Latest / Attachment Matters Podcast / AM S2 Ep 13: I see your pain.

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AM S2 Ep 13: I see your pain. · Attachment Matters Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
• 0:03
  This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
• 0:07
  passionate about the
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: subject of attachment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is Rose.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Stoic Mom.
• 0:13
  Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
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  of gender and
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  SPEAKER_00: identity,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: following very different routes to get here.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Through this experience,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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  Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
• 0:32
  relationship
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: between parents and their children,
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: despite all odds.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode,
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  Rose describes the mechanisms of defense and the
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  counterintuitive responses they
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  SPEAKER_00: create.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: She also introduces the concept of pivotal feelings,
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  SPEAKER_00: which Neufeld has identified as the motor that drives maturity.
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  We dive deep into our culture's well-intended but often
• 0:57
  wounding approach to stuck
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  defenses and reiterate the importance of safety to melt
• 1:02
  defenses and invite
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  SPEAKER_00: vulnerability.
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  We offer another reminder that play is often the best medicine
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  to soften the
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  SPEAKER_00: defenses and facilitate connection.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, Rose.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of those days.
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  SPEAKER_00: It took a little bit for us to make this happen.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Life is full for everyone.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it can feel like a lot sometimes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think for some it feels like a lot all the time.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: So this is another one of my heart on, heart on my sleeve episodes.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, just wearing my heart on my sleeve today.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tender.
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  SPEAKER_01: Very, very, very, very.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: Which is not a bad thing.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's, it's feeling it's.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's,
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  SPEAKER_00: The richness of life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just think it's beautiful that we can feel.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Feel what we feel.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a gift.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a gift.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, that's really what we're going to talk about today.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I hope,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  is the critical role in our maturation that these tender
• 2:43
  feelings play and how much
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: is sacrificed.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: when we are defended against them.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a gift to be able to feel grief,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to feel,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: the heart on the sleeve,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: tears on the edge of the verge of falling.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I can feel it as you're describing it.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can put myself...
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not all the way there, but I definitely know that tender feeling.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that fragile has always been my word for those times,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: but I've been working to switch it to tender.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I prefer tender.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Fragile implies something very different.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting what we have come to define as fragile,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is feeling our feelings,
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  SPEAKER_00: that somehow that's fragile,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: when it's the opposite,
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  SPEAKER_00: that the ability to feel our feelings is resilience.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  I appreciate you saying that because it just takes me right
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  back to like before,
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  like what I refer to the pin coming out of my head with like
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  the belief and...
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  you know being able to be born trans and that whole seeing it
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  as a belief system
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  and everything just crumbling for me before that it you know
• 4:33
  Neufeld really laid
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  SPEAKER_01: the foundations for me to like
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  start to move out of that ideological capture around some of
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  the woke operating system.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll just put it that way.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because I had been doing white anti-racism work for many years,
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  SPEAKER_01: and my friends and I,
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  SPEAKER_01: who I did it with,
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  we were very much about human connection and warmth and
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  relationship building.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just the way we operated.
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  SPEAKER_01: We came to operate.
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  It wasn't like that from the beginning,
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  but we kind of evolved into that,
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  which...
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  i still feel like you know complex feelings about yes i think
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  we were tapping into
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  something important in that aspect but i remember it was like i
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  had already been
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  probably like 10 years into that when d'angelo's white
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  fragility came out and then
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  SPEAKER_01: it just like swept like a tidal wave through those communities and um
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  I remember going on a bike ride with a friend and her being
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  talking about,
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  she was like interviewed after some workshop or some public
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  event she was a part of
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  SPEAKER_01: as a white woman.
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  And she started crying in the interview and how she just
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  explained to me how she
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  SPEAKER_01: just gave disclaimer after disclaimer.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not being fragile here.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: like I know that I shouldn't be crying as a white,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: and this is like,
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  SPEAKER_01: she's like not only one of my best friends,
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  SPEAKER_01: but like was a mentor to me,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: all of this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: And we can, thank goodness, continue to be friends to this day.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I remember pushing back and saying, that's not right.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: We, this is what makes us human.
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  SPEAKER_01: You have to be able to.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, so there were like cracks.
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  I remember that being like a really big initial one for me
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  because of immersing
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  SPEAKER_01: myself in the Neufeld material that I was like,
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: no,
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  SPEAKER_01: no,
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  SPEAKER_01: no.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is not okay to call tears, to pathologize tears.
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  SPEAKER_01: No matter who you're talking about.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, this is what we need.
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  SPEAKER_01: We need to be able to.
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  SPEAKER_01: So anyways, stories from the old days.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's bringing up thoughts for me,
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  but I know we've got some other content that we want to make
• 6:58
  sure we get to today.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I guess that one thing I would say is,
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  SPEAKER_00: There's a reason it resonated.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I never read that book by D'Angelo, the white virgin.
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  SPEAKER_00: Me neither.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I kind of gave it the middle finger.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's a movement that I think arose from a place of compassion.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, these things don't just...
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  come out of thin air you know they speak to something in us
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  yeah and then they they
• 7:39
  can kind of go off the rails right but but ultimately it was
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  intended to be a
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  compassionate movement yeah you know absolutely just like the
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  child's identity is
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  SPEAKER_00: is a rose to fill needs and
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  and that's really always at the root of our choices and
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  behaviors is we're trying
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  SPEAKER_00: to get our needs met.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Being moved to care for others as well.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  So today,
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  I think we're going to be continuing on this topic of
• 8:34
  vulnerability and the defenses.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to start,
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  SPEAKER_01: there was a piece that I said we were going to get to last episode,
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  SPEAKER_01: looking that again,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we never did.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I want to start there.
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  And that's just kind of reviewing what Dr.
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  Neufeld calls the mechanisms of defense.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, um,
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  SPEAKER_01: Just to review what those are.
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  SPEAKER_01: So,
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  SPEAKER_01: again,
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  SPEAKER_01: this idea of vulnerability,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we wear our heart on our sleeve,
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  SPEAKER_01: when we love,
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  SPEAKER_01: we can be hurt.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, that when we feel, our feelings can be wounded.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that our brains are designed,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  part of our human design is that when the vulnerability is too
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  much to bear,
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  SPEAKER_01: when the wounding is too much,
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  This is kicked in,
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  that our defenses are kicked in to protect us,
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  to allow us to function.
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  SPEAKER_01: despite the wounding, to just simply not feel it anymore.
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
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  So how can we kind of identify and describe what some of those
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  defenses actually are?
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: What are they defending against, okay?
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  SPEAKER_00: And this goes to support us
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  SPEAKER_00: in what we see.
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  Because as we've talked about many,
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  many times,
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  what we see is going to determine what we do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to find what we're looking for.
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  So having this information can help us change what we see so we
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  can respond differently.
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  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
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  SPEAKER_01: So let's just look at those mechanisms of defense.
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  The first one is kind of the most obvious,
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  I would say,
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  which is emotional defense.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we've talked about this somewhat already in the past couple episodes,
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  SPEAKER_01: just that the defenses get kicked in and that mechanism is to
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  SPEAKER_01: defend against feeling our emotions,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially feeling those vulnerable feelings,
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  SPEAKER_01: whether it's the feelings of futility and sadness,
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: feelings of joy and fulfillment,
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  SPEAKER_01: shyness or embarrassment,
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  SPEAKER_01: you name it.
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  It's an emotional defense where we're not going to feel that
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  which would hurt us or
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  SPEAKER_01: wound us emotionally.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: The second mechanism of defense would be perceptual.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is where things get a little more interesting than I,
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  SPEAKER_01: I know I mentioned to you,
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  I think in the first episode that we started to talk about
• 11:32
  vulnerability and
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: defenses,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: when I mentioned this one,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: you were like,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh,
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to come back.
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  And what Newfield speaks to with the perceptual defenses is
• 11:42
  kind of fascinating because
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially,
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  it is when something that we see or notice or perceive is the
• 11:57
  source of that
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  SPEAKER_01: wounding or that vulnerability that is too much.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so that mechanism of the brain kicks it in.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like we are aligned to it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Our actual perception of a situation can be defended.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we block it out?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're saying?
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Our perception can be defended.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the example that he uses,
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  and I'm going to give an example with my own son where I feel
• 12:29
  like I can see this
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  SPEAKER_01: playing out,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: is
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the example that he uses is like a child in class.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And he says that this is I don't want to make a huge generalization here.
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  This is just one possibility that some of the children that we
• 12:45
  get diagnosed as
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: ADHD for not being able to pay attention.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: In some cases, this could actually be a perceptual defense.
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  SPEAKER_01: A child in a classroom,
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  SPEAKER_01: if he or she feels like it's a wounding environment,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: not being smart enough,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: not having the right answer,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: not doing the right thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: not meeting expectations,
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  SPEAKER_01: when called upon or spoken to by a teacher,
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  SPEAKER_01: that defense is going to make the kid look the other way.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was a teacher.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And even my own daughter.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do remember trying to sit with her and work with her on math.
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  SPEAKER_00: And her just, yeah, she, their whole body turns away.
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  You know,
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  I had some kids who would literally get up and start moving
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  around the room.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: during certain types of intensive support,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: when it was something that,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: oh goodness,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I despised,
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  SPEAKER_00: I had such a hard time with tutoring and reading,
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: with these,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: because by the time they got to me,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: and I was a secondary teacher,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I
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  SPEAKER_00: I think these defenses were already in place.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 14:10
  because they were already experiencing the impact to their
• 14:15
  self-narrative,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would say.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, by the time they got to me.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it was heartbreaking for me.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could see something going on.
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  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have had this language for it.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was...
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was a bit of a rebel teacher,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: because what I would tell parents is don't stress about it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your child not reading, that's not your problem.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 14:44
  don't make this a problem between you and the child and don't
• 14:47
  force that child,
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: to get them to where they're reading because...
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: there's something else going on.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just knew that and I knew it was not intuitively.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't risk that relationship.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's, it's not, it's not worth it.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And don't take it on.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, your kid's going to be okay.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is not the end of the world.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like don't, don't, give it some space, give it some space.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:17
  You know,
• 15:17
  the pressure,
• 15:18
  but the pressure,
• 15:18
  I would also say the pressure was on teachers,
• 15:21
  right?
• 15:22
  right teachers needed to get that child to read even though
• 15:26
  again clearly you know
• 15:29
  there this kid was gonna pick it up later and it was gonna be
• 15:32
  okay you know it just
• 15:34
  feels so high stakes in that environment so high stakes and it
• 15:40
  was yeah yeah yeah
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 15:47
  it's fascinating because we have started homeschooling our
• 15:51
  younger son who's now
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: entering fifth grade at home.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: a big part of that decision,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: part of it was,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:00
  logistical in terms of our commute time to the school where
• 16:04
  they were both going.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now that my older son's in middle school, that's
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: Commute has been impacted.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So part of it was logistical,
• 16:11
  but the main part of it was because of him not being able to
• 16:17
  learn and function in
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: his class with kind of the makeup of the class with the kids.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, school just wasn't working for him.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's kind of the long and the short of it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating having him home now and working with him.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: On Friday morning, I had him, you know, he was reading his ELA.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: He does not want us to call it ELA.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I hate ELA.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just call it reading and writing, you know.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so he had read for like half hour straight.
• 16:54
  And then we went to sit down and there was going to be this
• 16:57
  written aspect to the lesson.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he was just
• 17:02
  totally done and and you can feel his attention going in the
• 17:08
  reverse you know just
• 17:11
  just or like the defense is kicking in and you know it is one
• 17:17
  of those times where
• 17:19
  you know thank goodness so much to be grateful for to have him
• 17:21
  at home where i can
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: say this isn't gonna work right now let's go on a bike ride
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 17:28
  and then what what ended up happening is he still wrote that
• 17:32
  five sentence
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: paragraph,
• 17:34
  but he did it Saturday afternoon up in this newly built
• 17:37
  treehouse we have in the
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: backyard.
• 17:39
  You know,
• 17:39
  with my partner sitting with him in a tree and just lightening
• 17:45
  it up.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that defense is not pushing in reverse, you know.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'd love to say a little bit more on this one if I could.
• 17:54
  And I know that for most of the parents listening,
• 17:57
  they're on the other side of this.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, their kids aren't still in school.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't think I had yet come into it at this point.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I was learning about motivation.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 18:13
  so I was I was on like the school's task force to kind of
• 18:17
  better understand how to
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: motivate children in the classroom.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it was tricky to even implement in this very school.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Tasked,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: me and this other,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: the other members of the team to learn about this.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So my point, though, is the stress process.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Which I'm sure goes hand in hand with that defense.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: that the more we amp up the stress,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: the more defended against that task that we want from that child,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: What we want them to complete.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's just going to make it harder and harder.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're going to
• 18:59
  The story that they are internalizing is that they hate
• 19:02
  learning because we are
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: equating this task with learning.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so just the narrative that gets developed,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: and that just sets that kid up for school being a bit of a nightmare.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I heard you doing,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: and this is what I would recommend to parents in these moments,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: was when your child is ready to read,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: they will.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's what it came down to.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And make it about play.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Don't make it about them learning to read.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Find things that they are really interested in that have words involved.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And get that in front of them.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 19:49
  Just so that it felt like play or that reading became the
• 19:54
  obstacle to what they wanted.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that's, yeah.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is a whole other sort of passion area for me.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you're going to have to keep me on task here.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 20:08
  But I just wanted to also bring it back to that other thing we
• 20:13
  have talked about so
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: often,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: which is play.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 20:17
  and I think that's another narrative that parents are grappling
• 20:21
  with because we're
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: trying to instill a certain work ethic.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I'm saying?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so then we've got somebody defended against work,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: because it feels so miserable and it creates so much stress.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 20:42
  And that in itself is fascinating because I don't know if you
• 20:46
  remember back to like
• 20:47
  our conversations on the integrative process where I was
• 20:51
  explaining what Neufeld
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: says that without that,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: a functioning integrative process,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: which is part of our maturation,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: so much to say.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:06
  A child doesn't intrinsically get the concept of work because
• 21:12
  work is sacrificing
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: towards a goal.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: But what happens all too often,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: and I agree with you,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: I could talk about this for hours,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: the preschooler content is such a passion area for me.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: When we are forcing work, this framework of work on a child prematurely.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Which school does.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it is not developmentally appropriate.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just put it that way.
• 21:42
  That for the immature play,
• 21:47
  which is not outcome-based,
• 21:48
  it's not for real.
• 21:50
  So what you're essentially doing is moving that child out of
• 21:53
  the work performance
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: paradigm and into this place where their defenses can melt.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: A bubble, a safe bubble.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not for real.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: There's no stakes.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they can explore.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: They can be creative.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And they're kind of that growth energy is freed up to flow,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: from the inside out versus kind of that pressure from the outside in.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, so much more we could talk about just so much.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we need to.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: OK.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But but anyways,
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: that that piece around the perceptual defenses,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: this I'm not trying to generalize here.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: All ADHD is a perceptual defense.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no, no.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what I'm saying.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying that this is a potential area.
• 22:46
  Where some children may get this diagnosis because they can't
• 22:51
  pay attention,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: OK,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: because they're not paying attention.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Where underneath it,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking about this model,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: this developmental model of Neufelds,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: the distinctive of this approach.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get to the root.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:04
  Why is this happening versus just labeling it with a diagnosis
• 23:10
  and trying to treat symptoms?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Let's figure out what is the cause of not paying attention?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is the cause of impulsivity?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: and get to that piece underneath to then over time,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: see some of those symptoms resolve.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: How about now?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can hear you.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a little faint.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: OK, so this is a lot.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is a lot.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: It opens up some floodgates.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: It opens up some floodgates.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not just about when I talk about the perceptual defenses.
• 24:04
  I just want to give another illustration I mentioned because
• 24:08
  it's it's huge
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: implications for school and these ADHD diagnoses.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: OK, potentially in some cases.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: And oppositional too.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can I just say that?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So many ODD.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think where we're going to,
• 24:25
  I don't know if we're going to end up here in this place today
• 24:28
  or in the following
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: episodes,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: but this is where we're headed.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Where are all these diagnoses coming from?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what are the implications of the medical model for treating them?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: We may not get there today, but like, this is where this is.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: what we're digging up here.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: What we're digging up to understand these roots.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: So should we say why yours?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just,
• 24:54
  I'm not sure where we're going to pick the recording back up
• 24:56
  and I'll just let
• 24:57
  listeners know we had some technical difficulties and then I
• 25:00
  had a little bit of a
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: meltdown.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very emotional.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's very emotional.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm grateful, you know, for this content.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really,
• 25:27
  really important to increase understanding and help people see
• 25:32
  things a little
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: differently.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if this is going to be very confusing for listeners.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that that's enough to explain?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So just to recap what you just said,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: once this episode is edited,
• 25:53
  we're hoping that it's a smooth conversation because we've had
• 25:57
  to interrupt it a
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: couple of times and press pause on the recording and
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: because of technical issues.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And during those little gaps,
• 26:07
  you were just kind of flooded with emotion with this idea that
• 26:13
  part of this
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: overwhelming diagnosis culture that we're in,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: the most dedicated,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: devoted parents have gotten swept up in some of this
• 26:31
  In the medical model of seeing the behavior,
• 26:35
  seeing the symptoms,
• 26:36
  and then medicating it.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this whole potential that in some cases, the roots of that are...
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: are in the defenses or in these other,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: kind of designs of us living as humans,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: and our responses to living in this wounding world.
• 27:05
  that aren't understood,
• 27:05
  that aren't seen,
• 27:07
  that insight isn't there,
• 27:09
  you know?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so the path that we go down,
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: is kind of set for us to just step on that conveyor belt.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, and with the deepest devotion and deepest, um,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: longing for our child to thrive and be healthy,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: we can do something that we may look back on and say,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I had had other information.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: To do it differently.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or felt like there were other options.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: You felt like you could take your son out of school and
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I did the same with both my kids.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: I did not think school was working for them.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so we did something different.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of families don't feel like that is an option.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:08
  And I want to give another example of perceptual defenses that
• 28:11
  I think links back
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: to,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: we're talking about ADHD,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: but then you were also talking about like oppositional defiant disorder.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: there's these other labels that diagnoses that get put on these,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: what could be a mechanism,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: what we're seeing is actually a perceptual defense,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: What's at play underneath,
• 28:33
  but then we put these other diagnoses on top of the behavior
• 28:37
  that results from
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I just wanted to give a different example.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about school,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: but then for me at home with my older son,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: and this links back to our conversation on sensitivity last episode.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Both of my sons are sensitive.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: They express it in very different ways.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it took me years to figure it out.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Years.
• 29:01
  But what happens with my older son is I do...
• 29:04
  You know,
• 29:04
  he gets defenses...
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: They run the gamut,
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: all of them,
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: just all the mechanisms kick in at different times,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: at different things,
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is part of his story of how all of the events with us have unfolded.
• 29:18
  But what I perceive to be a perceptual defense that is very
• 29:24
  confusing to me at
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: times is like,
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: it's bedtime.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: You need to brush your teeth.
• 29:32
  And he gets goofy and he kind of has this sort of sometimes
• 29:39
  somewhat off-putting
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: behavior where he'll be like pushing our buttons on purpose.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And our response is to like get, you know, stern with him.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is my best guess.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:54
  from reviewing this material recently and like being like,
• 29:57
  Oh,
• 29:57
  is that what's going on?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Our rejection of his humor is wounding.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to be funny.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: He just,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: he so yearns to be funny and connect,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: he's trying to connect through humor,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: but it's,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's not working.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of have almost like this cold response of,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And instead of stopping, he does it more.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: He does it more.
• 30:29
  And it's what Neufeld talks about with the perceptual defenses
• 30:32
  and wounding is
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 30:35
  it's counterintuitive because the child who is receiving the
• 30:42
  wounding becomes more
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: and more blind.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you gave this example last time.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you can see my look of confusion.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:04
  I'm having a hard time mapping it onto this to what I'm
• 31:08
  understanding as the perceptual defense.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so can you help me with that?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Help me see the defense.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: He can't see...
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: that he needs to stop.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: He can't see that it's not working.
• 31:30
  Because if he were to see that it's not fun,
• 31:34
  it would be profoundly embarrassing.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: It would be profoundly hurtful.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: So he just does it more.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: It gets bigger.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So he's unable to see your response.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're saying?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's too painful.
• 31:54
  It's too wounding because he's so tender underneath in his
• 32:00
  desire to be funny.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Huh.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:04
  And so then we just get sterner and sterner and he goes more
• 32:08
  and more because it's
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: like a cyclical,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: like the example that Dr.
• 32:13
  Neufeld gives in one of his talks about this is like the girl
• 32:17
  in elementary school
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: who wants to be a part of a friend group.
• 32:22
  And those girls are,
• 32:23
  you know,
• 32:24
  doing their kind of tribal behavior and they don't want her.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:27
  So they just kind of give her the cold shoulder,
• 32:29
  you know,
• 32:29
  kind of subtle cues socially.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And she is, the perceptual defenses kick in.
• 32:39
  And instead of saying they don't want me to spend time with
• 32:42
  them and she finds
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: someone else to spend time with,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: she tries harder.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then their cues have to be stronger.
• 32:52
  So this is that sort of social awkwardness where people can't
• 32:59
  see when they're not welcome.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Potentially, yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a defense.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: They literally,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: not literally,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: but they physiologically,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: physically,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: if that defense has kicked in,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: they can't see the rejection.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: They can't see that it's not landing.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's not willful.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: It is a perceptual blindness.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: A perceptual blindness.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: So this is very tricky,
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: for a parent like myself,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: who we're just like,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: why can't he hear me that I want him to see?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it gets very frustrating very quickly for both parties.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been so helpful for me to hear this content again and be like,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: if this is wounding to him that I'm rejecting the humor,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: he may not be able to see it.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Literally, it doesn't land my stern reaction.
• 34:15
  Maybe that's where we have to shift into that play mode with
• 34:18
  him and be like,
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: you're really goofy.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I need you to get your teeth brushed.
• 34:26
  And I need,
• 34:26
  you know,
• 34:27
  like,
• 34:27
  you know,
• 34:28
  trying to steer it in a way that isn't just like this.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: More playful.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what you're saying?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Because, yeah, I would be curious how to respond to that.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was confusing it.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Easy.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: With something.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, can I give you another example from the classroom?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do we have time?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think this might be something different.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:52
  But this is what came to my mind when you originally shared
• 34:55
  that example about your
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: son a couple episodes ago.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: So as a second grade teacher,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: something else,
• 35:01
  another phenomenon that was quite regular is I would get boys
• 35:08
  who had been labeled
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: troublemakers,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Again, but it's second grade.
• 35:13
  They've already got a reputation in the school as being a
• 35:16
  troublemaker,
• 35:16
  right?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was heartbreaking for me because they were these were clever boys.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: For whom school wasn't working, frankly, you know.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I know a lot of them get diagnosed, too.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and because because the costume is not a good fit.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: for their very active bodies and their very clever minds,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: and that's what I would see is these,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: and they would,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: they would,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: they were funny,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: Rose,
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like they were clever and the funny did land,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: or I could,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: it could land with me,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: at least in those situations.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: But again,
• 36:03
  my approach was counterintuitive because I would find a way to
• 36:11
  invite that into the
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: lesson,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or I would engage with them a little bit.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: I would see them instead of just shutting it down.
• 36:22
  But I'd be curious what,
• 36:24
  I mean,
• 36:24
  to me,
• 36:25
  that is also,
• 36:26
  I would imagine,
• 36:27
  a form of defense.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I wasn't thinking in defenses back then.
• 36:32
  It was more about,
• 36:34
  okay,
• 36:34
  I need to see this child instead of just seeing misbehavior.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I need to, they need to feel like I like them.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I need to delight in them.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that they feel that relationship and want to be good for me.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's what I was going for.
• 36:56
  But it was very,
• 36:59
  and I'm sure there are other teachers,
• 37:01
  many teachers who use that approach.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: But at that point,
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: there were lots of teachers who just didn't have that in their toolbox,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:11
  And could only see the misbehavior,
• 37:13
  you know,
• 37:14
  so those labels start happening.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I'd be,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'd be curious if that,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: if you see that,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: is that an emotional defense or is it a different mechanism?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: I totally know that the typology you're talking about.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: I loved those boys in my class.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: And my son talks about them and, you know, he's like,
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're kind of troublemakers, but they're really funny.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they're, oh, they're poor moms.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I, again, I would be like, that is a gift what your kid has.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't shut down that playful humor.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or reinforce that story about themselves, that that part of them is bad.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's just.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So wounding.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think there's like this...
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's hard to put words on,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: when I'm trying to illustrate this dynamic with my son,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 38:19
  but I don't know if this will land with any parent out there
• 38:22
  where it's like,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I am communicating this and that the opposite,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: it's like a brick wall.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's almost like a, you're something that's tight.
• 38:35
  Like that's not loosening,
• 38:38
  even though you're applying more pressure to it.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, I think is like this,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a sensory experience of the defense,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just when you're in that moment with your child and you're like,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm doing this and they're not budging.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not entering.
• 38:56
  And their reaction is almost to do more of what is annoying or
• 39:02
  that I'm telling them to stop.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I do want to just say maybe that's a clue.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: That you're up against a defense.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: That your child is defended against something.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's not landing.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like maybe back off that pressure.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to find a different angle to come at it with.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because applying more and more and more is maybe going to get,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: what is it like for every action?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's an equal.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're snowballing the other direction.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:35
  And if that defense is locked in,
• 39:37
  it's not going to work to just apply more.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to link this back to something in the last episode,
• 39:43
  another example that you were giving with your other son about
• 39:48
  the confusing
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: messages that are so counterintuitive.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I love your suggestion here to use that as a cue, right?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like when it feels really confusing,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: when what you're getting in response is just counterintuitive,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: take that as a cue,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: that there's a potential defense going on here,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: and what is being defended is vulnerability,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 40:19
  So how,
• 40:19
  yes,
• 40:20
  how can you turn down the volume,
• 40:23
  right,
• 40:23
  lower the stakes and make it feel safe?
• 40:27
  Because to come on strong,
• 40:29
  to go direct,
• 40:31
  right,
• 40:31
  to become the north wind as you've
• 40:35
  used as an example many times,
• 40:37
  is going to have the opposite effect of what you're going for.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to get the opposite of what you want.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:47
  So when you are getting the opposite of what you want,
• 40:50
  can you use that as a cue?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: That takes that consciousness, right?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: That ability to pause and...
• 40:59
  see things differently yep yeah what's actually happening here
• 41:04
  and how can i
• 41:08
  shift this you know this this dynamic that we are currently in
• 41:12
  you know can you
• 41:13
  take that on right instead of putting it on the kid with the
• 41:15
  north wind you know
• 41:17
  yeah um right yeah just take a step back yeah pause pause pause
• 41:21
  yeah yeah this is
• 41:24
  not working just and this works with grown-ups too i do want to
• 41:28
  say that right you
• 41:29
  know because we are talking to a lot of parents of of
• 41:32
  adolescent young adult
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: children absolutely yes
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: That all those defenses are still there, you know.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you find yourself in this dynamic with anyone,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: this can be helpful information if you're able to kind of check,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: it's happening.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is that thing they were talking about, you know.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do differently?
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, to shift this dynamic and help it to feel more productive.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 42:08
  and maybe it's not even having the answer to what that thing is
• 42:12
  to do differently
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: beyond just taking a breath.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: Just taking one step back.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm honed in here.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Me, I'm honed in.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Loosen up.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: Just take a step back.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let some air in.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: Breathe.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that in and of itself is all you need to do to shift forward.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: the energy in that moment and,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: and almost tell yourself like,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to come back to this tomorrow morning.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: I took this deescalation train.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Was it last year?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was verbal deescalation for like, you know, professionals.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I, I'm going to tell you the key takeaway I took from that.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I love it.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was just this man was like, I can see that you're upset.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about it tomorrow morning.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was just to just that's helped me so much.
• 43:05
  And I think it does align with a lot of this content where it's
• 43:08
  like,
• 43:10
  hmm,
• 43:10
  this isn't working.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: My approach is not working.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And even telling ourselves it's OK to come back to it later.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And probably when later comes, it's not going to seem as big.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to seem as urgent.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to seem as high stakes.
• 43:28
  It's just going to have a little less fuel on that fire where
• 43:32
  we can regain that
• 43:33
  mix in ourselves to approach it in a way that we are going to
• 43:39
  feel better about.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: And that's going to be probably the easiest.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Once you develop that consciousness to notice what's happening,
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: the easiest thing is probably to take a break and come back.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I'm at.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm how many years into the new felt material?
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've just gotten to that place, you know, to fill people with despair.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like the simplest of actions is very, it actually takes
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Patience with ourselves.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I just keep practicing, trying, just keep.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I've noticed too,
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: just recently situations where if,
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: when I give it a bit,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: something that initially feels threatening,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's,
• 44:26
  it's interesting how time turns down the volume on that threat
• 44:31
  where you're like,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: why was I so scared about that?
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, or why was that so upsetting?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I did want to also reinforce the play.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just want us to keep bringing that word to the table.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because it really is the medicine so often,
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: if you can shift to a more playful energy and turn down the volume.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's high stakes that are threatening.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is a different context because I've read this book.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was about procrastination, but this visual landed with me so much.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe it has an application here as well.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 45:16
  Sometimes we see,
• 45:17
  like,
• 45:17
  we take a situation where,
• 45:19
  like,
• 45:19
  I have to cross.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: I need to walk across a two-by-four board.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like someone like me who is a perfectionist,
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: if I see that board,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: it's like between two skyscrapers,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: If I fall, if I, you know, it's catastrophic.
• 45:40
  So it's hard to even take a step in the context of
• 45:43
  procrastination,
• 45:44
  right?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's like, put the board on the ground, put the board on the ground.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you take a step off of it,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: you're,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: you're on grass,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: or you're,
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to be okay.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's a soft landing, you know?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I know some things are urgent.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: I know real crises do exist.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:06
  I'm not downplaying that reality for many,
• 46:08
  many parents who are listeners of our podcast.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna, many of you have had
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: crises, you know, with your child perhaps.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: But what is our role in adding fuel to that?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And how can we step back to try to see that plank on the ground?
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's try to see the ground in this encounter.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to adopt, excuse me, that metaphor.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's perfect.
• 46:45
  And to bring that awareness of am I putting the board even
• 46:49
  higher,
• 46:49
  right?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_00: Am I the one putting the board on the skyscrapers?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 46:54
  and even something that does feel high stakes and urgent to us
• 46:58
  can benefit from us
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: lowering the board.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because then it's not as terrifying for us as well, right?
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because, yeah, the energy that we bring is going to affect the stakes.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: The sense of stakes for our child, too.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has a huge part of their perception of a situation, for sure.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of the emotional mark of it.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: The meaning placed on it.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: And whether they trust that we can support them through it.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I do want to make sure we get to that third mechanism of defense.
• 47:53
  And I'm so glad we gave time and attention to the perceptual
• 47:56
  because it's an
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: important insight to start to explore.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope folks can just...
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: take that piece you know I think the emotional we've dealt with a lot the
• 48:07
  perceptual I think is a new idea for how that's a potential
• 48:15
  defense kicking in
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: that's affecting our child's attention that's affecting their behavior
• 48:20
  In terms of why are they doing the exact thing more that I am
• 48:24
  so trying to drive in
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: that they shouldn't do.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to move to the third mechanism of defenses.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: That the brain can kick in.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the attachment.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Attachment defenses.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think that of the three...
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it's just my own personal journey around this with my own son.
• 48:52
  But this is one that I,
• 48:54
  I just feel so viscerally is having such a deeply profound
• 48:58
  impact.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: And one that we understand the least, understand the least.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: With the attachment defenses,
• 49:10
  and I think we're not going to at all begin to do justice today
• 49:14
  in this recording,
• 49:15
  but it's one that I think we're going to come back to again and
• 49:17
  again and again.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is that when the brain kicks in attachment defenses.
• 49:28
  essentially our instinct to be close,
• 49:33
  to pursue proximity,
• 49:35
  is pushed into reverse.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: To protect from wounding.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: It can also be, and this is kind of a
• 49:44
  parallel conversation that goes back to last episode for a
• 49:48
  hypersensitive child
• 49:49
  where the sensory filtering system is more wide open the
• 49:54
  attachment defenses the
• 49:57
  brain kicks in those defenses to protect from sensory overwhelm
• 50:00
  so it's not just
• 50:00
  wounding it can also be a sensory defense um but what is
• 50:06
  defended against the
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: is the instincts to pursue closeness and the instincts to depend.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: So everything we've talked about,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: from the beginning of the podcast,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: when we go through those six stages,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: when we go through the need for deep roots,
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: when this level of defense is kicked in,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: our child will go in the opposite direction.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Push us away.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: This is like,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: what we want to feel with our child is that,
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: when we're thinking about magnets,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: is that attraction,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 50:57
  But what you're talking about now,
• 50:58
  it's when you put those other,
• 51:01
  you know,
• 51:01
  ends of the magnets.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they're pushing, pushing away, pushing away.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know this,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: but I imagine for many of our listeners,
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: this is something you've experienced this early.
• 51:18
  With a child who is in defensive detachment or with your spouse
• 51:23
  when you're in a
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: fight,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: then all of a sudden just every,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: to the core of you,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: you are just closed off,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: cold,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: just rejecting of that other person.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you're pushed into defensive detachment,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: all of a sudden this person who you loved so dearly is like,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: you are just,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: you're at that opposite end of the world towards them.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: so if you,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: we may not have time today to like dig super deep into this,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
• 51:56
  if you can imagine how you felt in that fight with the spouse
• 51:59
  where you're just
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Pushing them away.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I am so mad.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want nothing to do with you.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 52:06
  I figure everyone who's in a long-term relationship has had to
• 52:10
  go through this at some point.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: Repelled by, right?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: You feel repelled by.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you said.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the magnet.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 52:23
  And where you saw this person through,
• 52:25
  you know,
• 52:25
  the lens of affection and,
• 52:27
  you know.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're drawn to be closer.
• 52:31
  All of a sudden it's like,
• 52:32
  how could I have a,
• 52:33
  you know,
• 52:34
  it's like the opposite kicks in.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what can happen in ugly divorces, you know.
• 52:39
  All of a sudden all of that love and intimacy is pushed into
• 52:45
  reverse,
• 52:46
  right?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes almost just this pure sense of repulsion or rejection.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: and anyways,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of all over the place,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: but I think what I'm trying to say is like,
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: if your child is pushed into,
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: it has those attachment defenses,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: here again is where we're like,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: holy cow,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: do we have to be bigger than that?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_01: Holy cow.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be able to have insight into what's going on.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: That is not willful for this child.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: That is not.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but could just be this.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: This defense that's that's locked in pushing us away.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: Shall be aligning their will to it.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there could be a consciousness layer on top at times.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: But in other moments,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:46
  it may be something that has been a response to wounding that
• 53:55
  is too much to bear.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: This child is defended against depending upon us,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: is defended against pursuing closeness with us.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: what comes to mind,
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: lots of things are coming to mind,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: but what I want to bring up and what you're saying right there about the
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: willfulness is...
• 54:17
  I think we give ourselves way too much credit when it comes to
• 54:20
  free will.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't know how many people have seen that image of,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: the iceberg relative to our psyche,
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like...
• 54:34
  So much of our behavior is driven from what is under the
• 54:38
  surface of the water,
• 54:40
  right?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: So much of it is unconscious.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this discussion about defenses,
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: is so important to understand how little of this we are conscious of.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: That most of us are moving through life with these defenses, right?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: These defensive mechanisms are determining our experience.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we have no clue.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we assume other people,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: we assume lots of things about other people,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:12
  based on what our interactions look like when really it's these
• 55:16
  defenses or these
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: other unconscious mechanisms that are driving the bus.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: and that really to regain free will and your agency,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: we've got to look at the defenses and heal them.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: Get unstuck, as you've said, right?
• 55:39
  Like the defenses serve a purpose,
• 55:41
  but we can get stuck in them and they become our personality.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: They become our operating system, you know, and we are clueless about it.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: We don't realize that that's what is happening.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: And they have such a huge impact on how we are experiencing life.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: They're everything, honestly.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: so understanding that they exist,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: being patient with them,
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: knowing that love and play are what heals them,
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: safety,
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 56:20
  that is what is going to soften our defenses and make life more
• 56:26
  available to us.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 56:33
  And just like you're saying,
• 56:35
  I want to reiterate,
• 56:37
  they are there for a reason.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: They are there to help us function in a wounding world.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: It is when they get stuck ironically.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is where the issues arise.
• 56:51
  present okay and absolutely for ourselves as adults perhaps our
• 56:58
  maybe this was
• 56:59
  something that we went through in our own developmental journey
• 57:02
  earlier in life and
• 57:03
  they got locked in you know but when we think about the child
• 57:09
  who is given you know
• 57:11
  a diagnosis or a child who is seen as having a learning issue
• 57:17
  or behavioral issue
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: We have to dig deeper.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: We have to,
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: and I think,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: we're probably not going to have a lot of time to go here today.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: But really,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: where I want to dig in next is understanding this relationship between
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: vulnerability and maturation.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what Neufeld says,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: essentially,
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: is,
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: all of these developmentals,
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: all,
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: so many different theoreticians and philosophers,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: psychologists,
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: over time,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: we're trying to understand what
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is the motor of maturation?
• 57:58
  Let's say we accept the developmental thesis that maturation is
• 58:04
  spontaneous and we
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: all have the potential for this to unfold.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_01: What's the spark of it?
• 58:13
  What's the thing that drives that motor,
• 58:17
  so to speak,
• 58:18
  is the metaphor sometimes.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so what are we moved by?
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: We're moved by emotion.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: moved by our,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: and so this is that spontaneous movement,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: not the blank slate,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: but sort of these inner springs.
• 58:43
  And so if we go back to that triangle of maturation where we
• 58:48
  looked at the adaptive
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: process,
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_01: the integrative process,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: and the emergent process,
• 58:57
  What then are the emotions or the feelings that are those
• 59:02
  pivotal feelings that
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: kind of catalyze or move each of those processes to unfold?
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it turns out,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: if we return back to that first mechanism,
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: defense mechanism,
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: the emotional mechanism,
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: it would be the vulnerable feelings of futility for the adaptive.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: the feelings of fulfillment for the emergent process,
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_01: and the feelings of dissonance for the integrative process.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: So all of this is to say when a child is chronically defended,
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: Unable to access, you know, what he calls the flight from vulnerability.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: Unable to let the guard down.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Unable to access these tender, vulnerable emotions.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Unable to be sad.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: Unable to have their tears.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: Unable to feel excitement or joy, you know, like, filled up.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: Emptiness,
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: filling up this idea of,
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: if our energy is,
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: what he says is,
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: we can't,
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: the brain can't both give energy to defense and growth at the same time.
• 1:00:26
  If the energy of the brain is going into defending,
• 1:00:31
  nothing is free for the growth.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: And when we look at that from the fulfillment aspect,
• 1:00:36
  we think about the emergent process and this feeling of joy or
• 1:00:39
  fulfillment.
• 1:00:41
  it takes me right to that concept of cascading care where if if
• 1:00:48
  our child is being
• 1:00:49
  filled up by that waterfall you know that that we're able to
• 1:00:52
  pour you know the the
• 1:00:54
  adults in their life their loved ones are able to pour this
• 1:00:57
  kind of generosity of
• 1:00:58
  warmth and attachment you know then they're going to be full
• 1:01:04
  you know they're going
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: to be able to like
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: have that energy to kind of like emerge out into the world with their own
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: self-expression,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: their own roles.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so...
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much more to discuss here,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: but I just want to give kind of that first glimpse at how this concept of
• 1:01:27
  vulnerability is so deeply intertwined with the maturation
• 1:01:33
  process itself and the
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: ability for those inner springs to flow.
• 1:01:41
  And when it comes to cascading care,
• 1:01:43
  that's got to come from a place of fullness in us.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so how is that being created?
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can't, things don't cascade from emptiness.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or we need to get to that place of emptiness through our tears, you know.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Futility and adaptation.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:09
  And in order,
• 1:02:10
  like that whole curve of resilience where it's like you go
• 1:02:14
  down.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_01: He talks about it as like a wavelength.
• 1:02:17
  Yeah.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like if it's a,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: you're up at the peak emotion and then,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: you have to experience the depth of despair,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: of sadness,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: those tears to then kind of free yourself up to come back up again.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: That rose, but also what...
• 1:02:37
  What we know or what we've established is that the block there
• 1:02:41
  is defendedness.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the conditions have to be right for the tears to flow.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so what are those conditions for you?
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:55
  How can you ensure those conditions are present for you so that
• 1:03:01
  you can...
• 1:03:05
  Soften and provide and cascade,
• 1:03:10
  yes,
• 1:03:11
  that care towards your loved ones,
• 1:03:14
  your children.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: And on that note,
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to say one other thing,
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: and this gets back to another,
• 1:03:24
  how when we start to wrap our minds and try to open our eyes to
• 1:03:29
  have this insight
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: around the defenses and around defendedness,
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: How we do have to work with some counterintuitive concepts.
• 1:03:39
  And the one that I just wrote down for today is that one of
• 1:03:43
  those is when we see a
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: child who is crying.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think our culture,
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: whether we're,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: however you want to define that,
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: as a culture,
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_01: we get to this place where,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: if someone's crying,
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_01: that means they're not okay.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_01: And what we have to,
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: kind of move into a different perspective where we say,
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: is my child having their tears?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank God.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Means they're doing okay.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:22
  And that it's a tearless child where we should be seeing a
• 1:04:26
  warning flight.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: That this child is not able to access those tender emotions.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that therefore that adaptive process is probably stopped.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:44
  And I guess there's all those ripple effects out to 30 and what
• 1:04:49
  we can expect of a
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_01: child is not adaptive.
• 1:04:53
  We can't expect a mature behavior,
• 1:04:58
  a mature disposition from a child who is stuck.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: We can end there.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've got one more thought I want to... Please.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just thinking,
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_00: like when we do see tears,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: thinking about our response to that,
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: not making it about...
• 1:05:33
  making it okay right because we think we need to do that you
• 1:05:36
  know this child is
• 1:05:38
  like we we tend to find sadness quite threatening you know so
• 1:05:42
  we go into the it's
• 1:05:43
  okay everything's okay and there's nothing to cry about or you
• 1:05:47
  know we feel really
• 1:05:48
  compelled to fix you know to stop the emotion and and have them
• 1:05:54
  be happy again you
• 1:05:56
  know and so i appreciate that like seeing that tears are a sign
• 1:06:00
  of maturity
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: That they are important.
• 1:06:07
  And can we respond differently and acknowledge the sadness,
• 1:06:10
  make the sadness okay.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're feeling really sad.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, this is so sad.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is not what you wanted, you know.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: My heart breaks for you.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: This hurts so much.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, saying things like that.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_00: Make those tears okay, right?
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: They reinforce the adaptive process.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: They create the conditions that make futility bearable.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:06:46
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 1:06:51
  And what Neufeld says,
• 1:06:52
  and maybe this is my last thought for today,
• 1:06:56
  it just came back to me.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: If we think about this for a moment,
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that wounds us the most?
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's that thing we've come up against that we cannot change.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_01: Futility.
• 1:07:15
  That emotion of futility is one of the most vulnerable emotions
• 1:07:21
  we've experienced.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're encountering such incredible wounding.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we could keep going.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, I've got thoughts in response to your thoughts.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_00: I just,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: I guess,
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: want to appreciate that,
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: how that is the most wounding,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_00: is not getting that thing that we desire so much.
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_00: And often that is somebody else behaving the way we want them to.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:02
  And how direct of an application that has to all of our
• 1:08:08
  listeners and what you all
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: are going through.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: In your own lives and your relationship to your children.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, this is why encountering that futility is so painful.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: So a difficult note to end on.
• 1:08:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I just want to say, I'm just going to go there.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just have a feeling I should.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I listened to this.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Two Way.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's Mark Halperin.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: He's a journalist.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_01: Anyways, he has this amazing platform on YouTube and all the channels.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: But his whole thing is like, let's bring the country together.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a Republican.
• 1:08:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a Democrat.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: He brings in everyday people on Zoom calls to ask questions.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: I love this platform.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I listened to the platform all last week.
• 1:09:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we're recording this on September 15th.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: So five days after the murder of Charlie Kirk.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this Mark Halperin is a very unbiased journalist.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: So he can just see clearly, you know, both sides.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he knew Charlie Kirk personally.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: He had interviewed him the day before he was killed.
• 1:09:27
  on his show and um he had to hold people's pain like the entire
• 1:09:34
  on his platform
• 1:09:35
  live callers many of whom were coming in in rage devastated and
• 1:09:41
  he kept on saying
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: yes and think about the other perspectives
• 1:09:49
  every single day for five days while he was going through this
• 1:09:53
  profound and he was
• 1:09:56
  feeling all the same emotion and to hold the both and he had to
• 1:10:00
  hold that maturity
• 1:10:02
  the entire week twice a day on his shows okay and so we got to
• 1:10:07
  friday and i
• 1:10:08
  listened to the the evening show and this woman called in and
• 1:10:11
  she was like i'm an
• 1:10:12
  attachment therapist unbelievable i mean i couldn't believe it
• 1:10:18
  and she said
• 1:10:19
  what we need most what we're lacking most what we've lost most
• 1:10:22
  in our culture is
• 1:10:23
  connection yes and what so many of your callers need is someone
• 1:10:29
  to just sit them
• 1:10:30
  with them and look them in the eye and say i see your pain feel
• 1:10:36
  you know just to
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: mirror to acknowledge and as she's talking this through what people need
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mark Halperin puts his head down and starts crying.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_01: this is an allotted,
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_01: journalist who's like covered all the Bushes,
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Clinton,
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_01: he's like a veteran political journalist.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And here he is having finally with this woman.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_01: You see your page.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_01: He is able to have his tears on air.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was just a profoundly moving moment.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And just a reminder to me that, like, that's what we all need.
• 1:11:27
  Yeah.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: A safe container for our grief.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes in relationship.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, everybody.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you take something of value from our conversation today.
• 1:11:52
  Be sure to subscribe to our Substack to have new episodes
• 1:11:55
  delivered to your inbox.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget that as a paid subscriber,
• 1:11:59
  you have access to more resources and can help us to shape the
• 1:12:02
  conversation.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_00: As always,
• 1:12:05
  we encourage you to share your feedback and takeaways in the
• 1:12:07
  comments and hope you
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_00: will join us for the next episode of Attachment Matters.