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Thomas Nast, Part One: The Cartoonist Who Shaped America · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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  Speaker 1: the Legend. Super producer, mister Max Williams.
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  Speaker 2: I am Max Williams.
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  Speaker 3: Oh Man, yours was so much better than mine. I
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  Speaker 3: just said that was okay, though I've never done that.
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  Speaker 1: I think we've established the character though. I think we
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  Speaker 1: got that part, oh for sure.
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  Speaker 3: Have you guys noticed that when we, like, you're doing
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  Speaker 3: the intro BN, I start like acting like I'm a
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  Speaker 3: boxer getting ready for like I'm in the ring, you know,
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  Speaker 3: throwing ghost punches and stuff. I'm just trying to hide
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  Speaker 3: myself up get excited about about history that hard.
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  Speaker 4: We like his Save Save You're an old brown.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I am bed Bull, and we are fellow Ridiculous Historians.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: We are all unanimously fans of cartoons. Do you guys
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: ever check out the New Yorker cartoons? Do you remember
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: the Far Side, those kind of one panel shots.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's sort of the New Yorker style, right,
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  Speaker 3: the like one panel where there's lots of little Easter
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  Speaker 3: eggs or there's like a couple of different reads on it,
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  Speaker 3: and it's very you know, the art style is very
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  Speaker 3: just so I had never thought about that. It was
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  Speaker 3: the is it Far Side? Was that connected to the
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  Speaker 3: New Yorker?
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  Speaker 4: I didn't know that.
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  Speaker 1: No, No, it's just the similar form for sure.
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  Speaker 5: Now that makes sense. Also, have you guys ever seen
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  Speaker 5: the show documentary?
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  Speaker 2: Now? Of course they have that episode about the guy
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: who's trying to meet the Far.
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  Speaker 4: Side Far Side Gary Lars.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, he's trying to meet Gary Lars and he's like,
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  Speaker 5: it's Fred Armison is playing the fictional character who's trying
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  Speaker 5: to do that going around with his dad, and he's
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  Speaker 5: like basically stalking Garylar.
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  Speaker 4: That's not cool. We don't not for Gary.
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  Speaker 3: We don't stalk our favorite cartoonist. I guess some people
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  Speaker 3: maybe do. I wonder if Thomas Nast ever had a stalker.
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  Speaker 1: Ah, there we go. So recently, on our episode about PEZ,
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  Speaker 1: we talked about some of the most expensive PEZ dispensers,
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  Speaker 1: which were political gifts or political swag, you know, the
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  Speaker 1: Republican Elephant, Democratic donkey. This launched conversation on and off
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  Speaker 1: air about how those came to be because, as we know,
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  Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin originally wanted I think a turkey as a
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  Speaker 1: political symbol because you were like, he was like, those
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  Speaker 1: are right bastards. He was correct, for sure.
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  Speaker 3: I mean turkey also seems like maybe more of a
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  Speaker 3: it's still kind of a seasonal national bird. You know,
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  Speaker 3: around Thanksgiving time, it seems like it temporarily replaces the eagle,
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  Speaker 3: and then we go back to, you know, just worshiping
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  Speaker 3: the eagle for the rest of the year.
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  Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to do a turkey partning episode.
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  Speaker 1: The story is relatively straightforward, but it's kind of sad anyway.
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  Speaker 1: If you're looking back throughout US history or wondering why
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  Speaker 1: did the GOP the Grand Old Party get associated with
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  Speaker 1: the elephant and why did the Democrats get associated with
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  Speaker 1: the donkey, Well, the answer is one guy, Thomas Nast. Well,
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  Speaker 1: the answer is sort of one guy.
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  Speaker 4: Anyway.
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  Speaker 1: It's ridiculous history. We owe a lot of today's story
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  Speaker 1: to the Massachusetts Historical Society. You know, if you are
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  Speaker 1: an animator, a visual artist, a cartoonist, you probably already
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  Speaker 1: know what we're gonna say about Thomas Nast. He is
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  Speaker 1: considered the father of the American cartoon.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean if you look at his work, you can
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  Speaker 3: see his style in so much other stuff, especially satire.
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  Speaker 3: Like if anyone's ever seen the Pink Floyd film The Wall,
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  Speaker 3: there are a lot of animated bits in it by
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  Speaker 3: Gerald Scarf, and it really captures this sort of grotesque
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  Speaker 3: kind of fat cat character quality, you know, of like
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  Speaker 3: the wealthy and like politicians and people in power and
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  Speaker 3: judges and stuff that Nast really kind of created.
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  Speaker 4: Like a very you know, famous image of his is like.
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  Speaker 3: A very portly dude in a suit with a bag
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  Speaker 3: of money for a head, and he's called the Brains.
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  Speaker 3: You know. It's like that stuff really bled into a
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  Speaker 3: lot of like sixties kind of like counterculture, you know,
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  Speaker 3: like our crumb even and things like that.
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  Speaker 1: And we can see the descendants of that kind of
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  Speaker 1: satirical visual art in things like the infamous Saturday Night
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Live Who Can Trolls the Media sketch? Do you guys
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  Speaker 1: remember that car.
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  Speaker 4: I don't remember that one, but I mean I don't
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  Speaker 4: doubt it was.
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  Speaker 2: Just like it's the one they got like basically polled too.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll tell you it did not get banned, but
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  Speaker 1: it was only aired one time. You can still find
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  Speaker 1: it on YouTube and it's got you know, it's like
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  Speaker 1: a schoolhouse rock kind of thing. That's exactly right, and
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  Speaker 1: that's the style. It's an explanation of how few companies
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  Speaker 1: actually own the media. Uh and it gets conspiratorial, I
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  Speaker 1: dare say very quickly.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, was that ge who owned NBC at the time,
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  Speaker 5: because they obviously go after the owner of NBC as well.
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  Speaker 5: But it's like in the same vein, like you know,
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  Speaker 5: Samuel L. Jackson is definitely not banned from SNL. He's
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  Speaker 5: not banned from dropping an f wort on SNL.
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  Speaker 1: Rach against the Machine is still going to play again.
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  Speaker 4: Right, Well, yeah, what do they do? Like they burned
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  Speaker 4: a flag or something like that.
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  Speaker 3: But we're talking about all of this like kind of
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  Speaker 3: counterculture sort of protesting, you know, anti establishment stuf, because
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  Speaker 3: that's what Nas kind of put forth, Like he used
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  Speaker 3: hit the medium of cartooning to really stick it to
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  Speaker 3: the man, like in a very very fundamental way that
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  Speaker 3: could be understood by everybody, because a really stark black
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  Speaker 3: and white cartoon one or two panels that kind of
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  Speaker 3: lampoons a politician or somebody in a humorous way, but
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  Speaker 3: also communicates a message.
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  Speaker 4: This is a bad dude that resonates.
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes more than like the really hard to sift through
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  Speaker 3: rhetoric of politics.
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  Speaker 1: You know, sure, yeah, yeah, and we'll see shadows of
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  Speaker 1: doctor Seuss or soyce he pronounced it. Let's see, let's
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  Speaker 1: get into it all right. Cast your memory back, folks.
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  Speaker 1: It's late September eighteen forty. There's a baby born in Germany.
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  Speaker 1: His name Thomas Nast. He could have been no offense, noal,
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  Speaker 1: a young German boy.
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  Speaker 4: See, I would say, you qual a fight as a
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  Speaker 4: young German boy.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so I guess you're right. He was a young
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  Speaker 1: German boy until about the age of six, at which
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  Speaker 1: point his parents immigrated.
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  Speaker 4: To New York.
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  Speaker 3: Honestly, this is very much my same story. I was
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  Speaker 3: born in Wurtzburg, Germany, as a young German boy, lived
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  Speaker 3: there till the age of six, and then immigrated. I
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  Speaker 3: didn't actually immigrate. He had an American Oh, I had American
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  Speaker 3: parents that you know. I was born like associated with
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  Speaker 3: American citizens abroad or whatever. But still me and Thomas
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  Speaker 3: are we that different here? I moved to Georgia, by
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  Speaker 3: the way, so maybe a little different. But he arrived
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  Speaker 3: in New York at the age of six, where he
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  Speaker 3: had access to all of this cool culture he wouldn't
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  Speaker 3: have had in his little German village. He studied art
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  Speaker 3: at the National Academy of Design, and then when he
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  Speaker 3: turned fifteen, he got a kind of apprentice type job
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  Speaker 3: as a draftsman for Frank Leslie's Illustrated newspaper.
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  Speaker 4: I guess if he's an actual draftsman.
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  Speaker 3: He's not an apprentice, but this feels sort of like
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  Speaker 3: an entry level position, that is the Frank Leslie's Illustrated newspaper.
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  Speaker 3: And then eighteen he moved on to Harper's Weekly, which
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  Speaker 3: is a you know, obviously continues to loom large in
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  Speaker 3: the world of like literary kind of periodicals.
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  Speaker 1: I have a subscription and I make sure to tell
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  Speaker 1: everybody about it the minute we meet.
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  Speaker 3: Well, this is the first I've heard of it, So
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  Speaker 3: glad to be included. So isn't Harper's another one of it?
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  Speaker 3: It's like a very kind of you know, smarty pants,
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  Speaker 3: kind of mad.
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  Speaker 1: It's like Harper's Vanity Fair, the New Yorker, et cetera,
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  Speaker 1: et cetera sort.
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  Speaker 3: Of high minded, academic, sort of New Yorky sort of ideals, right,
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  Speaker 3: it's it's for the Americans.
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  Speaker 1: It's very uh, we have Paris Review at home, got
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  Speaker 1: it kind of kind of vibes, But no, it is
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  Speaker 1: a great it is a great literary resource. And to
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  Speaker 1: get a job at eighteen work for Harper's, that's nothing
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  Speaker 1: to sneeze at.
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  Speaker 4: You know. He also he would have been doing layouts
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  Speaker 4: at this point.
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  Speaker 3: I imagine, right, if he's a draftsman and then he
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  Speaker 3: gets a job and he's initially kind of probably helping
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  Speaker 3: lay out the publication and doing art direction kind of stuff.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, unclear exactly what the nature of his job was
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  Speaker 1: at that point. He may have you know, he obviously
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  Speaker 1: wasn't the editor of the of the outfit. I almost
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  Speaker 1: called it a rag. But you know, he also probably
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  Speaker 1: by eighteen, he didn't have his iconic facial hair quite imposition.
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  Speaker 1: It's sort of like, you know, when you see a
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  Speaker 1: picture a Lincoln without his beard, or when you see
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  Speaker 1: a picture of Salvador Dali without his weird mustache. He's
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  Speaker 1: he's not quite evolved into the vital form of.
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  Speaker 3: Nast which which will resemble pretty closely sort of a
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  Speaker 3: Russian dignitary, you know, very clean cut hair on top,
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  Speaker 3: but then like a crazy mustache and pointy beard.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, he eventually evolves into like a brunette Colonel Sanders.
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  Speaker 1: So to do that, to reach that final form, he
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  Speaker 1: has to cross the pond again. The New York Illustrated
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  Speaker 1: News sends him to England when he is twenty years old.
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  Speaker 1: It's eighteen sixty, and that same year he goes to
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  Speaker 1: Italy to cover It's kind of like he's a freelancer.
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  Speaker 1: There's this revolt led by a guy named Giuseppe Garibaldi,
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  Speaker 1: and he covers this for the London News, the Illustrated
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  Speaker 1: London News, but he also goes and sells the same
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  Speaker 1: reporting to American publications. He's still working for Harper's the
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  Speaker 1: entire time. He's kind of like, picture him like a
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  Speaker 1: a hired hitman of the pen, you know what I mean.
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  Speaker 1: So he's drawing pictures left and right.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's I guess that's what I was trying
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  Speaker 4: to wrap my head around.
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  Speaker 3: And maybe it sounded like a dum dumb when I
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  Speaker 3: was asking about whether he was, you know, sort of
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  Speaker 3: an art director or whatever, like the job would be,
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  Speaker 3: you know, an or for an early stage in one's
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  Speaker 3: career as an artist, like out of publication like this,
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  Speaker 3: but he was illustrating news. It wasn't exactly cartoons yet,
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  Speaker 3: but it was sort of these pieces that would go
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  Speaker 3: along with you know, coverage of like sporting events and
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  Speaker 3: even you know, like big political moments mm hmm.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, big political moments indeed. And just to draw this
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  Speaker 1: out a little bit more, when he went to England,
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  Speaker 1: originally he was drawing pictures of one of the big
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  Speaker 1: prize fights of the time, an American named John c.
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  Speaker 1: Heenan and an Englishman named Thomas Sayers. So it's kind
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  Speaker 1: of like they hired him to travel on site and
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  Speaker 1: draw a boxing match, which is kind of a cool gig,
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  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, what do you do?
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  Speaker 4: Oh?
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  Speaker 1: I draw cartoons of boxers. That's that's an interesting thing
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  Speaker 1: to say on a first date. But as we know,
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  Speaker 1: the Harper's Weekly this is the employer that gives him
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  Speaker 1: his early fame. And if you look back at books
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  Speaker 1: like The Lifetimes and Legacy of Thomas Nast by John Adler,
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  Speaker 1: you'll see you'll see that people consider him not just
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  Speaker 1: a cartoonist, but a journalist in his own right.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it's sort of an editorial journalist because
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  Speaker 3: he is imparting so much of his own viewpoint, you know,
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  Speaker 3: like politically into his work, which does kind of start
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  Speaker 3: to evolve into these very pointed political cartoons.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Atler says on his website. For the book, he says,
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  Speaker 1: quote Nast was the first journalist who didn't own his
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  Speaker 1: paper to play a major role in shaping public opinion. However,
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  Speaker 1: he could not have done so without the quality, consistency,
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  Speaker 1: financial strength, and resultant reach and dominance of Harper's Weekly,
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  Speaker 1: the country's leading illustrated newspaper. To unpack that, what it
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  Speaker 1: means is that he was shaping public opinion in the
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  Speaker 1: way that a publisher would at this time.
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  Speaker 4: But he was just a guy that they had hired.
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  Speaker 1: And when he comes back from the prize fight and
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  Speaker 1: from his partnerships in Italy, he starts to cover the
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  Speaker 1: American Civil War for New York Illustrated News.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of these pieces really are just kind
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  Speaker 3: of these tableaus of things that he likely witnessed, you know.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, this is a stand in for let's call
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  Speaker 3: it like embedded war photographers. I don't know if you've
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  Speaker 3: seen it yet, but I watched Civil War the other day,
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  Speaker 3: and I thought it was great and really really well
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  Speaker 3: sound designed, like one of the loudest, most kind of
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  Speaker 3: arresting war moves I've ever seen. But you know, the
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  Speaker 3: idea of capturing what you see kind of unapologetically, you know,
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  Speaker 3: being there in the moment to show what war is
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  Speaker 3: actually like.
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  Speaker 4: He was doing that, you know, with pen and ink.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is kind of a precedent for gonzo journalism.
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  Speaker 1: I would argue in that there is not a He's
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  Speaker 1: not making claims of objectivity.
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  Speaker 4: That's exactly what I was trying to say.
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  Speaker 1: And let's go to our friends at the Britannica who
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  Speaker 1: say the following. They say that his cartoons after the
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  Speaker 1: Battle eighteen sixty two attacking Northerners opposed to energetic prosecution
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  Speaker 1: of the war, and his other cartoon Emancipation for Mateen
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  Speaker 1: sixty three, showed the evils of slavery and the benefits
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  Speaker 1: of abolishing slavery. These two cartoons, in particular, the ones
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  Speaker 1: that are telling the Northerners to get into the war
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  Speaker 1: and the ones that are saying, hey, by the way,
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  Speaker 1: enslaving people is evil. Apparently these two cartoons were so
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  Speaker 1: effective that President Abraham Lincoln called Thomas Nest our best
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  Speaker 1: recruiting sergeant.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, after the battle almost looks like a kind of
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  Speaker 3: Goya painting or something, you know, depicting the evils of
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: war or like just a classic these you know, tons
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: of action going on in the foreground in the background,
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  Speaker 3: and less a political cartoon more than sort of an
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: amalgamation of like various aspects that he likely witnessed, all
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  Speaker 3: kind of squished into this one insane scene where people
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  Speaker 3: are being thrown, bodies are being thrown into pits, and
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: you know, you've got workers with shovels like covering the
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  Speaker 3: body he's in the background. There's things on fire, and
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  Speaker 3: you've got you know, soldiers on horseback, and it's just
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  Speaker 3: absolute chaos and.
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  Speaker 4: Hell on earth.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what the American public needed at that point.
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  Speaker 4: You know.
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  Speaker 1: He does a lot of other stuff too. Spoiler Thomas
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  Speaker 1: Nast survives the Civil War, which is something not everyone
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  Speaker 1: at that time could say. Sure, And on January third,
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  Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three, in his old standby now Harper's Weekly.
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  Speaker 1: Still he's a very young dude. He's like, what twenty
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  Speaker 1: three at this point, so twenty two, he hasn't yet
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  Speaker 1: seen his twenty third birthday, but he shows America his
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: interpretation of Santa Claus.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Madison Avenue would have loved to
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  Speaker 3: have him. Yeah, isn't that funny the way like he
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: basically accidentally invented one of the most ubiquitous brands in
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  Speaker 3: the universe, like out of spite, kind of like as
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: a part of a really you know, clever joke.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a civil it's civil war propaganda. And look
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: again we've said it on stuff that'll want you to know,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: just to say it here. Clearly, not all propaganda is bad,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: you know, like anti smoking campaigns are propaganda, but they're
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  Speaker 1: also right. So he he is not trying to he's
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: not trying to cement the image of Santa Claus and
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: pop culture. He is attempting to, as you said, Noel,
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  Speaker 1: he's attempting to make a clever repost, a bit of
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: satirical commentary about the Civil War.
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  Speaker 6: But it could also be used by the powers that
• 17:47
  Speaker 6: be as a look, everyone's really stoked and happy and
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: hanging out with Fanta Claus on the front lines, like
• 17:53
  Speaker 6: this is the beauty of art.
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  Speaker 3: Kind of in these times where someone needed a benefactor
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  Speaker 3: where you almost had to like hide your little barb
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  Speaker 3: kind of buried somewhere deep within the piece that was
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  Speaker 3: being paid for and funded by, you know, some sort
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  Speaker 3: of powerful person. And I know he was working for
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  Speaker 3: an independent magazine, but there, you know, there had to
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  Speaker 3: have been some pressures.
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  Speaker 4: We even know, like Walt Disney.
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  Speaker 3: Company made like war propaganda at the best of Uncle Sam.
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  Speaker 3: I imagine there was, you know, this was perhaps requested
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  Speaker 3: or something.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know. It's very interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Well, also this leads to the common misconception that he
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  Speaker 1: is the creator of the image of Uncle Sam.
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  Speaker 4: You know what I mean that that.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the stars and stripes dude, who also kind
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  Speaker 1: of looks like Thomas Nast pointye and say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I want you for the US Army. If you look
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  Speaker 1: at these early drawings, this eighteen sixty three drawing of Santa,
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  Speaker 1: you'll see that it is clearly propaganda.
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  Speaker 4: To your point.
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  Speaker 1: Santa here is wearing a jacket with stars and pants
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  Speaker 1: colored in stripes, very Uncle Sam like, right, and in
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  Speaker 1: his hands he has a puppet toy with a rope
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  Speaker 1: around its neck. He's hanging a little effigy of Confederate
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  Speaker 1: President Jefferson Davis not too subtle.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but am I am I completely overreading into it
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  Speaker 3: that maybe in his mind there was also a little
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: bit of sarcasm in there where it's like a Santa
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: Claus on the front lines.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: It's almost like too rich to be, you know what
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: I mean. I don't know. I mean because because.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: He's like giving a gift to the Union, you know,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: and here's the gift I give you. It is the
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: president of the Confederacy dying by hanging.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: So then there's a second illustration that we found that
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: shows kind of like a sad Union soldier sort of
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: like missing his uh I guess, missing his wife sort
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: of These two circular frames in this other circle to
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: the left, which I guess you could consider a panel,
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: is his wife praying for his safe return, and there's
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: a big block of text at the top saying Christmas Eve,
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: and the upper left you can kind of see Santa
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: Claus about to come down the chimney to presumably bring
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: presents to the two sleeping children behind the wife of
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: the soldier who was far far away and missing his family.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: So man almost a little bit overly sentimental, But I
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: guess that was the idea that was what was needed
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: to kind of get people's emotions stirred up.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it is about stirring up emotions
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: at this point.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: Oh and see, there's so much stuff going on in these,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: like we were mentioning, there really is almost this gooya
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: ass quality in another panel at the bottom, and these
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: are all kind of rained with sort of Christmas wreaths
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: and then their American flag sort of buried in the ground.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: There's a very subtle small image of tombstones and like kind.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Of grave plots. The freshly dug graves looks like so.
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: If you go up to the top of it, there
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: is a cemetery gate right upove a red below Christmas
• 21:05
  Speaker 5: Eve the upper right.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: It's just like in the upper left you have like
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: kind of like the very.
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: Santa Christmas quintessential stand out on the rooftop on the
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: right side. Flip across the other side of you have
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: like this pretty much destroyed looking battlefield.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: And this is this is all to weaponize the concept
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: of Christmas, in that it is meant to give the
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: North the moral high ground. So Adam Gopnik writes the
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: following in a nineteen ninety seven issue of The New Yorker.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: He says, in these two drawings that we're talking about now,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Christmas became a Union holiday and Santa a Union local deity.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: It gave Christmas to the North, gave to the Union
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: cause an aura of domestic sentiment and even sentimentality.
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: So here we are in the North, we're the good guys.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: We celebrate Christmas. You folks like Christmas? Right, you aren't
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: you kind of all on board with the Union exactly?
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as I said, Madison, Avenue would have been happy
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: to have him. It's interesting, right, because I'm sort of
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: struggling with this idea of him being sort of a propagandist.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: And again, these are like positive propaganda campaigns. The Union
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: obviously was on the right side of history, and this
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: stuff is sort of weaponizing his wit and his ability
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: to like stir up people's emotions. But there is part
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: of me that's like, oh, but he's doing it for
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: the government, you know.
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: But again, this is a time where he was really
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: needed for that.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: He moved on towards being much more of a sort
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: of self directed, it seems, kind of political activist where
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: he could actually create whole movements single handed. You know,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: with his pen that could topple massive organizations.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: And his timing is amazing because at this point Christmas
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: is starting to evolve in the United States into the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: established traditions we have today, but it wasn't quite at
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: that level yet. You can look at things like the
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: eighteen twenty three poem A Visit from Saint Nicholas by
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Clement Clark Moore, you know, plus the Night before.
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: Christmas, of course, and all through the house.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly apparently then I have a lot of
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: questions about that poem. Anyway, then of course we know
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Charles Dickens Christmas Carol eighteen forty three, you know what
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, buy me the Finest Goose in all of London, right, And.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: In that poem and in those stories and all of
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: the kind of Santa lore that had started to really
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: you know, take hold at this point were descriptions of
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: old Saint Nick and that's what he was working from.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: And this is a big deal because it kind of gave,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: you know, a physical visual representation to something that people
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: had only kind of imagined thus far, and that ended
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: up becoming, like I was saying, like the thing that
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: sort of served as the template for like all kind
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: of future Santa imagery from that point on, at least in.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Like popular culture in America.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And this reminds me of conversations we've
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: had with our pal, Nick Benson. You can check out
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Nick Turbo Benson's art on Instagram. He illustrated our book
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: for us. He is, He's a fantastic guy, and I
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: love I love talking with him about just the process
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that he uses when he is creating art. Nick is
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: like Thomas Nast in that he loves a reference image.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: And one time he broke down for me how reference
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: images work. And you remember, we went and we went
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: to a photo shoot where he took pictures of us
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: so we could have visual references. Apparently Nast did the
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: same thing. He based his vision of Santa kind of
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: on himself, and then he used his wife and his
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: kids as references for other characters. So I suspect that
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: any elves he draws are basically his kids, right.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: Would I wouldn't doubt it. It's easy to do that.
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: You don't need any CGI or anything.
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: You just draw them a bunch of times, and you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: put them in different clothes and with different expressions.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: No one would be the wiser.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really neat the way Nick does use you know,
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: tons of different references and sometimes he'll combine like the
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: features of a couple of different characters into one by
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: like sort of using parts from different source images and.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Correct me if I'm wrong.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, there was there was no kind of ability
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: to capture photographic images of like moving subjects or of
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: you know, fast paced action. So that's why they needed
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: an illustrator because I believe at this point you still
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: had to kind of sit for portraits and you know,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: exposures would take a long time and you couldn't move
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: and things like that. So this ability to kind of
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: give shape to so many of these events and even
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: kind of imaginary concepts well sorry sorry kids, Santa's imaginary,
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: but was a huge deal and it really kind of
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: caught the imagination of the country.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and at this point, as you said, Noel, there
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: are things like modern photographs, but they're very they're still
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: very ted talking, you know what I mean, Like the
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Dea Gera type comes around in the eighteen thirties, so
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: this is it is much more common to have a
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: good illustrator just drawing week to week for a publication.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Nast would go on to create thirty three different depictions
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: of Santa Claus, and often these were, as we said, weaponized.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: These were political pieces, right, these were propaganda. One that
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: I think drew the attention of our research associate, Max
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Williams is this one from eighteen eighty one, which does
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: look very much like a modern Santa Claus and is
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: a political cartoon that is entirely aimed at getting better
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: paid for soldiers.
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: And if you look at.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Him, you know, he's a he's a fun guy, right,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: he's got toys, he's got a weird pipe. I think
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: they did nix the pipe later, right.
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, honestly, it kind of looks like
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the type of pipe that Gandalf smokes that halfling weed in,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: you know that he's always going on about. Sin's a
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: very long, narrow or stem kind of in a little bowl.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: Like it looks much more like something you can smoke
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: drug out of then you know, a jolly you know,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: bit of cherry tobacco or something. And he looks like
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: totally stone, not gonna lie. Yeah, they face that part out. Yeah,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: modern modern Santa vapes. Can you imagine there's this amazing
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: YouTube clip or I guess it's like a gift for
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: like a like a whatever where it's a scene from
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: the Lord of the Rings the Hobbit actually where basically
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Bilbo lights up his pipe and the smoke kind of
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: bilows off and then all of a sudden, you see.
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: Gandalf just pop out from behind the tree.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: And the heading is like the moment you light up
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: your boy, the moment you light up.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: That bowl or like Snoop Dogg and half Bait.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: It's like it's like the dude coming around from behind
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: the tree kind of rubbing his hands together, like let
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: me hit that.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I haven't even hit it yet.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: So uh so this continues, right, Coca Cola will take
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: nasty ideas later and they will they will pop further
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: popular this image. Uh but Nas doesn't know this at
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: He's not going to get paid for that either.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: He's just making his cartoons.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: It's it's tough to work in creative field. And so
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: he uh he again survives the Civil War. He keeps
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: pursuing this career, and now he's got a new favorite
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: guy to hate. Uh, give me some booze here, Max
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Andrew Johnson boo so, uh yeah, double booze uh So, Noel,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: how did uh how did Nast portray our buddy Andrew Johnson?
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: Boo yeah.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: And this is when he really starts to kind of
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: come into that sort of fat cat, grotesque politician caricature
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: that became such a staple of Nast style in the
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: way he portrays Andrew Johnson as this kind of iron fisted,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: repressive dictator type figure, as well as Southerners, you know,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: not really being able to kind of give up entirely
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: on their racist attitudes despite slavery, you know, being illegal.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: M hmm. Yeah.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: And this is also where he becomes even more weaponized.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: We could say.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: He starts targeting corrupt political reprobates. He swings for the King,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: he goes for Tammany ring Hold the phote everyone. It
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: turns out this is a two parter. This is going
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: to be the first half of our series on Thomas
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Nest And when you tune in two Part two, you'll
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: learn about adventures in Ecuador, You'll learn about the nature
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: of elephants and donkeys, and spoiler no, folks will also
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: hear us be surprised that this.
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: Was a two parter Oh yeah, yeah, spoiler for that
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: moment of realization.
• 30:55
  Speaker 5: It's either a two part or probably the longest Ridiculous
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: History episode in the history of ridiculous hit.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Oh so far, big big thanks to our super producer,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: the Man, myth, the Legend, mister Max Williams, Big big
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: thanks to aj Bahamas Jacobs. I used my earlier reference
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: for Jonathan Strickland already but strict if you're listening, Thanks
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: man of course.
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: Alex Williams who composed our theme, Chris Fhrascios, and Eves
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Chef Coates here in spirit, Max U with the facts
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Williams research associated shordinaire and super producer on both the
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: Ones and the twos.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: And Ben thank you for you know, being your own.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: Kind of version of Thomas Nast carrying that stick it
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: to the man ness, uh you know, with you throughout
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: throughout thisiness life.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: I'm kidab a pill, yeah pill, a weaponized pill. We'll
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: see you next time, folks.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.