Latest / Christians Reading Classics / Reading Ancient Pagans As Modern Christians

Transcript

Reading Ancient Pagans As Modern Christians · Christians Reading Classics

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, this is Ian.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the producer for Christians Reading Classics.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Here at Mere Orthodoxy, our mission is to create thoughtful media for the renewal of the church and culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: That includes this podcast, along with other podcasts, daily articles, a print journal, an online community, and more.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Mere Orthodoxy and all of our projects are supported by readers and listeners just like you.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: 2026 is looking like it will be the most exciting year in Mere Orthodoxy's 20-year history.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: But we need your help to make it happen.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoyed this podcast, want to see it continue, and partner with us to create even more resources like this.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can make that happen by becoming a member.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Go to Mereorthodoxy.com slash member to partner with us.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's Mereorthodoxy.com slash member.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Let's renew minds and restore hope for the good of the church and the culture.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Go to Mereorthodoxy.com slash member today.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: In the year 476 BC, King Hieron of Syracuse, a powerful Greek city-state in Sicily, won the horse race at the Olympic Games.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: He hired the poet Pindar to commemorate the occasion.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: A single horse race required a jockey on a horse, and we can readily assume that the king himself did not risk his life and limb around the tough corners of the race course.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, when we think of the ancient horse races or the chariot races, it is apt to consider their modern successor, car racing.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: There, cars slip, collide, crash, and flame up.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the riders emerge the worst for wear.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: But in this race, all went smoothly, perfectly for Huron's horse.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: And as the one who paid for the training of the horse and its rider, Huron received the crown and the accolades for his victory.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: In many ways, such a victory was a celebration of the king's orderly rule and ability to control the elements, human and equine.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, Pindar opens the celebratory hymn for this victory, Olympian one, by listing the best things of all.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Water is the best of elements, gold is the best of medals, and the Olympics are the best of all competitions.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: By winning the Olympics, Hieron demonstrated his control over all these elements.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: He is, in other words, a great king, one whose achievements are on par even with the gods, especially in this moment of glory.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Pindar, however, is not one to present facile celebrations.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, after the opening compliments and grandiose statements about Huron, the ode shifts into the mythical segment, so typical from Pindar's celebration odes.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Usually he selected myths that had some connection either to the victor's city of origin, or, as in this case, had a subtle moral lesson to offer.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Indeed, the myth Pindar tells in this story uh in this ode initially seems rather unflattering and unfitting for the occasion.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: It is the tale of Tantalus, a king once beloved by the gods, but who lost favor when he tried to test them in the most horrible way imaginable.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: He cooked his own son, Pelops, in a stew, and served the dish at a feast for the gods, just to see if anyone would notice.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Spoiler alert, they did, although not before a distracted Demeter nibbled on a piece.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: In response, Zeus promptly resurrected Pelops and punished Tantalus by eternally surrounding him with delicious fruit and plentiful water that he was unable to enjoy.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Dysfunctional families in Greek mythology are aplenty, and the family of Tantalus is particularly so.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Why did Tantalus, a king who had the gods' favor, decide to test their knowledge in such a horrific manner by killing and cooking his own son?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And why would Pindar include this myth in his celebration ode for the athletic victory of a great king?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Perhaps Tantalus's success was the most fitting way to describe the temptation that the greatest victories of our lives hold over us.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: They can become a massive boulder hanging over our heads, threatening to crush us.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Success, whether in athletics or in any other area of life, is a dangerously intoxicating drug.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is, on the other hand, something we all crave.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: What athlete, ancient or modern, doesn't dream of winning at the Olympics?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yet success can be seductive in all the wrong ways, since it tempts us to test the gods, as Pinder saw it, or to test God, as we might admit if we are honest.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: In our human strivings after power and glory and accomplishments, those things we conflate with immortality and eternity, we can easily make ourselves into our own gods.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: When victorious in any area of life, we should give glory to the gods, as Pinder said, lest they grow jealous of our success.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: Pinder was on to something significant that we know.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: All our strivings for victory and success and glory seize in Christ.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: In Christ alone, we can rest.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Our victories and successes belong to God.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: But in the greatest moments of victories, it is easy to claim these achievements as our own.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, Pinder was no fool.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: He knew which side his bread was buttered on, and he was not going to forthrightly tell one of the most powerful kings in the Greek-speaking world that he needed to resist the seductive allure of power.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: But he could hint at this truth in poetry and through the telling of a well-known myth.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: You too, O great king, are mortal, a creature of dust and fog.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Christians Reading Classics, a podcast from Mere Orthodoxy.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I am Nadia Williams, the podcast host, and I am book's editor at Mere Orthodoxy.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I am the author of Christians Reading Classics, a new book from Zondervan Academic, on which this podcast is based in some ways, both the concept of reading classics as Christians, and also just the idea that we can talk about these books today and find significance in them that is eternal.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just read to you an excerpt from this new book.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm going to take a few minutes to answer frequently asked questions about this project, in case you two have been wondering about these and you need to know more about the vision behind this project, which is always kind of fun to think back after the book is already done.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the big question animating this project is: can Christians today read the great classics of Greco-Roman pagan literature for spiritual formation and growth in the virtues?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems kind of surprising to some, but yes, we can read the pagans as Christians.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, even in the late Roman Empire, there were Christian readers like Augustine and Boethius among the most famous who did this.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: But reading the classics as Christians requires differently reading differently than perhaps most of us are used to doing.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so my book, just as this podcast as well, is about reading the classics as Christians.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: The why, the how, and to the lesser extent, the when.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the focus of the book in particular in looking at Greco-Roman classics.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so this exercise is equal parts intellectual and spiritual.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Our bodies are what we eat, but our minds are what we consume as well.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: And over the past few years, we've seen a number of really good books on the value of literature in nourishing our minds and souls, developing the practice of reading not just the Bible, but everything else that we read for spiritual formation.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the Greco-Roman classics generally get left out of these discussions.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there are so many really good books on reading medieval and modern literature as Christians, but not so much about antiquity.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, we're missing something important when we leave out antiquity from these conversations.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: You see, almost 2,000 years ago, as Christianity was first beginning to spread in the ancient Mediterranean world, the gospel came to believers who had grown up reading and hearing the great works of pagan literature and seeing the pagan gods everywhere around in their world.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Just think, they were in literature, public and private art, even on coins and more.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the joy in encountering Jesus and learning of his love for all sinful humanity stood out particularly starkly against the cruelty of the pagan worldview that we see so often in the pagan myths, like the story of Tantalus.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And these early Christians too could see hints of truth and spiritual longing for salvation in these myths.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so in my book, in 20 short chapters, I introduce readers to one or two different ancient authors and their key works.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I offer three interrelated reasons for Christians today to read the pagan classics for spiritual formation.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: First, read like C.S.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Lewis to be surprised by joy.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Second, read to understand the world of the Bible and the earliest Christians.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: And third, read for character formation.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is time Christians rediscovered the benefits of reading the great works of Greco-Roman classical literature as Christians.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So one question: why did you want to write this book?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: What is your motive or purpose in writing it?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, as I mentioned, this is a golden age of reading guides for Christians.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we've seen so many new books on this topic over the past few years about reading well and especially what this means for Christians.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like to read well as Christians?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And on a related note, this is the golden age of classical Christian education.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: But I have yet to see a book in this genre of guides for Christians on reading the classics that focuses on the original classics of the Greco-Roman variety.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I see a real need here that my book is hopefully going to fill, the need to show the joy and the benefit of reading Greco-Roman literature for Christians.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Next question.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So who is my intended reader?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like who is my primary audience and perhaps secondary audience as well?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a really good question.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I try to think of specific people I know when I write.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case, the primary audience are probably teachers, professors, and students of classical Christian education, both uh at the high school level and at the collegiate level.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: These are people who love God and they delight in the mission of pursuing truth, goodness, and beauty through education and reading.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And this book gives them the tools for doing so in reading the Greco-Roman classics.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, needless to say, perhaps, if you know me, you know that I homeschool and I love the homeschooling community.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And included in that original primary audience for my book are homeschoolers.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been a joy to see my sixth grade son reading this book and enjoying it so much.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, my secondary audience is people in the pews, so pastors and thoughtful Christians who just enjoy reading and the life of the mind and are wondering how they might learn from the Greco-Roman classics.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, my intended readers love reading, but perhaps they have no formal training in the Greco-Roman classics.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe they feel a little scared of branching out into unfamiliar periods of literature, which is very true and common for non-academic lovers of literature.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no shame in saying that many educated people, including Christians, feel like they need to appreciate Homer or Herodotus or Pindar, but it can feel daunting at first read.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So perhaps you want to read more widely, you want to be a better reader and a more thoughtful one of both the classics and of the Bible.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be seen also as a thoughtful individual.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: And for some readers like this, there is the practical importance of being prepared to teach courses, whether high school or college, or leading discussions on the text covered in this book.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that the introductions that I provide to the various authors will help these readers in achieving these goals.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what problem, issue, or obstacle do my readers face that perhaps prevents them from getting to the point where they want to be?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really good question.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And one practical issue is that most colleges, even CCCUs these days, do not have classics departments.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: And most high schools, except some classical Christian schools, do not offer Latin or Greek.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so for many people, there is a lack of opportunity to read these texts and study them in detail.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: When I was in high school and college, I had the privilege of studying the Greco-Roman classics and studying Greek and Latin.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Those were my majors, first in undergrad, and then my PhDs in classics, which means I spent most of those years studying the languages.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: But for many readers today, this is not an opportunity that they've had, even if they wanted to pursue those studies.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've never had a class on a certain topic, but have found yourself interested in it, what do you do?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that my book is a good starting point for these kinds of readers who would like to get a basic introduction, and then they're off to the races on their own.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then for other readers, there's fear.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's been surprising for me as a classicist to meet so many people who admit a fear of reading older literature.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: There is this assumption that it would just be too difficult.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: The jokes about it's all Greek to me are not just about the study of Greek language, but I've heard people make the same comment about Greek literature and translation.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to remove this fear and show the approachable nature of Greek literature and the beauty and benefit of reading it specifically as Christians, which I think will help these readers to remove their fear as well.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, as I've mentioned, this book is directly aligned to my area of expertise.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've spent the past quarter century, which is kind of crazy to think.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm old, um, studying the Greco-Roman classics and reading many, actually, virtually all of the texts I discuss in this book in their original languages.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: But more important beyond my academic credentials is my love for God and for his church.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I came to Christ at age 30, and ever since I've found myself reading these texts differently, seeing new insights in them as a Christian.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I have found myself also understanding the early Christians who knew these stories much better.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to remind my readers that we share the same goals, and ultimately the goal in reading classical literature is to grow in our knowledge and love for God, for his word, and his people.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what makes me care about this topic?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, for Christians, reading is not optional.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity is a religion of the book, but in addition to the book, the Bible, the Christian life is a bookish and intellectual life.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I want to equip Christians to love this aspect of their faith life in an age where there is so much destruction, distraction, and confusion.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: And on occasion, I've heard Christians remark that maybe ancient literature is just not relevant for them.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why should Christians even bother reading something the pagans wrote?
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is an important concern because it's reflected in the absence of classics departments in the vast majority of CCCUs.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I hope that we're seeing the tide turn when it comes to this erroneous posture.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Classical education, again, is blossoming now more than I've ever seen in my lifetime.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And my book is very much trying to help both those immersed in the classical education circles and those outside of them who would just like to read well as Christians.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So what makes my book unique?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is a book about reading the Greco-Roman classics as Christians.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And again, the focus is on reading antiquity as Christians, not just to understand antiquity better, but to understand our faith better.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a survey of Greco-Roman classics that will give you a glimpse not only of how you can read these texts today, which is something that Christians like Lewis and Tolkien had done so well, but also how the earliest Christians thought of them.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that my readers will see clearly connections between the Bible and its literary and cultural ancient context and their own world, their own life.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that my readers will feel equipped to read more.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Say, maybe you've never read Homer and you read about Homer in this book.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that you will feel equipped to pick up Homer and enjoy the epics for yourself.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope that you will just enjoy a reading life that is richer and more flourishing.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that includes your reading of the Bible.