Latest / MESSmerized - Funny and faith based encouragement in marriage , family , Christian parenting , and finding purpose / Episode 144: Understanding Eating Disorders and Disordered Eating with Sallye Clark

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Episode 144: Understanding Eating Disorders and Disordered Eating with Sallye Clark · MESSmerized - Funny and faith based encouragement in marriage , family , Christian parenting , and finding purpose

• 0:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is Cynthia Gannoff and you are listening to the mesmerized podcast.
• 0:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey friends, welcome to podcast.
• 0:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad you're joining us today.
• 0:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I did not think it was possible that we could cover a topic that has never been covered on all the podcasts I've done over the years, but I think we've got a new one today.
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so before we jump in, I want to give you a quick heads up.
• 0:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We will be talking about eating disorders and disorder to eating.
• 0:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I know this can be a very tender topic for many.
• 0:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so if this is something you're not in a place to listen to right now, that is completely okay.
• 0:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: This podcast will be here when and if you're ready,
• 0:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: to talk about that or to listen and if not at all totally perfectly fine next week we have a different topic coming your way.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I just wanted to let you know that up front.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: But today with us a Sally Clark and she is a new friend.
• 0:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's an LPC that specializes in eating disorders.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to talk about it in terms of ourselves.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Our loved ones, our kids.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: What does it look like?
• 1:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do we know if there's an eating disorder or distorted eating?
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's the difference?
• 1:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: How to show curiosity around it?
• 1:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're made in God's image and that we need those reminders that we are loved irrespective of our body size and shape.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so Sally's gonna walk us through a lot of that today.
• 1:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's the tip of the iceberg.
• 1:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We talked about that in the show.
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much that could be covered.
• 1:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we are not trying to cover every facet.
• 1:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're trying to just help us look into this a little bit and have some knowledge.
• 1:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And so my hope is this is helpful for you today.
• 1:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: We will link Sally's information in the podcast notes if you want to dive deeper with her and with all of that you guys.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm ready to kick it off with Sally Clark.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Here we go.
• 1:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sally Clark, welcome to podcast how are you?
• 1:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, thanks so much for having me.
• 1:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am doing well.
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: How are you?
• 1:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Great.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so thankful that you agreed to come on.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was telling you this before we started taping, but as a girl who has, I think, four podcasts right now, but I've been podcasting for many, many years.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've never done a show on what we're talking out today, and so I'm really excited to talk about a hard topic, but so necessary.
• 2:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I'm so honored that you asked me to do that, and also it is a very relevant, just topic that I think a lot of people need to hear.
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we have a mutual friend that was like, this is the girl to talk to if you want to talk about disorder and eating.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then I sent you the questions.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not that we're going to cover all of them, but I may have, I may have actually put you into some sort of cardiac arrest.
• 2:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because I mean, there's a lot to it, but we just want, we'll cover what we can today.
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's great.
• 2:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I know it's always funny when you click on a text and then it leads to another text.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, Oh, wow.
• 2:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a lot of questions.
• 2:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I love it.
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tell everybody just a little bit about where you are personally professionally, whatever you want to share with us as we get going.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 3:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I've been in Sally Clark and I am a licensed professional counselor.
• 3:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: and a certified eating disorder specialist.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: My office is in Richardson.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's called Connections Counseling.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I do online and in person, and yeah, I primarily work with kids and teens and like young adults, but I also will work with just any adult kind of like wrestling with eating issues or any anxiety, depression kind of all the things that kind of fall into that.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: Personally, I'm married.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I've been married for three years and we have a daughter.
• 3:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's seven.
• 3:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a seven-month-old and she is so fine and she's very chill, which we will take.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think she has my demeanor, so we'll take it.
• 3:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's great.
• 3:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: I found mine was chill, Sally, and then I think it happened, but, but much earlier, so I think you're safe.
• 3:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So okay, yeah, well, thanks for being here and okay, let's start with the most basic questions or maybe it's just very basic to me, but is an eating disorder, the same thing is disorder to eating and if not what's the difference.
• 4:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I would say I feel like those, they have become a lot like more interchangeable, but I would say disordered eating is kind of just like the umbrella term for any unhealthy eating behavior.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I would classify that as like chronic dieting, food restriction, maybe even like skipping meals, over exercise, even just like labeling foods as like good food versus bad food.
• 4:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: or another big hot topic I feel like nowadays is just even like very extreme clean eating.
• 4:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so those were kind of fall in there.
• 4:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I said the umbrella of like disordered eating and then an eating disorder, I feel like it's kind of all those things but just way more severe.
• 4:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that would be like really impacting our like day-to-day life and definitely even like the more medical aspect of things
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: like really like malnourished or purging constantly or, you know, those would then classify more like the Aerexia and bulimia and binge eating disorder and stuff like that.
• 5:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if like an eating disorder would be that clean or a disorder eating, but just a little extra.
• 5:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, just yeah, a more extreme version of that.
• 5:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here's a question.
• 5:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are the biggest misconceptions people have about eating disorders or disorder eating?
• 5:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say some big ones are a really big misconception is even like, oh, you can tell by how somebody looks like if they have a eating disorder or not.
• 5:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And body size is never a great indicator.
• 5:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or a lot of misconceptions is like, oh, well, once people start eating everything will be fine.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of times weight restoration is the first step.
• 5:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And kind of tackling some of these things, however, that's like an eating disorder standpoint.
• 6:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: But however, like that,
• 6:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: You have to even begin to tackle the mental side of things inside of you.
• 6:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really big misconception or like a lot of times people say oh it's just like a lack of well power and often there's like a lot of complex factors that are really going on that are like way underneath.
• 6:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's kind of like the iceberg analogy of like oh you're seeing all of these behaviors kind of on the top but underneath of the needing disorder or even disordered eating
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, what are some early signs that a person's relationship with food could be starting to become unhealthy?
• 6:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say when people become very rigid even about just what they are eating or the more rigid that someone's going to be, the more concerning that it definitely is I would say some other starting signs would just be like if people only think about food it's kind of like okay what's my next meal going to be
• 7:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: How much should I eat?
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: How much am I not going to eat?
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like that's a big one.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like some other starting signs would even just be like the just constant planning out like when I'm going to be able to exercise or how often or just like the constant mental checks that kind of go on all the time.
• 7:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Another big one I would say is if you are missing out or just thinking about food or thinking about the way that you look or thinking about
• 7:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, exercise or any of that.
• 7:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's interfering with like your daily life.
• 7:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are just times when it's, we might have something else kind of going on, especially if you're missing out on some of the things that are really important to you and such you're in your values.
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's when we might need to kind of check it out themselves.
• 7:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've heard people say before, like, oh, I wanted to go to this thing, but I knew, you know, I couldn't eat there.
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or I knew that it'd be way too tempting, or those kind of things, like, I think maybe everybody's had those thoughts, but if that's something, if I hear you right, that just routinely is factoring into whether or not you go to social settings, or whether or not it's going to interfere with your gym time, or other things, if that's routinely, maybe that's something a pattern to start watching.
• 8:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: So is that correct?
• 8:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yeah.
• 8:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say that's correct.
• 8:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And just even when you're just even like when you sit down at a table and it's kind of like if you're just consumed with guilt and shame, even when you sit down and you're like, I can't if you have a plate full of, you know, turkey and after you're sitting out of Thanksgiving table or something like that and there's certain foods that you're either like scared to eat or you're like, I can only one bite of those or even if you do eat them and then afterwards you're feeling really guilt or a lot of guilt and a lot of shame.
• 8:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: If those are a lot of times too, I'm just like, hey, there's like an indicator here that's kind of pointing out, we might have a little something going on.
• 9:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I think about maybe even in our kids, does it make a difference if you've had a child?
• 9:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't mean child child.
• 9:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk like, you know, high school college kid.
• 9:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've always just been very health conscious.
• 9:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: They love to work out.
• 9:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: They've always watched their food and what they eat, all that.
• 9:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Does it make a difference with that kind of situation?
• 9:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Versus a kid that maybe was never that way, but suddenly became that way.
• 9:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, oh gosh, now it's suddenly, you know, we're on every app.
• 9:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, calorie app.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're counting all the things.
• 9:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're, you know, we need another gym membership.
• 9:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're walking after every Like, do you look at those things like if it's a discrepancy from what they've been before and there's suddenly a big change?
• 9:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, are those things to watch for as well?
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: For sure.
• 9:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say anytime that you see something out of the norm, um,
• 9:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: from your kids behavior, just like demeanor, it's something to look out for.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think just even like bringing that up in a very curious, like leaving with curiosity and not control, and those conversations can be really important, even though it feels so scary, but even just saying, hey, I'm noticing changes in this way.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, are you doing okay, or hey, these are some patty there, or you're missing out on going to get ice cream with your friends.
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like, I mean, I think this is self-evident, but I feel like in our culture, we're living in this world where it's almost responsible or it's, um,
• 10:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: encouraged under this is healthy eating like you know the skipping meals I think we've all heard you know intermittent fasting and I'm not knocking on intermittent fasting but you know to skip or go as long as you can without eating you know and regulate all these other things by not eating until you know it's the fort ten hour mark or whatever and then also all this being eating clean and I think there's so many different ways that our culture seems to encourage things
• 10:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: as healthy that actually could be disordered eating or lead to that.
• 10:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?
• 10:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is that accurate?
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, our culture has definitely created just an environment like, oh, this is almost it's kind of glorified of like, oh, well, we're trying to do these behaviors that are we're so disciplined.
• 11:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: We are so
• 11:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like we kind of have created, like we put those behaviors kind of even like on a pedestal.
• 11:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of times we're doing those things to kind of punish ourselves and they're more.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say then rooted more so in shame and we know that shame really does come from the enemy.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that there is whenever our flexibility just turns into more like rigidity and we can't like deviate from that anxiety or guilt or fear and really it's rooted in shame.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: then that is not going to be helpful.
• 11:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of times, too, I think there's a difference.
• 11:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of times, I think people will say, oh, I'm just like honoring God or I'm trying to steward my body well.
• 11:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the thing is, is the Lord has given us a body and there's a difference between like stewarding our body well and becoming so rigid and like punishing ourselves.
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think one thing that can be really helpful in the terms of just like, oh, am I just trying to be healthy?
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, hey, if my, our good question to even check in with ourselves is, it's like, hey,
• 12:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: If I, if my body never changed from this behavior, what I'd be okay.
• 12:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if my body never changed from exercising for two hours every day, what I still be okay, or it's kind of just like really checking in what is my heart motivation behind it all and how we have really leaned into, hey, is it really to like be healthy or is it really to
• 12:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: change the way that I look and to change these things and I think to another thing that can be helpful it's even asking ourselves what health really means to us.
• 12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like if we were to, I sometimes will ask my clients at them like, hey, what does the term health really mean?
• 12:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so someone's like, oh well, being healthy means,
• 12:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: just like a number on the scale that I think it's important for us to check in and say, hey, I think there's a lot of health can mean a lot of different things.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's emotional health, there's spiritual health, there's just mental health, there's even being financially healthy.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So kind of really asking ourselves like what the term health really means to us and kind of checking in that way.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 13:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 13:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk for a minute about what is classified as an eating disorder.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We think bulimia and our XIA, I mean, what are the, what are the, what are the actually labeled eating disorders?
• 13:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So there's four main eating disorders, it's an inner exam nervous, which will just be kind of, I'll give you like a concise explanation of them, but that would just be severe restriction of any food that's driven by intense fear.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say of like weight gain or just like very disordered or distorted body image.
• 13:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have bulimia, nervous, which is like repeated cycles of binge eating, and then followed by compensatory behaviors such as purging or fasting or excessive exercise.
• 14:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Then we have binge eating disorder, which is just going to be frequent episodes of eating large amount of foods.
• 14:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: like what the sense of control, but there's no purging involved in those things.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have our fed, which is avoided avoidant restrictive food and take disorder.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's going to be a very limited or selective eating of foods.
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: But that's more due to like sensory issues or even like the fear of
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: a consequence like if they're going to choke or they're going to get sick or even um I had a kid one time that had arphid and he was allergic to peanuts and so he was always scared that something had peanuts in it when it really did end so he was scared to eat that kind of stuff but that one's not driven by any body image concerns.
• 14:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, at the risk of making this a therapy session, which is not my intent, everyone.
• 15:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I remember it was a child going through the stage.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I know you just said that Arvan has like, wait a minute.
• 15:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember as a kid being so scared I was going to choke.
• 15:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: On, I don't know why I hadn't choked.
• 15:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I went through it for like a year or so.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember my mom being concerned I lost so much weight.
• 15:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess it kind of went away.
• 15:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: But like, is that what you're talking about?
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just like, and I'm thinking about our kids.
• 15:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this was a long time ago.
• 15:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But our kids, if they have this fear of choking,
• 15:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And reasonable fear around food.
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what you're talking about on that last one.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I would say it's like pretty extreme.
• 15:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like they also even have some physical, or just like also can be malnourished because they're not getting enough calories.
• 15:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not due to the way that they look and more so is just due to an intense fear.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And really they only eat like a handful of foods.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 15:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then, um, and again, I'm not skipping the first two.
• 15:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think more we know more about, um, at our example.
• 16:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm, I'm interested in, um, binge eating as well because I bet half the people listening are like, that's me.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: What it probably isn't.
• 16:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So talk to us a little bit about that because I mean, I, I think a lot of us can think, well, I do lose control on ice cream ever Saturday night or I lose control here.
• 16:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, but what does it really look like?
• 16:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are you looking for in that one?
• 16:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that one I would say that is, yeah, I think a lot of times people will be like, oh, I binge today, and I'm like, what does that exactly mean?
• 16:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like pretty, I mean, like I said, of very late terms of saying that would even be if they're sitting down and I don't remember the exact time frame, but sitting down in a specific time frame and eating, I mean, saying like, sleeves and sleeves of Oreos or a whole half gallon of ice cream or,
• 16:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: all of these different things in probably like five to ten minutes and then like continuously wanting to do that.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not necessarily just like a one-off thing here there.
• 17:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's happening like constantly and also they're pretty like extreme behavior amounts of food too.
• 17:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, okay, and so there's a difference, obviously, and just to nail it out a little more.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, overeating is different than binge eating, and that sense of like losing control.
• 17:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, for sure.
• 17:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right.
• 17:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So.
• 17:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And here's another one, calorie tracking, and we talked about intermittent fasting macro count and clean eating all those things.
• 17:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: None of them bad in and of themselves.
• 17:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the extreme versions of those.
• 17:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about how we evaluate that in ourselves and our kids.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think you probably hit this, but starts interfering with social activities, always on our mind.
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anything else we need to be thinking about with that, watching for ourselves or our kids?
• 17:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, I would say that anytime we are, yeah, just thinking about those things, and it becomes a sense of control that that is controlling our every move is when it's important to, and I think a lot of times too, those behaviors sometimes they do feel good at first, because they do offer a sense of control, and they also offer us like a temporary relief from anxiety.
• 18:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: x, y, and z, it does give me a little bit of control and power to be able to pick, oh, I know I'm going to have this for dinner.
• 18:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the amount that I'm going to have.
• 18:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think, too, even like for moms, it's like, hey, mom life is a lot about or a lot of out of control and can be a lot of chaotic situations where we don't always know what's going to happen or what's even happening with our kids or even with ourselves.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of times,
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: then that's what we can sometimes lean to.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think too, I have what I was kind of saying about even like our identity.
• 19:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, I'm really disciplined and I think sometimes the church is kind of even
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: glorified that as well.
• 19:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, you're so disciplined.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then we also then will get praise from other people.
• 19:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so are those behaviors can feel really good.
• 19:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also can sometimes be helpful to an extent until they're not helpful until they're taking over.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: And that's like literally all we can think about and miss out on.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember a time in my daughter wouldn't mind me sharing this and she edits this podcast so she can take it out if she'd like to but I don't think she'd mind at all.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: I remember a time where she was going through some anxiety and in college early college she had never really had anxiety like that before and she was very.
• 19:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: then just from the anxiety and not feeling like eating and all that and I remember that so many people would comment on how good she looked and how, oh you are so healthy and she's she never struggled with her weight but was particularly thin and I remember thinking who that thin is coming at a big price tag and you know and and I just I just wonder if you had thoughts on us
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think as a culture, but especially as women, we comment on each other's weight and their discipline and all these things, thoughts on maybe just being cautious around that.
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: for sure.
• 20:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, I think a lot of times people will try and say, oh, you look so healthy or oh, you look amazing.
• 20:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And a one thing that I will tell parents a lot, especially when their kid is kind of wrestling with an eating disorder, I'm like, hey, instead of saying that, even being like, hey, you, um, like not even are just focusing on other qualities that we love about them.
• 20:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: So even like, characteristic qualities.
• 20:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So like, hey, thank you so much for being so
• 20:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: like patient with your siblings or you know like things that don't pertain to the way that they look.
• 20:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think even to his women even being like, I think even complimenting or praising just like, Hey, thanks so much for being great friend today and showing up when I really need something.
• 21:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Even if it even if they have a lost weight or if they do look a certain way or you know, certain things like that.
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: being able to not just solely focus on our appearance and I think sometimes like I was saying we've taken something that can be good and just taken it to the extreme and so when we're focusing and thinking so much of our bodies either that could be like too highly or too lowly of ourselves but really it's important for us to like really fix our eyes on the Lord and be like hey what how do you see me
• 21:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: and how he views us instead of what our culture says about us and or things that we.
• 21:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: How we want to do yourself?
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 21:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: What if we're worried about a loved one that we have some concern about something going on there in terms of either disorder, eating or an eating disorder?
• 22:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you broach that topic?
• 22:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because the last thing we want to do is make anything worse or plant something in their head that wasn't already there, or what's your thoughts on how to appropriately show concern?
• 22:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say that if it is like a spouse or someone like that, I think it's important just to even kind of like I was saying earlier, just like checking and what really with anyone being able to lead with curiosity and just be like, hey, I think that there are some things that I've noticed lately that are a little bit different or I have noticed that you're not really wanting to engage in
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Activities that you really love to engage with or hey, you're not really wanting to take our son or daughter out to get ice cream anymore And that was like one of your favorite things to do So kind of like just leading with curiosity if it's like a parent kind of saying the same thing But also just wanting Parents to even go to their pediatrician to say, okay, are there things that are we like falling off of the growth curve or are we?
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know like just being able to look for some tell signs in that way
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: And what do we know?
• 23:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do we know when we need to get a professional involved?
• 23:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I would guess a lot of times, most times.
• 23:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking maybe parent to adult child or even young child.
• 23:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there will be some denial by the child of something, even if there is something going on.
• 23:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you know if you need to take that next step?
• 23:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are we looking for?
• 23:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say anytime if it is a kid, anytime like if their grades are dropping, if they're wearing clothes, like they start wearing clothes, like really baggy clothes, and when they used to not really wear things like that, they're not enjoying foods that they used to enjoy or skipping meals, or they're always running to the bathroom after meals, or even if you're finding wrappers in their room or under their bed,
• 24:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just point out to them.
• 24:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think the two with eating disorders are just sort of eating in general.
• 24:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: There can be a lot of denial wrapped up in that.
• 24:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So even with kids, I think a lot of times it does take a lot of hate.
• 24:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is this actually a real problem?
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And having a, I think that's another thing that's important is having a therapist that does specialize in eating disorders is helpful because there's just a lot of complexity
• 24:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so really having somebody there to be like, hey, these are kind of like the signs or even the stages of change that kind of go on with eating disorders can be helpful and helping point out some of that stuff.
• 24:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 24:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I could see where it might be a tendency if you noticed someone I love I'm getting really small, smaller and frame being really concerned about that.
• 24:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas if someone was getting larger and frame, it might be a, you know, you're going to be like, well, you've got a more discipline.
• 25:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or you don't eat well and ever, we got to get you the gym.
• 25:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I could see where it may be that would go the other direction and be unhelpful too.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Totally about that.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Eating disorders may be in larger frames.
• 25:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: And, um,
• 25:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe even a caution about jumping to conclusions about what's behind that.
• 25:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say one thing is I just encourage parents, even if like they come in, I think too.
• 25:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: One thing is for parents to just really check in with themselves to really all of us in general of how we speak about food.
• 25:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: It can be really unhelpful when we're like,
• 25:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have to fit into this dress later on next week or something or that's a good food or that's a bad food and so then when we start labeling food as good or bad or healthier and healthier clean versus junk then our kids and even our spouses and other people and friends and all of that just pay attention to those things and so then whenever we eat some a food like that it kind of almost feels like we're
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: doing something wrong or we like we do feel guilt after that or just we have all these different emotions around it.
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so instead just like labeling food as it is and just being like hey instead of saying good or bad or clean or unclean or any of that even asking ourselves like hey how is this food maybe going to benefit me right now?
• 26:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so just like even neutralizing it
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: It can, food is neutral and they're, yes, it's not a great thing to, I'm not saying like, oh yeah, we need to eat cupcakes for every single meal, but it's like, hey, I'd also just totally find if we have a cupcake after dinner every like so often or by not labeling those things.
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And even being like, hey, how is this food going to benefit me?
• 26:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: And if I'm not eating this food,
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: or of my missing out on connecting in a different way.
• 27:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if it's for a friend's birthday and I'm like, oh, sorry, I'm not gonna eat that.
• 27:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: You're actually missing out on like, a value of yours with connection.
• 27:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, too, even kind of on what I was, I think, saying even like a little earlier, like, hey, there's, we don't know what's going on underneath.
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so there's always, like, yes, there could be some things.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like some behaviors like oh really all eating disorders or any of that is about control and so it's like hey It's about either we feel like we have no control or we have too much control And so it's like hey, what are other things that are life that we can control instead of just this food and all like sometimes Have kids or even anyone just be like hey, these are things in my life.
• 27:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I can control these are things in my life.
• 27:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot control and What am I choosing to control versus not?
• 27:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I always say, hey, we got to control the controlables.
• 27:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so if a friend is not being kind to you and you choose to go and restrict or even binge or like, hey, where does that really lead us?
• 28:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, kind of thinking through.
• 28:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: You raise a good point.
• 28:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: In your experience with eating disorders, is there something underneath that's usually pervasive like wanting this control issue you're talking about?
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Identity issues.
• 28:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, are there certain things that you see just almost every time that it's the below, below the iceberg, those issues that need to be dealt with?
• 28:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say control is a big one, just say anxiety and general perfectionism is a really big one.
• 28:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I would say those are probably, I mean, obviously, depression, all of the things that kind of just like lead to mental health stuff, but those would probably be the most prevalent.
• 28:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, if someone's listening to this in this thinking, this might be me, I might have an issue, like what's the first step?
• 28:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Or even if you have a loved one, like what's the next step for us?
• 28:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say that eating disorders love to thrive in darkness and as does shame and so really just bringing that to the light.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think telling a friend, I think, or even a family member or somebody and that could even look like, hey, I think about these thoughts a lot and I don't even know what to do with them and like even bring being able to say that.
• 29:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: and I think to just even a lie that a lot of people believe is like that we're unlovable or we can't be loved if we don't look a certain way or any of that or like oh you'll finally be able you'll be enough if you can just control this and like the truth is your worth was never meant to be earned it's already secured and so just being able to share with somebody is super important and then I think then they can even help you
• 29:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of the next steps would be the if that's finding a therapist or maybe even going to a pediatrician if it is a kid or your primary care doctor or there's dietitians that are very well equipped as eating disorders and that I have a long list of referral people so those are also things and just good resources to have for getting the steps.
• 30:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
• 30:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: And if someone is going to go to a therapist for some sort of eating disorder or disordered eating, like what would good treatment include?
• 30:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's really important, especially in this field to work with a multi-disciplinary team, is super important to have
• 30:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: on your side.
• 30:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So having a therapist involved, having a dietitian involved, and then having either psychiatrist and or like a primary care doctor is really important.
• 30:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just because there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, uh, good therapies that work really well for disorder dating is any cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 30:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So anything that's like targeting our thoughts and just like kind of what I was saying, this cognitive distortions that we believe about ourselves,
• 31:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: and then targeting just like our beliefs and then our behaviors is really important.
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Acceptance and commitment therapy is a great therapy for this as well.
• 31:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just as talking a lot about our values like I've been saying and just
• 31:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, what are the things that are really important to me and with every decision I make?
• 31:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I either move towards those values or away from those values.
• 31:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then family-based therapy is crucial for any teenager that's kind of walking through this just to have like, the parents involved in the kid.
• 31:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then also DBT is gonna be helpful, which is just very like skills-based and kind of walks through stuff like that too.
• 31:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can you have full recovery from an eating disorder?
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: You can.
• 31:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which I think gives a lot of hope.
• 31:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I have worked with a lot of families.
• 32:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think to we it's going to look a lot different for every kid or just for every person, but we are called to look different.
• 32:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so it is a lot of work, but I'm also like, hey, the Lord has and does just provide.
• 32:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: recovery from this, and we might not always see like behaviors change immediately, but we also know and have hope that the Lord is working even behind the scenes, and I've seen it happen plenty of times.
• 32:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: And for some of these listening and that feels like this is kind of struck record, and maybe there could be a concern in their own life with this.
• 32:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: But is terrified to get help because letting go of the behavior might be letting go of control or letting go of the body controller, size or whatever it is that we're dealing with.
• 32:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: What would you say to that person?
• 32:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say that you're not alone.
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a ton of people that have felt this way before, just kind of, oh my gosh, I don't even know where to begin.
• 33:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that one thing is just knowing that your body is good and the Lord has created your body.
• 33:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: No matter how you feel about it.
• 33:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so knowing like, hey, our feelings are going to be like indicators of things, but they're not,
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: dictators of the way that we should and shouldn't you know live and so even just thinking they're like hey it is really scary to get help and also like two things to be true and it also will provide so much more freedom in your life and I think to eating disorders try and tell us
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you have so much freedom and, you know, this is a good thing to be controlled by, but it actually is like in tingling us and in trapping us way more than like we really would think that it is.
• 33:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so you will feel so much more free and so much more have so much more life to give if you're just even taking one step towards freedom can be really helpful.
• 34:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and then I would think there would be people saying that are not concerned for themselves but concerned for maybe their child or maybe their young adult.
• 34:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Encouragement on moving forward and taking next steps there because I think it can be scary to actually acknowledge or find out what I suspect is actually true.
• 34:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's easier sometimes just to avoid it or convince yourself, you know.
• 34:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: that's just healthy eating or whatever that might be.
• 34:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: What's your encouragement to a parent that feels like maybe it's time to dress something but it's fearful about that?
• 34:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think two, one thing is just even really meeting people where they're at.
• 34:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think, hey, it's like right now, they might not be ready to talk about it.
• 34:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that can be really scary because especially as a parent for a young adult, or like child, or something, it's like, oh, I, or even a spouse, it's like, I don't even know, I want them to see this or I want them to understand that this is not going to be life-giving.
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, hey, we can still show up for people and meet them where they are, even if no behaviors do change.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so even like, slowly but surely, like calling things out can be helpful.
• 35:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: And also just being like, hey, I know you might not be ready to change, but when you are ready, I'm going to be here and I'm going to help you along the way.
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So just like reminding people of that too.
• 35:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that you're there and you're a support and well this is very helpful and it is like I feel like we've just barely touched on such a big issue but hopefully it's given some given some people room to think about this or some people are concerned in their own or with their kids or their spouse or whoever that might be and so again you are with connections counseling is there an S on it is a connection or connections connections connections counseling with an S yes
• 36:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so if you are in the Dallas area, then that is a resource for you and I love that you're an LPC and you love the Lord and that this is what you're specializing in and that's amazing among other things and for those that are not maybe in the Dallas area, is there a way to find someone that's specialized in this area?
• 36:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Is there some way to look this up a database or anything else or you just kind of googling or what how do we do this?
• 36:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so there I'm actually is a idea, which is the International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals.
• 36:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's what it stands for.
• 36:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's IAEDP.
• 36:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there should be a database on their website.
• 36:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: And those are going to be all people that are also certified eating disorder specialists.
• 36:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you can find them in your local area.
• 36:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing.
• 36:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, we will link your info, your practice on podcast notes and Sally, thanks for being here.
• 36:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much Cynthia, it was nice chatting with you.
• 37:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You too.
• 37:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Alright, friends, I know that we just touched the top of the iceberg.
• 37:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: We barely skimmed the surface of all there is on this topic, but I hope that it was helpful and at least gave you a starting point.
• 37:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you live in the Dallas area and you want to catch up with Sally, then you go to Connections Counseling.
• 37:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We will link it in podcast notes and then also she gave you ways.
• 37:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you're outside of the Dallas area, ways that you can find someone in your area, if that is something you want to do.
• 37:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Next week, we're back with a totally new topic, a totally different topic, but I'm glad we could take a few minutes here, and so thanks for being a part of it, as always, and thanks for being a part of the mesmerized family.
• 37:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're the best.