Latest / Future Christian / Revival, Renewal, and the Future of the Disciples – Live from GA with Dennis Sanders

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Revival, Renewal, and the Future of the Disciples – Live from GA with Dennis Sanders · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dennis Sanders back
0:50
to the pod. Dennis Sanders is an
0:53
ordained Disciples of Christ minister and lead pastor
0:55
of First Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota.
0:59
A native of Flint, Michigan and a big fan of the
1:01
Detroit Tigers and Lions, Dennis
1:04
is also a communication specialist for a Lutheran
1:07
congregation in the Twin Cities and is the
1:10
host of the Church and main podcast which tries to
1:13
live out Karl Bart's quote of reading the Bible and
1:16
the newspaper and interpreting the news through
1:19
the Bible. Dennis lives in Minneapolis with
1:22
his husband Daniel and their cats.
1:25
A reminder, before we start today's conversation,
1:28
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
1:31
a review and share Future Christian with a friend.
1:34
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
1:37
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
1:40
email@laurensonatemediapro.com
1:44
with comments, questions or ideas for future
1:46
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
1:49
we faithfully discern the future of the church.
2:02
>> Loren: Hey, and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
2:05
Mitchman Jr. And I'm pleased to be
2:08
live recording, live and in person from
2:11
Disciples General assembly
2:14
here in uh, Memphis,
2:16
Tennessee. And uh, yeah,
2:20
this is becoming on board. I'm hoping Dennis will be a
2:23
long staying tradition of us doing like a
2:26
general assembly of the Disciples of Christ,
2:30
you know, episode. So
2:33
Dennis is unfortunately not here with us,
2:35
but ah, yeah. Dennis.
2:38
>> Dennis: Yeah.
2:38
>> Loren: What do you want to say?
2:39
>> Dennis: It is a kind of a,
2:42
a tradition. Um, yeah, didn't work out
2:45
this year to, to be together in person,
2:48
but I'm um, hoping uh, whenever
2:51
we meet again that we will do this
2:54
together. Live, uh, in the same town.
2:58
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
3:02
>> Dennis: So I think the first question I want to ask is
3:05
how are things going at General assembly? What are you
3:09
learning? What are your.
3:12
How is it different from Louisville in
3:14
2022? Three,
3:16
um, and going from there?
3:20
>> Loren: I think one thing that has been noticeable
3:23
is the format feels slightly different in that it's
3:26
kind of wrapped around a weekend or at least
3:29
start for the weekend. So I think that
3:32
obviously I Can imagine it's challenging for
3:35
passers in some way is that all these passers
3:38
are having to cover, you know, find coverage for
3:40
Sunday morning. But I also does
3:43
do think it's a nice move towards
3:47
folks who might be bi vocational
3:49
in that they're not having to take off as much time
3:52
off work, for instance. And you know, it's just,
3:55
I think it's nice way to support local
3:58
churches. I attended
4:01
um, Jeff Mitchell's church Sunday morning
4:04
and it was a, you know, I'm sure many,
4:08
many other folks went to other churches
4:10
m in the Yosemite. So I think that's a great way to support
4:13
local churches too.
4:18
>> Dennis: One of the things that I read
4:20
was something from Jeff Gill, who is
4:23
also a disciples pastor. Um, he was kind
4:26
of talking about general, uh, Assembly's past and some
4:29
of the challenges that are facing
4:33
the General Assembly. Um, one of the things
4:35
that I know that was talked about, I
4:38
have not heard much
4:40
um, from here being in
4:43
Minneapolis, but
4:45
the way that the design has been
4:49
rejiggered. We're supposed to have our next
4:51
General assembly three years from now. But
4:57
we don't know where that is going to be
5:00
because we have not yet put uh, any type
5:03
of contracts or anything. And part of that is
5:06
because of uh, declining attendance.
5:09
And I remember
5:12
my first General assembly was in
5:14
1999 and I think
5:17
that one had probably, I want
5:20
to say close to 7 or 8,000, um, that showed
5:23
up.
5:23
>> Loren: Wow. Um, wow.
5:25
>> Dennis: And I know that when I was in
5:27
Louisville two years ago,
5:30
it was supposed to project around
5:32
3,000. I don't even, I think Jeff even said it
5:35
did not even fit that.
5:37
Um, and there was a lot of talk about this
5:40
General assembly in Memphis being in the
5:43
lower. Um, since I'm not there, I can't
5:46
judge that.
5:47
>> Loren: But yeah, you know,
5:49
I mean, I think this is interesting and I think
5:52
this is a good way to,
5:55
to make this conversation applicable to more than just
5:58
discipline price. Yeah, you know,
6:01
listeners. Because this is,
6:04
this is relevant to I think broadly speaking
6:06
mainline and even like I think
6:09
evangelical context is just like how do you make.
6:12
Because it's funny, I got to meet Jeff in
6:15
person like half an hour ago. Uh, so
6:17
we'll have to make sure at least for me and
6:20
don't mind doing this. Well put his substack in our show
6:23
notes.
6:26
But I think his, his substack was
6:29
interesting when he talked about the challenge of
6:32
this, this conference so to speak, as it really
6:35
was kind of just a conference, but more
6:38
for I guess non disciples this year. I Call it a
6:41
conference, but being kind of like an institutionalist
6:44
event. M. And, you
6:47
know, Institutionalists mostly being
6:50
older and daring off and then
6:53
this is. This event has kind of niche
6:56
to be more geared towards progressive
6:59
institutionalists, which I think
7:02
certainly there's been some hint,
7:06
maybe those not progressive, they'd probably stay stronger
7:09
than hint,
7:12
you know. So. Yeah. It's interesting
7:16
though, I would say, you.
7:17
>> Dennis: Know, I wonder if it's being
7:21
more. I mean, I think that you're.
7:23
You're correct in some point of the progressive institutionalists,
7:26
but that is also geared towards. As Jeff talks about the
7:29
idealists as well.
7:31
>> Loren: Right.
7:31
>> Dennis: Um.
7:32
>> Loren: Right.
7:32
>> Dennis: Aren't as interested
7:35
in kind of all of the. Maybe the nuts and
7:38
bolts and some of the things that
7:42
I think I would be as. Because, uh, I kind of consider myself
7:45
an institutionalist and, you know,
7:48
I'm interested about things. About how
7:51
are things going to help the local church? How are things going.
7:55
Things that I think can be helpful.
7:59
I don't always see as much, but I.
8:02
You know, it is more geared to
8:05
the idealists and some of the things that they're interested in. And
8:08
I don't want it to be to the point of, well, we
8:11
should ignore them. That's not my point.
8:13
>> Loren: Right.
8:14
>> Dennis: But, uh, it's kind of where the
8:17
balance is tilting.
8:22
>> Loren: Yeah. I think. I mean,
8:25
I hate to say this out loud, uh, that I kind of already did, but
8:29
I think the first day there was like, a
8:32
resolution to condemn Projects 2025.
8:35
And as much as I don't like
8:38
Project 2025, I just wanted, like,
8:41
what is the point of a.
8:44
Of a denomination or institution of less than, you
8:47
know, let's say 200,000 people in a nation of
8:50
300 million? Like, why are we,
8:54
you know, why are we wasting our time on this? I don't. I don't know
8:57
if that. I hope that's not too harsh.
9:01
>> Dennis: I don't think it is harsh. I, uh, mean, I.
9:04
But I think we're trying to bring this out
9:07
beyond just our denomination. Um,
9:11
and I think that there is a.
9:15
There's a concern. I think we're still operating
9:18
in a way that. When I
9:20
think especially mainline churches, but even just the church in general, I
9:23
think had more influence in our culture. And
9:27
people who were in powerful positions
9:29
listened to what the church had to say.
9:33
And I don't think that we are in that culture
9:36
anymore. Uh, even among people who
9:41
may agree with us that something like
9:43
Project 2025 is not a good thing. I
9:46
don't think they care whether the disciples of Christ
9:49
thinks that's a good idea.
9:52
Um, the question is,
9:54
what does that mean? And it's not that we
9:57
don't pay attention to what's going on in the
10:00
world, but, but I think the
10:03
way that we used to operate and I think you maybe
10:06
even shared this, you've been sharing a book that you've
10:09
been reading about the importance
10:12
of that, you know, want
10:15
to feel like we have to be heard in uh, our society.
10:18
And I think that way that we
10:21
do it might have worked
10:24
in the 70s and 80s. I just don't think it works
10:27
now.
10:29
>> Loren: Yeah, the book is the Mixed Ecology. It's a new book coming out
10:31
from Shiley, Dwight, Shiley and
10:37
Pogue. Is that how you say it?
10:39
>> Dennis: I, um, think so. I have a hard time trying to
10:42
pronounce his name.
10:46
>> Loren: For sure. It's not saying, it's spelling it. That's very true.
10:49
Uh, I really appreciate their work and I followed
10:52
Dwight's work in the past,
10:55
but I'm trying to find the quote here now.
10:59
Oh yeah, it says political and social advocacy is another way in
11:02
which churches can operate from a Christian dumb, um, mindset.
11:05
Denominations and other church bodies make social statements
11:08
and pronouncements on various political issues
11:11
with the assumption they have moral credibility and will influence
11:14
the nation. So I thought it was very
11:17
fascinating and so many of, especially our more
11:20
progressive folks just railing against Christendom for good
11:23
reason.
11:25
>> Dennis: Um, we still want Christendom, or at
11:27
least we act like.
11:29
>> Loren: Yeah, right, right. So it's like we don't want it,
11:32
but in some ways we do want it.
11:34
Mhm.
11:36
>> Dennis: Yeah. I mean, I think we,
11:39
what we don't want is, I think who
11:42
is running Christendom.
11:44
>> Loren: Right.
11:45
>> Dennis: And I think in this case it would be
11:49
more evangelical, especially Christian nationalists,
11:51
because we want to run Christendom.
11:54
And the whole point of this is it's
11:57
bad. It doesn't matter who's the
12:00
person running. It could be, uh, just a better
12:03
run Christendom. That doesn't make it. That's not the point.
12:06
And I think especially in our
12:09
culture now, not that
12:12
Christendom was ever really a good thing, but it really doesn't
12:15
work anymore because no one cares
12:18
about what we think. And
12:21
so then we have to think about what does that
12:24
mean and what does it mean then to operate as a
12:26
church in
12:29
culture with all the things that we're dealing with,
12:33
especially in our current time?
12:35
>> Loren: Um, right.
12:36
>> Dennis: And I think to me what's more important
12:39
is how are we being a
12:41
witness to Christ in our
12:44
time? And those
12:47
are Some of the things I think are more important that I want to
12:50
focus on and not, uh, necessarily.
12:52
Here's this statement that we can
12:55
all feel good that we just passed that
12:58
no one else cares about.
13:00
>> Loren: Right. I mean, again, to be clear, like, neither one
13:03
of US Support Project
13:05
2025.
13:06
>> Dennis: Nope. No.
13:09
>> Loren: No.
13:10
>> Dennis: It is bad.
13:13
So I guess one question that I have.
13:15
Um, having
13:18
you had your experience now in Memphis
13:21
and you've been there since Friday,
13:24
um, where do you
13:27
think General
13:30
assembly is going? And maybe to open
13:33
up to listeners who aren't disciple, but maybe
13:35
Presbyterian or Episcopalian or whatever.
13:39
Where do these gatherings go?
13:41
Um, you know, one of our
13:44
again and the other Jeff that we talk about, Jeff Mitchell,
13:48
um, has, ah, sometimes said that he thinks this is the last
13:51
General Assembly. I hope he's not
13:54
right, because I think that these things still. Still
13:56
have some value.
13:58
>> Loren: Right.
13:58
>> Dennis: But I think maybe where he's getting at
14:01
does have some, something. There's some value in what
14:04
he's saying. So what is the future
14:07
of this?
14:09
>> Loren: I mean, obviously, like, you and I are not
14:12
insiders by any stretch.
14:16
M. That's probably obvious even already in our conversation.
14:19
Right? We're not insiders. I was
14:22
talking to a buddy here I'm, um, with. And
14:25
I guess there's. There's some rumors, there's some
14:28
conversation, some chatter around, um, Kansas city.
14:30
Because in
14:33
2027, I think that's. No,
14:36
I guess it'd be 28. Would it be the 60th anniversary?
14:39
M. Yeah. Yeah. The what the
14:43
you can say restructure.
14:45
>> Dennis: Kind of when we became restructured denomination.
14:48
>> Loren: Which I guess was in Kansas City. So to have it back in Kansas
14:51
City would make sense. There's also a
14:54
strong Disciples presence in Kansas. So I think
14:57
it makes sense, probably speaking, to focus on
15:01
having it in regions of the country where there's a strong single
15:04
presence.
15:05
>> Dennis: It's also very centrally located.
15:08
>> Loren: Right. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I
15:10
don't know, I
15:13
think Memphis. I don't know how, how it is for others because I live
15:16
in Denver. So it's, you know, it's not generally hard
15:19
for me to get out of, uh, Denver, the places. But I think
15:23
centrally located places with a strong Disciples presence
15:27
obviously kind of limits you to, you know, what,
15:29
Kansas City, Tennessee,
15:34
Louisville, I suppose Texas for sure
15:37
would be another.
15:38
Um, but
15:41
I guess broadly speaking, true point, like, I
15:44
always think there's value if, if, if anything for
15:47
this. Like when I was.
15:50
It's a Monday afternoon on Friday night when I was at the Denver
15:53
airport getting ready to get on the Plane,
15:56
you know, and I was of course spotted some
15:59
other Disciples clergy there and one of
16:02
them is working at a UCC church right now, United Church of Christ
16:05
Church. And this person was like, oh, it's so
16:07
much more fun to be at the Disciples General
16:10
assembly than the UCC Synod, which is
16:13
happening concurrent right now in Kansas City.
16:16
>> Dennis: Kansas City, Yeah.
16:18
>> Loren: So I think if even from that like you know,
16:21
they talk about often, I mean this is, this is the good and
16:24
bad. Right, Dennis? We'd agree like Disciples is like a
16:27
big family reunion. Mhm. That's good.
16:29
Except when you're like the adopted kid and then no one gives a
16:32
crap who you are.
16:36
Which I think, Dennis, you can. I can relate to.
16:39
>> Dennis: Yeah.
16:42
>> Loren: May, I'm being too cynical here, aren't I?
16:44
>> Dennis: No, you're not. No, you're not.
16:48
I mean, I think that's one of the reasons I'm not there this year is
16:51
that.
16:52
>> Loren: Yeah.
16:54
>> Dennis: Especially last time and, and there were good points of
16:57
last year and, and 23 was weird for me
16:59
personally just because my mom was. Had
17:02
had a stroke and there was just a lot of uproar
17:06
and everything. Um, but it just did
17:09
not. I think one of the things that
17:12
was really has been always good about General assembly is
17:15
that it feels like a big old family reunion. And it
17:18
didn't like that.
17:19
>> Loren: Yeah.
17:20
>> Dennis: This time around. And so it kind of colored my
17:23
perception um, about
17:26
going this year because I just did not want to feel like
17:29
the red headed stepchild again.
17:32
>> Loren: Right, right.
17:33
>> Dennis: That is something I want to hopefully
17:35
recapture is that sense that
17:39
um, and this was in talking with another
17:41
disciple pastor that really we
17:44
can really kind
17:47
of recapture the breadth and depth of the denomination
17:50
and that you know,
17:53
that we are kind of a truly diverse
17:57
in many different ways. And to try
18:00
to bring that. Because I don't feel that we've.
18:03
I mean I don't know what it's like now in Memphis,
18:06
but when I was in Louisville I felt like that was lost.
18:10
>> Loren: Well, let's talk about that if we can, because I think,
18:14
I think it's been very obvious
18:18
and this is something that I really appreciate. Like
18:20
last night thinking about this is like the Disciples are
18:23
very diverse from a
18:26
race and ethnicity part standpoint. And I
18:29
very much appreciate that. And I feel like GA
18:32
goes out of their way to highlight that in a good way.
18:35
>> Dennis: And I, and I think, I think that's wonderful as uh,
18:38
speaking as uh, African American, I think that's great.
18:42
>> Loren: But I'm thinking of again Jeff Gill's
18:45
substack in that he talked about not
18:48
necessarily being inclusive of
18:51
conservative or moderate voices. And I wonder how do
18:54
you. Like I was talking about this with a friend over lunch. Like,
18:57
how could. How could this be structured
19:00
in a way to be more inclusive of those other
19:03
perspectives theologically? Like, would it be like a
19:06
certain speaker, you know,
19:09
what are your thoughts?
19:11
>> Dennis: I think part of it is. Is a certain speaker.
19:14
Um, but I also
19:17
think, you know, even there. There has to be some.
19:20
There has to be some give that, uh,
19:22
progressives don't get bent out of shape if a
19:25
conservative says something a little bit different
19:29
and vice versa.
19:31
>> Loren: Right, Right.
19:33
>> Dennis: Though I also kind of wonder, and this is,
19:37
this is actually speaking to something that I've experienced,
19:40
had just experienced and that you are going to experience,
19:44
um, through something called the Iowa Preachers Project.
19:47
And what I
19:50
learned from that experience, and it was a.
19:53
That group that I was in was made
19:56
up of people from both liberal and conservative
19:59
denominations, denominations that were more
20:02
gay, Frankie and others that weren't.
20:05
And yet we held together.
20:08
And I think what was centered,
20:11
central about that was the preaching and
20:14
the centrality of the gospel.
20:18
And I think that's something that has to be the
20:20
center. Center thing, the thing that
20:23
holds us together. Because I think
20:26
what is a problem in our. In the modern church today is
20:29
that as much as we may talk about Jesus or
20:32
all the time, we're really held
20:34
together by our ideologies. And this is not
20:37
a progressive problem or, uh, just a conservative
20:40
problem. Both.
20:42
>> Loren: Yes.
20:43
>> Dennis: And so I think if we want to be more
20:46
to have a wider breadth, it also means we
20:49
have to really change our reference. That it's not
20:52
about the things that we do,
20:55
but it's really about who are we centering it
20:58
on. And of course, um, I'm, um, centering
21:01
it on Christ and not on
21:04
whatever greatest progressive or conservative
21:07
piece of no statement that
21:09
we want to get out.
21:11
>> Loren: Yeah. So for kicks and grins,
21:14
Dennis Ideate with me for a minute. Like, who would be
21:17
a speaker that would resonate with
21:20
conservative voices, conservative perspectives, who would
21:23
not be like, obviously you don't want to invite someone who's like off the
21:26
rails. But like
21:28
someone suggested, like Adam Hamilton.
21:32
Although is he middle of the road enough?
21:36
I think he like Carrie Newhoff, but
21:39
I don't know if he would come because he probably thinks he's too big of a deal.
21:44
>> Dennis: I don't know. He's an interesting one.
21:47
Um, and. And I think
21:50
the. The added thing about Carrie Newhoff is that he
21:52
comes because he's Canadian. It's. It's Just a
21:55
totally different mindset.
21:58
>> Loren: Right.
21:59
>> Dennis: It's just kind of, you know, where do you kind of
22:02
put that? I mean, he's someone that I think would be
22:05
interesting.
22:06
Um,
22:09
Jason Mel, who
22:12
I've, you know, talked about is. Is also
22:15
a good one. Yeah.
22:18
>> Loren: Who's. He's umc. Is that correct?
22:19
>> Dennis: He's umc. Yep.
22:21
>> Loren: Okay.
22:24
>> Dennis: Um, trying to think though. Unfortunately
22:27
she's getting older and probably would. Traveling is an
22:30
issue. Is something like a Fleming Rutledge.
22:32
>> Loren: Um, sure, sure.
22:34
>> Dennis: I think.
22:34
>> Loren: Yeah.
22:36
>> Dennis: No, I would say in some ways
22:39
politically liberal, but. No.
22:42
Right.
22:42
>> Loren: Very gospel centered.
22:44
>> Dennis: Gospel centered and just. I think would just be great.
22:47
Uh, Will Williman is another one.
22:50
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
22:52
>> Dennis: Um, yeah, you know, it's not gonna.
22:55
Those names are not gonna please everyone, but
22:58
I think that they are.
23:01
There's enough in what they say that they
23:04
could bring people to the table and. Want to
23:07
hear something.
23:08
>> Loren: Yeah.
23:09
>> Loren Richmond: Cause I think.
23:10
>> Loren: Who was I talking about? Oh, it was.
23:13
I was interviewing one of my. I
23:16
did another podcast this morning with Doug Poe, the
23:19
president of Phillips Seminary M.
23:22
It may release before or after this
23:25
conversation. But I, you know, I was asking him as
23:27
a, As a Methodist, what he thinks is
23:30
perspective of the General assembly. And I
23:33
told him this is similar to Methodism. But you know, the
23:36
thing that I really appreciate about the disciples tradition is that
23:39
like all, uh, are uh, welcome at the table
23:44
no matter if you're. No matter what. And I think
23:48
that was what pained me to read Jeff Gill's post
23:51
is like, well, gosh, it seems like
23:54
we're kind of setting up some barriers,
23:57
whether purposeful or accidental, that we're having
24:00
a big table here, but not everyone's here.
24:02
Mhm.
24:04
>> Dennis: Yeah. I mean, I think that, that, that is
24:07
part of the, the issue. And,
24:10
and I mean I've seen it in the workshop.
24:13
One of the big things for me has always been the workshops
24:16
and.
24:17
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
24:18
>> Dennis: When I was in Des Moines in 2019,
24:22
um, there were a lot of good
24:25
workshops that were on the, you
24:28
know, for the local church
24:31
that when I went to
24:35
Louisville four years later, I
24:38
didn't find very much
24:42
that was sort of distressing.
24:44
Um, now there was a lot more on things like
24:47
activism and yeah, there
24:50
is a role for that, but I felt. It felt like that was the
24:53
only thing. And it's kind of like,
24:56
you know, are we talking about
25:00
helping people who may be interested in planting new
25:02
churches or are we talking about. But we want to
25:05
revitalize current churches?
25:08
Um, you know, there was a really good
25:10
workshop about
25:13
churches moving or Selling property, which
25:16
obviously I fell into that issue a few years
25:18
later. That was helpful.
25:20
>> Loren: Yeah, I think I was in that workshop where
25:23
I think we didn't know each other back then, but I think I went
25:26
to that. At least one of those workshops, you know. Okay,
25:29
sounds interesting.
25:30
>> Dennis: I mean, I think those things were also
25:33
helpful. And
25:36
I know Orlando, and I
25:39
think they may have brought some of that back, but Orlando, I
25:42
remember they were able to get Walter
25:45
Brudeman and have a really. It was some really
25:48
good Bible study in the morning,
25:51
um, of the day. Um, and that
25:54
was really good to see that,
25:56
um, things that I think help
25:59
people are, you know, just get
26:04
things for helping pastors, but even lay leaders to
26:07
that they can take and can
26:10
grow in their faith or be edified in their
26:13
faith. I think those are things that are important.
26:18
>> Loren: Mhm.
26:21
We want to talk about our failed attempt at a
26:24
resolution, Dennis.
26:25
>> Dennis: Oh God,
26:28
yes. Let's talk about it.
26:30
>> Loren: Okay. I wasn't sure if I wanted to get that.
26:33
We've been hot take ish a little bit. So let's get really hot take ish,
26:35
right? Mhm.
26:38
>> Dennis: No, I, I think we should talk about it because I think that that's important.
26:41
Um, and I, I
26:44
feel like it kind of fits
26:47
what's going on, what maybe
26:51
has been going on in the denomination.
26:54
So why don't you set us up and
26:57
then I can.
26:58
>> Loren: So I can't remember if this was
27:01
your idea or my idea, Dennis, but
27:04
I remember at some point us talking and
27:06
me saying like, yeah, let's have.
27:09
Oh. Because I'd read Ben Crosby's Pro,
27:13
where he had made a similar subset. I don't know if
27:16
I can find the original subject, but about kind of
27:18
lamenting these, like we talked
27:21
about with Project 2025 is in his case the
27:24
Episcopal Church, like spending so much time at
27:27
their, their version of this,
27:30
creating resolutions that, uh, again, for, uh.
27:33
They're not much bigger than the disciples
27:38
when, you know, their, you know, ancient
27:41
similarities is on a vast, stark
27:44
decline. And his big timing was that we should
27:47
be more calm, spending more time on
27:49
renewal and revitalization and revival.
27:54
So I said maybe we should just make it.
27:57
Try to do a resolution on
28:00
fair and revival for 2025.
28:04
And boy, I did not
28:06
realize the
28:09
hoops that you have to go through to get.
28:14
>> Dennis: Well. And I, uh. And you can explain
28:17
that there were, it seemed like there were a lot of hoops
28:20
that you had to go through in order for that
28:23
resolution to become a live
28:25
issue.
28:26
>> Loren: Yeah, I was kind of surprised. Like I Had a
28:29
zoom with someone in the GMP
28:32
office. I won't say names,
28:34
but I had a zoom.
28:37
And nothing. Nothing
28:40
negative, but, you know, I had a zoom. And then we had,
28:43
like, I think another zoom. If I remember correctly. I could
28:46
be misremembering, but, you know, this is fine. And
28:49
I tried to. Try to be clear, like, this
28:52
is not me trying to be some, like,
28:55
evangel, evangelical conservative
28:58
breed. Like, I'm just trying to say, like.
29:02
Like we're. We're denomination decline. Like, and I believe
29:05
in our. Our tradition. Like, let's pray
29:08
for revival. And we just do that.
29:14
>> Dennis: Yeah. And it just seemed like. I, uh,
29:17
think I remember that there had to be,
29:21
you know, all of
29:24
these ducks in a row on.
29:27
And it just didn't seem like there was just
29:30
that much of a. You know,
29:33
you kind of had hope that maybe
29:36
from the.
29:39
The office of the. Of the general minister that there would just
29:42
be kind of. Yeah, this is. This is good.
29:45
>> Loren: All right, let's make this happen.
29:46
>> Dennis: And it. Nope, this could not get
29:49
that to happen. And.
29:53
And I don't know why that was.
29:56
You know, it didn't seem like there was
30:00
interest for. And. And some.
30:04
I do wonder if there was some suspicion.
30:07
>> Loren: Oh, I know there's suspicion. Like the. The zoom.
30:10
I felt like the first 20 minutes were me, like,
30:13
talking them down. Like, me being
30:16
like, this isn't what you think it is. This isn't what you think it is. This
30:19
isn't what you think it is.
30:20
>> Dennis: You know, which is funny because even within
30:23
the. The resolution, it didn't. It's
30:26
not like it was some. That, you know,
30:29
we were making some kind of a, uh. Uh,
30:32
Christian nationalism or something.
30:34
>> Loren: Right. Right.
30:37
Yeah. So, I mean, I think. I think two
30:40
observations I have, or.
30:42
One would. I would kind of second what you just
30:45
noted about kind of wishing there was more
30:50
fervor or alignment
30:53
from leadership around social media.
30:57
But two, you know, I think this kind of.
31:00
Is perhaps the detriment of this. This kind
31:03
of structure is like,
31:06
you know, it's hard to get something off the ground if you're just an outsider
31:09
and you don't have institutional power,
31:13
you know.
31:14
>> Dennis: Yeah. And I think that
31:17
is part of the problem is that
31:21
if you have, uh, an interest in
31:24
things such as revival
31:27
or prayer,
31:30
there really isn't.
31:34
>> Loren: A.
31:34
>> Dennis: Constituency, it seems,
31:37
you know,
31:42
not in the same way as some of the constituencies would be
31:45
for other issues.
31:47
And so it's just. And I
31:50
think. I don't know, maybe it's just the way that our, uh,
31:55
society is Set up. Is that. So
31:57
if we don't say something that isn't explicitly
32:00
progressive, then it's immediately
32:03
viewed with suspicion.
32:07
So it just makes it hard and
32:10
very difficult for anything to move forward
32:14
because if it's not,
32:18
um, on, um, the side that you favor, then
32:21
we're just not going to trust it.
32:24
>> Loren: And tell me what you think of this
32:27
too, Dennis. I'm wondering. You and I,
32:30
if I understand correctly, Right. We're both not, quote,
32:33
unquote, native disciples, right?
32:35
>> Dennis: Yep. Yeah.
32:38
>> Loren: You know, so even when I was at the airport
32:40
amongst this really, really handful of
32:43
folks traveling to ga it was like,
32:46
oh, I went to camp with you and you were. I was your
32:50
counselor when you were a teenager and you were
32:52
her counselor when she was a teenager. And
32:56
you know, that kind of, I, I, uh, it lends
32:59
itself to the, to the family
33:03
metaphor of the family reunion for good
33:06
reasons, but also
33:10
I think it's hard for folks to recognize who are
33:13
in that, like, how insular. Makes it towards
33:16
bringing new people into the fold.
33:20
>> Dennis: Yeah, I feel the same way because
33:23
I think, um, our
33:26
camping ministry in the upper Midwest
33:29
is big. I mean, it's very important. It's a very
33:32
central part of the operations of, of
33:34
the region. And so
33:38
it can feel, at least for me, kind of outside of
33:41
it, because I didn't grow up in that. Um.
33:43
>> Loren: Right. And so, and to be clear, like, this is great.
33:46
Yeah, great.
33:48
>> Dennis: No one's putting it down.
33:49
>> Loren: Nope. Yeah. Yeah.
33:52
>> Dennis: But it, it does. There is a kind of a
33:56
outsider pull about that.
33:59
So.
34:01
But I think you
34:04
had talked about what might be
34:07
happening in a few years, that Kansas
34:10
City might be, um, where
34:12
we meet next. Um, one of
34:15
the things that has been a concern, and Jeff Gill
34:18
talks about this is cost.
34:22
>> Loren: Yes.
34:23
>> Dennis: Because registration
34:25
is really expensive now.
34:28
>> Loren: Yeah.
34:29
>> Dennis: If you are someone, and I used to in the past
34:32
would go to some of the dinners, those
34:35
are expensive. Uh, yeah,
34:38
it's just really costly
34:42
to do this. And, um,
34:45
as he was saying, it's hard when there isn't
34:48
a lot of. Where in the past
34:51
maybe, uh, a church would pay
34:54
people's way. They're not, for a lot of
34:57
reasons, doing that anymore. So
35:00
the question is, how do you bring down that cost? And I mean,
35:03
that's not a big theological issue, but it is a
35:06
practical issue.
35:08
>> Loren: Well, I hope we're not being overly critical
35:10
here. Maybe we are. So my apologies
35:13
to listeners and especially disciple listeners if we're
35:16
all really critical. Like we're saying this. I,
35:19
I think, Dennis, you would second this. We're saying this out of like
35:22
deep care and appreciation for a tradition
35:25
and denomination that welcomed us. Mhm.
35:28
Um, but like even as I'm like I'm literally
35:31
here right now recording an exhibit hall
35:34
and like, you know, all the sponsors are
35:37
internal sponsors, which is fine.
35:40
But I'm also thinking to be the.
35:42
>> Dennis: Case it needs to have a lot of outside exhibitors.
35:46
>> Loren: And I'm thinking about even like how the structure of the,
35:49
of the layout of the exhibit hall is that
35:52
external visitors are all kind
35:55
of in the back corner.
35:59
And I feel like if anyone used to have flipped out
36:02
because like the big exhibitors,
36:05
like I won't say who they are, but we all know if you're disciples
36:08
and imagine in your tradition of the um, omnish, like
36:11
they know who the big exhibitors are. Like they're going
36:14
to draw people to them. So wouldn't
36:17
you rather to retain
36:20
and engage the external sponsors or
36:23
exhibitors have people have
36:26
to first encounter those outsiders
36:29
and then walk through those outsiders to
36:32
the big draws. To me that would make more
36:34
sense. Does that make sense? Mm,
36:37
mhm.
36:39
>> Dennis: Yeah, I would agree. I think
36:42
there is this, you know, there's not a whole
36:45
lot, at least from what I remember the exhibit
36:47
hall in Louisville and it sounds like it's the same in
36:50
Memphis, that things
36:53
like that also need to change.
36:57
And I think in some ways to inspire because
37:00
it's a place where people hang out.
37:02
>> Loren: Uh, right, because. And I think like
37:04
Vancouver church giving platform.
37:07
Right. And I'm looking at them, they're kind of like
37:10
buried off at a corner
37:13
and like we need more
37:16
like those are the kind of external
37:20
organizations when we think just about cost. We
37:23
need external church focused organizations like that to,
37:26
to keep coming and subsidize the cost
37:29
of this. And to do that, like we
37:32
need to flip the hall so that people first encounter
37:35
them. At minimum just walk by and see the
37:38
booth, um, and get some traffic.
37:41
So that makes it feel worth their time and money because
37:43
like the giant exhibitors that
37:47
we know who they are, like they're going to get like, I'll
37:50
just say the pension fund is going to get traffic. Like I'm looking
37:53
at the pension fund. Love the pension fund. Pension fund
37:56
is great. They're going to get traffic. And in fairness
37:59
to the pension fund, they're actually towards the back too.
38:01
But to my point, like
38:06
I would put, I would flip it just so again, we're
38:09
engaging external vendors
38:12
and making it worth their time for being here.
38:15
>> Dennis: Mhm. Well, it used to be we would have
38:18
vendors such as Copesbury uh,
38:22
and that was a huge draw and we don't have that
38:25
anymore. And
38:28
you know, I still like to read
38:30
and read actual, uh, physical books. So
38:33
it would be nice if they had things like that because that
38:36
was something that you wanted to go to. You know, there were
38:40
people who sold, you know,
38:42
stoles or.
38:44
Um.
38:45
>> Loren: Yeah, I mean they're all here. Yeah,
38:48
I'm again, I just think like those are the people who should
38:51
be.
38:51
>> Dennis: Like front and center.
38:53
>> Loren: Yeah, front and center. Because like I get,
38:57
I get like these denominational
39:00
ministries gave a lot of money and I want to honor
39:03
them, but they're gonna, they're gonna have a big
39:05
draw just because of who they are,
39:08
because of freestanding relationships.
39:12
So if we're gonna help these
39:14
kind of smaller
39:17
organizations continue to be attracted
39:20
on gain from being here,
39:23
let's get them as much traffic we can. If we're just thinking like practically
39:26
about managing costs, you know.
39:30
>> Dennis: I agree.
39:33
I think though the question also is do we
39:36
need to have things taking
39:39
place like in a big convention center? SMEs
39:42
too. Could that be. And this is in a
39:45
hotel? Um, I don't know.
39:48
That's just something I'm not. I don't
39:51
do logistics like that.
39:52
>> Loren: But I mean, I've wondered about this too. Is
39:55
there certainly there's hotels
39:58
that are pretty big. Like I've been at
40:01
conferences for untriculated, um,
40:04
work conferences that existed like the Gaylord
40:08
or convention. Like hotels of that
40:10
size that are pretty big
40:13
and can handle like I was in
40:16
Gaylord for a non church war conference and
40:19
there's like multiple conventions happening
40:21
at the hotel. And I wonder
40:24
like, could you get a deal there
40:28
to make it more manageable,
40:32
Pay your feud. You know, you're
40:35
booking so many rooms and they.
40:38
I don't know. I don't. I'm not a hospitality
40:41
expert, but I think these are the kind of
40:44
outside the box thoughts we need to think about for sure
40:48
to make this more manageable. And who
40:51
knows, maybe he's already being bounced
40:54
around.
40:56
>> Dennis: So one question I have. Since you have been there,
40:59
I don't know if you've had an opportunity to go to any of the worship
41:02
experiences, um, at
41:05
night. What have those been like,
41:09
have they been good?
41:11
Inspiring. Oh my God,
41:15
horrible.
41:16
>> Loren: I mean Bernice King was ah, an honor,
41:21
uh, humbling and honoring to just be a
41:23
part of that. Challenging to think
41:26
when she. This was a really inspiring story that should
41:29
be lifted up for. I was never aware of. But she
41:32
mentioned how this was pre. The.
41:35
The preamble, the official organization of the
41:37
denomination. But the year before,
41:42
uh, her father, Martin Luther King Jr. Had been invited to
41:45
speak at the gathering. Wow.
41:48
And it was going to be in Dallas. And
41:51
the city officials in Dallas said, hey, you should
41:54
not invite mlk. And it
41:57
was, uh, the leader was Fears. I don't. Can't remember his first
42:00
name or his position. Uh,
42:02
but Fear said, well, we're willing to take
42:05
it elsewhere. Which I think
42:08
is a pretty inspiring move,
42:12
you know, to say, like, we believe in
42:16
inclusion, and that's been part of our
42:19
history from the beginning. Like, I was pretty inspired to hear that.
42:22
Her message was very inspiring,
42:25
um, and powerful. You know,
42:28
I've very much appreciated being in.
42:32
In such a large body at worship. You know,
42:35
it's kind of like a mega M church on the road. So,
42:38
Steve. Uh, and that's been
42:42
often encouraging.
42:44
>> Dennis: Okay, well, that's good to
42:46
hear. Uh, yeah, because
42:50
I think that those are kind of the important.
42:55
Of all the things that happen at a general assembly,
42:58
the worship services wouldn't matter.
43:01
Um, I think so.
43:02
>> Loren: I think so.
43:04
>> Dennis: And, um, I think that there have been, for me, some really good
43:07
experiences and some that
43:10
fell short.
43:12
>> Loren: I mean, there's. There's been a couple of moments where I
43:15
kind of was wondering what's going on, and I
43:18
think that's kind of how these things are. You. Sometimes
43:23
they're trying to. You know, it's like a sermon. Sometimes you try
43:26
to do too much, right?
43:27
>> Dennis: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
43:30
>> Loren: Too much in the sermon, too much in the worship service.
43:37
>> Dennis: So I think maybe one final question that
43:40
I have is,
43:45
and this is kind of going back to Jeff's article,
43:47
is, where do you see
43:50
us as a denomination? Where is our
43:53
future headed?
43:55
>> Loren: Wow.
43:56
>> Dennis: I mean, you know, numbers are not great,
43:59
but that doesn't. I don't want to make it sound like that's,
44:02
you know, we're done, but.
44:06
>> Loren: Well, I think what is continually
44:10
surprising and compelling,
44:13
shocking, is how much, like, there's still a lot of
44:15
institutional money. Like,
44:18
it's not everywhere.
44:21
Um, certainly some organizations or parts have more money than
44:24
others, but, like, there's still a lot of institutional money.
44:29
Like, there's still pockets of
44:31
vitality that are very inspiring.
44:35
Um, yeah, I mean, I think
44:39
it's my prayer that there would be
44:41
revival. And I think.
44:44
I think the only thing I can say is, like,
44:47
I've been reading voices about this and saying
44:50
that, like, we can't. We can't manufacture
44:53
revival. Like, we can just pray and hope that
44:56
when God moves, we recognize it and get on board.
44:59
Yep. So. So maybe that's maybe that's my
45:02
prayer. Is it like
45:05
a. That there would be revival
45:08
in our nation? That uh,
45:11
we would get on board and, and if
45:14
I can make a quick addendum to that too, like this is
45:17
something that I see
45:21
room, I see chatter
45:24
about in evangelical circles about they're happening in Bible
45:26
happening. And I wonder like, are we
45:29
missing out?
45:33
Mhm.
45:34
>> Dennis: Well, I mean, I think that is interesting. If
45:37
you think a few years ago when that all was
45:40
happening in um. Asbury.
45:43
Asbury, there were some people that were
45:45
equally dismissive of it.
45:47
>> Loren: And.
45:50
>> Dennis: I think that there will always be people,
45:53
especially in mainline churches, that will be dismissive of
45:56
us. But I also think
45:59
there will be people, maybe not
46:02
large numbers, pockets, that
46:05
will be interested and that if there is
46:07
revival, that's kind of how I think it will happen.
46:10
Not in large big countries, but
46:13
in kind of pockets. And
46:16
I think that's what
46:19
to keep an eye out for and to have.
46:21
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
46:24
Dennis, I feel like we've done this before, either
46:27
you and I, or like
46:30
maybe I've done this with other guests, but I feel like we should just like say
46:33
a prayer for our
46:35
denomination and for our
46:38
nation and our, our
46:41
churches.
46:42
>> Dennis: Yeah, I've done that before. You're keeping in good
46:45
company with our mutual friend Jeff Mitchell,
46:47
who I think always wants to end an interview
46:50
with prayer
46:53
that is not unusual. All
46:56
right, I'd be willing to do that if you like.
46:59
>> Loren: Okay, go for it.
47:00
>> Dennis: All right. God, we thank you for
47:03
gathering us here to chat and to talk.
47:08
And we do pray for revival
47:12
and not just within our
47:15
church, though that is needed, but within our nation
47:18
because it is sorely needed.
47:22
And importantly, give us the eyes to see
47:25
and the ears to hear when
47:27
that is happening. M. Give us the heart
47:30
to know when that might be moving within
47:33
us
47:36
and help us to be able to spread that good
47:39
news to those that we meet,
47:42
regardless of who they are. So that
47:46
your word, your love and your good news
47:49
might be proclaimed throughout the land.
47:53
In Jesus name we pray.
47:56
>> Loren: Amen. Um, Amen.
47:57
Um, well, for my
48:00
podcast to close this out,
48:04
Dennis, may God's peace with.
48:06
>> Dennis: You and ah, as the Lutherans
48:09
like to say, and also with you.
48:18
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
48:21
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