Latest / Skin Anarchy / Lindsay Miller, Deputy Editor at POPSUGAR

Transcript

Lindsay Miller, Deputy Editor at POPSUGAR · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host, Ecta, and I have an amazing guest with me today.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I am so excited that she had the time for this interview.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Lindsay Miller, who is the deputy editor at Pop Sugar.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the show.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Lindsay, I'm so, so excited you're here.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you for having me.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad to be here.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Such a pleasure.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to dive into your career background and how you got into editorial.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, was this something you always wanted, or can you tell us all the details?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think from a young age, you know, as soon as I learned to read, I loved reading, I loved writing, I just loved stories.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I I kind of knew from a really early age that I wanted a career where I could be creative.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I wanted to be able to make things at work, to tell stories.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, as I kind of like evolved into college and started thinking more seriously about what that might look like, I was really interested in that time at that time in working in magazines and kind of taking that traditional media route.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, after I graduated, I was really open to new opportunities.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I worked for a traditional magazine, I worked um on some websites.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, when I went to Pop Sugar, I got the really cool opportunity to start doing kind of like, you know, broadcasts with interviewing celebrities for YouTube and TV.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and discovered that I really enjoyed that.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was fun.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought I wanted to do broadcast journalism in journalism school.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, I just don't want to be on camera, it's so stressful.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then I realized like it can actually be really fun to sort of take those chances in your career as they come along and just not be too resistant to pushing yourself and trying new things.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really love that you said that because you know, when I first started this podcast, um, a big motivation motivating factor for me was well, what about all the editors that make all the celebrities famous?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you guys go and you interview, you you make this, you know, this content come alive.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I love that you said you're a little camera shy, and you know, so I I get that.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I think too, honestly, like digital media was kind of just emerging as I went to college.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the cool thing about working in editorial and media is just that it evolves and changes all the time.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's really hard to answer a question about like, well, what do you want to be doing in five years?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because you never know what's gonna be emerging, right?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like nobody knew TikTok was gonna be huge five years ago, and now it's like such an important creative space.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And can I just say I still don't understand TikTok?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot to learn.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a lot of people feel the same, but it's really fun.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Spend some time on it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think you'll like it.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I absolutely I need to get more into it.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to actually, I want to ask you so tell me the difference between um what you described with media and digital, and then you know, the classic print magazines back in the day.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, I was a total fan of those, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around digital and like, you know, how it works and and how it's really changing the editorial world.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, look, I still love magazines.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the same as you.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I was growing up, I like wanted to get every copy of YM and 17 that I could.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I took so much inspiration from all of those photo shoots and loved them.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, one thing that is advantageous about the digital landscape is just how quickly it allows you to move.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, that can be a double-edged sword because it can feel really overwhelming to try to kind of keep up with the pace of everything.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, there's just kind of like that opportunity, I think, to feature more voices, be more inclusive, move more quickly.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when you're working in, you know, online media where you don't have to sort of like lock an issue two months before it lands in people's mailbox mailboxes, you know.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, like way more planning ahead, like with paper.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, yeah.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just kind of more freedom.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, when I worked, my first um job out of college was at Reader's Digest magazine.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's like you're plotting out to make sure that, you know, the word count fits within the design layout perfectly and making those teeny tiny tweaks.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, like kind of like crossing your fingers that everything is gonna still feel really relevant and of the moment um once it goes to print.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, I love Reader's uh digest.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's a classic, it's been around for forever.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: That and National Geographic, and like I I remember being a kid and just having all these magazines.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was always like, Why are you why do you have this like a subscription to like 50 magazines?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I was the same.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the the thing is too, like I I loved working there because it was such a good education.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I worked for the West Coast editor, Meg Brant, and she would book every celebrity cover.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people don't necessarily think about the fact that Reader's Digest, I think, is the at the time was the second biggest magazine in the country.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we were booking huge stars for every single issue.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a great learning experience for me because she would really guide it from booking to the photo shoot to working with the writer and editing.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really like a crash course in how to create a celebrity story.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: See, I would love to see that.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, all these masterclasses and stuff, Lindsay, like about like everything.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I would love to see someone like you or you know, do something for editorial because I feel like out there in terms of like the career path, there's such in my opinion, at least, there's very little information about all the behind the scenes.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it would be really interesting to see that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad you mentioned that.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one question we do yeah, go ahead.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, go ahead.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say, you know, I do it's funny.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was talking to one of my colleagues today about the fact that I think editorial can still seem so mysterious to people that are just getting started and outside of it.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, the more I can do opportunities like this and just sort of like pull back the curtain, I'm all for it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I want to ask you actually, how hard is it to work with a celebrity and get them on board and that whole process?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell us about that?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it it completely depends what the scenario is.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whether you're trying to book somebody for a big cover story or just get a really great quote on a red carpet, all of those opportunities are so different.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the other piece of the puzzle, too, is that the celebrity landscape, the beauty landscape, all of that has changed so much in the last 15 years I've worked in media because, you know, back in the day, if celebrities wanted to publicize something or get a statement out, like they had to go straight to media to do it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now everybody has their own social platforms, right?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot more accessibility and transparency, you know, if celebrities choose to go that route, um, which I think has been really fascinating to watch evolve.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it definitely has changed um the way celebrity works.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, I think it's also it's also been um largely like a positive thing because I think, you know, it allows celebrities to get more like direct feedback from their fans.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: It allows them to sort of like test the waters when they're launching products.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think for celebrities, it's been a really good thing.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's definitely more challenging on the editorial side because then you're like, okay, what can we, how can we tell a story?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: How can we conduct a really cool photo shoot?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: How can we get something from this interview that's still going to feel special and distinct from something that a celebrity could just do themselves?
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly, yeah.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: It almost just forces you to like level up all the time and really think about like what you can offer as a storyteller, um, you know, and a creative force to really make it worth it, not just for celebrities to participate, but for fans and the audience to get something out of it.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm sure it's a challenge, especially uh what you said, because you know, I'm thinking like when it comes to like editors, I always imagine, you know, in terms of like celebrity issues or a cover, I think, you know, the editors involved are the ones that are really showcasing, you know, something beautiful and you guys are putting it out in a way that's it's never been done before.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I remember growing up, or even in college, like, you know, when I would see, for example, you know, one of my favorite singers or one of my favorite actresses on a magazine cover, I was like, damn, the team did a great job.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like whoever the team was in this in this issue, I mean, they killed it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I I like what you said that yeah, they have that, you know, opportunity on Instagram or wherever they are, but I don't think you could ever replace editorial's work, you know, in terms of showcasing.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but to your point too, another thing that I think has been so cool, speaking to like the beauty landscape is like I feel like, you know, when I was young, of course, there were those few like makeup artists and hairstylists who were famous in their own, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm thinking of like Kevin Acoyne, for example.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: But today, all of those creators have their own platforms too.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't have to just, you know, admire J Lo's manicure in on a magazine cover or in a digital spread.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can also go watch like Tom Batchick's Instagram to see exactly how he created it and what products he used and kind of like get to know him as a creative force in his own right.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really exciting too, because it's also created so much more literacy and awareness around skincare and beauty because the curtain, like I said, has just been pulled back in so many ways.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: That makes total sense.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to actually ask you, um, when you know, for all the there's so many brands right now, and I think you made an excellent point earlier about how you know things are it's basically like with digital, it's it's a faster turnover of more content.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I love that.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you you tied in inclusivity with that because I completely agree.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: But one question I do have is how does that work for your end now?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm guessing your uh the amount of pitches you get and the amount of you know emails is just skyrocketed, right?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because of digital.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think any editor will tell you like our inboxes are a mess.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: We get lots of emails, but at the same time, too, I mean, I think that is really a privilege of the job that I never want to take for granted.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's so exciting to be in a position where you're constantly being exposed to new talent and new ideas, whether it's coming from like a freelance writer who has a really unique angle for a story, or you know, somebody who's a publicist who's pitching an up-and-coming client that's maybe doing really innovative things on TikTok.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's definitely hard, but I think, you know, I work with such an excellent team.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody is an island.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really just about like staying in conversation with each other, really keeping our eyes out for people who we think are doing something unique and interesting in the space and have something to offer as either like an expert or just like an enthusiast with a unique point of view.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I it makes sense because I, you know, for me, I always wonder, like in terms of like a brand, like if they're reaching out to an editor, you know, and they're like, well, you know, I have this amazing product or I have amazing, this amazing thing, and they tell you their story.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what does it really take to really catch your eye?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know the brand story matters a lot, you know.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I obviously like the brand story should matter, but like, you know, it it must does it sometimes get lost, you know, because you get so many pitches, right?
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's where that's where I'm curious, is like, are some brands coming through or not, you know, because they're just not being seen, you know, because of the volume.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the volume's one thing, but I also think for me, like I'm always considering what our audience cares about, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we reach, you know, Gen Z and young millennials.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when it comes to like beauty is a space in particular with new brands, if they're speaking to the issues that they care about, like I'm always looking like, do they offer like a truly inclusive shade range?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is sustainability built into their packaging?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it, you know, gender neutral?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Are they catering to like a broad audience?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: All those things I think really do help brands stand out in this day and age.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, consumers are really looking for that.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's so exciting about beauty as a space right now is so many of these big cultural conversations are happening in the beauty space around like inclusion and gender expression and sustainability and being ego-friendly.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I do think there's a lot of ways for brands to get in on those conversations in ways that are organic and genuine and don't feel like, you know, just trying to get in on the zeitgeist.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like just, you know, hop on the train and just you know, the bandwagon and just ride it out.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I completely agree.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you made that point about um, you know, the conversations because you're right, you know, right now, uh and especially, you know, ever since I started this podcast, I've noticed that with Clubhouse coming into the scene, everyone is, I mean, beauty, yes, it's the overlying umbrella term, but under it, you have conversations about literally anything, you know.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And today, just actually just today, I I I was actually um attending a clubhouse event, which was like an editor's um hour, and they were talking about, they were basically like, you know, talking about how, you know, if brands have any questions for editors, like how can we pitch to you?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: How can we collaborate with you better, you know?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's so cool to see that, like this this one-on-one.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I want to ask you though, um, in terms of just branding and all the PR and all the stuff that goes into like a brand new, you know, launch, what are some what what's some advice you have for brands that will would make them stand out to editorial, you know, instead of just focusing on, you know, just consumers, like what would make them stand out to you?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think it's important for anybody launching a new brand to just have a really clear sense of what they're offering and how it's unique in the marketplace.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's what editors are looking for, right?
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are kind of inundated with all of these product pitches.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I really want to know what sets a line apart, whether that's something that has to do with like the founder who might have a really incredible story or a product that's, you know, using a new ingredient that's really of interest.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think there's there's a million ways to stand out.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to kind of boil it down, but I think it's it really comes down to like, what are you doing that does make you stand out?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why, why is there a story to your brand?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Why is there a story to this product?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: How is it relevant in the space today?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for me, it's like that can that can take so many different forms.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's really hard to say, you know, what in particular it might be.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: But like I said, it's like, you know, there's just so many brands out there that are innovating, that are offering something new and different.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think another thing that's exciting about the space right now is there's just so many incredible founders who have their own stories to tell through their makeup and how it's reflecting their heritage or what's important to them.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is also really exciting.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I love that.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I actually want to ask you a question because I want to get your opinion on this.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, everybody talks about things like, you know, cultural inclusivity and um, you know, not stealing other people's culture and making it, you know, into this like brand that all of a sudden is this new, you know what I mean?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like this new discovery when it's really not, and all these different topics, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, one question I have, and I've always wondered this is from the editorial side, I feel like there needs to be somebody, and I don't want to call it policing, but somebody needs to set a bar for brands because it's almost as if, like, you know, for example, sustainability, let's you know, use that as an example.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like if from the magazines and from the editors, if the if brands hear things like, well, we want you to be 100% sustainable, we want this, this is what we're looking for.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, you know, we're not interested.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's you're not doing anything new that somebody else isn't doing.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: If I feel like, you know, how do you feel about that?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like sending that message out from like, you know, just your like like your niche of like, you know, colleagues, like saying, This is what we expect at this point from beauty.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of a two-pronged question or a two-pronged answer, because I think when it comes down to it, like it's really up to consumers who are spending the dollars to kind of push forward what they want to see in the marketplace.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: But from the editorial perspective, if we're gonna serve as the tastemakers and we have a responsibility, um, you know, having the platform that we do and the reach that we do to, you know, spotlight people that we think are deserving, to spotlight brands that we think are ethical, like that's kind of the role that I think we can play.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if you are a business owner, of course, you know, you're gonna be looking at like the bottom line and what sells well and what's really appealing to that customer once once they get the information, you know, from you, when it comes from you and as a brand, or when it comes from the media coverage that you're getting.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and the reason I asked you that was because I'm not gonna lie to you, you know, like every other person, I if I see something in a magazine like Pop Sugar, if I see something that Pop Sugar is recommending or featuring, I'm gonna be more inclined to buy it, you know.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I asked that question is like, yeah, you know, if if like the magazine set the standard almost of saying, no, you know, no more excuses.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: You guys have to be inclusive, you have to be diverse, and you have to be doing something, you know, in in a new and evolved way.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if that would translate down the food chain.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the brand brands would be like, well, crap, you know, we need we need exposure, so we might as well do this right, you know?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think, you know, our beauty editors and our team as a whole is really sensitive to that.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I have to give props to Kelsey Castañan, who's our beauty director, and she has led this really exciting relaunch of the Pop Sugar Beauty Awards this year, and just seeing, like to your point, like, you know, it's so important to us to really have our audience trust our recommendations.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we really do test everything.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: We only want to wanna share things that we fall in love with, and we also want to spotlight, like, you know, women founders and you know, that kind of thing is so critically important to us that I think, you know, anybody in our audience is gonna see that reflected in all of our coverage.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's just it's kind of just like baked into how we want to approach beauty across the board.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I really think at this point it comes pretty naturally to the team.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now I have a question because I know with skincare, there's a lot of brands who've been um featured in other magazines.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I'm not, I I don't, I'm not speaking about pop sugar, but just in general, they've been featured, you know, by a great publication, but then it comes out that, you know, consumers are really mad because something happened where the brand wasn't transparent enough, or they were hiding something, or they're using, you know, ingredients that weren't exactly ideal.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how does that work when something like that happens and you featured that brand maybe like a month ago?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Does that ever like how has that ever happened to you, or do you know anybody that's happened to?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I can't think of a specific scenario right now, but you know, we are we try to be very transparent.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we like I said, we really try to vet the products that we feature um and that we elevate.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I can't really think of a specific scenario where we face that.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think if something were to come up in that way, like our goal is always to just be like transparent and on honest with our audience about those things.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about though in general?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how like on Instagram people start attacking brands?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like they'll just like go on there and just like rant, like about well, I you know, and I bring this up because other I the other month I interviewed um Kendra and we were talking about Alpin Beauty, and you know, she got there's a random message on my um cover art for her episode, and it was somebody talking about like something ridiculous, like they had made up a term, like it doesn't even exist, and like just bashing, you know, a brand.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, like, how do you feel about that?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like people doing that on social media.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I think the the thing with social media, right, is that everybody has a platform, you know, we can't control how people choose to use their platform, but on the flip side, it's really um, I think exciting in the sense that it's made things more democratic.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So people can speak up, people can share their opinions.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, of course, I think there's responsibility that comes with that, and not everybody honors that responsibility.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think, you know, these days I do feel like people are savvy enough about um, you know, navigating the online waters that for the most part, like people know what to take with a grain of salt, what to take very seriously.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, people are savvy, they're smart, they'll they can do their own digging and come to their own conclusions when it comes to, you know, things about like beauty products, which again are very, you know, personal.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's things that I love that work for my skin that might not work for somebody else.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean it's a bad product, it just means it's not right for me.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, if we're talking specifically about beauty products and brands, um, I love reading other people's opinions.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love digging into the science behind ingredients.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I love all of that.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, it's like some stuff just works for you and some stuff does not.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, I want to know what is your process for like specifically skincare brands, like in terms of like vetting the brand, making sure that it aligns with, you know, everything that you you believe in in terms of wanting to feature them.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the process for you?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you go to like a dermatologist and uh, you know, how how does it work?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it really depends.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of our editors do a lot of due diligence to dig into, you know, who founded the brand, um, what ingredients are they using, what is the packaging like?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like all those things that play a role in how we might review um a product, for example.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it really depends on what kind of review you're doing.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think one thing that's really useful about our Pop Sugar Beauty coverage is, you know, you can go to our Instagram where we have almost 2 million followers and see like great tutorials with new products.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to the dot com and read really in-depth articles that are going to educate you on different ingredients and what they do.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think when it comes to sort of like doing the homework, we have such a great network, to your point, of dermatologists and scientists that we can lean on for expert opinions.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if it comes to like a really fun eyeshadow palette, we just want to know if we like the colors, if it works on us, if the pigment's great.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think there's a time and a place for like the super deep dives on, you know, the science behind skincare and also just like the pure enjoyment and entertainment of like makeup on the flip side, right?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, 100%.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you said that.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because skincare is very, I feel like it gets very serious, you know.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: It can.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and another thing too that I think, you know, going back to kind of like sustainability, and of course, there's a lot of debate over like the term, you know, clean makeup, clean beauty products, and how that kind of gets, you know, complicated.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot more nuance than I think we usually hear around it.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I just think that people today, and especially young people, really see like beauty and skincare as a bigger, a bigger element of their overall like well-being and health and self-care.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like today, all of those things, all of that like mental and physical well-being, people are really viewing it as more interconnected than ever before.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it does kind of make your choices of beauty products take on a little bit more weight in that way, right?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you're, you know, you really made a great point there because it like wellness and you know, well-being, self-care is really merging into the beauty, and it's it's great.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to actually um ask you one question because I'm very confused about Gen Z.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna lie to you.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't understand Gen Z.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I ever will, and that's not in a bad way.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just I'm millennial, you know.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to know when it comes to magazines and um editorial, what are some of the things that you've seen that are very different with Gen Z that they like better than like, you know what I mean, like the generation before them?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few different ways you could look at it.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's definitely values that Gen Z um tends to consider really important.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, sustainability, um, inclusion when it comes to gender, race, religion, um, all of those things are really, you know, not trends, but like deep core beliefs that I think we see reflected a lot in what Gen Z gravitates to.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but on the flip side, too, it's like I think it's not just about like how people are radically different as generations, because I think obviously we have a lot more in common than than not.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's also just about like where people are hanging out and spending their time, right?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, TikTok is where a lot of Gen Z conversations and trends are happening.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's important to be in those spaces and to be active in those spaces and learn how to use them and just like learn how to communicate.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, definitely I feel like those themes really resonate with Gen Z.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: We see them being like a really um, you know, socially aware generation, which I think is super exciting.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that just ties into again what I said about like, you know, beauty and makeup and skincare is tying into all of these like bigger picture cultural conversations because of the way Gen Z is really like pushing that forward.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really exciting.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, I'm also a millennial.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm just very inspired to see what the next generation is kind of like, you know, pushing on and pushing for.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um for me, like every day that just like it keeps me, you know, excited to do my job.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, see, I I don't know, I I didn't understand Gen Z because I see random clips of things and I'm like, I don't get it.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I You gotta get it, Ecta.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's super fun.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I hope that if if there's one thing you take away from our conversation today, I hope it's that you get on TikTok and spend some time getting it out there.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just because you told me to, I'm going to, and I'm gonna send you updates that I'm actually doing.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: So much fun beauty stuff.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can go down a rabbit hole of all of the great beauty hashtags, and you'll find so much fun stuff there, I promise.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to do it.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I promise.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: I promise.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, I have a I have a very random question, and I I think this is interesting right now because it's changing so many different industries.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, Reddit is taking over, I feel like, because Reddit is like influencing people.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I do like day trading and stocks, and I know my stocks change because some Reddit, you know, form blue.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and I know that's happening in beauty, and I know there's um some skincare lines that have just, you know, they've flourished because Reddit users have really gotten behind them.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so how does that work?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like incorporating all of this, like I guess a movement, right?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like on a different platform and then incorporating that into your coverage.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have you ever had to deal with that?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're always looking to the conversations on these platforms for inspiration and to see, you know, what people are talking about.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think beauty is such a fascinating space in that way because you mentioned Clubhouse, for example.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: The beauty community has flocked to Clubhouse.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's just a category where people are so passionate and there's so many people who are so deeply educated about beauty and skincare, um, just as like armchair experts.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really exciting to me to just see the enthusiasm around the topic.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I mean, you can you can read extremely long Reddit threads from people who are, you know, debating like the benefits of different skincare ingredients.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like, of course, you know, you still want to rely on our like expert sources, dermatologists, scientists, but there's still so much to be gleaned from like just going on these different platforms, whether it's TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, Clubhouse, and just hanging out and seeing what people are talking about, what they care about.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, right, I think to be a good editor, you have to always be listening.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: You have to always be looking for places to listen.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: So certainly, like so many of our ideas come from like, hey, what are people searching on Google today?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's a hashtag that's taking off on TikTok.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, definitely we mine like every corner of the internet for inspiration.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because Reddit for me has always like lately I've been like, wow, it's like Reddit is the new magazine.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much information.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's people who will like, you know, put together like full-on spreadsheets, like documenting their skincare journey.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's just so much information to explore.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is what happens when you have a pandemic, you know, Lindsay.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: You just you have so much time and people do research, you know.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: We have definitely been spending a lot of time focusing on our skincare and self-care, I think, um, the last year or so, at least speaking for myself.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's definitely true.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, me too.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like applying moisturizer is like a key part of my day now.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, like it's a ritual.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's a ritual, yes.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, no, I love that.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to ask you actually, um, in terms of like all of the, you know, this is kind of a personal question in a way, because I run a podcast as well.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I know a lot of magazines are gravitating more towards um uh like in terms of digital content, more towards now a podcast or some sort of like a a web series or something.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something um that you guys are also gravitating towards?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Does Pop Sugar have something like that too?
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so we have had a ton of amazing brand extensions over the years, whether it's been like with YouTube series, we had a great beauty-themed show called Pretty Unfiltered.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we're on Snapchat trying out some new series there.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're definitely experimenting on Clubhouse.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Kelsey, our beauty director, and our beauty team have done some really fun conversations there.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think, you know, if you work at a digital media company, like I said, you always have to be sort of like testing the waters with every new platform that comes around.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have a great pop culture podcast called Not Over It with our editors Becky and Zareen, which actually I was listening to right before we started and laughing out loud alone in my house.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: They're so funny.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I mean, that's the thing I love about my job too, is like it kind of, you know, being an editor forces you to stay relevant because look, maybe if I was in a different industry, I wouldn't feel kind of like the urgency around like checking out Clubhouse and getting on TikTok.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I love to be able to say, like, that's actually my job.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have to do that to be good at my job.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it keeps life exciting.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I know it's like your it's like your research is the fun.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it really is.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, I want to know um, what what do you do for your own self-care?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what are some of products that you love when you don't have to worry about editorial and you don't have to worry about, you know, testing products out?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: What do you like to do for yourself?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all, of all, I do love to test new things.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I I definitely have my go-to products, but I love to try new things.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's just wrong question for an editor, right?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like well, but I I think any editor you talk to has their like tried and true.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to self-care, I've actually been very obsessed with sleep lately.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually launched a new feature on the dot-com called How Does She Sleep at Night, which is really just talking to inspiring, incredible women about sort of their like window routines and how they approach sleep.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, especially, you know, women who are so busy and accomplish these great things.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just fascinated in terms of like how they prioritize getting rest, because I think you get to a certain point in life and you realize that it's not negotiable.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you want to, if you want to show up in the world and do your best work and help others, you have to take care of yourself in some ways, right?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been fascinating to me.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta share this tip.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Tabitha Brown, who I love, who is delightful.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: People know her, I'm sure she's just a vegan sensation on TikTok, on Instagram.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's an actress, she does it all.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But she gave me the best tip, which I haven't tried yet, but I can't wait to, where she said, when she takes a nap in the afternoon, instead of like laying on her bed like you she normally would, you know, with your feet at the bottom and your head on the pillows, she lays across the bed.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like the best nap ever.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, that is the number one nap tip.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, This is like, this is the kind of stuff I want to find out about people, right?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm gonna try to do that.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Is that not the best?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, like stuff like that is so inspiring to me.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love to pick that up from other people.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then, gosh, in terms of the products that I gravitate to, I I wish it did not work so well.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: But Augustina's bot or the rich cream works so well.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I need to get them on the show.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have been hearing this for months.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just like it's just magical.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I the first time if I run out of a bottle and then I get a new one, it's like the next morning after I use it, I wake up and I just feel like it's like it's kind of like a gentle blurring filter for your whole face.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm obsessed with it, clearly.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love anything with blur.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I also really like um But a skincare's Coco Shea Revitalizing Cream.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: It is like this delightful texture.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It does kind of like feel like butter, and then it melts into this like glorious facial oil as you smooth it on.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that's my go-to.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then the cleanser that I'm I'm using all the time now at night is Emma Hardy's Moringa Cleansing Balm.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: It comes with like a muslin cloth, and I can't remember where I first read about it, but it was definitely an actress had recommended it in a column somewhere, and it's like one of those rare cleansers that really gets all your eye makeup off.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean like all of it.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love a good liquid liner and a lot of mascara in this same, same, yes, takes it off.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I definitely recommend that.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: It smells lovely, it's kind of like a nice little spa ritual to you know use the fancy muslin cloth at night and like take it off.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then other than that, you know, I use tretinoin about once a week.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I try not to wash my face in the morning so much because, you know, as I've gotten older, I feel like when I was growing up, the trend was all like oil-free everything.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm just like, okay, let's get the hydration going.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Bring it up.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: And our skin does not need to be stripped so much.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: I completely agree.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: No, that was such a like late 90s, early 2000s sort of like beauty misconception that I think a lot of us had to unlearn over.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was also it was like over tweezing the eyebrows.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I compared it to that, you know.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, no, I love that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love all the products you mentioned.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've I haven't tried any of them, but I'm going to now, just like I have to get on TikTok because of it.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Please do.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm going to.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I I want to learn more about, you know, obviously beauty and everything that people are really talking about.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate you sharing that with me.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know TikTok was that deep in it.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're already on Clubhouse, so you're ahead of the curve.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok, you just add it to your daily digest.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, we'll see.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I want to actually ask you, Lindsay.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: My last question is I want some advice from you for all of the young women out there, young men out there that want to go into journalism and editorial.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I I think one of one of my biggest goals with this podcast is to educate.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I would love it if you could give us some advice for everybody out there who's listening and wants to go into this career round.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sugarcoat how rough the journalism industry can be.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I've definitely weathered my rocky career years for sure.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's it is a very competitive industry.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And because of the way that digital media works, things are always changing and shifting.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it can be, it can be like a really tough world to sort of navigate.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think the main piece of advice I tend to try to give people is I do think, you know, and I was this way when I was young and starting my career too, people get really caught up in like finding that perfect job.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you'll have a vision of like what your dream job is.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people get really laser focused on finding a role that's like in that exact same industry or in that exact same job track.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, some of the most exciting moments of growth in my career have been when I've taken a risk or tried something that I wasn't sure I would like and discovered that either I did, great, keep going, or I didn't, okay, not gonna do that again.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's just about like looking for the opportunities that come your way, being open to different things.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think there's a lot of different ways to be a writer, to be a storyteller, to be a creator these days, and people can really kind of forge their own paths.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just being open, staying on top of like all of the emerging platforms so that you can, you know, feel really comfortable if you go in for a job interview and they do ask you about TikTok, they do ask you about Instagram, um, all those things are really important.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of ways and a lot of information out there to kind of educate yourself, which is one exciting thing about living in the internet age.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: So just be put in, take risks, take chances, and don't get too hung up on finding the ideal position.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing that.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope everyone listening out there, please take notes.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and if you have any questions for Lindsay, put them in the con the art comments and I will pass them along to her team.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Lindsay.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're awesome, and this has been such a pleasure talking to you.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Ecta.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 37:56
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• 38:00
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• 38:03
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• 38:18
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  SPEAKER_00: We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: We also have a blog on Medium.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast, and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.