Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH SE1:E17 - outreach and mission in Christianity and Judaism
Transcript
- Nathan Eddy: I mean the irony is that the first Christians were all Jews. it's arguable whether Jesus Christ was a Christian. He's my Lord, he's my teacher, my savior, but it's slightly anachronistic to call him Christian 'cause the church came about after his time. Oliver Joseph: great proportion of the language is specifically God language about how do we create a relationship with God about how do we feel intimacy with God how do we feel service and responsiveness of God so I think the answer I'm not sure if I would self describe as somebody who loves God because I'm not sure I think that might be outside of the realms of Jewish language although we have a prayer every day that we say twice a day which says, that you should love God with all of your heart and all of your soul and all of your might. So love is definitely there. Nathan Eddy: I have the sort of reverse wrestle which is to really want Christians to understand that God is also a God who calls forth faithful obedience, faithful action, faithful living, right? I'm trying I'm searching for the right words 'cause Christians aren't always comfortable talking about ethics or life really, in a way that I admire about in the Jewish world. Oliver Joseph: Welcome to Really Jewish. If you're back for another listen, bruchim habaim. If you are joining us for the first time, it's really nice to have you here. We are Really Jewish. Often I am joined by my co-host Yair El Dan. This week I have a special guest who is Nathan Edde from the Council of Christians and Jews and also Chaplain from Mansfield College in Oxford. He is a good friend over lots of years, and I'm excited to bring him to the podcast. religious as a project where we talk about big topics facing the Jewish community. I think one of the big topics facing Jewish community at the moment is how we interact with other minority communities in Israel, and with living in a Christian country, which the UK is how we interact with other faith communities, particularly the Christian Church inside the UK. This is a conversation with Nathan Eddy who comes from the church, who is a church leader, who is a Christian and a little bit about how we talk to one another in respectful and kind ways and learn from his experiences and lessons both in interfaith work and as a Christian leader. So listen along inside really Jewish our inside a conversation about Jewish community and what is going on inside our Jewish community. I am so delighted to welcome to our really Jewish podcast, Nathan Eddy, a close friend and colleague from the Council of Christians and Jews. Somebody who I've, we've had a relationship now for more than, I would say, 10 years for the last 10 years. Something along those lines. Shared Friday night meals together, shared events together at the Council of Christians and Jews. It's been a real bountiful and wonderful relationship getting to know you, getting to know your family little bit. You are co-director for the Council of Christians and Jews. You are a chaplain at Mansfield College Oxford, a post that you took in just a year ago. And you're a Christian and somebody who has given me valuable insight on of the workers of the Christian community. Some of the story of what it means to be Christian in the UK and beyond in these crazy years that we're living. And thank you for being here on the podcast, Nathan. Nathan Eddy: Well, thanks for having me, Oliver. And yeah, my youngest fell asleep in your Shabbat table after a Shabbat meal, so I think that counts as being friends. So yeah, let's I'll take it. Thanks for having me. Oliver Joseph: Definitely. So it's only the fact that when you're a colleague with somebody there's also kind of a crossover and sometimes in UK culture friendship is presumptuous. So I just hold him back a tiny bit as is customary in our cultural setting. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and I guess in these times given that you're a person like me who holds multiple roles like Nathan Eddy: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: what feels important today in terms of your work. Nathan Eddy: Yeah, sure. well, now you introduced me exactly accurately. I'm a co-director at the Council of Christians and Jews, which does Jewish Christian dialogue in the UK and it was founded in nineteen forty two. and I have a Jewish co director colleague as well. I'm the Christian counterpart. And that's with half my time and with another half my time I'm chaplain at Mansfield College, Oxford, where I also have pastoral duties and I look out I care for other faiths as well. not just Christian students, but I also lead and organize worship at the chapel and we have a a wonderful choir. And we'll have to get you there as a fly in the wall if you're comfortable with that Oliver at some point. so but yeah, between those two roles I'm very busy. Oliver Joseph: to be busy, as we say in our tradition, thank God. listen, it's in the Christian tradition, which I came into quite close proximity with actually particularly in the States when I was studying. There's always a conversation of ministers being called to your tradition. So I guess maybe I'll use that language of like what called you was the calling for you to become a priest, for you to become a Minister of Religion and why do you do this work? Nathan Eddy: no, it's a great question. Yeah, we do use that language of calling. to emphasize that it's not just a career choice. nothing wrong. It is partly a career choice. There's nothing wrong of course with career choices, but it's a calling of God that that ministers, priests feel in their lives. They want to I wanted to Well, it's also something I've understood differently as the years have gone past, if I'm honest. But at the moment I would say it's a decision on my part to listen to God calling me to live in a different way, to not orient myself around around my career alone or making money. that's not to criticize anyone else really for that, but just to say, you know, you wouldn't go into ministry or church service. and not Jewish communal leadership either, I don't think. you wouldn't go into it for the money. There's you would go into it in my case 'cause I wanted to help others to listen, to bring people together, to to inspire people to live and and think differently, and to also in some sense to help people recognize the place and the call of God in their lives. it's interesting. I'm aware how different it is for well, for many anyway, who feel called if to use that term to the rabbinate. and yeah, anyway, so I'm fascinated by that as well. But f in my case it was genuinely to serve God, to serve the church, to give my life to that. in the midst of our society today I should probably add, which is what brings me to dialogue with you know, interfaith dialogue as well. but deepest level is yeah, to serve God and and serve the church. Oliver Joseph: Hmm, so interesting. So I just say as an offline side note, you're very welcome to ask me questions back if you're called to do that. But no, it's interesting because I think there is an aspect of calling in Jewish life, but we don't necessarily use that language. I think part of my calling to... Nathan Eddy: Okay. All right, good, good. Sure. Oliver Joseph: Judaism and Jewish life and Jewish communal life as a rabbi was simply to know more about the tradition and to understand Judaism. I think I've said on this podcast before that I kind of worked in youth work as a youth director for one of our youth movements and really just left that year of youth leadership with a very strong sense. had no idea what the tradition was about. So the attraction of really steeping myself inside Judaism and Jewish life was compelling, was profound and compelling. And I'm still there trying to work it out. So, yeah, yeah. Nathan Eddy: So let me ask you a question then, really quickly. with the comment I was alluding to was I've heard a rabbi tell me once that he it but this was his impression that Christians are called to be ministers if they love God in a nutshell. Whereas for Jews in his experience or maybe just for himself, it was because he was called to be rabbi because he loved Judaism. Right? So I wonder I wonder if that would Oliver Joseph: Hmm. Nathan Eddy: If that fits you. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, it's so interesting. Listen, something like... No, no, no, I... Nathan Eddy: not that you have to choose. Not that you have to choose, but I don't think a Christian wouldn't a Christian would use God language, right? yeah. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, no, I get the setup. get the setup. Listen, both of us working as well. I work with two Christian colleagues currently normally one Catholic and two Christian colleagues in my chaplaincy role at Canary Wharf. So I often thinking about these questions and I was thinking about this question preparation for this podcast, but we are not called to kind of explicitly use God language. as a fundamental precept of our relationship with the tradition. So I would definitely say I would like restate I came to Judaism because of my interest in Judaism and learning about Judaism, what Judaism is. But I do think internal to that and you know a lot of the material that I teach kind of week to week is for example Hasidic in nature which is specifically inside the Jewish spiritualist tradition where great proportion of the language is specifically God language about how do we create a relationship with God about how do we feel intimacy with God how do we feel service and responsiveness of God so I think the answer I'm not sure if I would self describe as somebody who loves God because I'm not sure I think that might be outside of the realms of Jewish language although we have a prayer every day that we say twice a day which says, that you should love God with all of your heart and all of your soul and all of your might. So love is definitely there. But we don't necessarily use that directive language of I am Jewish because I love God. It's a wild world. that may be in part because of that reactive aspect of what it is to be Jewish versus what it is to be Jewish today inside the Christian world. that's kind of part of the differential of our tradition that we've worked out. Nathan Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love the I heard someone told me once in Judaism you don't have to believe in God, but you have to obey him which I think is I think it's slightly tongue in cheek, obviously, but maybe you don't have to love God but you have to obey him. I yeah, I don't know. Oliver Joseph: No, I'm- No, you have to obey God and you might also have to obey God to believe in God because that's one of the precepts of the Ten Commandments to believe in God. yeah, mean, it's an interesting kind of circular logic. have to fulfill these 630 commandments, one of which is to believe in God, but you don't have to believe in God. interesting, an interesting, I guess one of the primary... Nathan Eddy: Right. Now that's fascinating, yeah. Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: the modern religions, I know Christianity is diverse as Judaism is also diverse, is that aspect of belief in God being the fundamental part, at least as I understand it, of what Christianity is, whereas Judaism just has a slightly different focus in that respect. And certainly the doing is much more significant than the believing as the starting blocks of Jewish life. So I spend much more time thinking about whether I've doven today, whether I've said prayers today and how I keep Shabbat, that I necessarily do spend time thinking about my relationship with God. And I do think about my relationship with God in some abstract way, but it's not the primary focus of my Jewish guilt, let's say. Nathan Eddy: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Oliver Joseph: The focus of my Jewish life is a lot more about the doing. Nathan Eddy: Yeah. there's a well no so it's a good question. I so there's a good book out by Shy Helt, I think I think it is, God is Love. it's I think that's the title of it. I'll look it up and confirm it. But anyway he's a Jewish rabbi educator in the US. and he was he opens he it's basically a book about how Oliver Joseph: What's the focus of your Christian life in that respect? Mmm. Okay. Nathan Eddy: the heart of Judaism is God's love. He and he wants to counter some of and it's written for a Jewish audience. he uses the anecdote of teaching in a Jewish context and and using that language of God's love and having these blank looks come back at him from his Jewish students who are like, That sounds like Christianity right and so you know, so he's wrestling with that a little bit. and I mention him 'cause I have the sort of reverse wrestle which is to really want Christians to understand that God is also a God who calls forth faithful obedience, faithful action, faithful living, right? I'm trying I'm searching for the right words 'cause Christians aren't always comfortable talking about ethics or life really, in a way that I admire about in the Jewish world. So I guess what does God call of me is certainly to live in a loving way, but I think I'm more comfortable with language that is not s quite so touchy feely, that's maybe more about maybe righteousness, would that although that's also quite churchy or sounds religious, maybe living in a way that's authentic or engaged with others. Yeah, maybe I'd go for language like that. oriented around others, for a greater good. yeah, dunno. I'm struggling 'cause I mean my background is in Hebrew Bible. So I'm not you know, I'm not a proper theologian or ethicist. And it's not something we've always been the best at as Christians is helping people talk about. what life is about, how to live, what Christian life is. Oliver Joseph: So it's an area of conversation that we've often jumped into. Listen, that we've often spoken about the aspect of the topic that we chose for today's session was about mission. And I think, interestingly, but interestingly, actually, it's an area that we have spoken about over time, but also perhaps skirted around, I don't know. One of the complexities of Jewish tradition and Jewish relationship with Christianity over the arc of 2000 years plus, of relationship between Jewish life and Christian life is the aspect of Christianity and outreach to various communities. Sometimes that outreach has been, you know, please come and join us. And sometimes that outreach has been active and aggressive and sometimes violent conversion of Jewish people over time, particularly I'm thinking about the Spanish Inquisition and forced conversions during the medieval period. That's not to lay that all at your door, but it's an interesting question for a Christian leader of today and certainly somebody who does your work in between Christian and Jewish communities about how you see, both how you perceive Christian missionary work as a unit and then also how you see Christian missionary unit, kind of outreach in relation to the Jewish community. Nathan Eddy: Mm. Yeah, no, I think when you propose that as a theme, yeah, I'm certainly up for putting that on the table and and I'm very up for hearing the pain that Christian evangelism has caused Jews. I think any Christian who's aware of the history of the church in Europe in particular is has a degree of shame. I think over the practices of what we have to say were otherwise faithful Christians who may not have even been aware of the pain that they were causing. and I think one caveat is I come from a particular part of the church which is the Reformed Christian church. And my tradition, which originated in the UK in England, always privileged what was called what's still called liberty of conscience and the freedom to believe and practice one's faith. That didn't mean they you know, they were perfect human beings, but that did was that was carried over into the New World. I'm from the States, I'm from I'm American and I grew up there and came to England twenty years ago. and so do some of those civil liberties were enshrined in the US Constitution and you know, George Washington welcom wrote an early letter to one of the earliest synagogues in the colonies in Rhode Island. and in this country it was under reformed, independent leaders who welcomed Jews back into England for the first time since the Middle Ages. That was in the sixteen forties, sixteen fifties. So there are things I should celebrate about my own tradition and its conception of Jews and Judaism, but as a part of the why and that's not to erase any of the shortcomings of which there are many and the wider Christian church as well, there's been so much harm done by a sense that Jews are need to embrace the gospel, right? And that causes me some pain. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, I, listen, I just for clarity's sake, because we like roasting leaders on really Jewish, but we're definitely not here to have you apologize or even make any kind of amends for all Christian leadership and Christians across the generations. But I just think, you know, as a thought experiment, it's the bit that I am interested in is how you match. Listen, in the Jewish imagination, we have Kirov. Nathan Eddy: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: which is also critiqued and criticized, which is people going out there of different denominations, but often from more Orthodox communities and grabbing Jews off the streets and teaching them and feeding them and bringing them in. And hopefully with the view that they become more from, sometimes much more from, much more religious and then live like significant and practicing Jewish lives. But. Nathan Eddy: Welcoming. Oliver Joseph: at least in the modern period, that's never ever been about converting people who aren't Jewish. And that comes with its own kind of problems to a degree or another. And some of those communities, they're doing that cure of work, the outreach work, totally uninterested in anybody converting. There might be actively opposed conversion. There are corners of our Jewish community that are opposed to conversion. But I'm safely say, safely as kind of a state that across generations, there's never been that kind of outreach. Whereas my understanding of Christianity, let's just even just say for 2026 is that there are still Christians out there who are quite actively interested in people converting to Christianity. So I just wonder if like, as a faith leader who's doing, you both working in the Christian Jewish sector and working as a chaplain in a prestigious college in the UK, like Nathan Eddy: Mm-hmm. Okay. Oliver Joseph: For you, how do you kind of map that aspect of Christian life which permits outreach and perhaps encourages outreach with also a reverence and respect for your Jewish friend who lives in North London and beyond? Less kind of roasting you for any Christian wrongs across the generations, but also just interested in how you map that in your own life. Nathan Eddy: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, sure. Well, I mean the irony is that the first Christians were all Jews. it's arguable whether Jesus Christ was a Christian. He's my Lord, he's my teacher, my savior, but it's slightly anachronistic to call him Christian 'cause the church came about after his time. However, he was Jewish. Paul, all of the apostles were also Jewish. However, within a generation of the Apostle Paul, it was impossible or maybe not a generation, maybe slightly longer, but it completely flipped and became impossible for a Jewish person to be Jewish as well as accept Jesus as Messiah of Israel. So i it suddenly became impossible to observe Torah, to eat kashruit, to wear certain clothing pray at certain times as other Jews were doing in the ancient world, as well as follow, as well as be Christian. so that's the irony is that there wasn't a space left within the Christian imagination for the Jew. And that's the tragedy as well, that wasn't able to be held together. i we can't go back to those times, but that it's important. to say that for historical context and just to remember why where Christianity arose. but I think more Christians need to be aware of the sensitivities in Judaism around Jewish identity and around becoming Christian as as meaning losing one's Jewish identity. So A.J. Heschel, the American rabbi, famously famously very very keen in many ways on dialogue, marched with Martin Luther King, spoke up for the rights of African Americans under Jim Crow. also said that if he were to he'd rather go into the gas chambers at Auschwitz rather than convert to Christianity. so strong was he against conversion. And Christians still need to hear that sentiment within the Jewish world. and those are the stakes as I perceive them amongst many. so there's in other words, there's a very particular relationship that many Christians don't quite understand who would in other ways quite rightly seek to share Christian faith and seek to grow the church. I guess your question specifically about me and how I navigate these things, I'm to be a chaplain is not to evangelize. I mean I would I guess I would hope that my example of of living a Christian life and engaging deeply with scripture and theology and hopefully that rubs off on students. but I'm not there to grow to evangelize in that way. And in fact I'm more there as a pastoral support. and in terms of C C J, maybe I would I guess I would hope that Jews would see me as a Christian and maybe think again about Christianity and realize it's not something to be afraid of. At least I don't think in the UK Jews need to be afraid of the mainstream church. in terms of I don't believe they would engage with people who wanted to convert them for or forcibly, you know, reject their views. I think more likely they'd be plied with tea and cake and find people who are really curious about being Jewish, which probably isn't much more comfortable. But yeah, so that's sort of that's a very long winded answer about how I navigate these things, Oliver. Oliver Joseph: No, I also notice and note that powerful conversation leading up to this was about reverence and respect for religious tradition. Listen, I think both within Judaism, there's like an open question about how much Jews are also respectful and reverent towards church and church groups. in the UK and Europe and specifically like a big whopping symbol of that in recent times which made lots of press in lots of countries is the desecration of one cross, one crucifixer with Jesus on it in Lebanon. I think, you know, important also to raise the way, you know, there's more than one way in which Judaism and Christianity are rubbing up against one another in these times, I think from a Jewish perspective. As a progressive Jewish person, it's very painful to see such things, a desecration of religious object. I kind of understand in the broad sense that, perhaps in the Israeli psyche, that when you desecrate a cross you are somehow, know, writing a wrong of yesteryear that it's been done to us so we do it back to them. But it's, you know, a terrible thing to see. particularly at times of war and ultimately in the largest part of this piece is it's a symbol of the way in which extremism is being... Nathan Eddy: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: let free in lots of parts of our society and particularly kind of rightist extremist politics inside Israel, which does Israel no favors and also in the minority communities in Israel also makes life scary and particularly difficult in these times. How do you see that image of cross desecration and how do you kind of relate to these moments of friction, particularly these times in 2026? Nathan Eddy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, thanks for ra raising that. I think that's brave, frankly, to bring to and and self critical to bring it up. So you're referring to the case. It did get international outrage. in it was in April this year there was an IDF soldier who swung a d destroyed a crucifix. a crucifix is a cross is just a cross, right? Crucifix has Christ on it. So it was a it was a Catholic family and in Lebanon had this crucifix in their garden. and so the whole really awful image video of the crucifix being hit with a sledgehammer. And to be fair, the IDF acknowledged it and Netanyahu himself apologized about it. so it's important to say that. And these things there are armies, you know, these things have happened on all sides in wars at all times. But I mention it because I think From a Christian point of view, from my point of view, I'm I hope that Jews and Christians can at least in the UK, at least, you know, in my work with my friends, my synagogues nearby and my friends like you, I want to work and do all I can to reach a situation of parity where there's an equality, where there's a mutuality, where there's you know, the UK is on paper a Christian nation or has Christian foundation. Certainly it has Christian roots which I celebrate. But at the end but we're also a multi faith, multi ethnic nation and you can practice whatever faith you have, you can practice here and I would fight tooth and nail for a synagogue for my Jewish friends there to feel safe, as well as for mosques nearby. so I would hope I would just really want a world in which there can be parody and there can then also be self criticism on the part of Jews, as was the case with that I IDF incident. Where there can be a sense that, well, historically there's been a huge imbalance of power with Christians and Jews. But this is also twenty twenty six and you know, there's support in the UK from the UK government for the state of Israel. There's there's support internationally still for that state, even though of obviously there's great stress being experienced in Israel and of course elsewhere in the Middle East, that there can be a moment of reflection about the balance of power. what it might be like for a Christian minority, whether it's in Lebanon or in Israel or in the West Bank. that there are that Christians are in a minority there. and that's I think a lot of Christians see that dynamic and I would and it's I appreciate why in the Jewish world why it's harder to speak of that or recognize it. Also why there's sometimes false news around this and sensitivities. But I do think it's important increasingly that we are able to speak of Christians within the Jewish world as well as Jews within a Christian world, as was the case for centuries and centuries. Hopefully we're in a world now where there can be more parody, mutuality, mutual respect. so yeah, that I'm glad you mentioned it, because I would hope listeners listening, Jewish listeners can can hear can hear that even if it's perhaps challenging. and you know, there's other resources out there as well that can help highlight the experience of some Christians, what we're hearing. in the Middle East, in the West Bank or in Israel. That's not to say it's a universally terrible situation, but there are instances that I think are not what I would hope. Absolutely is one way one way to put it. that's another conversation perhaps, but I just think it's important to have these brave conversations, right, as Jews and Christians. Oliver Joseph: It's really interesting. Listen, If Israel wants to continue to be a progressive country and to be part of the family of nations of specifically democratic nations, part of that has to be freedom of religion. And whilst, like you said, Netanyahu distanced himself from the moment the IDF investigated it, these symbols of moments of religious intolerance and religious violence, even in a war zone, you know, intolerable and difficult. think for many people in the Jewish community and in Israel to see. The flip of it is I think which is the bit which is never going to get as much press is like the place of Christians in the rest of the Middle East and how I'm hearing kind of my Israeli aunt and uncles in my virtual, my, what's the word, kind of the Israeli narrative voice in the back of my head which says, know, like, let's also bring into the conversation. the place of religious diversity in non democratic countries in the Middle East. I don't think it excuses any of the above. But the bit that's often missed in about Jerusalem and a conversation about the West Bank and Israel and it is some of that diversity that does exist and some of the kind of the stories which don't make the headlines which is about you know diversity in religious cities, mixed cities inside Israel and I don't think any of that makes up for the moments of extremism, moments of religious intolerance, the moments when crosses and mosques and synagogues do burn. Nathan Eddy: Mm-hmm. Oliver Joseph: and Christian worship sites. I don't really know where I'm going there but there's something just about the quiet moments of religious tolerance, whether it's in a UK context or in Israel context, which very rarely make news. And that's not any way to excuse this moment of desecration that you described. Nathan Eddy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, for sure. we have to continue to find ways of living out quiet tolerance. And the yeah, the word tolerance is tricky, because I want something more more proactive than just tolerating, obviously. but we have to still have a bar, have a minimum and tolerance is a good word for that. Oliver Joseph: So say, let's use that as a springboard to what your vision of your work is in this in this conversation that we're having. Nathan Eddy: Sure. W yeah, well I guess yeah. I would hope we need to have a minimum and minimum minimally there needs to be tolerance. Minimally Jews need to feel safe in synagogues. Muslims need to feel safe in mosques, as tragically wasn't the case in Edinburgh on Friday. In my work with the Jewish community, I'm very aware of Jewish fears, the events last October in Manchester, more recently in North London were horrific and I'm alarmed at the way things are seem to be progressing. but we still have to do more than tolerate each other. And for those of us living alongside each other in the mainstream, in addition to being aware of extremists, we also have to just be proactive around affirming you know, other faiths or at least, you know, not just tolerating but wishing happy holidays, whether it's Rosh Hashanah or whether it's you know, being aware of Passover, which often coincides with Holy Week, but is obviously a very different thing. We have to, as Christians, be aware of those differences and be able to note them, celebrate them, learn from them. so it's not just toleration. We have to make more of an effort. I'm speaking as a Christian especially to other Christians, but I would hope there would be a Jewish way of phrasing this and an obverse that Jews feel they could feel they could join in. We have to as Christians, especially as majority, we have to make the minority face feel welcome. and that's not just tolerance. It's gotta be again celebration is a bit that's a little twee. But we have to sort of be grateful for this diversity that we still have. We may not have it forever. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, no, it's interesting. The picture that keeps on dropping in my mind is you and me running learning sessions for one of our communities of the Hawara together for Yom Kippur must have been about maybe probably more than five years ago, six, seven years ago now. And I forget the topic we were talking about, but I just remember that feeling of real connection and solidarity. And I think actually what you, I feel like what you're describing is actually partly represented in this conversation about like, Nathan Eddy: That was great. Yeah. Mm. Oliver Joseph: rich and deep conversations between leaders of Christian Jewish faith. Like working out where we sit and where we stand together. The other part I wanted to mention is also about is about the anxiety like we want something more than tolerance and I think and I'm with you there. I think there's a historic anxiety from the Jewish community about engagement interaction with Christian faith partly because you might want to convert us. and actually the richness of the conversation when you kind of suspend that for a moment and you know also stand in pride and and certainty about you know about my own sense of faith. I don't have to be threatened by you if I know similar to what you said about Heschel like I know my own mind and I know my own faith I don't have to then be threatened by you but the richness of learning that comes when I'm actually able to engage you properly is really exciting because I get to kind of work out parts of Judaism which have been shaped by Christian life and have been shaped in opposition to some of the moves of the disciples of Jesus 2000 years ago and traditions that have come about because of aspects of Christian faith that Jewish faith didn't connect with or agree with. And that can be a really interesting spiritual process. It doesn't have to be a process of threat, but can be. Nathan Eddy: Yeah. Oliver Joseph: can lead to moments of real insight. And I've definitely learning and talking to you over the years and actually with other colleagues who I've met and learned from partly as a result of the work that CCJ has done and our friendship and relationship has led to profound moments for me. And having a real strong sense of what my Christian colleagues think has been a part of my ministry, my religious life and my religious leadership. So I'm grateful for that. Nathan Eddy: Well, nah you know, it you know, there's always a place for you in the pew on a Sunday, Oliver. You're you no, just kidding. No, I think that's what I would hope. That's what I would hope for my Jewish friends in general to feel confident. You know, I realize there's a lot to feel terrified of right now. and we're maybe this isn't it this isn't the moment maybe to have a you know a many flowers of dialogue blooming in a utopian way. But I want folks to feel confident and to feel they can talk about things that might feel terrifying, scary to talk about. Israel Palestine is one, but there's plenty of others. And we just I want us to feel more confident talking about things that we're afraid of. Oliver Joseph: Hmm. So thank you. And I will do this again, just in terms of ways to wrap up like, is there one tradition that you're thinking of one verse one teaching that you might leave us with and just encourage you to have a word or two to try and sum up our conversation today. Nathan Eddy: gosh. Well, how about you know, I thought about this. How about the Song of Songs? Can I have the Shir Shereem? Is that allowed? A whole like eight chapters. so so yeah. So I'm gonna go with that because it's first of all it's a book about mutual love and respect between a man and a woman, narrated mostly by the woman. Oliver Joseph: Yeah, you can do it. It's All Ajax's. Nathan Eddy: However, Jews and Christians have interpreted it in wildly creative ways, whether about as you as you'll be aware, you know, a love story between God and Israel or between God and the church or God and Jesus Christ on the Christian side. So I I guess I name that because it just shows the power of creativity, the power of Jews and Christians to I'm sure influence by each other as well, to interpret scripture in different ways, to see God in places where God isn't even mentioned, except for one little verse about the flame of Yah at the end of the song. So I'll go with the song of songs. Oliver Joseph: us one takeaway from this conversation as we close. Nathan Eddy: Sure. how about being brave? I appreciate your bravery and being honest. Oliver Joseph: Thanks. Listen, I love talking to you. I have over lots of years and thank you for coming on Really Jewish and sharing a little bit of your wisdom, your teaching, your work and we hope to have this conversation again sometime soon and wishing you only good. Nathan Eddy: thank you. I'm glad you are really Jewish, Oliver. And I'm delighted to be a guest here and delighted to wish all your listeners to be confident in their real Jewishness as well. So thanks for having me. Oliver Joseph: you Thank so much. That was a really fascinating conversation with Nathan. Listen, he's a close friend and a colleague and really what today's episode represent is like continuation of a conversation we've had over lots of years. I think the painful part is Christian community worldwide seeing parts of Israeli extremism and extremism against some of the minority faith communities in Israel, particularly represent that desecration of the cross in South Lebanon that he described in that happened in April. Listen, my aspirations for life in the UK and Europe is that communities continue to be respectful and reverent of one another, but specifically that we continue to have conversations. as Jewish community with other faith groups. And I think there are ways in which when we deepen those conversations, have real strong conversations with Muslim community, with Christian community and others that we get to learn about our own Judaism and about what it is to be really Jewish. And also to have friendship in those times in those communities strengthens us. I can say that, you know, since October 7th and over the last few years that my friendship with Nathan and with other Christian colleagues has helped me negotiate and balance these times and not just to kind of disappear into a abyss of desolation and real... sadness about how the world... not disappear in some kind of malaise and real sadness about how the world is. So that was my conversation with Nathan Eddy. Thank you everybody who's listened to Really Jewish this week. I hope you got something out of it. Thank you for your support. Thank you to Oy Vavoy for the musical intro and outro for this podcast. You can listen to Back to My Roots available on all streaming platforms. They're a newer single. We really depend on your support for this podcast. If you've been listening for a few weeks now and you'd like to become one of our regular Patreon supporters, please do that. Sign up and give us a pound a month. pounds, 10 pounds, 100 pounds a month, and support this work in significant ways. In smaller ways, please like this episode wherever you listen to your podcast, and share our videos on Instagram, tik tok, Facebook, and offer us comments. We'd really love to hear your feedback about this podcast, things that you push back against things you disagree with, and also things that you agree with and have enjoyed. Join us next week for another episode of Really Jewish with your Ira Eldan and Oliver Joseph.