Latest / Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute / 77: The Betrayal Bind with Michelle Mays: Healing the Attachment Wound After Infidelity

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77: The Betrayal Bind with Michelle Mays: Healing the Attachment Wound After Infidelity · Beyond the Facade with Choose Recovery Services and Blueprint Institute

0:00
Hey everybody. OK, so I got a question for you.
0:02
Have you ever read the book The Betrayal Bind?
0:04
I am ridiculously excited today because I'm Michelle Mays
0:09
joining me and we're going to be going through it.
0:11
And specifically the question I want to ask you is what doesn't
0:15
make sense? What do you feel your partner's
0:17
repeating to you over and over again?
0:20
And I want you to notice the things that Michelle says today
0:22
that hit a little bit differently.
0:24
Why can you maybe hear it from Michelle when you couldn't hear
0:27
it from your partner? I know that was a part of my
0:30
journey. We have several different topics
0:31
in mind, so we're going to jump into it.
0:36
Welcome to Beyond the Facade podcast.
0:38
I'm your host, Luke Gordon, and I'm thrilled to have you join me
0:41
in the space today. What we're going to be doing is
0:42
diving deep into the trials and triumphs and truths of seeking
0:46
authenticity. Becoming your true self isn't
0:49
about a single action or a moment.
0:51
It's a relentless pursuit, a commitment to self that reveals
0:54
the rich connection and meaning that our life has to offer.
0:57
So whether this is your? First time tuning in or you're a
1:00
regular listener? Know this.
1:02
What you're building here goes beyond a conversation.
1:04
You're here to challenge, to change, and to celebrate the
1:07
incredible journey of becoming your authentic self.
1:10
Because when you dare to show up fully, the rewards are
1:13
immeasurable. So welcome to Beyond the Facade.
1:15
Let's get started. All right, Michelle Mays is here
1:21
with me, and I'm going to talk a little bit about you, Michelle.
1:24
And then you defend yourself and tell everybody what I didn't get
1:27
right, OK. Sounds good.
1:30
So in our men's groups and just one-on-one work with two
1:32
recovery services, we are often getting somebody that comes to a
1:36
console or an intake that just says, hey, I just got caught.
1:39
I've been doing this hiding and or I'm lacking empathy.
1:43
My partner says I'm not empathetic and I don't get it.
1:47
I feel like I'm trying. I feel like I'm doing the work.
1:50
I guess those are two different scenarios.
1:51
The guy that got caught versus the person that's been in
1:54
recovery for a little bit recovery and they're trying to
1:56
get empathy. I think the first time I read
1:59
your book, I was like, wow, this is like a different, this is the
2:03
concepts that I feel like I kind of I've already read, but
2:06
they're hitting differently this time.
2:07
So obviously we make it a part of our men's groups to have men
2:10
read your book. But I just wanted, I wondered if
2:14
what from an introduction for you standpoint, besides writing
2:17
the book, what's your areas of expertise tell us about you.
2:21
Yeah. So I've been in the field for
2:23
over 20 years and I've been working the whole time with sex
2:27
addiction, betrayal trauma, trauma, family of origin based
2:33
trauma, childhood trauma and relationship issues.
2:36
And so because I have a counseling center, so we have
2:40
the Relational Recovery Institute, what that has allowed
2:44
me to do over the time that I've been in the field is to work
2:46
with the entire system, because we often have the couple here
2:51
seeing different therapists in Group, and we get to work with
2:54
the system of the relationship and all the different parts of
2:57
it. So both the betraying partner,
3:00
the betrayed partner, the relationship itself, and I think
3:03
I'm a system thinker. So that has allowed me to really
3:06
understand all the moving parts and how they interact and all of
3:10
that. Over over time as I've done that
3:12
work, I've developed a model for working with partner betrayal.
3:16
And of course, the book is out there in the world.
3:18
And then the clinical work and the coaching all continue.
3:22
When you decided to write the book, was there a catalyst that
3:25
was like, OK, I want to do this because there's a missing piece
3:28
here? Was it just you wanted to share
3:29
your some pieces? Like what?
3:31
Was there one major catalyst? It wasn't a major catalyst.
3:34
I had been thinking about writing a book for a really long
3:37
time and working on it. Like in bits and pieces.
3:40
I would say it's changed what the book actually looked like as
3:45
I did the clinical work myself with couples and individuals and
3:51
really started to formulate a model.
3:54
We're working with it differently that was an
3:57
attachment based model and then that all sort of landed in the
4:01
book and continues to be refined.
4:04
I continue to think about it and refine it and we're going to
4:07
have a new version of the book coming out in March.
4:09
That's like I'm adding some stuff to it that I've just
4:13
refined over the past three years since it's been out.
4:16
That's exciting, how much stuff is getting refined and and not
4:19
asking to let the cat out of the bag, but.
4:21
Yeah, no, no, no, we're going to.
4:22
I'm adding a couple new chapters, I'm adding some new
4:25
sections, I'm updating language imagery around it and stuff.
4:30
And then there'll be a new audio of all of that as well.
4:33
A new audio of the book, too. That's really cool.
4:36
Kind of reminds me of like when I recorded a podcast like 2
4:38
years ago. I'm like Oh my goodness, I want
4:40
to do that. A new version of that same
4:42
podcast. Yeah, That's cool.
4:44
OK. So you ready for my first
4:45
question for you? Yeah, please.
4:47
OK, so one of the things that I love about your book is how you
4:51
put words to something that so many people feel but can't quite
4:55
name. And that's the, we'll call it
4:57
painful tension between where the person who's hurt you is
5:01
also the person you love and long for.
5:05
So you call that the betrayal bind off the book.
5:07
But can you, can you tell us a little bit about what inspired
5:10
you to call it that? And what does that dynamic look
5:12
like and feel like for someone that's living in it?
5:15
Yeah, absolutely. So I draw a lot on Jennifer
5:18
Freyd's work and she's the founder of the trail trauma
5:20
theory and then also on Bulby and attachment theory.
5:25
And but Jennifer Freyd, a lot of her work really came out of the
5:30
work that was done with children and children who are caught in a
5:34
family system where the caregiver of the parent is
5:37
unsafe and yet they are still totally reliant on that
5:41
caregiver. And that betrayal, the betrayal
5:46
that happened, and of course it happens on a continuum.
5:48
It could be mild to severe. That betrayal by the parent who
5:53
the child is still dependent on creates a set of dynamics that
5:57
are really, really unique and a set of conflict inside the
6:00
child. And then if you think about
6:03
that. So that is what caught my
6:05
interest as I read all the research on this and went back
6:08
to the original studies on the different attachment styles.
6:11
And is that these, this exact dynamic is what happens in Adult
6:15
Betrayal as well because it is our primary attachment figure in
6:20
the same way that our parent was our primary attachment figure,
6:22
partner is now our primary attachment figure.
6:27
We're dependent on them. Even though we're grown-ups now
6:30
and we can take care of ourselves and all of that, we're
6:32
still dependent on them emotionally.
6:35
And when we are pair bonded with somebody and in a romantic
6:38
relationship with them, that connection feels like it is a
6:43
part of our survival. It's part of our our emotional
6:47
and physical survival. And so that dilemma of the
6:51
person I'm my primary attachment figures now, the person who has
6:54
hurt me and betrayed me sets up the same conflicts in an adult's
7:01
person that often gets set up in children in parental
7:05
relationships. And so I really took a look at
7:08
all of that and how to then translate that into, OK, what
7:11
happens for us as adults in our romantic relationships when we
7:15
experience betrayal like that? What happens in our attachment
7:18
system? What happens in our threat
7:20
response system? You know what, what behaviors
7:24
manifest out of that? Like how do we start to cope
7:26
with it? And so all of that started to
7:28
kind of unfold then into like the braving model and the
7:33
betrayal bind and all of that. What?
7:36
So when you talk about the bind you're talking about, are you
7:39
talking about the attachment piece from one person to the
7:41
other? When I'm talking about the bind,
7:43
what I'm talking about is that bind of I need you and you are
7:49
the person who has harmed me and I want closeness with you, and
7:55
you are also the person who has harmed me.
7:58
So when we experience betrayal, and especially in this bind, the
8:02
betrayal bind itself, what happens is it fractures 2
8:06
things. And these two things are our
8:09
most essential core attachment needs.
8:12
And they are #1 the need for a coherent self.
8:17
Like we actually need to have a coherent sense of who we are
8:20
that we can depend on and draw on, and that we have a sense of
8:25
self trust with ourselves. And that gets damaged
8:29
significantly in betrayal. And 2nd is our sense of
8:33
belonging. So our need to feel that we are
8:37
safely connected, that we belong, that we matter, that
8:42
also gets fragmented. So the betrayal bind puts us in
8:45
conflicts around these two needs.
8:49
And then now there's this like, well, if I honor myself, maybe I
8:54
lose belonging. Or maybe I go for belonging and
8:59
I lose myself, and now we're in this incredible conflict with
9:04
our attachment system and threat systems, firing different ways
9:06
and trying to navigate. How do I get these two needs met
9:11
while I'm in this bind where my primary partner has hurt me?
9:15
When you talk about belonging, I just want to understand a little
9:18
better belonging to because I feel like that's the men because
9:23
that's who usually I work with are going to be like belonging.
9:26
Who is she talking about when she says belonging?
9:30
So belonging would be the felt fence inside of you, that you
9:35
are connected to others, you are connected to your partner and
9:39
that you matter. We all need to have a sense that
9:43
we belong and matter and are significant to others.
9:50
So that sense of belonging is primary to our survival.
9:54
If you think about it, our biggest survival strategy has
9:57
been to create groups and bond with other people and form up
10:01
into communities. That's how we have survived as a
10:05
race for as long as we have. So it's that core sense of I
10:09
need to belong to other people to to a community.
10:13
I need to have a sense that I matter and I fit in here
10:16
somewhere. And I think about the
10:18
destructive nature of a partner that's has a bunch of shame.
10:22
The betraying partner has a bunch of shame.
10:23
That's like, please don't talk to people.
10:25
I don't want to be embarrassed. You know, they don't say that
10:28
that's not the words that they use, but it is a so much shame
10:31
involved of like don't talk to the kids, don't talk to your
10:34
parents, don't talk to your friends.
10:35
Even though that's not overtly said, it's at least implied.
10:39
And I think about you talking about belonging.
10:42
It's that can be very destructive to keep those
10:46
secrets even though your partner knows about them.
10:49
Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I don't blame them for blame.
10:52
I don't blame the folks who feel that way, because the belonging
10:57
is fraught in that situation, right?
11:00
Because what if you tell people who then make up all kinds of
11:04
nonsense about who you are and what this means and start to
11:07
treat you a certain way? And so I really understand the
11:10
fear that comes with that and the need for discretion and
11:15
thoughtfulness around who you do tell and that you make sure that
11:18
the people that are being told are safe people and can hold it
11:21
in a way that is safe relationally.
11:23
Because otherwise you can do a lot of damage to your sense of
11:26
belonging in your larger community and that kind of
11:28
thing. Yeah, yeah.
11:30
What have you seen has been some helpful ways to navigate that,
11:33
knowing who's safe and who's not?
11:36
I think I have a list somewhere of what are safe people to help
11:40
betrayed partners in particular think about this.
11:43
But I think it's good also for the betraying partner, like #1
11:47
they're people that can actually hold a confidence.
11:50
So they're not going to go tell other people the thing that you
11:53
tell them. They're going to actually hold
11:55
your confidence. Number 2, they are not going to
11:58
have judgement. They're people who are going to
12:01
be able to say, this is your journey, and I'm here to support
12:04
you in your journey and let you make the decisions that you need
12:08
to make. So they're not going to have an
12:10
agenda for you. They're not going to have an
12:11
opinion about what you should be doing and how you should be
12:14
doing it. They're going to be able to hold
12:16
space for you and let you navigate and figure out what you
12:20
need to do yourself. And then they're going to be
12:23
available. They're going to be who are
12:25
actually available when you call and when you need help and can
12:30
be there and be a listening ear. And last, if at all possible,
12:35
they're going to have a pretty calm nervous system.
12:38
Yeah. So that when you call them,
12:40
rather than them jacking you up more, if you're already pretty
12:44
jacked up nervous system wise, they're actually a calming
12:47
calming force to help you calm down and come back into a
12:51
grounded state. So do you have a list of these
12:53
people we can just like post out there and we.
12:55
Don't we don't. I don't, Yeah, no.
12:57
But I do think it is helpful to have a sense of what am I
12:59
looking for in terms of a safe person.
13:02
Yeah, yeah. I think most of the person
13:04
they're betraying of just trust your partner to let her navigate
13:07
that. Who's safe for her and who's
13:09
not? And don't you don't decide for
13:10
her who's going to be safe and who's not.
13:13
Yeah, yeah. Or I think having a really good
13:16
discussion about it together if possible.
13:18
That's not always possible, but I think to me as much as
13:22
possible to have some agreement about who are we going to bring
13:26
into this and who are we not going to bring into this and how
13:28
are we going to navigate that can be helpful.
13:30
OK, so in your book you talk about the different wounds that
13:34
emerge from betrayal and emotional attachment and sexual.
13:38
So those are the wounds, emotional attachment and sexual.
13:41
And I love that it feels powerful to me because often
13:45
people lump it all together underneath the word betrayal
13:47
when really these wounds hit different or different layers of
13:51
a person. So I guess can you help us
13:53
understand the difference between these types of loans and
13:55
how they interact and feed into another during the recovery
13:59
process? Yeah.
14:00
So these are like 3 different injuries that all overlap,
14:05
impact one another, they all touch one another.
14:09
So the first one is the attachment injury and that is
14:11
the loss of safety and trust in the relationship.
14:16
So it is basically the damage to your bond, to your relational
14:19
bond with one another and your sense of safety and connection.
14:23
Both people experienced an attachment injury after
14:26
discovery. So the betrayed partner
14:30
experiences this profound loss of trust and connection, but the
14:34
betraying partner also, because the relationship is often on the
14:37
line, they are now plunged into enormous uncertainty and
14:42
potential loss of the relationship, and their
14:44
attachment system goes haywire as well.
14:46
And they also feel like they're in this sort of attachment
14:49
injury territory. That could be for both people.
14:53
The second injury is the emotional and psychological
14:55
injury, and that has to do with being lied to over time as the
15:01
secret sexual behavior has been hidden and covered up.
15:06
And all that has gone into maintaining a double life or
15:09
maintaining the secrets has basically robbed the betrayed
15:14
partner of their ability to know what their reality is.
15:17
And it has separated them from their ability to know their
15:22
reality and trust that they know their reality.
15:25
So that's the emotional and psychological injury.
15:29
And then the last injury is the sexual injury, and the sexual
15:32
injury is the damage to your sexuality as a result of the
15:38
sexual betrayal. So again, for betrayed partners,
15:42
that looks like a range of things depending on how the
15:47
secret behavior has impacted the sexual relationship.
15:51
But for almost all betrayed partners, there's a lot of
15:54
damage to sexual self esteem, body image, sense of being
16:00
wanted, desired, all of that kind of thing.
16:03
So all of that is happening for the betrayed partner.
16:07
For the betraying partner, the sexual injury is around what is
16:12
going on with them sexually and what has been happening in their
16:16
sexuality. If they're dealing with an
16:18
addiction, if they're dealing with infidelity, like there's a
16:22
lot of injury driving the behavior, a lot of injury as a
16:27
result of the behavior for the betraying partner as well.
16:33
So those are the three injuries. And again, they touch each
16:35
other. They're not discreet like they
16:37
run into one another. OK.
16:39
That's what the next question was, was is there anyone, is
16:42
there any one of the wounds that tends to get overlooked even in
16:44
therapy? Do you notice?
16:47
Or do they all do? I think the sexual injury is
16:49
talked about the very, very least.
16:51
I think that, yeah, it's kind of amazing to me how little sex is
16:55
actually talked about even in sex addiction recovery.
16:58
So that one is the one that tends to get overlooked and I
17:01
think just not even thought about in certain ways.
17:03
Like we just did this. We had our, we have a couple's
17:07
mastermind and we had our intensive and we did this work
17:11
on having the the trade partners in the mastermind name.
17:16
These are the sexual injuries that I've carried and had their
17:20
partners really listen and hear them articulate that.
17:25
And we spent a whole big thing doing that.
17:27
Well, lift it. And we had the betraying
17:30
partners name their injuries and what injuries that they felt
17:35
they had sustained through years of addiction, years of how they
17:40
were, how they were raised and socialized and all of that.
17:44
And we have the betrayed partners listen to that and have
17:47
them really learn about each other's injuries in that way.
17:49
That sounds very healing. Yeah, it was really, Yeah.
17:53
It was a very, very good. Everybody learned a lot and it
17:57
just doesn't have a lot of airtime.
17:59
There's not a lot of spaces where people get to talk about
18:02
that in that way and articulate it in that way.
18:04
When you dock sexual injuries, can you give us like an example
18:07
and then what they would repeat and then I'm just probably being
18:09
more fascinated here for a moment.
18:11
What is what does that look like when you go back and forth?
18:14
Can you answer that? Yeah, I think that like one of
18:18
the sexual injuries that the in this case it's women and men.
18:22
It was women who were the betrayed partner, men who were
18:24
the betraying partner. One of the injuries that the
18:27
women talked about a lot was just the loss of their own
18:32
sexual growth, their own sexual development, their own sexual
18:36
experiences. Like they really had years and
18:41
decades where they had not gotten to grow into who they
18:45
were supposed to be sexually because they were in such a
18:48
stunted relationship. Some of them were in
18:50
relationships with people who were not having sex with them
18:53
while having sex outside of the relationship.
18:56
So there was profound loss around losing their sexual
19:00
selves in the relationship. So that was a big injury that
19:05
the betrayed partners. That was one that they talked
19:08
about. That's that's impactful to even
19:10
hear that. Yeah, a big one.
19:12
I see what you're saying when you're saying.
19:14
I don't know if it's talked about very much or whatever
19:16
words you used. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:20
And then I'm thinking for the betrayed partners, there was
19:24
articulation. There's a lot of articulation
19:26
about the socialization of sex is supposed to be a certain way.
19:33
And this like performance pressure, this I'm supposed to
19:37
be ready for sex at any time. It's not vulnerable.
19:41
There was a lot of grief for them.
19:43
A. Lot of loss.
19:44
A lot of grief and loss around not being taught about
19:49
sexuality, not being informed about it, having a lot of shame
19:53
based messages, being exposed to things super young and then
19:58
coming in and into sexuality where they were really split off
20:02
from themselves and their sexual self was split off from the rest
20:07
of them. So a lot of grief and loss and
20:09
articulation of that that we sort of waited around in a
20:13
bunch. So that gives you an idea of
20:15
some of the types of sexual injuries.
20:18
That's really important. And I think about phase two of
20:21
recovery work, I think about new meaning making out of this, like
20:25
what was it? What did we think it was before,
20:27
how a shame tied to it, and now actually was it?
20:30
And that shared experience and that healing through it?
20:33
That's yeah, yeah. And we did a lot of talking,
20:36
too, about like, what is it like to have sober sex?
20:40
Oh, really? Yeah.
20:41
What's it like to have sober sex where you're integrated and
20:46
you're present and you're no longer dissociated and in shame?
20:52
And what happens when you're trying to be vulnerable and
20:55
you're used to being in shape? Like just big conversations
20:58
about those topics. That must have been rich.
21:02
That must have been really rich, because that's the stuff we get
21:04
to talk about, right? Yeah.
21:06
You don't get to talk about and you really don't get to talk
21:07
about it in a group and you really don't talk about it in a
21:09
Coed group. So yeah, really rich
21:13
conversations, yeah. I just love this world because
21:16
we get a chance to talk about the stuff we don't normally talk
21:18
about, and that's something that I think it's cool that you've
21:21
created that environment appear to be talked about, especially
21:23
in the group setting. Just normalize what the
21:26
sexuality looks like. Yes.
21:29
Healthy sexual response. OK.
21:31
Another question I had for you was one of the terms that you
21:34
use that really resonated with me was, and I think I know it
21:39
did with some of your listeners or our listeners because they're
21:42
in our groups, but was the attachment ambivalence?
21:45
And I think when the first time that men hear that word, the men
21:48
that I work with, there's like this inner tug of war where
21:51
they're they're noticing their partners feels pulled both
21:55
towards and away from their person who betrayed them.
21:58
And it's really confusing. And I think we kind of talked
22:00
about it a little bit, but I think if you could provide any
22:03
type of clarity on it's confusing and it's painful and
22:07
it's often misjudged by the person who's with the betraying
22:12
partner of what that's all about the Tugum.
22:15
So can you just unpack anything we haven't talked about already?
22:18
I mean, to me the most important thing to understand about it is
22:21
that it's a physiological response.
22:24
It is a bodily based thing that is happening.
22:28
You're seeing it in terms of behavior, right?
22:31
You're seeing it manifest in behavior, but it's actually
22:36
bodily based instinctual responses that are happening
22:39
that are then manifesting in the behavior.
22:41
So normally our attachment system and our threat response
22:45
system work In Sync with one another.
22:48
So our attachment system is designed so that if we feel
22:51
distressed, it nudges us and says reach out to your partner
22:56
because they're your source of comfort and stabilization when
23:00
you're distressed. If we have a bad day at work, we
23:02
have something happen, we text our partner, we call our
23:04
partner, we're we tell them at the end of the day because
23:07
that's how our attachment and threat systems work well
23:10
together. What happens when betrayal
23:12
enters the picture is that now the threat system and attachment
23:15
system oppose each other. They are now in conflict with
23:20
each other instead of working well together.
23:22
So the attachment system is saying it's still prompting the
23:25
exact same way. It's saying you're in the most
23:28
significant distress you've ever been in.
23:31
Your person is your partner and you need them.
23:35
They're the ones who are going to help you with this.
23:38
So reach out for connection to them because they are your
23:42
source of comfort and regulation and stability.
23:45
So the attachment system is doing what it's always done.
23:48
It's saying reach out to them. The threat response system is
23:52
saying, wait a minute, this person is actually the person
23:57
who hurt you. And we need to protect from
23:59
them. We need to fight with them.
24:02
We need to run away from them, we need to withdraw from them.
24:05
We need to somehow stay safe from them.
24:08
So instead of these two systems working well, now they're in
24:11
opposition. And what happens in this dynamic
24:14
is that we do all the things. So sometimes we are like, I need
24:21
you to hold me, I'm crying, I need you to talk with me, I need
24:24
your attention, I need support from you.
24:27
Sometimes we're doing that and other times we're like, I never
24:32
want to see you again. Everyone want to talk to you
24:34
again. I hate you.
24:36
You've caused me the worst pain in my life.
24:38
We're fighting. We're in a fight response and
24:42
these can switch so fast and so rapidly.
24:46
So rapidly. So far, all quickly and I think
24:49
what it's important to know because from the outside you can
24:52
just be like, what exactly do you want from me?
24:55
Do you want my empathy and support or do you want me to
24:58
leave you alone? What do you want?
25:00
I don't know what you want. They don't know what they want
25:02
either because they're caught in this conflict inside of them and
25:07
both systems are firing at the same time, but giving them
25:11
different messages about what to do.
25:14
And so they're caught in a bodily based dilemma and then
25:18
they're just acting it out in all these different ways in the
25:21
relationship. They're just trying to get to
25:23
safety. Both systems are thinking this
25:28
is how we'll get to safety. The attachment system is like
25:31
connection is what will give us safety.
25:33
The response system is protection will give us safety.
25:36
So the safety messages are also in conflict.
25:40
And so again, that's why the behaviour can look lots of
25:44
different ways. I think if you're a betraying
25:47
partner and you're dealing with this and everybody does, this is
25:51
what happens when this is the dilemma that comes out of being
25:56
injured by your primary attachment figure.
25:59
Children do the exact same thing.
26:01
In the studies that were done with children and parents, exact
26:04
same things happen. So if you're a betraying partner
26:08
and this is going on, part of what you want to do is you want
26:12
to just understand what it is and that the betrayed partner is
26:15
not unsure of their own mind. They're not like they don't know
26:21
what they really want. It's not about that.
26:25
It's about what's happening in their bodies and in these two
26:28
primitive systems, instinctual systems, and those are just
26:32
driving things for them. So as much as you can say, what
26:38
do you need right now? Do you feel like you need some
26:42
distance right in this moment? Do you feel like you need some
26:45
connection in this moment? I'm good with either one.
26:50
I can give you either one, but what do you feel like you need
26:54
right now? Because one of the things that I
26:56
work with the trade partners on is instead of just, once you
27:00
understand this, instead of just letting it drive you and you're
27:04
just sort of like acting it out. Like you're picking a fight.
27:09
Rather than saying, I actually have spent all day being super
27:13
angry at you in my head and I need some distance tonight or I
27:17
am going to have a big fight with you.
27:19
I'm going to have a rumble because I need to feel distance
27:23
and protection from you. So I'm trying to help them use
27:25
their words and ask for what they need or I need to be close
27:30
to you. I need some kind of connection
27:31
with you this evening. So that and then for the
27:35
betraying partner to be responsive or to also interrupt
27:39
what's happening and say, what do you need?
27:41
I really want to give you what you need, but I don't know what
27:43
it is right now. Do you know?
27:45
And I understand you might not know, right?
27:48
And that's OK, we can try some things.
27:51
So giving people a way to know what's happening and then
27:54
navigate it together. Is there a difference between
27:58
them? Just thinking this question does
28:00
this just barely came up for me. Is there a difference in
28:03
responsiveness in the tune? Is those are those different
28:07
things? Responsiveness and attunement.
28:10
Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about attunement,
28:12
and I was thinking attunement and consistency is what's going
28:15
to create a secure attachment. If I'm in tune and I'm
28:18
consistent in how I show up, then that'll create an
28:20
opportunity for secure attachment.
28:21
And then I thought it was this word responsive.
28:23
And I'm like, this matters. I think that's a consistency
28:26
thing, right? Can my partner expect me to show
28:28
up and respond? Yeah, I think can they expect
28:31
and then I think of responsiveness as the behavior.
28:35
I guess that's what comes up for me is like attunement is the
28:38
presence. I'm actually present and tuning
28:40
into what's happening here. I'm showing up for it.
28:44
The responsiveness is and then I'm going to respond to it.
28:47
I'm going to actually do something here.
28:50
And consistently because if I'm sometimes I can show up and
28:52
sometimes I can't. And knowing not it's not about
28:54
perfection, but it's about my partner.
28:57
And we'll start to get the sense that I am going to be responsive
29:00
instead of sometimes I will, sometimes I will.
29:03
Yeah, and I think, you know, I always think of Sue Johnson, the
29:06
founder of Emotionally Focused Therapy for Couples, and she
29:09
always emphasized that the attunement, the presence piece,
29:14
it's far more important than knowing what to do.
29:18
Yeah. If you just show up and are
29:20
like, I see you and I hear you and it sounds miserable right
29:25
now, or it sounds confounding right now, but I'm here, I'm
29:28
here. Can we highlight that and, well,
29:31
tell me if this is OK? I got really, really excited
29:35
when you just said that because I feel like a lot of a lot of
29:37
betraying partners are there, but they're not talking, they're
29:41
not saying anything. They're walled on.
29:43
They're frozen. They're often frozen.
29:45
Yeah, frozen. So it's the that there is.
29:49
There's still action taken in when you show up, you're still
29:51
using words, you're still connecting.
29:54
Yeah. And I think truly, I think for
29:56
the betraying partner, a lot of times that lack of talking is a
30:00
freeze response for them because they're in the same body, they
30:04
have the same things firing inside of them.
30:08
So they also have this sense of I also want connection, but man,
30:15
that connection feels pretty dangerous right now.
30:18
And so then I want some protection from the danger.
30:22
And so they can get in that conflict and freeze right in it.
30:28
And then they don't have the words because they're so frozen.
30:31
So I think sometimes it's simply saying I am here and I don't
30:36
know what to say, or I'm here, I'm here and I'm a bit frozen,
30:42
but I'm trying to be here, if you can even say that, yeah.
30:45
And even just and it sometimes it feels so wrong in that moment
30:48
to say I don't know what to do next, but it's so important to
30:51
be able to even voice that. Yeah.
30:53
And it's also welcome most of the time.
30:58
And I think that's something to really know is that what most
31:04
betrayed partners are trying to get is a felt sense that you're
31:07
there. They just want to have, they
31:10
just want to be able to feel you, if that makes sense.
31:12
They want to be able to energetically feel that you are
31:15
there. And so if you're there and
31:18
you're just, and you're saying, I don't really know what to say
31:20
or do to help, but I am here. You'll be amazed at how much of
31:26
that, how far that goes, and how much that helps calm your
31:31
partner's nervous system down because that's what they're
31:34
looking for. They're just looking for you to
31:36
be there with them. That I love that so much.
31:40
Let's have that be something they start to wrap out with,
31:42
which is maybe the part of for the betraying partner.
31:47
What can be measured here? Because we're us.
31:49
As I'll speak to the men that I work with as we're very goal
31:53
oriented, action logical, which gets in the way of a lot.
31:56
And they notice a lot of measuring can be done.
31:58
And it's like, oh, it's not working right.
32:00
It's not working. So any extra words of
32:03
encouragement for the betraying partner as they sit with her,
32:06
the person they betrayed? Yeah, I get that because it is,
32:10
it is like, well, I'm showing up and it's not changing anything
32:15
or I'm not seeing it result in something really tangible right
32:18
in the moment kind of thing. And I would say if you think
32:22
about your own healing process that you're in and how much work
32:26
you're putting in to see a tangible result, sometimes
32:30
you're putting in loads of work before you see a tangible result
32:34
in your own recovery. And it's the same in the
32:36
relationship to. So to know every time you show
32:41
up, what you've done is you've built like a little building
32:45
block in of trust, like you brought back a tiny little
32:52
building block of trust in the relationship.
32:55
And what you're doing is you're building those overtime, you're
32:58
adding more and more in and it does eventually show up in the
33:03
relationship. And often I think it shows up
33:06
sooner than you think, you know what I mean?
33:08
You'll start to see changes when you're reliable in that way
33:13
because your partner's nervous system starts to calm down.
33:16
When they know that they can get to you, they can get some
33:19
connection with you that feels safe.
33:22
And it can be really hard, even though the ones, the building
33:24
box you've already recognized and saw marked improvement, it's
33:27
hard to remember those when there's dysregulation and see
33:30
those. And it's easy to forget about
33:31
those or think that they don't exist anymore.
33:34
Yeah. And I would just also add that
33:39
most of the time, this is a very large overstatement I'm about to
33:43
make. OK, I'm going to make it.
33:45
Anyway, I like that you Fred, so go back.
33:48
Do it anyway. The overstatement I'm going to
33:51
make is often the betraying partner is more avoidantly
33:54
attached and the betrayed partner is more anxiously
33:58
attached. Now there are plenty of couples
34:01
that this is reversed for, but I'm going to just talk to this
34:04
dynamic for a minute because I think that avoidant people who
34:09
are avoidantly attached to down regulate to manage their
34:13
dysregulation can look at somebody who up regulates to
34:17
manage their dysregulation and be like, man, they are
34:20
dysregulated. But the reality is, if you're in
34:26
a moment with your partner and you are feeling shut down, or
34:31
you are feeling frozen, or you are feeling like you want to
34:35
withdraw, you are in profound dysregulation.
34:41
Don't tell me that now I'll have to do something about it.
34:44
Right. You are in profound
34:45
dysregulation, you just handle it differently.
34:49
Some of the goal is like, how do we know that we're both
34:53
dysregulated here? Because that's the big challenge
34:56
with betrayal is both people are often profoundly dysregulated
35:01
all the time and then trying to reach each other in the middle
35:05
of it. So I think that's important to
35:07
just say to that it dysregulation is not happening
35:10
on one side, it's really on both sides.
35:13
So, OK, so can I throw that back at you and then let everybody
35:16
know I'm not mansplaining right now because that's, I know
35:19
Jealous said it better, but I want to throw it back at you,
35:22
OK. Which is be careful when I say
35:24
it's just my partner that's dysregulated.
35:26
It's not me. It's a trauma response.
35:29
I'm fine there. You're probably projecting
35:31
things. You're probably putting stuff on
35:33
them that exists inside of you. Because you're actually in a
35:36
trauma too. You're actually in a when the
35:38
relationship is on the line, both people are in a relational
35:40
trauma. Yeah, if there's fear of loss,
35:44
right, Fear of all that. Yeah.
35:47
Yeah, that was good. We should have started off with
35:49
that. That was amazing.
35:51
Well, thank you. There was only like 6 questions
35:54
I didn't get to. So guys, just please read the
35:57
book over again if you've already read it.
35:59
Like it's there's so much valuable.
36:01
And what are the cool things you have going on at your
36:03
organization that we should know about?
36:05
We have our coaching program for betrayed partners, so it's
36:09
called Breathing Hope. Become the hero of your betrayal
36:11
story. And it's a 12 week experience.
36:14
I really feel like it's almost like going to like residential
36:18
treatment for 90 days or something.
36:21
It's very immersive program and we put you through really
36:26
understanding everything about what's happening for you and
36:29
your attachment system and then helping you gain the skills and
36:33
tools to change your relationship with yourself
36:37
profoundly and your relationship with your partner.
36:41
So we really want you to learn how to trust yourself in a whole
36:45
different way, understand where your power really lies, and then
36:50
operate from that in your relationship with yourself and
36:54
your relationships. So that's what we're doing in
36:56
that program. And so that's available for
37:00
people to take a look at, but that's something that is going
37:02
on right now. That's awesome.
37:04
What are people saying about it? Honestly, you can go to the
37:07
website and read a ton of testimony, folks, but honestly,
37:12
like it is a joy. I do the calls with everybody in
37:15
the group on every Monday. I've been doing it for five
37:17
years now. It is a joy every week to show
37:22
up and work with folks and see them take such a big risks to
37:28
change their lives and to change their relationships, whether
37:31
they're staying or they're leaving their partner and stuff.
37:34
So yeah, I love it. It's a huge joy.
37:36
So we'll put the details in the show notes.
37:38
Not going to stop a word for just audio wise.
37:41
Where do people go to find out more?
37:42
You can go to michellemace.com, go to the website to learn about
37:46
it. Yeah.
37:47
And there's a ton of resources on the website that you can go
37:50
through. So great.
37:52
Thanks for telling us about it. Thank you for your sacrifice
37:55
Michelle, for not just coming today, but just in general for
37:59
the people that are hurting and are feel so alone.
38:02
Yeah. You've made such a big impact in
38:05
my life and then the men that I work with and it means so much
38:09
to us. So just wanted to say thank you.
38:11
And is there anything else you want to share?
38:13
No, I'm so glad. I'm so happy that it is making
38:16
an impact. And thank you for having me.
38:18
It's been a great conversation, so I appreciate it.
38:20
Of course. All right, Thanks everybody.
38:25
Hey, thanks for joining us today if this.
38:27
Is something that you connected with.
38:28
I'd love to meet with you more and talk about it.
38:31
So what you can do is go to chooserecoveryservices.com.
38:34
Or check the show. Notes and there what we can do
38:36
is set up a quick conversation we need.
38:38
Thanks so much for listening to Beyond the Facade.
38:41
Where we unmask the authentic cell.