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Best of Brian Thomas - Christmas Eve · Brian Thomas

0:00
Speaker 1: Brian Thomas, so's to think about care see morning, you're
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Speaker 1: happy to welcome good Welcome to the program. A really
0:03
Speaker 1: good friend of my mom. So, her name's Jenny Zimmer,
0:06
Speaker 1: and she, like my mom, experienced the horror that is Alzheimer's.
0:11
Speaker 1: Her husband was diagnosed and therefore she ultimately became his caregiver.
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Speaker 1: She's written a book, The Man in the Mirror and
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Speaker 1: Other Strangers Looking at Alzheimer's Disease through the life and
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Speaker 1: experiences of a caregiver. Jenny, Welcome to the program. It's
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Speaker 1: a real pleasure having you on the show.
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Speaker 2: Thanks, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here.
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Speaker 1: I obviously I wish the subject matter was a better one.
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Speaker 1: But having lived through this and I just lost my
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Speaker 1: father in December, as you well know, in the eighth
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Speaker 1: finally succumbed to the evil that is Alzheimer's. It is
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Speaker 1: you know. I've said before, I'll say it again. I
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Speaker 1: even said it this morning talking about you coming on
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Speaker 1: the program. It's worse than cancer. With cancer, many times
0:46
Speaker 1: you at least have some measure of hope. There are
0:48
Speaker 1: treatments that are coming out cutting edge and otherwise longer
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Speaker 1: and longer lives after cancer diagnosis, when you get on
0:54
Speaker 1: Alzheimer's diagnosis, and I'm praying every day that they come
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Speaker 1: up with a cure. It's just it's a finite amount
1:02
Speaker 1: of time you're staring at. You can't look back and
1:05
Speaker 1: reflect on someone's life and og if they just didn't
1:08
Speaker 1: smoke three packs of cigarettes, I wouldn't be dealing with this.
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Speaker 1: This is the ultimate cosmic crap shoot. Who gets it
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Speaker 1: and who doesn't. That's one of the worst things about it, Jennifer,
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Speaker 1: It sure is.
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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what. Unfortunately, we all know there
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Speaker 2: is no good outcome when somebody has that diagnosis. There's
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Speaker 2: only one way out there not going to get better
1:29
Speaker 2: and come home. And I too am praying that someday
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Speaker 2: that has changed. But you know, it's just everybody can
1:39
Speaker 2: get it. And like I said in the book, Alzheimer's
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Speaker 2: is non discriminatory when it takes a victim, you know,
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Speaker 2: and I call them victims because they actually are victims
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Speaker 2: of a terrible disease that robs them of everything.
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Speaker 1: It does. What was so frustrating for me. Now you
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Speaker 1: remember Dad really well, and I always you know, we've
2:02
Speaker 1: been grieving since he was diagnosed it's you know, it
2:06
Speaker 1: was a long grief process. As you pointed out, once
2:09
Speaker 1: the diagnosis is there, it's going to happen. It's just
2:11
Speaker 1: sometime down the road. Could be ten years, could be three,
2:14
Speaker 1: but they're ultimately going to succumb to the disease. But
2:18
Speaker 1: knowing he was always the sharpest knife in the drawer,
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Speaker 1: you know, the quickest wit in the room, and to
2:24
Speaker 1: have and to be to communicate when he was still
2:27
Speaker 1: able to communicate on some level and struggling with you know,
2:31
Speaker 1: who is that person like my mom? For example? There
2:33
Speaker 1: were some days when he just thought she was some
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Speaker 1: nurse that was looming around and that you can't apply
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Speaker 1: logic and you can't apply reason to sort of try
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Speaker 1: to remind him. You think, well, all I need to
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Speaker 1: do is break out some of the wedding pictures and
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Speaker 1: show it to him. No, that doesn't.
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Speaker 2: Work, No, it doesn't. And actually it is hard because
2:55
Speaker 2: nobody knows what's going on in their mind. I ask
2:58
Speaker 2: about that once when I don't recall what the incident was,
3:02
Speaker 2: but I said to one of the professionals out at artists,
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Speaker 2: does he know what's going on? And she said, no,
3:10
Speaker 2: they only know what's in that minute, they just they're
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Speaker 2: only in that moment. But then I think back, and
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Speaker 2: I think nobody knows what they're experiencing. We don't know.
3:23
Speaker 2: We know that they're very fearful, that they feel threatened
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Speaker 2: by a lot of things. Simple things like just sitting
3:29
Speaker 2: down can be very frightening to an Alzheimer's victim because
3:34
Speaker 2: they fear they're falling. And a lot of people that
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Speaker 2: find themselves in a caregiver position don't understand or they
3:43
Speaker 2: maybe I guess they just don't know that that person
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Speaker 2: is very frightened and they're not withdrawing or they're not
3:52
Speaker 2: on purpose not remembering. It's just that they don't know,
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Speaker 2: and we don't know what's going on in their mind
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Speaker 2: at that So it's just such a terrible thing because
4:05
Speaker 2: you don't know how to deal with it, and you
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Speaker 2: just have to be patient and try to muddle through
4:11
Speaker 2: the things like not remembering photos and not remembering faces.
4:17
Speaker 2: I know your mother was a saint. I don't know
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Speaker 2: how she held up through all this. Your mother's an
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Speaker 2: awesome woman, by the way, I think the world of her,
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Speaker 2: and your dad was a great guy. He was fun
4:29
Speaker 2: and oh my gosh, we've had so many laughs, and
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Speaker 2: I just can't say too often how what a great
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Speaker 2: couple they were, you know, And it was such a shame.
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Speaker 2: And your mom came and talked to me when I
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Speaker 2: think you and your sister had first mentioned to her
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Speaker 2: you had some concerns about your dad about maybe not
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Speaker 2: knowing directions to someplace, or maybe some of his driving
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Speaker 2: habits and his judgment was getting a little poor. Yes,
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Speaker 2: And she told me and asked because at that point
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Speaker 2: my husband was already into the process. He was My
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Speaker 2: husband was diagnosed in twenty sixteen, and at the time
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Speaker 2: of his diagnosis, he was already more than halfway through
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Speaker 2: the middle stages, as best we could figure. So we
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Speaker 2: don't know, well, one thing with Alzheimer's, you don't know
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Speaker 2: exactly when it starts, because the symptoms could be just
5:29
Speaker 2: a lapse of memory, for you know, like you forgot
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Speaker 2: where you put your keys, you stuck the bread and
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Speaker 2: the refrigerator instead of the cabinet or whatever, so you
5:39
Speaker 2: don't think about those things, and all at once it's
5:42
Speaker 2: kind of full blown. So, you know, your mom and
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Speaker 2: I talked a lot about it, and thankfully, because I
5:50
Speaker 2: had gone through this first, I was able to give
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Speaker 2: her some things which I think helped her maybe navigate
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Speaker 2: through some of the hurdles that you have to go
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Speaker 2: through with taking care of someone with Alzheimer's.
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Speaker 1: But it is a difficult task, and you know that's
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Speaker 1: I guess that's the reason you wrote the book, is
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Speaker 1: to help people understand what is in front of them
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Speaker 1: when they do find out that there's been a diagnosis.
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Speaker 1: The we were so worried, and we were very very
6:17
Speaker 1: thankful that my mom was able to find a memory
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Speaker 1: care facila to put them in. You mentioned artists. We
6:22
Speaker 1: were really, quite honestly, more worried about my mom there
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Speaker 1: at that time than we were about my dad. We
6:27
Speaker 1: knew the writing was on the wall for Dad, but
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Speaker 1: Mom was just at the point of exhaustion. You could
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Speaker 1: see it in her face. This is I mean, you
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Speaker 1: know it, Jenny. It's a twenty four to seven reality
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Speaker 1: when your spouse of sixty years as Alzheimer's. You're up
6:42
Speaker 1: at all hours of the night, cleaning them up, changing
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Speaker 1: their clothes, showering them, helping them up and down. It's
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Speaker 1: just that the work never ends, no, And you.
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Speaker 2: Know that is why I wrote the book, Brian, because
6:55
Speaker 2: at the I don't know earlier on in that I
7:00
Speaker 2: was experiencing such intense feelings. A lot of days, you
7:04
Speaker 2: feel really inadequate to handle this all at once. You're
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Speaker 2: doing everything, and you don't feel competent to do some
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Speaker 2: of those things, and I think you feel lonely and
7:14
Speaker 2: you feel really alone. I made the comment of my
7:17
Speaker 2: book that I believe i'd put it in there where
7:20
Speaker 2: I felt like I was living alone sometimes and you
7:23
Speaker 2: feel frustrated and you can't help but get aggravated at
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Speaker 2: some of the things, but you can't show any of that.
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Speaker 2: So being a caregiver is extremely stressful. And one of
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Speaker 2: the things when I realized that I had all those
7:40
Speaker 2: raw feelings, I thought, other people are just coming into this,
7:45
Speaker 2: and they, like me, I did not know this is
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Speaker 2: what they could expect. And I thought, if I could
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Speaker 2: just tell people, you're going to feel all these things,
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Speaker 2: You're going to feel hurt and angry and lost and fearful,
8:00
Speaker 2: and it's normal to feel that way and you can't
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Speaker 2: help it, So don't feel don't feel guilty because you're
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Speaker 2: feeling these things. It doesn't change your love for the
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Speaker 2: person you're caring for. If it's a spouse or a
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Speaker 2: parent or someone close to you. It doesn't change that relationship.
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Speaker 2: It just means that you're overwhelmed. And I thought, if
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Speaker 2: I could just tell other people, you're going to feel
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Speaker 2: all these things and you don't.
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Speaker 3: You shouldn't feel.
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Speaker 2: Guilty about feeling it, and you need to deal with
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Speaker 2: those feelings in some way because it is such a stressful,
8:36
Speaker 2: debilitating thing for the caregiver. So your mom, Yeah, I
8:39
Speaker 2: was worried about your mom because she just had so
8:45
Speaker 2: much and she had she unfortunately was having to go
8:50
Speaker 2: over there three times a day to feed your dad,
8:54
Speaker 2: you know. But then on the other hand, you stop
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Speaker 2: and think, well, she loved wanted to take care of him,
9:02
Speaker 2: he loved her. Because one thing we have to remember
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Speaker 2: is that even though they're broken, they're still somewhere inside
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Speaker 2: of that person that we knew and loved and that
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Speaker 2: we have been with all those years. So that person
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Speaker 2: is still there. They just can't come out well.
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Speaker 1: And one of the things my mom was just so
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Speaker 1: good about and this is one of those do they
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Speaker 1: know what's going on? Are they aware? Moments? But she
9:31
Speaker 1: was always even if he was in communicado, and quite
9:33
Speaker 1: often many days we'd visit him, and he wouldn't say
9:35
Speaker 1: a word. His eyes were sort of half open or
9:38
Speaker 1: just laying there in the bed. She was always able
9:42
Speaker 1: to get him to say I love you when she
9:43
Speaker 1: would leave. I mean, I couldn't get it to get
9:45
Speaker 1: him to do it quite often my sister. But when
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Speaker 1: it came to my mom, she would just are you
9:49
Speaker 1: going to say I love you? You're going to tell
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Speaker 1: me you love me? And he would be able to
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Speaker 1: whisper it out, which sort of gives you that little
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Speaker 1: glimmer of hope that, well, maybe he is aware to
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Speaker 1: some degree.
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Speaker 2: They are, you know, a few days before my husband actually,
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Speaker 2: I think it might have even been the day his
10:07
Speaker 2: last day on earth. When I went in to see
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Speaker 2: him that afternoon at my regular time, I kissed him
10:13
Speaker 2: and he pursed his lips, and I said. The hospice
10:16
Speaker 2: nurse was in the room, and I said to her, Oh,
10:19
Speaker 2: he pursed his lips when I kissed him. She said, oh,
10:22
Speaker 2: he wants to kiss you back, He's just too weak
10:26
Speaker 2: and doesn't have the strength to do it. So I
10:29
Speaker 2: think they are in there. They do know, and they
10:32
Speaker 2: do respond to love. And sometimes if you know people
10:37
Speaker 2: that have Alzheimer's any other forms of dementia too, are
10:40
Speaker 2: often agitated, they're calm, and when that happened, the best
10:46
Speaker 2: thing you can do is just to sit with them.
10:48
Speaker 2: My husband loved to have his head massaged, and I
10:52
Speaker 2: would almost every day. I would massage his head for it,
10:56
Speaker 2: and he was it was so content. And if they're
10:59
Speaker 2: agitated or irritated and difficult, sometimes you can just put
11:05
Speaker 2: lotion on their legs or their arms, or just hold
11:08
Speaker 2: their hand or rub their head or something and they
11:12
Speaker 2: feel that love that you're conveying through that. So it's
11:16
Speaker 2: just you learn those things, I think by being with
11:21
Speaker 2: the people you love and caring for them, because it
11:24
Speaker 2: hurts to see that happening to them. It hurts still.
11:28
Speaker 2: My husband's been gone almost four years, and there's not
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Speaker 2: a day goes by that I don't miss him and
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Speaker 2: that I don't think of him, and I don't wish
11:37
Speaker 2: I could have done more for him.
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Speaker 1: Well, And as you point out, the disease is so insidious,
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Speaker 1: there's only so much anybody is capable of doing. And
11:45
Speaker 1: sometimes you know the caring for the Alzheimer's patient victim
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Speaker 1: as you like to refer to them, and I agree
11:50
Speaker 1: with you caring for that Alzheimer's victim. Sometimes the caregiver
11:54
Speaker 1: does not survive the life of the Alzheimer's victim. The
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Speaker 1: care and the stress and the emotion, and where's a
12:01
Speaker 1: person out so so much that they pass on before
12:05
Speaker 1: the Alzheimer's afflicted person.
12:08
Speaker 2: Yes, I mentioned that in the book, and I said
12:11
Speaker 2: the way I put it in the book because that
12:13
Speaker 2: number is pretty high. I said, over fifty percent of
12:18
Speaker 2: caregivers die before the person they're caring for. That number
12:21
Speaker 2: is actually more like sixty five percent. But I didn't
12:24
Speaker 2: want to say that because that's almost unbelievable. But you know,
12:29
Speaker 2: I've had I spoke to a group earlier this week.
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Speaker 2: It was a support group. And by the way, anybody
12:35
Speaker 2: that's dealing with somebody that has Alzheimer's that caregivers should
12:41
Speaker 2: get into a support group somewhere. It's so helpful just
12:44
Speaker 2: to be able to talk about your feelings and experiences
12:47
Speaker 2: with others who know what you're talking about, because you
12:51
Speaker 2: have to live it to really understand it. But I
12:55
Speaker 2: spoke to this group the other day and one of
12:58
Speaker 2: the questions that I had, and I hear this often,
13:01
Speaker 2: people say, how do you know when it's time to
13:04
Speaker 2: put that person into a facility, and I always tell them,
13:09
Speaker 2: you know, that's different for everybody, and all you can do.
13:13
Speaker 2: I think the biggest measurement for knowing when to do
13:16
Speaker 2: that is whether you are maxed out. When you get
13:21
Speaker 2: to the point where you are so totally physically, emotionally
13:26
Speaker 2: and just totally you're all used uff, you just can't
13:32
Speaker 2: go any further. There's a time. I think my breaking
13:36
Speaker 2: point was one night when we had a particular incident
13:39
Speaker 2: and it was like two or three in the morning,
13:42
Speaker 2: and I literally did not know what to do. There
13:46
Speaker 2: is no you can't call somebody at two or three
13:49
Speaker 2: in the morning and say help me, because there's nothing
13:51
Speaker 2: they can do. And I went into our kitchen and
13:55
Speaker 2: actually beat my fist on the counter and wailed. I
14:00
Speaker 2: just was that. That was my, I think my breaking moment,
14:04
Speaker 2: and I knew at that moment that I could not
14:07
Speaker 2: go any further, and I didn't want to put him
14:10
Speaker 2: in a facility, but I knew that I couldn't take
14:14
Speaker 2: care of him. And you need to be able to
14:16
Speaker 2: feel that you can keep that person safe and that
14:20
Speaker 2: you can just navigate through the day with them and
14:23
Speaker 2: one person can't do that alone. You need more people
14:26
Speaker 2: like the facility can offer. So Artists was wonderful everyone there.
14:34
Speaker 2: And I volunteer at Artists on Friday afternoons most weeks,
14:38
Speaker 2: and so many of those people just want somebody to
14:42
Speaker 2: sit with them. I sat two weeks ago. I sat there.
14:46
Speaker 2: One lady took my hand and she said, oh, your
14:50
Speaker 2: hand is cold, and I said yes, and she wrapped
14:53
Speaker 2: my hand in the corner of her robe, which she
14:56
Speaker 2: was wearing at the time. And the lady on the
14:58
Speaker 2: other side and me took my the hand. So I
15:01
Speaker 2: sat for a hour between these two little ladies. Both
15:05
Speaker 2: are pretty far along with their Alzheimer's. One doesn't even
15:09
Speaker 2: speak much English, so you can't talk with her a
15:11
Speaker 2: whole lot. But I sat there, one with my hand
15:15
Speaker 2: wrapped in her robe, patting my hand occasionally, the other
15:18
Speaker 2: one just holding my hand and stroking it. And they
15:21
Speaker 2: were content, and I was content.
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Speaker 1: That's beautiful.
15:24
Speaker 2: You just you give them what they need, and sometimes
15:28
Speaker 2: it's what you need to amen to that.
15:30
Speaker 1: Jenny Zimmer, the name of the book, The Man in
15:32
Speaker 1: the Mirror and other strangers looking at Alzheimer's disease through
15:34
Speaker 1: the life and experiences of a caregiver. Fantastic information here
15:38
Speaker 1: for anybody who's struggling with this or who is getting
15:40
Speaker 1: ready to deal with it, but also for folks that
15:42
Speaker 1: are dealing with other forms of disease and they are
15:45
Speaker 1: the caregiver in their lives. Get a copy of the book.
15:47
Speaker 1: It'll be a fifty five care sea dot com on
15:49
Speaker 1: my blog page. Joe put it off there. Easily get
15:51
Speaker 1: a copy of it and get to Amazon and get
15:53
Speaker 1: a copy as well, if you don't want to wait. Jenny,
15:55
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure. Thank you for being such a dear
15:57
Speaker 1: friend to my mom and helping her through these very
15:59
Speaker 1: difficult times. Donald Barclay, I've got a book to talk about.
16:02
Speaker 1: By way of background, he's a deputy University librarian at
16:05
Speaker 1: the University of California Universities, author of numerous articles and
16:08
Speaker 1: books over the course of his career on topics ranging
16:10
Speaker 1: from the literature of the American West to children's literature
16:13
Speaker 1: and library and information science. Most recent book, Fake News,
16:16
Speaker 1: Propaganda and Plain Old Lives, How to Find Trustworthy Information
16:19
Speaker 1: in the Digital Age, talked about that previously. Got a
16:22
Speaker 1: new book to talk about disinformation, the nature of facts
16:25
Speaker 1: and lies in the post truth era. Donald Barkley, it's
16:29
Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you back in the fifty five
16:30
Speaker 1: KREC Morning Show. Welcome sir, and Happy President's Day.
16:33
Speaker 4: Thank you, Happy President City to thank you for having me.
16:35
Speaker 1: Brian, Well, you dressed it previously. In how to find
16:38
Speaker 1: trustworthy information the Digital Age, I'm not so sure that
16:41
Speaker 1: most American people are willing to engage in the expenditure
16:45
Speaker 1: of time and critical thinking to find out inferret information.
16:49
Speaker 1: So they tend to listen to the ten second SoundBite
16:51
Speaker 1: they get maybe from the local or evening news, if
16:54
Speaker 1: they even take time to follow the look or evening news.
16:57
Speaker 1: I'm convinced that the vast majority of Americans get their
16:59
Speaker 1: power politics through memes these days. Is this obviously is
17:03
Speaker 1: a as a legitimate trend going on, isn't it?
17:06
Speaker 4: Yeah?
17:06
Speaker 5: I think it is, and you know it's it is
17:09
Speaker 5: it's hard to to take the time to really get
17:14
Speaker 5: at the truth of something, because you know, the more
17:16
Speaker 5: you you really think about the nature of what is truth?
17:20
Speaker 5: What is factual? Who should I trust? What influence does
17:24
Speaker 5: at work? You know, money, of course is a huge influence.
17:28
Speaker 5: Why do you know somebody has a has a money
17:31
Speaker 5: interest in telling me something.
17:35
Speaker 4: It's it becomes really difficult.
17:36
Speaker 5: And one of the points I've made in my writing
17:40
Speaker 5: is you have to, I think, think about what what
17:44
Speaker 5: do you really use information for?
17:46
Speaker 4: What do we really use it for in the most
17:48
Speaker 4: important way?
17:49
Speaker 5: And I think the most important thing we use information
17:51
Speaker 5: for when we really think about it, is decision making,
17:54
Speaker 5: and whether it's a private decision like should I invest
17:58
Speaker 5: my money in crypto or more of a public decision,
18:02
Speaker 5: you know, what should we do about firearms or abortion
18:07
Speaker 5: or you know, name your topic. We make decisions based
18:11
Speaker 5: we should make decisions based on information. And I think
18:13
Speaker 5: the thing we have to as people only have so
18:16
Speaker 5: much time, is to think about what is how important
18:22
Speaker 5: is this decision? And obviously the more important a decision is,
18:27
Speaker 5: and the more potentially devastating the content that the consequences are,
18:32
Speaker 5: then those are the things we really need to spend
18:35
Speaker 5: more time on.
18:36
Speaker 4: The example I've given in the.
18:38
Speaker 5: Past is if somebody offered you a piece of a
18:40
Speaker 5: candy bar you've never tried before. I use example of
18:44
Speaker 5: the Idaho spud, which is a candy bar that's mostly
18:46
Speaker 5: we only found an Idaho and probably don't see it
18:48
Speaker 5: in Cincinnati very much. If I came up and offered
18:51
Speaker 5: you an Idaho spud bar and it's in the wrapper
18:54
Speaker 5: and everything, and maybe you know me, but you know,
18:56
Speaker 5: maybe I'm not your best friend anything, but you kind
18:58
Speaker 5: of know I'm an okay guy, you'd probably be okay
19:00
Speaker 5: just eating it without really researching it, right, I mean,
19:03
Speaker 5: it's not a huge risk.
19:04
Speaker 4: Either you like it or you don't.
19:06
Speaker 5: But if I came up and said, I found these
19:07
Speaker 5: mushrooms today, why don't you try them for dinner, that's
19:10
Speaker 5: something you'd want to research a little more, right, Yeah,
19:13
Speaker 5: and make sure that you're not eating something that's going
19:15
Speaker 5: to kill you. And I think those that's the kind
19:17
Speaker 5: of analysis we have to put into what's what's the
19:20
Speaker 5: one of the potential consequences of this decision, whether it's
19:23
Speaker 5: a personal consequence, you know, in California, should I put
19:26
Speaker 5: solar on my house or or not?
19:28
Speaker 1: Well, hasn't the this this internet agent which we live
19:32
Speaker 1: made that more difficult? And I think of all the
19:34
Speaker 1: pluses and minuses I and I think probably the powers
19:37
Speaker 1: that be when the Internet first came online, were you know,
19:39
Speaker 1: this massive information. Oh my god, the general public is
19:42
Speaker 1: going to know exactly what bills are. They'll be able
19:45
Speaker 1: to read the language of any bill that we propose.
19:48
Speaker 1: They don't have to go to the Library of Congress
19:49
Speaker 1: or find some you know, sort of written legislative outlet service,
19:53
Speaker 1: and you can go across the board on any subject
19:54
Speaker 1: matter and going back to your mushroom thing. I mean,
19:57
Speaker 1: there's so much information online, I presume about mushrooms and
19:59
Speaker 1: whether it poison or not. We can be confused on that.
20:01
Speaker 1: It's like information overload. So it's the problem. It's better
20:07
Speaker 1: because we've got access to the key information, but it's
20:09
Speaker 1: worse because we have access to not only the key information,
20:12
Speaker 1: but every you know, sphincter in the world. We all
20:15
Speaker 1: know what they're everybody's.
20:16
Speaker 5: Got one, right right, Yes, it's very In my book
20:21
Speaker 5: this information in one of the chapters, I talk about
20:25
Speaker 5: how in the early days of the Internet there was
20:26
Speaker 5: this incredible optimism and I was actually part of this.
20:30
Speaker 5: I'm not an engineer anything, but I was there very
20:33
Speaker 5: early on using the Internet before there was a web,
20:36
Speaker 5: and the the optimism about what it was going to
20:40
Speaker 5: be because there wouldn't be gatekeepers anymore, there wouldn't be
20:43
Speaker 5: people filtering our information, whether it's the library who only
20:48
Speaker 5: buy certain books, or Walter Curnkaive or or whatever. You know,
20:52
Speaker 5: we're going to be able to get all this information.
20:54
Speaker 5: But it's also interesting there were two early on, two
20:57
Speaker 5: really different ideas about the Internet that conflicting, which I
21:01
Speaker 5: think speak to the fact that we still have conflict
21:04
Speaker 5: on information going on. And there was one idea that
21:07
Speaker 5: was kind of the cyber liberal idea, which was sort
21:10
Speaker 5: of like, I don't mean to be too flip about it,
21:12
Speaker 5: but we're all going to hold hands and dance around
21:14
Speaker 5: the peace tree with all this information because we're all
21:16
Speaker 5: going to be better people and we'll all get along
21:20
Speaker 5: and we'll all.
21:21
Speaker 1: See the truth. We'll see the light, right right.
21:25
Speaker 5: And then the other one was the Internet is this
21:28
Speaker 5: place where there's not going to be any government or
21:29
Speaker 5: any rules. It's going to be a perfect libertarian experiment,
21:33
Speaker 5: because people really believed once they even though the Internet
21:36
Speaker 5: was created by the government governments, mostly the US government,
21:40
Speaker 5: but other governments were involved. It was created by the
21:42
Speaker 5: government as an experiment, as a scientific experiment.
21:45
Speaker 4: For twenty thirty years before it was really unleashed. People
21:49
Speaker 4: believe that.
21:49
Speaker 5: The government was going to be able to control it well,
21:52
Speaker 5: we certainly discovered that governments sure can control the Internet,
21:55
Speaker 5: and you know, just look at China, look at Iran,
21:57
Speaker 5: look at Cuba. You know they could throw it quite effectively,
22:01
Speaker 5: mir and mar So yes, there it didn't play out
22:05
Speaker 5: to us.
22:05
Speaker 4: Just great optimism. And I think what we're dealing with
22:09
Speaker 4: is that.
22:12
Speaker 5: So much information and so many different ways of accessing
22:16
Speaker 5: it in so many voices.
22:17
Speaker 4: It is really changing.
22:20
Speaker 5: The way we think in much the same way something
22:23
Speaker 5: we haven't experienced really for about five hundred years since
22:25
Speaker 5: printing form movable type really came on and changed just
22:29
Speaker 5: from a mostly oral culture to a written culture, and
22:33
Speaker 5: that we're now moving into what's been.
22:35
Speaker 4: Called a post lyric culture, which is still has writing.
22:39
Speaker 5: Writing is still going to be important, but it's a
22:41
Speaker 5: different way of sharing and processing and thinking about information.
22:45
Speaker 5: And we as a people are still struggling with that
22:49
Speaker 5: because it's it came so fast and it's so powerful.
22:52
Speaker 1: It did. And I'm glad you brought up the printing
22:54
Speaker 1: press because that was viewed as a threat, most largely
22:56
Speaker 1: to religion and people everybody can read, they can read
22:58
Speaker 1: for themselves, interpret themselves. And I have to listen to
23:00
Speaker 1: the man in front of the room, just one illustration
23:03
Speaker 1: of the concern that the powers that be had about
23:04
Speaker 1: the printing printing press. Same thing goes for the Internet.
23:07
Speaker 1: Oh my god, we're not going to be ab to
23:08
Speaker 1: control the narrative. Walter Kronkite is not going to be
23:10
Speaker 1: the guy with nine hundred different articles to read and
23:12
Speaker 1: he picks three of them for whatever political bias he
23:15
Speaker 1: might have. That's what we used to rely on. So
23:18
Speaker 1: now the problem seems to be that, in an effort
23:22
Speaker 1: to sort of reign in conspiracy theories and misinformation and
23:26
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing, what we find out is
23:28
Speaker 1: the powers that be, the facebooks, the twitters and those
23:31
Speaker 1: who control them, their lords and masters, perhaps through the government,
23:34
Speaker 1: are trying to change the narrative to what they want
23:37
Speaker 1: us to read. Now, the problem with that component is
23:42
Speaker 1: we now aren't even trusting anything we read on the Internet.
23:45
Speaker 1: Everything becomes this conspiracy theory. We don't trust the factfinders anymore.
23:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's I mean, that's a challenge, sure, because there
23:53
Speaker 5: are of any voices, and it really is hard, you know,
23:57
Speaker 5: who really knows what, Who do we trust?
24:01
Speaker 4: Who can we really listen to? And part of that
24:06
Speaker 4: I think has to do with and I don't really
24:10
Speaker 4: see it as a conspiracy.
24:11
Speaker 5: I think it as just the way society and people
24:16
Speaker 5: work is the you know, we lived in the Industrial age,
24:22
Speaker 5: and industry hasn't gone away, just like we lived in
24:25
Speaker 5: an agricultural age. Well, agriculture hasn't gone away either. We
24:28
Speaker 5: had agriculture and then we had agriculture and industry, and
24:31
Speaker 5: now we have the information age, and information has become
24:36
Speaker 5: more valuable than it ever was. And you know, there
24:40
Speaker 5: was industry before the Industrial Age. It was smaller and
24:43
Speaker 5: less important. But starting around in the eighteenth century and
24:46
Speaker 5: the seventeen hundreds in Europe mostly industry became much more
24:51
Speaker 5: important and it continued to be important for a long time.
24:53
Speaker 5: And now information is kind of stepping in and part
24:57
Speaker 5: of what we're seeing in because information is so valuable
25:03
Speaker 5: really dollars and cents, and with digital technology and the
25:10
Speaker 5: newness of all of this TikTok and all these other things,
25:13
Speaker 5: it's kind of like a gold rush for information. Yeah,
25:16
Speaker 5: in that you've got all these people out there and
25:19
Speaker 5: if you can hit the sweet spot.
25:20
Speaker 4: If you can find this pocket of gold, you can
25:22
Speaker 4: become rich and famous. And I think part.
25:26
Speaker 5: Of the allure is that the desire to become rich
25:31
Speaker 5: and famous, which has always been around. I mean, in
25:33
Speaker 5: nineteen thirty eight, you could go to Hollywood and sit
25:37
Speaker 5: around looking cute and maybe you'll.
25:38
Speaker 4: Get discovered and become rich and famous. Right, Well, now
25:41
Speaker 4: you can do it from your bedroom.
25:42
Speaker 6: And you're design and app Oh and if I want, yeah, right,
25:46
Speaker 6: and or get on TikTok, and if I say the
25:49
Speaker 6: right magic combination of things and act in the right
25:52
Speaker 6: magic way, I can become rich and famous and suddenly
25:55
Speaker 6: whether what I say is truthful or not doesn't really
25:57
Speaker 6: matter very much.
26:00
Speaker 1: Listen to the recent South Park episode on that you
26:02
Speaker 1: know you're oh yeah.
26:05
Speaker 4: I just see it, But I can certainly believe those
26:07
Speaker 4: guys would would catch on to that.
26:09
Speaker 1: Of course, in an effort to become famous on TikTok,
26:12
Speaker 1: then you have this sort of you know, uh image
26:14
Speaker 1: that you create. It may not be you, but it's
26:17
Speaker 1: appealing to the broader masses. So in an effort to
26:19
Speaker 1: appeal to the broader masses, you become something you're not
26:22
Speaker 1: to dupe the broader masses into liking you. That to
26:25
Speaker 1: me suggests some level of narcissism. Honestly, Donald Barclay, author
26:29
Speaker 1: of Disinformation, Nature, Facts and Lies and post through the
26:31
Speaker 1: Era that I don't get you think that I'd be
26:34
Speaker 1: somewhat narcissistic being a radio program host. That's the worst
26:37
Speaker 1: part of my job. It's being a public figure. I
26:40
Speaker 1: hate social media. But I'm not interested in a bunch
26:43
Speaker 1: of people liking me. I'm just interested in looking for
26:45
Speaker 1: the truth, logic and reason. There are what I live by.
26:48
Speaker 1: So is it part of the Is it our psychology
26:51
Speaker 1: that's a problem here, that this Internet has created a
26:54
Speaker 1: vehicle for us to appeal to our our lesser traits.
26:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, every.
27:00
Speaker 5: One of us, and I'm including myself. I'm not better
27:02
Speaker 5: than anybody else. Believe me, I question myself all the time.
27:06
Speaker 5: We all have cognitive biases, and there are ways of thinking.
27:13
Speaker 5: They may be genetic, they may be formed by our
27:16
Speaker 5: families growing up.
27:17
Speaker 4: They may be phoned by.
27:20
Speaker 5: Financial pressures, what have you. But there are ways of
27:25
Speaker 5: seeing the world.
27:26
Speaker 4: And we we feel good.
27:29
Speaker 5: It's almost like a drug. When something feeds our cognitive
27:32
Speaker 5: bias and and makes us feel like we're right and
27:37
Speaker 5: it speaks to what we think. It makes us feel
27:40
Speaker 5: really good, and it makes us very hard for us
27:43
Speaker 5: to question whether what we're hearing.
27:45
Speaker 4: Is true or not.
27:47
Speaker 1: The old echo chamber kind yeah, kind.
27:50
Speaker 4: Of like that echo chamber is part of it. And
27:52
Speaker 4: and of course.
27:53
Speaker 5: In the digital age, it becomes really easy to surround
27:56
Speaker 5: yourself with.
27:57
Speaker 4: People who who say things that you like to hear.
28:01
Speaker 5: You know, well, I listened to a British podcaster named
28:05
Speaker 5: Tim har Harmon Harford, and he's a British economist and
28:11
Speaker 5: he's he's kind of I would say he's kind of the.
28:14
Speaker 4: Middle of the road. Some people might say he's a
28:15
Speaker 4: little liberal. I don't know.
28:17
Speaker 5: And he talks about not so much about economics, but
28:20
Speaker 5: he talks about mistakes that people have made and how
28:23
Speaker 5: these Mistaic Scott made and stuff, and he's a really
28:25
Speaker 5: interesting guy. But I know that he speaks to my
28:28
Speaker 5: cognitive biases and that's why I like it. And somebody
28:31
Speaker 5: else with a different set of cognitiases probably listened to
28:33
Speaker 5: Tim Harford and go, oh, I can poke holes in
28:37
Speaker 5: what he's saying you.
28:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where debate comes in, though Donald doesn't it.
28:41
Speaker 1: If you think you can poke holes in a guy's
28:43
Speaker 1: theory and you can have a sit down discussion and
28:46
Speaker 1: walk through what you believe and contrasted with what they believe,
28:49
Speaker 1: you can come to some conclusion whether which side is
28:52
Speaker 1: right or at least part company saying, okay, we're going
28:54
Speaker 1: to have to gree to disagree. That's not what the
28:56
Speaker 1: internet does, you know. The flip side of what you said.
28:59
Speaker 1: People want to be haress, they want to be liked,
29:01
Speaker 1: They want to you know, yes, hurrah hurrah, that's one thing.
29:04
Speaker 1: But the flip side is also true. They don't want
29:06
Speaker 1: to hear negative criticism, and they get all freaked out
29:08
Speaker 1: and anxious when someone has the audacity to criticize them
29:11
Speaker 1: on social media. You know, well that's gonna come with
29:13
Speaker 1: a territory.
29:15
Speaker 5: Right right, And you know, and I do, even though
29:18
Speaker 5: like I like Tim Harford and I really recommend him.
29:20
Speaker 5: Actually he's a really interesting guy. I try to think
29:23
Speaker 5: very carefully about, Okay, what what's missing here? You know,
29:26
Speaker 5: because whenever we tell a story, we can only tell.
29:29
Speaker 4: Certain parts of it. You know.
29:30
Speaker 5: Indeed, and I don't know if you've ever written a book,
29:33
Speaker 5: but no, but there's two things that happen when you
29:36
Speaker 5: write a book.
29:37
Speaker 4: You know, unless you're a raging egoist, and then you're
29:38
Speaker 4: just dancing around the room, and believe me, I don't
29:40
Speaker 4: dance around the room when my book comes out. But
29:41
Speaker 4: there's two things that happened. The first part is you
29:44
Speaker 4: go through the book and you go, oh, crap, I
29:45
Speaker 4: wish I hadn't said that.
29:47
Speaker 5: And then the second part is, oh, there, I should
29:49
Speaker 5: have said this. And often there's a lot more I
29:51
Speaker 5: should have said this than oh I shouldn't have said that,
29:54
Speaker 5: because there's always more to the story, and there's always
29:56
Speaker 5: more I think. And I would encourage anybody who reads
29:59
Speaker 5: my book, and you know, oh, please read my book.
30:01
Speaker 4: I get a couple of sheckls. You know I'm in
30:04
Speaker 4: the game too.
30:05
Speaker 5: I'm not talking to you on this this conversation because
30:08
Speaker 5: I want to sell less copies of my book.
30:10
Speaker 1: Right right right, Well, it's described every day when the
30:14
Speaker 1: microphone turns off for me, gosh, I wish I'd have
30:16
Speaker 1: phrased that differently, or I wish I could unring that bell,
30:18
Speaker 1: or I wish I had elaborated on it before we
30:20
Speaker 1: part company. David, It's fascinating conversation. Great book, Disinformation in
30:23
Speaker 1: the Nature of Facts Lies in the post truth era.
30:25
Speaker 1: My listeners can get it online at fifty five care
30:27
Speaker 1: se dot com. We've also been to hear this conversation.
30:30
Speaker 1: Who do you recommend read the book?
30:33
Speaker 5: I think anybody who who's interested in in this particular book.
30:40
Speaker 4: The first book I wrote.
30:41
Speaker 5: Fake News, was kind of a how to about how
30:43
Speaker 5: do you recognize when somebody's yank in your chain?
30:45
Speaker 1: That right?
30:45
Speaker 4: Basically what that was about.
30:47
Speaker 5: This book is more about more of philosophy, philosophical about
30:51
Speaker 5: why do we.
30:52
Speaker 4: Why do we get tricked?
30:53
Speaker 5: Why do we Why does our mind let us fall
30:57
Speaker 5: for things? You know, and we all have fallen for things,
30:59
Speaker 5: and and we all we all have the capability to
31:03
Speaker 5: change our minds too about things, you know.
31:06
Speaker 1: Helping us with introspection maybe right, yeah, there you gout,
31:11
Speaker 1: you know, and just think about things we take for granted.
31:13
Speaker 5: You know, we often all of us talk about something logical,
31:15
Speaker 5: that's just logical.
31:16
Speaker 4: But oftentimes when you start picking it apart, you go, well, actually,
31:19
Speaker 4: there's more to it than that, you know, indeed.
31:21
Speaker 5: Quite as cut and dried. And oftentimes when people say
31:24
Speaker 5: that's just common sense, maybe not, Maybe there's another way
31:27
Speaker 5: to look at it. Indeed, I think that's an important
31:30
Speaker 5: it's important to be curious and it's you know what,
31:33
Speaker 5: it's important to have your principles too.
31:34
Speaker 4: Everybody can have lines they don't cross.
31:36
Speaker 5: That's fine, but understand that you've drawn those lines, and
31:39
Speaker 5: understand those lines are not the same for everybody.
31:41
Speaker 4: And I think that's really important.
31:43
Speaker 1: Hey man, I'll tell you what. It's been real fun
31:44
Speaker 1: talking with your Donald Barclay, author of and please get
31:47
Speaker 1: a copy fifty five carecy dot Com Disinformation The Nature
31:49
Speaker 1: of Facts Lies in the post truth era. Thanks again
31:51
Speaker 1: for coming on the program. Keep going the great work. Donald.
31:53
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure having you on the program.
31:55
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
31:58
Speaker 1: You probably read his books before. He is a best
32:00
Speaker 1: selling author's name is John crib He's written about subjects
32:03
Speaker 1: ranging from history to education. His prior novel Old Abe
32:07
Speaker 1: hailed for its vivid portrayal of Abraham Lincoln, and his
32:09
Speaker 1: previous work includes co authoring The American Patriots Almanac and
32:13
Speaker 1: The Educated Child, both New York Times bestseller, co editing
32:18
Speaker 1: The Human Odyssey three volume World History Techs, and developing
32:21
Speaker 1: online history courses. He's appeared on numerous TV radio and
32:24
Speaker 1: podcast shows, such as c SPAN, Washington Journal, Fox, News
32:28
Speaker 1: and Fox and Friends, and his writing has been published
32:30
Speaker 1: in my favorite paper of the Wall Street Journal, USA Today,
32:33
Speaker 1: Fox News. Welcome to the program, John crib We're here
32:36
Speaker 1: to talk about his new book, which is called The
32:38
Speaker 1: Rail Splitter. It's it's let's see here, I've lost my
32:44
Speaker 1: subtitle there, John, Welcome to the program. It's good to
32:47
Speaker 1: have you on the fifty five KRC Morning Show.
32:49
Speaker 7: Hey Brian, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
32:51
Speaker 1: No, my pleasure. I had to ask you about this
32:53
Speaker 1: because it's described as a work of historical fiction. So
32:57
Speaker 1: what you, I guess, have done, and please explain to
32:59
Speaker 1: my listener. You have Abraham Lincoln's solid history, which you
33:03
Speaker 1: could turn into, you know, a history book which would
33:05
Speaker 1: not take liberties with facts, but you tell a story
33:08
Speaker 1: while relying on real history in your book, The Rail Splitter.
33:13
Speaker 7: Correct, Yes, exactly, it's it is historical fiction, but it
33:16
Speaker 7: very closely tracks his life. As a matter of fact,
33:18
Speaker 7: there's a date at the top of each chapter saying
33:20
Speaker 7: we need to know when these things were happening. But
33:21
Speaker 7: it starts him off as a teenager on the Indiana
33:24
Speaker 7: Frontier and then you're just at a side as he
33:27
Speaker 7: makes his way from the Indiana Woods to the Illinois
33:30
Speaker 7: Prairies and then up through the Lincoln Douglas Debates eighteen
33:33
Speaker 7: fifty eight right to the threshold of the White House.
33:35
Speaker 7: So it's an amazing story, and it's an important story
33:38
Speaker 7: in a lot of ways. It's the story of the
33:40
Speaker 7: American dream.
33:42
Speaker 1: Well, can I ask you, you're obviously a wildly successful
33:45
Speaker 1: author when you're writing a work versus a work of
33:49
Speaker 1: just true history, which doesn't create a story of a
33:52
Speaker 1: fiction story. Is it easier to write a work of
33:55
Speaker 1: historical fiction? Because you know, I'm challenged. I couldn't write
33:58
Speaker 1: a novel or a work of of nonfiction, but I
34:02
Speaker 1: guess it probably lends itself to your creative process. But
34:06
Speaker 1: having to stick with the historical facts about Abraham Lincoln,
34:10
Speaker 1: I imagine that represents some challenge itself. Which is it
34:13
Speaker 1: easier to write a historical fiction book or is it harder?
34:16
Speaker 7: You know, I would I'm not sure.
34:18
Speaker 4: I don't know.
34:18
Speaker 7: I would say it's easier or harder. The nonfiction is
34:21
Speaker 7: harder because you know, you really want to stick to
34:24
Speaker 7: the facts and get it, you know, make sure it's
34:27
Speaker 7: absolutely right. So there's a kind of higher standard there.
34:30
Speaker 7: Fiction is harder and that you got, you know, you're
34:32
Speaker 7: exercising your creativity and your imagination more so. That's there's
34:35
Speaker 7: challenges about and this had both of it. This is
34:38
Speaker 7: kind of challenging on both fronts because I really wanted
34:41
Speaker 7: this to be right. You know, He's not chasing vampires
34:43
Speaker 7: or killing zombies that kind of stuff, And this is
34:45
Speaker 7: the real, real Lincoln. And I've got about, I think
34:50
Speaker 7: probably about three hundred books about Abraham Lincoln his times
34:54
Speaker 7: just on my bookshelves here at home. And I've spent
34:57
Speaker 7: many years, you know, researching his life and in him,
35:00
Speaker 7: and so, uh, you know, I really wanted to, as
35:03
Speaker 7: I say, stick to the to the story. But what
35:07
Speaker 7: I've done here is I've filled in the gaps and
35:09
Speaker 7: details with my imagination, and that's kind of what moves
35:12
Speaker 7: it into the realm of historical fiction. Occasionally unvent a
35:15
Speaker 7: minor character to keep the story moving along, but almost
35:17
Speaker 7: all the characters walking on and off the pages are
35:19
Speaker 7: real people like Lincoln and his stepmother and his dad,
35:23
Speaker 7: and you know, his friends he meets along the way,
35:26
Speaker 7: and Stephen Douglas and then an Old Day you know
35:29
Speaker 7: my other novel, you know, people like unless he says
35:32
Speaker 7: Grant and Frederick Douglass. So the characters are real of
35:35
Speaker 7: a dialogue is drawn as most much as I could
35:38
Speaker 7: get it from. I'm drawing on the words that Lincoln
35:40
Speaker 7: and others spoke or wrote. I've used a lot of old,
35:43
Speaker 7: you know, old primary source documents, letters, memoirs, journals, that
35:47
Speaker 7: kind of thing, people's memories of their counters and descriptions
35:51
Speaker 7: of Lincoln to really try to bring the real Lincoln alive.
35:53
Speaker 7: And that's my that's my main goal here is to
35:56
Speaker 7: is to bring him alive for readers, because he has
35:59
Speaker 7: been an inspiration for generations of Americans, and I don't
36:02
Speaker 7: I don't want to still lose that.
36:04
Speaker 1: Well, I would imagine works of historical fiction, at least
36:06
Speaker 1: in my experience, they're much better page turners, and they
36:09
Speaker 1: glue you and rivet you to the book more so
36:11
Speaker 1: than a work of nonfiction. So what drew you to
36:16
Speaker 1: I'm clearly based upon your library collection and the fact
36:19
Speaker 1: you've written on Abraham Lincoln for so many times? What
36:20
Speaker 1: drew you to Abraham Lincoln? Considering the multitude of prominent
36:24
Speaker 1: historical figures in the United States history, you chose Lincoln
36:28
Speaker 1: why is that, John?
36:29
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I've been a Lincoln fan since I
36:32
Speaker 7: was a boy, and it's you know, this is as
36:34
Speaker 7: often happens when you're you know, when you're younger, you
36:38
Speaker 7: get interested in something and then either you stick with
36:40
Speaker 7: it or later on in life. But when I was young,
36:42
Speaker 7: my mom, you know, did what parents are supposed to do.
36:44
Speaker 7: She read aloud to me and my brothers and sisters,
36:46
Speaker 7: and we Uh. One of the books she read to
36:48
Speaker 7: us was an old book called Abe Lincoln Frontier Boy,
36:51
Speaker 7: and uh, that just you know, those stories of him
36:54
Speaker 7: growing up on the frontier and living in a log
36:56
Speaker 7: cabin and you know, splitting firewood and building split ral
36:59
Speaker 7: fin just grab my imagination. So I've always loved Lincoln
37:04
Speaker 7: and decided it was back in two thousand and six, though,
37:06
Speaker 7: that I decided to try to tackle his life in
37:10
Speaker 7: historical fiction because surprisingly, I realized that nobody had ever
37:13
Speaker 7: really told his life the a full blown historical fiction,
37:18
Speaker 7: from his youth on the frontier all the way through
37:20
Speaker 7: the end of his life. And that's what these two books,
37:23
Speaker 7: The Rail Splitter and then All Day That's that's what
37:25
Speaker 7: they do. They take you through his whole life.
37:26
Speaker 1: Well, and as you pointed out, the new book, the
37:29
Speaker 1: rail Splitter we're talking about today leads you up to
37:32
Speaker 1: the presidency, and Old Abe is a story of the
37:35
Speaker 1: last five years of Abraham's Lincoln. So I suppose somewhere
37:39
Speaker 1: in there, maybe there's another work that you'll do. I
37:41
Speaker 1: don't know, we were there. Go ahead, make up more
37:45
Speaker 1: stories and incorporate more more work about more real history
37:49
Speaker 1: about Abraham Lincoln, so we can learn something and have
37:50
Speaker 1: a good time reading at the same time. Have you
37:53
Speaker 1: ever been to his birthplace? I was on a motorcycle
37:55
Speaker 1: trip with my uncle. And I think I only bring
37:58
Speaker 1: that up because I think people really lose sight of
38:02
Speaker 1: how primitive the world was during those times when you
38:06
Speaker 1: see that log cabinet's like, oh my god, we're so spoiled,
38:10
Speaker 1: And I think we we tend to project that, Oh,
38:12
Speaker 1: you know, there were paved roads back then, and there
38:15
Speaker 1: was running water back then, And no, I mean this
38:17
Speaker 1: was like permanent camping out in the wilderness time.
38:21
Speaker 7: Yeah, it really was. I mean they, I mean they
38:24
Speaker 7: were living close to the way people lived in medieval ages.
38:28
Speaker 7: Nine and I went to a lecture last last night
38:32
Speaker 7: at Clemson University. Got a great Lincoln historian Alan Gelzo,
38:35
Speaker 7: and he was kind of talking about this and he
38:38
Speaker 7: said something, I'd really never realized that the kerosene lantern
38:40
Speaker 7: had not even been invented by when Lincoln was born.
38:43
Speaker 7: I mean, that's how primitive the world was allowed to them.
38:45
Speaker 7: Was just a placed in a cup of hot greas
38:48
Speaker 7: the only way I could make life. So he just,
38:51
Speaker 7: you know, he's born into a time when things are
38:55
Speaker 7: very he grows up in a very very frontier environment,
38:59
Speaker 7: when life where life was very very hard and people
39:03
Speaker 7: didn't have much. But one thing that he did have.
39:06
Speaker 7: In that time and place where he was born and
39:08
Speaker 7: grew up out on that part of the frontier, most
39:10
Speaker 7: people were free to make their way in life as
39:13
Speaker 7: best they could. And this is one reason he cherishes
39:16
Speaker 7: freedom so much, because you know, it allows him to
39:19
Speaker 7: make a better life for himself and he and why
39:21
Speaker 7: he wants it for other people. And one reason he
39:22
Speaker 7: hates slavery so.
39:23
Speaker 1: Much indeed, and what drew him to education. Clearly he
39:27
Speaker 1: was an educated man. But when you think of that,
39:29
Speaker 1: you know, subsistence, subsistence in world you're spending your whole day,
39:34
Speaker 1: like you say, splitting rails and chopping wood and farming
39:37
Speaker 1: and trying to It's a hunter gatherer kind of reality.
39:41
Speaker 1: When did he have time to work in education? Why?
39:43
Speaker 1: What drew him to educating himself?
39:46
Speaker 7: Well, it's a great question, because he was a self educated.
39:49
Speaker 7: He used to say his father, Tom Lincoln sent him
39:51
Speaker 7: to school by littles. He said, a little here and
39:52
Speaker 7: a little there, and those littles added up to less
39:55
Speaker 7: than one year of school. His whole life less than
39:57
Speaker 7: a year, and that took place in a lock having,
39:59
Speaker 7: you know, school houses on the frontier. But he loved
40:02
Speaker 7: to read. He was a voracious reader. He would literally
40:05
Speaker 7: walk miles from the Indiana Woods to get hold of
40:07
Speaker 7: a book he could if he could, I mean he
40:08
Speaker 7: would walk twenty miles to get a book. And he
40:11
Speaker 7: just he devoured books. So he just had that burning
40:15
Speaker 7: desire to learn. And his whole life, you know, he
40:19
Speaker 7: you know, he turned himself to he's an attorney by profession.
40:23
Speaker 7: There's no law school for him to go to. He
40:24
Speaker 7: got a hold of a book called Blackstone's Commentaries on
40:28
Speaker 7: the Laws of England and other books, and he was
40:30
Speaker 7: living in a little frontier village called New Sale of Illinois.
40:33
Speaker 7: Years later, people remembered seeing him sitting around on you know,
40:37
Speaker 7: tree stumps and fences, just reading away at this book
40:40
Speaker 7: until he turns himself into an attorney, and eventually a
40:43
Speaker 7: very good one.
40:44
Speaker 1: That's wonderful, you know. I just proving the point that
40:46
Speaker 1: I make regularly on the fifty five Caressey Morning Show.
40:48
Speaker 1: I give my parents a lot of credit for a
40:50
Speaker 1: whole lot of things. I was blessed to have both
40:51
Speaker 1: of them, But the greatest gift they ever gave me
40:54
Speaker 1: was insisting that I got a good education, because that
40:57
Speaker 1: is truly what liberates you in this world.
41:00
Speaker 8: Yeah.
41:00
Speaker 9: Yeah.
41:00
Speaker 7: The very first time he ever ran for office, in
41:02
Speaker 7: eighteen thirty two, Lincoln ran for the people about little
41:06
Speaker 7: village of New Salem, had about a hundred people living
41:08
Speaker 7: in it. They came to him and said, we think
41:09
Speaker 7: he'd be good at representing us. So he runs for
41:12
Speaker 7: office in eighteen thirty two. He loses, but he runs
41:14
Speaker 7: again two years later, wins and spends four terms in
41:17
Speaker 7: the Illinois State House. That's how he gets into politics.
41:19
Speaker 7: But at first time he runs, he writes, he says,
41:22
Speaker 7: upon the subject of education, I can say I can
41:24
Speaker 7: only say it's the most important subject, which we as
41:27
Speaker 7: American people can concern ourselves with. So even though he's
41:30
Speaker 7: got less than a year of schooling, he knows how
41:34
Speaker 7: absolutely vital education is.
41:36
Speaker 1: Well, when you think about that and you think of
41:37
Speaker 1: modern education, the failures that we see in schools across
41:40
Speaker 1: this country, it just makes me want to cry.
41:43
Speaker 9: Me too.
41:43
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think Lincoln would not be happy.
41:45
Speaker 1: No, he would not. Gentlemen, Today we're talking with John
41:48
Speaker 1: Cribb of wildly successful best selling author of the book
41:51
Speaker 1: The Rail Splitter. As always, your book is going to
41:55
Speaker 1: be on my blog and podcast page. The podcast will
41:57
Speaker 1: be on there, and the blog page will have the
41:58
Speaker 1: link to get people can get your book, and I'll
42:00
Speaker 1: recommend they go ahead and get both of them the
42:02
Speaker 1: same time, because old Abe is well worth reading. It'd
42:05
Speaker 1: be a nice one to two great read on Abraham
42:08
Speaker 1: Lincoln before we part company. I have to ask you this,
42:10
Speaker 1: since you know so much about him other than you
42:13
Speaker 1: know his liberating the slaves and the Civil War related
42:16
Speaker 1: is there some like interesting thing that just sort of
42:19
Speaker 1: jumps out of you that you learned about Abraham Lincoln
42:21
Speaker 1: throughout your years of studies that a lot of people
42:23
Speaker 1: don't know that just really is worth bringing out, like
42:25
Speaker 1: did you know that Abraham Lincoln fill in the blank
42:28
Speaker 1: kind of fact?
42:29
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, there are lots of them, and you'll learn
42:30
Speaker 7: them in these books. For example, Lincoln twice when he
42:33
Speaker 7: was young, built flatboats with with buddies and out of
42:37
Speaker 7: you know, cut down trees, built flatboats, loaded them with
42:39
Speaker 7: frontier produce, produce like live hogs and corner whiskey, and
42:42
Speaker 7: float to them all the way down the Mississippi River,
42:45
Speaker 7: like Huck fend in New Orleans to sell them. The
42:47
Speaker 7: first first trip, he's attacked by river pirates on the way. Now,
42:49
Speaker 7: so his life is full of adventure, and they just
42:52
Speaker 7: real quick.
42:53
Speaker 4: You know.
42:53
Speaker 7: One thing that I didn't realize until going into this
42:55
Speaker 7: as when he's president, just what a man of deep
42:59
Speaker 7: faith he become while he's president. That really was one
43:03
Speaker 7: of the surprising things to me. As the war drags on,
43:07
Speaker 7: it becomes worse and worse, he more and more turns
43:10
Speaker 7: to the Bible and become I think a man of
43:13
Speaker 7: deep faith.
43:13
Speaker 1: Well faith can get you through the toughest times, you know.
43:16
Speaker 1: And I reacted when you said, Huck Finn, I literally
43:18
Speaker 1: wrote down as I was reading about the book, I
43:21
Speaker 1: wrote down huck Finn Adventures, and that's basically what you've got,
43:25
Speaker 1: a historical work of Lincoln's younger years on this Huckleberry
43:28
Speaker 1: Finn style adventure that he experienced throughout his life. A
43:32
Speaker 1: fascinating book. I'm so happy to be able to talk
43:34
Speaker 1: to you about it and spread the word to my listeners.
43:36
Speaker 1: Got to fifty five care Sea dot com. Folks get
43:38
Speaker 1: a copy of The Rail Splitter by my guest today,
43:39
Speaker 1: John John John Crib. I will look forward to talking
43:42
Speaker 1: to you again because I have a feeling there'll be
43:43
Speaker 1: another book coming down the pike soon.
43:46
Speaker 7: I hope. So I really appreciate it.
43:48
Speaker 1: Brian, my pleasure. John, keep doing the good work and
43:50
Speaker 1: thanks again for the comments today and spending time with
43:52
Speaker 1: my listeners and me. Raynards gentleman, Welcome to the fifty
43:55
Speaker 1: five Cars Morning Show. By way of background, he has
43:59
Speaker 1: quite a back. He was the Central He was at
44:02
Speaker 1: the Central Ursude for Social Science Research and at the
44:05
Speaker 1: Free University in Berlin. He became editor in chief of
44:07
Speaker 1: the third largest book publishing group in Germany. Also has
44:12
Speaker 1: written numerous books, twenty six of them. Twenty six of
44:17
Speaker 1: them including the one We're Gonna Be Talking about today
44:18
Speaker 1: in defense of capitalism. He was awarded his second doctor
44:22
Speaker 1: degree in sociology with his thesis on the psychology of
44:24
Speaker 1: the super Rich. Welcome to the program, Rainer's Gettlement. It's
44:27
Speaker 1: pleasure to have you on today.
44:30
Speaker 9: Hello, good morning.
44:31
Speaker 1: I have to ask you the one thing I keep
44:33
Speaker 1: hearing about capitalism, and I'm very pro capitalism. I just
44:36
Speaker 1: need to look at my history of my country here
44:38
Speaker 1: in the United States, and know that we are the
44:39
Speaker 1: wealthiest nation of the world, and that we have done
44:42
Speaker 1: tremendous things on behalf of the world's population. We've solved
44:45
Speaker 1: as eve, We've helped with starvation issues, brilliant inventions. Because
44:51
Speaker 1: capitalism is motivated by a profit margin. If I got
44:54
Speaker 1: that wrong, is not the goal of inventors to make
44:59
Speaker 1: a profit off their inventions as well as to help humanity.
45:01
Speaker 8: Doctor, I think the most important thing that I would
45:06
Speaker 8: mention is this, look before capitalism. Two hundred years ago,
45:10
Speaker 8: ninety percent of the worldwide population lives in extractre in poverty.
45:14
Speaker 8: Ninety percent. Today it's less than ten percent. I think
45:18
Speaker 8: this is amazing. This was because of capitalism. And of
45:21
Speaker 8: course you are correct, the United States, America, the createst
45:24
Speaker 8: country ever. Why is that because of capitalism? Because you
45:28
Speaker 8: had capitalism. If you would have in social system, you
45:30
Speaker 8: would have enough. You never would have been so successful.
45:34
Speaker 8: And I have doubts whether people forget it. I have
45:37
Speaker 8: here a new book I started to read it by
45:39
Speaker 8: Bernie Sanders, and the titles It's okay to be angry
45:43
Speaker 8: about capitalism. No, I think it's not okay to be
45:45
Speaker 8: angry about capitalism because we thank all our success, especially
45:50
Speaker 8: in the United States, to capitalism.
45:53
Speaker 1: Well, capitalism leads to extra money. I've noted. When I
45:56
Speaker 1: grew up, you know, they started worrying about pollution and
45:59
Speaker 1: the envince. Here in our country. Circle laws were passed,
46:02
Speaker 1: clean up laws were passed. You know, things were improved
46:05
Speaker 1: from an environmental standpoint. You can't do that unless you
46:08
Speaker 1: have an abundance of wealth. You're busy. It's almost like
46:12
Speaker 1: you go from a hunter gatherer into a point where
46:14
Speaker 1: you develop society. People have jobs and extra income, and
46:16
Speaker 1: that's when you can start taking care of the broader
46:18
Speaker 1: problems in society. But you need a lot of capital
46:21
Speaker 1: to do that.
46:23
Speaker 8: Yes, but this is what a lot of people don't know.
46:25
Speaker 8: If we speak about environments, anti capitalists tell us capitalism
46:29
Speaker 8: is responsible for environmental destruction and for climate change, but
46:33
Speaker 8: the opposite is true.
46:35
Speaker 7: I g.
46:35
Speaker 8: If you're an example, I live here in Germany as
46:37
Speaker 8: you're here with my accent, and I have some numbers
46:40
Speaker 8: in my book. If you compare East and West termly,
46:43
Speaker 8: you know East Termany was socialist, West term capitalists. The
46:46
Speaker 8: COO two emissions in East Germany were three times higher
46:51
Speaker 8: than in West Termany, and the environmental standards were so bad.
46:55
Speaker 8: And what a lot of people don't know. If you look,
46:57
Speaker 8: for example, quality of the air or quality of the water,
47:01
Speaker 8: it's much better than it's well thirty years ago. You
47:04
Speaker 8: can read some facts in my book. You can also
47:07
Speaker 8: read it. Maybe you know Stephen Pinker his book Enlightened
47:10
Speaker 8: Now it's a great book, but a lot of people
47:13
Speaker 8: don't know it. Of course, there is this topic of
47:15
Speaker 8: climate change. But I remember, for one thing, planned economy
47:21
Speaker 8: didn't solve any problem in the world in the last
47:24
Speaker 8: time hundred years. It fails time and again. And why
47:26
Speaker 8: should the problem of climate change the first problem that
47:30
Speaker 8: will be solved by planned economy. I'm absolutely convinced that
47:35
Speaker 8: the country is correct. Only with capitalists it can also
47:39
Speaker 8: solve these problems of enviro mental destruction, not with another system.
47:43
Speaker 1: Well, I'm old enough to remember that our population was
47:46
Speaker 1: going to explode to the point where it was going
47:47
Speaker 1: to be a mass starvation, the Malthusian idea that the
47:51
Speaker 1: world could not sustain the population. Well, we're over six
47:54
Speaker 1: billion people now and we seem to really manage food production.
47:58
Speaker 1: Find they didn't anticipate technology led by capitalism solving the
48:03
Speaker 1: global problems that they perceive to exist back then. We've
48:07
Speaker 1: proven them wrong. So why do we keep hearing about
48:10
Speaker 1: population control and reduced consumption in the name of saving
48:14
Speaker 1: the planet if it didn't work out and according to
48:17
Speaker 1: their predictions previously, and capitalism solve those problems absolutely.
48:22
Speaker 8: Maybe you remember this book from Clap of Rome, because
48:25
Speaker 8: fifty years ago they predicted that we are out of
48:28
Speaker 8: out of oil, out of most commodities. Everything was wrong.
48:33
Speaker 8: But today they tell us the same story again, and
48:35
Speaker 8: it's wrong because the SEO two emissions, they decop it
48:40
Speaker 8: from GDP proth in the meantime, Look, I give you
48:42
Speaker 8: a concrete example that it's not for abstras. For example,
48:46
Speaker 8: I think you have a smartphone, or most of the
48:48
Speaker 8: people have a smartphone before the smartphone was invented. In
48:52
Speaker 8: this is a typical capitalist invention. You needed early different
48:57
Speaker 8: devices for the same a calculator, telephone, and a camera,
49:01
Speaker 8: and the nerdy devices that you have now in one
49:05
Speaker 8: in smartphones. So it's a capitalist innovation, and we need
49:09
Speaker 8: less results from the smartphone that we needed to be
49:12
Speaker 8: tall or other examples. When I was young, I had
49:15
Speaker 8: a lot of records, a LPs, the old fashions. Later
49:20
Speaker 8: I bought the CDs. Today my girlfriend was much younger
49:23
Speaker 8: than me. She laughed at me because she downloaded to
49:26
Speaker 8: Spotify or whatever. So economic growth doesn't mean always that
49:32
Speaker 8: you need more resources, it's lost or time to go,
49:35
Speaker 8: but it's not now.
49:37
Speaker 1: Well address the argument made by anti capitalists that capitalism
49:40
Speaker 1: just results in rising inequality, that whole class warfare argument
49:44
Speaker 1: that they've been making since Karl Marx had had a
49:47
Speaker 1: thought in his head. That also isn't true. I mean
49:51
Speaker 1: what you tell, I mean the points you addressed capital
49:54
Speaker 1: and least the hunger and poverty wrong, rising inequality, wrong,
49:57
Speaker 1: unnecessary consumption, environmental destruction, climate change. All of these are
50:01
Speaker 1: the regular mantras that they scream at us in the
50:03
Speaker 1: face of the evidence you present in your book in
50:05
Speaker 1: defense of capitalism. Let me ask you this straightforward question
50:09
Speaker 1: Rainer's settlement. What is it that they want? If capitalism
50:14
Speaker 1: is successful and all ships can rise with the benefits
50:16
Speaker 1: of capitalism, why do they want to destroy it so much?
50:21
Speaker 8: It's ideology and you can't explain it. It's irrational. I'll
50:24
Speaker 8: tell you something that maybe you don't know. I live
50:27
Speaker 8: here in Germany and there's one book now it's so
50:30
Speaker 8: successful and the author is in every talk show. Unfortunately
50:34
Speaker 8: fought my book, but it's also a book about capitalism.
50:37
Speaker 8: It is written by anti capitalist number one year in
50:40
Speaker 8: my country. And do you know what she writes in
50:42
Speaker 8: her book? First, we should forbid to try the car,
50:45
Speaker 8: we should forbid to fly. We should know new buildings,
50:49
Speaker 8: but redistribute everything because we have enough buildings. And then
50:53
Speaker 8: you shouldn't eat more than two thousand five onders carries
50:56
Speaker 8: today and to control it you need rating car. So
51:00
Speaker 8: and there is not a strange outsider, but she's very
51:04
Speaker 8: popular here. People buy her books, She's in every talk show.
51:08
Speaker 8: It's irrational. It's ideological ideology. You can explain it, and
51:13
Speaker 8: the problem is if you come with facts like I
51:16
Speaker 8: do with my book. They won't read the book the
51:19
Speaker 8: Anti Capitalist, So I will tell you something I didn't read.
51:23
Speaker 8: I didn't wrote the book to convince anti capitalists because
51:27
Speaker 8: I'm sure they will not buy the book. They prefer
51:30
Speaker 8: to buy the new book from Bernie Sanders or the
51:33
Speaker 8: new book of the French economist Thomas Pictetti, and they
51:36
Speaker 8: prefer to buy book number thirty four that explains to
51:40
Speaker 8: them why capitalists is evil, then only to touch one
51:44
Speaker 8: book like this. Now, I wrote my book for people
51:47
Speaker 8: like you, hopefully some people who listen to us now,
51:51
Speaker 8: people who are pro capitalism, pro free market, antisocialism, but
51:56
Speaker 8: they need more facts for this book. I used to
51:59
Speaker 8: see the biplography, three hundred and fifty scientific books and papers,
52:04
Speaker 8: and I did a lot of research for this book.
52:06
Speaker 8: Not everyone is able or want to read three hundred
52:09
Speaker 8: and fifty books or doing this research. But I give
52:12
Speaker 8: it a very short form that everyone can understand it.
52:15
Speaker 8: If you are tech tax text so that you can
52:19
Speaker 8: win every discussion. Whenever you have a discussion with anti capitalists,
52:23
Speaker 8: you have the better peck. They have the ideology, but
52:26
Speaker 8: you have to.
52:26
Speaker 1: Text the facts the information. It's all in Reiners Getleman's
52:31
Speaker 1: new book in Defensive Capitalism, Debunking the Myths before we
52:34
Speaker 1: part company. The one thing I wanted to I want
52:36
Speaker 1: to ask you about is this idea that capitalism creates
52:39
Speaker 1: unnecessary consumption. I can see the arguments. I've heard the arguments.
52:43
Speaker 1: I know you have. The world can sustain like the
52:46
Speaker 1: United States level of consumption. Not everybody's going to build
52:48
Speaker 1: a three thousand square foot house. The world's resources can't
52:51
Speaker 1: handle it. There's too many. I mean, you can see
52:53
Speaker 1: where that goes, and you know on a ten thousand
52:56
Speaker 1: foot level, that kind of is appealing. From an argument,
52:58
Speaker 1: how do you respond to that one that is made regularly.
53:04
Speaker 8: I spoke about it before a little bit that troths
53:07
Speaker 8: doesn't mean that you need always more resources. I gave
53:11
Speaker 8: it the example from the from the CDs, from the
53:14
Speaker 8: from the iPhone and other things. So it was though
53:19
Speaker 8: before that if we have more crows, that we need
53:22
Speaker 8: more resources. But I have pats also in my book
53:25
Speaker 8: that there was a sea tackling from spending resources and
53:29
Speaker 8: crows of GDP. This is one thing. The other thing
53:32
Speaker 8: is if they speak about unnecessary consumption, I think I
53:38
Speaker 8: will tell them please go to Africa. Please go to
53:40
Speaker 8: China and tell people we have enough. We have here
53:43
Speaker 8: good standard of living in the United States, but you
53:46
Speaker 8: should live like you did before because there's not enough.
53:50
Speaker 8: Don't tell it people in the United States. Go to Africa,
53:52
Speaker 8: go to Asia. Tell people I'm very often in Asia,
53:55
Speaker 8: and it's amazing what's happened there. Look, for example, I've
53:58
Speaker 8: been in Vietnam, and Vietnam was in ninety ninety one
54:02
Speaker 8: of the poorest, maybe the poorest country in the world,
54:05
Speaker 8: poorer than epicent countries. And then they started with economic reforms,
54:10
Speaker 8: pro market reforms, they introduced private property. They call themselves socialists,
54:15
Speaker 8: but I guarantee you one thing. It's easier to tie
54:18
Speaker 8: the Marxist in the United States or European to find
54:21
Speaker 8: in Vietnam. So and now stand the flitting increased. And
54:25
Speaker 8: I'll go to them. Tell them it's called the mistake.
54:28
Speaker 8: It goes wrong. Please go back to the nineties, first
54:31
Speaker 8: because you were more equal, and second because you spent
54:34
Speaker 8: my results.
54:35
Speaker 9: Go to them.
54:35
Speaker 8: Discuss with them, don't discuss with me.
54:38
Speaker 1: That's great. Rady's element is a pleasure having on the
54:41
Speaker 1: program that I'm glad we're able to talk and your
54:43
Speaker 1: book is on my blog page of fifty five cares
54:45
Speaker 1: dot com, so my listeners can easily get a cap
54:48
Speaker 1: copy of it, and I recommend they share it with
54:49
Speaker 1: their friends. Keep up the great work, sir. It's been
54:52
Speaker 1: a real pleasure having you on my program. Right, Tim
54:55
Speaker 1: as here, happy to welcome to the firty five CARC
54:56
Speaker 1: Morning Show author Bob Delaney. The name of the book
54:58
Speaker 1: Heroes are human Lessons and Resilience, courage and wisdom from
55:01
Speaker 1: the COVID front lines. I guess that means he's a
55:04
Speaker 1: doctor or someone in the medical profession, but no, he's not.
55:07
Speaker 1: Bob Dainey. Welcome to the fifty five CARC Morning Show.
55:09
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you on today, sir, morning Brian,
55:12
Speaker 1: how are you. I'm doing well. You've written some other books.
55:14
Speaker 1: I would love someday to talk to you about Covert
55:16
Speaker 1: my years infiltrating the Mob, which sounds fascinating. But you
55:20
Speaker 1: also wrote Surviving the Shadows, A Journey of Hope into
55:23
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress, and that work in post traumatic stress
55:26
Speaker 1: and stress and your experiences, and I suppose, and tell
55:29
Speaker 1: me if I'm right, does that serve as a springboard
55:31
Speaker 1: for your writing this book? About the COVID frontlines and
55:34
Speaker 1: the medical profession.
55:36
Speaker 9: Exactly.
55:37
Speaker 10: Yeah, as you mentioned, covert my years infiltrating the mob.
55:41
Speaker 10: I was a young New Jersey State trooper when I
55:44
Speaker 10: was tapped to go on to cover and piltrate the
55:46
Speaker 10: Genevie's and Vernal crime family. He's back in the seventies
55:49
Speaker 10: and I became a president of a trucking company that
55:54
Speaker 10: served as our base of operations. But after three years
55:58
Speaker 10: of living another life, I surface from doing that undercover
56:02
Speaker 10: work and started dealing with post traumatic stress and became
56:06
Speaker 10: a student of it, became immersed into understanding what I
56:10
Speaker 10: was going through, the emotional violence inside of me that
56:13
Speaker 10: resulted and catapulted into the work that I've been doing
56:19
Speaker 10: for the past words decades with those who serve our
56:22
Speaker 10: military frontline first responders.
56:25
Speaker 1: So you experienced post traumatic stress as a consequence of
56:28
Speaker 1: the concern what over getting killed by the crime family
56:32
Speaker 1: because you were an inside operative? Is I can understand
56:35
Speaker 1: how that might happen, But is that the connection?
56:38
Speaker 9: Exactly? That's what some of the other basis. We're in
56:41
Speaker 9: a wire and if you get cault aware and a
56:43
Speaker 9: wire in that world, you're gonna die and so there's
56:48
Speaker 9: nothing on you when you work deep covered that says
56:50
Speaker 9: you are law enforcement. And so that was a constant concern.
56:54
Speaker 9: And yet I had to play as if none of
56:57
Speaker 9: this bothered me. Right, And even after I surface, everybody's
57:00
Speaker 9: telling me I'm a tough guy and I'm brave and
57:03
Speaker 9: heroic in the work that I did, But they didn't
57:05
Speaker 9: see me walking around my house two o'clock in the
57:08
Speaker 9: morning pushing shower curtains back with my gun out because
57:11
Speaker 9: I'm paranoid They're coming to get me.
57:13
Speaker 10: Wow.
57:13
Speaker 9: And so this journey that I went on.
57:17
Speaker 10: Really helped me understand that while that job was about
57:21
Speaker 10: putting away bad guys, it really was about having the
57:24
Speaker 10: experience to help a lot of good people understand the
57:26
Speaker 10: emotions that they're dealing with well.
57:28
Speaker 1: And as you describe that and anybody who's living that
57:31
Speaker 1: sort of stress, and I think about the men who
57:34
Speaker 1: serve on the front lines in the various conflicts, kicking
57:37
Speaker 1: indoors every single day, to be faced by evil guys
57:40
Speaker 1: with machine guns trying to kill them, and then you
57:42
Speaker 1: got to go out and do it again tomorrow, and
57:43
Speaker 1: then you got to do it and get the next day.
57:45
Speaker 1: Your life is constantly on ad you have that adrenaline
57:49
Speaker 1: that's constantly going through you run as high state of
57:51
Speaker 1: alert constantly, and then when you come back home, you
57:55
Speaker 1: can't just lay down in your bed and pretend life
57:57
Speaker 1: is normal. Your brain is wired to to stay that way, right.
58:02
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's you know, they compartmentalize. Whether it's a homicide detective,
58:06
Speaker 10: law enforcementalves or firefighter first responder, are military on foreign soil,
58:11
Speaker 10: they compartmentalize their experiences. And what drove me to heroes
58:15
Speaker 10: are human. Every hospital I drove by it said heroes
58:18
Speaker 10: work here, and so it underlined to me that those
58:23
Speaker 10: who serve in the healthcare community are at war with
58:26
Speaker 10: an invisible enemy. And so I drew the parallels between
58:29
Speaker 10: the work that I've been doing with Iraq, Afghanistan, and
58:32
Speaker 10: Vietnam bets for the last four decades to find out
58:36
Speaker 10: what was going on inside the health community healthcare community.
58:39
Speaker 10: And while I found that they are very good at
58:42
Speaker 10: taking care of us, they're not very good at taking
58:43
Speaker 10: care of themselves. And I wanted to underline to them
58:46
Speaker 10: that self care does not mean selfish, that they have
58:50
Speaker 10: to take care of them them as well.
58:53
Speaker 1: Well. As you were talking to these various healthcare providers
58:56
Speaker 1: and dealing with the COVID and their post traumatic stress
58:58
Speaker 1: or the stress that they experience. And I guess it
59:02
Speaker 1: depends on how much that person is committed to human
59:06
Speaker 1: life and loves their patients even though they're not their
59:09
Speaker 1: own loved ones. I guess I'm kind of framing it
59:11
Speaker 1: that way because I see, you know, I know nurses.
59:14
Speaker 1: I've mactified. My wife was a nurse for ten years
59:16
Speaker 1: before I met her in law school. But I imagine
59:20
Speaker 1: the stress isn't connected maybe with the loss of life
59:24
Speaker 1: they might see. But is it the workload? Is it
59:26
Speaker 1: the fear of contracting COVID? Is it the ridiculous rules
59:29
Speaker 1: that were put in place that separated family members with
59:32
Speaker 1: glass and elderly couldn't meet and commiserate with their loved ones.
59:36
Speaker 1: I mean, all of these draconian rules that rolled out
59:39
Speaker 1: to me that would be an extraordinarily stressful part of
59:41
Speaker 1: the job. Just the anguish that the patients and their
59:44
Speaker 1: loved ones are feeling.
59:47
Speaker 10: Yeah, everything that you just described are stories that I heard.
59:51
Speaker 10: I doesn't give you the story that ICU nurse who
59:54
Speaker 10: was working in the area COVID for so long, she
59:57
Speaker 10: just wanted to get out with her husband and go
59:59
Speaker 10: out on the lake, going on a boat and just relax.
1:00:02
Speaker 10: And they had a great day on the lake. And
1:00:04
Speaker 10: as they came in, she went to the front of
1:00:05
Speaker 10: the boat to tie it off and she started crying uncontrollably.
1:00:09
Speaker 10: And what had happened, Brian. She saw a small boat
1:00:13
Speaker 10: on land that had a tarp over it that was
1:00:15
Speaker 10: the same color of the body bag she had been
1:00:17
Speaker 10: putting patients into, and it triggered her to remember every
1:00:20
Speaker 10: one of their names and see every one of their faces.
1:00:23
Speaker 10: These are very similar stories to what I heard from
1:00:25
Speaker 10: our troops coming home from Iraq in Afghanistan, and I
1:00:27
Speaker 10: would hear Sarah, I can't go over a bridge without
1:00:30
Speaker 10: checking for an ID. I'm late everywhere I go, Sara.
1:00:33
Speaker 10: You know, I wanted to bob with my kids and
1:00:36
Speaker 10: went for a walk and my son kicked a can
1:00:38
Speaker 10: and I went ballistic, yelling the screamer because where I
1:00:40
Speaker 10: came from to kick something, you don't come home. These
1:00:43
Speaker 10: are real stories of what these experiences are causing. Also
1:00:46
Speaker 10: in our healthcare community, folks are never afraid of home
1:00:50
Speaker 10: bringing home cancer. Now they had to be concerned about
1:00:53
Speaker 10: bringing home a disease to their loved ones. And as
1:00:56
Speaker 10: you said, they were holding hands of people who were dying,
1:01:00
Speaker 10: or setting up FaceTime zoom calls for a final device.
1:01:03
Speaker 10: These were not the kind of thing that they were
1:01:05
Speaker 10: doing on a daily basis prior to COVID, So this impacted.
1:01:09
Speaker 10: But I would underline that this is not just about COVID.
1:01:14
Speaker 10: This is about the burnout and stress that our healthcare
1:01:17
Speaker 10: community is under. And I think, just like with our troops,
1:01:20
Speaker 10: we have to honor, thank and support them because they're
1:01:23
Speaker 10: doing the work that we were asked to sit in
1:01:26
Speaker 10: a driveway six feet away from each other to have
1:01:29
Speaker 10: a happy hour while they're on the front lines.
1:01:31
Speaker 1: Indeed, here is a human the name of the book
1:01:33
Speaker 1: Lessons and Resilience, Courage and Wisdom from the COVID front lines.
1:01:36
Speaker 1: I understand you, President of Barack Obama, you got the
1:01:40
Speaker 1: Volunteer Service Board for your work with post traumatic stress.
1:01:43
Speaker 1: So knowing so much about it and all of your
1:01:45
Speaker 1: work over the years, how does somebody even know if
1:01:49
Speaker 1: they have post traumatic stress?
1:01:52
Speaker 10: Well, first, it's going through a traumatic event, right. So
1:01:55
Speaker 10: the awareness that Brian, I believe that we can do
1:01:59
Speaker 10: the same same thing with post traumaunt stress that we've
1:02:01
Speaker 10: done in so many other areas. We became knowledgeable with
1:02:05
Speaker 10: educational awareness about hiva's alcohol drugs. To back up, we
1:02:09
Speaker 10: need a trauma awareness program in our country. PTSD is
1:02:14
Speaker 10: the most loosely used term because I would underline to
1:02:19
Speaker 10: you in your audience, we do not get PTSD if
1:02:22
Speaker 10: Starbucks gets our order wrong. Yet people throw that term around.
1:02:26
Speaker 9: As if it's just like PTSD for everything that's a diagnosis.
1:02:30
Speaker 9: This is a human condition. It's not a mental illness,
1:02:33
Speaker 9: and it's been around forever. Sophocles wrote two plays about
1:02:36
Speaker 9: the warrior not knowing how to act after coming home
1:02:38
Speaker 9: from battle. After the Civil War, we called it soldier's heart.
1:02:42
Speaker 9: We called it shell shock after World War One, battle
1:02:44
Speaker 9: fatigue after World War Two, and flashbacks after the Korean
1:02:47
Speaker 9: and Vietnam wars. Today we call it post traumatic stress
1:02:50
Speaker 9: disorder is a diagnosis, but you have to have post
1:02:53
Speaker 9: traumatic stress before you get to the disorder. So my
1:02:56
Speaker 9: hope and my attention is building bridges to allow a
1:03:00
Speaker 9: conversation to be normalized about this post trauma. After someone
1:03:04
Speaker 9: goes through a.
1:03:05
Speaker 10: Traumatic event, and the most common clause is an audible
1:03:07
Speaker 10: they'll accident, but.
1:03:09
Speaker 9: It can happen after natural disasters, It can happen after
1:03:13
Speaker 9: very serious situations and families that these are real events
1:03:18
Speaker 9: that take place, and emotions are meant to be felt,
1:03:21
Speaker 9: yet we as human beings do everything we can to
1:03:23
Speaker 9: hide our emotions.
1:03:25
Speaker 1: True. Now, the way you have presented the materials, you
1:03:29
Speaker 1: let the frontline workers tell their stories rather than reward
1:03:33
Speaker 1: them or summarize them or otherwise rework them. It is
1:03:36
Speaker 1: the point of that to help individuals out here reading
1:03:39
Speaker 1: the book and who may be dealing with these issues,
1:03:40
Speaker 1: whether it's because they're a frontline worker or because they
1:03:43
Speaker 1: were in the military or experience stress to some level
1:03:45
Speaker 1: to cause this problem. Is that for a relatable so
1:03:48
Speaker 1: they can say, oh, yeah, I'm not alone, this is
1:03:50
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm feeling right now. Because that's where you
1:03:53
Speaker 1: get the connection where it's like a support group. You
1:03:57
Speaker 1: can take some comfort knowing you're not the only one
1:03:59
Speaker 1: of the world experiencing this.
1:04:01
Speaker 9: Yeah, thanks Brian for making that point. Right.
1:04:04
Speaker 10: Validation and permission is taking place when someone else here
1:04:08
Speaker 10: is if you tell me your story, you validate and
1:04:11
Speaker 10: give me permission to tell me tell you my story.
1:04:14
Speaker 10: And when I tell you. We each share our stories.
1:04:17
Speaker 10: There's a validation of our feelings that's taking place, so
1:04:19
Speaker 10: we don't feel like we're on an island. I like
1:04:22
Speaker 10: to use this analogy when I present, I asked the
1:04:25
Speaker 10: audience to imagine that I'm holding a big balloon.
1:04:28
Speaker 9: Over my head full of air. How do I get
1:04:29
Speaker 9: the air out? I can take a pin and poppet
1:04:31
Speaker 9: I get the air out, but I don't have a balloon.
1:04:32
Speaker 10: I can let it go.
1:04:33
Speaker 9: It flies all over the room, it goes out the door.
1:04:35
Speaker 9: We don't know what happened to the balloon. But if
1:04:37
Speaker 9: we're patient and willing to listen to sounds we do
1:04:39
Speaker 9: not want to hear, and it may hurt our ears
1:04:42
Speaker 9: that sound as we turn it upside down and let
1:04:44
Speaker 9: it alone, the air out of time screeching noise, but
1:04:47
Speaker 9: eventually get all the air out, it can have a
1:04:50
Speaker 9: full balloon we can use again one day. That's us
1:04:52
Speaker 9: with trauma. We need to get the ear out of
1:04:54
Speaker 9: our balloons and share what we're experiencing. I don't mean
1:04:58
Speaker 9: that we get up in front of our moons in
1:05:00
Speaker 9: front of a hundred people. Have one or two people
1:05:02
Speaker 9: in your life that you're able to have a conversation
1:05:06
Speaker 9: that you trust them to allow you to get the
1:05:10
Speaker 9: air out of zero belonging.
1:05:11
Speaker 1: So this book is written for anyone who's maybe experiencing it,
1:05:14
Speaker 1: but also for loved one so they can help their
1:05:17
Speaker 1: loved one who has post traumatic stress cope. Correct.
1:05:21
Speaker 9: Yes, the post amount of trust does not only come
1:05:24
Speaker 9: to the individual that's experiencing it. Emotional shrapnel comes to
1:05:29
Speaker 9: friends and family. And so having a working knowledge, having
1:05:33
Speaker 9: an understanding, and hearing other stories to understand because I've
1:05:36
Speaker 9: had nurses say my family says to me, well you
1:05:39
Speaker 9: should be able to handle it. You've been a nurse
1:05:40
Speaker 9: for twenty years. Well that's not the way it works.
1:05:43
Speaker 9: And I think that normalizing this conversation, allowing folks to
1:05:48
Speaker 9: have the conversation doing what we're doing right here by
1:05:52
Speaker 9: folks in the media putting it out more and more,
1:05:55
Speaker 9: because think about this blind we have moved the bar
1:05:57
Speaker 9: in a lot of ways. Think of the Simon bio situation.
1:06:01
Speaker 9: Had some own Biles two or three Olympics ago made
1:06:05
Speaker 9: that decision, she would have been vilified for being unpatriotic.
1:06:09
Speaker 9: And yet we became have become more knowledgeable and understand
1:06:13
Speaker 9: that a young woman doing twirls at twelve to fifteen
1:06:19
Speaker 9: feet in the year. She has to have everything going
1:06:23
Speaker 9: exactly right. And if she is saying it cannot work
1:06:26
Speaker 9: because I'm having an emotional or a psychological episode, that
1:06:30
Speaker 9: this twisties that we all came to learn, that's a
1:06:33
Speaker 9: moving of the bar. We're becoming more knowledgeable about what
1:06:36
Speaker 9: takes place in our society well.
1:06:38
Speaker 1: Bob Delaney, authors author of Heroes Are Human. I can
1:06:42
Speaker 1: only imagine that folks with post traumatic stress probably pretty
1:06:46
Speaker 1: high on the spectrum in terms of substance abuse. You know,
1:06:49
Speaker 1: it's a coping mechanism, sometimes self medication to make the
1:06:52
Speaker 1: old pain go away. Have you found that in your
1:06:55
Speaker 1: work with post traumatic stress victims.
1:06:59
Speaker 9: Yeah, the behaviors right, just as you said, drinking, drugs
1:07:03
Speaker 9: or sex addictions. You can go on and on with
1:07:06
Speaker 9: a variety of addictions that draw people to be trying
1:07:09
Speaker 9: to push away and forget what they're experiencing, and that
1:07:14
Speaker 9: hurt people, hurt people, and so the more that we're
1:07:17
Speaker 9: able to understand what's taking place, I think the better
1:07:21
Speaker 9: we will with interacting with it.
1:07:24
Speaker 1: Bob Blaney, It's been a genuine pleasure talking with you.
1:07:27
Speaker 1: I'll recommend my listeners get over to my blog page
1:07:29
Speaker 1: fifty five carec dot com get a copy of Heroes
1:07:31
Speaker 1: or Human Lessons and Resilience, Courage, Wisdom from the COVID Frontlines.
1:07:34
Speaker 1: Kimberly Ellis, We're going to talk about her new book.
1:07:36
Speaker 1: She's a researcher and runnerund family issues and has worked
1:07:39
Speaker 1: as a policy advisor for the past nine years. She's
1:07:41
Speaker 1: written for great outlets The Federalists, town Hall, Life Site, News,
1:07:46
Speaker 1: EPOC Times, Daily Signal, as well as others. She was
1:07:48
Speaker 1: featured on the Tucker Carlson Program Tucker Carlson Today last year.
1:07:52
Speaker 1: Also spoken at the United Nations and other venues all
1:07:54
Speaker 1: around the country. Graduate from Brighamam University with a degree
1:07:57
Speaker 1: in English. Welcome to the program, Kimberly Ellis, who's here
1:08:01
Speaker 1: to talk about her new book, The Invincible Family. Why
1:08:04
Speaker 1: the global campaign to crush motherhood and fatherhood can't win. Kimberly,
1:08:07
Speaker 1: It's great to have you on the fifty five Carcene
1:08:09
Speaker 1: Morning Show.
1:08:11
Speaker 11: Thank you, thank you for having me.
1:08:13
Speaker 1: And I mentioned Joe Mobley with good reason. I just
1:08:15
Speaker 1: got off the phone with him and I mentioned he
1:08:17
Speaker 1: is a black man and very conservative, and we talked
1:08:19
Speaker 1: about education, and I gave my parents, as I have
1:08:23
Speaker 1: many times over the years and I have my entire life,
1:08:26
Speaker 1: the just the utmost thanks for my education. I said,
1:08:30
Speaker 1: it's the second greatest guess they gave me after life.
1:08:33
Speaker 1: It allows me the freedom to, you know, defend for myself,
1:08:35
Speaker 1: provide for my family. And it was, but I said,
1:08:39
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have happened. I don't believe without my mom
1:08:41
Speaker 1: and dad both taking a keen interest in my success
1:08:44
Speaker 1: in education. The destruction of the family, of the of
1:08:48
Speaker 1: the Nuclear family is obvious. And Joe agreed with me that, yeah,
1:08:52
Speaker 1: the leftists are all out to tear down the Nuclear family.
1:08:55
Speaker 1: Is that why you wrote the book?
1:08:59
Speaker 11: Yes, exactly why I wrote the book. And I became
1:09:03
Speaker 11: involved with an organization that was working at the global level,
1:09:06
Speaker 11: actually at the United Nations level, and I quickly came
1:09:09
Speaker 11: to see that there is an all out attack on
1:09:12
Speaker 11: the family. It's not just something that has naturally happened
1:09:15
Speaker 11: over time. I mean, there's been some of that, but
1:09:17
Speaker 11: there are people and forces at work globally that want
1:09:21
Speaker 11: to disband the family. They see it as an evil
1:09:24
Speaker 11: institution and one that threatens their power, and so they're
1:09:27
Speaker 11: working actively to tear it down.
1:09:30
Speaker 1: Well, it's evil because it does threaten their power. And
1:09:33
Speaker 1: we evil parents get to influence the hearts and minds
1:09:35
Speaker 1: of our young people, and gee, maybe we want to
1:09:38
Speaker 1: raise them in a way that's inconsistent with their leftist,
1:09:41
Speaker 1: government controlled ideology. I have to ask you this the
1:09:45
Speaker 1: name of the book, The Invincible Family. Why the global
1:09:47
Speaker 1: campaign to crush motherhood and fatherhood can't win? Is is
1:09:50
Speaker 1: that a plea, oh my god, it can't win, or
1:09:54
Speaker 1: is it a conclusion that no, it can't win.
1:09:59
Speaker 11: It's a declar that it can't win. And I'll tell
1:10:02
Speaker 11: you why. Because the family predates the state. The family
1:10:06
Speaker 11: is based in our very anatomy, as designed I believe
1:10:10
Speaker 11: by God. And so children are born into families.
1:10:14
Speaker 12: They're not born into the state.
1:10:16
Speaker 11: They don't belong to the state. They inherently belong to
1:10:20
Speaker 11: their families. And that is unchangeable. And so we can
1:10:24
Speaker 11: damage the family, we can reject the family, but in
1:10:26
Speaker 11: the end, the family is the thing that will always
1:10:29
Speaker 11: rise again.
1:10:30
Speaker 13: And ultimately the family.
1:10:32
Speaker 11: Is the thing that has the most power on an
1:10:35
Speaker 11: individual level, which then radiates out through society. So really,
1:10:40
Speaker 11: in a long term, it's a hopeful message that the
1:10:43
Speaker 11: family is already designed to triumph.
1:10:46
Speaker 1: Well, we've seen that. That was one of the great
1:10:48
Speaker 1: things that came out of COVID Kimberly, is that parents
1:10:50
Speaker 1: started paying attention to what their children were being taught,
1:10:53
Speaker 1: and they started showing up at school board meetings, and
1:10:55
Speaker 1: they started demanding some change along the lines of, you know,
1:11:00
Speaker 1: additional educational methodologies like, for example, let's teach our kids
1:11:05
Speaker 1: phonics so they learn how to read now, or let's
1:11:07
Speaker 1: get a critical get rid of critical race theory because
1:11:10
Speaker 1: you know, it demonizes white people and tells this our
1:11:12
Speaker 1: entire society is worthless and irredeemable. That was a beautiful
1:11:17
Speaker 1: thing to see. And that is an illustration of exactly
1:11:19
Speaker 1: what you wrote about in the book, isn't it.
1:11:23
Speaker 9: It is?
1:11:23
Speaker 11: And I think once parents realize the power that they have,
1:11:26
Speaker 11: I mean, that's one of the reasons why I wrote
1:11:28
Speaker 11: the book. I wanted to cut the legs out from
1:11:30
Speaker 11: under the global efforts to undercut the family. I don't
1:11:32
Speaker 11: want to do that by arming parents with the knowledge
1:11:35
Speaker 11: about their power that they already have. It Like, there's
1:11:38
Speaker 11: not a lot of other laws that need to be
1:11:40
Speaker 11: in place or whatever, like we as parents already inherently
1:11:44
Speaker 11: have the power to direct the world and our families
1:11:47
Speaker 11: the way that we need to. And yeah, it's a
1:11:51
Speaker 11: beautiful thing to see people kind of realizing that and
1:11:53
Speaker 11: just standing.
1:11:54
Speaker 12: Up, because most parents don't.
1:11:55
Speaker 11: They don't send their kids to school to learn about
1:11:58
Speaker 11: how to be an activist, you know. They send their
1:12:00
Speaker 11: kids to school to learn about history and the world
1:12:04
Speaker 11: and to learn skills that are going to take them
1:12:06
Speaker 11: forward and to understand history so that they don't repeat
1:12:09
Speaker 11: its mistakes. And we've gone so far from that, and
1:12:12
Speaker 11: it's time to reclaim our kids' education.
1:12:15
Speaker 1: The name of the book, The Invincible Family, Why the
1:12:17
Speaker 1: Global campaign to Crushed Motherhood and Fatherhood Camp win by
1:12:19
Speaker 1: my guest today, Kimberly Ellis. I am sure I know
1:12:22
Speaker 1: that you, like so many people, view this whole gender
1:12:26
Speaker 1: pronoun and discussions of gender ideology and the trans movement,
1:12:31
Speaker 1: and in invading our classrooms, our libraries, almost every aspect
1:12:35
Speaker 1: of our society, sports included in order to discuss those concepts,
1:12:40
Speaker 1: and this always frightens me. Very young people must also
1:12:46
Speaker 1: learn about specific sexual proclivities that any one underlying group has.
1:12:51
Speaker 1: This isn't just other people in the world exist. We
1:12:53
Speaker 1: don't want to have a conversation about sexual acts. But
1:12:56
Speaker 1: when you start diving down to any individual letter, quite
1:12:59
Speaker 1: often that letter is a reflection of something nothing other
1:13:02
Speaker 1: than their sexual proclivities. We don't need that in our
1:13:05
Speaker 1: children's education, particularly young people. This is it's some people
1:13:09
Speaker 1: call it grooming.
1:13:11
Speaker 11: Your take on that, right, well, it's very disturbing. And
1:13:15
Speaker 11: this is one of the things that brought me to
1:13:16
Speaker 11: the agenda, that brought me to the table to address
1:13:20
Speaker 11: these things publicly, is that I found some information about
1:13:23
Speaker 11: the children's sexual rights movement, which I didn't know that
1:13:26
Speaker 11: even existed, And when I found out that it did,
1:13:29
Speaker 11: and that it was highly funded and very organized, and
1:13:31
Speaker 11: that it was being pushed through our schools, mainly through
1:13:34
Speaker 11: comprehensive sexuality education programs, I just thought parents have got
1:13:39
Speaker 11: to understand this. And a lot of people, I think
1:13:42
Speaker 11: some of us, were so good hearted. We don't want
1:13:44
Speaker 11: to believe, perhaps that other people would foist these kind
1:13:48
Speaker 11: of things upon children, But the fact is it's happening,
1:13:52
Speaker 11: and as you said, in the past couple of years,
1:13:54
Speaker 11: it's become quite obvious that it's happening. And just as
1:13:58
Speaker 11: one example of the philosoph This is one of the
1:14:00
Speaker 11: original statements that I found that disturbed me. This is
1:14:04
Speaker 11: from a publication by International Planned Parent Confederation. It says,
1:14:08
Speaker 11: sexuality and sexual pleasure important parts of being human for everyone,
1:14:12
Speaker 11: no matter what age, no matter if you're married or not,
1:14:14
Speaker 11: no matter if you want to have children or not.
1:14:16
Speaker 11: Governments and leaders have a duty to respect and fulfill
1:14:19
Speaker 11: all sexual rights for everyone. That's the philosophy. That's the
1:14:24
Speaker 11: philosophy behind these sexuality programs, and to me, that's insidious.
1:14:29
Speaker 11: That's teaching our children that sex is just one a
1:14:33
Speaker 11: fun activity to have. It has nothing to do with
1:14:35
Speaker 11: creating life, has nothing to do with family formation, and
1:14:38
Speaker 11: that is that erodes our children at the soul of
1:14:42
Speaker 11: their character and what they should be seeking for in life.
1:14:45
Speaker 1: Well, I know you're right about this in your book
1:14:46
Speaker 1: The Invisible Family. What your parents know about the quote
1:14:49
Speaker 1: unquote teaching sexual consent curriculum Kimberly, Well.
1:14:55
Speaker 11: Oftentimes that's presented is, oh, this is a wonderful curriculum.
1:14:58
Speaker 11: It teaches about consent. Parents what they think when they
1:15:02
Speaker 11: hear that is, oh, good, they're going to teach my
1:15:04
Speaker 11: daughter refusal skills. Of how to say no to sexual
1:15:08
Speaker 11: advances that she does not want, which would be a
1:15:11
Speaker 11: beautiful thing. But more often than not, what is being
1:15:15
Speaker 11: taught is the concept of consent, both positive and negative,
1:15:18
Speaker 11: with an emphasis on positive.
1:15:20
Speaker 13: In other words, teaching kids.
1:15:21
Speaker 11: How to say yes to sex, how to let their
1:15:25
Speaker 11: partners know that yes, they want this to continue. And
1:15:28
Speaker 11: you know, like one good example that I thought in
1:15:32
Speaker 11: curriculum was it proposed to kids that they should use
1:15:35
Speaker 11: the clear statements like can I take your shirt off?
1:15:39
Speaker 11: That's not that's not what parents are looking for when
1:15:42
Speaker 11: they're told that the programs are going to teach their
1:15:45
Speaker 11: kids consent. And there's a lot of other really horrid
1:15:49
Speaker 11: examples of you know, kids in their parents' basement discussing
1:15:53
Speaker 11: whether or not they're going to go ahead with sexual activity.
1:15:55
Speaker 11: That's Those are the kind of scenarios that are in
1:15:58
Speaker 11: a lot of these comprehensive sexual education program So you
1:16:01
Speaker 11: have to be really careful and listen to the language
1:16:03
Speaker 11: and then investigate what that actually means. Consent sounds good,
1:16:07
Speaker 11: but it can also.
1:16:07
Speaker 12: Be very bad.
1:16:08
Speaker 1: It can, and the whole idea these discussions involve what
1:16:11
Speaker 1: I would argue are adult activity. Now granted, will have
1:16:14
Speaker 1: a lot of high school kids experimenting with sex. Been
1:16:16
Speaker 1: a problem since the Donna mankind. But when you're talking
1:16:18
Speaker 1: about pre you know, K through three, third grade, fourth grade,
1:16:21
Speaker 1: fifth grade, sixth grade, totally unnecessary to have discussions about this.
1:16:25
Speaker 1: But when you do, and when you talk about all
1:16:28
Speaker 1: the sexual activity, this is something adults do, I mean
1:16:31
Speaker 1: everything is the minute you tell a child they're not
1:16:33
Speaker 1: supposed to do it, this is an area that they
1:16:34
Speaker 1: shouldn't be dabbling in, that's exactly what they want to do,
1:16:37
Speaker 1: which opens the door for some creepy pedophile to say, hey,
1:16:40
Speaker 1: you know, this is what adults do. You interested in
1:16:43
Speaker 1: growing up quickly? And that's often an incentive for children,
1:16:46
Speaker 1: sort of an active rebellion.
1:16:49
Speaker 7: Rights.
1:16:50
Speaker 11: It's the stage for that. And as adults, as grown
1:16:53
Speaker 11: ups and parents, our role is and has always been
1:16:57
Speaker 11: to protect the innocence of our children, lead them down
1:17:01
Speaker 11: the path of adult behaviors and things that they will
1:17:03
Speaker 11: inevitably come in contact with later. Our job is to
1:17:06
Speaker 11: guard their innocence and let them grow up and have
1:17:09
Speaker 11: a normal and beautiful childhood before they're bombarded with all
1:17:12
Speaker 11: these things.
1:17:13
Speaker 14: We shouldn't be the.
1:17:13
Speaker 11: Ones and our schools should definitely not be the ones
1:17:16
Speaker 11: who are bombarding our children with sexual content.
1:17:18
Speaker 1: Well, I think I'm on safe grounds concluding that you
1:17:21
Speaker 1: are an advocate for school choice and allowing parents to
1:17:25
Speaker 1: get their children into any form of education that might
1:17:27
Speaker 1: allow them to escape this type of indoctrination.
1:17:32
Speaker 11: Well, I am in favor of parents taking control of
1:17:35
Speaker 11: their education and directing where their children go to school
1:17:39
Speaker 11: or if they're homeschools. I see some global connections to
1:17:42
Speaker 11: some of the school choice efforts that concern me, which
1:17:44
Speaker 11: I address that in the book. Some of the global
1:17:47
Speaker 11: education entities in ESCO and people connected to that are
1:17:51
Speaker 11: pushing certain school choice efforts, which makes me concerned about
1:17:55
Speaker 11: what their intentions might be. So again, that's something you
1:17:57
Speaker 11: have to be really careful about. However, parents deciding hey
1:18:01
Speaker 11: I'm not okay with this school, I'm going to make
1:18:03
Speaker 11: a change, of course, I'm all in favor of that.
1:18:06
Speaker 1: Kimberly, Well, I know you offer a lot of suggestions
1:18:10
Speaker 1: for the readers of your book The Invincible Family and
1:18:12
Speaker 1: how they can fight back against the woke curriculum. I'll
1:18:14
Speaker 1: just use that as a term to sum up everything
1:18:16
Speaker 1: we're talking about here. But what are the essential actions
1:18:19
Speaker 1: parents and policymakers can take to deal with this, most
1:18:23
Speaker 1: notably fighting children So they're fighting this children's sexual rights movement,
1:18:26
Speaker 1: or perhaps fighting against this anti americanism that's being taught
1:18:31
Speaker 1: in schools.
1:18:33
Speaker 11: Well, I think we need to take responsibility for teaching
1:18:35
Speaker 11: our kids. The first and foremost and most important thing
1:18:38
Speaker 11: that we need to do is we need to consistently
1:18:40
Speaker 11: teach in our families and to our children about what
1:18:43
Speaker 11: we believe about marriage, family, gender and sex and the
1:18:48
Speaker 11: value of human life like these are discussions that we
1:18:51
Speaker 11: need to have. I think for too long we've assumed
1:18:54
Speaker 11: that the school is going to teach our kids that
1:18:56
Speaker 11: they need to know.
1:18:57
Speaker 8: It has to be us.
1:18:58
Speaker 11: It has to be us teaching what we believe is right,
1:19:01
Speaker 11: not what is politically correct, what we believe is correct,
1:19:05
Speaker 11: and you know what, our children will will believe us
1:19:07
Speaker 11: for the most part. And so we have to take
1:19:10
Speaker 11: the rings on that we need to have a regular
1:19:12
Speaker 11: conversations with our kids about these really foundational issues and
1:19:16
Speaker 11: to not be afraid of doing that. And then, of course,
1:19:19
Speaker 11: second secondarily, we need to do everything within our power
1:19:23
Speaker 11: to keep children's sexual rights advocates out of our schools.
1:19:27
Speaker 11: Planned parenthood for sure should never be in a school.
1:19:31
Speaker 11: You know, we've got to take action politically and locally
1:19:35
Speaker 11: to keep those kind of influences out of our schools.
1:19:38
Speaker 1: Well, the fifty five CARC Morning Show audience right now
1:19:40
Speaker 1: screaming at the radius, going hell yeah, you tell them, Kimberly,
1:19:44
Speaker 1: pre K is one more thing for we part company.
1:19:46
Speaker 1: And I will let you know that your book, The
1:19:48
Speaker 1: Invincible Family, White Global Campaign to Crushed Motherhood and Fatherhood
1:19:51
Speaker 1: Can't Win, will be on my blog page fifty five
1:19:53
Speaker 1: cars dot com so people can easily get a copy.
1:19:55
Speaker 1: I will encourage everyone to get a copy and share
1:19:57
Speaker 1: it with anybody out there who is in a bos
1:20:00
Speaker 1: to guide their children's education. But this push and Biden
1:20:03
Speaker 1: brought it up in the State of the Union push
1:20:04
Speaker 1: for pre K. They want, I mean suffer the little
1:20:07
Speaker 1: children to come unto me, they want to indoctrinate them
1:20:09
Speaker 1: from an earlier and earlier age, taking away parents' ability
1:20:12
Speaker 1: to full mold and form their children's lives in the
1:20:16
Speaker 1: manner in which they see appropriate. That is that's scary
1:20:19
Speaker 1: to me. That is really scary to me that people
1:20:22
Speaker 1: embrace this like well, I'll be able to go to work.
1:20:24
Speaker 1: My kids are going to be basic in babysitting class. No,
1:20:26
Speaker 1: they're going to be an indoctrination camp.
1:20:29
Speaker 4: Right.
1:20:29
Speaker 11: This is one of the things that I've seen just
1:20:31
Speaker 11: in the last month that alarms me the most is
1:20:34
Speaker 11: the Biden Administration's new plan. What they call it, it's
1:20:37
Speaker 11: the US Global Plan for Women's Economic Security. What it
1:20:41
Speaker 11: is at its core is getting little children away from
1:20:43
Speaker 11: their mothers and into state care or other care as
1:20:46
Speaker 11: early as possible. That concerns me. I understand we all
1:20:51
Speaker 11: have different circumstances. We need to utilize childcare at some
1:20:54
Speaker 11: point in their lives. But if the core of the
1:20:57
Speaker 11: objective is to get little children away from their mother
1:21:00
Speaker 11: that's wrong. That's wrong because little children need their mothers
1:21:04
Speaker 11: and fathers when they are young the most. Because the
1:21:06
Speaker 11: person who teaches a child when they're little is the
1:21:09
Speaker 11: one who has the greatest influence upon them for the
1:21:11
Speaker 11: rest of their life. We need to never give that up,
1:21:13
Speaker 11: especially not to the state.
1:21:15
Speaker 1: Amen, kimberly Ls, you're speaking my language, the invisible family.
1:21:19
Speaker 1: Why the global campaign crushed motherhood and fatherhood can't win
1:21:21
Speaker 1: definitive statement. I can't thank you enough for writing the book.
1:21:24
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for the time you spoke
1:21:26
Speaker 1: my listeners and me, and again, I'll encourage my listeners
1:21:28
Speaker 1: to get a copy of the book and share the
1:21:30
Speaker 1: love with friends. Kimberly a real pleasure. Keep doing the
1:21:32
Speaker 1: great work. Box Station a thirty one fifty five KRCD
1:21:38
Speaker 1: talk station. Happy for Friday. They've got some good plans
1:21:42
Speaker 1: for the weekend. Looks like the weather's going to cooperate
1:21:44
Speaker 1: for a change. No thunderstorms predictive over the weekend. And
1:21:47
Speaker 1: in an effort to fight back against what the National
1:21:49
Speaker 1: Teachers This Are Education Association wants your children to look
1:21:52
Speaker 1: at in grades K through six, I suppose I am
1:21:56
Speaker 1: happy to welcome to the fifty five KRC Morning Show.
1:21:59
Speaker 1: Michelle Hout's local author and a speaker as well. You're
1:22:02
Speaker 1: still award winning. She's the author of a dozen or
1:22:04
Speaker 1: so books for young readers, and they go from picture
1:22:07
Speaker 1: books to middle grade novels. Michelle, Welcome to the fifty
1:22:10
Speaker 1: five KRC Morning Show. It's great to have you on today.
1:22:13
Speaker 12: Good morning.
1:22:14
Speaker 1: I don't see any title in here like Heather has
1:22:17
Speaker 1: Two Mommies or anything like that. See looks like light
1:22:20
Speaker 1: fair for children that will maybe inspire them to be readers.
1:22:24
Speaker 1: And I got to be honest with you, Michelle, I
1:22:27
Speaker 1: just was amazed my son and daughter. We both read
1:22:30
Speaker 1: to them a lot when they were little, and their
1:22:32
Speaker 1: ability to pick up and learn to read at a
1:22:35
Speaker 1: very young age was just sort of mind blowing. It's
1:22:38
Speaker 1: children are just like sponges, and if you sit down
1:22:40
Speaker 1: with them on your lap and you go through a
1:22:42
Speaker 1: picture book and you read it, it's in virtually no time,
1:22:46
Speaker 1: they're picking it up themselves. And I just and both
1:22:48
Speaker 1: of my children have been voracious readers and reading it
1:22:52
Speaker 1: levels way beyond their years. I think because of that
1:22:55
Speaker 1: really early involvement with reading.
1:22:59
Speaker 12: Oh definitely. I mean, studies have shown that children who
1:23:01
Speaker 12: are read to are definitely better readers, especially in the
1:23:05
Speaker 12: early ages, in early elementary grades. They just pick up
1:23:09
Speaker 12: on words and sounds and putting that together into sentences
1:23:13
Speaker 12: so much easier if they've been exposed to literature at home.
1:23:16
Speaker 12: But I do think it's really important for all kids
1:23:19
Speaker 12: to read diversely, to read about cultures other than our
1:23:24
Speaker 12: own than what we see around us, too. And that's
1:23:27
Speaker 12: one thing that I'm really happy that the books I've
1:23:29
Speaker 12: written have been able to show and rural Ohio kid,
1:23:34
Speaker 12: you know, maybe what it's like to hike the Appalation
1:23:37
Speaker 12: Trail because the Appalation Trail doesn't even.
1:23:39
Speaker 11: Go through Ohio.
1:23:40
Speaker 1: So true.
1:23:41
Speaker 4: How would we know what it's.
1:23:42
Speaker 12: Like in Georgia or Maine if we didn't see it
1:23:45
Speaker 12: in picture books and read other people's amazing stories.
1:23:49
Speaker 1: Well, that's the beauty of reading itself. I mean, I've
1:23:52
Speaker 1: been a voracious reader my whole life too, and you
1:23:55
Speaker 1: do learn so much about the world and of course
1:23:57
Speaker 1: different cultures, different periods of history as well. Huge fan like,
1:24:01
Speaker 1: for example, the works of Dostoievsky, and you really have
1:24:03
Speaker 1: to immerse yourself and what it was like to be
1:24:05
Speaker 1: in Russia in those times when they had such, you know,
1:24:08
Speaker 1: sort of weird social rules and protocols. And I don't know,
1:24:11
Speaker 1: I just find it absolutely fascinating. And getting kids reading
1:24:15
Speaker 1: early about these different topics is of course a wonderful thing,
1:24:17
Speaker 1: and it's a great opportunity to spend some bonding time
1:24:20
Speaker 1: with your children. Let's talk about your it looks like
1:24:23
Speaker 1: your newest book, give my listeners an illustration of what
1:24:26
Speaker 1: you write. And speaking of illustrators, the illustrator you work
1:24:28
Speaker 1: with regularly, you need to mention her as well. Hopefully
1:24:31
Speaker 1: the scarecrow tell us about that.
1:24:34
Speaker 12: Well, hopefully the scarecrow is so important to me because
1:24:39
Speaker 12: in children's books, especially picture books, we kind of have
1:24:42
Speaker 12: a rule that your main character has to be active
1:24:46
Speaker 12: and solve his own problems and have agency. And you know,
1:24:49
Speaker 12: you can't have a parent swoop in and solve the
1:24:52
Speaker 12: problem for the child, because that's how young children learn
1:24:55
Speaker 12: to navigate the world around us. And so hopefully the
1:24:58
Speaker 12: scarecrow has a scarecrow, and who is more helpless than
1:25:04
Speaker 12: a scarecrow. He's stuck arms out in the weather, he
1:25:08
Speaker 12: can't move, he can't speak, And so there was a
1:25:12
Speaker 12: purpose for having such an inactive main character, and that
1:25:16
Speaker 12: is that. I've been working with children in schools for
1:25:20
Speaker 12: over twenty years, and the biggest change from when I
1:25:24
Speaker 12: started to when I left the schools to rite full
1:25:27
Speaker 12: time with a number of children being raised by somebody
1:25:30
Speaker 12: other than one of their two parents. So lots of
1:25:33
Speaker 12: grandparents raising kids, lots of children who have had adults
1:25:37
Speaker 12: in their lives who've let them down. Kids they're only
1:25:40
Speaker 12: six or seven years old. So I wanted to you
1:25:43
Speaker 12: can't write heavy stuff like that in a picture book.
1:25:46
Speaker 12: You can in a middle grade novel, and we don't
1:25:48
Speaker 12: shy away from those tough subjects that kids, excuse me,
1:25:53
Speaker 12: go through in a middle grade novel. But in a
1:25:55
Speaker 12: picture book you have to kind of make an animal
1:25:59
Speaker 12: or an inanimate object be the child. And so that's
1:26:02
Speaker 12: what I did with Hopefully. The scarecrow. He's in the
1:26:05
Speaker 12: garden and he's exposed to the elements, and when he
1:26:08
Speaker 12: loses hope, all he really has is his own thoughts,
1:26:12
Speaker 12: so you know, those thoughts of bravery, of sticking it out,
1:26:16
Speaker 12: of perseverance. So I hope that young children who are
1:26:20
Speaker 12: going through tough times see it themselves in Hopefully and
1:26:24
Speaker 12: know that hope is a strong and powerful emotion that
1:26:27
Speaker 12: can get you through when even the people you count
1:26:30
Speaker 12: on in life have let you down.
1:26:31
Speaker 1: Isn't that true? And that book is on pre order
1:26:34
Speaker 1: right now. It's going to be released apparently August eighth.
1:26:38
Speaker 1: Demonstrably popular your books are. The ratings on Amazon are
1:26:42
Speaker 1: just mind blowing. For example, SeaGlass Summer, which was came
1:26:44
Speaker 1: out in twenty nineteen ninety seven five star reviews. I mean,
1:26:48
Speaker 1: that's that's very impressive. The shell. Give my listeners a
1:26:54
Speaker 1: little dose of a sea Glass Summer, which is I
1:26:58
Speaker 1: believe recommend what is the recommended age for that one?
1:27:01
Speaker 1: Because these are all young people.
1:27:04
Speaker 12: Sure, most picture books are targeted for the four to
1:27:07
Speaker 12: seven year old audience. And what people don't often realize
1:27:10
Speaker 12: is that picture books aren't really meant to be read
1:27:12
Speaker 12: by children. They're meant to be read by adult teachers, parents,
1:27:16
Speaker 12: grandparents with children on their laps and in front of them.
1:27:19
Speaker 12: So picture books are a shared, multi generational experience. And
1:27:23
Speaker 12: SeaGlass Summer is a fiction picture book. And you mentioned
1:27:26
Speaker 12: illustrators a minute ago, and I think something the public
1:27:29
Speaker 12: often doesn't know is that when you're traditionally published. So
1:27:32
Speaker 12: when I say traditionally published, I mean published by Random House,
1:27:38
Speaker 12: the New York publishers, or even smaller publishers, like three
1:27:41
Speaker 12: of my books are with Ohio University Press right here
1:27:43
Speaker 12: in Ohio. But that's still traditional publishing. When you traditionally
1:27:47
Speaker 12: publish versus self published, an author of a picture book
1:27:51
Speaker 12: does not get to choose the illustrator. And so that's
1:27:55
Speaker 12: because a picture book is a marriage of art and words,
1:27:58
Speaker 12: and there was no illustrator telling me what words to use,
1:28:01
Speaker 12: so I cannot dictate how the visual aspect of the
1:28:05
Speaker 12: story is told. That's the illustrator's job. So Sea Glass
1:28:09
Speaker 12: Summer is published by Kendlewick Press in Boston. And when
1:28:14
Speaker 12: they told me that a man named Bagram Batarine from Russia,
1:28:18
Speaker 12: a Russian American, he's been in America for ten years.
1:28:23
Speaker 12: But fine art illustrations, somebody I could never first of
1:28:27
Speaker 12: all reach nor afford as if I were hiring my
1:28:31
Speaker 12: own illustrators. The pictures in SeaGlass Summer are like museum worthy. Yeh,
1:28:37
Speaker 12: fine arts illustration, and they are just I'm looking.
1:28:41
Speaker 1: At them right now because you can look inside on Amazon.
1:28:43
Speaker 1: As everybody knows, you click on the link and look inside. Yeah,
1:28:46
Speaker 1: absolutely beautiful works in there. There is no question about
1:28:49
Speaker 1: it looks like water color. They're they're just they're just fantastic.
1:28:53
Speaker 12: It is watercolor. Yeah, And so people often ask, you know,
1:28:57
Speaker 12: so when you get the illustration, so you ever disappointed?
1:29:00
Speaker 12: And I've been so lucky, so lucky and blessed to
1:29:04
Speaker 12: have been paired with amazing illustrators from all over the US.
1:29:08
Speaker 12: And I've only met maybe one or two of them.
1:29:12
Speaker 12: They usually keep those two creators separate, especially during the
1:29:17
Speaker 12: creative process.
1:29:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so weird to me that you're the
1:29:20
Speaker 1: author of the words and the vision for the book,
1:29:22
Speaker 1: that you don't have any control over who does the illustration.
1:29:25
Speaker 1: It just seems like a foreign concept. But this is
1:29:27
Speaker 1: how life works, and it certainly worked out really well
1:29:30
Speaker 1: with you and these books. Let's pivot over because in
1:29:33
Speaker 1: addition to children's book, you wrote Count the Wings, the
1:29:36
Speaker 1: Life and Art of Charlie Harper. Now, if people don't
1:29:38
Speaker 1: immediately remember who Charlie Harper is, go to Google and
1:29:41
Speaker 1: type in Charlie Harper and then click images. Everybody knows
1:29:46
Speaker 1: this artist work. And honestly, Michelle, I think we have
1:29:49
Speaker 1: probably six or eight Charlie Harper puzzles in our house.
1:29:52
Speaker 1: I mean, these things are fantastic illustrations.
1:29:55
Speaker 12: Yes, so I was so lucky. This is Charlie Harp
1:30:00
Speaker 12: for book and Camy on first. I don't know if
1:30:02
Speaker 12: we'll have time to talk about Dotti Kimichick, but both
1:30:05
Speaker 12: of those are actually still children's books. They're part of
1:30:08
Speaker 12: the Biographies for Young Readers series from Ohio University Press,
1:30:12
Speaker 12: and that series set out to tell the story of
1:30:15
Speaker 12: amazing Ohioans that maybe kids don't know their stories. And
1:30:19
Speaker 12: when I say kids were talking the eight to fourteen
1:30:21
Speaker 12: year old readers here. And so, you know, Ohio has
1:30:25
Speaker 12: all these great astronauts and presidents, former presidents, and their
1:30:30
Speaker 12: stories are told over and over again.
1:30:32
Speaker 4: But we went on the.
1:30:32
Speaker 12: Search at Ohio University Press for some really amazing stories
1:30:37
Speaker 12: and we found Charlie Harper. Never had a biography written
1:30:43
Speaker 12: about him for the young reader. His art, his love
1:30:47
Speaker 12: of nature. He was way ahead of his time as
1:30:50
Speaker 12: far as protecting the environment.
1:30:52
Speaker 11: He was just and his so almost all of his
1:30:56
Speaker 11: art is nature art. But what makes it so special?
1:30:58
Speaker 12: And you know, if you think of that Harper cardinal,
1:31:01
Speaker 12: that red cardinal that he's so famous for, iconics really
1:31:05
Speaker 12: a teardrop and some triangles, and so he reduced everything
1:31:11
Speaker 12: into its most basic shapes and lines and colors, and
1:31:14
Speaker 12: even the youngest child can look at the most simple
1:31:18
Speaker 12: shape and say, oh that's a polar bear, Oh that's
1:31:20
Speaker 12: a cardinal. And it was so fun telling his story.
1:31:25
Speaker 12: I worked with his son, Brett Harper, right there in Cincinnati,
1:31:28
Speaker 12: and his work is some of it on public display.
1:31:33
Speaker 12: He has murals at the Duke Energy Center. He has
1:31:35
Speaker 12: the zoo barn with the animals.
1:31:38
Speaker 1: All over it.
1:31:39
Speaker 12: There's a big mural of two hummingbirds on the side
1:31:42
Speaker 12: of a building, and I can't remember where that's located
1:31:44
Speaker 12: in Cincinnati, but there's a lot of public display.
1:31:48
Speaker 1: Of his work really is all over the place, And
1:31:50
Speaker 1: of course you go through the museum library, there are
1:31:52
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of opportunities to buy puzzles
1:31:54
Speaker 1: with his work on it. Those things are fantastic and
1:31:57
Speaker 1: real quick. Here we'll just a real quick moment. I'll
1:31:58
Speaker 1: take you over, just an extra thirty forty seconds. Here
1:32:01
Speaker 1: Cammi on first base. Another baseball's Dottie camon Check.
1:32:06
Speaker 12: Yes, so we all know the movie A League of
1:32:09
Speaker 12: their own and the main character, Dottie Hinson was played
1:32:11
Speaker 12: by Gina Davis. And although the director Penny Marshall stated
1:32:17
Speaker 12: many times that no character was portrayed exactly as a
1:32:22
Speaker 12: living character that really played for the All American Girls
1:32:24
Speaker 12: Professional Baseball League, everyone believes that Cincinnati's Dottie Cameron Check
1:32:28
Speaker 12: was Dottie Hinson in her leadership skills, in her playing skills.
1:32:33
Speaker 12: Stephen looks a lot like her, so it was really
1:32:36
Speaker 12: fun to tell her story. Dottie grew up in the
1:32:39
Speaker 12: Norwood area of Cincinnati, an only child of Romanian immigrants,
1:32:45
Speaker 12: and she just became the star of the Rockford Peaches,
1:32:50
Speaker 12: which was one of the All American girls baseball teams
1:32:52
Speaker 12: that played during the time that Major League Baseball was
1:32:57
Speaker 12: facing a hiatus or at least a slow down during
1:33:00
Speaker 12: World War Two.
1:33:02
Speaker 1: Well, I tell you what fascinating books. Wonderful opportunity for
1:33:05
Speaker 1: you to develop your children's learning skills and enjoy and
1:33:08
Speaker 1: learn yourself and exchange thoughts and ideas. Michelle Houtse, appreciate
1:33:12
Speaker 1: what you do, and I know you do a lot
1:33:13
Speaker 1: of speaking engagements as well. I'll turn my listeners to
1:33:16
Speaker 1: my blog page and podcast paget fifty five care Sea
1:33:19
Speaker 1: dot com. Joe's going to put a link to your
1:33:21
Speaker 1: work so they can easily get doctor Patrick Moore. And
1:33:24
Speaker 1: given the subject matter of his book we're talking about today,
1:33:26
Speaker 1: fake invisible catastrophes and threats to doom, you may be surprised,
1:33:30
Speaker 1: as I was, to find out he's a lifelong independent
1:33:32
Speaker 1: scientist and environmentalist, co founder of Greenpeace back in nineteen
1:33:36
Speaker 1: seventy one. He was a director for fifteen years, a
1:33:38
Speaker 1: leader of a whole lot of their campaigns, including ending
1:33:41
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons testing, saving the whales, and ending toxic dumping.
1:33:44
Speaker 1: In the mid nineteen eighties, apparently became disenchanted with the
1:33:47
Speaker 1: positions as fellow Greenpeace directors were adopting using misinformation, sensation,
1:33:52
Speaker 1: and fear for fundraising rather than using valid science, and
1:33:56
Speaker 1: therefore he struck out on his own trying to find
1:33:58
Speaker 1: a more sensible environmentalists and basing policies on sound science.
1:34:02
Speaker 1: Hence the book And welcome to the program, doctor Moore,
1:34:05
Speaker 1: Fake invisible catastrophes and threats to do And it's great
1:34:08
Speaker 1: to have you on the program.
1:34:10
Speaker 9: Thanks for having me on. Brian's pleasure.
1:34:12
Speaker 1: Well, it's my pleasure. Normally we have you know, sort
1:34:15
Speaker 1: of conservative, right leaning or flying in the face of
1:34:18
Speaker 1: the green philosophy, the regret of Thunbergs of the road,
1:34:22
Speaker 1: but they don't have the background you have. You spring
1:34:24
Speaker 1: from a tremendous amount of credibility because you were entrenched
1:34:27
Speaker 1: with the green peace movement and the good work, the
1:34:30
Speaker 1: arguably very legitimate work they were doing. Somewhere it took
1:34:34
Speaker 1: an off road and I guess is it all about
1:34:38
Speaker 1: the Benjamins? If I can put the term that way,
1:34:41
Speaker 1: is that the reason Greenpeace went off the rails just
1:34:43
Speaker 1: the huge amounts of money they were bringing in.
1:34:47
Speaker 9: Well, yes, we were basically hijacked by the political left
1:34:50
Speaker 9: when they realized how much fundraising there was possible in
1:34:55
Speaker 9: the environmental movement. I was on all four of the
1:34:59
Speaker 9: Save the Whales campaigns out into the Pacific Ocean, getting
1:35:02
Speaker 9: in front of the Russian harpoons and working really hard
1:35:07
Speaker 9: to get people aware of the fact that thirty thousand
1:35:09
Speaker 9: whales were being slaughtered every year over the horizon where
1:35:12
Speaker 9: no one could see it, and we stopped that back then.
1:35:16
Speaker 9: And now I find myself in a situation today where
1:35:19
Speaker 9: Greenpeace is siding with fifteen hundred giant wind turbines against
1:35:26
Speaker 9: the whales off the Atlantic coast of the United States.
1:35:29
Speaker 9: That's what I'm embroiled in right now. But I have
1:35:33
Speaker 9: written this book Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom,
1:35:37
Speaker 9: the premise of which is nearly all the scare stories today,
1:35:41
Speaker 9: whether it's about CO two or radiation or GMOs, and
1:35:46
Speaker 9: even the polar bears and coral reefs, are about things
1:35:50
Speaker 9: that are either invisible or so remote that no one
1:35:54
Speaker 9: can observe it. For themselves. No one can see carbon
1:35:57
Speaker 9: dioxide or radiation in GMOs that's bad is non existent
1:36:02
Speaker 9: because it doesn't even have a name. They just say monsanto,
1:36:06
Speaker 9: as if that's a reason for being against this important
1:36:10
Speaker 9: new way of modifying the genetics of our foods to
1:36:15
Speaker 9: get rid of bad chemicals to put better chemicals in.
1:36:19
Speaker 9: Like with the Golden rice, we can actually create rice
1:36:23
Speaker 9: that would prevent a million or more children from dying
1:36:25
Speaker 9: every year. And these guys are against it because it's genetic,
1:36:29
Speaker 9: and everything is genetic, and all of us are modified.
1:36:34
Speaker 9: None of us are exactly the same as our parents.
1:36:36
Speaker 9: We are genetically modified, and they're using this term as
1:36:39
Speaker 9: if it's something evil, when in fact it's the basis
1:36:42
Speaker 9: of evolution. So I have had a hard time with
1:36:47
Speaker 9: this over the years because I left Green Peace thirty
1:36:50
Speaker 9: years ago when they went bad, and they went bad
1:36:55
Speaker 9: when they started saying that humans are the enemies of
1:36:57
Speaker 9: the earth at a philosophical level, that's just too much
1:37:01
Speaker 9: like original sin for me. And also when the sharp
1:37:05
Speaker 9: end of the stick they my fellow directors, none of
1:37:08
Speaker 9: who had any science education, decided that we should ban
1:37:12
Speaker 9: chlorine worldwide and make a campaign out of it, and
1:37:15
Speaker 9: they nicknamed chlorine the devil's element, when in fact, chlorine
1:37:20
Speaker 9: is the most important element of all the elements for
1:37:23
Speaker 9: public health and medicine.
1:37:25
Speaker 1: It's a lifesaver. I mean, how many have you done
1:37:27
Speaker 1: any research on how many people would die from infections
1:37:30
Speaker 1: or otherwise if it weren't for chlorine, for example, in
1:37:33
Speaker 1: our water system to kill bacteria in the like.
1:37:37
Speaker 9: Yes, and that's just the beginning of it. Sodium chloride
1:37:40
Speaker 9: table salt is an essential nutrient. I mean, you don't
1:37:44
Speaker 9: want to take too much of it. It could kill
1:37:46
Speaker 9: you if you did it. Would you know, dehydrate the
1:37:49
Speaker 9: insides of your body if you drank a half a
1:37:51
Speaker 9: cup of it. But the truth is chlorine is the
1:37:57
Speaker 9: main element in many of our medicines. Eighty five percent
1:38:01
Speaker 9: of all our pharmaceuticals are made with chlorine chemistry, and
1:38:04
Speaker 9: twenty five percent have chlorine in them. If you look
1:38:07
Speaker 9: at the flu and cold remedies you might take, you'll
1:38:10
Speaker 9: see a little cl at the end of many of
1:38:13
Speaker 9: the ingredients. So they just went completely off the rails there,
1:38:18
Speaker 9: and that is when I had to quit. I quit
1:38:20
Speaker 9: in nineteen eighty six because they decided to have a
1:38:24
Speaker 9: campaign to ban chlorine, and they called TVC otherwise known
1:38:28
Speaker 9: as vinyl, the poison plastic when it is about the
1:38:31
Speaker 9: least poisonous thing in the world, they're making everybody believe
1:38:36
Speaker 9: that plastic is poisonous. That's that's why we wrap our
1:38:40
Speaker 9: food in it, because it's poisonous. No, because that's how
1:38:44
Speaker 9: we keep the food from being contaminated is by packaging
1:38:47
Speaker 9: it and wrapping it in plastic foil and putting it
1:38:54
Speaker 9: in containers. And when plastic goes in the ocean, it
1:38:58
Speaker 9: isn't actually negati it's like driftwood. Lots of species grow
1:39:03
Speaker 9: on it, and then other species eat the species that
1:39:06
Speaker 9: are growing on the plastic. And birds actually purposely give
1:39:10
Speaker 9: bits of hard plastic to their chicks in the same
1:39:13
Speaker 9: way that land birds give pebbles to their chicks when
1:39:16
Speaker 9: they're in the nest and then continue to ingest pebbles
1:39:20
Speaker 9: for the rest of their lives. There's no pebbles on
1:39:23
Speaker 9: the ocean islands where albatross and other seabirds roost, so
1:39:27
Speaker 9: they have to work really hard to get hard bits
1:39:31
Speaker 9: of material for the gizzard of the chick, and they
1:39:35
Speaker 9: use pummus, which is under sea volcanoes floating to the surface,
1:39:41
Speaker 9: little bits of it. They use bits of hard wood,
1:39:43
Speaker 9: they use big nuts from trees. When they see the
1:39:47
Speaker 9: squid to their chick, the squid goes into the gizzard,
1:39:50
Speaker 9: and the gizzard retains the beak of the squid as
1:39:54
Speaker 9: a hard object to help grind the food. Because you see,
1:39:57
Speaker 9: birds don't have teas. All the mammals have teeth pretty well,
1:40:01
Speaker 9: but birds don't, and so they have two stomachs, and
1:40:04
Speaker 9: one of them has to have hard objects in it.
1:40:07
Speaker 9: And birds purposely use plastic bits of the right size
1:40:11
Speaker 9: and shape to act as a digestive aid in the gizzard.
1:40:16
Speaker 9: And that's this is what people aren't being told. And
1:40:19
Speaker 9: even the Smithsonian Institute is publishing these pictures that are
1:40:23
Speaker 9: fake of a baby albatross sliced open, dead with like
1:40:29
Speaker 9: about two pounds of plastic in it.
1:40:31
Speaker 4: That never happens.
1:40:32
Speaker 9: They have staged these things. Go on the internet and
1:40:35
Speaker 9: look and if you want to find the Pacific garbage patch,
1:40:39
Speaker 9: which everybody thinks is twice the size of Texas, it
1:40:43
Speaker 9: does not exist. It is a phony thing. Just because
1:40:47
Speaker 9: people can't see it over the horizon. They can they
1:40:50
Speaker 9: put this they're all photoshop globs hainted on a picture
1:40:54
Speaker 9: this of the Pacific Ocean. There is no Pacific garbage
1:40:58
Speaker 9: patch choice to side as a textas and growing sixteen
1:41:01
Speaker 9: times faster than anybody imagine. That's what CNN has to
1:41:04
Speaker 9: say about it. Yeah, and they don't show the Pacific
1:41:07
Speaker 9: garbage batch. Why because it's fake. And so this is
1:41:11
Speaker 9: what I'm up against, and with the media of course
1:41:16
Speaker 9: very much on site with the scare stories.
1:41:19
Speaker 1: Clearly well, doctor Moore, I guess let us analyze. We
1:41:23
Speaker 1: have mentioning energy obviously the green alarmists or after any
1:41:28
Speaker 1: form of fossil fuel in the name of reducing carbon output. Fine,
1:41:32
Speaker 1: let's move away from that. They hate nuclear. Nuclear provides
1:41:34
Speaker 1: carbon free, abundant power, and they hate that as well.
1:41:38
Speaker 1: We can look at the XO pipeline's cancelation in the
1:41:40
Speaker 1: name of environmentalism. The oil is still coming out of
1:41:42
Speaker 1: the ground. It's going across the road in railcars, as
1:41:45
Speaker 1: opposed through a pipeline, which are far more dangerous. It
1:41:48
Speaker 1: does nothing to help the environment. In fact, it's worse
1:41:50
Speaker 1: for the environment because the trucks are belching out diesel
1:41:52
Speaker 1: or the rank or the railcars are to ship it
1:41:55
Speaker 1: where it needs to go to ultimately be consumed, which
1:41:58
Speaker 1: it will. They're going after fertile because well, fertilizers require
1:42:03
Speaker 1: natural gas reproduction, so that's bad, which will threaten the
1:42:06
Speaker 1: food security of the world. They're going after our energy security,
1:42:09
Speaker 1: They're going after our food security. They're going after human beings,
1:42:13
Speaker 1: aren't they. Is this not just a whole big ruse
1:42:15
Speaker 1: to reduce the population, because that's the final reality of
1:42:18
Speaker 1: what they're trying.
1:42:21
Speaker 9: Yeah, and if they can't figure that out, they're pretty
1:42:23
Speaker 9: stupid that this is the problem. As I said earlier,
1:42:27
Speaker 9: they basically believe that humans are the enemies of nature,
1:42:31
Speaker 9: the enemies of the earth. And so you know, this
1:42:34
Speaker 9: is way too much like original stin for me, most
1:42:37
Speaker 9: people are good. There are lots of bad people, and
1:42:40
Speaker 9: these are some of them that are preaching this idea
1:42:43
Speaker 9: that we should take away the energy that runs our
1:42:45
Speaker 9: machines and the energy that runs our bodies, which is food.
1:42:50
Speaker 9: There's no way you can have life without energy. And
1:42:54
Speaker 9: the great irony of this is that carbon dioxide is
1:42:57
Speaker 9: the basis of all life, right, life is life is
1:43:01
Speaker 9: carbon based. Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon, and
1:43:06
Speaker 9: all organic matters have carbon in them, and we are organic.
1:43:12
Speaker 9: We humans were made out of carbon dioxide being taken
1:43:17
Speaker 9: in by plants first, and then we eat the plants,
1:43:21
Speaker 9: or we eat the animals that eat the plants, and
1:43:24
Speaker 9: that's how we get our energy and the building blocks
1:43:27
Speaker 9: for our proteins and everything else. Practically in our body
1:43:31
Speaker 9: except for our bones. All of flesh on an animal
1:43:36
Speaker 9: is made with carbon. And the other irony is that
1:43:41
Speaker 9: carbon dioxide is at one of the lowest levels it
1:43:44
Speaker 9: ever has been in the history of the Earth in
1:43:47
Speaker 9: the atmosphere. In fact, during the most recent glacial advance,
1:43:51
Speaker 9: which peaked about twenty thousand years ago, one of about
1:43:55
Speaker 9: forty that have happened in the place to see ice
1:43:58
Speaker 9: age CO two, saying, so the lowest it's ever been
1:44:01
Speaker 9: in the history of the Earth one hundred and eighty
1:44:04
Speaker 9: parts per million. At one hundred and fifty parts per million,
1:44:07
Speaker 9: plants start to die because they don't just need CO two,
1:44:12
Speaker 9: They need a certain level of it, just like we
1:44:14
Speaker 9: need a certain level of oxygen to survive. When we
1:44:19
Speaker 9: breathe out. We are breathing out between forty and fifty
1:44:23
Speaker 9: thousand parts per million CO two. The atmosphere has four
1:44:27
Speaker 9: hundred and twenty parts per million in it, which is
1:44:30
Speaker 9: way lower than plants would prefer. They would light eight
1:44:34
Speaker 9: hundred twelve hundred, two thousand parts per million. That's why
1:44:38
Speaker 9: all commercial greenhouse growers put extra CO two in their
1:44:43
Speaker 9: greenhouses get thirty to sixty percent higher growth of food.
1:44:48
Speaker 9: CO two is at a low level now in the
1:44:51
Speaker 9: global atmosphere, not at a high level. It used to
1:44:55
Speaker 9: be five thousand parts per million. When dinosaurs roam the earth,
1:45:00
Speaker 9: it was up to three to five thousand ppm. Is
1:45:04
Speaker 9: not correlated. It is not correlated with temperature in the
1:45:07
Speaker 9: long term record. These people are taking the last two
1:45:10
Speaker 9: hundred years and saying, well, it's getting a little bit
1:45:13
Speaker 9: warmer now and CO two is going up, so therefore
1:45:16
Speaker 9: CO two must cause the warming. If you go back
1:45:19
Speaker 9: in history, you will see that the correlation between CO
1:45:23
Speaker 9: two and temperature is almost nonexistent. There was a period
1:45:28
Speaker 9: of two hundred thousand years two hundred million years in
1:45:32
Speaker 9: between the last Ice Age and this one when CO
1:45:35
Speaker 9: two and temperature were at complete opposite odds to each other.
1:45:38
Speaker 9: CO two was going up while temperature was going down,
1:45:42
Speaker 9: and conversely CO two was going down while temperature was
1:45:46
Speaker 9: going up. It is there for anyone to see. It's
1:45:50
Speaker 9: all in my book. There's one hundred graphs and plates
1:45:53
Speaker 9: and charts which show the history of CO two and
1:45:56
Speaker 9: temperature of the Earth, among many other things. And yet
1:46:01
Speaker 9: even though it's sold very well on Amazon, it has
1:46:04
Speaker 9: more than two seven hundred reviews, ninety five percent are
1:46:08
Speaker 9: four and five star reviews. It's been in the top
1:46:11
Speaker 9: ten bestsellers in environment and other categories since it came
1:46:16
Speaker 9: out two years ago, and it has sold well.
1:46:19
Speaker 1: But the media just ignores it, ignores it much in
1:46:24
Speaker 1: the way the green movement ignores the points that you
1:46:26
Speaker 1: make that I've made million times before. Ohio is flat
1:46:29
Speaker 1: because we were once covered by a giant glacier and
1:46:32
Speaker 1: I'm glad it melted. We have great farmland now here
1:46:34
Speaker 1: in the state of Ohio. Doctor Patrick Moore, author of Fake,
1:46:38
Speaker 1: Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom, get a copy of
1:46:41
Speaker 1: fifty five cares dot com. We got a link there, doctor,
1:46:43
Speaker 1: where my listeners can get it. I hope they get it.
1:46:45
Speaker 1: I hope they read it. I hope they share it
1:46:47
Speaker 1: with their friends and spread truth and speaking of truth,
1:46:50
Speaker 1: Doctor Moore, thank you for speaking truth to power. This
1:46:52
Speaker 1: is very refreshing and particularly given your credibility having grown
1:46:57
Speaker 1: up in the green movement, it's a real pleasure having
1:46:59
Speaker 1: you on the show, and I wish you the best
1:47:02
Speaker 1: of luck and continue to fight the good fight. My friend,
1:47:04
Speaker 1: I don't know how he ended up a Hillsdale College.
1:47:06
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask him out of the gate. Mark Moyer,
1:47:07
Speaker 1: Welcome to the program. You got to ba summa, come
1:47:09
Speaker 1: loudly from Harvard University, after year before your PhD at
1:47:13
Speaker 1: university at Cambridge, and yet you're at Hillsdale College. Good
1:47:16
Speaker 1: to have you on the program, sir.
1:47:19
Speaker 13: Now, thanks for having me, Brian.
1:47:20
Speaker 1: Survive the woke reality of Harvard and your new book
1:47:23
Speaker 1: which we're talking about today, Triumph Regain, the Vietnam War
1:47:26
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, the nineteen sixty eight, nineteen sixty five,
1:47:29
Speaker 1: the year of my birth. What makes these three years
1:47:31
Speaker 1: so important or at least maybe distinct that you carved
1:47:35
Speaker 1: them out of the broader full length of the conflict? Mark?
1:47:41
Speaker 13: Yeah, so, I had previously written a book called Triumph Forsaken,
1:47:45
Speaker 13: which covered the war up to nineteen sixty five, which
1:47:49
Speaker 13: is basically, how did the US get into the Vietnam
1:47:52
Speaker 13: War and it ends with the Lennon Johnson making a
1:47:56
Speaker 13: decision on putting US troops in. So this book picks
1:48:00
Speaker 13: up with the actual arrival of American troops, and it's
1:48:05
Speaker 13: in many ways a decisive period of the war. Goes
1:48:09
Speaker 13: through the end of nineteen sixty eight, when Lyndon Johnson
1:48:11
Speaker 13: leaves office and is replaced by Richard Nixon, but the
1:48:15
Speaker 13: war rapidly turns around in nineteen sixty five and then
1:48:19
Speaker 13: enters a period of stalemate leading up to the tet
1:48:22
Speaker 13: offense of nineteen sixty eight.
1:48:24
Speaker 1: Well, we had quote unquote advisors there, right, I mean,
1:48:27
Speaker 1: didn't that start what was the Eisenhower administration or Kennedy administration,
1:48:31
Speaker 1: We started sending folks over there. This was a this
1:48:34
Speaker 1: whole conflict was being addressed by wasn't it the French
1:48:37
Speaker 1: prior to our taking over?
1:48:41
Speaker 13: Yes, the Eisenhower administration sent relatively small number, less than
1:48:45
Speaker 13: one thousand, and then when Kennedy comes in in nineteen
1:48:48
Speaker 13: sixty one, he decides he's going to up that number
1:48:53
Speaker 13: quite significantly, so it's up to about sixteen thousand by
1:48:57
Speaker 13: the time he's assassinated. And then when Johnson will increase
1:49:01
Speaker 13: that further hoping not to put In America tooths. But
1:49:03
Speaker 13: the South Vietnamese government goes into a tailspin after a
1:49:07
Speaker 13: coup of nineteen sixty three, and then that will necessitate
1:49:11
Speaker 13: the US put in ground forces in order to avert
1:49:14
Speaker 13: total defeat.
1:49:16
Speaker 1: Well, okay, there's the fundamental question, why did we care?
1:49:20
Speaker 1: Why do we go to war in Vietnam? And what
1:49:22
Speaker 1: were we hoping to achieve? I mean, I've always been
1:49:24
Speaker 1: led to believe since I grew up in this period
1:49:25
Speaker 1: of time again, I was born in sixty five, we
1:49:27
Speaker 1: were going to stop the red wave of communism wherever
1:49:30
Speaker 1: it existed across the globe. Is that really the sole basis?
1:49:36
Speaker 9: Essentially?
1:49:37
Speaker 13: Yes, it's focused particularly on Asia. And there was the
1:49:41
Speaker 13: idea of the dominant theory that if you allowed South
1:49:44
Speaker 13: Vietnam to fall, that all these other countries around it
1:49:47
Speaker 13: would fall, and that would then later get ridiculed by
1:49:52
Speaker 13: the left, including places like Harvard and so. But I've
1:49:59
Speaker 13: gone back and looked and said, well, why, what's the
1:50:03
Speaker 13: basis for dismissing this, And they said, well, in nineteen
1:50:06
Speaker 13: seventy five South eat on fall of the dominoes didn't
1:50:09
Speaker 13: all fall, And there's a logical flaw there because we
1:50:13
Speaker 13: go in in nineteen sixty five, it's a very different environment.
1:50:16
Speaker 13: And so I look at how the American intervention actually
1:50:21
Speaker 13: changed the dynamics in Asia and allowed those Domino countries
1:50:24
Speaker 13: to survive. And it is particularly important because a lot
1:50:29
Speaker 13: of those countries that we saved by going into Vietnam
1:50:32
Speaker 13: are now our key allies in creating our main adversary
1:50:36
Speaker 13: in China.
1:50:36
Speaker 1: I know, that's kind of one of the points I
1:50:39
Speaker 1: wanted to get to. It didn't work out so badly,
1:50:41
Speaker 1: this whole Domino effect of falling. And it turns out
1:50:44
Speaker 1: that you know, their manufacturers, their trading partners, and we
1:50:47
Speaker 1: have a reasonable relationship with them. But there's always this
1:50:51
Speaker 1: question of could we have won the war. I've been
1:50:54
Speaker 1: told repeatedly much in the same way this was an
1:50:56
Speaker 1: exercise of utility throughout my life, repeatedly that it was
1:50:59
Speaker 1: the invention of politicians in Washington, d c. Not generals
1:51:03
Speaker 1: who understand the layout of land, the battlefield, what the
1:51:05
Speaker 1: needs were. It was you know, folks like Lyndon Johnson
1:51:08
Speaker 1: and others sort of hamstringing the generals and getting the
1:51:11
Speaker 1: job done right. Is that what you have concluded as well,
1:51:14
Speaker 1: in your research on Vietnam War.
1:51:18
Speaker 13: Yes, and it's Lynda Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert
1:51:22
Speaker 13: McNamara are the two big players in all of this.
1:51:27
Speaker 13: And the generals are within South Vietnam. There they're allowed
1:51:32
Speaker 13: to mostly do what they want. But the problem is
1:51:34
Speaker 13: that the war is coming from North Vietnam and if
1:51:38
Speaker 13: you just played defense the whole time, you're never going
1:51:40
Speaker 13: to put an end to the problem. And the generals
1:51:43
Speaker 13: recognized early on, so they called for this intensive bombing
1:51:46
Speaker 13: of the North. But Johnson and McNamara pushed for this
1:51:49
Speaker 13: idea of gradual escalation based on some sort of fraudulent
1:51:54
Speaker 13: academic series and which turned out to be a disaster
1:51:57
Speaker 13: because it just encourage the enemy to escalate and gave
1:52:01
Speaker 13: them time to build up. And then the other big
1:52:03
Speaker 13: thing that the mcnamaron Johnson shot down was the proposals
1:52:07
Speaker 13: to go into Laos to cut the Hochi Min trail
1:52:10
Speaker 13: where the North Vietamese logistics were coming.
1:52:13
Speaker 1: I have a good friend of mine who actually was
1:52:15
Speaker 1: in Laoos doing the CIA type work when he wasn't
1:52:19
Speaker 1: supposed to be there. He's got some interesting stories about that.
1:52:22
Speaker 1: What was the big deal on that? I mean, I
1:52:24
Speaker 1: look at US. We go and we throw rockets in Syria,
1:52:26
Speaker 1: we launched missile strikes against countries with whom we have
1:52:29
Speaker 1: no conflict because we're looking for one bad guy. I mean,
1:52:32
Speaker 1: what was the whole concern over actually saying out loud, Yeah,
1:52:35
Speaker 1: we're gonna bomb the ho Chi Mintrail. We're going into
1:52:37
Speaker 1: doing this because if we don't stop the flow of
1:52:41
Speaker 1: soldiers and military armaments for the North of Vietnamese, we're
1:52:44
Speaker 1: never going to end this.
1:52:47
Speaker 13: Yeah, there's this huge fight between the Defense Department and
1:52:51
Speaker 13: State Department and the Ambassador William Sullivan is the ambassador
1:52:56
Speaker 13: US in massador in Laos to later go on and
1:52:58
Speaker 13: help wreck the Iranian regime in nineteen seventy nine. But
1:53:03
Speaker 13: he's claiming that, oh well, we can't violate the neutrality
1:53:07
Speaker 13: of Laos, even though the enemy's doing that. And then
1:53:09
Speaker 13: he comes up with some fantastic schemes to try to
1:53:13
Speaker 13: prevent this, in which they try to create artificial rain
1:53:17
Speaker 13: and mud so that they can gum up the supply
1:53:20
Speaker 13: lines of the North Emis with. This never actually works,
1:53:23
Speaker 13: and so you know there's bombing as well. But the
1:53:27
Speaker 13: North Vietnames are able to find ways around the bombing,
1:53:30
Speaker 13: and you know they've themselves have come out later and said, well, yeah,
1:53:34
Speaker 13: the one thing we really feared was that you would
1:53:36
Speaker 13: put ground troops there because you can't just sneak around,
1:53:40
Speaker 13: you know, two divisions of American troops.
1:53:43
Speaker 1: Well, is there something the farious that you've uncovered, Mark
1:53:46
Speaker 1: Moyer in doing all this research on Vietnam, even more
1:53:49
Speaker 1: fundamentally for Triumph regained the book we're talking about, there
1:53:52
Speaker 1: something nefarious about their unwillingness to fully commit because it
1:53:56
Speaker 1: just sounds like a total half ass approach. And that's
1:53:59
Speaker 1: been my perception and of the Hindsight's twenty twenty review
1:54:02
Speaker 1: of the Vietnam War, all these impediments as to what
1:54:05
Speaker 1: would be effective. Was there really was? Was it just
1:54:07
Speaker 1: pure diplomacy or is there something more behind the scenes
1:54:10
Speaker 1: that some people want to get I have no Vietnam
1:54:13
Speaker 1: North Vietnam successful. I mean, I'm just kind of wondering
1:54:15
Speaker 1: because it sounds like one mistake after another.
1:54:19
Speaker 13: Well, I think it was more a case of there's
1:54:23
Speaker 13: a lot of wishful thinking that goes on and misplaced fears.
1:54:27
Speaker 13: So Johnson and McNamara have this fear that if they
1:54:30
Speaker 13: step things up that Sylvie Union and China will intervene,
1:54:34
Speaker 13: and even the intelligence community saying that's not true. And
1:54:38
Speaker 13: now we again know that from post war revelations that
1:54:41
Speaker 13: Chinese and Suvie's did not plan to intervene. They didn't
1:54:44
Speaker 13: want to fight against the Americans in Vietnam. So that
1:54:47
Speaker 13: was a huge mistake. And then you also have in
1:54:51
Speaker 13: terms of one of Johnson's biggest mistakes, as he sort
1:54:55
Speaker 13: of admits towards the end of the war, is that
1:54:58
Speaker 13: he did not try to get public opinion behind the
1:55:01
Speaker 13: war because he was a concern that it would disrupt
1:55:06
Speaker 13: his great society domestic programs, which you know, as you
1:55:10
Speaker 13: mayor Paul, he expected that he was going to eliminate
1:55:13
Speaker 13: poverty from the entire United States in a few years,
1:55:16
Speaker 13: which of course didn't happen, but that was part of
1:55:19
Speaker 13: his thinking.
1:55:21
Speaker 1: Wow, well, that's that's the shame that you have the
1:55:26
Speaker 1: loss of life and a raging war that has impacted
1:55:30
Speaker 1: because he wants some social welfare program here, I mean
1:55:33
Speaker 1: take out social welfare program, put anything else. They came
1:55:35
Speaker 1: to be seen to be completely independent issues deserving of
1:55:38
Speaker 1: equal amounts of detention. This can we learn anything given
1:55:43
Speaker 1: that we're engaged in a proxy war right now with Russia.
1:55:46
Speaker 1: This is kind of the flip side in Ukraine. We're
1:55:48
Speaker 1: providing the Ukrainians with weapons and supplies and training, and
1:55:53
Speaker 1: insofar as North North Vietnam's concern, I mean, my understanding is,
1:55:57
Speaker 1: and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm operating
1:55:59
Speaker 1: under the assumption that China and or the Soviet Union
1:56:02
Speaker 1: we're providing weapons and supplies and resources for the North
1:56:05
Speaker 1: Vietnamese and the NVA. So they were waging a bit
1:56:08
Speaker 1: of a proxy war, weren't they right.
1:56:10
Speaker 13: That's right, they were providing lots and lots of material
1:56:15
Speaker 13: were Vietnam would not have been able to do much
1:56:17
Speaker 13: without the aid of those of those two partners, which
1:56:22
Speaker 13: something else does matters to be and we did not
1:56:24
Speaker 13: fully comprehend, but you know, in terms of what we
1:56:28
Speaker 13: can learn that might be relevant to Ukraine, and we
1:56:33
Speaker 13: don't know exactly what's going on internally within the government,
1:56:36
Speaker 13: but in general, the military leadership usually has a better
1:56:43
Speaker 13: grasp on a lot of these realities than the political leadership,
1:56:47
Speaker 13: especially you know, one of our big problems is that
1:56:49
Speaker 13: we don't have political leaders oftentimes who know anything about
1:56:54
Speaker 13: the military. Now there's exceptions like an Eisenhower who was
1:56:58
Speaker 13: Supreme Commander, but people like Joe Biden and you know,
1:57:02
Speaker 13: Barack Obama don't have much of a clue and.
1:57:08
Speaker 4: So they either know.
1:57:10
Speaker 13: Now, military is obviously not perfect, and you know, we've
1:57:13
Speaker 13: got some problems, you know, new problems with the rise
1:57:17
Speaker 13: of wokeness in the military, but there needs to be
1:57:21
Speaker 13: in general, you know, the civilians need to be paying
1:57:24
Speaker 13: close attention to what the military has to say and
1:57:27
Speaker 13: not not looking down on them as they don't want
1:57:30
Speaker 13: to do.
1:57:31
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I agree with that assumption or
1:57:33
Speaker 1: that that conclusion. Public opinion here in the United States
1:57:38
Speaker 1: and the Vietnam War gradually changed over time. You know,
1:57:40
Speaker 1: you start with the year of the book, nineteen sixty
1:57:43
Speaker 1: five to nineteen sixty eight. I mean, the anti war
1:57:46
Speaker 1: protests were full on by nineteen sixty eight, were they not.
1:57:51
Speaker 13: Yeah, they really got going in nineteen sixty.
1:57:53
Speaker 1: Seven with Summer of Love draft rules.
1:57:57
Speaker 13: Yes, the you know, interestingly, college campuses were pretty supportive
1:58:02
Speaker 13: of the war until the middle of sixty seven when
1:58:04
Speaker 13: the draft rules change and they get rid of draft
1:58:07
Speaker 13: exemptions for graduate school, and all of a sudden, you
1:58:09
Speaker 13: see this surge. It's certainly not everywhere. It's mainly on
1:58:14
Speaker 13: elite campuses in northeast northwest of the country.
1:58:18
Speaker 1: Mario Savio out in Berkeley, Yes, and so, but you know,
1:58:25
Speaker 1: it's a bit.
1:58:25
Speaker 13: Like today where you see people saying, well, there's all
1:58:28
Speaker 13: this you know, chatter on Twitter about an issue and
1:58:31
Speaker 13: show that people ring this way. Well, it's actually just
1:58:34
Speaker 13: a pretty small minority who is very loud and vocal.
1:58:37
Speaker 9: So that's what you have.
1:58:38
Speaker 13: And so public opinion polls in nineteen sixty eighth showed
1:58:41
Speaker 13: the country as a whole is actually pretty still pretty
1:58:44
Speaker 13: solidly behind the war, and they recognize what's at stake
1:58:48
Speaker 13: and and that you don't just go into a war
1:58:51
Speaker 13: with half a million Americans and then just pull right out.
1:58:54
Speaker 13: And but this, you know, this small anti war minority,
1:58:59
Speaker 13: and then they go on, of course to positions in
1:59:02
Speaker 13: academia and the media and then try to make it
1:59:05
Speaker 13: seem like, oh, everybody agreed with them, but they were,
1:59:08
Speaker 13: you know, pretty small and unpopular minority at the time.
1:59:12
Speaker 1: Did this the public opinion relative to the Vietnam War?
1:59:15
Speaker 1: Did that impact Johnson's decision? I do choose not to run.
1:59:18
Speaker 1: I mean, was that impactful in his decision.
1:59:23
Speaker 13: It had, it did have some effect, and he was
1:59:26
Speaker 13: a little bit vague about why he chose not to run.
1:59:29
Speaker 13: But that episode in March of sixty eight is also
1:59:33
Speaker 13: a bit misconstrued. Sometimes people think, well, this was when
1:59:37
Speaker 13: us decided to get out of Vietnam. But Johnson actually
1:59:40
Speaker 13: does not get rid of or does not remove American
1:59:44
Speaker 13: troops at all during the rest of his term. In fact,
1:59:47
Speaker 13: one of the good things he does is he finally
1:59:49
Speaker 13: gets sick of Robert McNamara and realizes he's been selling
1:59:52
Speaker 13: them a lot of snake oil, and so replaces McNamara
1:59:56
Speaker 13: and actually takes a tougher position during the last months
2:00:01
Speaker 13: of his administration.
2:00:03
Speaker 1: We'll tell you what. Considering again going back to Ukraine
2:00:06
Speaker 1: as an illustration of certain parallels, what lessons do we
2:00:10
Speaker 1: learn from the Vietnam War that should inform the folks
2:00:12
Speaker 1: that are making the decisions in Ukraine and other military exercises.
2:00:20
Speaker 13: Another thing that I think is relevant, though it's a
2:00:22
Speaker 13: bit late now for Ukraine. But one of the problems,
2:00:26
Speaker 13: one of the big mistakes Linda Johnson made was he
2:00:29
Speaker 13: did not convey American resolve at the beginning. In facted
2:00:33
Speaker 13: the opposite when he is reaction to the Tonkin Gulf,
2:00:37
Speaker 13: and since the nineteen sixty four and then he made
2:00:39
Speaker 13: some very famous statements in the presidential campaign, but I'm
2:00:44
Speaker 13: not going to send American boys to Vietnam, and this
2:00:47
Speaker 13: of course encourages the North Vietnamese to invade in force
2:00:51
Speaker 13: in the beginning of nineteen sixty five. And we've seen
2:00:54
Speaker 13: some of the same things with this administration early on
2:00:58
Speaker 13: in Ukraine and setting mixed messages about what America is
2:01:04
Speaker 13: going to do. And so the United States has a
2:01:09
Speaker 13: pretty long history in fact of conveying the wrong impression
2:01:14
Speaker 13: about American resolve and encouraging our enemy.
2:01:17
Speaker 4: So the.
2:01:20
Speaker 13: US going forward needs to be very assertive and not
2:01:23
Speaker 13: mince words and make clear that it's not to be
2:01:26
Speaker 13: trifled with, because we oftentimes when we try to act
2:01:30
Speaker 13: like we don't want war, that's the time where most
2:01:32
Speaker 13: likely to actually get into a war, isn't that true?
2:01:35
Speaker 1: Wow, And have your game plan laid out, like what
2:01:38
Speaker 1: your goals are in achieving any given objective laid out
2:01:41
Speaker 1: and understood in advance, so we all have a clear
2:01:44
Speaker 1: understanding of the objective, which is quite often not the
2:01:46
Speaker 1: case Afghanistan Mark Moyer. It's a fantastic discussion, and I
2:01:51
Speaker 1: will let my listeners know this is a comprehensive book
2:01:55
Speaker 1: in terms of the years covered sixty five to sixty eight.
2:01:59
Speaker 1: I think you have like one hundred pages of footnotes
2:02:00
Speaker 1: of being a lawyer. That's really important because you can
2:02:03
Speaker 1: go to the source information and know exactly where you
2:02:05
Speaker 1: got the information that summed up in the book Triumph
2:02:08
Speaker 1: Regained and Real Quick for you part company, Mark your
2:02:10
Speaker 1: first book that you alluded to earlier, the Trump Trump
2:02:13
Speaker 1: for a Sake in the Vietnam War fifty four to
2:02:15
Speaker 1: sixty five. I understand you got a little bit of
2:02:17
Speaker 1: academic lip on that one. What was real quick? What
2:02:21
Speaker 1: was the story on that a stir was created in academia?
2:02:26
Speaker 13: Yes, well, the people who were protesting against the war
2:02:30
Speaker 13: in the sixties, a lot of them became professors. And
2:02:33
Speaker 13: if you look at American history departments, there's very few
2:02:37
Speaker 13: Vietnam veterans and a huge number of Vietnam War protesters.
2:02:42
Speaker 13: And so you know, when you're kind of fundamentally questioning
2:02:45
Speaker 13: their one of their defining moments and saying, well, you know,
2:02:49
Speaker 13: you were actually mistaken about all of this, they don't
2:02:52
Speaker 13: take kindly to it. So yeah, I was not welcome
2:02:55
Speaker 13: in a lot of college campus.
2:02:58
Speaker 1: From Hillsdale College. Mark Moyer get a copy of the
2:03:01
Speaker 1: book on my blog page fifty five cars dot Com.
2:03:03
Speaker 1: Triumphrey Gain Vietnam from nineteen sixty five to nineteen sixty eight.
2:03:06
Speaker 1: Thanks for what you're doing. Market's fascinating stuff. And I
2:03:08
Speaker 1: really enjoyed the conversation today, and I know my listener
2:03:10
Speaker 1: is going to thoroughly enjoy the book. I've been looking
2:03:12
Speaker 1: forward to this conversation all morning. I saw Richard Hurwitz
2:03:16
Speaker 1: was going to be on the program at this time,
2:03:18
Speaker 1: and he is. Richard is I'll just give you a
2:03:21
Speaker 1: little background on He's writer and entrepreneur, founder and publisher
2:03:24
Speaker 1: of The Octavian Report. Writings appeared in multiple sources including
2:03:28
Speaker 1: The New York Times, Financial Times, My Favorite, The Wall
2:03:31
Speaker 1: Street Journal, Times, The Love in Los Angeles Times, History Today,
2:03:35
Speaker 1: and The Jerusalem Post Graduate Yale University where he studied history,
2:03:38
Speaker 1: Columbia Law School. And he has written a wonderful book
2:03:42
Speaker 1: called Excuse Me in the Garden of the Righteous. The
2:03:45
Speaker 1: heroes who risk their lives to save Jews during the
2:03:47
Speaker 1: Holigas Holocaust Richard, Welcome to the fifty five KRSE Morning Shows.
2:03:51
Speaker 1: A real pleasure to have you on.
2:03:53
Speaker 9: It's pleasure to be on. Thank you for having me.
2:03:56
Speaker 1: I was staring at the statistics on this and every
2:03:59
Speaker 1: I think there's not a human being alive, at least
2:04:01
Speaker 1: I hope so that doesn't know who Oscar Schindler was
2:04:03
Speaker 1: because of the of course the very famous movie Schindler's
2:04:06
Speaker 1: List helped the Jews escape Nazi persecution. Apparently he was
2:04:11
Speaker 1: very much not alone in this, And in your book
2:04:14
Speaker 1: in the Garden of Righteous, you've identified a smaller subset
2:04:17
Speaker 1: of that larger group who helped the Jews to tell
2:04:19
Speaker 1: the amazing story about this. How did you go about
2:04:23
Speaker 1: whittling away all of the stories of the twenty seven
2:04:27
Speaker 1: thousand folks who did risk their lives and arrive at
2:04:29
Speaker 1: the ten that you focus on in the book, Richard, Yeah,
2:04:33
Speaker 1: it's a really good question.
2:04:34
Speaker 15: I mean, it's interesting that you know there were a lot.
2:04:36
Speaker 15: It's twenty seven thousand people out of five hundred million, So.
2:04:41
Speaker 1: Okay, Phil, it was a pretty rare occurrence, fair enough.
2:04:45
Speaker 15: Yeah, But I tried to try to select and I
2:04:48
Speaker 15: talked in the introductions a little bit about us some
2:04:51
Speaker 15: other stories of people that everyone from kind of Herbert
2:04:54
Speaker 15: Hubert to Frank Sinatra that actually was pretty pretty.
2:04:56
Speaker 9: Heroic in their own way.
2:04:57
Speaker 15: But I tried to pick story that we're kind of
2:05:00
Speaker 15: a cross section of why people did this. Places people
2:05:04
Speaker 15: did this, countries people did it. So you have everybody
2:05:07
Speaker 15: from the ring master of a circus in Germany to
2:05:11
Speaker 15: a Italian Tour de France winner to Prince Harry's great
2:05:16
Speaker 15: grandmother who was a princess and save the family of
2:05:19
Speaker 15: Jews in Greece. So part of it was to try
2:05:22
Speaker 15: to kind of give up a broad sex sub section.
2:05:24
Speaker 15: Of part of it is because these are just really
2:05:26
Speaker 15: interesting stories that to.
2:05:27
Speaker 1: Me, at least before we dive into some of the illustrations,
2:05:30
Speaker 1: from where did you get all of this information to
2:05:34
Speaker 1: be able to tell a detailed story about any one
2:05:36
Speaker 1: of these individuals.
2:05:39
Speaker 9: Yeah, So it was a lot of archival research.
2:05:42
Speaker 15: I went into archives all over the world in over
2:05:46
Speaker 15: a dozen languages. There's some very good testimony in Yad Vashem,
2:05:52
Speaker 15: the Memorial Museum in Jerusalem, there's online testimony, and then
2:05:56
Speaker 15: I was actually able to interview quite a number of
2:05:59
Speaker 15: people who were either rescued as children, because at this
2:06:03
Speaker 15: point that's who's left. And also I interviewed quite a
2:06:06
Speaker 15: number of the children of rescuers, which was interesting because
2:06:10
Speaker 15: they were while they were all very heroic, they weren't
2:06:11
Speaker 15: all saints and they were real regular people like everyone,
2:06:14
Speaker 15: who had flaws and as well as good points.
2:06:19
Speaker 10: Well.
2:06:19
Speaker 1: One of the stories, and I saw your piece in
2:06:22
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal from January nineteenth in advance of
2:06:26
Speaker 1: the International Holocaust Rememberance Day, the story of Lucas Karan.
2:06:31
Speaker 1: I think you alluded to it earlier about the Greek
2:06:33
Speaker 1: island is it was it Zachenthos. Yes, give my listeners
2:06:38
Speaker 1: just a little taste of Lucas Karen's bravery.
2:06:43
Speaker 4: Sure.
2:06:43
Speaker 15: Yeah, So the Greeks, the Jews in Greece actually had
2:06:47
Speaker 15: the worst survival rate in Europe. It was almost ninety
2:06:50
Speaker 15: five percent of them were wiped out, but most of
2:06:52
Speaker 15: those were in the north and in the south around
2:06:55
Speaker 15: Athens and in the islands. It was quite different. And
2:06:59
Speaker 15: so Zasninitos is is a small, very beautiful island in
2:07:02
Speaker 15: the Ionian Sea. When the Venetians controlled that, they called
2:07:06
Speaker 15: it the Jewel of the Levant because it's so beautiful,
2:07:09
Speaker 15: and there were only two hundred Jews who lived there,
2:07:11
Speaker 15: and yet the Nazis, you know, pathologically would would would
2:07:15
Speaker 15: go to Eddie where they thought they were Jews. So
2:07:17
Speaker 15: they actually showed up and they asked Lucas Carr, who
2:07:21
Speaker 15: was the local mayor, for a list of Jews so
2:07:24
Speaker 15: that they could support them, and he he uh, and
2:07:28
Speaker 15: they left for it within twenty four hours. He went
2:07:31
Speaker 15: and confided to a friend of his who was the
2:07:33
Speaker 15: local metropolitan, The priest Chrystoskimos, and the head of the
2:07:38
Speaker 15: Greek Church de Mosquinos in Athens is the only head
2:07:41
Speaker 15: of a church in Europe who formerly protested the Holocaust,
2:07:45
Speaker 15: and he had told all of his priests and other
2:07:48
Speaker 15: members of the clergy to do whatever they could to
2:07:50
Speaker 15: help the Jews, and and and so did a lot
2:07:52
Speaker 15: of the mayors and people in the city, and just
2:07:54
Speaker 15: people help their neighbors and so so Carr and the
2:07:59
Speaker 15: metropolitan went back the next day to the to the
2:08:01
Speaker 15: Nazi and they handed him a piece of paper and
2:08:04
Speaker 15: they said, here's the list of Jews that you require,
2:08:08
Speaker 15: and on the list they'd written two names their own.
2:08:12
Speaker 15: And interestingly, you know, that was a you know, they
2:08:15
Speaker 15: could have been shot on the spot right would have been,
2:08:19
Speaker 15: but the Nazi just backed down. And then what happened was,
2:08:21
Speaker 15: over the next period of time, the entire island sent
2:08:25
Speaker 15: all their Jews off into the hills and hid them,
2:08:28
Speaker 15: and they all survived the war. So they've both been honored.
2:08:34
Speaker 15: But it was pretty remarkable.
2:08:35
Speaker 1: But yeah, extraordinarily brave, extremely brave, because yet Nazis were
2:08:39
Speaker 1: known to indiscriminately gun people down for whatever reason they
2:08:42
Speaker 1: crossed their heads or just a terrible, terrible regime in
2:08:45
Speaker 1: the Garden of the Righteous the name of the book,
2:08:47
Speaker 1: the heroes a risk their lives to save Jews during
2:08:49
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. I guess I'm always just baffled by the
2:08:54
Speaker 1: idea that the German army, or throwing the s s
2:08:58
Speaker 1: and anybody else who collaborate with the German army, was
2:09:00
Speaker 1: sympathetic to the whole idea of exterminating Jews, still a
2:09:03
Speaker 1: smaller subject of the much larger population. I mean, I
2:09:07
Speaker 1: think of America's military if it descended on the greater
2:09:09
Speaker 1: Cincinnati area, how long it would take for them to
2:09:12
Speaker 1: go door to door and search and search and search
2:09:14
Speaker 1: to find anybody you're trying to hide. But they were
2:09:18
Speaker 1: so successful in finding the Jews and exterminating them. Was
2:09:22
Speaker 1: it really that much the will of the people. You
2:09:24
Speaker 1: had to have informants within the population that would ferret
2:09:27
Speaker 1: out those who'd be willing to try to save these
2:09:29
Speaker 1: folks lives. Is that a big part of the problem
2:09:33
Speaker 1: that the Jews faced throughout the entire war?
2:09:37
Speaker 4: Yeah?
2:09:38
Speaker 15: Absolutely, I mean the hardcore cadre of Nazis could not
2:09:42
Speaker 15: have done this without a huge amount of people collaborating.
2:09:45
Speaker 15: And people were talking about the numbers earlier. I mean,
2:09:48
Speaker 15: the vast majority of people either stood by and did
2:09:51
Speaker 15: nothing or actively collaborated. There were people who turned their
2:09:54
Speaker 15: neighbors in for small rewards, there were people who did
2:09:57
Speaker 15: it just out of.
2:09:57
Speaker 3: Spite and what.
2:10:00
Speaker 15: But by contrast, when you had certain places like Zakinthos
2:10:03
Speaker 15: or Denmark and there are a few, you know, there
2:10:05
Speaker 15: were a few others, that's where you ended up having
2:10:08
Speaker 15: having a higher survival rate, and there was a rescuer
2:10:12
Speaker 15: in Holland, you know where Anne Frank was, who was
2:10:15
Speaker 15: quoted as saying that people like him, the you know,
2:10:17
Speaker 15: the extreme rare examples were the tip of the spear.
2:10:19
Speaker 15: But they could not have done what they did. Was
2:10:21
Speaker 15: it not for people looking the other way. But unfortunately
2:10:25
Speaker 15: in most of Europe that wasn't the case. And in fact,
2:10:27
Speaker 15: in a lot of countries like Poland and Lithuania, the
2:10:30
Speaker 15: local population did a huge part of the dirty work.
2:10:34
Speaker 15: I mean they literally were the people who we were
2:10:36
Speaker 15: shooting the Jews or rounding them up and sent to
2:10:38
Speaker 15: the to the camps. But it's an important lesson because
2:10:42
Speaker 15: you know, people without without the vast majority of the
2:10:44
Speaker 15: population aiding in a betting, that they never could have
2:10:48
Speaker 15: killed six million Jews and millions.
2:10:50
Speaker 9: Of other people.
2:10:51
Speaker 1: Well, that's illustrated, is it not, by King Christian the
2:10:54
Speaker 1: tenth in Denmark, And they're sort of collective mentality as
2:10:58
Speaker 1: it related to the treatment of Jews. They, I guess
2:11:00
Speaker 1: forbade discrimination against the Jews. The the citizenry there was
2:11:05
Speaker 1: not willing to cooperate with the Jews. So in spite
2:11:08
Speaker 1: of the fact that the Danes probably couldn't offended off
2:11:11
Speaker 1: the Nazis or in a military invasion, they weren't willing
2:11:13
Speaker 1: to cooperate with them and turn them in.
2:11:16
Speaker 15: Yeah, and what you found that from the beginning that
2:11:19
Speaker 15: was part of the stipulation. And Denmark was an interesting
2:11:22
Speaker 15: story because the local the military and the other local
2:11:27
Speaker 15: occupying forces. I mean, the Danes did not like them.
2:11:30
Speaker 15: The Fascist party there got less than two percent of
2:11:33
Speaker 15: the vote. But the Nazis realized, you know, to go
2:11:36
Speaker 15: round up the Jews would be more trouble than it
2:11:38
Speaker 15: was worth. It finally went up to Hitler and he
2:11:41
Speaker 15: personally said, you're going to round up the Jews. And
2:11:44
Speaker 15: when they went to go do it, the government actually,
2:11:47
Speaker 15: who were tipped off by a German in the government
2:11:51
Speaker 15: who was sympathetic to the Jews and a member of
2:11:53
Speaker 15: the Nazi Party like shinlern Incently, the entire population then
2:11:57
Speaker 15: did the exact opposite of what we've been talking about.
2:11:59
Speaker 15: They went door to door. They as almost as one,
2:12:06
Speaker 15: brought the Jews across the Straits to Sweden. There were
2:12:09
Speaker 15: everyone from medical students to taxi drivers. I talked about
2:12:12
Speaker 15: in my book a Rower from the Olympic Rower who
2:12:14
Speaker 15: brought twelve people. It's what you went back and forth
2:12:17
Speaker 15: twelve times to Sweden. And as a consequence of ninety
2:12:20
Speaker 15: nine percent of the seventy two hundred Jews in Denmark survived.
2:12:26
Speaker 15: So they were for a while able to actually hold
2:12:28
Speaker 15: the Nazis off. But when when the you know, the
2:12:32
Speaker 15: when Hitler himself ordered the round up. The Danes were
2:12:36
Speaker 15: almost unique.
2:12:37
Speaker 10: In doing this.
2:12:38
Speaker 15: They actually the entire country and when people came back,
2:12:40
Speaker 15: the story is told that their plants had been watered,
2:12:43
Speaker 15: their dogs had been fed, their homes had been cared for,
2:12:46
Speaker 15: and because there had been no history of religious discrimination
2:12:50
Speaker 15: in Denmark, the Jews had been there for a long
2:12:52
Speaker 15: time and they were viewed as Danes first and jew second,
2:12:56
Speaker 15: and they were the people's friends and neighbors, and they
2:12:58
Speaker 15: fought for Denmark and the Danes, as you point out,
2:13:01
Speaker 15: from the king down from the first day the Nazis arrived,
2:13:05
Speaker 15: and one of the stipulations if you don't want trouble
2:13:07
Speaker 15: is you're not going to touch our Jews.
2:13:09
Speaker 1: That is, there's so many lessons that we learned just
2:13:11
Speaker 1: from that one story, but it's just one of many
2:13:14
Speaker 1: in the book in the Garden of the Righteous, the
2:13:16
Speaker 1: heroes who risk their lives to say the Jews during
2:13:18
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. By my guest today, Richard Hurrowitz, with fantastic
2:13:22
Speaker 1: Richard talking with you. I really appreciate you putting this
2:13:25
Speaker 1: down and explaining a little bit higher dose to reality,
2:13:28
Speaker 1: but also showing the humanity that can exist in spite
2:13:32
Speaker 1: of the challenges their books on my blog page at
2:13:35
Speaker 1: fifty five cars dot com. People will click on it easily.
2:13:37
Speaker 1: They can get a copy of it, and I'll just
2:13:39
Speaker 1: recommend that they share it with friends once they've read
2:13:41
Speaker 1: it themselves. Richard, thanks for what you've done and again
2:13:43
Speaker 1: for the time you spent with my listeners of me today.
2:13:45
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the fifty five Cars Morning Show. Robert Spencer,
2:13:49
Speaker 1: best selling author. Last time he was on the program,
2:13:51
Speaker 1: we talked about this book, The History of Jihad, The
2:13:53
Speaker 1: Palestinian Delusion, also Did Muhammad Exist? Another book and the
2:13:57
Speaker 1: Critical Qur'an. Multiple books He's read, seminars for the FBI,
2:14:01
Speaker 1: the US Central Command, US Army Command, the General Staff College,
2:14:05
Speaker 1: and the Asymmetric Warfare Group and the Joint Terrorism Task Force.
2:14:10
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the fifty five Carosee Morning Show, Robert Spencer.
2:14:13
Speaker 1: It's great heaven. You want to talk about your brand
2:14:15
Speaker 1: new book, The Sumpter Gambit. How the Left is trying
2:14:18
Speaker 1: to foment a civil war, frightening tie of Robert. Welcome
2:14:21
Speaker 1: to the show.
2:14:22
Speaker 14: Great to talk to you, Brian.
2:14:24
Speaker 9: Thank you very much.
2:14:25
Speaker 1: My distinct pleasure, and I'm staring hopeful. I mean, I
2:14:28
Speaker 1: want to say I'm in disbelief over the subject matter,
2:14:31
Speaker 1: but I can't be. I mean, I talk about this
2:14:33
Speaker 1: kind of thing every single day. The Left is fomenting
2:14:37
Speaker 1: division across our country and on every subject matter available
2:14:41
Speaker 1: what used to be traditional norms. There's an X and
2:14:44
Speaker 1: a Y, there's an XC and X. You can tell
2:14:45
Speaker 1: a boy from a girl chromosomeile. It's definitive. Nope, not anymore.
2:14:50
Speaker 1: Depends on what you feel like at megiven Day. That's
2:14:52
Speaker 1: just one of a multitude of topics. You're suggesting in
2:14:55
Speaker 1: this book that that is in fact a concerted effort
2:14:58
Speaker 1: to foment a civil war.
2:15:00
Speaker 14: Robert absolutely, absolutely, Brian, no doubt about it. You can look,
2:15:05
Speaker 14: for example, at Biden's speech from September one, twenty twenty two,
2:15:09
Speaker 14: where he said Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans are
2:15:13
Speaker 14: a threat to the very life of the Republic. You
2:15:15
Speaker 14: can look back in American history at forty five previous presidents,
2:15:18
Speaker 14: and you will never find a president of the United
2:15:21
Speaker 14: States saying that his principal opponent and half of the
2:15:24
Speaker 14: electorate were threats to the republic. There has always been
2:15:28
Speaker 14: a mutual respect that was the basis of our political system.
2:15:32
Speaker 14: But now Biden and the people running in are trying
2:15:36
Speaker 14: to actually silence dissent and allow only their point of
2:15:40
Speaker 14: view to be heard, and to make it actually a
2:15:43
Speaker 14: criminal act to oppose his regime. And that's not how
2:15:49
Speaker 14: a free society works. And that's going to either destroy
2:15:54
Speaker 14: our freedoms and make the United States radically transform the
2:15:58
Speaker 14: United States as he himself and Obama put it, or
2:16:01
Speaker 14: else there will be a civil war.
2:16:03
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I always, and I got to be
2:16:05
Speaker 1: honest with you, Maybe perhaps because I'm smarter than them,
2:16:09
Speaker 1: I always kind of laugh at statements like that. It's
2:16:11
Speaker 1: just absolutely absurd that conservatives side of the ledger folks
2:16:15
Speaker 1: like me. I consider myself a libertarian, but I'm a
2:16:17
Speaker 1: profound constitutionalist. I believe in the freedoms and liberties that
2:16:20
Speaker 1: are guaranteed by it. I believe in the protections against
2:16:23
Speaker 1: the abuses by government that are enshrined in the Bill
2:16:26
Speaker 1: of Rights in the Constitution. I appreciate the fact that
2:16:29
Speaker 1: the left is trying to undermine them at every turn,
2:16:31
Speaker 1: but the idea that someone like me who believes in
2:16:34
Speaker 1: freedom and liberty and fair elections and the constitutional of
2:16:38
Speaker 1: the republic in which we stand that I'm a threat
2:16:42
Speaker 1: to the very document that I support ten times, one
2:16:44
Speaker 1: hundred times, one thousandfold more than they ever would. It
2:16:47
Speaker 1: just sounds stupid when they say it.
2:16:50
Speaker 14: It is stupid, and it's an absurd inversion of reality.
2:16:53
Speaker 14: The problem is they've got the guns, they've got the military,
2:16:57
Speaker 14: they've got the police, they've got peopleople who are willing
2:17:01
Speaker 14: to do.
2:17:02
Speaker 9: What they say.
2:17:03
Speaker 14: And what they say is that people who call for
2:17:07
Speaker 14: those things, people who believe in the things you just enumerated,
2:17:10
Speaker 14: are insurrectionists who have to be watched, who have to
2:17:13
Speaker 14: be silenced, and so on.
2:17:15
Speaker 1: But so many of us, me included, are proud firearms
2:17:19
Speaker 1: plural owners, and we know how to use them and
2:17:21
Speaker 1: go to the range quite often. We're engaged in shooting
2:17:24
Speaker 1: sports as I am, rifles at the rifle range, pistols
2:17:27
Speaker 1: of the pistol range, shooting steels, and I love shooting skiet.
2:17:30
Speaker 1: So I'd put myself up against any leftist out there
2:17:33
Speaker 1: in the world. How is it sure? How is it
2:17:36
Speaker 1: they think they're going to overcome the overwhelming number of
2:17:39
Speaker 1: firearms owners in this country. If it really did hit
2:17:41
Speaker 1: the fan along these lines, Robert.
2:17:43
Speaker 14: Well, in the first place, I do want to say
2:17:45
Speaker 14: that I'm hoping it won't. I'm hoping that we can
2:17:47
Speaker 14: head this offf but if it does, I think that
2:17:50
Speaker 14: we would be naive to think it's just going to
2:17:53
Speaker 14: be a bunch of patriots with guns against toy boys
2:17:56
Speaker 14: who think guns are bad and that they're really winmen
2:17:59
Speaker 14: at heart. It's going to be patriots versus people in
2:18:03
Speaker 14: the military and the police who think that following orders
2:18:07
Speaker 14: and keeping their jobs is more important than actually standing
2:18:11
Speaker 14: for principle. And there are unfortunately a lot of people
2:18:15
Speaker 14: like that in the United States today, and this is
2:18:18
Speaker 14: why it could be very difficult if it comes to that,
2:18:21
Speaker 14: and once again, I hope it doesn't.
2:18:23
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'm kind of curious if any research
2:18:26
Speaker 1: surveys have been done among folks within the military, within
2:18:29
Speaker 1: law enforcement, because I know every time some looney leftist
2:18:33
Speaker 1: comes up with a new law banning guns or otherwise
2:18:36
Speaker 1: criminalizing previously non criminal behavior, that there are sheriffs out
2:18:41
Speaker 1: in the world, many of them that auld stand up
2:18:43
Speaker 1: and say, you think I'm the head law enforcement in
2:18:45
Speaker 1: the county, I am not going to enforce this. I
2:18:47
Speaker 1: refuse to arrest people who violate this ridiculous rule you
2:18:52
Speaker 1: put in place because it's unconstitutional. There are I always
2:18:56
Speaker 1: like to gravitate toward that because the men and women
2:18:58
Speaker 1: in the military that I know, and the people that
2:18:59
Speaker 1: I I know that serve in our military, they're the
2:19:02
Speaker 1: true patriots. That's why they're serving. And I can't imagine
2:19:05
Speaker 1: them turning a firearm on and otherwise, you know, strong
2:19:11
Speaker 1: constitutionally sound conservative like myself, just because they're told to.
2:19:17
Speaker 14: Well, I hate to sound a pessimistic note, and I
2:19:21
Speaker 14: certainly agree with you. The military the the sault of
2:19:24
Speaker 14: the earth. These people are patriotic and the rank and
2:19:28
Speaker 14: file are people that we can count on to uphold
2:19:32
Speaker 14: the principles of the country, and they're not going to
2:19:35
Speaker 14: go to war against their own citizens. A problem is
2:19:38
Speaker 14: that we also have seen that there are people on
2:19:41
Speaker 14: the other side, like, for example, when Roger Stone was arrested,
2:19:46
Speaker 14: seventy year old political activists and out threat to anybody,
2:19:49
Speaker 14: but they could get twenty cops out there to put
2:19:52
Speaker 14: the cuffs on him and humiliate him in public. When
2:19:55
Speaker 14: the pro life activists were arrested and they got a
2:19:58
Speaker 14: swat team and they were willingly going and arresting these
2:20:01
Speaker 14: pro life activists and making a big show of it
2:20:04
Speaker 14: as if they were dangerous, see when they're just ordinary
2:20:07
Speaker 14: people who were standing for life and no threat to anybody.
2:20:12
Speaker 14: And so if that kind of thing is what I'm
2:20:15
Speaker 14: talking about, that if you have people who are willing
2:20:18
Speaker 14: to staff a swat team to take down an ordinary
2:20:22
Speaker 14: American citizen or seventy year old political activist, then we
2:20:26
Speaker 14: got a problem.
2:20:27
Speaker 4: Yeah.
2:20:27
Speaker 1: No, And there's no argument there, and I never would
2:20:29
Speaker 1: argue with you on that very very valid point that
2:20:32
Speaker 1: happened though, on what I guess I can say is
2:20:35
Speaker 1: a micro level. If you're going after one guy, of
2:20:38
Speaker 1: course you can gather up enough people who are willing
2:20:40
Speaker 1: to carry out an otherwise ridiculous order to kick in
2:20:43
Speaker 1: somebody's door in the middle of the night when it
2:20:45
Speaker 1: was totally unnecessary. But when you're unleashing this on a
2:20:49
Speaker 1: broad national scale, I always like to look at the numbers.
2:20:52
Speaker 1: The American military has what two million members or something.
2:20:55
Speaker 1: We had three hundred and fifty million civilians in this country.
2:20:59
Speaker 1: I look at the map, and I move your Google
2:21:02
Speaker 1: map from your house and zoom out a little bit more,
2:21:04
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Taking an entire neighborhood would require
2:21:08
Speaker 1: you know, a lot thousands of troops in any given
2:21:10
Speaker 1: geographic area. Do they have the numbers to pull something
2:21:14
Speaker 1: like this off. It seems that we would have to
2:21:15
Speaker 1: start with a declaration of martial law for it to
2:21:18
Speaker 1: even have a chance of surviving.
2:21:22
Speaker 14: Well, sure, we're talking about though, the coming to arms,
2:21:25
Speaker 14: coming to a hot war, which, like I said, I
2:21:28
Speaker 14: hope it doesn't happen right now. What they're trying to
2:21:31
Speaker 14: do is rhetorically portray their opponents as being outside the
2:21:37
Speaker 14: bounds of acceptable political discourse in the United States, and
2:21:40
Speaker 14: not only just to say that, not only was there
2:21:43
Speaker 14: just Biden's speech in September, but to act upon that.
2:21:47
Speaker 14: And that's what we see was, for example, the Twitter files,
2:21:50
Speaker 14: where we see people in the administration getting people banned
2:21:54
Speaker 14: from Twitter and from other social media platforms just for
2:21:57
Speaker 14: disagreeing with the government's line. And the longer use that
2:22:01
Speaker 14: goes on and the less it is resisted, then the
2:22:06
Speaker 14: more it will be become a matter of that is
2:22:09
Speaker 14: taken for granted among an increasing number of the populations
2:22:13
Speaker 14: that yeah, these people are unacceptable, and yes we must
2:22:15
Speaker 14: not say things like that, and so we either get
2:22:18
Speaker 14: into line or will come to conflict.
2:22:20
Speaker 1: Well, we see with Black Lives Matter in the sixteen
2:22:23
Speaker 1: nineteen in critical race theory. We see it with the
2:22:26
Speaker 1: green movement, the green energy. If you don't abide, then
2:22:29
Speaker 1: you just want to kill the earth or whatever. Again,
2:22:32
Speaker 1: you can't come to a subject matter that exist in
2:22:36
Speaker 1: traditional norms in our country that they haven't really really
2:22:40
Speaker 1: gone to hard work undermining. How you can't even look
2:22:42
Speaker 1: at the American flag as a symbol of unity anymore.
2:22:45
Speaker 1: We don't even have our own national anthem. One of
2:22:48
Speaker 1: my listeners just pointed out, does mister Spencer think the
2:22:50
Speaker 1: singing of the black national anthem is part of this
2:22:52
Speaker 1: as well?
2:22:54
Speaker 8: No doubt about it.
2:22:55
Speaker 14: Yes, they're trying to sew division, trying to make people
2:22:59
Speaker 14: loose people's allegiance to the country, makes people not think
2:23:03
Speaker 14: that they are Americans the way that other people are Americans.
2:23:07
Speaker 14: And all of that is just laying the groundwork for
2:23:10
Speaker 14: either taking total control, establishing an authoritarian state, or provoking
2:23:17
Speaker 14: an incident of resistance that they can use to buttress
2:23:20
Speaker 14: their ridiculous insurrection claims and crack down upon descent even
2:23:25
Speaker 14: more than they do already.
2:23:26
Speaker 1: My guest today Robert Spencer, he's the author of the
2:23:28
Speaker 1: book we're talking about the Sumpter Gamuit, how the left
2:23:31
Speaker 1: is trying to foam in a civil war. The name
2:23:34
Speaker 1: of the book, the Sumter Gambit. Can you describe that
2:23:36
Speaker 1: for my listeners how you arrived at the title?
2:23:40
Speaker 14: Yeah, that comes from, of course, Fort Sumter, the beginning
2:23:43
Speaker 14: of the Civil War in eighteen sixty one, and it
2:23:48
Speaker 14: was the flashpoint when the South, the Confederates in Charleston,
2:23:53
Speaker 14: South Carolina, fired upon Fort Sumter. That was the beginning
2:23:56
Speaker 14: of the war. And now the left is trying to
2:23:58
Speaker 14: provoke another hint thant of that kind that actually came
2:24:02
Speaker 14: about when the North decided that it wasn't going to
2:24:07
Speaker 14: accept the reality of secession and assume that it was
2:24:11
Speaker 14: still their fort even though the South claimed it and
2:24:14
Speaker 14: reinforced the soldiers there rather than just evacuating them. And
2:24:18
Speaker 14: so it's the same kind of thing now that the
2:24:21
Speaker 14: left is trying to push patriots into doing something like
2:24:25
Speaker 14: I just said that they can use to support their
2:24:28
Speaker 14: insurrection nonsense or else just we sit back and take
2:24:32
Speaker 14: it and take it and take it until the country
2:24:34
Speaker 14: is unrecognizable.
2:24:36
Speaker 1: Well, I'm immediately really reminded of January sixth and the
2:24:40
Speaker 1: overreaction the left had to that one, talking about how
2:24:43
Speaker 1: a bunch of like it looks like a drunken fraternity riot.
2:24:46
Speaker 1: As far as I was concerned, and I was, as
2:24:47
Speaker 1: I mentioned millions of times my listeners, I was screaming
2:24:50
Speaker 1: as I was watching that the optics don't do this.
2:24:53
Speaker 1: Where in the he what the hell is going on?
2:24:55
Speaker 1: You guys have no idea how bad this is going
2:24:57
Speaker 1: to look and how much they're going to run with
2:24:58
Speaker 1: this in the media. And they sure did. But going
2:25:00
Speaker 1: back to the to the Republican baseball practice where the
2:25:03
Speaker 1: guy opened fire on Steve Scalise and others, he was
2:25:07
Speaker 1: he had a hit list. He could have literally turned
2:25:11
Speaker 1: the tide by killing any a significant number of Republicans there,
2:25:15
Speaker 1: and that's what his motive was, That's what his goal was.
2:25:18
Speaker 1: And they called it suicide by cop. He didn't know
2:25:20
Speaker 1: there were police there when he showed up, and not
2:25:23
Speaker 1: a word about it. They they've ignored it, and in
2:25:25
Speaker 1: fact Congress and Winstroup has asked for documents and information
2:25:29
Speaker 1: relating to it, and they've stonewalled him.
2:25:32
Speaker 14: Yep, we'll see this kind of thing doesn't fit the narrative, right,
2:25:35
Speaker 14: and so it doesn't exist. The news media is not
2:25:39
Speaker 14: about telling us what happened. The news media is about
2:25:42
Speaker 14: pushing their narrative. And since the shooting of Scalise did not.
2:25:46
Speaker 9: Fit that, it does not exist.
2:25:47
Speaker 14: There's just no news about it. And yet any inquiry
2:25:50
Speaker 14: will be stonewalled.
2:25:52
Speaker 1: All right, before we part company, and I know my
2:25:53
Speaker 1: listener are going to get your book, The Sumpter Gamut.
2:25:55
Speaker 1: They can do it at fifty five cars dot com
2:25:57
Speaker 1: on the blog page, Get a copy of it, share
2:25:58
Speaker 1: it with your friends, give us some positive is there
2:26:01
Speaker 1: What can we do? Is there helpful information in your
2:26:04
Speaker 1: book that'll steer us in the right direction?
2:26:06
Speaker 14: Robert, Oh, absolutely, yeah. And there's what we have to
2:26:09
Speaker 14: do is understand that now is the time that we
2:26:13
Speaker 14: all have to become activists, that when nobody's going to
2:26:15
Speaker 14: do this for us, and we cannot sit back and
2:26:17
Speaker 14: wait for the soldiers to come and save us or
2:26:20
Speaker 14: anybody else. And so, for example, the parents standing up
2:26:23
Speaker 14: at school board meetings, the ones who the FBI opened
2:26:26
Speaker 14: up terrorism investigations against just for speaking out, that's an
2:26:30
Speaker 14: example of what I'm talking to that but also it's
2:26:32
Speaker 14: a sign of hope that these parents didn't just sit
2:26:35
Speaker 14: back and say, gee, it's terrible what they're doing in
2:26:37
Speaker 14: the schools. They stood up and they made it stop.
2:26:39
Speaker 14: And that's what we can and must do at this
2:26:42
Speaker 14: point all across the board.
2:26:43
Speaker 1: True patriots they are and continue to be. And my
2:26:46
Speaker 1: listening audience is right in your wheelhouse, Sir Robert Spencer.
2:26:50
Speaker 1: It's been great having you on the program again. Keep
2:26:52
Speaker 1: writing these wonderful books. Explain to the American people where
2:26:55
Speaker 1: we are and what we can do about it. Get
2:26:57
Speaker 1: a copy of Sumpter Gamut at fifty five caresy dot
2:26:59
Speaker 1: com have left just trying to foam at a civil war.
2:27:01
Speaker 1: Thanks for your time and your service, Robert, it's been
2:27:04
Speaker 1: a real pleasure. By Thomas Hosti the Fintybob cac Morning
2:27:06
Speaker 1: Show always pleased to talk to authors, but notably when
2:27:09
Speaker 1: we're dealing with the topic of COVID nineteen. Welcome to
2:27:11
Speaker 1: the fifty five KRC Morning Show author Brent Hamicheck. He's
2:27:14
Speaker 1: written a book called Zolenko. How Did Decapitate This Serpent?
2:27:19
Speaker 1: Is by way of background. In addition to authoring this book,
2:27:21
Speaker 1: he's owned his own business consulting practice since two thousand.
2:27:23
Speaker 1: He's a co founder of common Ground Campus, member of
2:27:26
Speaker 1: Human Events media group parent company Human Events, and the
2:27:29
Speaker 1: Post Millennial. Got a BS in Finance and Economics from
2:27:32
Speaker 1: Lake Superior State University, post a graduate degree from the
2:27:36
Speaker 1: Graduate School of Banking at the University of Wisconsin, and
2:27:39
Speaker 1: Masters and Studies in theology at Loyola University. Welcome to
2:27:42
Speaker 1: the program, Brett. It's a real pleasure to have you
2:27:44
Speaker 1: on today.
2:27:46
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
2:27:48
Speaker 3: I always love an opportunity to talk about the book
2:27:51
Speaker 3: and Jebb's work.
2:27:52
Speaker 1: Well, let us talk about before we get to the
2:27:55
Speaker 1: man who is doctor Zolenka Vladimir Zelenko. How did you
2:27:59
Speaker 1: get interest in writing an entire book on his life
2:28:02
Speaker 1: and his work in COVID nineteen and alternatives to the
2:28:05
Speaker 1: narrative that we get from the mainstream media and the
2:28:06
Speaker 1: World Health Organization and CDC.
2:28:10
Speaker 3: Well, I got interested in it by way of getting
2:28:14
Speaker 3: interested first in him, and I had an opportunity to
2:28:17
Speaker 3: first get acquainted with zev as his friends called him.
2:28:21
Speaker 3: Back in late twenty twenty when a dear friend of mine,
2:28:26
Speaker 3: tamer Lee, who knew him and had met him, introduced
2:28:29
Speaker 3: us and from there developed a friendship, and that friendship
2:28:34
Speaker 3: led to constant communication during the later stages of the pandemic,
2:28:39
Speaker 3: but usually not about the virus. Usually we would talk
2:28:43
Speaker 3: about political theory or theology. He was a very brilliant man,
2:28:48
Speaker 3: and that friendship, those conversations ultimately led to the idea
2:28:53
Speaker 3: that a book ought to be written. And Zev had
2:28:56
Speaker 3: a terminal cancer diagnosis given to him way back twenty
2:29:00
Speaker 3: eighteen before the pandemic ever started, and once it was
2:29:05
Speaker 3: decided that he wanted to write a book, then we
2:29:07
Speaker 3: tried to do so with all deliberate speed, and sadly,
2:29:12
Speaker 3: the book was completed just after his passing in June
2:29:16
Speaker 3: of last year. But fortunately it's based on over sixty
2:29:20
Speaker 3: hours of recorded interviews and countless conversations that weren't recorded.
2:29:25
Speaker 3: So it is his input into the book that was
2:29:28
Speaker 3: ultimately written.
2:29:29
Speaker 1: Okay, and he became a bit of a lightning rod
2:29:32
Speaker 1: my understanding. As he posted back in twenty twenty video
2:29:35
Speaker 1: on YouTube regarding hydroxy chloro queen, I guess his protocol
2:29:40
Speaker 1: for dealing with COVID the hydroxy chlor queen you have
2:29:43
Speaker 1: zinc sulfate a xethramiasin, and he suggested that he had
2:29:47
Speaker 1: cured or treated hundreds of patients successfully with that. Donald
2:29:51
Speaker 1: Trump mentioned zev in comments about hydroxy chloro queen, and
2:29:56
Speaker 1: it's almost at that moment in time that he became
2:29:59
Speaker 1: this lightning r I guess because Trump embraced the concept,
2:30:03
Speaker 1: it became their boten. Did you reach that conclusion? I
2:30:06
Speaker 1: know it's a broad brush statement, but is that the
2:30:08
Speaker 1: conclusion you reached.
2:30:10
Speaker 3: Oh, your broad brush statement could have been painted with
2:30:13
Speaker 3: an artist narrow brush for detail, because you have it
2:30:17
Speaker 3: exactly right. And that's exactly what happened. And it was
2:30:23
Speaker 3: zev who first discovered the effective treatment protocol for treated
2:30:29
Speaker 3: and virus. And if you moved the clock forward to
2:30:31
Speaker 3: the end of his life, by the time he had
2:30:33
Speaker 3: passed away, he had overseen the treatment for approximately seventy
2:30:37
Speaker 3: five hundred patients with three deaths, and the three deaths
2:30:42
Speaker 3: which we talked about in the book, we're probably destined
2:30:46
Speaker 3: to happen no matter what. And it was him who
2:30:50
Speaker 3: had given the information to the White House with regard
2:30:53
Speaker 3: to the efficacy of the treatment protocol you just mentioned.
2:30:56
Speaker 3: And there can be no question at all that the
2:31:00
Speaker 3: very fact that Donald Trump mentioned it, because of the
2:31:04
Speaker 3: meet media's vitriolic hatred of him, that once he said
2:31:08
Speaker 3: hydroxychloric when could be part of the solution, they had
2:31:12
Speaker 3: to make sure that never happened. That was very political.
2:31:17
Speaker 3: And the idea that you know, a million plus people
2:31:21
Speaker 3: died unnecessarily simply over politics and of course over money
2:31:28
Speaker 3: is well. Zev called it a crime against humanity. I
2:31:31
Speaker 3: think it was exactly that.
2:31:34
Speaker 1: I guess I'm appalled. I mean, it's hard for me,
2:31:36
Speaker 1: and I trust me, I do not doubt for a
2:31:38
Speaker 1: moment that is how it all wind up. Trump says
2:31:42
Speaker 1: something and everybody on the left hand side of the
2:31:45
Speaker 1: ledge of those that hate him immediately call that a lie,
2:31:47
Speaker 1: and we'll do the exact opposite. And we saw that
2:31:49
Speaker 1: with a border, Trump successfully stopped the influx of immigration.
2:31:52
Speaker 1: As soon as Biden comes in, he reverses everything Trump
2:31:54
Speaker 1: did just because Trump did it, and we're left with
2:31:57
Speaker 1: this disgusting aftermath. I guess I'm just appalled at the
2:32:02
Speaker 1: notion that for political reasons, legitimate scientists, I mean medical
2:32:07
Speaker 1: community folks, folks that are supposed to be, you know,
2:32:09
Speaker 1: diagnosticians and are interested in finding the truth would simply
2:32:13
Speaker 1: disregard this. Did they ever subject his protocol to a
2:32:16
Speaker 1: peer reviewed study? I mean, did they bother even looking
2:32:19
Speaker 1: into it? It just became this if Trump said it,
2:32:22
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, you're crazy to use it. This is
2:32:24
Speaker 1: a horse medication or something.
2:32:28
Speaker 3: Yes. Subsequently, yes the protocol has been tested, and yes,
2:32:33
Speaker 3: the protocol has been proven to be effective. We in
2:32:38
Speaker 3: the book we show that research, and we also show
2:32:42
Speaker 3: the research that was deliberately designed to produce what we
2:32:46
Speaker 3: could call a false negative. And without going too far
2:32:50
Speaker 3: into weaves, first of all, if your audience picks up
2:32:53
Speaker 3: a copy of Zelenko through zelenkobook dot com, they can
2:32:57
Speaker 3: read about this in detail. But the judgen that studies
2:33:01
Speaker 3: were conducted that used either hydroxychloroicline or ivermectin in a
2:33:08
Speaker 3: way that was never suggested or prescribed by the physicians
2:33:13
Speaker 3: using it. So, in other words, they said, oh, there's
2:33:17
Speaker 3: a claim that these drugs can be effective against the virus.
2:33:20
Speaker 3: Let's test it only when we test it. Let's test
2:33:24
Speaker 3: it in a way that nobody's using it. And so
2:33:28
Speaker 3: they would do so, and they would produce studies and
2:33:31
Speaker 3: they would basically say, see it doesn't work. The problem
2:33:34
Speaker 3: was nobody claimed that it worked in the manner in
2:33:38
Speaker 3: which they were producing the study, In the studies that
2:33:42
Speaker 3: had been done that use Zelenko protocol the way it
2:33:45
Speaker 3: was intended to be used the way it was used.
2:33:48
Speaker 3: The facts are clear, and Zev's work was fully vindicated
2:33:52
Speaker 3: prior to his death, which he knew, in which brought
2:33:56
Speaker 3: him a good deal of joy in his final months.
2:34:00
Speaker 1: If I can draw a parallel that I think applies
2:34:02
Speaker 1: here in police, feel free to correct me if I'm
2:34:03
Speaker 1: way off base. I recall back in the seventies as
2:34:06
Speaker 1: a young child, remember the sacrin scare that was all
2:34:09
Speaker 1: going to give us liver cancer or something. It was carcinogenic.
2:34:12
Speaker 1: But the studies they used subjected the mice in the
2:34:15
Speaker 1: study to like eight hundred gallons worth of the stuff
2:34:17
Speaker 1: a day, on a level at which no one would
2:34:20
Speaker 1: ever take it. So is that an analogy that for
2:34:23
Speaker 1: the protocol. If they had only used the amounts he
2:34:26
Speaker 1: called for in his protocol, as you pointed out, it
2:34:29
Speaker 1: would have proven it a good protocol and a worthy one.
2:34:33
Speaker 1: They just didn't do it that way.
2:34:36
Speaker 3: You're exactly right, Only it's worse, So think of it
2:34:40
Speaker 3: this way in the Sacram studies, that was just sort
2:34:44
Speaker 3: of even to any lay person, that was sloppy research, right.
2:34:48
Speaker 3: I mean, of course, if you inject enough of anything
2:34:51
Speaker 3: into anything, it'll do it harm. In this case, it
2:34:56
Speaker 3: is different because they had an actual proto call that
2:35:00
Speaker 3: was being used, and instead of testing the protocol in
2:35:04
Speaker 3: many of these studies, they altered the protocol intentionally to
2:35:09
Speaker 3: distort the message that the public would get. And so
2:35:14
Speaker 3: that's far worse. One is sloppy and perhaps ill conceived
2:35:17
Speaker 3: in the case of the Sacram, and the other is
2:35:20
Speaker 3: intentional with purpose and malice. The forethought, in the case
2:35:24
Speaker 3: of the studies on hydroxy cleric when in ivermectin.
2:35:27
Speaker 1: Did doctor Zelenko survive to analyze those studies that were
2:35:32
Speaker 1: done that suggested his protocol was worthless? I mean, did
2:35:35
Speaker 1: he have a reaction to that given all the hours
2:35:36
Speaker 1: you spent with him, Oh.
2:35:39
Speaker 3: He absolutely did. And let me just share briefly with
2:35:42
Speaker 3: your audience that Vladimir Zelenko traveled what we call an
2:35:47
Speaker 3: America and what we love in America, the hero's journey, right,
2:35:52
Speaker 3: And so the hero's journey. You know, he was born
2:35:55
Speaker 3: in Kiev and came here with his family at the
2:35:57
Speaker 3: age of four, grew up and lived a modesty life,
2:36:00
Speaker 3: became a regular family medical practitioner in upstate New York,
2:36:06
Speaker 3: you know, kind of the life of his community. Used
2:36:09
Speaker 3: to say he was a family member to all of
2:36:11
Speaker 3: his patients. And then one day patients started to get
2:36:15
Speaker 3: really sick and they started to die. And instead of
2:36:18
Speaker 3: sitting around and waiting to find out from government or
2:36:22
Speaker 3: the health industry what he should do, he started to
2:36:24
Speaker 3: do some research and he figured out what's come to
2:36:27
Speaker 3: be known as the Zelenko protocol. For that he should
2:36:31
Speaker 3: have been given parades and treated as a hero. Instead,
2:36:35
Speaker 3: like the hero's journey often encounters, he was faced with
2:36:38
Speaker 3: scorn and ridicule, and then ultimately, by the end of
2:36:42
Speaker 3: his life, the research, the results of treatment around the
2:36:46
Speaker 3: world fully vindicated what he had claimed along the way.
2:36:51
Speaker 3: So this is the story the Americans love, and it's
2:36:55
Speaker 3: the story that we try to tell in the book.
2:36:57
Speaker 3: And yes, he did survive long enough to reach both
2:37:00
Speaker 3: the bad research and then the vindicating research.
2:37:03
Speaker 1: Well, given if there is vindicating research out there, and
2:37:06
Speaker 1: that the proving that these protocols actually work, why don't
2:37:10
Speaker 1: we hear about them? Brett I mean, it's still get
2:37:12
Speaker 1: a vaccine, get the Pfizer back, get the booster shot,
2:37:15
Speaker 1: get ten booster shots, get one every year. I mean,
2:37:17
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anybody talk about it. Well, you know,
2:37:19
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you get COVID not a big deal.
2:37:20
Speaker 1: Just use the protocol and you're gonna be fine.
2:37:23
Speaker 4: Right.
2:37:24
Speaker 3: Well, let's let's let's get really really dark and really
2:37:27
Speaker 3: really cynical about human nature. Please, so so, because because
2:37:33
Speaker 3: that's where we should stay all the time.
2:37:34
Speaker 1: Anyway, And amen, brother, amen, I tell everyone be jaded
2:37:38
Speaker 1: and cynical about everything. Do your own research and make
2:37:42
Speaker 1: sure you're smart about the research you're doing. Sorry I
2:37:44
Speaker 1: had to interject that, but you are talking my talk,
2:37:46
Speaker 1: my friend.
2:37:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no problem at all. Somebody want to
2:37:50
Speaker 3: interject on me and stop me everyone a while. So, So,
2:37:54
Speaker 3: what your audience perhaps has learned by now, and if
2:37:56
Speaker 3: they haven't, they'll read and understanding the book is that
2:38:00
Speaker 3: you can't get emergency use authorization for a vaccine if
2:38:05
Speaker 3: there is a known, aspective and widely available treatment for
2:38:09
Speaker 3: the disease against which you're vaccinating. Said differently, the FIZA
2:38:15
Speaker 3: of the Maderna vaccines and others never could have been
2:38:18
Speaker 3: brought to market as fast as they were if there
2:38:21
Speaker 3: was an accepted effective way to treat people. Well, there was,
2:38:26
Speaker 3: So what do you do? You suppress it.
2:38:29
Speaker 9: And that's exactly what happened. So the treatment was suppressed
2:38:33
Speaker 9: so that emergency use authorizations could be received, so that
2:38:37
Speaker 9: the pharmaceutical companies could make a lot of money, and
2:38:40
Speaker 9: so that politicians involved in promoting the vaccine could.
2:38:43
Speaker 3: Look like heroes. Now, if that's not bad enough, let's
2:38:47
Speaker 3: make it a little bit worse. Let's answer your question.
2:38:50
Speaker 3: So that's where it started. Why aren't we hearing all
2:38:53
Speaker 3: about it everywhere today? Why doesn't the New York Times
2:38:56
Speaker 3: run a story every morning? Well here's the reason. How
2:39:00
Speaker 3: can they? Because for an extended period of time, First
2:39:06
Speaker 3: they lied to people about the efficacy of treatment, Then
2:39:09
Speaker 3: they lied to people about the need for a vaccine.
2:39:13
Speaker 3: What are they going to do now? Are they going
2:39:16
Speaker 3: to suddenly come clean? Are they going to admit to
2:39:19
Speaker 3: their mistakes? Are they going to do honest reporting? All
2:39:23
Speaker 3: those things would be a form of self lynching. And
2:39:26
Speaker 3: of course we know that people aren't into that. It's
2:39:28
Speaker 3: a general habit. So they didn't do it on purpose.
2:39:32
Speaker 3: At the start, whether it was because of Trump or
2:39:34
Speaker 3: whether it was because of money and politics. And they
2:39:37
Speaker 3: won't do it now because they won't atone for their
2:39:40
Speaker 3: past sins. They won't admit their culpability.
2:39:43
Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong. Listen,
2:39:46
Speaker 1: I got caught up in the flurry as well. I
2:39:49
Speaker 1: listened to what they were telling us. I took them
2:39:51
Speaker 1: at their word. I was lied to. I mean that
2:39:54
Speaker 1: to me, it establishes or re establishes I might argue
2:39:58
Speaker 1: their credibility by admitting them were wrong at one point.
2:40:02
Speaker 3: Well, of course that's true, right, we all like to
2:40:06
Speaker 3: admit we're wrong. There's a couple of different things here.
2:40:10
Speaker 3: Admitting you're wrong usually comes when you sincerely and genuinely
2:40:17
Speaker 3: were mistaken and you feel some form of contrition. They
2:40:21
Speaker 3: were deliberately complicit and oh, by the way, it's hard
2:40:26
Speaker 3: to say to the public, gosh, I was wrong when
2:40:29
Speaker 3: you being wrong if you were resulted in over a
2:40:33
Speaker 3: million deaths. So whether some of them want to say it,
2:40:37
Speaker 3: they might, they're afraid to because they know what they did.
2:40:41
Speaker 3: And for most of them, they aren't contrite in the
2:40:43
Speaker 3: first place. They're not sorry about anything. They did it
2:40:47
Speaker 3: on purpose, and a million human beings in the United
2:40:49
Speaker 3: States were an acceptable loss.
2:40:53
Speaker 1: I could talk to you for literally hours of Bret Hamichak,
2:40:57
Speaker 1: author of the book we're referring to you today, are
2:40:58
Speaker 1: talking about Day's LINKA, how did decapitate the servant? Are
2:41:03
Speaker 1: you of the mind that this committee, this sub committee
2:41:06
Speaker 1: that has been established to look into COVID, the origins
2:41:08
Speaker 1: the lies by the Republicans in Congress? Now, are you
2:41:12
Speaker 1: have any hope whatsoever that this is going to reveal
2:41:14
Speaker 1: something along the lines of what you have revealed in
2:41:17
Speaker 1: this book.
2:41:19
Speaker 3: I have every reason to hope that it will reveal
2:41:23
Speaker 3: much of what's in the book, and even more right,
2:41:26
Speaker 3: I mean, while we knew about vaccine injuries and things
2:41:30
Speaker 3: when this by the time this manuscript was completed, which
2:41:33
Speaker 3: for time reference, was the middle of August of this
2:41:35
Speaker 3: past year, so the book gets sent to the publisher.
2:41:38
Speaker 3: Then what we've learned a lot more since then about
2:41:41
Speaker 3: vaccine injuries and the side effects. We knew plenty, and
2:41:44
Speaker 3: we know more. So yes, I'm hopeful that more will
2:41:47
Speaker 3: come out. Here's what I'm not hopeful about that anybody
2:41:51
Speaker 3: will pay attention to it. Who isn't already paying attention
2:41:56
Speaker 3: to it. So it's not about folks like yourself, myself,
2:42:00
Speaker 3: for others in your audience who have been tuned into
2:42:04
Speaker 3: this and they get it right. It is about the
2:42:07
Speaker 3: millions who have either been tuned down or misled. And
2:42:11
Speaker 3: will they look at this when the information gets as
2:42:14
Speaker 3: it comes out of this committee, and I believe it will,
2:42:17
Speaker 3: Are they going to look at it and say, oh
2:42:19
Speaker 3: my god, what have they done? Or will they look
2:42:23
Speaker 3: at it and simply find a way to swipe left
2:42:25
Speaker 3: on it. It's a republican committee, they're just trying to
2:42:28
Speaker 3: get even. It's more propaganda. It's easier to dismiss an
2:42:33
Speaker 3: inconvenient truth than it is to confront it and contemplate it.
2:42:38
Speaker 3: And so my fear is that most people will again
2:42:41
Speaker 3: simply swipe left on the inconvenient truth.
2:42:44
Speaker 1: Well, we'll see, brilliantly stated, and I certainly appreciate your
2:42:48
Speaker 1: analysis along those lines, and I tend to agree along
2:42:52
Speaker 1: what you have concluded. They have so successfully polluted the
2:42:55
Speaker 1: well because of the political bias that you're right, swiping
2:42:59
Speaker 1: one direct or another seems inevitable. This has been a
2:43:01
Speaker 1: fantastic conversation. I can't thank you enough on behalf of
2:43:04
Speaker 1: my listeners for writing the book. Zelenko, how did he
2:43:07
Speaker 1: capitate the serpent? You mentioned your website. I'll also tell
2:43:09
Speaker 1: you we're going to put it up on fifty five
2:43:11
Speaker 1: KRC dot com so people can easily have the link
2:43:14
Speaker 1: there and get a copy of the book, which I
2:43:16
Speaker 1: certainly will encourage them to get and share it with
2:43:18
Speaker 1: your friends and might I offer, hey, Brett, send the
2:43:22
Speaker 1: books to everybody on that committee so they have a
2:43:24
Speaker 1: copy of it conveniently and they can look into it
2:43:27
Speaker 1: while they're looking into the COVID.
2:43:29
Speaker 3: I think you just increased my ups billing for the day.
2:43:32
Speaker 3: It's a splendid idea.
2:43:34
Speaker 1: Take care of my friend. It's been great talking to you.
2:43:36
Speaker 1: Thanks again for writing the book and spending time with
2:43:38
Speaker 1: us this morning on the Morning Show.