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Black Swan and the Horror of Perfectionism · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. You're not going to
0:07
Speaker 1: stuff I've ever told your production II Radio. So it
0:19
Speaker 1: are continued really unplanned streak of horror movies that involved
0:26
Speaker 1: dancing as promised. Today we're talking about Black Swan from
0:31
Speaker 1: two thousand ten. And yeah, we are doing a bit
0:35
Speaker 1: more movies than we normally do this month. But it's
0:37
Speaker 1: just because we're such horror movie buffs. There's sobody to
0:42
Speaker 1: talk about. And I do think that a lot of times.
0:45
Speaker 1: As I said that, the themes are really interesting and
0:49
Speaker 1: we're talking about what it is we're afraid of, and
0:51
Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to women. I saw this movie
0:55
Speaker 1: in theaters in two thousands and when it came out,
0:57
Speaker 1: and this was back when the theater near I was
0:59
Speaker 1: in College College UM, in the theater near me. Every Friday,
1:03
Speaker 1: my roommate and I would go and the tickets if
1:05
Speaker 1: your student costs two dollars. So we just would see
1:09
Speaker 1: all kinds of movies all the time, and we would
1:11
Speaker 1: do double features. I saw this and King Speech the
1:15
Speaker 1: same night, and then I will talk about it as
1:20
Speaker 1: we go through. But I have some very funny memories
1:23
Speaker 1: of seeing this in theaters for the first time. Because
1:25
Speaker 1: I think the crowd was a bit so it was
1:27
Speaker 1: nominated for a bunch of awards, um so I think
1:30
Speaker 1: it was a lot of older folks who were not
1:34
Speaker 1: anticipating the type of movie it was. Yeah, that was unexpected.
1:40
Speaker 1: Their reactions were very, very funny, particularly to one scene
1:44
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of, right, But this was probably one of
1:47
Speaker 1: the first movies I watched before, like I had started
1:51
Speaker 1: on the podcast, and before we you know, one day
1:53
Speaker 1: would start our feminist movie Friday, and like me and
1:56
Speaker 1: my roommate my friend, we just sat and discussed it,
1:58
Speaker 1: like what does it mean? What does this say? And
2:00
Speaker 1: what about this? And what are we saying about women
2:02
Speaker 1: about here? And it was interesting a lot of the
2:05
Speaker 1: different takes that we got. And then recently it's been
2:08
Speaker 1: on my mind because a friend of mine said she
2:12
Speaker 1: had watched a YouTube video about like the dangers of perfectionism,
2:18
Speaker 1: which we've talked about and particularly for women, and it
2:22
Speaker 1: used black Swan as kind of this academic example of
2:26
Speaker 1: breaking down like look how deadly this is or can
2:31
Speaker 1: be and speaking of a quick sugar warning, we are
2:33
Speaker 1: going to be talking about mental illness, abuse, death, potential suicide.
2:41
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, but we're not gonna go to in depth
2:44
Speaker 1: into any of that stuff. I know I've told this
2:46
Speaker 1: story before, but this as a college student. After I
2:49
Speaker 1: saw this movie first six stream I ever had me
2:53
Speaker 1: like Cunes and Joseph Cordon love it like I don't
2:55
Speaker 1: know why he showed up. He was not in Black Swan. No, No,
2:59
Speaker 1: I don't know why he was or I don't think
3:00
Speaker 1: I've seen him in anything. Just like it, lingering, waiting, um,
3:06
Speaker 1: just hanging out. Yeah. And then I went as Nina
3:11
Speaker 1: Sayers now a Portman's character to a Halloween party, um,
3:15
Speaker 1: years and years ago, and it was a pretty i
3:17
Speaker 1: have to say red costume. It was one of my
3:19
Speaker 1: first four days into making something and I really liked
3:22
Speaker 1: how I turned out. I still have it back here. Yeah,
3:25
Speaker 1: I really liked it. I also have Pete jacket for
3:28
Speaker 1: the Black Swan one. Okay okay, yeah, like the Ballerina
3:32
Speaker 1: the makeup. That eye makeup was so cool. Um shout
3:36
Speaker 1: out to my friend Katie. Also, at the time, I
3:41
Speaker 1: didn't realize that Sebastian stand was in this, and that's
3:43
Speaker 1: only been a recent discovery for me. But he is
3:45
Speaker 1: in this, Yes he is for blank second, yes, very
3:49
Speaker 1: quick but he is there, and every time I see
3:55
Speaker 1: it it kind of throws me. I don't know why.
3:56
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, right, so this is my first time
4:01
Speaker 1: watching it. I've never watched it. I've never really been
4:03
Speaker 1: interested in it. I guess there's also questions of like,
4:06
Speaker 1: and we'll talk all about this later, but yeah, there's
4:08
Speaker 1: a lot of things like huh okay. I also have
4:11
Speaker 1: a strong feeling about Aeronovski in general, so it's like why.
4:15
Speaker 1: But yeah, interesting to watch for sure, And because I've
4:19
Speaker 1: known about it too long, I think nothing surprised me.
4:22
Speaker 1: I didn't. I mean, I didn't realize have been that long. Yeah, wow,
4:26
Speaker 1: that's eleven years. M them and them young selves. Not
4:31
Speaker 1: like we were still married to the ballet dancer though, right,
4:34
Speaker 1: that's where she met her husband. I believe on this,
4:37
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I'm sure. Yeah, I think he's
4:39
Speaker 1: a ballet answer and they've been together since Black Swan. Huh. Right,
4:44
Speaker 1: there you go, there you go random? All right, So
4:51
Speaker 1: let's begin with the movie. Yeah. Black Swan is a
4:54
Speaker 1: two thousand ten psychological horror movie directed by Darren Aronofski.
4:59
Speaker 1: It followed Was I Repressed, Timid Ballet Dancer Nina Sayers
5:04
Speaker 1: played by Nedley Portman. Sayers is a perfectionist, constantly pushing
5:08
Speaker 1: herself to be perfect in her dance. She lives with
5:11
Speaker 1: a very controlling and infantilizing mother who was a bellowing
5:15
Speaker 1: herself until she had to stop because she had gotten
5:19
Speaker 1: pregnant with Nina. Yes, the ballet company Nina dances for
5:23
Speaker 1: announces the retirement of their premium Ballerina Beth McIntyre played
5:26
Speaker 1: by Buanona writer Um, and that their new show is
5:29
Speaker 1: going to be Swan Lake, so they hold auditions for
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Speaker 1: the lead roles, roles that require the dancer um to
5:35
Speaker 1: embody both the innocent White Swan and her evil twin,
5:40
Speaker 1: the Black Swan, As the artistic director suspects. Nina nails
5:45
Speaker 1: the White Swan, but dancing as the Black Swan is
5:48
Speaker 1: a real struggle for her Um, and just as she
5:51
Speaker 1: is dancing the difficult coda for the Black Swan, her
5:54
Speaker 1: concentration is broken when a new dancer from the West
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Speaker 1: Coast named Lily played by Mila Kunas loudly enters and
6:02
Speaker 1: Nina's stumbles and doesn't finish. And that is the key.
6:06
Speaker 1: Remember this, by the way, I didn't realize what No,
6:10
Speaker 1: no writer was in this at all, and I was like, oh, wow,
6:14
Speaker 1: there is. I didn't I mention her. That's when you
6:17
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I've never seen that. I was like,
6:18
Speaker 1: what when we were talking about because that's kind of
6:20
Speaker 1: the theme of, you know, dying to be young that
6:23
Speaker 1: we talked about this whole thing, because it's implied that
6:25
Speaker 1: they have a conversation the other dancers, and it's very
6:27
Speaker 1: implied that she's being forced to retire because she's older, right,
6:33
Speaker 1: because that her too old. So the next day and
6:36
Speaker 1: Nina goes to ask the directive for the part, and
6:39
Speaker 1: this is after she's still some things from from the
6:42
Speaker 1: writer's character to try to become more like her, which
6:45
Speaker 1: says a lot, and he confirms that she is the
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Speaker 1: perfect casting for the white Swan, but that he doesn't
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Speaker 1: think she can dance the Black Swan to Nina relents
6:56
Speaker 1: about to leave when the director asks her why she
6:59
Speaker 1: got all alled up and that's what was all the
7:01
Speaker 1: fights she was going to put into it. When he
7:04
Speaker 1: forcibly kisses her, she bites him and quickly walks away.
7:07
Speaker 1: The director is surprised by her actions, thinking her incapable
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Speaker 1: of doing something so mean and forceful. Nina is surprised
7:15
Speaker 1: to learn she has been cast in the lead roles,
7:18
Speaker 1: and the director tells her he wants to see more
7:20
Speaker 1: of that bite. Yeah, definitely a lot of feelings in
7:23
Speaker 1: this movie. So Nina attends a gala in her honor.
7:28
Speaker 1: She has to schmooz and show off and pretend to
7:31
Speaker 1: be the lead wearing all white to get donors excited
7:36
Speaker 1: and willing to give them more money. When she is
7:39
Speaker 1: in the bathroom, she picks up something protruding near her nail,
7:42
Speaker 1: and it's once again interrupted by Lily, dressed in all black,
7:46
Speaker 1: who was much more free and open and flirty. She
7:50
Speaker 1: tries to convince Nina to stay and talk to her,
7:52
Speaker 1: but Nina leaves. Later that night, she and the director
7:55
Speaker 1: run into Beth, who was furious at being forced out
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Speaker 1: of the company. She accuses Nina of sucking his cock
8:02
Speaker 1: to get this role, and Nina fires back, some of
8:04
Speaker 1: us don't have to. And then before things can actually escalate,
8:08
Speaker 1: the director intervenes his nickname for Beth as Little Princess,
8:12
Speaker 1: seriously condescending. The director briefly takes Nina to his apartment,
8:17
Speaker 1: asking her if she's a virgin, giving her the assignment
8:20
Speaker 1: to go home and touch herself. Nina tries, but before
8:23
Speaker 1: she can, she's interrupted because she sees that her mother
8:27
Speaker 1: was sitting next to her bed. Super awkward moment. Yeah,
8:31
Speaker 1: so this is the moment when I saw in theaters
8:33
Speaker 1: where the older clientele and the audience were a gas
8:38
Speaker 1: and like laughing. We were all laughing in shock at
8:41
Speaker 1: all the reactions. It was so great because it's like,
8:45
Speaker 1: I believe Clint Manzel does the soundtrack, So was this
8:47
Speaker 1: building like dramatic moment. She's like really going at it
8:50
Speaker 1: with this masturbation thing, and then it cuts her mom
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Speaker 1: right there and the music I was like, bomb ball.
8:58
Speaker 1: I remember that moment so clearly. Yeah, yes, once again
9:04
Speaker 1: does not get to finish, all right. So the next day,
9:07
Speaker 1: Nina finds out that Beth was hit by a car.
9:10
Speaker 1: The director believes that she did it on purpose to
9:12
Speaker 1: end her life. Um. So Nina gets these things, some
9:15
Speaker 1: of the best things that she's taken, goes over to
9:18
Speaker 1: visit her in the hospital and and Beth is unconscious
9:21
Speaker 1: at at this moment, but Nina sees that she broke
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Speaker 1: both of her legs and will never will probably never
9:26
Speaker 1: dance probably again, and she sort of flees before Beth
9:30
Speaker 1: wakes up. Back at the studio, the director asked that
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Speaker 1: Nina observed Lily dancing the black Swan, commenting that her
9:36
Speaker 1: movements are quote effortless and that she quote isn't faking it.
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Speaker 1: Lily shares a resemblance to Nina, but has the qualities
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Speaker 1: of the black Swan that Nina lacks. Nina begins to
9:47
Speaker 1: see more and more doppelgangers of herself, often a black
9:51
Speaker 1: Swan version of herself, more sensual and dark, and she
9:55
Speaker 1: starts to find these scratches on her back. The director
9:59
Speaker 1: grows more and more frustrated with her unsensual performance as
10:03
Speaker 1: the black Swan at one rehearsal, asking the other dancer
10:06
Speaker 1: would you that girl? No, no one would, and then
10:09
Speaker 1: he kicks everybody out, and then he dances with her,
10:12
Speaker 1: touching her and kissing her um. Then he angrily pulls
10:16
Speaker 1: away and says that was amused deducing you when it
10:18
Speaker 1: should be the other way around. He leaves her alone.
10:20
Speaker 1: They also left very hard at that part, because then
10:22
Speaker 1: she runs after him and says please, and it's like
10:24
Speaker 1: a really awkward moment, and the whole audience was like,
10:28
Speaker 1: oh no, what. Lily comes to Nina's apartment to apologize
10:35
Speaker 1: for telling the director to lay off Nina, something that
10:38
Speaker 1: really annoyed Nina, and calls the director to yell at
10:40
Speaker 1: her for whining. And she asked Nina out for drinks.
10:43
Speaker 1: And then this is one of those like there's a
10:45
Speaker 1: paranoia throughout this movie. But Nina's like, how did you
10:48
Speaker 1: know where I live? And Lily says, I have my
10:51
Speaker 1: ways but she just got it from the secretary at
10:54
Speaker 1: the office. But anyway, Nina ignores her mother's strong objections
10:58
Speaker 1: and agrees to go out. Lily offers her ecstasy and
11:02
Speaker 1: she refuses, but Lily puts some in her drink without
11:05
Speaker 1: Nina's knowledge or like she kind of sees it but
11:07
Speaker 1: doesn't do I don't know. I guess she's just going
11:10
Speaker 1: along with the ride. At this point, the to drink
11:12
Speaker 1: and dance and flirt with some men Sebastian stand included.
11:17
Speaker 1: Nina kisses someone and the hallucinations grow as they dance
11:20
Speaker 1: on the dance floor. When they get back to Nina's place,
11:23
Speaker 1: it clearly still inebriated. Nina taughts her mom about the
11:26
Speaker 1: night out that she's had prompting her mom to hit her. Furious,
11:31
Speaker 1: Nina takes Lille's hand and leaves her into a room,
11:33
Speaker 1: barricading it from the inside and shouting at her mother
11:35
Speaker 1: to leave her alone. Um, Lily and Nina have sex
11:39
Speaker 1: um and the black tattooed wings on Lee's back started
11:42
Speaker 1: like shivering and moving, But before Nina can finish UM,
11:46
Speaker 1: she hallucinates a version of herself in the place of Lily,
11:49
Speaker 1: her mother's voice calling her sweet girl, and a pillow
11:53
Speaker 1: being pressed over her face. So when she wakes up
11:56
Speaker 1: the next morning, Lily is gone and the door is
11:59
Speaker 1: still bear caated from the inside. Nina angrily tells her
12:03
Speaker 1: mother she's moving out because apparently she woke up late
12:06
Speaker 1: and her mother would refuse to wake her up. She
12:09
Speaker 1: finds Lily dancing the black scene choreography and confronts her
12:12
Speaker 1: about last night, and Lily reveals she didn't sleep over
12:16
Speaker 1: unless she has a dick. She actually says that teasing
12:19
Speaker 1: Nina for having a sex dream about her. Nina's paranoia
12:23
Speaker 1: grows as she learns that Lily has been made her alternate.
12:26
Speaker 1: She begs the director to choose someone other than Lily,
12:29
Speaker 1: filling Lily's out to get her. The director tries to
12:33
Speaker 1: assure her, telling Nina the only one in her way
12:35
Speaker 1: is her, which is not wrong. Her hallucinations increased and
12:39
Speaker 1: her behavior becomes more erratic. Someone writes horror on the
12:43
Speaker 1: mirror and red lipstick. She throws away her stuffed animals.
12:46
Speaker 1: She practices non stop. She's not eating. She goes to
12:50
Speaker 1: see Beth in the hospital to return her items, but
12:53
Speaker 1: Beth staffs herself and the cheek with a nail file
12:56
Speaker 1: that she gets back really grows, shouting nothing on repeat,
13:01
Speaker 1: morphing into Nina, and all the images her mother has
13:04
Speaker 1: painted of her start moving, and Nina flees to her
13:06
Speaker 1: room and hallucinations, transforming into a swan, hitting her head,
13:10
Speaker 1: passing out. The next morning is opening night, and Nina's
13:14
Speaker 1: mother again didn't wake her when she overslept, saying that
13:17
Speaker 1: she had called to let them know that she was
13:19
Speaker 1: sick and would not be coming. She tries to leave.
13:22
Speaker 1: Nina does, but her mother has removed the door knob,
13:25
Speaker 1: and Nina attacks her mother and recovers the knob, yelling
13:28
Speaker 1: at her about how she was the one that never
13:30
Speaker 1: left the core. Yeah, so Nina, I have to Lincoln
13:33
Speaker 1: Center late and the director tells her he had already
13:36
Speaker 1: asked thee to fill in for her, but Nina doesn't budge,
13:39
Speaker 1: asking him if he needs another controversy after what happened
13:42
Speaker 1: to Beth. Impressed, the director agrees to let her dance
13:46
Speaker 1: during the first act. A hallucination midway leads to her
13:49
Speaker 1: being dropped um as the other dancers carrying her. Distraught,
13:53
Speaker 1: she goes to her dressing room only to find Lily
13:56
Speaker 1: getting ready to dance the Black Swan, taunting her about
13:59
Speaker 1: her failure and ability to dance the black Swan. Lily
14:03
Speaker 1: transforms into Nina as the Black Swan and a to fight,
14:07
Speaker 1: So you get two needles. You got your white swan
14:09
Speaker 1: your black Swan. And as they're fighting, they break a mirror,
14:12
Speaker 1: a shard embedding into the black Swan's stomach, only for
14:16
Speaker 1: her to transform back into Lily, now bleeding on the floor. Panicked,
14:22
Speaker 1: Nina hides her body in the bathroom and goes back
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Speaker 1: to the stage to dance the Black Swan, losing herself
14:28
Speaker 1: just as the director kept pushing her to. Also, that's
14:31
Speaker 1: the common theme. That's the name of the song that
14:33
Speaker 1: often plays. It's called Lose Yourself, and she she does
14:36
Speaker 1: this dance like flawlessly. She she grows feathers and wings
14:41
Speaker 1: as she does it. It's very you've probably seen that
14:44
Speaker 1: image before she kisses the director backstage before returning to
14:50
Speaker 1: the stage to thunderous applause, star wars reference Natalie Portman.
14:55
Speaker 1: She goes back to her dressing room to change back
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Speaker 1: into the white swan, only to be into up did
15:00
Speaker 1: by Lily, who congratulates her on her performance and says
15:04
Speaker 1: she'll let her finish um and Nina frantically checks the bathroom,
15:08
Speaker 1: but there is nobody or blood. She looks down and
15:10
Speaker 1: realizes the shard is in her own stomach, standing her
15:13
Speaker 1: white uniform with blood still, she returns to the stage
15:18
Speaker 1: to finish the performance, catching sight of her mom watching
15:20
Speaker 1: her with tears before she takes the final swan dive,
15:24
Speaker 1: the crowd giving her a standing ovation. The director comes
15:27
Speaker 1: back to where she is laying on the mattress, praising
15:29
Speaker 1: her performance and calling her little Princess, before he realizes
15:33
Speaker 1: she is bleeding, demanding someone to call for help and
15:36
Speaker 1: asking what she did. Nina says that she was perfect,
15:40
Speaker 1: and the movie ends with the audience chanting her name
15:43
Speaker 1: and clapp yes so I'm so much I could add
16:00
Speaker 1: fact here, but I did want to touch on obviously
16:03
Speaker 1: the mental illness aspect, because I know, like a lot
16:07
Speaker 1: of horror movies is pretty problematic trope, and a lot
16:10
Speaker 1: of horror movies where that is used as sort of
16:12
Speaker 1: the horror, and it is clear like throughout you're not
16:17
Speaker 1: sure what's real and what's not, and you're always questioning,
16:20
Speaker 1: questioning that and questioning the validity of her interpretation of things,
16:25
Speaker 1: you know, her paranoia. But she is certainly like needed
16:31
Speaker 1: help one but was a perfectionist and could not like
16:38
Speaker 1: let go of being perfect and pushing herself to be perfect.
16:44
Speaker 1: But I also think it's interesting this whole aspect of
16:47
Speaker 1: like art and the kind of expectations around it, of
16:52
Speaker 1: expectations of sharing your pain are going through pain or
16:59
Speaker 1: being expected or even applauded when something is painful, difficult
17:07
Speaker 1: mentally or physically. Because throughout there's also just all his
17:09
Speaker 1: imagery of the damage on her body, like constantly you
17:15
Speaker 1: see the like her toes or how thin she is,
17:20
Speaker 1: and that was I remember when this came out me
17:23
Speaker 1: like Cuness gave an interview where she said, like it
17:27
Speaker 1: looks good on screen, but it was so unhealthy, like
17:29
Speaker 1: we were so thin, and just remember reading about like
17:34
Speaker 1: their diets and how much exercise they did, and it's
17:39
Speaker 1: it's weird when you watch a movie that is about
17:41
Speaker 1: art and then like you learned about kind of the
17:44
Speaker 1: same thing that's happening really as they're making the movie.
17:48
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, right, are imitating life. I guess
17:51
Speaker 1: it's that what they always say. Nell Department was probosely
17:54
Speaker 1: getting smaller and smaller. Yeah, but then there was this
17:58
Speaker 1: whole thing about her self harming. So the scratches came
18:00
Speaker 1: on pretty early on, which is when we see the interactions.
18:04
Speaker 1: It was I think even before they started talking about
18:06
Speaker 1: doing Black Swan, even though they have been practicing it already.
18:10
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, that's the end that was self inflicted.
18:12
Speaker 1: But she was trying to pretend like she wasn't self inflicted.
18:15
Speaker 1: But that was a habit that her mom caught early on,
18:18
Speaker 1: knowing that that was going to pull her to upbreak
18:20
Speaker 1: down because she mentioned is happening again? Isn't that so
18:23
Speaker 1: something had happened previously that made her think there's a
18:27
Speaker 1: lot to it, of course, but there seemed to be
18:29
Speaker 1: an indication that this is a pattern for her and
18:31
Speaker 1: it was part of her stress and part of her
18:33
Speaker 1: reaction to stress. Yes, yeah, and it's I always kind
18:39
Speaker 1: of thought. And again I'm someone who reads like perhaps
18:41
Speaker 1: too deeply into things a lot, but I always kind
18:43
Speaker 1: of thought it was like her feeling that she was
18:44
Speaker 1: imperfect manifesting like on her on her body, and she
18:49
Speaker 1: because she is really really hard on herself and in
18:53
Speaker 1: a strange way, that is what holds her back a
18:57
Speaker 1: lot of times, is that she's so afraid of not
19:01
Speaker 1: being perfect that she doesn't it holds her back. But
19:05
Speaker 1: I yeah, I did want to talk about the relationship
19:07
Speaker 1: between mother and daughter in this because it's very toxic.
19:11
Speaker 1: And back when I was having that, you know, early
19:17
Speaker 1: in PRISMNTI feminist movie Friday conversation in college with my friends,
19:21
Speaker 1: one of the things I thought was the most interesting
19:23
Speaker 1: was one of my friends was like, well, obviously there
19:25
Speaker 1: was some sexual abuse that happened. I was like, what
19:28
Speaker 1: that is not what I picked up on, But it
19:32
Speaker 1: is very like I feel like it's a very infantilizing,
19:36
Speaker 1: like she's trying to keep her and her little girl state,
19:38
Speaker 1: like her room is, you know, in shades of pink.
19:41
Speaker 1: It's very childish, has all these stuffed animals in there,
19:44
Speaker 1: a lot of their like her mom calls her all
19:47
Speaker 1: the time and calls the secretary of complaining about stuff
19:51
Speaker 1: at the ballet place for Nina all the time. And
19:54
Speaker 1: there's this she she's just very controlling and very protective
20:00
Speaker 1: of than that narrative of you know, I had to
20:03
Speaker 1: She even says the one point, you know, like I
20:04
Speaker 1: had to give up my career because of you, and
20:08
Speaker 1: I think feeling that guilt and and seeing kind of
20:14
Speaker 1: Nina sayers an ally. Portman's character go from defending Beth
20:18
Speaker 1: and saying like, you know, you can dance into you know,
20:20
Speaker 1: Fontane danced into her forties or whatever, and then at
20:25
Speaker 1: the end she's got saying, you know you were old, Bobby,
20:28
Speaker 1: like it didn't matter that I was born, it was
20:31
Speaker 1: too late for you. And that whole scene where she's
20:35
Speaker 1: sort of replacing Beth, and in the back of her
20:37
Speaker 1: mind she must know like one day this is my moment,
20:40
Speaker 1: but one day someone will younger will replace me as well.
20:45
Speaker 1: But all let's say, I think there's a lot of
20:47
Speaker 1: resentment in there mother daughter relationship, right. I think there
20:52
Speaker 1: was also the conversation of like she saw herself as
20:56
Speaker 1: though wanted Natalie to succeed, but then when she saw her,
20:59
Speaker 1: she was past seeing her and leaving her behind. So
21:01
Speaker 1: there was this regret and needed to be needed. So
21:04
Speaker 1: that's all she knew at that point, So she wanted
21:06
Speaker 1: to push her to that point so that she could
21:08
Speaker 1: be successful. So I thought she was going to be
21:10
Speaker 1: that controlling mother that you see oftentimes when they pour
21:13
Speaker 1: their own mildlihoods and expectations into the child. But then
21:17
Speaker 1: it flipped real quick when she's like, oh, she's getting there.
21:20
Speaker 1: But I also think part of her paranoia blew up
21:23
Speaker 1: to making her mom the enemy. There was a lot
21:26
Speaker 1: of bad things, and her mom was actually caring for her.
21:28
Speaker 1: She really was like trying to stop her from doing
21:31
Speaker 1: all these bad things to herself in a really negative way.
21:34
Speaker 1: Like it was still talking the way she was trying
21:36
Speaker 1: to do it, but she's trying to save her daughter's life.
21:38
Speaker 1: She knew she was going to die. It's that's insane too. Yeah,
21:43
Speaker 1: it was just complicated. It was a complex relationship because
21:46
Speaker 1: she was definitely going about it in a very unhealthy way.
21:49
Speaker 1: She has that entire room of just like paintings of Nina,
21:52
Speaker 1: and it just feels like at the part where she
21:56
Speaker 1: hits Nina, it's because she said she had sex with
22:00
Speaker 1: two men, and so that felt to me like she
22:02
Speaker 1: was like, oh, you're gonna make the same mistake I did,
22:07
Speaker 1: even though it's implied that she it was like maybe
22:10
Speaker 1: this director fellow, not the guy, but like somebody in
22:13
Speaker 1: that position at the ballet place right who got her
22:16
Speaker 1: pregnant and was like you're fired, goodbye. Yeah, but definitely
22:22
Speaker 1: there was a vibe of not wanting Nina to make
22:26
Speaker 1: the same mistakes, but also wanting to be very controlling,
22:28
Speaker 1: not wanting her to surpass her, like you said, because
22:31
Speaker 1: she'll she'll say these comments that are very like biting
22:37
Speaker 1: when it it's almost like she's like, look, I know
22:40
Speaker 1: you try that, you work so hard, you're so good,
22:41
Speaker 1: but you're never going to get beyond this and that's
22:43
Speaker 1: just where you are. And that's fine, Nina, but it's
22:46
Speaker 1: Nina is like, no, I gotta push myself. I gotta
22:48
Speaker 1: fish myself. I gotta fish myself. Right. It was a
22:51
Speaker 1: really backheaded way of trying to slow her down and
22:54
Speaker 1: being healthy. It seemed, again, there are some moments that
22:58
Speaker 1: I was like, what did that actually happen? Or did
23:01
Speaker 1: so was she actually in the audience or was she
23:04
Speaker 1: not because she got her hand crushed twice? He did
23:08
Speaker 1: that happen or was that in her head? Like which
23:10
Speaker 1: part was the actual mother of what we were seeing?
23:13
Speaker 1: M hmm. I always thought she was there, But you're right,
23:18
Speaker 1: and it's so much of it is destabilizing in the reality.
23:22
Speaker 1: And then there's also that scene that it kind of
23:25
Speaker 1: relates to what we've been talking about lately, but where
23:28
Speaker 1: she Nina finds out she gets the part she's like,
23:30
Speaker 1: so having calls her mom and she comes home and
23:32
Speaker 1: her mom has this cake and I mean it's like
23:36
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, no, no, I can't it's too big.
23:37
Speaker 1: It's too big. And then her mom was like, oh,
23:39
Speaker 1: it's garbage and like goes to throw it away and
23:42
Speaker 1: then Nina's like, Okay, no, I'll eat it. I'll eat it.
23:44
Speaker 1: But just moments of that of being like really controlling
23:47
Speaker 1: and dependent on each other very unhealthy way, right for sure,
23:54
Speaker 1: Like it was one of those moments of like, Okay,
23:57
Speaker 1: she's not eating but then she just pitched to fet
24:01
Speaker 1: what what so that both of those things like yeah,
24:03
Speaker 1: you don't want her to eat a slice the case exactly,
24:06
Speaker 1: but at the same time, you don't want the mother
24:08
Speaker 1: to force her and make her feel guilty in gas
24:10
Speaker 1: lighting her doing these things. Yes, yes, es, Yes, I
24:15
Speaker 1: also did want to talk about I can feel like
24:17
Speaker 1: we talked about this all the time. But this movie
24:19
Speaker 1: is very much like The Madonna and or The Good
24:22
Speaker 1: Girl the Bad Girl. You've got your good, sweet, innocent
24:25
Speaker 1: white swan who was timid and virginal describes as a virginal,
24:30
Speaker 1: and then you've got the black swan who has seen
24:32
Speaker 1: as like sensual and much more like free and alive.
24:36
Speaker 1: And there, I mean, there's one scene in this where
24:39
Speaker 1: because Lily is clearly like the black Swan embodiment, she's
24:45
Speaker 1: I was watching it last night even though I really
24:46
Speaker 1: don't need to because I've seen this a million times,
24:48
Speaker 1: but I loved it. But Mila Cutest is like rosspart
24:52
Speaker 1: who is the sorcerer addressed all in black the cast
24:55
Speaker 1: to spell. At the beginning, she's sort of this person
24:57
Speaker 1: that keeps catching Nina's attention. And then at the scene
25:03
Speaker 1: where she is like hovering over Nina's shoulder like she's
25:09
Speaker 1: the devil on her shoulder. But there's a scene where
25:13
Speaker 1: there they go out to the restaurant and Allie Portman
25:18
Speaker 1: Nina gets you know, like a salad, Amila Cunas gets
25:22
Speaker 1: a burger and it's like extra cheese and it's rare,
25:26
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is a cool girl. This is
25:28
Speaker 1: the cool girl Joe Raser right exactly. She's also the
25:34
Speaker 1: one that gets the guy and then shuts down the waiter. Yes, yes,
25:37
Speaker 1: Like it's very very flirty and just painted as like
25:43
Speaker 1: everything is you know, easy and light, and she's you know,
25:45
Speaker 1: fun and willing to live life. And Nina next to
25:48
Speaker 1: hers is just like so repressed and closed off. And yeah,
25:53
Speaker 1: Lily keeps telling her live a little and she is,
25:56
Speaker 1: I mean, Nina is very repressed. But like if we're
25:58
Speaker 1: looking at like the lual ism of what's going on,
26:02
Speaker 1: and essentially it is, yeah, you can not be this
26:07
Speaker 1: version a all white white swan or this very sexual
26:13
Speaker 1: black swan who all the men want to be with.
26:16
Speaker 1: Apparently even though when he was like would you that
26:22
Speaker 1: girl and he's talking about Alie port like, uh, alright, dude,
26:28
Speaker 1: I don't know what I think about. But there's also
26:31
Speaker 1: a scene where it's just a man masturbating on the
26:34
Speaker 1: subway like an old man, and he's looking at her.
26:37
Speaker 1: And every time I see that scene, I'm like, I'm
26:39
Speaker 1: not sure and I'm meant to take from this other
26:42
Speaker 1: than like she's extremely uncomfortable in her kind of image
26:45
Speaker 1: and how people perceive her as being one way. But
26:48
Speaker 1: you would be, anybody would be that's a that's actually
26:53
Speaker 1: a crime. So to me, this is one of those
26:56
Speaker 1: moments of Aronofski making a shock value demoralized and women,
27:00
Speaker 1: and I know that what's the point. He literally wanted
27:03
Speaker 1: to talk about how women are the mean to these
27:06
Speaker 1: subjects of whether it's for us being the virgin or
27:09
Speaker 1: being a whore, like you can't be either, or you
27:11
Speaker 1: are the overbearing mother, which we've seen a lot, and
27:15
Speaker 1: or the mother who can't protect their children like those
27:18
Speaker 1: are his kind of his themes. I've only seen two
27:21
Speaker 1: of his films, so I guess maybe I'm just generalizing,
27:24
Speaker 1: but because of what I know of his kind of personality,
27:27
Speaker 1: what he's been accused of, and then what I know
27:30
Speaker 1: of a mother, and then coming back to see this,
27:32
Speaker 1: which is one of the ones that made him a
27:34
Speaker 1: big name, coming back to see this, I was like, yeah, there,
27:37
Speaker 1: it is exactly. I think another thing was shocking to
27:39
Speaker 1: me because of these are the expectations of Aronofsky. These
27:44
Speaker 1: are the expectations of kind of how he uses as
27:46
Speaker 1: women in his own movies, how he uses women in
27:49
Speaker 1: real life. So to me, none of that And I
27:53
Speaker 1: say this in real life as in like what I've
27:55
Speaker 1: read about him, even in his past relationships and and
27:59
Speaker 1: and his you know, of those things that I'm like, Okay,
28:02
Speaker 1: he is that director that I would be very much
28:04
Speaker 1: afraid to have anybody tell me how it was to
28:07
Speaker 1: work with him because of those demands. And again, like
28:10
Speaker 1: I know part of that it was because he pushed them,
28:13
Speaker 1: because he wanted to see this level of angst and depravity,
28:19
Speaker 1: because it was what he was trying to convey. Again,
28:22
Speaker 1: this goes back to and we probably have a larger
28:24
Speaker 1: conversation of types like sex scenes and abuse scenes and
28:28
Speaker 1: how far should we go for in the name of art?
28:32
Speaker 1: How far should a woman be pushed in the name
28:35
Speaker 1: of art? And this is one of those prime examples
28:38
Speaker 1: of that of what we're pushing women to be. And again,
28:41
Speaker 1: Mila Kunez, I love that she came out with like
28:44
Speaker 1: this is bad. We went through something really horrible to
28:46
Speaker 1: make it through this film. But yeah, so Natalie Forman
28:49
Speaker 1: one the Academy Awards for this role. She wanted as
28:54
Speaker 1: the best Leading Actress in a drama. And I get
28:58
Speaker 1: that this is such a big, big deal and where
29:01
Speaker 1: she did, and I'm sure she she's very proud of
29:04
Speaker 1: this moment. But that's that level. But where were pushing
29:06
Speaker 1: these artists, which is the same thing that he was.
29:09
Speaker 1: It was very meta and that he was kind of
29:11
Speaker 1: accusing the ballet industry of abusing their women, but in
29:15
Speaker 1: actuality he did the same thing for this movie. Uh
29:18
Speaker 1: So I feel like to me, like seems like the
29:21
Speaker 1: masturbation state is literally to put back into perspective of yes,
29:26
Speaker 1: how innocent she is, and oh my goodness, it almost
29:29
Speaker 1: to the point that yes, I supposed feel creepy about it,
29:32
Speaker 1: but also normalize it as if you should expect it
29:35
Speaker 1: for this to happen. She should have expected it as
29:38
Speaker 1: this beautiful young dancer on public transportation that an old
29:41
Speaker 1: man is going to masturbate to her like it's and again,
29:44
Speaker 1: like I said, I could be stretching that to like
29:46
Speaker 1: angry feminist, why do we have to go to these
29:49
Speaker 1: links for us to be successful as being women and
29:53
Speaker 1: being taken seriously. And that's kind of that level dog
29:58
Speaker 1: in a line, And I think we're gonna talking about
29:59
Speaker 1: it in a minute, but like I felt like the
30:00
Speaker 1: same scene with and I get that was a point,
30:03
Speaker 1: but the sex thing between a Mela Kunas and Natalie
30:06
Speaker 1: Portman felt like it was for the male gaze more
30:10
Speaker 1: so than the movie. Well yeah, and that's interesting because I,
30:15
Speaker 1: like I said, I had my first sex dream. After
30:17
Speaker 1: that I turned on. But now that I'm like older,
30:22
Speaker 1: it is kind of like another example of crevating, and
30:25
Speaker 1: crevating is really complicated. We talked about in a whole episode.
30:27
Speaker 1: You couldn't look at it, but I was. I was
30:29
Speaker 1: kind of like, let them get together, even though it
30:31
Speaker 1: was very unhealthy, right, um, But I did want to
30:36
Speaker 1: talk about what you were just discussing. Is this uneven
30:39
Speaker 1: power dynamic between especially in this case, the male director
30:45
Speaker 1: of the valet and now the apportman specifically I mean Nina,
30:50
Speaker 1: but all all the vallet answers really, but in this
30:53
Speaker 1: case her and just so many instances of like him
30:57
Speaker 1: abusing his position in the name of are like you
31:00
Speaker 1: were talking about like really going too far, but it
31:05
Speaker 1: being for the art, and it is because Aaronofski is
31:10
Speaker 1: That's kind of what Mother was about, is like, you know,
31:13
Speaker 1: men taking women who are their muses and putting them
31:17
Speaker 1: through some to make the art that they'll be credited for,
31:21
Speaker 1: rewarded for, and then throwing away that, you know, traumatized
31:27
Speaker 1: woman who was their muse. So it is. It is weird.
31:31
Speaker 1: And sometimes you see a movie and you're like, or
31:33
Speaker 1: any books, because every time I read a Stephen King book,
31:36
Speaker 1: I'm like, so this is you, Stephen King, this is yours.
31:40
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's not good if I'm like, are you
31:43
Speaker 1: like vibing with this ballet art director? Right? Yeah, So
32:05
Speaker 1: this whole movie was apparently kind of inspired by the
32:11
Speaker 1: quote shadowy world of understudies and doppelgangers and kind of
32:19
Speaker 1: taking that and then turning it into a psychological horror movie.
32:23
Speaker 1: But also yeah, about ageism and this whole just idea
32:26
Speaker 1: of getting replaced, which I thought was interesting because as
32:30
Speaker 1: you watch it and Nina is having hallucinations in paranoia,
32:36
Speaker 1: you are unsure of like, Okay, I mean the understudy
32:43
Speaker 1: is kind of there to replace you, But how much
32:46
Speaker 1: of this is paranoia, how much of it is really
32:48
Speaker 1: actually trying to sabotage you? Right, M Right? At what
32:53
Speaker 1: points was she really there and what she will like
32:55
Speaker 1: to me? I will unnoticed when Lily shows up to
32:59
Speaker 1: the apartment it the mother doesn't acknowledge her, The mother
33:02
Speaker 1: doesn't see her the entire time, the mother doesn't talk
33:05
Speaker 1: to her. So I'm wondering if she was actually showed up,
33:08
Speaker 1: as opposed to maybe like she went out with her,
33:12
Speaker 1: and they did go out, but she never showed up like.
33:15
Speaker 1: I wondered both of those things because I purposely watched
33:18
Speaker 1: the mom's reaction. She never acknowledges as if she was there. Yeah,
33:22
Speaker 1: And that's and I see her growing concern when she's
33:25
Speaker 1: talking about So it could be that she's growing concerned
33:27
Speaker 1: because she's leaving the house or strong concerned because she's
33:30
Speaker 1: having an imaginating conversation with no one there. Yeah. Yeah,
33:34
Speaker 1: I always like upon after the movie is done. The
33:38
Speaker 1: first time, I thought that she had been there, but
33:41
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, she wasn't there. The way it shot
33:43
Speaker 1: is like Lily is kind of like over her shoulder, yes,
33:46
Speaker 1: and seeing the lines with her as she says them. Um,
33:49
Speaker 1: So I don't think she was there, but it is
33:52
Speaker 1: you know, all these things that you've got a question,
33:56
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of like elements of gas lighting
34:00
Speaker 1: throughout where you're kind of I can't tell how much
34:04
Speaker 1: of it is gaslighting and how much of it is
34:06
Speaker 1: something did or did not happen. I'm a hallucination right. Well,
34:10
Speaker 1: to be fair, the original Beth was thinking that the
34:14
Speaker 1: entire time that now Department Nina's character was coming after her,
34:17
Speaker 1: and she didn't want her to be like I don't
34:20
Speaker 1: know if maybe this was a rerun of what happened
34:22
Speaker 1: to the person before her, but it kind of was
34:24
Speaker 1: that same insinuation that you're trying to beat me, you're
34:27
Speaker 1: trying to replace me, and she kind of was because
34:29
Speaker 1: she stole her to look like her. Yeah, and then
34:32
Speaker 1: at the end, when she goes to visit that at
34:34
Speaker 1: the hospital, Nina is like, I understand, now she's out
34:38
Speaker 1: to give me, she's trying to get me, and that's like,
34:40
Speaker 1: you stold my things, right, and then it devolves from there. Okay,
34:45
Speaker 1: but I did want to talk about this because back
34:48
Speaker 1: in my when I first saw this movie, I thought
34:52
Speaker 1: that the whole thing was about the female orgasm. Okay, interesting, yes,
35:00
Speaker 1: because and you know we're gonna use some language as
35:03
Speaker 1: not totally uh. I guess the problematic is problematic and
35:07
Speaker 1: how we think about orgasms and how sex works and
35:10
Speaker 1: orgasms don't have to be the end all be all,
35:12
Speaker 1: but that is how we discussed them a lot. But
35:15
Speaker 1: throughout the movie, there's so many lines where it's like,
35:19
Speaker 1: just let her finish, lose yourself, and it it's like constantly,
35:24
Speaker 1: every time she's on the verge of a breakthrough of
35:26
Speaker 1: losing herself of an orgasm, something happens she's interrupted, And
35:35
Speaker 1: so I thought the first time I saw this, I
35:38
Speaker 1: thought it was about the fear of the female orgasm,
35:41
Speaker 1: because when she finally does finish, she does and ors
35:46
Speaker 1: very injured. It's that at the very least, right, and
35:51
Speaker 1: it's definitely like, maybe that's not what the whole meaning is,
35:54
Speaker 1: or maybe I was reading too much into it, but
35:56
Speaker 1: that is the theme throughout is that she never gets
36:00
Speaker 1: too she is repressed and she never gets to have
36:04
Speaker 1: this sexual experience of sexual orgasm. But that doesn't she
36:08
Speaker 1: finished with me la kunas No, does she not? I
36:11
Speaker 1: thought she did mm hmm no, because since she they
36:15
Speaker 1: were like on the urge the edge, I guess, and
36:19
Speaker 1: then she looks up in her own face and then
36:21
Speaker 1: the pillow in her face, and so she does not
36:25
Speaker 1: Plus she probably wasn't well, who knows what was happening
36:28
Speaker 1: at that point, if she was masturbating her cab scene too. Yes,
36:36
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that was a hallucination as well, right right,
36:41
Speaker 1: my assumption as well. Yeah, I would not have gone there.
36:45
Speaker 1: That was not my thoughts. That's an interesting thing. See,
36:51
Speaker 1: this is what I love about when you have these
36:54
Speaker 1: conversations with friends and there's like feminism involved. I'm like,
36:57
Speaker 1: I think people to this movie Afraid Lady having an orgas.
37:03
Speaker 1: My thought was that a woman could not be fully human.
37:08
Speaker 1: That was my whole thing until like she gave everything
37:11
Speaker 1: up of herself and then sacrificed yourself and then you
37:14
Speaker 1: could be credited as human mm hmm, Like yeah, or
37:19
Speaker 1: either just that any value the art, Yeah, of having
37:25
Speaker 1: to really put your your health, physical and mental health
37:30
Speaker 1: on the line, And I guess I would include not
37:32
Speaker 1: having orgasms. I could. I mean, it's just so funny.
37:37
Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to talk about this for so long,
37:39
Speaker 1: because I was so adamant about it and this was
37:42
Speaker 1: before I really you know, I was, I was learning
37:45
Speaker 1: more and more about feminism and how we talked about
37:47
Speaker 1: these kinds of things. But I'm just surprised that I
37:50
Speaker 1: was so strongly of the opinion at this point that
37:53
Speaker 1: that's what it was about. And when I say, like,
37:57
Speaker 1: it's problematic in terms of, you know, as we've discussed
38:00
Speaker 1: in a lot of recent episodes, it's the orgasm doesn't
38:03
Speaker 1: have to be the end or the you know, the thing.
38:06
Speaker 1: But a lot of the music when she's like masturbating
38:09
Speaker 1: and you know, almost there is building like it's like
38:13
Speaker 1: leading up to this, which does make sense, but that
38:15
Speaker 1: also gives like the narrative of just let her finish,
38:19
Speaker 1: like and that is the end all, which it doesn't
38:22
Speaker 1: have to be. But I remember I was like shouting
38:24
Speaker 1: that at the screen. I'm like, just let her finish.
38:29
Speaker 1: The whole reason I want to talk about this obviously,
38:31
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like themes that I have thought about.
38:36
Speaker 1: It will change the way you watch it more like
38:40
Speaker 1: I see where your head's at, Annie, I see what
38:42
Speaker 1: it has that. I mean, again, the first extreme might
38:45
Speaker 1: ever had after this movie. So maybe my head was
38:48
Speaker 1: in a very specific place at this point in time, Hey,
38:52
Speaker 1: you do you? Yes, let me speak to you how
38:56
Speaker 1: it needs to speak to you. Yes, you know I
38:59
Speaker 1: appreciate that. That the I will say, like at the
39:03
Speaker 1: time when this came out, I don't think it was
39:05
Speaker 1: still pretty and it still is pretty risk ay, even
39:08
Speaker 1: though you know it really shouldn't be. But to show
39:10
Speaker 1: a woman masturbating that was like the first instance I
39:13
Speaker 1: had seen it, and I'm sure it's even more shocking
39:16
Speaker 1: because it was Natalie Portman. Like, there's so many things
39:18
Speaker 1: to who she is as an individual that were having Again,
39:23
Speaker 1: this is very much her role, Like to me, yes,
39:27
Speaker 1: this is so as suited for her from jump from
39:29
Speaker 1: being that, playing innocent, being very like all of these things,
39:32
Speaker 1: even though even as a child she never was a
39:35
Speaker 1: child actor like we know this her first role was
39:37
Speaker 1: really really deep and dark and a fantastic role. But like, oh,
39:41
Speaker 1: this should be for an adult, but there's no way
39:44
Speaker 1: any other child like she really pulled it off as
39:47
Speaker 1: a child in these roles. But at the same time
39:49
Speaker 1: you still have her as an innocent, young, all American
39:52
Speaker 1: sweet girl. So having her masturbate as a timid almost
39:56
Speaker 1: herself as almost what we would expect of her like
39:59
Speaker 1: the character. For her to do that is shocking in itself. Yeah. Yeah,
40:04
Speaker 1: And I remember also at this time, now you're making
40:08
Speaker 1: me analyze all my stuff that was going on. But
40:10
Speaker 1: I just bought my first vibrator, I just learned about masturbation.
40:16
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a whole awakening that ties to
40:18
Speaker 1: this movie for you. I think so. I had never
40:21
Speaker 1: thought about it in this way. Thank you say so.
40:27
Speaker 1: At the time when it came out, I don't think
40:30
Speaker 1: I've ever seen anything like that. I was even like,
40:33
Speaker 1: is that how are you masturate? I didn't know. People
40:35
Speaker 1: were like, no, I don't think I've seen like a
40:39
Speaker 1: sex scene between women, or if I had not, like that, Yeah,
40:45
Speaker 1: clearly it stuck with me. And this is what I
40:47
Speaker 1: at the time. I was like, that orgasm, it's what
40:49
Speaker 1: you took from it, got it? Yeah? Yeah, I think
40:53
Speaker 1: that's a lot to say in this self. I feel
40:57
Speaker 1: like you're judging me, but it's all right, not judging
40:59
Speaker 1: you at all, because I was like, huh, and I
41:02
Speaker 1: think you told me this before and it didn't click,
41:04
Speaker 1: and then watching it and I'm like I still don't
41:06
Speaker 1: get it, but okay, get it. I do get it.
41:12
Speaker 1: I felt like that was like, that would have been
41:13
Speaker 1: never the conclusion I had come to that. Again, I
41:17
Speaker 1: have a lot more. I was already tainted by so
41:20
Speaker 1: many previous conversations about this movie in general. So I
41:24
Speaker 1: was already very aware of kind of some of the
41:27
Speaker 1: things that we're floating out there in conversation to this movie.
41:30
Speaker 1: Not your conversation that was new what I have perceived. Yeah,
41:38
Speaker 1: and I will say, like, if this was a different podcast,
41:41
Speaker 1: we'd go more into it. But there was also controversy
41:44
Speaker 1: about how much dancing Alie Portman did do actually do
41:48
Speaker 1: versus what they said she actually did, and then austar
41:51
Speaker 1: around the costuming and who got credit for the costuming.
41:56
Speaker 1: But it seems very complicated, right, seems go out of
42:00
Speaker 1: hear say, I don't want to. I'm not coming out
42:02
Speaker 1: on anybody's side. I'm just saying I know that that exists.
42:06
Speaker 1: So yes, and just have y I yes. So she
42:10
Speaker 1: married Benjamin Millipede, who is a French ballet dancer, and
42:16
Speaker 1: he was the choreographer David Moreau. So I don't know,
42:20
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I think that's her partner
42:22
Speaker 1: in the movie. Oh yes, this is how she met
42:25
Speaker 1: her husband. All right, well, yeah, I mean I could
42:30
Speaker 1: keep going on and on because I just have so
42:31
Speaker 1: many thoughts about so much of this stuff in this movie. Um,
42:37
Speaker 1: and just also the pressure for women to feel perfect
42:40
Speaker 1: and the pressure to put up with stuff we really
42:45
Speaker 1: shouldn't have to put up with, because that's where the
42:49
Speaker 1: industry was. I mean, pretty soon after this, the ballet
42:51
Speaker 1: industry did have their whole me too movement. I mean,
42:54
Speaker 1: I guess a couple of years, but still like they
42:56
Speaker 1: they underwent that as well. And uh, there's just a
43:02
Speaker 1: lot about yeah, the art that goes in into this
43:07
Speaker 1: and what we expected women. But otherwise I keep going,
43:11
Speaker 1: We'll never stop. Yes I did also, but you know,
43:16
Speaker 1: briefly want to say, I think it's interesting that the
43:18
Speaker 1: dichotomy of the white swan, black swan, the madonna, the whore,
43:22
Speaker 1: like you get praised but also penalized for being the
43:26
Speaker 1: sweet girl to innocent, the virginal one, but people like
43:31
Speaker 1: the black sung better because she's flirty and fun. And
43:35
Speaker 1: I don't know, I find it interesting that there's like
43:38
Speaker 1: punishments involved in both if you straight out of your box,
43:42
Speaker 1: but also judgments involved in both. Yeah, alright, lots of things.
43:52
Speaker 1: Um well, I'm so glad we finally got to discuss
43:55
Speaker 1: this because it has been since two thousand ten, been
43:58
Speaker 1: on my mind apparently. But as always, listeners, if you
44:03
Speaker 1: have a suggestion for a movie, a book, a topic, anything,
44:06
Speaker 1: please contact us. You can emails at Stuff Media, Mom
44:09
Speaker 1: and stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can
44:11
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You
44:13
Speaker 1: or on Twitter at Moms Toff podcast. Thanks as always
44:15
Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to
44:19
Speaker 1: you for listening Stuff I Never Told You his prediction
44:20
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts on my Heart
44:22
Speaker 1: Radio is at the Hi radio app, Apple podcast, or
44:24
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.