Latest / If I'm Being Honest: Straight Talk About Book Publishing & Promotion / Why Authors Have More Power Than Ever with Michael Larson

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Why Authors Have More Power Than Ever with Michael Larson · If I'm Being Honest: Straight Talk About Book Publishing & Promotion

• 0:10
  Joel: Hey everybody, welcome to If I'm Being Honest.
• 0:13
  Joel: I'm your host, Joel Pitney, and today we are bringing a special summer episode.
• 0:19
  Joel: It's an interview that I did with the legendary literary agent Michael Larson, who's also known as the founder of the San Francisco Writers Conference, where I've had the pleasure of getting to hang out with Michael several times.
• 0:31
  Joel: This is an interview that I recorded several uh years ago, but it's still as relevant as ever.
• 0:37
  Joel: And while I'm on my summer vacation, uh whitewater rafting down the Green River in Utah, uh, we wanted to share this interview with y'all.
• 0:46
  Joel: So again, it's a few years old, but it's as relevant as ever.
• 0:50
  Joel: I highly recommend everybody tune in to hear what Michael has to say about the current and future state of publishing.
• 0:59
  Joel: All right, hey, everybody.
• 1:00
  Joel: My name is Joel Pitney.
• 1:01
  Joel: I'm the founder of Launch My Book, and I am very excited for this video interview today.
• 1:08
  Joel: Uh, we have Michael Larson, who to me is a legend in the in the writing industry.
• 1:15
  Joel: Um, Michael is probably best known for this really awesome book here.
• 1:21
  Joel: And I know I'm holding up an old edition with an old cover, but this book is called How to Write a Book Proposal.
• 1:27
  Joel: Um, it was recommended to me by a friend when I was in the process of writing a book proposal.
• 1:31
  Joel: And I read it, as you can tell, cover to cover, and I implemented all the advice that he put in here, and I got a book deal, which was really cool.
• 1:41
  Joel: Um, and so I'm sure he's heard thousands of stories like that over the years.
• 1:45
  Joel: Um, and so uh I also had a chance to meet Michael at the San Francisco Writers Conference, which is a conference that he founded.
• 1:52
  Joel: What year was that, Michael?
• 1:54
  Joel: 70, I'm sorry, oh three, 2003.
• 1:57
  Joel: 2003.
• 1:58
  Joel: He founded the started the San Francisco Writer Conference, which has become one of the the longest running and and sort of most well-known writers' conferences in the country, maybe if not the world.
• 2:08
  Joel: Um, it was my first time attending the event, and I got to meet Michael.
• 2:11
  Joel: And so um I asked him to come on the show and and and share some of his wisdom with everybody.
• 2:19
  Joel: Um, before we dive in, I want to say a few more things about Michael.
• 2:22
  Joel: He's not only the author of How to Write a Book Proposal, um, he I'm gonna read here a little bit.
• 2:27
  Joel: So he he also wrote a book called How to Get a Literary Agent, now in its third edition.
• 2:31
  Joel: He wrote Gorilla Marketing for Right for Writers, 100 Weapons for Selling Your Work.
• 2:37
  Joel: Um, and he also wrote the the worry the worry bead book, the world's oldest and easiest ways to beat stress.
• 2:45
  Joel: Um, so that's kind of what he's done on the on the writing advice um uh nonfiction side.
• 2:52
  Joel: Then also it looks like you've also written a series of with your late wife Elizabeth, co-authored the the Painted Lady Ladies series about Victorian houses.
• 3:04
  Joel: Um uh and done a lot of other cool things.
• 3:08
  Joel: And when Michael sent me his bio, uh, which I've just sort of read from a little bit before the author interview, there's one thing that really stuck out to me.
• 3:17
  Joel: Um he uh his first line is he's an author coach who loves helping writers reach their goals by adding value to their readers' lives.
• 3:25
  Joel: He's especially eager to offer free consulting to gent to writers about books for change.
• 3:30
  Joel: And that stuck out to me because uh Michael is in a, I can already, I can just tell by how he is, he's so generous with his advice.
• 3:39
  Joel: He's had this illustrious career um as a writer and a writing coach and a literary agent and all these different things, and yet he he gives so much of his life to help people, big and small, beginners to advance to uh achieve their dreams of of uh writing, becoming professional writers and having a career in writing.
• 3:58
  Joel: So I am absolutely thrilled to have him on the show.
• 4:01
  Joel: So welcome, Michael.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for asking me.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think I should leave now while we're ahead.
• 4:07
  Joel: I oh yeah, that's great.
• 4:12
  Joel: So um so I've got a few questions and and I I kind of want to just pick your brain about a few things, but um, I'm I kind of want to start big.
• 4:20
  Joel: And the thing that really when you and I spoke a few weeks ago at the writers conference, um, you said something that really caught my eye.
• 4:28
  Joel: So, you know, Michael, you are someone who has made a career of helping people to get book deals with traditional publishers.
• 4:37
  Joel: People can read your book, learn how to write a book proposal, learn how to query an agent, learn, learn how to approach publishers and actually get a traditional publisher to publish their book.
• 4:46
  Joel: And yet, when you and I were talking, you were saying that you think the future of publishing is more along the self-publishing route.
• 4:52
  Joel: And I wanted to ask you a little bit more about A, did I get that wrong?
• 4:58
  Joel: And B, if I did get it right, I want to know a little bit more about why you feel that way.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, well, um, you know, and that at the heart of my belief is the fact that now is the best time ever to be a writer.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the reasons, one of the many reasons for that is it's easier and faster to get your work done yourself.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um big publishers are having significant problems with new writers.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's they're so large that it's really difficult for new writers to break in.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: Certainly is one of the big five.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's easier with medium-sized houses, and the smaller the house, the easier it is to get published.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a limit to what publishers can do, uh, any size house, certainly with a new book.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, most new books do not sell by first-time authors, that just doesn't happen.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, one of the key elements to keep in mind is that it takes three books to build an audience for your work.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: So you've got to keep writing books that sell each other.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: With a series of standalone books, related books that sell each other.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's it, that's a key piece.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um I uh it it's becoming easier and easier to control every aspect of the of the business, the editorial aspect, uh the publishing aspect, and and uh selling even selling books directly to readers.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the future.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's author, it's publisher, uh, where you control it all, control all the rights, uh, and um you build a career by owning everything, by owning the media you use, by owning your own website with your name on it, uh, by owning a podcast, your videos, uh blog, whatever you do.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: So it's all yours, and you're continually harvesting email addresses.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a really powerful thing.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: So you're controlling your audience.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the the two fundamental things writers need to do to succeed today are first write books that readers love.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: And we can talk about how to make sure that happens.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: Write books that readers love, um, and then be as devoted to their readers as they are to their writing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh that that's a crucial piece, serving your readers as many ways as you can, online and off.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um so um that that's a start on the subject.
• 7:10
  Joel: No, that's great.
• 7:10
  Joel: That's great.
• 7:11
  Joel: And there's so much in that.
• 7:12
  Joel: And I guess, I guess what value, you know, you're saying it's getting harder and harder for readers, uh, writers to break into the publishing world, traditional publishing world, the with the big publishing houses.
• 7:25
  Joel: Right.
• 7:25
  Joel: Is there still I guess, you know, if you're someone who's starting off as a writer and you may not have a big platform yet, you may not have harvested that generated and grown that audience of readers, right?
• 7:38
  Joel: What pathway do you think is preferable for someone?
• 7:40
  Joel: Do you think it's to to go out there and and focus first on building that audience?
• 7:45
  Joel: Um or do you think there's still value in trying to get the publishing deal?
• 7:50
  Joel: What do you how do you kind of think about that?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think it's important.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh again, the the key piece here is books that raise love and being devoted to the your readers.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to build a community of readers.
• 8:02
  unknown: Okay.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's not something a publisher can do for you.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to do it yourself.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: It but it's a lifetime investment in your career.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: If you're writing books that your readers love, they're with you forever as long as you keep writing them.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: Even if you have to change, segue, maybe write something a little bit different, you can you'll you'll bring your readers with you.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: So uh um, I mean that that's uh just you know, getting getting building this community of readers is essential.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: And you do that with small work.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: When you're starting up your career, you can write other short stories or or articles or or do a blog or podcast.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: Again, one of the many reasons why now is the best time ever to be a writer is that there's more ways to reach people than ever for free around the world.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you and and that's one way to look, have that perspective.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: You're you're writing really because of the internet, you're writing for the world of readers.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: 5.5 billion people uh are are connected online, not only speaking English, but we're also in the age of instant translation.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: So that's also happening.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: So uh um it's it's about building community and and that that's part of the investment you make in your career.
• 9:02
  Joel: Well, that's interesting.
• 9:03
  Joel: I mean, I when I talk to people, I talk to a lot of aspiring, you know, people who are first-time writers, they come to me asking for advice.
• 9:10
  Joel: And I tend to, I tend to think, I tell, I tell them, it's funny, whether you're going traditional publishing or self-publishing, I kind of feel like the pathway is still the same.
• 9:20
  Joel: You have to build an audience.
• 9:22
  Joel: You can't, you can't just think, oh, I'm gonna self-publish and hope that it'll get discovered.
• 9:28
  Joel: And you need to grow that audience.
• 9:31
  Joel: And if you want to go traditional publishing, in most cases, it's gonna be publishers and publishers, publishers are less and less likely to give deals to people who don't bring in their own audience of readers, right?
• 9:42
  Joel: Well, so one way or the other, you have to start building a community.
• 9:45
  Joel: But anyway.
• 9:46
  Joel: Right.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_03: No, well, but it depends also on the side, uh, depends on a couple of things, goals and and and and and and uh uh the kind of book you're writing.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: For example, the small the house you'll be happy with, the easier it is to get published.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: So small houses are mission-driven, and there's a whole mood, the literary landscape is being receded by uh small, uh independent, mission-driven, diverse uh publishers empowered by technology.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: And they're easier to reach ever, the whole world of them online, offline as well.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's amazing.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's happening.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: It is publishing is becoming decentralized.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: So there's more ways to get published than ever.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so you need to be clear about what your publishing goals are.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Uh ideally, you want the best possible editor, publisher, and deal if you're going to have a publisher.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, depending on the author and the and the and the and the book, that that might very well be a small house.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Uh so um, but goals are extremely important.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, having clear literary goals, what you want to achieve with your writing, uh, publishing goals, what what you want to happen with your books, and also personal goals, that they're in harmony and there's balance there.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: These are all important and being clear about those.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: Your goals determine what you write and how you write it and how you promote it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you want to be a best-selling author, then the only kind of book you can write is bestsellers.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that's pretty straightforward.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: You just find out, you know, there's more ways to learn what you need to know than ever.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, writers can uh learn from published writers in their field what they do and how they do it.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's all out there.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's one of the great things about it.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: They all have websites, you can see what they're doing, you can build relationships with them.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_03: So this is all wonderful.
• 11:20
  Joel: So that's great.
• 11:22
  Joel: That's great.
• 11:23
  Joel: And I wanted to kind of zero in on something you said earlier, which um is something that I remember from the conversation you and I had together.
• 11:31
  Joel: You talk about that it takes three books to succeed.
• 11:34
  Joel: And I I love that, you know, because I feel like whether or not it's technically true, and and and and my guess is it is, it changes an author's mindset to be thinking long term and not short term, which I think is really important.
• 11:49
  Joel: A lot of people I talk to tend to think that you kind of write a book and then it either succeeds or not.
• 11:54
  Joel: Whereas so I'd love to hear more about what you mean by that and why that's the case.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: Just uh um uh okay, again, this notion of writing more than one book, it it people have to love you.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's if people read one of your books and they love it, it's an opportunity to build a community around that book.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: So um and if you keep doing that, you will inevitably build uh a community.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: And indeed, uh I think two aspects the the two most important aspects of reading a book are first of all that you love reading it, and then you love sharing your passion for that book.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: So the challenge is to make your readers your best marketers because they love sharing their passion with books.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's what books are all about.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Just like movies, you know, it's all word of mouth.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And now today, because of technology, we have word of mouth.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you you you you have access to your readers' communities.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's fabulous.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: They're becoming your best marketers.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: So, but you got to keep giving them what they want and and staying in touch with them.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um sharing your passions, sharing your cats, sharing whatever you're interested in.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And not just, you know, it's it's information you create and information uh that you you share, that you curate.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: So um that's the key piece.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh um there's a book called The Clue Train Manifesto, and and one of its points is that uh markets are a conversation.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: So it's about this continuing conversation that you have your readers and and them being engaged with you.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just about putting a whole bunch of numbers up on social media um and uh if they're not engaged with you.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: And and there's an agents will look at that, not just numbers, but what what kind of conversations you're having with your readers.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's important because these are the people who are passionate about you and your books and will buy whatever you're doing, classes, whatever.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: And that's something we haven't been able to get to, but there's more ways to make money from your ideas, certainly with nonfiction, uh, than ever.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's another reason why it's the best time ever to be a writer.
• 14:00
  Joel: And that's thank you, Michael.
• 14:02
  Joel: That's great.
• 14:03
  Joel: And what I'm curious, what makes you say three books?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I not not my idea.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: I I I saw that online from a reliable source, and I don't remember the name of it.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: But uh it's it's it's it's gone through the system.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I I you know, uh Don Mosson editor in New York, he uh an agent in New York used to say it takes five books.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, and I think maybe the internet has speeded that up.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I fucking this this this this whole notion of community is so important.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: People need community more than ever.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: That's something that COVID proved.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's not something, you know, AI is transforming the industry, but I don't see how AI builds a community.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's your personal connection with your readers.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: That's a crucial piece.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, give them what they want and they're yours for life.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the example I I uh use is is Colleen Huber.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: She's the perfect uh example of uh writing books that readers love and also being connected to them.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: She has like 2.5 billion views on TikTok, whatever.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's just phenomenal.
• 15:03
  Joel: And can you just tell everyone who uh what kind of books does she write?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: She writes uh uh young adult romances, new adult uh uh novels, uh books for young people.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and that's the TikTok audience, which is her particular audience, it's not everybody's audience.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: And that's super TikTok in general, it's skews young.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but uh uh she's a remarkable woman.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_03: She was born to do what she does.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: And she started off, you know, writing books in a trailer, wasn't always able to pay all her bills, she started off with nowhere and self-published the first books.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And then they just took on a life of their own.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_03: This is a fundamental thing.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: You can't stop a book that delivers well enough from succeeding because of the internet.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: So it's unstoppable.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Write a book that your readers love, no matter who publishes it, whether you do it or or random house does it, whatever.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's that's certainly a key piece.
• 15:56
  Joel: I love that.
• 15:57
  Joel: Write a book that your readers love, no matter who publishes it, and it'll be unstoppable.
• 16:02
  Joel: I love that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: No question.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: No question.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Readers want to love books, let's be clear.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they take the trouble to buy a book or get it from the library or whatever, but they want to read it, right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_03: They want their investment in time.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: Time is the most valuable asset we have.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to waste it.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I must say that's a a challenge for writers because I think a lot of readers are less patient than they might have been, you know, certainly in the past.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: If you're writing a book to entertain, then you need to start doing that on page one.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's extremely important.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: So, well, but I s you know, I'm happy to look at you know new writers' work, and I you know, I just uh they haven't gotten there yet.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: And and uh that takes craft and it takes early readers, which is something we should discuss at some point.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: So uh you have to make sure your work's 100% before you submit it to anybody or or self-publish it, either way.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:54
  Joel: Either way.
• 16:54
  Joel: Yeah.
• 16:55
  Joel: You've got to go right.
• 16:56
  Joel: It you've got to meet the even if you're self-publishing, you need to have the quality standards that would make it compelling to a traditional publisher as well.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: You need to get a developmental editor, a line editor, a copy editor, um, and and a proofreader.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um if you're going to be professional about it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I mean, certainly, you know, if you're if you only want to write one book, you've got one book and you want to get out, or you want to write different kinds of books, poetry, children's books, adult books, then you're certainly better off self-publishing.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: You don't build a career, there's no three books that sell each other.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you're better off self-publishing.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: But if you want to write a series of books, you know, it's it's about that balance that you want to achieve between writing for yourself and writing for the marketplace.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you'll be happy earning no money just writing what you want to write, well, that's wonderful.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: You can write whatever you want.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to worry about it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's how successful you want to be as a writer and and what the expectations for those kinds of writers are.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's kind of balancing writing for yourself and writing for the marketplace.
• 17:54
  Joel: Oh, that's really interesting.
• 17:55
  Joel: Yeah, I mean, a lot of people hear that and they're like, oh, well, you know, are we selling out writing, writing just for the masses?
• 18:00
  Joel: But I tend to think of it as more of a conversation.
• 18:03
  Joel: You know, as a writer, you kind of you're you're constantly engaging with the world and the people around you and trying to play your role in that conversation.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, okay, yes.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I uh the first thing I've got these superpowers I think the writers have.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: And the first one is make uh you're writing a labor of love.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's really hugely important.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: You've got to love what you're doing, it's your life.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you want readers to love your work, so you have to put your love into it.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: That that's irresistible and contagious.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: So uh it's not like you know giving up your soul to be successful.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's not what I would recommend.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: You want to balance uh writing what you love and what readers love to read if you want to be successful.
• 18:48
  Joel: Yeah, no, that's interesting.
• 18:49
  Joel: I mean, I I I can relate to that personally because I do uh I do many things, but I also ghostwrite for people, which means I will write a book for someone else.
• 18:58
  Joel: It gets published uh published under the name, it's their ideas or their story.
• 19:02
  Joel: And I find that I fall in love with that project.
• 19:06
  Joel: Oh, but that's wonderful.
• 19:07
  Joel: And that's how it works for me.
• 19:08
  Joel: It that's the only way it is successful, is if I find a way to, even if I don't start off that way, I find a way to really engage with the writing and I love it.
• 19:17
  Joel: I just love the idea of telling a story for someone, even if I never get personal credit for it.
• 19:22
  Joel: Um and that comes through.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sure.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this notion of stories, you know, uh human beings are fundamentally storytelling creatures.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, imagine in the caves 70,000 years ago, people sitting around a fire hearing stories, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_03: Of the hunt or whatever.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: So uh we need stories.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Barry Lopez, a writer, once said, we sometimes a person needs a story more than food to stay alive.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and indeed, I think one of the big challenges in the world right now is we we need a new story uh that that unites us, that overcomes the beliefs that separate us.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have that story yet.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_03: We need it badly.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_03: So the world is open to those stories.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: Any stories that brings people together, that makes us appreciate that we're all members of the human family.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: And we need each other.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, I I don't remember.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody said, you know, we we may have arrived on uh on different ships, but we're all in the same boat now.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh that's a crucial thing to keep in mind when you're writing.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh at their best, books should be a service to their readers, should enable them to appreciate things, understand things, people and situations, and um so I mean that's one of the great opportunities writers have.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: I think the greatest opportunity they have is to do books that are gonna make the world better.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's the thing.
• 20:41
  Joel: That's beautiful.
• 20:42
  Joel: I love that.
• 20:44
  Joel: Um you had mentioned your superpowers, and um you had told me so you're right, you have written andor writing a new book, is that right?
• 20:54
  Joel: Yes, sir.
• 20:55
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:55
  Joel: And that's the can I talk about that?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if I can, but you can.
• 21:02
  Joel: Well, so because you shared it with me, writing success guaranteed, yeah, right.
• 21:06
  Joel: And superpowers for creating a career, which I thought it's a compelling to and I would you be willing to share a little bit about the the superpowers?
• 21:14
  Joel: I mean, you already talked about one, which is writing is a labor of love, right?
• 21:17
  Joel: And that being kind of first and foremost.
• 21:19
  Joel: But I'd be maybe you could share a little bit more.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the second one is having goals that you're committed to achieving, and I spoke about goals, but payment's a really important part of that.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um uh to succeed today, writers have to do more and know more than ever.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but the good news is there's more ways to learn what you need to know than ever.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's a ton of free stuff on the internet and offline as writers' organizations.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: There's all kinds of ways to learn and to become part of the literary community.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, as as writers, you're part of the community of the book.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody knows and cares about reading and writing, and that's wonderful.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: So you want to be is involved with.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: That community is possible.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: Every field, for example, whether it's histories or mysteries, has its own combination of events, organizations, media, influencers, and practitioners.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: And certainly in big and mid-sized houses, they want writers who are involved with both with the literary community and with their field.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: So that's really important.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then the third thing is craft.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: So every word's gotta be right.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Every word's an audition for the next word.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Again, because of the, I think in part because of the speed of technology, people expect increasingly in instant gratification.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I think they're less willing to give books the chance they they need.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: So funny.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right, that's how people do it, right?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Even look, I about three writers have come up to me and said, I go into a bookstore, I pick up a novel, I read the first line, and if it doesn't excite me, I put it back.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: And the three writers have told me that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So uh um, you know, but it depends on the kind of if you're writing literary work, um, then that's different.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like people, I think, are more patient.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's more about uh style, craft, um and the vision of the book.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so uh nature of what you're writing.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh four is making the world aware of yourself and uh that's building communities, it's building your your your credibility and and your brand.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's really important.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: Rusty Sheldon, as a publicist, says you should you should create a personal brand, a brand built around yourself.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um so you'd have a website with your name on it, or some variation of it, if you have to, uh, that's yours.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: And just everything you put on there is yours.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you're trying to get as many people as come to the come to your site as possible.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: All the things you own, your blog, your promotional uh uh uh uh assets.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that's really important.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um and making some visible online by just contributing.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um contributing to blogs in your field, um uh offering to write posts, uh offering to have people post on your blog if you're doing one.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um Stephanie uh uh uh Chandler, who runs the Nonfiction Authors Association, a wonderful group for nonfiction writers, um so she says you should have like one to three pri primarily primary foundational content, forms of content.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: Blog, website, uh YouTube, something that you enjoy doing.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a key piece about get uh communicating to people.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's gotta be something you enjoy doing and can do well, I could do consistently, I can do creatively.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: It'll show it'll become apparent that that's not the case.
• 25:02
  Joel: So Yeah, that's can I say something on that, Michael?
• 25:06
  Joel: You know, because we uh we talk to people uh all day long who come to us and they want to help promote their books and grow their platform, etc.
• 25:15
  Joel: And a lot of people have been told, hey, just do social media.
• 25:18
  Joel: You know, and and always I always tell people, well, you have you have to find the thing you like to do.
• 25:25
  Joel: If you like to write, maybe you'll write articles.
• 25:28
  Joel: If you like to get on video and just kind of do what you and I are doing and talk to people, maybe that's what you need to do.
• 25:34
  Joel: But whatever it is, you have to love it.
• 25:36
  Joel: Otherwise, you won't, like you said, it won't be apparent, but and you also won't have the energy to sustain it.
• 25:42
  Joel: Um, because it takes, you have to keep going for a long time and you have to actually enjoy it.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, again, there's more ways to reach readers than ever.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, people who become very uh successful with newsletters, for example.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: So there's different kinds of things.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, we're sitting here trying to give one size fits all advice, but the reality, every writer's uh writer and every writer is different.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_03: Every book's a book and every book is different.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to put together, you gotta trust your instincts and your common sense and do whatever makes sense to you, regardless of what anybody, including me, says.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's gotta it's gotta work for you uh consistently over the long term.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a fundamental way to look at your future.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: You look at over the long term, it's it's a long-term kind of thing.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Seth Coden's a very well-known blogger and best-selling author.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: He says the best time to start promoting a book is three years before it comes out.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, if you're building a community of fans and you're improving your writing and getting ready to get published, uh it can take a while.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: It depends on what you're writing and how how much you bring to it initially.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_03: If you're starting out as a journalist, then you've got a head start on writers of just learning their craft.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: So it depends on the situation, what you're writing.
• 26:50
  Joel: That's beautiful.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, and the the fifth one is is collaboration.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, uh publishing and writing your team sports.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: You may sit in front of a computer and just write by yourself, but that's the only part of it you have to do alone.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, uh this it's crucial that you get feedback as you write from a writing group, either when you start or when you join uh through meetup, or there's different ways to find uh book bookstores, libraries, uh, shut up and write to a group that gets together at different places.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: And there's more ways to connect with writers than ever.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, on and off.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's wonderful.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: So so as you write, you want feedback.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: And then after you finish writing, I think it's essential to build a community of three kinds of readers.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: Start not now, don't wait till you finish writing.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: But you want readers who know writing and give you feedback just on the writing, even if they're not experts on the kind of book you're writing.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you want feedback from people who are experts on the kind of book you're writing, published authors or teachers, or maybe if you can get a books out of a librarian, whatever.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: And most important of all, uh potential book buyers.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, who are the people in terms of the range of age and sex and interests that you want to buy the book?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Try it out on that range of people.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um so to make sure it works.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, one of the reasons the chicken soup books work is that they had a panel of 40 readers who would grade every story on a scale of one to ten, and they would just use the nine and a halves and tens.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe you should consider having readers grade your work on a scale of one to ten, every moment of impact on the work as a whole.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: You gotta make sure it works, and that's good, then that's free.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, you have the opportunity now, uh in part because of the internet, of making sure your your books work before you put them out into the world.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: Although that's the way it should be.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um and agents and editors can tell instantly whether, you know, how well something is crafted or or conceived.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: And indeed, I mean it's one of the reasons why um uh query letters are really have to be spot on if you're approaching a publisher.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um they may not get past the first line.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: There's an obvious mistake in it.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh well, whatever you submit's gotta be i impeccable.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then sixes, uh keep publishing books.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mentioned that we discussed four, doing three books.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: So but you gotta keep putting them in.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's maybe it's more than that.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: It could depend on you and the book and whatever.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: But the point is you're looking at this as a long-term thing and you're building a backlog, an inventory.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: So these books can keep selling on the web.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: If you control them, they're on there, they're selling, and you'll keep attracting new writers to them, new readers to them, and sell more books to new readers.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: This is all good.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: You're building your own backlist.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: So keep selling.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're successful enough, agents and editors will find you, or you can always sell to them if you want, or maybe have an imprint at a publishing house, whatever.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um so um seven, what's seven?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Seven is uh, well, eight is having a uh a business.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: Sharing your passion for the value of your book.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, what was he thinking?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: So the publication of a book is an opportunity for you to make friends um and and gather new fans.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: And you do that by just communicating.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, if if uh the one of the key things about having a book published is you want to be ready for that opportunity.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: So uh um there's let's be clear, there's four million books published a year.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: Amazon does over a million of them.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: So uh making your way through that is extremely difficult.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: And for anybody, for big houses as well.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: So uh um you want to be ready for that.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: You want to be able to, on publication, for example, and and publishers try to give books a head start by generating as many sales as possible on publication when books from stores or reviews start to appear.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: So uh you want to be as visible as many ways as possible on publication.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not a force that you turn on because you need it.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: You have to build it over time.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be ready to take advantage of the opportunity of publication.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um at big houses, if something doesn't sell in a week or two, they're liable to just go on to the next book.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh um but again, this should be something that you enjoy doing.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's an opportunity to meet new people and be and create long-term relationships.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um eight is is uh developing a business that supports your writing.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: So uh again, I spoke before about writers controlling everything, but I I think it's important to think of yourself, even if you don't do it all yourself, to think of yourself as a business person, running a business.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh you know, have goals for it and uh uh don't uh uh sacrifice your values to reach your goals, but to have a business that uh ideally uh makes you enough income to uh to free you to write.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um again, uh you know, uh nonfiction writers have more opportunities than novelists do.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they can sell their work in more different ways, as books, as uh uh workbooks, as uh um as videos, as audios, there's more courses, consulting, yeah.
• 32:04
  Joel: Exactly, courses, consulting, workshops, speaking, yeah.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Online and all.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: So, but even so, if you're a novelist and you can teach about how to write or or or or do something in your particular field, uh um help help help writers like yourself uh write and get published, uh whether it's fantasies or whatever, I mean that's that's a way to earn income and build your uh uh readership at the same time.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: So all the things you do to make money are also promoting you.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: And again, it's all filtering through uh an ever more powerful website.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_03: And nine, I just changed since you saw that list, sir.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay, good.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um be your best self.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: And there's three ways to do that.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: One is to uh find balance between your personal and professional life, uh, and that's really important.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh uh, you know, uh your career should be fulfilling for you.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so you need to balance your your personal and professional life.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: And you also uh uh want to serve the community of the book.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Think of how you can be of help to your literary community by being by participating in events or creating event, which also promotes you and your work.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: And last, writing books that can make a difference.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: You know, uh and I spoke about that before.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: And the the tenth one, the last one, is uh find joy in your journey.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's important.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: You you're you're entitled to have a good time and to celebrate little things like a good review or your work being accepted, getting praise from people, uh, sales.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um so uh you should celebrate that.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's really important.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: The celebration is to help keep you going.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: So uh those are the superpowers.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you make them unique.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: They're uniquely yours because of the devotion, the commitment that you bring to them, because of your skill, your gifts, your ability to write and communicate.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: So only you have that set of unique ways of exercising, developing your superpowers.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that makes them uniquely yours.
• 34:07
  Joel: So um, Michael, that is so beautiful.
• 34:12
  Joel: And it's what I what I love about talking to you is it's it's just like my experience of reading your book.
• 34:20
  Joel: Um, you have this tremendous sense of optimism and realism woven into one.
• 34:26
  Joel: And you're not BSing people when you say you can be a successful writer, which is a very but you're also very realistic about how challenging that can be and and the real commitment that it takes to make that happen.
• 34:39
  Joel: They kind of you gotta kind of be one-pointed about it.
• 34:42
  Joel: Um, but again, talking to you, reading your books, you really do see that there's a pathway there for anybody who really wants to do it.
• 34:49
  Joel: Um and that's amazing.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um well, but you know, in a in a way that's it's it's it reflects what's going on in other uh uh creative fields.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: More and more different kinds of creative people are taking the work into their own hands.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um in fact, somebody mentioned you know Taylor Swift to me the other day, how she owns her old old stuff and and recycles it and you know, does it, whatever.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: So, but you know, because of the internet, creative people, artists, musicians, whatever, are are doing their own thing online.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_03: And this is all wonderful.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: So uh, you know, and I and publishing, by the way, has has fared better in the in the what's happening with me uh internet and the web uh uh than other industries.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, music certainly had far greater challenges, but the publishing goes on.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: People still want books.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh um and uh um it's it's it's a great time to be doing what you're doing.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah.
• 35:44
  Joel: Well, so I you know, I I I have two two last questions for you.
• 35:49
  Joel: Please, please.
• 35:50
  Joel: One one both quite simple.
• 35:52
  Joel: So the first one is you know, for people who want more of you in their life, what would you what would you recommend is the the one thing they can do for that?
• 36:02
  Joel: What would be the number one thing you'd you'd tell people to do if they want to engage more with you?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: Well, um uh I guess they can write to me at EPML four letters e Edward Paul Michael Larson, EPML at AOL.com, the geezer is p.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um there's a there's a website for my coaching service.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I'm happy to answer questions.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: People can just contact me if they have questions.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: Great and point them in the right direction.
• 36:39
  Joel: And we can we'll share a link associated with this interview that'll have a have a link to your website and everything.
• 36:45
  Joel: Okay, great, great.
• 36:46
  Joel: Yeah.
• 36:48
  Joel: Um well then I so then my last question would be you know, you've you've basically just been giving us gold nuggets of advice for the last half hour.
• 36:56
  Joel: Um, what would be kind of your parting piece of advice for someone um who's uh uh an aspiring author?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: Another name, John Dodds, used to uh give this advice to writers.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: He used to say, if anything can stop you from becoming a writer, let it.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: If nothing can stop you, do it and you'll make it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's truer than ever.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: Best time to be a writer.
• 37:25
  Joel: I love that.
• 37:26
  Joel: Okay.
• 37:26
  Joel: That is a great parting note.
• 37:28
  Joel: So, Michael, I really appreciate you taking the time.
• 37:31
  Joel: Um, it's an it's been an honor to get to know you the last few weeks, and I'm really, really glad we had a chance to talk.
• 37:37
  Joel: And I'm I'm I'm hoping that lots of people will gain um a lot of insight and confidence and inspiration from this.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_03: So as the Indian proverb has it, what is not given is lost.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: True for writers, too.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_04: Beautiful.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much for inviting me.