: answer that really helped people to get the arms around
2:52
Speaker 2: what is a disciple? And by the time we've finally
2:57
Speaker 2: got that leadership and the like we that became our
3:01
Speaker 2: discipleship process. I mean, we didn't have not only a
3:05
Speaker 2: definition of disciple, where did we have a discipleship process
3:11
Speaker 2: one to become one. So it was it was kind
3:14
Speaker 2: of a painful experience really to go through that to
3:17
Speaker 2: realize we weren't administering to people in a way that
3:21
Speaker 2: would help newcomers, newcomers not just to the church, newcomers
3:25
Speaker 2: to the faith, people that were spiritually curious on the
3:29
Speaker 2: outside looking in find a way to actually make a
3:33
Speaker 2: deep connection.
3:36
Speaker 1: So when you think about discipleship, we've talked about discipleship
3:40
Speaker 1: number of times on the show, just interested to see
3:43
Speaker 1: what you guys came up with.
3:44
Speaker 3: What is discipleship?
3:45
Speaker 1: How did you how did you define it, how did
3:47
Speaker 1: you think about it, and what did some of that
3:49
Speaker 1: process entail. You don't have to give away all the
3:51
Speaker 1: secret sauce necessarily, but you know, give us a sense
3:55
Speaker 1: of where you guys landed.
3:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, we we kind of looked at globally what does
4:01
Speaker 2: disciple look like? And we thought, you know, really Jesus
4:05
Speaker 2: talks about loving God, so perhaps that would be you know,
4:10
Speaker 2: to launch community, to find ways to connect with others,
4:15
Speaker 2: and then also to unleash compassions. So those were the
4:18
Speaker 2: three broad areas that we talked about. And the more
4:22
Speaker 2: that we looked at that, the more we realized, you know,
4:26
Speaker 2: there's some deeper marks of a disciple that really kind
4:31
Speaker 2: of described in a more specific and way what a
4:36
Speaker 2: disciples should look like. And they kind of coalesced around
4:40
Speaker 2: a bunch of G words, and eventually we came up
4:43
Speaker 2: with six g's sorry, So they became our G six
4:46
Speaker 2: networks and here are the g's glory, Grace, group, growth, giftedness,
4:56
Speaker 2: and generosity. And we felt that that those g if
5:01
Speaker 2: if they had both an inward experience to get an
5:04
Speaker 2: outward expression, would be a great example of what a
5:08
Speaker 2: fully orbed disciple, what we called a deeply devoted disciple,
5:13
Speaker 2: would look like. Now we also want to come up
5:15
Speaker 2: with a sentence like just the one sentence definition. You know,
5:20
Speaker 2: I love the definition of discipleship that Dallas Willard came
5:25
Speaker 2: up with sometime ago. He says, you know, discipleship is
5:27
Speaker 2: the process of becoming who Jesus would be if he
5:31
Speaker 2: were you.
5:33
Speaker 3: I think that's great, But yeah.
5:36
Speaker 2: That's about discipleship. We wanted to talk about, well, what
5:38
Speaker 2: is a disciple? And this may not be the best
5:42
Speaker 2: definition of the world, it was one that worked for us.
5:46
Speaker 2: A disciple is someone who loves Jesus above all else
5:51
Speaker 2: and loves the world as Jesus does. And if you
5:55
Speaker 2: could get something in a one sentence in capsule, it
6:00
Speaker 2: can help people have a true north. They keep heading in.
6:03
Speaker 1: That on the sixth marks you mentioned, the first one
6:08
Speaker 1: was glory. Dive a little bit deeper into that one.
6:11
Speaker 1: What is glory when you when you think about what
6:13
Speaker 1: does that one mean?
6:15
Speaker 2: Right, glory, that's a great question. Glory is really all
6:18
Speaker 2: about how you encounter God when we when we enter
6:23
Speaker 2: into God's presence, we encounter the fullness of who God is.
6:27
Speaker 2: And you know, glory is. I didn't really realize this
6:31
Speaker 2: until I got more into writing this book, how important
6:35
Speaker 2: glory is in the scriptures. I mean, it's just mentioned
6:39
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of times throughout the Strictures. When you
6:42
Speaker 2: start paying more attention to the word glory, you start
6:45
Speaker 2: seeing it talking all over the place. And so it's
6:48
Speaker 2: the way in which we actually experience God in a
6:53
Speaker 2: visceral way, you know, it's it's it's when we come
6:56
Speaker 2: into the press. Whenever we sense the presents of God,
7:00
Speaker 2: we're uncounting the God and that's what really changes us
7:04
Speaker 2: from the inside out. You know. It's good to think
7:08
Speaker 2: the right way about things, and I love this podcast
7:11
Speaker 2: the whole concept thinking Christian. But in addition to thinking Christian,
7:17
Speaker 2: we need to experience what it's like to be in
7:20
Speaker 2: God's presence, which transforms our very being from the inside out.
7:24
Speaker 2: That's what glory is designed to be. So I use
7:30
Speaker 2: a few different ways daily solitude, Like for instance, today
7:35
Speaker 2: I spent half an hour or so just in quiet,
7:40
Speaker 2: meditative prayer along with God, so that the presence of
7:43
Speaker 2: God could seep into my otherwise very distracted life. Yeah,
7:49
Speaker 2: and then ongoing conversation, like just an ongoing conversation with
7:53
Speaker 2: God through the day. You know, Brother Lawrence talked about
7:56
Speaker 2: this and is a book the practice of the Presence
7:59
Speaker 2: of God and just developing that inner chapel of the
8:03
Speaker 2: heart where at any time of the day or even
8:07
Speaker 2: night you could go into your own chapel and carry
8:11
Speaker 2: on that conversation with God. And then lastly there just
8:15
Speaker 2: be a daily review. This is something that comes from
8:20
Speaker 2: Ignacious of Iola who put together that examine where you
8:26
Speaker 2: spend a few minutes every day just examining where is
8:28
Speaker 2: it that God has been present and active in my life?
8:31
Speaker 2: Where can I identify the love, faith and hope that's
8:38
Speaker 2: coming into my life and bringing me versus those times
8:43
Speaker 2: when I feel like God is nowhere and there's a
8:47
Speaker 2: sense of desolation and I've drawn away from the presence.
8:52
Speaker 2: Spending a little bit of time every day just reviewing
8:55
Speaker 2: your day of watching the game tape, so to seek
8:57
Speaker 2: so that you can sense where God was drawing closer
9:01
Speaker 2: and you felt like God was further away from you.
9:05
Speaker 2: I can tell you a lot about how you're experiencing
9:09
Speaker 2: or having a lack of experience of the glory of God.
9:15
Speaker 1: As you see people do this, and maybe as you
9:17
Speaker 1: do it yourself. But also I would think, you know,
9:19
Speaker 1: as you watch people kind of go through this process
9:21
Speaker 1: and they're trying to cultivate this understanding of an encounter
9:25
Speaker 1: with God in their daily life, how do they you know,
9:29
Speaker 1: how are we oftentimes I'll call it, I'll use the
9:33
Speaker 1: phrase God as a sociological actor. In other words, he's
9:36
Speaker 1: involved in our lives on a social level. Every day
9:39
Speaker 1: we're encountering him. We need to be recognizing him as
9:42
Speaker 1: the most infinitely relevant actor and factor that will ever encounter.
9:49
Speaker 1: And so how do you see just everyday folks who
9:53
Speaker 1: are practicing these disciplines start to understand and sense God's presence,
9:58
Speaker 1: be able to identify God's presence. It's more acutely as
10:01
Speaker 1: they go forward, not just looking back, which I think
10:05
Speaker 1: is a great exercise, but also just in that do
10:08
Speaker 1: they start to develop almost like a I don't know,
10:12
Speaker 1: an exercise. We call it a kinesthesis, right, like, you know,
10:16
Speaker 1: you you get a certain rhythm and a sense of
10:20
Speaker 1: where the other players are on the court when you're
10:22
Speaker 1: you know, when you're on a team playing basketball or
10:24
Speaker 1: on a team playing football, and it's almost just sort
10:28
Speaker 1: of supernatural. Do you see people developing that sort of
10:32
Speaker 1: relationship with God where they now sense him where He
10:35
Speaker 1: actually is in their lives on a day to day
10:37
Speaker 1: basis going forward.
10:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's precisely the kind of have over time, the
10:44
Speaker 2: practice these disciplines in a regular way over time for
10:49
Speaker 2: that to take place, and you don't you don't have
10:53
Speaker 2: that kind of relational connection with your teammates in a
10:57
Speaker 2: basketball teamball team after the practice idea, you have to
11:01
Speaker 2: go through much of a season, maybe more than one season,
11:05
Speaker 2: before you actually have that kind of deep connection with
11:08
Speaker 2: others and are aware of people without even paying attention
11:12
Speaker 2: to And that happens. I find that happens in the same
11:18
Speaker 2: people's lives. Are happening more in my life as I
11:23
Speaker 2: just practice the disciplines. You know, when you practice them
11:27
Speaker 2: validating you see why Christians for centuries have done these
11:32
Speaker 2: kinds of things, because they do bring you more into
11:36
Speaker 2: the business of God and they increase your conscious awareness
11:39
Speaker 2: of God. I mean, so much of spirituality is simply
11:45
Speaker 2: you know, turn off the switch annoyingly, so much of
11:49
Speaker 2: our lives and you know, so we'll we'll do our devotions.
11:52
Speaker 2: I usually have those experiences about all time I do
11:55
Speaker 2: my devotions. In the morning, I might spend part Christs
11:59
Speaker 2: and then I would to be so immersed in all
12:01
Speaker 2: the stuff they needed to happen with regard to ministry
12:05
Speaker 2: over the course of the day. At the end of
12:07
Speaker 2: the day, I wondered if I was still Christian like
12:10
Speaker 2: I like Loft Track that in the midst of all
12:13
Speaker 2: that I got so attached to the things of ministry,
12:17
Speaker 2: whatever they were, that I had stop paying attention being
12:21
Speaker 2: aware of the presence of God. So I actually changed
12:27
Speaker 2: the way that out things much later in my life
12:32
Speaker 2: and ministry by asking a different question at the end
12:35
Speaker 2: of the day. I know that my s gott that
12:37
Speaker 2: you have was all about it. I loved that podcast
12:43
Speaker 2: by the ways before we did on. But yeah, that
12:49
Speaker 2: I used to ask myself inadvertently when I got on
12:53
Speaker 2: the brain is what do I have to do? And
12:56
Speaker 2: I knew I was asking myself the question because uh
12:59
Speaker 2: it as I was standing from the bathroom mirror getting
13:03
Speaker 2: ready to like, I just started having these things pop
13:07
Speaker 2: up on my life. I got to call that person,
13:10
Speaker 2: I got to take care of preparing for this meeting,
13:13
Speaker 2: and all that stuff was coming up, and I kept realizing,
13:18
Speaker 2: you know, I don't even remember ask any question, but
13:20
Speaker 2: all these things got and that was the unspoken question
13:24
Speaker 2: in my head. Well guess what when I realized that
13:30
Speaker 2: all those things basically just had to do with work
13:34
Speaker 2: and that was my job, it really didn't. I was
13:38
Speaker 2: spiritualizing it and said, well, let's has to do with church. Well,
13:41
Speaker 2: actually that's just my work, you know. Is there's something
13:44
Speaker 2: else that maybe I should be doing as I'm going
13:47
Speaker 2: to do with my relationship with God? Yeah, So I
13:51
Speaker 2: changed the question. Instead of saying what do I have
13:54
Speaker 2: to do today? My question is now what do I
13:56
Speaker 2: have to do to live in the presence of God today?
14:01
Speaker 2: That that question gets a lot different answers than just
14:06
Speaker 2: fam I need to send.
14:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's a really
14:16
Speaker 1: good reframing.
14:17
Speaker 3: I appreciate that question.
14:19
Speaker 1: I think the as I've talked to people over the years,
14:22
Speaker 1: the pushback I always get when I say something similar
14:24
Speaker 1: to that right, you know, how do we make decisions
14:26
Speaker 1: so that only God gets the glory?
14:28
Speaker 3: Right?
14:29
Speaker 1: How do we how do we go about our daily
14:31
Speaker 1: lives so that God is We recognize God's active presence
14:36
Speaker 1: and are prompted to move as He moves. What you
14:41
Speaker 1: what I think people are afraid is going to happen
14:43
Speaker 1: is that you essentially get nothing done. Right, You've become
14:47
Speaker 1: some sort of contemplative monk uh and and you're you're
14:51
Speaker 1: not actually anymore able to lead an organization. I think
14:56
Speaker 1: even in my work with organizations and pastors over the years,
15:00
Speaker 1: and you start talking like this, they start saying, yeah,
15:02
Speaker 1: but the work still has to get done, and so
15:05
Speaker 1: how do you how do you help people.
15:07
Speaker 3: Think through that aspect of this?
15:09
Speaker 1: How do you how do you help them understand that
15:11
Speaker 1: the work is still going to get done, that you're
15:13
Speaker 1: not abandoning the work. What you're really doing is reframing
15:18
Speaker 1: maybe what the work does or how they should approach
15:21
Speaker 1: the work that they're doing.
15:23
Speaker 2: So that's a wonderful way to talk about it, reframing
15:27
Speaker 2: the way in which the work it's done. But I
15:30
Speaker 2: want to talk about it another way of thinking about
15:32
Speaker 2: it as well. If you ever run across Thomas Telly's
15:36
Speaker 2: classic book, Testament of Devotion. It's a short little book,
15:42
Speaker 2: but you know that I've read this many many years ago.
15:45
Speaker 2: It's just because he talked about essentially living life on
15:50
Speaker 2: two levels things. One level is where we're doing all
15:55
Speaker 2: the stuff that we have to do, the tasks and
15:58
Speaker 2: the area made ones in, the phone calls and that
16:01
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. It's just the look. But the other
16:04
Speaker 2: level is a level of worship and devotion, which is
16:09
Speaker 2: of your part. I'm going to go that you can
16:13
Speaker 2: continue to be in a place of worship and federation
16:19
Speaker 2: while you're doing all these kinds of activities that are
16:22
Speaker 2: more on the service simultaneously. You don't have to do
16:26
Speaker 2: one for the other. That was freeing concept to me.
16:33
Speaker 2: I've never heard anyone talk about that previously, and so
16:35
Speaker 2: that's what I've been If I can't say I'm a
16:38
Speaker 2: master of this, I've been experimenting with for thirty years
16:44
Speaker 2: so that my life would be more an example of
16:48
Speaker 2: someone who's living in the presence of God who also
16:51
Speaker 2: happens to be doing a lot of stuff.
16:54
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, okay, Well let me circle back around to
17:00
Speaker 1: the six marks, because I'm kind of interested in how
17:03
Speaker 1: you guys think about pulling all these together.
17:05
Speaker 3: It gets tempting.
17:06
Speaker 1: After I hear you describe glory and you list it first,
17:09
Speaker 1: I think that's probably intentional. Right, Glory is a really
17:13
Speaker 1: sort of an all encompassing concept in a lot of ways.
17:16
Speaker 3: How do you think of the six marks together?
17:20
Speaker 1: So we often hear a lot of times you know
17:23
Speaker 1: there's this importance of community and relational experiences that we
17:27
Speaker 1: get in discipleship, and I agree, I think that's really crucial.
17:31
Speaker 1: But I oftentimes what I sort of see happening in
17:36
Speaker 1: different Christian communities is we're going to focus on the
17:38
Speaker 1: community aspect and the group aspect and relational aspect, but
17:42
Speaker 1: we're going to make that less theological than really it
17:44
Speaker 1: could be. Right, We're not going to draw God into
17:47
Speaker 1: these experiences in the way that we could. We're going
17:50
Speaker 1: to get together and watch football, maybe talk about Jesus occasionally,
17:52
Speaker 1: but really we're just getting together in form and relationships.
17:56
Speaker 1: And so when I think about those different g's that
17:58
Speaker 1: you listed, the you had the group I think which
18:01
Speaker 1: would probably connect into the community aspect. How do you
18:05
Speaker 1: how do you coach people? How do you think about
18:08
Speaker 1: keeping all of these together intention not necessarily as a hierarchy.
18:12
Speaker 1: First start with Glory, then go to Grace, then go
18:14
Speaker 1: you know, but sort of as a whole big ball
18:18
Speaker 1: of g's that you're you're sort of practicing all together.
18:24
Speaker 2: That's a wonderful question, and that's one of the things
18:27
Speaker 2: that was difficult in writing them. When you fight anything,
18:31
Speaker 2: you have to do it in a linear faction.
18:33
Speaker 3: That's right.
18:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is not a linear deal. I mean,
18:38
Speaker 2: someone they gave me the metaphor, and I just really
18:42
Speaker 2: originated with thistticulum. It's more like the ingredients of a
18:46
Speaker 2: cap those six with them in at different times and
18:50
Speaker 2: in different measures to some extent, But you need all
18:54
Speaker 2: the ingredients to be able to come up with a
18:56
Speaker 2: cake that actually really tastes it, gotcha. So Glory did
19:01
Speaker 2: come first for some of the reasons that you mentioned
19:04
Speaker 2: and some of the things that I spoke about as well.
19:07
Speaker 2: But uh, you need all six of them. Yeah, there's
19:12
Speaker 2: an option gee. And the ways in which you're going
19:16
Speaker 2: to insert those yees into your life or incorporate them
19:21
Speaker 2: into your life will be different for different people, and
19:24
Speaker 2: they'll they'll come at different times in different fashions. But
19:28
Speaker 2: they still need to come something. Yeah, so it's hard.
19:33
Speaker 2: I think you can come. There is some connection between them.
19:38
Speaker 2: Uh glory when you have an encounter the presence of
19:44
Speaker 2: m hmm. Generally speaking, that's going to be your first
19:49
Speaker 2: taste of grace. Yeah, you're can have some what it
19:54
Speaker 2: means to be loved by God and condition. That's a
19:57
Speaker 2: powerful thing. And then course great is just like Laurie,
20:01
Speaker 2: I mean, you want to the experience, but you want
20:03
Speaker 2: to live outwardly express it. Yeah. So for both of
20:09
Speaker 2: us that we want to early experience the grace that
20:13
Speaker 2: he offers us to forgiveness of our sense, the freedom
20:17
Speaker 2: from sin and new life that he offers, we want
20:19
Speaker 2: to exchange that for that other people. That's the way
20:25
Speaker 2: it's designed to it. Yeah, same same is true with
20:28
Speaker 2: the group. I mean, we want to find ourselves in
20:30
Speaker 2: the community, we want to belong, but we also want
20:34
Speaker 2: to offer that, I mean to other people.
20:37
Speaker 1: So yeah, I could almost see group. I would say,
20:43
Speaker 1: maybe the way I've thought about it up to this
20:45
Speaker 1: point in my life, group and giftedness and even group
20:48
Speaker 1: giftedness and generosity seem very naturally together. Right if you
20:53
Speaker 1: had group, but you didn't have a sense of giftedness
20:56
Speaker 1: and you didn't have any generosity. You start to lose now, hospitality,
21:01
Speaker 1: you start to lose sort of coordination that happens within
21:04
Speaker 1: the Body of Christ amongst the members, right, and you
21:07
Speaker 1: just have sort of a blob of people together.
21:10
Speaker 3: You know.
21:11
Speaker 1: It's not like we're not going to a concert or
21:13
Speaker 1: a Body of Christ. And so the group is it
21:16
Speaker 1: almost requires that level of coordination and giftedness.
21:19
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, actually, what do we grow? I mean
21:25
Speaker 2: most of the time we grow in relationship with other people.
21:29
Speaker 2: We're learning from other people, you know, we're doing the
21:32
Speaker 2: iron sharpens iron thing. I mean, growth happens in the
21:36
Speaker 2: context of root. That's why I actually but with regard
21:39
Speaker 2: to an order, that's why I put group before growth. Yeah,
21:44
Speaker 2: because growth kind of all out by yourself, you know,
21:48
Speaker 2: with a book and alone with God. It's not that
21:52
Speaker 2: there isn't a dimension to that. But we all the
21:55
Speaker 2: things that we know are things that we know because
21:58
Speaker 2: other people have taught us. Yeah, it's a group community experience.
22:03
Speaker 3: Yeah.
22:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you think about all those where does
22:12
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit kind of come in? Obviously I'd see
22:15
Speaker 1: how the Holy Spirit could come in a number of
22:16
Speaker 1: different ways, you know, giftedness, grace, glory, and particularly growth.
22:23
Speaker 1: But how do you infuse that process of discipleship.
22:26
Speaker 3: With the Holy Spirit.
22:27
Speaker 1: You know, as you see people going through these transformative changes,
22:31
Speaker 1: what sense do they have that of the Holy Spirit's
22:34
Speaker 1: presence within them? And even the Holy spirits work within
22:37
Speaker 1: them and among them.
22:38
Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is the prime mover in the entire
22:41
Speaker 2: work of discipleship. So whatever g you're working on doesn't
22:45
Speaker 2: really matter. The Holy is the one that's helping it
22:49
Speaker 2: all to take place on a deeper level. If it's
22:52
Speaker 2: just a matter of human effort, then we've missed the
22:56
Speaker 2: entire boats. That's not the way that God works in
22:58
Speaker 2: our lives. So with each of the g's, let me
23:02
Speaker 2: give an example with say growth. With growth, the Holy
23:08
Speaker 2: Spirit is minds and open our hearts to the things
23:14
Speaker 2: that God wants to teach us. Now those things may
23:16
Speaker 2: come from a book, it may come from a worship
23:20
Speaker 2: that may come teaching, or it may come from relationships
23:25
Speaker 2: that we have and experiences that we're going through that
23:29
Speaker 2: could be difficult or painful experiences. God can use all
23:33
Speaker 2: of those things and lots more to work with the
23:37
Speaker 2: Holy Spirit reveal things to us that we hadn't seen
23:41
Speaker 2: previously and therefore kind of teach us through the sometimes
23:49
Speaker 2: the hard knocks of life and sometimes to life. It
23:53
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what's happening to us. The Holy Spirit can
23:56
Speaker 2: use whatever this particular incident is to be a teaching
24:00
Speaker 2: point for us. This happens to me more frankly where
24:06
Speaker 2: i'll i'll be so much and all that was for me,
24:13
Speaker 2: Like I'm sure other people are picking up here, but
24:16
Speaker 2: that part that was for me. I need to pay attention.
24:20
Speaker 2: The Holy Spirit is teaching me about something that I
24:23
Speaker 2: need to pay in my life. Yeah, that's an example
24:27
Speaker 2: the way the Holy Spirit works in each of the
24:29
Speaker 2: g's and all the different parts of all life.
24:32
Speaker 1: So all this sort of, I guess, gets down into
24:36
Speaker 1: sort of.
24:36
Speaker 3: The brass tacks, how does it work? Sort of feel right?
24:43
Speaker 1: And so when we talk about the Holy Spirit and
24:45
Speaker 1: we talk about sort of yielding the Holy Spirit, we
24:47
Speaker 1: talk about the Holy Spirit as sort of pushing us
24:50
Speaker 1: into discipleship in some way, shape or form, guiding us
24:53
Speaker 1: into discipleship in some way, shape or form. How do
24:56
Speaker 1: you help someone sort of start to unwind.
25:02
Speaker 3: What we might call.
25:02
Speaker 1: Cultural scripts to say, if I want to grow. I
25:06
Speaker 1: have to help myself if I want to make things
25:10
Speaker 1: happen in my life. These are things now I have
25:13
Speaker 1: to engage in and I have to make happen, versus
25:16
Speaker 1: what we often see in scripture, which is no, God's
25:21
Speaker 1: really just asking you to come along for the ride,
25:23
Speaker 1: to be faithful to him in a moment, and you're
25:26
Speaker 1: never really sure what opportunities discipleship is really going to
25:30
Speaker 1: open up for you to help you build the Kingdom
25:33
Speaker 1: of God. In other words, the way I've often thought
25:36
Speaker 1: of this is, if I have my agenda, discipleship could
25:40
Speaker 1: certainly get in the way of my agenda. But if
25:44
Speaker 1: I don't have my agenda, or if my agenda is
25:46
Speaker 1: really aligned with hey, let's build the Kingdom of God today, now,
25:51
Speaker 1: discipleship is always aligned with my agenda. And so how
25:54
Speaker 1: do you help people sort of prepare themselves to I'll
26:01
Speaker 1: use this phrase, how do you help people prepare to
26:03
Speaker 1: lose something that they may really want as they're engaging
26:08
Speaker 1: in discipleship and make the trade of Look, what you
26:11
Speaker 1: really wanted, wasn't that great? What you're being given is amazing,
26:17
Speaker 1: And so how do you help people make that leap?
26:20
Speaker 1: What does that transformation sort of look like for people
26:22
Speaker 1: as they go through this process.
26:25
Speaker 2: So I really do think that is an issue that
26:29
Speaker 2: many of us struggle with. We want to make it
26:31
Speaker 2: happen rather than let it come. I mean, I'm gonna
26:35
Speaker 2: make it happen. I have to fight against that tendency
26:40
Speaker 2: in myself all the time because there's only a number
26:44
Speaker 2: of where that actually is helpful and cases it works
26:49
Speaker 2: against you, right, and certainly that's the case in the
26:51
Speaker 2: spiritual life. I can't make it happen with them, right,
26:57
Speaker 2: there are things that I can do to put myself
26:59
Speaker 2: in the right position to be able to receive what
27:01
Speaker 2: God wants to give to me. Make God do anything.
27:04
Speaker 2: God is free the bedrock fundamental beliefs of the Christian
27:11
Speaker 2: faith that God is free and able to act freely
27:16
Speaker 2: at any time in an moment. And that's the case
27:21
Speaker 2: only but in the world, in groups of people and cultures,
27:26
Speaker 2: you name it. So how is it that we make
27:30
Speaker 2: ourselves available to God's choice to love us? Well, that's
27:38
Speaker 2: the gift disciplines, right, the spiritual practices. Spiritual practices, when
27:44
Speaker 2: we engage in them, are not designed to get God
27:47
Speaker 2: to do something for us, but rather to put us
27:51
Speaker 2: in a place where we are open and ready to
27:53
Speaker 2: receive what wants to do. It's a very different approach.
27:59
Speaker 2: I mean, it's truly the flip side of make it come.
28:03
Speaker 2: It is. Okay, Lord, here I in a position I
28:06
Speaker 2: invite you to let come as I practice this discipline,
28:11
Speaker 2: as I engage in this spiritual practice. I'm going to
28:16
Speaker 2: put myself in a position where I perceptive, ready, willing,
28:21
Speaker 2: surrendered for you to do the kinds of things that
28:25
Speaker 2: you have desired to do for your purposes, for your glory,
28:29
Speaker 2: not for mine. Now you want to do what's best
28:33
Speaker 2: for me. I believe I trust you for that. But
28:37
Speaker 2: what I think is best for me and what you
28:39
Speaker 2: think is best for me aren't always the same. And
28:44
Speaker 2: putting myself in a place of surrender allows me to
28:46
Speaker 2: be able to receive your good gifts, even if I
28:50
Speaker 2: don't recognize them immediately as good.
28:57
Speaker 3: Yeah.
29:01
Speaker 1: Do you find that people who are walking in though,
29:05
Speaker 1: who are curious right about Jesus And you're saying, okay,
29:11
Speaker 1: let's get serious about Jesus. There's a book I read.
29:18
Speaker 1: It's by La Paul and she talks about these transformative
29:20
Speaker 1: experiences and basically what she argues, is that there are
29:23
Speaker 1: certain things that you can only know once you've experienced them.
29:27
Speaker 1: She actually uses the example of a vampire. Let's say
29:30
Speaker 1: add friends who are vampires and they explain what it's
29:33
Speaker 1: like to be a vampire, and they're telling you all
29:35
Speaker 1: about it. Her argument is, but you don't really know
29:39
Speaker 1: until you actually let them turn you into a vampire.
29:42
Speaker 3: You have no idea what it's like to be a vampire.
29:45
Speaker 3: You can only have a sense of it.
29:47
Speaker 1: And my gut is that people who are curious about
29:52
Speaker 1: Jesus only have a sense of what it looks like
29:56
Speaker 1: actually follow him until they start to do it. Like
29:59
Speaker 1: this is not a you dip your toe in the
30:01
Speaker 1: water and sort of yeah, I kind of get a
30:04
Speaker 1: feel for it, and I'll decide whether I want to
30:06
Speaker 1: do it or not. You're either all in or you're
30:07
Speaker 1: all out. Is that a how do you get people
30:11
Speaker 1: who are curious about Jesus to get to that point
30:14
Speaker 1: where they're serious about Jesus and really make some of
30:18
Speaker 1: those transformative choices where there's really no going back. You've
30:21
Speaker 1: trusted him on this one, you're recognizing what he did
30:24
Speaker 1: for you, and now you're kind of all in.
30:28
Speaker 2: Another great question I want to say to be in
30:31
Speaker 2: with I've always loved stagely curious to people. Yeah, and
30:37
Speaker 2: a church planter. I've served a pastor in a lot
30:39
Speaker 2: of different capacities and serve pastors and church leaders and
30:46
Speaker 2: non proper leaders and a likes of I'm always asking
30:51
Speaker 2: them to be asking others about how are they engaging
30:56
Speaker 2: with curious non Christian people. Look came from by kind
31:01
Speaker 2: of folks. If we're not engaging in culture that way,
31:04
Speaker 2: then we have completely lost the law. Jesus was phenomenal
31:09
Speaker 2: of this. He was the best ever at this and
31:12
Speaker 2: so we as followers of Jesus also need to get
31:16
Speaker 2: up on that ball and be good at this time.
31:18
Speaker 2: And I think part of it is following the pattern
31:21
Speaker 2: of Jesus. I mean, Jesus thought of questions right aashed
31:27
Speaker 2: over three hundred questions in the Gospels. He asked a
31:30
Speaker 2: lot of questions. He did so because he was engaging
31:35
Speaker 2: and helping their curiosity to get peaked so that they
31:39
Speaker 2: would want more. He also did an interesting combination that
31:44
Speaker 2: we don't do much in our culture these days, but
31:49
Speaker 2: at least in Western culture, and that is his direct One. Two.
31:55
Speaker 2: Jesus would proclaim the gospel, and then he would the gospel.
32:01
Speaker 2: And you would always see these two put together. It
32:04
Speaker 2: wasn't one or the other. Now, sometimes it wasn't in
32:07
Speaker 2: the order. Sometimes demonstration would come first of it. It
32:10
Speaker 2: was to proclamation some kind of explanation of the gospel,
32:13
Speaker 2: or a declaration of the gospel followed by a demonstration.
32:17
Speaker 2: You know, he would peel, would raise people from the dead,
32:21
Speaker 2: he would drive out demons, he would bring about life
32:26
Speaker 2: change in a person such that that would confirm and
32:31
Speaker 2: corroborate the story that he was telling about who God
32:35
Speaker 2: really is and how you can be in a relationship
32:37
Speaker 2: with him. So, if be involved in that proclamation and
32:44
Speaker 2: demonstration of ministry, whether on one basis or whether it's
32:50
Speaker 2: in a larger group, it could be one to one,
32:52
Speaker 2: one to few, one to many. But I think it
32:55
Speaker 2: works in all those contexts. And in part, you know,
33:00
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that we necessarily need to be involved
33:04
Speaker 2: in being a miracle worker, and I'd always have those
33:08
Speaker 2: kinds of gifts, right. However, we can be involved in
33:11
Speaker 2: bringing healing to people's lives, conserving others. We can be
33:19
Speaker 2: involved in bringing good over evil in other people's lives.
33:24
Speaker 2: I don't care what kind of have You can be
33:26
Speaker 2: involved in doing that on a broad scale, and you
33:29
Speaker 2: can do that again, whether it's one on one, in
33:32
Speaker 2: a small group or in a larger group.
33:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's helpful.
33:39
Speaker 1: I think that gives a sense of you know, you're
33:42
Speaker 1: giving people a picture. You're showing them, not just telling
33:46
Speaker 1: them the gospel. You're showing them what's going on. You're
33:49
Speaker 1: creating sort of a centripetal force that can draw them
33:52
Speaker 1: into something and give them ways that they can almost
33:56
Speaker 1: picture themselves being involved with it.
33:59
Speaker 3: The sort of.
34:01
Speaker 1: Experience they're going to have as they become more committed
34:06
Speaker 1: members of the Body of Christ. It's an interesting dynamic.
34:09
Speaker 1: I mean, I know this isn't the greatest analogy, but
34:12
Speaker 1: some sort of As you were talking, one of the
34:15
Speaker 1: things that came to mind was, you know, the way
34:16
Speaker 1: the old Temple structure and Tabernacle structure were put put
34:20
Speaker 1: in place, you had sort of the Holy of Holies
34:22
Speaker 1: where they're having this the priests or having this amazing
34:26
Speaker 1: experience with God one time a year, and then you
34:29
Speaker 1: go out in successive place and you don't ultimately have
34:31
Speaker 1: the Court of the Gentiles, and part of what we
34:34
Speaker 1: see happening in Christ is really the Jews and the Gentiles.
34:38
Speaker 1: You know, that separation is gone, and so you have
34:41
Speaker 1: this whole coming together. But I also think that you know,
34:44
Speaker 1: the gentiles who are sort of, you know, sort of
34:47
Speaker 1: mulling around the temple had to have been curious about
34:50
Speaker 1: what's going on. They have to understand what's going on here.
34:53
Speaker 1: And so there is a proximity even in the Old
34:56
Speaker 1: Testament as we look at some of these structures that
34:58
Speaker 1: were set up where folks who are curious about what's
35:01
Speaker 1: going on can actually be near it and try to
35:04
Speaker 1: understand it and look in on it. And it just
35:07
Speaker 1: strikes me that that is very similar to what you're
35:10
Speaker 1: describing here, is that the people who are curious need
35:12
Speaker 1: to be able to see sort of the way the
35:14
Speaker 1: sausage is made right, and that this needs to be
35:19
Speaker 1: a compelling operation that as we live it out, it
35:24
Speaker 1: needs to look and feel really good, not perfect, but
35:29
Speaker 1: it needs to be marked by these six things that
35:32
Speaker 1: you're talking about and give people a real picture of
35:36
Speaker 1: what it's going to look like to be a disciple
35:38
Speaker 1: of Jesus.
35:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me give you one example of that. There
35:41
Speaker 2: is a guy that is in a coaching group that
35:44
Speaker 2: I'm a part of, and he was sharing. We were
35:48
Speaker 2: talking about excited, you know, where have you seen the
35:51
Speaker 2: glory of God in your life recently? And we had
35:52
Speaker 2: a number of people share a variety of things having
35:57
Speaker 2: to do with you know, family and connections they made
36:01
Speaker 2: with their own son or daughter in their faith and
36:05
Speaker 2: like and this and this guy who was really kind
36:08
Speaker 2: of a assuming type of person recently retired, talked about
36:14
Speaker 2: how he had been serving in the local food pantries
36:18
Speaker 2: are part of their church's chynistery. And this couple came
36:22
Speaker 2: in were quite obviously and in conversation with them, he
36:29
Speaker 2: found out that they were homeless. He had recently been
36:32
Speaker 2: released from prison. Them were together, but they have been
36:37
Speaker 2: staying out in the woods the night before and then
36:42
Speaker 2: the woman had been bitten by a dog that morning,
36:45
Speaker 2: had gone to the emergency room and they just showed up.
36:48
Speaker 2: They had no clothes other than the clothes on their back.
36:52
Speaker 2: You know, she was seriously wounded. They had no food,
36:57
Speaker 2: they had no place to stay. Yeah, and he was like, well,
37:02
Speaker 2: let me see what I can do to help you. Obviously,
37:04
Speaker 2: he was able to provide some food for them. And
37:08
Speaker 2: he had some vow to give through the food pantry
37:11
Speaker 2: to them. And then they also had some clothes, just
37:16
Speaker 2: maybe one or two changes of clothes that they had available,
37:20
Speaker 2: as well as a black they could put their stuff in.
37:23
Speaker 2: They didn't even have that. And at the end of
37:26
Speaker 2: this conversation with them, he felt led them and they
37:31
Speaker 2: had wonderful title of prayer, and then he felt led
37:33
Speaker 2: to never done before. He said, now, if you have
37:37
Speaker 2: any further issues, here's my phone number, give me a call.
37:44
Speaker 2: And the next day the man of the couple gave
37:47
Speaker 2: him a call and said, you know, we appreciate everything
37:51
Speaker 2: you've done for us, but we have no place to say,
37:53
Speaker 2: and we have no money. And he said, well where
37:57
Speaker 2: are you right now? And they exchanged where the locations were,
38:01
Speaker 2: and he said, okay, well and you can come to
38:04
Speaker 2: my house. And he put this couple up. Now, he
38:09
Speaker 2: was a single guy living in a home by himself,
38:13
Speaker 2: but he didn't really know them. He took a real
38:17
Speaker 2: chance here uh to into his home and then he
38:22
Speaker 2: talked with them and helped them, help help the man
38:24
Speaker 2: to be able to find a job, help them to
38:27
Speaker 2: be able to get some kind of transport transportation. So
38:29
Speaker 2: he could get back and forth and take care of
38:31
Speaker 2: other needs that they have helped them in their relationship. Work,
38:36
Speaker 2: got some things in the relationship, and he acted really
38:39
Speaker 2: much like a father to adult children, the kind of
38:43
Speaker 2: father that neither of them had ever had. Yeah, and
38:48
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, you like, we've got a
38:52
Speaker 2: real Christian in our hands here. I mean, he shared
38:58
Speaker 2: the story and you could have a pin drop on
39:01
Speaker 2: carpet in that room. I mean, our eyes got wider,
39:04
Speaker 2: our jaws was slacked, Like, oh my gosh, are you kiddyy?
39:08
Speaker 2: You really did this? He says, Well, I had to
39:11
Speaker 2: do it. God was calling me to do it, Like
39:13
Speaker 2: who else was going to help them? It was me.
39:17
Speaker 2: I was the one.
39:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, And.
39:20
Speaker 2: By the sheer and utter grace of God, he followed
39:23
Speaker 2: that call. That's an example of someone who is demonstrating
39:27
Speaker 2: the lower in unmistakable fashion, Like how can you not
39:32
Speaker 2: be attracted to that? I mean, just listening to him
39:34
Speaker 2: till I've ever met the couple, I was attracted to that.
39:38
Speaker 3: Yeah.
39:40
Speaker 2: So when we demonstrate the gospel, when we say the
39:43
Speaker 2: gospel before we put it this way, when we show
39:46
Speaker 2: the gospel before we say it, it gives our words
39:50
Speaker 2: so much more power.
39:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, people tend to put that together exactly.
39:55
Speaker 1: It's you have this concept in the book book, and
40:01
Speaker 1: well we're getting close to time, so I want to
40:03
Speaker 1: kind of end on this question. But you have this
40:05
Speaker 1: concept in the book called the river churches, and so
40:08
Speaker 1: I want you to talk a little bit about the
40:10
Speaker 1: river churches and how you how what you mean by that,
40:13
Speaker 1: and then how might a church go about cultivating that?
40:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a great question. The This is something
40:20
Speaker 2: that I learned from Larry Walchmere. I don't know if
40:25
Speaker 2: you've run across him or not. He's a pastor out
40:28
Speaker 2: in the California area, and he talked about the difference
40:31
Speaker 2: between the lake churches and river churches. Lake churches are
40:35
Speaker 2: like bodies of water that don't move. You know, we've
40:38
Speaker 2: all been to the lake.
40:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I.
40:41
Speaker 2: Have to go to lake. I mean, who doesn't want
40:43
Speaker 2: to go to lake. There are people that build houses
40:44
Speaker 2: so they can have lake homes and be around the
40:47
Speaker 2: lake all the time, right, And Lake church much like that.
40:51
Speaker 2: They they want to draw people to the lake, so
40:54
Speaker 2: they create more and more attractions for that and program
40:57
Speaker 2: the activities and services and festivals and sports, leagues and
41:01
Speaker 2: all kinds of things, and everything has to happen at
41:04
Speaker 2: the church building because that's where the lake is, and
41:06
Speaker 2: the whole goal is to grow the lake bigger. Yeah,
41:11
Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, I was absolutely enamored
41:14
Speaker 2: with that whole concept. I never knew that there was
41:15
Speaker 2: any other kind of church growing up, and as a
41:18
Speaker 2: young pastor, I was enamored with the Great Lakes. You know,
41:22
Speaker 2: these churches that were ten twenty thousand in a tennis Like,
41:26
Speaker 2: how on earth does that happen? Isn't that the And
41:30
Speaker 2: then I got introduced to this idea of a river church,
41:34
Speaker 2: which is quite different. So a river church is the
41:39
Speaker 2: kind of church that people to find God and become
41:44
Speaker 2: a deeply devoted disciple. And as they are living out that,
41:49
Speaker 2: jumping into the current, the stream of the Holy Spirit
41:55
Speaker 2: working in and through that church, they are led downstream
42:00
Speaker 2: to carry Jesus to all the other folks that they
42:02
Speaker 2: see downstream. That happens in a place and stays in
42:07
Speaker 2: that place, it's constantly flowing somewhere else. So ironically, river
42:12
Speaker 2: churches don't really care that much about the building, just
42:18
Speaker 2: don't even have a building. They just meet in small
42:21
Speaker 2: groups and communities around a particular area, or they might
42:25
Speaker 2: and meet in a whole bunch of different spots in
42:30
Speaker 2: a particular region. Or they might have a cadre of
42:35
Speaker 2: people that they send out and try to start some
42:39
Speaker 2: kind of new work and unreached area. That's a population center.
42:45
Speaker 2: They're constantly on the move, trying to make disciples wherever
42:49
Speaker 2: people are. They're not trying to get people to come
42:53
Speaker 2: to them, they're trying to go to where the people are.
42:56
Speaker 2: That's a river tribe, river churches. I kind of used
43:03
Speaker 2: that as an acronym for what it means to disciple others,
43:07
Speaker 2: because this is how you know you've got a disciple
43:08
Speaker 2: in your hands. They're making another disciple. The person's not
43:13
Speaker 2: making another disciple. They haven't actually become a disciple yet.
43:16
Speaker 2: They're they're on their way, they're in training, but they
43:20
Speaker 2: haven't actually made it yet. Because that's the sure that
43:24
Speaker 2: you've got a disciple. How do you do that well?
43:27
Speaker 2: I talked about, you know, kind of a five step approach.
43:32
Speaker 2: You relay, you invite, you visualize, you encourage, and then
43:39
Speaker 2: you release. So you relay with the Holy Spirit has
43:43
Speaker 2: done in your life through amation and demonstrations we talked
43:46
Speaker 2: about earlier. Do you invite them into a closer relationship,
43:50
Speaker 2: you know, like you can't disciple people from a distance,
43:53
Speaker 2: they have to be up close. And Jesus brought people
43:56
Speaker 2: up close. All right, we've taught thousands, but he had
43:59
Speaker 2: to disciples. And then he had three people that were
44:04
Speaker 2: a part of his little executive team, Peter, James and John,
44:07
Speaker 2: and so he invited them into a closer relationship so
44:11
Speaker 2: that they could get and get a feel for what
44:15
Speaker 2: it means to really live as a disciple. And then
44:18
Speaker 2: he visualized this is the third step, to visualize what
44:23
Speaker 2: it's like, what it is that God is doing in
44:27
Speaker 2: it that you can see them. I can't see ye
44:31
Speaker 2: visualize what they are doing, what God is doing another person.
44:35
Speaker 2: Then you call it course. Like I say, James, you know,
44:37
Speaker 2: I really see that that God has gifted you with
44:40
Speaker 2: a bright mind and the desire to share your faith
44:43
Speaker 2: in in coagent and compelling ways. And one of the
44:48
Speaker 2: ways you can do that, James, on a broad scale
44:51
Speaker 2: is through podcasting. And somebody somewhere along the line had
44:55
Speaker 2: that conversation with you, and that's why we're doing this podcast.
45:00
Speaker 2: They saw it in you before, you saw it in yourself,
45:02
Speaker 2: and they called it forth. It did the work of
45:04
Speaker 2: a profit essentially. And then, of course once that happens,
45:10
Speaker 2: then that person's gonna need some encouragement because it's going
45:12
Speaker 2: to feel a little shaky to begin with. They have
45:15
Speaker 2: really action done that kind of thing before, and you
45:19
Speaker 2: need some confidence. You need someone to come alongside as
45:22
Speaker 2: a good encourage do to say you can do this.
45:26
Speaker 2: I see this in you. You're making the right steps.
45:28
Speaker 2: This is something that you to do. Let's do it
45:31
Speaker 2: as much as possible together to begin with, and then
45:36
Speaker 2: you release right because the whole point of making a
45:40
Speaker 2: disciple is so that person can then go make other
45:43
Speaker 2: disciples and you release them to do the same kind
45:46
Speaker 2: of thing with other people's.
45:50
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. I love the acronym. I love the steps.
45:53
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that makes really good sense. It
45:56
Speaker 1: resonates so much the visualization aspect of just reading a
45:59
Speaker 1: book on blessing the Old Testament and talking about how
46:01
Speaker 1: these blessings are not just well wishes, right just you know, hey,
46:07
Speaker 1: hope that happens.
46:08
Speaker 3: Great.
46:09
Speaker 1: You know, they're calling forth something, They're a participation with
46:13
Speaker 1: God and doing something and so true blessing is going
46:15
Speaker 1: to be aligned with what God is going to do,
46:18
Speaker 1: what we know God is going to do for you.
46:21
Speaker 1: And it just strikes me that that visualization step is
46:23
Speaker 1: right aligned with that sort of blessing that we see
46:27
Speaker 1: often in the Old Testament, especially in the Book of Genesis.
46:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, some of the best things that have happened in
46:33
Speaker 2: my life have happened because someone saw something to me
46:36
Speaker 2: that I didn't see in myself and they called it.
46:39
Speaker 1: For Yeah, really love that. Very good Roger. This is
46:44
Speaker 1: a fantastic book. I think it's really important. Discipleships are
46:48
Speaker 1: one of those areas that I think about an awful lot,
46:51
Speaker 1: and so I very much appreciate the structure that you've
46:54
Speaker 1: put through it to it and the way that you've
46:57
Speaker 1: explained it. I think it's such a It doesn't feel like, hey,
47:02
Speaker 1: here's step one, here's step two, here's step three. It
47:05
Speaker 1: feels more like an organic process and a mix of
47:09
Speaker 1: activities that you need to be involved in, and then
47:12
Speaker 1: the growth will sort of come as you do these things.
47:15
Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate those more organic approaches. I
47:18
Speaker 1: think that's really how God works. And even though people
47:22
Speaker 1: may not they may look at it and be like, well,
47:24
Speaker 1: I really like the three steps, thank you. The reality
47:28
Speaker 1: is that it may be okay to start with the
47:30
Speaker 1: three steps, but at some point you have to stop
47:33
Speaker 1: looking at the ingredients on the back of the box
47:35
Speaker 1: and the instructions and you have to just start making
47:37
Speaker 1: the cake on your own, you know what I'm saying.
47:39
Speaker 1: Like there you have to develop a real sense for
47:41
Speaker 1: how this stuff actually works because you're not in a
47:45
Speaker 1: controlled environment all the time, you don't always have all
47:47
Speaker 1: the ingredients you'd like to have, and you've still got
47:50
Speaker 1: to make the cake. So, yeah, this has been great.
47:54
Speaker 1: Where can people find the book? Where can people find you?
47:59
Speaker 2: The book is everywhere the books are sold these days,
48:02
Speaker 2: so just up on Amazon or Barnes and Noble wherever
48:05
Speaker 2: you want to go. And if you want to find
48:08
Speaker 2: a little bit more about me, you can go to
48:10
Speaker 2: the Humilitygroup dot org. That's the coaching organization that I'm
48:14
Speaker 2: a part of that I have the privilege of being
48:17
Speaker 2: able to found and so we're excited about the things
48:19
Speaker 2: that are going on there. And actually I put out
48:21
Speaker 2: a weekly blog that's free that you can pick up
48:25
Speaker 2: if you want.
48:26
Speaker 3: Very good.
48:27
Speaker 1: Well, we'll have those links I'll link out to the
48:29
Speaker 1: book in the show notes, folks, so if you're interested
48:31
Speaker 1: in the book, i'd encourage you to go and get that,
48:34
Speaker 1: and then we'll also link to the Humility Group Humilitygroup
48:37
Speaker 1: dot org and you can link out and find more
48:42
Speaker 1: from Roger there. Really appreciate you being on today. Roger
48:46
Speaker 1: just thanks so much for writing the book. Thanks for
48:48
Speaker 1: all the work you're doing, and really appreciate you.
48:51
Speaker 2: Thanks James Joy to be on this particular podcast. I'm
48:55
Speaker 2: going to be listening to this podcast. You've got something
48:58
Speaker 2: really great going.
48:58
Speaker 3: On hereppreciate that.
49:00
Speaker 1: Appreciate that, all right, everybody, Well, thanks for being with us,
49:04
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the
49:06
Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian Take Care. I just want
49:09
Speaker 1: to take a second to thank the team at Life
49:10
Speaker 1: Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast.
49:14
Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens
49:16
Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got
49:19
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.