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The Criminal Psychologist Who Flew Too Close to the Flame | Tim Watson Munro · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apploche Production.
0:14
Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm Your Host
0:16
Speaker 2: Adam Shand. Tim Watson Munroe is Australia's best known criminal psychologist.
0:22
Speaker 2: For nearly fifty years, Tim has decoded the minds and
0:26
Speaker 2: actions of criminals for the courts and the general public
0:29
Speaker 2: through the media. Known as the jail House Shrink, Tim
0:33
Speaker 2: Watson Munroe has spent decades inside Australia's darkest cells. Blessed
0:38
Speaker 2: with an inquiring and empathetic mind, Tim gained the trust
0:42
Speaker 2: of some of this country's most notorious crooks, working not
0:45
Speaker 2: just with criminals, but confronting the very nature of evil itself.
0:50
Speaker 2: His work has taken him to the edge of the abyss.
0:54
Speaker 2: He looked into the eyes of people who've committed the
0:56
Speaker 2: most heinous acts and has calmly, dispassionately explained the motivations
1:00
Speaker 2: behind them. He's built a huge following from his media work.
1:04
Speaker 2: At the age of seventy two, continues to grace our
1:07
Speaker 2: TV screens and our podcast playlists with his calm and
1:11
Speaker 2: considered points of view.
1:13
Speaker 3: Tim Watson Monroe continues to be one of Australia's most
1:16
Speaker 3: consulted experts on violent offenders with more than thirty thousand
1:20
Speaker 3: cases assisted over his.
1:21
Speaker 2: Career, but this insight does not come for free. In
1:25
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties, Tim went through his own dark night
1:28
Speaker 2: of the soul. As a young psychologist working in New
1:31
Speaker 2: South Wales prisons. Tim thought he could change the world,
1:34
Speaker 2: but he didn't realize how much that world was changing him.
1:38
Speaker 2: He experienced what he called in his memoir Dancing with Demons,
1:42
Speaker 2: a growing cynicism, a gradual rotting of the soul. As
1:46
Speaker 2: his accomplishments and fame grew, he experienced an escalating hubris.
1:52
Speaker 2: His exuberance to succeed paradoxically became his nemesis. In the nineties,
1:57
Speaker 2: he lost his way. His life and career no longer
2:00
Speaker 2: had any meaning or purpose. He covered that up with
2:03
Speaker 2: a raging cocaine habit that all but destroyed his public
2:07
Speaker 2: standing when he was caught up in the fall of
2:09
Speaker 2: defense lawyer turned coke importer Andrew Fraser Watson. Monroe says
2:14
Speaker 2: he lost all sense of judgment during a period of
2:17
Speaker 2: escalating cocaine news. Tim has rebuilt his career in profile,
2:22
Speaker 2: telling the story of his downfall with an unflinching honesty
2:25
Speaker 2: that offers so much to others in my career. Tim
2:29
Speaker 2: has been a generous and thoughtful collaborator, and I'm proud
2:32
Speaker 2: to call him a friend. Welcome to real crime, Tim.
2:36
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Adam. That's a very kind introduction.
2:39
Speaker 1: I hope we can live up to it. Yeah.
2:41
Speaker 2: I mean, I was struck when I was reading your
2:42
Speaker 2: memoir again, how honest it was. And I wonder whether
2:46
Speaker 2: at the times you just want to put that in
2:48
Speaker 2: the past, and people like me are always going to
2:50
Speaker 2: bring up the downfall. But I think it's important to
2:53
Speaker 2: understanding your overall journey. I guess there are times when
2:56
Speaker 2: you probably say, well, I'd rather just put that in
2:57
Speaker 2: the past and move forward in the latter chapters of
3:00
Speaker 2: your life and career.
3:01
Speaker 1: It's a good question. I'm in. My involvement with Coke
3:05
Speaker 1: went on for a couple of years. I received a
3:07
Speaker 1: good behavior bond for years and possess. It's twenty six
3:11
Speaker 1: years ago now and I was deregistered in June two thousand.
3:17
Speaker 1: I regained my practicing c tiicket in late twenty twenty three.
3:21
Speaker 1: I resumed practice in early two thousand and four, so
3:24
Speaker 1: that's twenty one years ago now, and I assiduously worked
3:28
Speaker 1: at restoring my reputation and my professional standing. It's been
3:33
Speaker 1: a long journey, but it's nice to be back. I
3:36
Speaker 1: think it's an important and relevant part of my career,
3:39
Speaker 1: and that's why over the ensuing years I've been happy
3:44
Speaker 1: to discuss it in an open and honest manner to
3:47
Speaker 1: perhaps explain what happened with me. And more importantly, I
3:51
Speaker 1: think I've heard so many times from people who have
3:54
Speaker 1: written to me saying, look, thanks for the book. Your
3:57
Speaker 1: story is inspirational. You know, it gives me some hope
4:00
Speaker 1: that I might be able to recover from my addiction
4:03
Speaker 1: and move forward my life. Now, if that helps people,
4:06
Speaker 1: I'm proud to be associated with.
4:08
Speaker 2: It, because Dancing with Demons is more than just a
4:10
Speaker 2: brutally honest memoir. It's a bit of self flagellation as well.
4:14
Speaker 2: You're looking at the mistakes that you made in the past.
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Speaker 2: But at the same time, I think the reader gets
4:20
Speaker 2: a sense of you can't look into this abyss without
4:24
Speaker 2: taking on some of the darkness that comes with it.
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Speaker 1: Well, I think it was an issue said when you
4:29
Speaker 1: look into the abyss, the abyss stairs back at year,
4:32
Speaker 1: and that certainly happened with me. There's no doubt that
4:36
Speaker 1: the nature of the work that I was doing at
4:38
Speaker 1: a very young age. I might add. My first job
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Speaker 1: at Paramounta Jail commenced on the fourteenth of August nineteen
4:46
Speaker 1: seventy eight, so I had just turned twenty five years.
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Speaker 1: It was the worst jarl in Australia by any one's account.
4:53
Speaker 1: It was a maximum security, multi recidivus prison and I
4:57
Speaker 1: applied for the job. I didn't think I had a
4:59
Speaker 1: snowflakes chance in l of getting it, but I hit
5:02
Speaker 1: it off with the chief psychologist, Irene Malentto, in her
5:06
Speaker 1: own way, a fascinating woman. She spoke twelve languages, highly intelligent.
5:11
Speaker 1: So there I was Paramount of Jail day one, twenty five,
5:15
Speaker 1: looking about eighteen, and I can still remember the first
5:19
Speaker 1: day I walked through the gates and I was overpowered
5:22
Speaker 1: with the smell of light soul. It's a very strong
5:25
Speaker 1: anti infection kind of thing, bid luck, debt a. It
5:29
Speaker 1: stronger the place wreaked of it, wolf wishlaws from Krim
5:33
Speaker 1: saying come to my cl baby, all this sort of stuff.
5:37
Speaker 1: And then meeting the prisoner governor, the Parry Duff, who
5:41
Speaker 1: became a good friend of mine with the passage of time.
5:44
Speaker 1: He was sitting in an office. There was the portrait
5:47
Speaker 1: of Queen Elizabeth hung at thirty degrees to the perpendicular,
5:51
Speaker 1: and old leather chairs, musty smells, and he said, welcome aboard, son.
5:58
Speaker 1: Always remember this. If you can be conned, you can
6:01
Speaker 1: be fucked. And I said, thanks a lot, mister Uff,
6:04
Speaker 1: and I walked out of his office. Then I went
6:07
Speaker 1: across to my office, and I had dressed in levis
6:11
Speaker 1: and T shirts because I thought I'd fit in better
6:14
Speaker 1: with the crims, you know, rather than a guy in
6:15
Speaker 1: a certain of briefcase. The prison officer on the gate
6:19
Speaker 1: to the administration block with my office was I said,
6:22
Speaker 1: prison psacha, you know. I was full of humorous and pride.
6:26
Speaker 1: And he looked at me and he said, he's not here,
6:28
Speaker 1: your little dog. You're early come back in half an hour.
6:31
Speaker 1: And then it dawned on me that the green T
6:34
Speaker 1: shirt I was wearing was exactly the same as the
6:37
Speaker 1: green T shirts that the prisoners wore. Now you've got
6:40
Speaker 1: to put this in the context of a twenty five
6:42
Speaker 1: year old who came from a fairly privileged, gentrified background.
6:46
Speaker 1: My father was a professor of Physics at Sydney University.
6:50
Speaker 1: My mother was an artist. I'd traveled the world when
6:53
Speaker 1: he was on sabbatical. Left. One of my babysitters when
6:56
Speaker 1: I was seven in Berkeley, California, was Einstein's granddaughter. Just
7:01
Speaker 1: to give you some idea of where I'd come from.
7:03
Speaker 1: When I applied for the job, people said, don't do
7:06
Speaker 1: it, it'll change you. They were right, but I haven't regretted
7:09
Speaker 1: anything beyond the drug use. Of course. I've had a
7:11
Speaker 1: fabulous career and I'm very grateful for it.
7:14
Speaker 2: You sought out to change the prison itself. You got
7:17
Speaker 2: involved in prisoner reform groups and hit the heavy heights
7:20
Speaker 2: of going on the Mike Walshow on Channel nine with
7:22
Speaker 2: hardened criminals and yourself, I mean talk about idealistic and futuristic.
7:28
Speaker 1: It was a great time for me and I had
7:30
Speaker 1: the good fortune to be employed in the wake of
7:34
Speaker 1: the Nagal Royal Commission that had developed as a consequence
7:38
Speaker 1: of a rit at Bathist Jail and it wascathing of
7:42
Speaker 1: the administration of prisons in New South Wales. They appointed
7:46
Speaker 1: a board of commissioners, including the late Professor Toney Vincent.
7:50
Speaker 1: He was a sociologist The whole focus then was reformation,
7:55
Speaker 1: opening up the jails and trying to develop programs. Now
8:00
Speaker 1: these days in prison throughout certainly New South Wales and Victoria,
8:03
Speaker 1: there's lots of available for prisoners, but they didn't exist then.
8:07
Speaker 1: So part of my charter was to do that, and
8:11
Speaker 1: Paramatta was the ideal facility for it because it was
8:15
Speaker 1: an end of the line jail. Everyone in Paramatta had
8:18
Speaker 1: no other options. They weren't going anywhere for a long time.
8:22
Speaker 1: I think the average sentence was ten to fifteen years.
8:24
Speaker 1: A lot of life was for murder, robbers and so on.
8:27
Speaker 1: So I came in just as they were establishing the
8:31
Speaker 1: so called Day in Jail program, which was based on
8:35
Speaker 1: the Scared Straight program in Rahway Jail, New Jersey in
8:40
Speaker 1: the States, but we tweaked it a bit and made
8:43
Speaker 1: it an insight learning program. So what happened was referrals.
8:47
Speaker 1: They were juvenile offenders who, if it were not for
8:51
Speaker 1: this program, would certainly be going to jail, and they
8:54
Speaker 1: were sent to prison for one day. They spent the
8:57
Speaker 1: morning as a prisoner wood cleaning locks, polishing floors, locked
9:01
Speaker 1: up in their cell for lunch. It was just gruel.
9:05
Speaker 1: It was atrocious and then in the afternoon they would
9:07
Speaker 1: be counseled by two to four prisoners who had been
9:12
Speaker 1: trained in basic counseling. I would sit in on those sessions.
9:16
Speaker 1: It was a highly successful program. It was investigated by
9:19
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Bureau of Crime, Statistics and Research
9:23
Speaker 1: and it was found on a two year follow up
9:26
Speaker 1: sixty percent of these people were not seen in court again.
9:29
Speaker 1: So arising from that, inevitably it attracted a lot of press,
9:33
Speaker 1: culminating in an invitation to appear with two of the
9:37
Speaker 1: prisoners on the Mark Walsh Shire. And for those who
9:40
Speaker 1: were old enough, Mark Walsh was the biggest rating show
9:43
Speaker 1: in Australia. Really it was Midday Shire. You had the
9:46
Speaker 1: blue rind set and all the rest of who had
9:48
Speaker 1: watched it. And because Tony Vincent was the commissioner, he
9:52
Speaker 1: gave permission for these two crooks to come with me
9:55
Speaker 1: under escort the prison officers and a big Ford plane.
9:59
Speaker 1: And that was a big deal for these bugs to
10:01
Speaker 1: appear on the Mark Walsh program. As it eventuated, Mike
10:05
Speaker 1: on the day was ill and the filly in was
10:08
Speaker 1: Jimmy Hannon.
10:09
Speaker 2: I don't know if you do, you know he washed
10:11
Speaker 2: up American Stary came out to a stadia.
10:13
Speaker 1: I think yeah, and I think he had commercials for
10:16
Speaker 1: toothpaste and that sort of stuff, and he hadn't been
10:18
Speaker 1: properly brief So we walked through the program. It was
10:23
Speaker 1: just when video stuff was coming out, so we had
10:25
Speaker 1: a video clip of the jail and the counseling and
10:28
Speaker 1: that went on national TV. And then to conclude, Jimmy
10:32
Speaker 1: went around us and he said, well, Ray, why are
10:35
Speaker 1: you in prison. He said, well, I murdered my wife
10:38
Speaker 1: and I'm really sorry about it and I'm doing life.
10:41
Speaker 1: There was another guy, Arthur Brown, and he said, well, Arthur,
10:45
Speaker 1: what brought you to jail? And he said, I did
10:48
Speaker 1: all these armed robberies and I'm doing twenty or a fourteen.
10:51
Speaker 1: And then he looked at me and I was dressed,
10:53
Speaker 1: you know, again in leve ours and I might have
10:55
Speaker 1: had a sports checking on. And he said, Tim what
10:58
Speaker 1: brought you into prison? Right? And I said, I'm the psychologist. Jimmy, well,
11:03
Speaker 1: you know, he went bright red and they cut to
11:06
Speaker 1: an ad break and that was that. But you know,
11:08
Speaker 1: they were healthy and funny times. In many ways, I.
11:12
Speaker 2: Think he needed to change or retire somewhat to be
11:14
Speaker 2: distinguished from the prisoner by the sounds of them.
11:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't think about that, and I liked to
11:19
Speaker 1: be I guess true to myself. I thought that he
11:23
Speaker 1: had been properly proved, No doubt Mike Walsh would have been.
11:26
Speaker 1: But it rated well, The program went very well. It
11:30
Speaker 1: eventually shut down, as did a number of the other programs.
11:33
Speaker 1: I said of a drug rehab program in Paramount of Jail,
11:37
Speaker 1: and I was involving what was called the Concert Committee,
11:42
Speaker 1: which was run by a blake by the name of
11:44
Speaker 1: George Crawfort, a very heavy crook. You may remember the
11:47
Speaker 1: name from two times in Sydney. But he had a
11:50
Speaker 1: lot of talent, and he had connections with the rock
11:53
Speaker 1: and roll industry, and long story short, he persuaded, with
11:57
Speaker 1: the sort of impromat of the government a number of
12:00
Speaker 1: top rating rock and roll bands in the seventies. Today
12:04
Speaker 1: nate a Sunday afternoon on four consecutive Sunday afternoons as
12:08
Speaker 1: a record. We had big bands there. And Cold Chisel
12:12
Speaker 1: wrote a song about their experience of Paramount a Jar
12:16
Speaker 1: standing on the outside looking in. It was one of
12:18
Speaker 1: them that's on the East album and what happened with
12:22
Speaker 1: that program. All the acts were recorded, they cut an
12:26
Speaker 1: album called Canned Rock, and all the proceeds the royalties
12:31
Speaker 1: were donated by the artists to the International Year of
12:34
Speaker 1: the Child. So all this was a big deal, you know.
12:38
Speaker 1: And for a while PARAMOUNTA was a bit like a
12:41
Speaker 1: universe he CAAs you know, you had crooks running around
12:43
Speaker 1: with clipboards and on the phone and you know, routing
12:47
Speaker 1: the telephone. But in the three years that I was there,
12:50
Speaker 1: I reckon I had ten years worth of experience. It
12:52
Speaker 1: was invailuable.
12:54
Speaker 2: Such a fragile thing, this public mood for reform, because
12:58
Speaker 2: it only took a botched prison escape and a riot
13:02
Speaker 2: for the dispensation to end. Think think, we've never really
13:05
Speaker 2: seen it come back. There was a flowering of that
13:07
Speaker 2: in different parts of the country. But these days there
13:10
Speaker 2: is a hard attitude to prisons and prisoners. They're simply
13:14
Speaker 2: there to be punished, keeping there as long as we
13:16
Speaker 2: possibly can. But of course the misnomer is because all
13:20
Speaker 2: these people eventually come out and then their's society's problems again.
13:24
Speaker 2: So you could see the value of treating them as
13:26
Speaker 2: human beings.
13:28
Speaker 1: Yes, and to demonstrate that notwithstanding their hinous crimes, and
13:32
Speaker 1: some of them were hinous crimes. They were individuals who
13:36
Speaker 1: in their own right had a lot of talent. The
13:38
Speaker 1: Botch prisoner escape you mentioned was a tunnel that was
13:41
Speaker 1: being dug under the walls of Paramount Agile and they
13:45
Speaker 1: were caught literally at one minute to midnight. They heard
13:49
Speaker 1: about it because one of the prisoners had wrung his
13:51
Speaker 1: mother and he had said, look, we need a few
13:55
Speaker 1: more places at the dinner table tomorrow night because I'll
13:57
Speaker 1: be there with some of them mates. Well she freaked out,
14:00
Speaker 1: rang the garvernor. They did a huge search of everywhere
14:04
Speaker 1: and there was this handler went through the catacombs of
14:06
Speaker 1: the old jail under the wall. They had keys to
14:10
Speaker 1: let people out and they are ready to go. If
14:12
Speaker 1: that had happened, I think inevitably it would have brought
14:14
Speaker 1: down the government because such was the rage. I think
14:18
Speaker 1: your comments right. You know, in many ways, we are
14:20
Speaker 1: all tired of crime, particularly in Melbourne at the moment.
14:24
Speaker 1: It's a very topical issue in terms of youth crime
14:27
Speaker 1: and all the rest of it, and I think there
14:29
Speaker 1: needs to be consequences for that. But that said, the
14:33
Speaker 1: spirit of reform and the recognition of the need for
14:36
Speaker 1: treatment of prisoners has prevailed and has grown, so I
14:40
Speaker 1: do a lot of work. Most of my work now
14:42
Speaker 1: is through New South Wales. I do a bit still
14:45
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, but I speak to prisoners and I say,
14:48
Speaker 1: what are you doing? There's all these drug and alcohol programs,
14:51
Speaker 1: anger management programs. When I started in the system, I
14:54
Speaker 1: think in New South Wales it was probably twenty psychologists statewide.
14:59
Speaker 1: I spoke to a friend of mine, doctor Nathan Brooks,
15:02
Speaker 1: who was over from New Zealand recently. He's the police
15:06
Speaker 1: psychologist there own, and he said he thought there was
15:08
Speaker 1: an excess of about two hundred psychologists now working in
15:11
Speaker 1: the system. So I think there is a recognition on
15:15
Speaker 1: your point, Adam, that if you make it too hard,
15:18
Speaker 1: if you don't give them treatment, if you don't address
15:21
Speaker 1: the underlying drivers of their addiction, ultimately most of them
15:25
Speaker 1: come out. You've got a bigger problem on your hands.
15:28
Speaker 2: To your point, the prisoner that gave away the game
15:30
Speaker 2: on that tunneling exercise and called his mother and said,
15:33
Speaker 2: you know, I'll be home for dinner was Michael Murphy,
15:35
Speaker 2: who left jail and became part of the Henus crew
15:38
Speaker 2: that murdered nurse Anita Cobby.
15:40
Speaker 1: That's quite right.
15:41
Speaker 2: And I met Murphy in Long Bay jail after that
15:45
Speaker 2: and spent a few hours with him, and he was
15:48
Speaker 2: someone who had very little insight into his offending. He
15:52
Speaker 2: was probably a true site, very low intelligence, and was
15:56
Speaker 2: led by the nose by other people in that gang.
16:00
Speaker 2: So there has to be a place where you can
16:02
Speaker 2: put those sort of people permanently with them a lot.
16:06
Speaker 2: But what surprised me when you were talking in your book,
16:08
Speaker 2: you're talking about there's very few that you would lock
16:11
Speaker 2: up in perpetuity. What percentage of the crooks that you
16:15
Speaker 2: met should be in jail forever.
16:18
Speaker 1: Well, Murphy's won and his brother. That was a horrendous crime,
16:23
Speaker 1: and I don't want to alarm your listeners, but it
16:26
Speaker 1: really was. It's still considered, I think, one of the
16:29
Speaker 1: worst crimes. I didn't really know Murphy. He was in
16:32
Speaker 1: Paramounta for a while, but he wasn't a standout crook,
16:36
Speaker 1: and his involvement in the tunnel came at really the
16:40
Speaker 1: eleventh hour where he said to these heavy crooks, blugs
16:44
Speaker 1: like Laughlin for example, who was a murderer, that if
16:48
Speaker 1: he was not involved, he'd blow the whistle on it.
16:51
Speaker 1: And so they brought him in at the last minute,
16:53
Speaker 1: and then he rang Mum and the rest is history,
16:55
Speaker 1: Thank goodness, would have in a terrible situation.
16:59
Speaker 2: Yes, you experienced over time a growing cynicism. And I
17:05
Speaker 2: find this personally interesting because my dad was a forensic
17:07
Speaker 2: psychiatrist and attended most of the jails that you worked in.
17:11
Speaker 2: I remember when we'd got on the weekends to our
17:13
Speaker 2: little farm up in the mountains and he'd had to
17:16
Speaker 2: go via Paramatta or Long Bay jail, and we'd sit
17:19
Speaker 2: in the car and he'd go in there for forms
17:20
Speaker 2: an hour, an hour and a half, and he would
17:22
Speaker 2: never talk about what he did. And I grew up
17:25
Speaker 2: with this sense of that's what Dad did behind the walls,
17:28
Speaker 2: and I always wondered, I guess now, particularly what impact
17:31
Speaker 2: that had on him, because he had a very strong facade.
17:35
Speaker 2: It was built of oak, and I think you had
17:37
Speaker 2: that as well, and I think over time you got
17:40
Speaker 2: in touch with that process in your life where you
17:44
Speaker 2: had to deal with this coarsening, if you like, of
17:47
Speaker 2: your moral health.
17:48
Speaker 1: Probably more my mental health rather than my moral health. Obviously,
17:53
Speaker 1: when I was using drugs, I crossed the rubicon, and
17:57
Speaker 1: I've done a million mere kulpers On that I regret it,
18:00
Speaker 1: but it's a long time ago, but it certainly impacted
18:03
Speaker 1: on my mental health. I didn't really recognize it though,
18:09
Speaker 1: until after the drug stuff. I started seeing a psychiatrist
18:12
Speaker 1: to treat my depression and we kind of unpeeled all
18:16
Speaker 1: of that and unpacked it, and I came to the
18:20
Speaker 1: insight that really the turning point for me in terms
18:23
Speaker 1: of all those issues that you've described. But the catalyst
18:26
Speaker 1: really was my involvement with the Hotle Street massacre. I
18:30
Speaker 1: assessed Julian Knight. I was thirty four years of age then,
18:34
Speaker 1: so still very young and probably too immature to have
18:39
Speaker 1: a case like that placed on my table, but I
18:42
Speaker 1: took it on with great relish.
18:45
Speaker 2: For those outside of Victoria or Australia, Julian Knight was
18:48
Speaker 2: the young man who decided to take weapons in Hoddle
18:51
Speaker 2: Street near the city and killed seven and wounded nineteen people.
18:55
Speaker 2: He's still in jail now and he's never to be released.
18:59
Speaker 2: It's a good example of what we're talking about here.
19:01
Speaker 2: But you saw him fresh.
19:02
Speaker 1: I think it was a week or two, Within a
19:04
Speaker 1: few weeks, I think it was. The offense occurred in
19:08
Speaker 1: August eighty seven, and i'd certainly seen him by the
19:11
Speaker 1: first week or so of September. I can't remember precisely,
19:15
Speaker 1: but I certainly saw him fresh and I went out
19:19
Speaker 1: to the old Pendridge Jail and he was in the
19:21
Speaker 1: hospital there. I didn't know what to expect, whether this
19:25
Speaker 1: guy was going to be a raging psychopathic lunatic or what.
19:28
Speaker 1: But he was incredibly respectful, humble, and I think at
19:32
Speaker 1: that stage in shock. But that case, I was young,
19:37
Speaker 1: I was exuberant. I became immersed in it and it
19:41
Speaker 1: ultimately had an effect on me, but I didn't recognize it,
19:44
Speaker 1: as I say, until years later when I faced mine
19:50
Speaker 1: a year at my professional and that year, if I
19:52
Speaker 1: could put it that way, and at that time, I
19:56
Speaker 1: was full of hubris you mentioned here. So I had
19:59
Speaker 1: all the big cases. I was young, I had a
20:02
Speaker 1: high profile. I was considered to be very sick success
20:05
Speaker 1: for I was the National Chairman of the Forensic College
20:09
Speaker 1: of the Australian Psychological Society. I was a visiting fellow
20:13
Speaker 1: at Melbourne University, where I'd sat on a board which
20:16
Speaker 1: had put together the first professional doctorate in Australia for
20:20
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists and then I lectured as a visiting fellow
20:24
Speaker 1: in the assessment of offenders. You know, so I just
20:27
Speaker 1: thought I was invincible and immaturity and cloud at judgment
20:32
Speaker 1: can lead to very bad decisions.
20:34
Speaker 2: But also the cumulative effect of the brutality violence, the
20:40
Speaker 2: images that stayed with you. I know, as you think
20:42
Speaker 2: about Julia Knight, I'm sure you can recall the crime
20:45
Speaker 2: scene pictures that you were shown of the victims.
20:49
Speaker 1: Well, that's true. I blocked them out and I've processed it.
20:53
Speaker 1: I mean, we're now talking what thirty eight years ago,
20:57
Speaker 1: But you can't unsee this stuff. You can't unhear it.
21:01
Speaker 1: I must say, though, in terms of my interactions with
21:04
Speaker 1: Julian Night, he has always been very respectful. I've never
21:07
Speaker 1: felt any sort of anger or antipathy from him. He's
21:12
Speaker 1: had a hard road. Some would say he deserves it.
21:14
Speaker 1: I note recently he's been transferred to Loden Prison, which
21:18
Speaker 1: is out of Castlemaine. It's a medium security jail that
21:22
Speaker 1: reflects some progress, but as you would be aware, I
21:25
Speaker 1: think it was an apthion government packed past, an act
21:28
Speaker 1: colloquially described as the Julian Night Act, which says that
21:32
Speaker 1: he can't be released until he's too old or considered
21:34
Speaker 1: too infirm to be a threat to the Australian community.
21:39
Speaker 1: So that's where it is with him.
21:41
Speaker 2: Do you recall in your book, I think you say
21:43
Speaker 2: that he is somebody that could be released.
21:47
Speaker 1: Well, yes, but with those caveats you see the issue
21:51
Speaker 1: with Julian. He's not had a lot of treatment along
21:54
Speaker 1: the way, and until this reason transferred to Loden, he
21:58
Speaker 1: has spent effectively thirty seven thirty eight years in maximum
22:02
Speaker 1: security jail. He's a highly intelligence and black I think
22:06
Speaker 1: the best job he's had in prison, as he told me,
22:09
Speaker 1: was sorting nuts and bolts. He was wanting more. Although
22:12
Speaker 1: I think he undertook a degree. He did a university degree.
22:15
Speaker 1: He was declared of vexatious litigant did he may be
22:18
Speaker 1: were by the Supreme Court of Victoria that he was
22:21
Speaker 1: really introducing and initiating actions to try and get a
22:25
Speaker 1: better deal in prison. But he became, in the eyes
22:29
Speaker 1: of many, a big pain in the ass.
22:31
Speaker 2: I would say Julian Knight tried to con you in
22:34
Speaker 2: your early discussions with him. He talked about being in
22:36
Speaker 2: a delusional state where he believed that there were these
22:39
Speaker 2: shadowy forces who were attacking, and that it was him
22:42
Speaker 2: and him alone that could take up arms, and that's
22:45
Speaker 2: what motivated him. And he thought the even the police
22:48
Speaker 2: helicopter was paratroopers coming in to get him, which was
22:51
Speaker 2: just a whole bunch of eron bullshit, wasn't it.
22:53
Speaker 1: Well, that was part of it. He didn't calm me
22:56
Speaker 1: because nobody believed him, right, but that was tried to well,
22:59
Speaker 1: he was putting it up as one possibility. I was
23:02
Speaker 1: retained with a forensics of car for a Stockton David Simon,
23:06
Speaker 1: a great mate who tragically died in When Did He Die?
23:10
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine Doctor Kenneth Byrne and the late
23:14
Speaker 1: doctor Alan Bartholomew, who was the Crown Psychiatrist also evaluated him.
23:20
Speaker 2: Famous Penrick Prison Chicatris as well.
23:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. Alan was an interesting guy who was
23:25
Speaker 1: well read and I think like your father who as
23:30
Speaker 1: I understand that your paternal uncle was a QC right
23:33
Speaker 1: and they were identical twins, obviously, both brilliant men. Urban
23:37
Speaker 1: myth all legend had it that Allan's brother was a
23:40
Speaker 1: professor of law, and I'm not sure if he was
23:43
Speaker 1: a twin, but Alan Bartholomew's understanding the law was second
23:48
Speaker 1: to none. It was extraordinary. But I digress. All of
23:52
Speaker 1: us came to the same opinion that Nike did not
23:54
Speaker 1: have a mental state defense available to him. He was
23:58
Speaker 1: not psychotic. The delusions which were described were not accepted
24:03
Speaker 1: as a mental state defense. He ultimately pleaded guilty. There
24:07
Speaker 1: was no trial, and he maintains it in coming to
24:12
Speaker 1: an arrangement with the Crown and the government, who was
24:15
Speaker 1: more or less told that he would get laugh with
24:17
Speaker 1: a minimum of twenty seven years. Well he's now been
24:20
Speaker 1: in thirty eight years, and you know he's shaking the
24:23
Speaker 1: tree of it trying to get out. But yeah, maybe
24:26
Speaker 1: he was trying to Connors. I'll concede that, but it
24:29
Speaker 1: wasn't successful.
24:31
Speaker 2: Now. But Tholing here from memory, had another contribution to
24:34
Speaker 2: this whole study where he had this theory about extra chromosomes,
24:39
Speaker 2: that he had this pilot program in G division. I
24:42
Speaker 2: think it was in Penridge, and everyoneted to get in
24:44
Speaker 2: there because you were labrats there and you were being
24:46
Speaker 2: studied and way better conditions, way better conditions. Do you
24:50
Speaker 2: think there's anything in that sort of stuff in genetics
24:53
Speaker 2: and chromosomes.
24:54
Speaker 1: Or well, I think he was looking at supermls. You know,
24:57
Speaker 1: the X DOUBLEY theory. Certainly there's been a lot of
25:01
Speaker 1: study around that. I think to answer you a question,
25:04
Speaker 1: is badness genetically determined or is it socially engineered? I
25:09
Speaker 1: think it's a bit of both. I think people can
25:11
Speaker 1: be born bad, and if they're raised in a bad
25:15
Speaker 1: environment where dad's violent and mum's using drugs and there's
25:18
Speaker 1: conflict and so on, that's their social learning, and that's
25:22
Speaker 1: the one that they carry forward into adult life. They've
25:26
Speaker 1: done interesting studies with identical twins adopted at birth and
25:30
Speaker 1: raised in separate household. One household's affluent, the other's not.
25:34
Speaker 1: If there's crime there, they both end up as crimps.
25:37
Speaker 1: So it's not so much about social learning with those individuals.
25:40
Speaker 1: I don't think we can say with any precision what
25:42
Speaker 1: percentage of what is what. But Hans I Sink, who
25:46
Speaker 1: was a fairly controversial figure back in the seventies, he
25:51
Speaker 1: reckoned that IQ was probably eighty percent genetically determined and
25:56
Speaker 1: twenty percent socially determined. He said, we don't choose our
26:00
Speaker 1: level of intelligence any more than we choose our eye
26:03
Speaker 1: colors or height. I guess. As a psychologist, I would
26:06
Speaker 1: like to think that with positive input, change can occur.
26:11
Speaker 1: But there's no doubt that social learning and environmental factors
26:15
Speaker 1: these days, in particular ice or methyl ampheta man it's
26:19
Speaker 1: changing personalities dramatically. You know, back in the seventies, a
26:23
Speaker 1: typical learning curve as you would steal cars in your teens,
26:27
Speaker 1: and you'd go to boys' homes, you go to jail,
26:30
Speaker 1: you would end up robbing banks and so on. These
26:33
Speaker 1: days where seeing murders occurring at the hands of seventeen
26:37
Speaker 1: year olds, home invasions, serious crime in late teenage years,
26:42
Speaker 1: which in many ways I think is attributable to us.
26:44
Speaker 1: It's an evil drug. So that's an example of how
26:48
Speaker 1: your behavior can be shaped by your environment to an extent.
26:52
Speaker 2: So as you're having these experiences Julian Knight and other
26:56
Speaker 2: violent criminals, you're being exposed to all these things. It's
26:59
Speaker 2: starting to effect this gradual rotting of the soul, as
27:03
Speaker 2: you've called it. But at the same time, your career
27:07
Speaker 2: is soaring, you are in demand from the media, you're
27:12
Speaker 2: getting all these cases. You're incredibly accomplished. Did you see
27:16
Speaker 2: any warning signs in what was going on.
27:18
Speaker 1: Oh look, I was in denial. I believed my own bullshit.
27:22
Speaker 1: I was like Icarus. You know, I can still remember
27:25
Speaker 1: the first line of cocaine I had. I hadn't trudged
27:28
Speaker 1: drugs until my forties. I might have had, you know,
27:32
Speaker 1: the odd tote of pot when I was at university
27:35
Speaker 1: in tutorials, you know, but nothing at all.
27:37
Speaker 2: In tutorials that was done back then.
27:40
Speaker 1: That's in the university, mate. Well maybe not tutorials, but
27:43
Speaker 1: tutorial parties to be more precise. But I never really
27:48
Speaker 1: was attracted to cannabis. I didn't use it, and I
27:51
Speaker 1: hadn't used any drugs really until my early forties, and
27:55
Speaker 1: I lost sight of it all. You know, That's what happened.
27:58
Speaker 1: And the thing about cocaine a drug I detest now
28:01
Speaker 1: as well. It affects your judgment. It has an impact
28:05
Speaker 1: on your prefrontal cortex. Your personality can change, you become
28:10
Speaker 1: more impulsive. Consequential thinking doesn't factor into your judgment at all.
28:16
Speaker 1: And I had all those things you were talking about,
28:19
Speaker 1: you know, the docs, intern all this sort of stuff,
28:22
Speaker 1: and so I certainly lost my moral compass then, and
28:26
Speaker 1: you know, I look back the hypocrisy of it, all
28:29
Speaker 1: going to court as this doy on of you know,
28:32
Speaker 1: this is how you run your life and secretly having
28:36
Speaker 1: a double life where I was using drugs at home
28:38
Speaker 1: and so on, I can understand why I was dealt
28:42
Speaker 1: with so harshly when it all erupted.
28:45
Speaker 2: See a lot of people use and abuse cocaine that've
28:48
Speaker 2: done it for many, many years. And yes we have
28:50
Speaker 2: the story where it causes a disaster, but a lot
28:53
Speaker 2: of people function on it. One thing I always call
28:56
Speaker 2: bullshit on in drug stories is the idea that it
28:58
Speaker 2: wasn't enjoyable at some point on the way through.
29:02
Speaker 1: You know, I'll call bullshit on that too. You know,
29:05
Speaker 1: that's why you keep using it, but you reach a
29:07
Speaker 1: point where the comdown is so harsh. That's what fuels
29:12
Speaker 1: the addiction. You know a lot of other things were
29:14
Speaker 1: going on in my life at that time. I was
29:16
Speaker 1: working very hard some weeks up to one hundred hours
29:20
Speaker 1: a week in demand traveling, and my first wife, Susan
29:25
Speaker 1: had been diagnosed with stage four bowl cancer. She was
29:28
Speaker 1: forty one, and we had two children who were just
29:32
Speaker 1: hitting adolescents. Then. It was not an easy time and
29:36
Speaker 1: so I was self medicating with that as well. Going
29:40
Speaker 1: to work, taking the kids to the hospice, all that
29:43
Speaker 1: sort of stuff, and that's when the cracks really started
29:45
Speaker 1: to appear in a big way.
29:47
Speaker 2: What I've observed with people who abused cocaine that I've
29:50
Speaker 2: known well is a certain I guess, loss of empathy
29:54
Speaker 2: and the idea that the universe is now retooled there
29:56
Speaker 2: at the center of it. Everything else revolves around them. Therefore,
29:59
Speaker 2: they don't have the bandwidth to deal with personal tragedy
30:03
Speaker 2: in people around them. That can cause a crating of
30:07
Speaker 2: their life when it all comes to roost.
30:10
Speaker 1: Well, certainly my life created I was using beyond that,
30:14
Speaker 1: you know, discussion of it's initially pleasurable. I was using
30:17
Speaker 1: to numb my feelings. So I think you're right, facing
30:20
Speaker 1: up to the inevitability of Sue's demise, my kids, it
30:25
Speaker 1: was all too much on top of the work. So
30:27
Speaker 1: I was numbing out my feelings. It was energizing me
30:31
Speaker 1: in some ways too.
30:32
Speaker 2: You know.
30:33
Speaker 1: I didn't use it work, but they were difficult times
30:37
Speaker 1: they worked.
30:37
Speaker 2: And at the same time, I mean, you're now knocking
30:39
Speaker 2: around with Andrew Fraser, the defense attorney who later became
30:44
Speaker 2: a cocaine importer, and I guess everyone has their influence,
30:47
Speaker 2: their cohort when they take drugs. He was yours.
30:50
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I met Andrew when neither of us
30:53
Speaker 1: used drugs. It was like a slow developing friendship. He
30:58
Speaker 1: was a big deal in the criminal law field. He
31:01
Speaker 1: started referring me work and a friendship developed out of that.
31:05
Speaker 1: But he too lost his way, I mean obviously in
31:09
Speaker 1: a massive way. I had no idea what he was
31:11
Speaker 1: up to until he was arrested and charged in terms
31:14
Speaker 1: of the importation. But I was caught up in the
31:18
Speaker 1: slipstream of all of that because we're good mates. Would
31:21
Speaker 1: speak on the phone all the time. That's how it unfolded.
31:25
Speaker 1: I might say that from the time of me being
31:28
Speaker 1: brought well, I actually went in to speak to the police,
31:30
Speaker 1: but from the time of that occurring, I had no
31:33
Speaker 1: further contact with him. I didn't speak with him ever again.
31:36
Speaker 1: He died I think one or two years ago from
31:39
Speaker 1: did multiple ma lamb, but we had no further contact.
31:43
Speaker 1: He betrayed you.
31:44
Speaker 2: As well, though, I think it's a I mean, you
31:46
Speaker 2: were caught up on phone taps and this is what
31:48
Speaker 2: always gets police excited when people are using code for drugs. Yeah,
31:53
Speaker 2: you were going to.
31:53
Speaker 1: The footy or you were aesthetic code when you look
31:56
Speaker 1: back on it, but anyway.
31:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that certainly dragged you into his world. And
32:00
Speaker 2: like I said, that loss of empathy with Andrew Fraser,
32:02
Speaker 2: and I'm very much tinged to Phraser by my mentor
32:07
Speaker 2: Brian the skull Murphy is also late and he never
32:09
Speaker 2: thought that Phraser was any good. He thought that he
32:11
Speaker 2: was using when he was representing Dennis Allen, and he
32:15
Speaker 2: was in and out of that home there, and he
32:17
Speaker 2: kept Allan out of jail while he continued to murder people.
32:21
Speaker 2: So there was some moral questions there.
32:23
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know him then, so I can't really
32:26
Speaker 1: comment upon it. But certainly when things blew up or
32:30
Speaker 1: imploded it he had a raging habit and I wasn't
32:34
Speaker 1: far behind him. And that's the insidious power, the evil
32:39
Speaker 1: power of this drug, because along the road you lose insight,
32:43
Speaker 1: you do lose empathy, you don't think about consequences. And
32:48
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone who uses coke at that level.
32:51
Speaker 1: It doesn't come out with big war wounds. You know,
32:54
Speaker 1: it's not as bad as us, but it's really on
32:57
Speaker 1: the same trajectory. I think. And the interesting thing Adam
33:00
Speaker 1: Naji would know is there's so many people in the
33:02
Speaker 1: professions using coke. Lawyers, accountants, some doctors. I don't know
33:09
Speaker 1: these people. I hear it anecdotally around the traps and
33:12
Speaker 1: from class. I say, oh, you know, I went to
33:15
Speaker 1: see this lawyer and blah blah blah, and they were
33:17
Speaker 1: a bit shocked. So and look you look at fluent.
33:20
Speaker 1: You know, they've got these guys running around in concrete
33:23
Speaker 1: birds and gas masks, walking through the sewer studying fluent.
33:27
Speaker 2: And what a job.
33:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a job. We couldn't pay me enough, I'm
33:30
Speaker 1: telling you, but they will tell you in Sydney and Melbourne.
33:34
Speaker 1: Cocaine ice it's just ubiquitous.
33:37
Speaker 2: Yeah. You've also touched on something in your book which
33:39
Speaker 2: I think is more fundamental. That you discovered, despite all
33:43
Speaker 2: your success, life was hollow. It lacked meaning and purpose.
33:48
Speaker 2: You'd created a distance between yourself and your most important assets,
33:53
Speaker 2: your children, and that I think was something that cocaine addressed.
33:59
Speaker 2: In fact, I remember a very famous barrister who became
34:02
Speaker 2: a judge in this state. I was with him on
34:04
Speaker 2: that when it had just taken some coke and I said,
34:06
Speaker 2: how does it feel, He said, I feel the way
34:08
Speaker 2: I feel I should feel.
34:10
Speaker 1: That's eloquent. You know, Well, look, the via chemistry, the
34:16
Speaker 1: neurochemistry coke is that you have a big release of dopoment,
34:19
Speaker 1: which is the good, feel good you transmitter chemical. And
34:23
Speaker 1: so people typically when they use initially get a great
34:27
Speaker 1: sense of euphoria and they're empowered by that feeling and
34:31
Speaker 1: that's what gets them back. And you've probably heard this
34:34
Speaker 1: over the years. You know, people years habitually, they're always
34:37
Speaker 1: chasing that first experience and they never quite get there.
34:42
Speaker 1: And that's the barrister probably nailed it with that comment.
34:45
Speaker 2: I think myself in a very much more minor way,
34:49
Speaker 2: I understand when you talk about the empathetic toll that
34:52
Speaker 2: it takes on you, and when you're trying to deal
34:54
Speaker 2: with criminals and their families and all the things that
34:56
Speaker 2: go on. And I've experienced this as well, to the
34:58
Speaker 2: point where I think to myself, how deep is the
35:01
Speaker 2: well how much can I give of myself to these
35:04
Speaker 2: people before I'm in deficit? Did you feel the same
35:08
Speaker 2: way that she turned yourself inside out?
35:10
Speaker 1: Well? I think I did. In retrospect, I don't anymore
35:13
Speaker 1: I've been having ongoing, not mandated, but professional supervision for
35:19
Speaker 1: years now because I recognize the nature of the work
35:23
Speaker 1: that I we do in this field takes a toll
35:27
Speaker 1: on you. And it's an interesting point. You know. Back then,
35:31
Speaker 1: people knew me well, thought I was kind of unraveling
35:34
Speaker 1: a bit, and they said, maybe you should get some help,
35:36
Speaker 1: maybe you should get some supervision. I said, well, who's
35:39
Speaker 1: going to supervise me? You know, I'm Tim Watson Monroe.
35:42
Speaker 1: All this sort of bullshit, and I didn't want to
35:45
Speaker 1: disclose its extent of my problem, so I didn't know
35:47
Speaker 1: where it would end up. But these days I see
35:51
Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist quite regularly. Not for treatment these days,
35:55
Speaker 1: more about exploring the depth and trauma associated with some
36:00
Speaker 1: of the cases that I'm still involved with. That said,
36:04
Speaker 1: you know, I made a decision some years away to
36:07
Speaker 1: get away from heavy crime, and I've sized known to
36:11
Speaker 1: doing what could loosely be described as immigration works. So
36:15
Speaker 1: it's just a different take on the same problem. In
36:17
Speaker 1: some ways, people in Australia who are not citizens of Australia,
36:22
Speaker 1: if they acquire a penalty in the court of nationally
36:27
Speaker 1: twelve months to serve or more even if you don't
36:30
Speaker 1: go to jail, they have a mandatory cancelation of their
36:33
Speaker 1: visa and they are then generally placed in immigration detention
36:38
Speaker 1: and there's an appeal process, and that's where I come in,
36:41
Speaker 1: where I'm asked by their lawyers to provide a risk
36:45
Speaker 1: assessment in terms of recidivism. I'm finding that much more
36:48
Speaker 1: rewarding in many ways. As we've discussed privately, Adam, I'm
36:53
Speaker 1: tired of gangsters and crooks and that grubby little scene,
36:58
Speaker 1: which by the way, is much worse now than when
37:01
Speaker 1: I was in the thick of it. Hardly a day
37:04
Speaker 1: goes by now where somebody's not murdered on the streets
37:06
Speaker 1: of Sydney and Melbourne. Never used to be quite like that.
37:09
Speaker 2: No, I think we're really desensitized to it. I mean
37:12
Speaker 2: during the Gangland War and you had I think more
37:15
Speaker 2: than a dozen of your clients got knocked off it
37:18
Speaker 2: doing that. But I think there was a sense of
37:20
Speaker 2: moral outrage. The public was up in arms. But now
37:22
Speaker 2: it's become the de rigueur. And I don't know whether
37:24
Speaker 2: it's a I'm going to say so this maybe it's
37:25
Speaker 2: slightly ethnically centered, because this Gangland War was more to
37:29
Speaker 2: do with Anglos, if you like, and the Italians and things.
37:33
Speaker 2: Now we've got all the Middle Eastern community represented. I
37:35
Speaker 2: think there's even less sympathy for them, and there's a
37:38
Speaker 2: kind of a racism that's being applied to them in
37:41
Speaker 2: a perverse way because their war is not getting the
37:44
Speaker 2: same sort of coverage as the other war.
37:46
Speaker 1: Well, their war is ubiquitous, you know, the Gangland War.
37:50
Speaker 1: I don't know twenty or thirty people were killed during
37:52
Speaker 1: that time, As you correctly point out, a number of
37:56
Speaker 1: mark class were murdered. But these murders, you know, where
38:01
Speaker 1: people are shot coming out of restaurants. It reminds me
38:03
Speaker 1: of Chicago. And the troubling thing about all that is
38:07
Speaker 1: that young kids are being recruited to do the hits.
38:10
Speaker 1: They have kill cars and kill kits. As you know,
38:13
Speaker 1: they'll steal a car as a getaway car, they'll have
38:16
Speaker 1: another get away car. There will be fuel to burn
38:19
Speaker 1: down those cars to destroy them, and they will go
38:23
Speaker 1: in for money and just shoot whoever they're commanded to
38:26
Speaker 1: do so. I think that represents a step up or
38:29
Speaker 1: a step down, however you want to put it. In
38:31
Speaker 1: terms of what we're talking about. Twenty or thirty years.
38:33
Speaker 2: Ago, right, And the devaluation of human life because these
38:37
Speaker 2: hitmen are getting paid small amounts. Yeah, I mean here
38:39
Speaker 2: in Melbourne it was fifty thousand dollars and above. Some
38:42
Speaker 2: silly people were paying a million dollars. If you pay
38:44
Speaker 2: some of a million dollars, then well you've got.
38:46
Speaker 1: Money to burn you do.
38:48
Speaker 2: So the devaluation of life is shocking. And I'm sure
38:52
Speaker 2: you have contact with the profession still that's involved in
38:54
Speaker 2: these cases. How are they going dealing with these the
38:59
Speaker 2: lawyers and the psychologists.
39:01
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's very challenging for them. I mean, lawyers,
39:05
Speaker 1: as you know, have a duty to represent their client
39:08
Speaker 1: to the best of their ability and to put their
39:11
Speaker 1: personal bars to one side. But inevitably, I know this
39:15
Speaker 1: from direct experience, you can't unsee or unhear what's gone on.
39:21
Speaker 1: In terms of psychologists who do these evaluations, I'm sure
39:25
Speaker 1: that it affects them too. I can't speak for them,
39:28
Speaker 1: but I would only suggest that if you are doing
39:30
Speaker 1: this sort of work, take a leaf out of my book,
39:33
Speaker 1: get proper supervision and have someone to talk to about it.
39:36
Speaker 2: Well, my father is a forensic psychiatrist as well, and
39:39
Speaker 2: his way was to have a chat to his friend
39:42
Speaker 2: next door. He was also a psychiatrist every couple of years,
39:46
Speaker 2: and that was it. And he didn't have any discernible problems.
39:49
Speaker 2: You'd like to drink, but it wasn't excessive, and I
39:51
Speaker 2: was hoping to find the answer in the files that
39:54
Speaker 2: he kept in locked cabinets. And he passed away. Now
39:58
Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen, I expect to get access, but my mother, protective,
40:02
Speaker 2: has always burnt all the files and ruined probably two
40:05
Speaker 2: or three books I could have written about me and
40:06
Speaker 2: my dad.
40:07
Speaker 1: You know, that's a great shame, because he certainly was
40:10
Speaker 1: well known and eminent. But it's just the way it
40:13
Speaker 1: is back then, and I was on the tail end
40:15
Speaker 1: of this. I think you were stoic at all costs, right,
40:19
Speaker 1: You didn't show your feelings. I never discussed work really
40:23
Speaker 1: with anyone, and my way of dealing with it was
40:25
Speaker 1: to go to lunch every Friday with the Larks of
40:28
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser and others in Melbourne, and they were big lunches.
40:32
Speaker 1: That was how we debrief. We wouldn't necessarily talk about cases,
40:35
Speaker 1: but what it did was it transported us away from
40:40
Speaker 1: really the horror of some of the cases we were
40:41
Speaker 1: dealing with.
40:43
Speaker 2: So now at this end of it, do you feel
40:45
Speaker 2: you've reconciled the past or is it always going to
40:48
Speaker 2: be with you? I mean, I think this said, this
40:50
Speaker 2: does come with the territory. You can't walk in there
40:52
Speaker 2: covered in teflon. It's going to affect you. Look, I've
40:55
Speaker 2: reconciled the past. In terms of my misconduct. I haven't
40:59
Speaker 2: touched drugs, oh goodness, twenty six years. I'm positive about
41:04
Speaker 2: the work that I do, and I enjoy what I do,
41:08
Speaker 2: but there's boundaries around it. I don't work nearly as hard,
41:12
Speaker 2: and I guess the counterpoint to all that is, I know,
41:15
Speaker 2: as you mentioned in your kind introduction, involved in other
41:18
Speaker 2: creative pursuits.
41:20
Speaker 1: So I've written a couple of books. I do a
41:22
Speaker 1: podcast with doctor Zanth Mallett, high profile criminologist, Associate Professor
41:29
Speaker 1: of criminology, and I think now Central Queenslane University.
41:33
Speaker 2: Motive and Method. You can find it on nine podcasts.
41:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we were picked up by nine podcasts which
41:38
Speaker 1: were thrilled them out. And I really enjoy the sort
41:41
Speaker 1: of intellectual stimulation of speaking with Xanth on a weekly
41:45
Speaker 1: basis about criminal matters. But at the end of the day, mate,
41:48
Speaker 1: I go home, na, I have a nice meal, I
41:51
Speaker 1: watch a bit of TV. A very quiet life, you
41:54
Speaker 1: might say.
41:55
Speaker 2: I like what you wrote at the end of your
41:58
Speaker 2: first memoir, Dancing with Demons, where you go through all
42:01
Speaker 2: this high fluting stuffing is incredibly important cases. But then
42:04
Speaker 2: you say, and at the end of all this life
42:07
Speaker 2: is brief and insignificant.
42:10
Speaker 1: That's quite right. And I think I also said leave
42:13
Speaker 1: your ego in a box. You know, we get so
42:15
Speaker 1: caught up in our hubris, and I think you need
42:19
Speaker 1: to be mindful of that. And certainly, at my age
42:22
Speaker 1: seventy two, life certainly is shorter than it was twenty
42:26
Speaker 1: thirty years ago. Tim.
42:28
Speaker 2: I've only ever known you in this post the second
42:31
Speaker 2: part of your career, basically, and I've never met someone
42:33
Speaker 2: who's more humble without hubris than you. So obviously these
42:37
Speaker 2: life lessons were incredibly impactful on you, because you rose very,
42:41
Speaker 2: very high and you fell very far.
42:44
Speaker 1: Well, it's a very kind comment, Thank you, Adam for that.
42:47
Speaker 1: Look before all the success and before the drugs, I
42:51
Speaker 1: was actually pretty humble block too, But you know, they
42:54
Speaker 1: were just crazy years, you know, cases like Alan Bond
42:58
Speaker 1: Australia's richest man at the time, all the Gangster's Alphonse Gangitana, Graham, Kinnerborrow.
43:04
Speaker 1: And I've said this already. I was young. I didn't
43:08
Speaker 1: have the wisdom that I have now, and I think
43:11
Speaker 1: the great takeaway for me is the acquisition of wisdom
43:15
Speaker 1: through experience. So I clearly regret the past in terms
43:19
Speaker 1: of those aspects of the past, But on the other hand,
43:22
Speaker 1: my positive spin on that is it's probably made me
43:24
Speaker 1: a better person.
43:26
Speaker 2: Tim, You're always a good bloke, and thank you for
43:27
Speaker 2: sharing your memories today.
43:29
Speaker 1: That's a great pleasure. Thank you Adam for having me
43:31
Speaker 1: on your podcast.
43:37
Speaker 2: That's Tim Watson Munroe. Tim I believe has transcended the
43:40
Speaker 2: world of crime and law. He's had an impact on
43:43
Speaker 2: our culture and he continues to do so through with
43:46
Speaker 2: very generous participation in media, helping people like me and
43:49
Speaker 2: we're making stupid comments and silly theories. He brings us
43:53
Speaker 2: back to earth. So I really do appreciate his presence
43:56
Speaker 2: in my life, and he also gives me an insight
43:58
Speaker 2: intom but things my dad never told me. So this
44:00
Speaker 2: podcast is extremely indulgent. You'll excuse me that in this case,
44:05
Speaker 2: tell me. If you have a crime that you'd like
44:07
Speaker 2: to report, please call crime Stoppers one and out a
44:09
Speaker 2: triple three, triple zero. If you don't like the cops,
44:11
Speaker 2: you can email me Adam Shanner, writer at gmail dot com.
44:14
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Make sure you subscribe, share, like
44:17
Speaker 2: all the things you do with podcasts these days. Thank
44:19
Speaker 2: you for listening.
44:29
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44:33
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