Latest / Under the Docs / CHAOS: The Manson Murders (2025), MK-ULTRA and Hollywood | Under The Docs 016

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CHAOS: The Manson Murders (2025), MK-ULTRA and Hollywood | Under The Docs 016 · Under the Docs

0:00
Speaker 1: C I A. S. T. D's LSD Manson and five.
0:11
Speaker 2: Under the Dogs, Yeah, under the docks, very baking looks.
0:20
Speaker 1: Could they arise all the shots like the Dogs under
0:24
Speaker 1: the docks? One in the docks, Yeah, under the docks.
0:28
Speaker 3: Shocks.
0:42
Speaker 1: Under the Dogs.
0:54
Speaker 2: Sean Chris paranoid American. This is under the Docks today.
1:00
Speaker 2: Chaos the Manson Murders twenty twenty five film directed by ARLN.
1:05
Speaker 1: Morris, probably butchering the.
1:07
Speaker 2: Name, but this film comes from the book Chaos the
1:12
Speaker 2: Manson Murders from Tom O'Neil, and it explores the murders
1:17
Speaker 2: in a different sense. And since everybody knows this is
1:20
Speaker 2: mind control MKOTRA month, we had to dive into not
1:25
Speaker 2: a classic as far as film wise, but a classic
1:28
Speaker 2: as far as MKOTRA conspiracies and the Manson murders.
1:33
Speaker 4: Plus the book Chaos is a twenty year plus project,
1:38
Speaker 4: so this is sort of og material, even if the
1:41
Speaker 4: documentary itself is fairly new. The research has been going
1:45
Speaker 4: on for over half my lifetime.
1:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he got big on the out there in
1:51
Speaker 2: Tom O'Neal when he went on The Rogan Show, and
1:53
Speaker 2: he went on Rogan and started talking about the book
1:56
Speaker 2: and I think that's where I really set fire and
1:59
Speaker 2: probably inspired whoever Morris put this film together, probably contacted him,
2:04
Speaker 2: inspired him to do that is probably seeing that because
2:06
Speaker 2: I know I didn't hear of it personally until he
2:09
Speaker 2: was on Rogan, which was I think two three years
2:11
Speaker 2: ago or something like that.
2:13
Speaker 4: Well, the show that I do on Tuesday's Live Sink Tank,
2:18
Speaker 4: this particular topic comes up on damn near every single show,
2:22
Speaker 4: and it's one of those things that goes so deep
2:25
Speaker 4: that it's a little bit hard to even think that
2:28
Speaker 4: they would cover the entire thing and roughly an hour
2:30
Speaker 4: and a half like they do in this Chaos documentary.
2:33
Speaker 5: Again twenty years of research.
2:35
Speaker 4: There's so many rabbit holes, man, when you get into
2:37
Speaker 4: the Hollywood aspect, the SRA aspect, the MK Ultra aspect,
2:41
Speaker 4: Charles Manson in himself could warrant for, you know, a
2:45
Speaker 4: multidocumentary series.
2:47
Speaker 5: So this is a this is a crazy one.
2:59
Speaker 1: Plotting the.
3:01
Speaker 2: There's some wild as you alluded to, key claims in this.
3:06
Speaker 2: I'm gonna just start off right away with one of
3:09
Speaker 2: the kind of major claims and I'm gonna connect it
3:12
Speaker 2: later to another claim. But Charles Manson and the Aubrey
3:16
Speaker 2: Free Medical Clinic, his connection after getting out of jail Manson,
3:21
Speaker 2: which according to the film in the book that he
3:25
Speaker 2: did not want to get out right like they specify that,
3:28
Speaker 2: like he was had like a couple more years. He's like,
3:30
Speaker 2: I want to stay in jail, like he was in
3:32
Speaker 2: for seven or eight years or something. He was like
3:34
Speaker 2: willing to stay in there. And then to connect his
3:38
Speaker 2: roots of with the Manson family going to this clinic.
3:42
Speaker 2: And at this clinic they were experimenting with LSD and
3:45
Speaker 2: a lot of like mind control stuff and allegedly may
3:49
Speaker 2: have met something we'll speak a little bit later, Jolly West,
3:53
Speaker 2: who I think plays a significant role in this film.
3:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that this particular clinic was where where you
4:00
Speaker 4: would call Hashbury. This is the Hat Ashbury, which is
4:03
Speaker 4: in crossroads, right, Just these two different the street Hate
4:08
Speaker 4: and the Street of Ashbury, they connect together this one
4:11
Speaker 4: particular spot. There's a clinic there. And like you were mentioning,
4:15
Speaker 4: not only was Manson somehow not going directly to jail
4:19
Speaker 4: over and over again, they were like no, no, no,
4:21
Speaker 4: we need you out in the open world. But he
4:23
Speaker 4: went to this clinic for at least two different reasons.
4:26
Speaker 4: One of those is because it's where he met his
4:28
Speaker 4: parole officers, where they had their weekly meetings. And the
4:31
Speaker 4: other reason is because he had this harem of women
4:34
Speaker 4: that followed him around that I guess were just loaded
4:36
Speaker 4: with STDs literally, and they would go to that particular
4:41
Speaker 4: clinic again, probably just tagged along with him for his
4:44
Speaker 4: weekly parole visit. They'd all just got like their weekly shots,
4:47
Speaker 4: you know, or whatever the hell they were doing to
4:49
Speaker 4: scrape that stuff out of.
4:50
Speaker 1: There, make sure they are still good to go, right.
4:54
Speaker 5: I don't think Manson cared man and to.
4:57
Speaker 2: Like piggyback off a little bit of that claim too,
5:00
Speaker 2: is that the weird thing about that was that he
5:03
Speaker 2: was on parole and that was a violation of his
5:05
Speaker 2: parole to leave I think was Los Angeles County to
5:09
Speaker 2: go into San Francisco the Berkeley area. So that alone
5:14
Speaker 2: was a violation that normally it was me or you
5:16
Speaker 2: would get picked up on that.
5:19
Speaker 4: The clear point that this documentary was making with this
5:22
Speaker 4: one is that he was intentionally not being allowed to
5:27
Speaker 4: hang out in jail. Someone in jail all right between
5:29
Speaker 4: the lines here, someone in jail saw the potential of
5:33
Speaker 4: Charles Manson and said what do we do in waste
5:35
Speaker 4: in this resource inside of prison. This guy could be
5:38
Speaker 4: under MK ulture, he could be a project. So they
5:42
Speaker 4: made sure that he didn't go back in jail, no
5:44
Speaker 4: matter what he did, no matter what he got mixed
5:46
Speaker 4: up in, including murder.
5:48
Speaker 5: They were like, no, no, he's good, just have him
5:50
Speaker 5: come back to the Hushbury Clinic.
5:53
Speaker 1: The second major claim that I'll go off of, and
5:56
Speaker 1: this is huge.
5:57
Speaker 5: Two.
5:57
Speaker 2: This is kind of like, basically to WI It's titled
6:01
Speaker 2: what it's titled, right, the CIA Operation Chaos. Operation Chaos
6:06
Speaker 2: was initiated by the CIA to monitor and disrupt domestic
6:11
Speaker 2: movements during the nineteen sixties. So the hippie movement, We've
6:15
Speaker 2: heard of this kind of infiltration before. I've talked about
6:18
Speaker 2: the cast Sunstein cognitive infiltration, but this is like the
6:21
Speaker 2: roots of it, where this anti war movement, what we
6:25
Speaker 2: would call the hippie movement, the drug movement, whatever you
6:28
Speaker 2: want to label these different movements. They were trying to
6:31
Speaker 2: get into these groups and kind of dictate what they
6:35
Speaker 2: did and kind of change their philosophies or make them
6:38
Speaker 2: look bad.
6:40
Speaker 4: The analogy in this documentary is they bring up FBI's
6:44
Speaker 4: co Intel pro and basically, the FBI is supposed to
6:48
Speaker 4: operate inside the US domestically, and the CIA is supposed
6:52
Speaker 4: to operate internationally. And this is one of the clear
6:55
Speaker 4: examples of the CIA stepping on some toes or just
6:59
Speaker 4: doing their some justification as to how this dealt with
7:03
Speaker 4: international matters, But the truth is that they were just
7:05
Speaker 4: running their own version of Cointel bro And in this
7:09
Speaker 4: brief documentary they sort of point out a couple of
7:13
Speaker 4: the reasons. One of those was, like you said, it
7:15
Speaker 4: was to infiltrate these left wing groups in particular and
7:19
Speaker 4: neutralize them. That was quote, to neutralize them. And this
7:22
Speaker 4: sort of encompassed the Black Panthers and the hippie movement.
7:26
Speaker 4: And there's also some correlation where once Manson started causing
7:31
Speaker 4: all this ruckus and got on TV, and we've got
7:34
Speaker 4: these Manson murders and a cult maybe that is following him,
7:37
Speaker 4: and that there's LSD involved, the CIA tries to rub
7:41
Speaker 4: some of that stink on the hippie movement at large,
7:44
Speaker 4: so that the parents watching a home they see, hey,
7:47
Speaker 4: if you let your kids go to San Francisco and
7:50
Speaker 4: take acid and become part of this hippie movement, they're
7:53
Speaker 4: just going to murder people. They're just going to turn
7:55
Speaker 4: either into Manson himself or they're going to follow some
7:58
Speaker 4: guy like Manson, And that was just playing directly into chaos.
8:03
Speaker 1: Directly into it.
8:04
Speaker 2: And that leads me into that claim of FBI operations
8:08
Speaker 2: against the Black Panthers, where like that was the tactics
8:12
Speaker 2: they were using, and not only their operation, but how
8:17
Speaker 2: it seemed that the murders and they kind of connect
8:20
Speaker 2: in the film that like they were staged to look
8:23
Speaker 2: like the Black Panthers created a lot of these murders.
8:25
Speaker 2: There was Paul Prince, there were certain aspects that were
8:29
Speaker 2: left to They talk about one guy that was shot,
8:34
Speaker 2: not a very prominent Black Panther member. I think it
8:36
Speaker 2: turned out that he was not even in the Black Panthers,
8:38
Speaker 2: but they thought he was associated a prominent Black Panther
8:42
Speaker 2: Bernie I believe his name was, and him getting shot
8:46
Speaker 2: was like the premise of like, hey, we can blame
8:49
Speaker 2: this all now on the Panthers.
8:51
Speaker 1: The actual murders.
8:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's the subtext of racism and helter skelter with
8:57
Speaker 4: Charles Manson, and that they would write the word pig
9:00
Speaker 4: in the blood of the murder scene on the way out,
9:03
Speaker 4: using like a little towel, And it was also supposed
9:05
Speaker 4: to be fomenting this this racial war, and I guess
9:09
Speaker 4: in their mind it was a very real escalation, something
9:12
Speaker 4: that was just going to happen if they just kind
9:15
Speaker 4: of like pushed it over the edge, even though it
9:17
Speaker 4: didn't technically happen the way that they envisioned. Manson he
9:23
Speaker 4: claimed that he was inspired by the Beatles album and
9:28
Speaker 4: that they would listen to the White Album for days
9:30
Speaker 4: on end on these long acid trips, and then they
9:33
Speaker 4: go out and do these murders, and they would sort
9:35
Speaker 4: of use the blood of the murder scene to write
9:38
Speaker 4: lyrics from the Beatles albums, and the one that they
9:40
Speaker 4: stuck with was this Helter Skelter.
9:44
Speaker 2: Which gets me into my next claim from the prosecutor.
9:49
Speaker 1: Writing the book, Vincent Bolglowski.
9:54
Speaker 2: I think that's how you say his name, where he suggested, like,
9:57
Speaker 2: you know, like goes off with this premise of the
9:59
Speaker 2: Beatles murder and Helter Skelter is named of the book,
10:02
Speaker 2: and a claim in this film, and not just this film,
10:06
Speaker 2: but they hone in on it here is that Helter
10:08
Speaker 2: Skelter was written and the whole Manson trial was just
10:14
Speaker 2: like to sell books, like he was painting this picture
10:18
Speaker 2: and making it so extravagant that so he could sell
10:21
Speaker 2: his book that he was writing and had people there
10:24
Speaker 2: writing and taking notes of the trial right when he
10:28
Speaker 2: was having Manson right there, and then all the little
10:31
Speaker 2: extra stuff with the women and Manson, it really like.
10:35
Speaker 1: They played a party, almost as if they were in
10:38
Speaker 1: on it together.
10:40
Speaker 4: I mean, it became a spectacle and almost everyone from
10:44
Speaker 4: every walk of life exploited the Manson murders and some
10:47
Speaker 4: capacity right one of the I don't know if you
10:50
Speaker 4: got this this key point yours. This was just like
10:53
Speaker 4: a small little tidbit, but I didn't know this part that,
10:57
Speaker 4: or at least is what they claim that the Manson
11:01
Speaker 4: murders where that took Sharon Tate right, they go and
11:05
Speaker 4: they break in, and it is probably one of the
11:07
Speaker 4: most famous of all of the Tate LaBianca murders. But
11:10
Speaker 4: the Sharon Tate murder only happened because Manson didn't know
11:14
Speaker 4: that this record producer Terry Melcher moved that. Originally he
11:19
Speaker 4: was trying to take out this guy, Terry Melcher. And
11:21
Speaker 4: when they showed up and they said Hey, you know, Charlie,
11:25
Speaker 4: he's not there. He said, well, just kill anyone that's
11:27
Speaker 4: in the house, and who happened to be in the
11:29
Speaker 4: house was Sharon Tate and for other people, so that
11:32
Speaker 4: the most famous of the Charles Manson murders. According to
11:36
Speaker 4: the some of the research presented in this documentary was
11:38
Speaker 4: kind of done as a mistake. I'm not sure how
11:41
Speaker 4: much I believe or understand that, Yeah, that.
11:46
Speaker 2: They painted the picture too of like that's what I
11:49
Speaker 2: was gonna one of my other claims. I didn't have
11:51
Speaker 2: that as a claim because.
11:52
Speaker 1: They did it.
11:53
Speaker 2: Being a mistake does sound like human nature, right, like, hey,
11:56
Speaker 2: we're going to kill this guy. But it also is
11:58
Speaker 2: a little far fetched for me because you're like, he
12:01
Speaker 2: just so happened not to be there, and all these
12:03
Speaker 2: other famous people were there, and they're like, yeah, just
12:05
Speaker 2: kill him anyways, you know, And they made it seem
12:08
Speaker 2: like they were so drugged out that they just followed
12:10
Speaker 2: the orders. But one of the funny claims in here
12:13
Speaker 2: to me, not funny but ironic that I didn't realize
12:16
Speaker 2: is that the Beach Boys used one of Manson's songs
12:21
Speaker 2: and the end they renamed it and kind of took,
12:25
Speaker 2: you know, and they that's the premise of him being
12:30
Speaker 2: psychotic and pissed off about all this stuff, is that
12:33
Speaker 2: they used his song, didn't give him any royalties. He
12:36
Speaker 2: got like three hundred bucks up front, and that's what
12:39
Speaker 2: kind of made him on this rampage.
12:42
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was.
12:43
Speaker 4: The song was called Cease to Exist, and it's officially
12:46
Speaker 4: credited to Dennis Wilson, but it's actually Charles Manson song.
12:50
Speaker 4: Like you said, he gave him three hundred bucks outright,
12:52
Speaker 4: and then he just kept all the royalties. So after
12:56
Speaker 4: the song starts selling and starts doing fairly well, Charlie
12:59
Speaker 4: goes an out and hey, where's my action?
13:01
Speaker 5: He's like, nah, bro, like he sold it. And this
13:04
Speaker 5: was atypical.
13:05
Speaker 4: This was clearly Dennis Wilson absolutely taking advant in Charles
13:10
Speaker 4: Manson and that Charlie he only really had any sort
13:15
Speaker 4: of possible production I don't even say productive, but the
13:19
Speaker 4: only way he was going to ever exist in society
13:22
Speaker 4: was probably going to be as a musician, and since
13:24
Speaker 4: that got taken away from him in such a dramatic way, Yeah,
13:28
Speaker 4: that kind of gets cited as one of these breaking
13:30
Speaker 4: points when he's like, all right, screw the world and
13:32
Speaker 4: I'm taking everyone with me.
13:34
Speaker 5: Yeah.
13:35
Speaker 1: And my final key claim in this is go back
13:40
Speaker 1: to Jolly West.
13:41
Speaker 2: Is when you see the women and the followers of
13:45
Speaker 2: the Manson family, it seemed like Charlie learned some techniques
13:51
Speaker 2: along the way and they claim that these techniques of
13:54
Speaker 2: mind control that he learned was from Jolly West.
13:57
Speaker 1: Now, Jolly West pushes back like.
14:01
Speaker 2: They don't really interview him, but like throughout the years
14:03
Speaker 2: they talk about he denies any involvement with the CIA
14:06
Speaker 2: and his experiments with LSD, But him being at that
14:10
Speaker 2: clinic and connecting to Charles Manson, to me, it does
14:14
Speaker 2: have a little thread right there where he got these
14:16
Speaker 2: tactics from someone and possibly Jolly West is the smoking gun.
14:23
Speaker 5: This is where I'll put my bias on full display.
14:25
Speaker 4: But Jolly West's themes at this point irrefutable that he
14:29
Speaker 4: was in the CIA and working alongside the CIA. There's
14:32
Speaker 4: just too many incidences where he's actively involved on projects,
14:37
Speaker 4: and this one in particular, I guess the part that
14:41
Speaker 4: that's very subtle in the documentary with the part that
14:43
Speaker 4: they really make is that Jolly West is there at
14:47
Speaker 4: hey Ashbury, at that clinic and he sets up a
14:51
Speaker 4: few different locations where basically grad students from the college
14:57
Speaker 4: he's at. They start growing their beards out. Everyone's looking
15:00
Speaker 4: the part, they're looking like hippies, And really it's just
15:03
Speaker 4: this house or a clinic where people can come and
15:06
Speaker 4: crash and they're taking notes on them, and that's all
15:09
Speaker 4: it is. It's supposed to be like an observation thing.
15:11
Speaker 4: They're probably giving them drugs and they're probably you know,
15:14
Speaker 4: giving them some lectures. They don't go into a lot
15:16
Speaker 4: of that. But the part that's the most interesting is
15:20
Speaker 4: that the same time that Manson shows up at this
15:24
Speaker 4: clinic is the same time that Jolly West leaves the clinic.
15:29
Speaker 4: So it's like he set it all up. He got
15:31
Speaker 4: all the different systems in place, everything's running, and then
15:35
Speaker 4: someone says action and then he leaves to go and
15:39
Speaker 4: create this barrier right to create a very clear separation
15:43
Speaker 4: from him and Manson, even though it's got Jolly West
15:46
Speaker 4: fingerprints all over it.
15:56
Speaker 5: It.
15:57
Speaker 1: In Treasures in Overboard Moments, for me, one of the.
16:00
Speaker 2: Big hidden treasures is like I didn't really know as
16:04
Speaker 2: much how much they were trying to, Like I've always
16:06
Speaker 2: sort of the race war aspect, but I didn't realize
16:10
Speaker 2: how there was a narrative of them actually trying to
16:12
Speaker 2: pin these murders on the Black Panthers, and the extent
16:16
Speaker 2: that it seemed like they went to and how they
16:19
Speaker 2: really thoroughly like talked about like almost like gang culture
16:22
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily gang culture what we know today, but like
16:26
Speaker 2: with bikers and the Black Panthers, and how this narrative
16:30
Speaker 2: was really easy to set out there of the landscape
16:33
Speaker 2: of the times.
16:35
Speaker 4: I mean, clearly the civil rights movement people were still
16:38
Speaker 4: really charged by this. I mean we're talking sixties going
16:42
Speaker 4: into the early seventies. But I also wonder, I mean,
16:45
Speaker 4: I'm ignorant, I wasn't even alive back then, right, But
16:49
Speaker 4: they really think there's just three murders and writing the
16:52
Speaker 4: word pig in blood on someone's door and on the wall,
16:55
Speaker 4: that that was going to cause a national race war
16:58
Speaker 4: just across the entire country. Everyone's just going at it.
17:02
Speaker 4: It seems like something a bunch of drugged up hippies
17:06
Speaker 4: would assume that they're, of course it's going to have
17:09
Speaker 4: these huge ripples because we're in the center of it,
17:11
Speaker 4: and we're so important, and like, you know, like they're
17:14
Speaker 4: so inflated already with the egos that they probably did
17:18
Speaker 4: think that this was going to cause some kind of
17:19
Speaker 4: race war. I can see it from the other end too,
17:21
Speaker 4: where this is just a very superficial face that they
17:25
Speaker 4: put on it. It's just a facade that's also under
17:28
Speaker 4: some kind of CIA influence.
17:29
Speaker 5: I don't know. It's chaotic, right.
17:32
Speaker 2: No, I'm with you, because that's like what you think
17:34
Speaker 2: of like someone's super lsd'd out or like even like
17:37
Speaker 2: coked out, like where they have those crazy epiphanies where
17:40
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, you know what we could do and
17:42
Speaker 2: it sounds great.
17:43
Speaker 5: You know, like Jesus man, I'm totally Jesus. They're like, yeah,
17:46
Speaker 5: you are.
17:50
Speaker 4: The other The hidden treasure for me, the biggest one
17:54
Speaker 4: is that this will introduce normies to Jolly West. There
17:58
Speaker 4: are so many people that oh, Charles Manson documentary, I'll
18:03
Speaker 4: check that out because it checks a couple of boxes, right,
18:06
Speaker 4: Charles Manson just as being like this weird satanist slash
18:09
Speaker 4: accult slash weirdo that people are obsessed with. It's got
18:13
Speaker 4: true crime in it, it's got Hollywood in it. So
18:16
Speaker 4: because it hits all these different points, something inside of
18:20
Speaker 4: me just wishes that this means that Jolly West becomes
18:24
Speaker 4: slightly more mainstream. He'd be like, oh, let me look
18:26
Speaker 4: up this doctor Lewis Jollyton, you know West a little bit.
18:30
Speaker 4: Let's see what this guy's in zoo and hopefully have
18:33
Speaker 4: their mind blown because this guy he leaves his fingerprints
18:36
Speaker 4: at the scene at so many of these mk ult
18:39
Speaker 4: like Oklahoma City. I think whenever this came up and
18:43
Speaker 4: we did a noble lie, his name comes up in
18:46
Speaker 4: the jfk assassination. He's the last one to interview Jack Ruby.
18:49
Speaker 4: He's a guy that dosed an elephant to death on
18:53
Speaker 4: a whole host of different drugs, just kind of messing around.
18:57
Speaker 4: So I think more people should know who Jolly West.
19:00
Speaker 4: Business documentary will definitely do that.
19:03
Speaker 2: And as far as overboard moments, for me, it's not
19:06
Speaker 2: necessarily overboard. I think when you connect the book and
19:11
Speaker 2: watching the film, I just felt they stuck really to
19:14
Speaker 2: the mainstream narrative, like they do, dabble and tell you
19:17
Speaker 2: some great information, like you said, Jolly West and some
19:20
Speaker 2: of the connections and some of the stuff, but it
19:23
Speaker 2: seems like there's a lot of pushback and Vince gets
19:26
Speaker 2: a lot of airtime and he gets to say his
19:29
Speaker 2: side of the store, and they kind of like, even
19:31
Speaker 2: though they talked to Tom O'Neill, they don't give him
19:35
Speaker 2: as much shine as I would like, and I would
19:37
Speaker 2: like him to have been the lead more into this.
19:39
Speaker 2: It seems like they were like, yeah, you know, those
19:41
Speaker 2: are kind of crazy conspiracies you have, though, like, and
19:44
Speaker 2: they kept pushing back on everything he had to say.
19:47
Speaker 4: I don't have a whole lot more to add to that.
19:49
Speaker 4: I think that's probably the biggest thing. Again, is this
19:52
Speaker 4: twenty years of someone's research that went into making the
19:56
Speaker 4: original book, and then at the end of it you
19:58
Speaker 4: get roughly a ninety minute documentary. So they have to
20:02
Speaker 4: jump over a lot of stuff, and there's a lot
20:05
Speaker 4: of rabbit holes. And I also just wondered, too, man,
20:07
Speaker 4: there might be someone that's in the back room, you know,
20:10
Speaker 4: in the editing base, someone that's not on the actual
20:13
Speaker 4: screen during the production of this. It's like, yeah, no,
20:16
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that. Yeah no, I'm not going to
20:18
Speaker 4: be associated with that at all, because let's not forget
20:21
Speaker 4: the scope here. We're talking about the CIA and a
20:25
Speaker 4: lot of details of programs that have never been revealed
20:28
Speaker 4: a lot of its speculation, and is the closer you
20:31
Speaker 4: get with your speculation to the truth more dangerous it
20:34
Speaker 4: becomes for you? Like I actually that there's my paranoid
20:37
Speaker 4: tinfoil hat on a little bit. But I wonder if
20:40
Speaker 4: you're really going to drop this for the normies on
20:42
Speaker 4: HBO or Showtime wherever the hell on Netflix, there's probably
20:46
Speaker 4: some people that are making sure that they don't get
20:49
Speaker 4: mrked over it.
21:04
Speaker 2: Let's take a deep dive. It's time for that, and
21:06
Speaker 2: of course my deep dive. And I don't know if
21:09
Speaker 2: you were on the same boat as mean, but Jolly West, right,
21:13
Speaker 2: Jolly West is the key figure to me in this
21:16
Speaker 2: whole film. They talk about him in the beginning a
21:19
Speaker 2: little bit towards the end, but like he's not maybe
21:21
Speaker 2: the focal point what I would like it to be
21:23
Speaker 2: as much. But they do talk about him pretty extensively,
21:28
Speaker 2: compared like you said, it being on Netflix and enormy
21:32
Speaker 2: kind of angle.
21:34
Speaker 1: So to just hear him out there.
21:35
Speaker 2: And I think the thing about him is that, first
21:39
Speaker 2: of all, he was born in California, got.
21:42
Speaker 1: A degree at UCLA.
21:43
Speaker 2: He had military service in the Air Force in World
21:47
Speaker 2: War Two, and the Korean War, a prominent physician and
21:50
Speaker 2: professor focusing on psychiatric stuff, chairman of the Department of
21:56
Speaker 2: Psychiatric at UCLA, involvement with the CIA, associated with CIA's
22:01
Speaker 2: mk Ultra program exploring mind control techniques and drug use
22:05
Speaker 2: like LSD and hypnosis.
22:08
Speaker 1: His fingerprints are all over this.
22:11
Speaker 2: Like you said, it's the perfect storm for where he
22:14
Speaker 2: was at, the LSD, the mind control substances, and that
22:19
Speaker 2: clinic being connected with Manson. I feel like this was
22:23
Speaker 2: the rollout of like, Okay, we've done all these mk
22:25
Speaker 2: ultra tests, we've had these trials, let's have a real
22:29
Speaker 2: world experience and push it out there further.
22:33
Speaker 5: You can see this as sort of a trend too.
22:36
Speaker 4: We haven't done any Ted Kazinski documentaries yet, but you'll
22:39
Speaker 4: see this same sort of pattern develop where they identify
22:45
Speaker 4: someone that is outside the norm, right, they identify someone
22:48
Speaker 4: that stands out to them and say, let's put all
22:52
Speaker 4: of our effort into this person. Let's see if we
22:54
Speaker 4: can make them crack, and if we can make them crack,
22:57
Speaker 4: let's see what happens from that. And that's actually one
22:59
Speaker 4: of the things that this documentary. One of the people
23:03
Speaker 4: makes such a really good point where it's hard to
23:06
Speaker 4: tell the difference between the CIA sitting down and being like, Okay,
23:09
Speaker 4: we're gonna plot this happen and then this happens, like
23:11
Speaker 4: choreographing this entire thing, versus.
23:14
Speaker 5: Let's just kick back and see what happens. Let's just
23:16
Speaker 5: let this one guy.
23:18
Speaker 4: Let's make it so he never goes to jail, and
23:20
Speaker 4: anytime he gets in trouble, we just send him right
23:22
Speaker 4: back to this free clinic. We we kind of like
23:24
Speaker 4: recenter him with his parole officer and turn him back loose,
23:27
Speaker 4: and let's just see what happens if we.
23:30
Speaker 5: You know, allow this to continue.
23:32
Speaker 4: The drugs and the mind control and everything that's kind
23:35
Speaker 4: of implied in this movie that maybe it's not all choreographed.
23:39
Speaker 4: Maybe it's just them playing, you know, sign like mad
23:42
Speaker 4: science experiment out in public.
23:54
Speaker 1: Ripples in Ways to me, the main Ripples in Ways
23:59
Speaker 1: comes from the book, right, like the book caused this documentary.
24:03
Speaker 2: And I think you said earlier best this is a
24:07
Speaker 2: chance for people that would not normally go down these
24:10
Speaker 2: mind control avenues of ultra. A lot of people that
24:14
Speaker 2: are into true crime are going to check this out
24:16
Speaker 2: and they're gonna be like Mkultra. I kind of heard
24:18
Speaker 2: of that, you know, and then it's getting into the
24:20
Speaker 2: mind control that to me is going to be the
24:23
Speaker 2: main ripples of this is going to connect a lot
24:25
Speaker 2: of these people that would not normally.
24:26
Speaker 1: Dive down the rabbit holes that me and you already.
24:29
Speaker 2: I think that's one subject we both kind of like
24:32
Speaker 2: can really connect off of his mind control, where I
24:34
Speaker 2: think that's like a staple of the conspiratorial unit or
24:40
Speaker 2: whatever one of the society or whatever we call it nowadays.
24:43
Speaker 2: But the group that we get into, anybody that's into
24:45
Speaker 2: conspiracies notes about m culture and all of these different
24:49
Speaker 2: aspects of it, which we'll get into when some of
24:50
Speaker 2: the other films were breaking down, I think the ripples
24:53
Speaker 2: really get what we would say, quote unquote normies a
24:56
Speaker 2: chance to dive into our world.
24:59
Speaker 4: I'll call it a diet, like the mind control is
25:01
Speaker 4: like a stable in your conspiracy diet. And after a while,
25:05
Speaker 4: maybe it gets a little bit bland, it's like oh
25:07
Speaker 4: this again, but yeah, bro at this again, because it's
25:10
Speaker 4: it's literally part of this entire operation we're going to
25:14
Speaker 4: We'll get more into that as we do some more
25:15
Speaker 4: of these documentaries, and I would agree with you that
25:18
Speaker 4: this book is probably the thing that deserves all the
25:22
Speaker 4: ripples and waves, and it's not necessarily the documentary. And
25:25
Speaker 4: I've seen quite a lot of criticism about this particular
25:30
Speaker 4: documentary online, especially from the hardcorees, and I kind of
25:34
Speaker 4: get it. I was surprised at first because I watched
25:36
Speaker 4: this going in blind and then went online and then
25:38
Speaker 4: went and looked at some of the reviews, and it's like, oh,
25:41
Speaker 4: they've they've ruined it. You know, Chaos is so much
25:43
Speaker 4: bigger and better than any of this. This is a
25:46
Speaker 4: total whitewash, a total sy up.
25:48
Speaker 5: I don't know. I think it might be a little
25:49
Speaker 5: bit more nuanced.
25:50
Speaker 4: Again, they're trying to target enormy audience and not completely
25:54
Speaker 4: lose them in the first twenty thirty forty minutes, right,
25:58
Speaker 4: And best case scenario is that someone watches this and
26:01
Speaker 4: they're like, oh, wow, that wasn't a whole lot of information,
26:04
Speaker 4: but it sure is interesting. Let me go and check
26:06
Speaker 4: out this book that it was based on. Then what
26:08
Speaker 4: are the complaints? Right now, people nor meis are finding
26:11
Speaker 4: out about the book and reading the book, So I
26:14
Speaker 4: don't I understand some of the criticism. I think some
26:17
Speaker 4: of it's been very very like like overly biased because
26:21
Speaker 4: they wanted nine hours or twenty years of research to
26:25
Speaker 4: all happen in an hour and a half. And I
26:27
Speaker 4: honestly think that this was really well done. I don't
26:30
Speaker 4: even know if that's controversial or not, but like I
26:33
Speaker 4: could send a link to this to my parents and
26:36
Speaker 4: they might check it out, and then my mom might
26:38
Speaker 4: be like, oh, maybe I'll check out the book of that.
26:41
Speaker 2: So they wanted a money matters of chaos right all
26:55
Speaker 2: right that time, I gotta know, what do you got,
26:58
Speaker 2: sink or swim?
27:00
Speaker 5: For me, it's the whim all the way. Man.
27:02
Speaker 4: This is a great documentary and again, worst case scenario,
27:06
Speaker 4: they didn't get every single detail that was covered in
27:09
Speaker 4: twenty years of research. But my mom finds out who
27:13
Speaker 4: Jolly West is. It's hard to downplay how important that is.
27:18
Speaker 2: It's a swim for me as well, because it's not
27:20
Speaker 2: what the book is, but what film ever in the
27:24
Speaker 2: history of adaptations from book to film is the book.
27:28
Speaker 2: It's never that right, we know that, and with the
27:32
Speaker 2: connections and being on Netflix, I don't think they could
27:35
Speaker 2: have gone that long. And it was great for me
27:37
Speaker 2: to have a ninety six minute documentary to watch instead
27:40
Speaker 2: of like five hours. And even though there's a lot
27:43
Speaker 2: of details that we would love, this is a great
27:46
Speaker 2: impact on society for people to be introduced, Like you
27:50
Speaker 2: said to Jolly West, that's a swim enough for me.
28:01
Speaker 1: And what do we got up next?
28:03
Speaker 5: What do we got up next?
28:04
Speaker 4: We got a movie called cy War, which I had
28:07
Speaker 4: never seen before, and I don't even know how it
28:10
Speaker 4: found its way on his list. I think I just
28:11
Speaker 4: like woke up in the middle of the night. Wasn't
28:13
Speaker 4: even I was just like sleep walking, added to the list,
28:16
Speaker 4: went back to sleep. But yeah, cy War, it's all
28:18
Speaker 4: about psychological propaganda, and maybe added the list.
28:23
Speaker 2: It was some Jolly West Shenanigans. He slipped you a
28:26
Speaker 2: little dose and he put it in your brain.
28:29
Speaker 4: I won't complain if someone sneaks into my house and
28:32
Speaker 4: gives me some LSD.
28:34
Speaker 1: Don't forget to share Under the Docks.
28:37
Speaker 2: Go to Paranoid American dot com, go to kill Themockingbirds
28:40
Speaker 2: dot com, and stay tuned for the next one.
28:42
Speaker 1: This is Under the Docks, Peace one the yeas.
29:47
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30:26
Speaker 1: Feel nood I screwpled my life away? Driven the right
30:37
Speaker 1: to pay?
30:37
Speaker 4: Will it ENLiGHT your brain?
30:38
Speaker 6: If you're the flight of the plane paper the highs
30:41
Speaker 6: of blade.
30:41
Speaker 5: From what in avasing field, Well it's real, the real.
30:45
Speaker 6: You will engage in your favorite to post the lord
30:47
Speaker 6: of an arrangement, a gauge the proper results to hit
30:51
Speaker 6: the pavement.
30:51
Speaker 5: I pay your emotional hate may be your language.
30:54
Speaker 6: The game how they playing it well without lay because
30:57
Speaker 6: the main and whatever the costs, the out of champion
31:00
Speaker 6: thanks get to cappetated. That is the apex executional flame.
31:04
Speaker 6: You walked with your lebomb distributed. It warfs rather gruesome.
31:07
Speaker 1: For eyes to see. Maxim out and I like my
31:10
Speaker 1: trees flowing off in the face.
31:12
Speaker 6: You're despising me for what thought cat the lady did.
31:15
Speaker 6: Rather cut throat heroinoid American must.
31:17
Speaker 5: Be all the blunt spoke for real. Lord, give me.
31:20
Speaker 6: Your day your way, bacate, they wait around the hate
31:23
Speaker 6: whatever they say, man, it's not in the least bit weed.
31:27
Speaker 6: You heavy rotate when a beat hit some things.
31:29
Speaker 2: That's you.
31:30
Speaker 5: Well, uncle niggas for rell.
31:31
Speaker 1: You welcome.
31:33
Speaker 5: They ain't ever had a deal.
31:34
Speaker 6: You welcome, man, They lacking a pill. You're welcome.
31:38
Speaker 1: Yet they going, It's still You're welcome.