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DC Frost Nipping at Your Nose · WriterCon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 2: Take a time, one time to day, get yourself a routine.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: He didn't care if it was three am, eight pm,
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: five am, which ended up being my time. Choose a
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: number of hours you're going to write and do it
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: every single day.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Burnhardt, Award
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: winning author of the Want lnd Files book series.
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich and Ho Ho Ho Writers. Thanks
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: for joining us for another episode of this podcast. I
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: know you're busy. Christmas is just write around the corner.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Hanaka is just writer around the corner, And we very
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: much appreciate you carving out time for this podcast. Just
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: don't get so busy you forget to write every day
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: or as often as possible. We here at the podcast
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: are going to take a holiday hiatus until January, but
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: we'll be back with more episodes after this when in
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. But since we won't be around on
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: the first, I thought this is the time to talk
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: about not only the December holidays, but New Year's as well. Laura,
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: have you got any book related resolutions planned for twenty
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: twenty five?
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: Yes? My resolution for next year is to find more
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: time to write my own books. I have been very
• 1:36
  Speaker 4: blessed with being able to work with a lot of
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: really talented authors this year, which brings me great satisfaction,
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: lots of joy in and of itself when I'm working
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: with someone to edit their book and help bring that
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: into the world. But my time is limited, and so
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: what's happened is I did finish a book and it's
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: out on submission right now, but I would have liked
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: to have had more writing of my own done as well.
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: So that's my plan for next year look a good one.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: I have a little bit better balance, maybe keep helping others,
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: but also allow more time for myself perfection.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: That should be everyone's resolution, Jesse, no pressure, But what
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: are you going to do differently next year?
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm hoping I can continue the momentum that I
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: actually started this week, which is focusing on myself first
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: and then getting my life in order so I can
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: then better help others going forward. So you know, you know,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: self help, not taking on too many things.
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: Well, they do always tell you on the airplane, put
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: the air mask on yourself first, Yes, then take care
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: of other people.
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: It makes so much sense, but it's it really is
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: a tough balance to find because I I do enjoy
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: all the projects that come to me, and it can
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: be very difficult to find enough time for yourself to
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: I get it. I get it.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Give me like getting your life and older enough to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: then be able to spend the time that you want
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: on the creative things that you enjoy doing. That is
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: my goal for twenty twenty five.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: That's a good work life balance. But first the news.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: In today's news segment, we're going to discuss three new
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: publishing platforms and some that may surprise you. Maybe not
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: the first one, because new story number one is about
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Taylor Swift, and who could be surprised by anything she
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: did at this point, Well, she's going to publish her
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: first book, and guess what, She's self publishing it. So
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: next time you hear someone making negative remarks about people
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: who's self published, you can bring up not only JK. Rowling,
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: not only James Batterson to some extent, but also now
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Taylor Swift because her first book Taylor Swift. The Era's
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Tour book is going to be published and distributed by
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: you guessed it, Taylor Swift. It's going to be self
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: published under a new imprint. She's creating Taylor Swift Publications.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: So this billionaire singer, now writer, now prose writer. I
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: should say, she's always written her songs, but she's bypassing
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: traditional publishers and distributing what entirely and releasing it exclusively
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: with Target. Of course, if I could get an exclusive
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: deal with i'd listen. But right, you know, celebrity titles
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: every year bring millions of dollars to traditional publishing. It's
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: one of the most reliable kinds of books they publish.
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: So this is a big deal and could be the
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: start of even a bigger deal, even though it's I
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: don't know why it would be surprising. That's how she's
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: always done. She's always been entrepreneurial, run her own show,
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: and she clearly has the fan base to support it.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: But it is making people wonder if this is the
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: start of something new or just the next step in
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: the diminishing influence of the Big five publishers. I don't know, Laura,
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: what do you think is this good for publishing or.
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: Bad publishing, meaning the big traditional.
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: Publishers sure go that way.
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: I'm sure that they think this is very bad. They
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: would have loved to have had Taylor Swift's book to
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: bring out to the world, So yeah, it's it's not
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: good for them. But I think that we're going to
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: continue to see publishing move in this direction where more
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: people who have the fan base can just bring their
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: own books out and cut out the need for that
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: middle person. And that's unfortunate because you're talking about those
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: celebrity books that's turned into I think a little more
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: of their bread and butter. They've got their back list
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: and their celebrity books, but I think maybe that wasn't
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: necessarily the best way for them to go. They stopped
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: trying to develop new authors and bring out new talent,
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: and we went elsewhere.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and it certainly makes self publishing a bible.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Although is this really different from people like Hugh Howie,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: who you know would let the big five publishers print
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: books but kept the e book rights or JK. Rowling
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: I mentioned before she recovered the e book rights so
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: she could sell them herself, because that just makes sense.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: This does seem like another step forward to me, because
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: Taylor Swift went completely around them, completely, and she has
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: the ability to approach Target and say, hey, I'll release
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: it here with you guys, if you will, if you
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: will have them in your store, And.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Who wouldn't have I bet Target was all over there.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Target did prideam Layer finish the sentence. There's a guest, yes, right, yes,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Taylor says, so, yes, whatever.
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: It is exactly so, she's in an enviable position and
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: he doesn't. Yes, not a business model that will work
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: for the vast majority of us, But I'm thrilled for her.
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: Well not yet. But isn't that how it always starts
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: when we have these paradigm shifts in any industry, There's
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: got to be somebody who who blazes the trail, and
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: it's got to be somebody with some clout like Rolling
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: or Taylor Swift. Jesse, I don't. I know you've got
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: a thing about Jesse, about James Patterson, but I'm not
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: sure how you feel about someone who might actually even
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: be more wealthy and more famous. Are you a secret swifty?
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I'm not secret swifty. I mean again, how you like?
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: How can you have a heart and a soul and
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: not one enjoy her music and two enjoy her success
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: like good for her. I'm I'm happy for her. I'm
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: happy that she's starting her own publishing arm again. I
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: feel like more competition allows for more authors gain their
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: books out there. And you know, just like with like
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Oprah's Book Club, if this is another way for new
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: authors to get a bump because Telshift's like, I want
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: to publish your book that feels like that feels like
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: good and a good addition to our system that we
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: currently have.
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: Well we talk about the Big Five. If I'm not
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: sure this is her groove, but if she wanted to
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: expand this imprint and publish more books, she could be
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: the sixth entry in the Big Five overnight. I suspect.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: And speaking of other people doing similar things, remember former
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: NFL player Colin Kaepernick who started his own publishing company
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: like four years ago, mostly focusing on comic books graphic novels,
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: And now he's launched something called Loomy. That's Lumi, which
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: is going to be a self publishing platform for people
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: writing comic books and graphic novels. He's already raised four
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: million for that, and that of course leads us to
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: my official news story number two, which is about another
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: publishing venture, this one coming from TikTok. Because Byte Dance,
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: the Chinese tech giant company that owns TikTok, They've already
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: been publishing digital books, but now they've got a print
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: imprint they call Eighth note Book Eighth Note Press, and
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: they're going to focus on, of course, the genres that
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: would appeal to the TikTok audience, most meaning romance, romanticy
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: and young adult fiction obviously targeting targeting younger readers and
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: book talk influencers and the people have made Colleen Hoover
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: and a lot of other writers huge. So Laura, as
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: we've been saying, I like it when authors have alternatives.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: I'm always pro author, But at some point, I mean,
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: if TikTok becomes the Big six or Tailor's who if
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: it becomes seven. I mean one of the main reasons
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: people go to traditional publishers is to get their books
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: in bookstores. These TikTok books are probably never going to
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: show up in Barnes and Noble unless they become incredibly popular,
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: but clearly they think they can reach their audience another way,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: meaning through their app is this a good trend for publishing?
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: Well, maybe not for bookstores if we're talking about fewer
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: and fewer books going to the bookstores. But we continue
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: to see things change, and if eventually maybe they could
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: start putting those books in bookstores. I mean, yeah, take care.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: Colleen Hoover and her books are everywhere. We saw her
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: books in Egypt. They're literally everywhere. So in that regard,
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: it could be considered good for them, but not if
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: everyone keeps going around. But again, maybe we're just gonna
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: We're going to see a little shifts in the business
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: and how it works and how those books wind up
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: in those bookstores.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: It seems like there's a difference though, between you know,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: book talk influencers saying go buy this book by Colleen
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Hoover at your bookstore and TikTok now starting their own
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: imprint Eighth Note Press, which you know might get in books.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: You know you're not going to see Burns and Noble
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: offering anything that was published by Amazon, right, That's never happened,
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: never will happen. I don't know if they'll be similarly
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: hostile to TikTok or not. So I should ask you, Jesse,
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: because you are a complete TikTok addict. I know, and uh.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Love making what love the TikTok again? TikTok probably the
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: most distracting thing I could ever do. Really Yeah, yeah,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: just instant videos like it's it's bad.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I was just kidding. But okay, Well, would you buy
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: a TikTok published book?
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean, if it's a book I'm interested in,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: I don't care who publishes it, and there we care
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: if I can write it.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: That's the thing a lot of people who are in
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: our world don't realize because you know, we're all, oh,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: I got this publisher or that publisher. But most people
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: buying books, especially online, they noticed the author's name, they
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: read the book description. They don't notice who published it.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: They don't care who published.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: No, why why would any like, why would any reader care?
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, trestiese factor is I think dispear.
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: More importantly, I think it used we as authors used
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: to believe that that coveted book deal with a larger
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: publisher would result in greater sales. Higher visibility getting into
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: the bookstores meant more. But we talked about a couple
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: of episodes ago. We talked about where the majority of
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: sales are coming from and so many of the sales
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: are coming from digital versions of books now, so it's growing.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: It's a smaller and smaller revenue source, and I think
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: it's not going to Maybe the TikTok publish, the Taylor
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: Swift published, these other publishers can start to get you
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: more of that visibility. Those might become the more covetive
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: book publishers as we move forward, because they're going to
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: result in what we're really after, which is more visibility
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: and more book sales.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Right, So here's the takeaway for you writers out there.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: The book world is changing. All the ideas, predispositions, prejudices
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: you may have formed forty years ago or twenty or
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: even ten, we do not live in that world anymore.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: The publishing world has changed, it will continue to change,
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: and you need to stay on top of what's going on.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: Can change with it when appropriate, so you can get
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: your books out there. Okay, Well, today in Kraft Corner
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: we have Desiree Duffy, a longtime friend of this podcast.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: She's Got She of course runs Black Chateau and Books
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: That Make You. She is the go to expert on
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: the subject of bookmarketing. Marketing and since we're rapidly approaching
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: the new year, she's going to offer some tips on
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: marketing your book in the coming year. In the New Year,
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: take it away Desiree Craft Corner.
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: The new year is a pivotal time for books, readers
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: and writers because our focus shifts to what's coming next,
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: and in times of dramatic change, we often also look
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: for sources of comfort, escape, and knowledge. That's where books
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: come in this twenty twenty five, maybe more so than ever,
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: Every new year has folks stocking their reading list or
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: there to be read list. Want to see what people
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: are putting on theirs, Search TBR as a hashtag and
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: see what's trending on various social media platforms. This means
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: you're using the TBR hashtag to do a bit of
• 16:19
  Speaker 5: your own market research. What books are trending in genres
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: like yours. Notice any trends that you can take advantage
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: of in the new year. Are there other authors who
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: are similar that you can position yourself with? Then use
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: the TBR hashtag in your own campaigns. If you are
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: releasing a book in twenty twenty five, use hashtag TBR
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: and hashtag TBR twenty twenty five to jump on the
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: hashtag bandwagon. Then consider writing blog content and posting it
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: to your own website with your TBR recommendations for readers
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: who enjoy your book's genre or similar subject matter. Posts
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: like this, often called listicles, are a favorite among the
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: reading communities, and as a marketer, I know listicles can
• 17:11
  Speaker 5: have far reaching and even viral results. Example, let me
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: break this down for you. If you happen to have
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: a new novel coming out, let's say it's a dystopian
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: and it's releasing in twenty twenty five, list several popular
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: other dystopian novels that are also coming out. Add in
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: some from similar authors or from your friends, associates, or
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: the writers that you might know from writer con or
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: your writing group, and for good measure, throw in a
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: classic or two. Then use that blog post as part
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: of your content strategy and post it several times between
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: December and even into late January. Remember use the hashtags
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: and pro tip. Many readers who create a team do
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: so far in advance. Try and hit them while they're
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: planning theirs in late twenty twenty four, host the blog
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: with your listical with all those other books. Post it
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: on social media several times, and if you have author
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: friends in this list, ask them to do the same together.
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: You're stronger. And you can also boost or advertise it
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: on meta or on other advertising platforms that you may use,
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: and put the listicle in your email, newsletter or substat
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: however you reach your fan base. Shout out your TBR
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: twenty twenty five. I'm Desire Duffy, founder of Black Chattel,
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: the book Fast and Books that Make You. We promote
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: a lot of books using listicles like this in the
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: new year and throughout. Ever need a hand in your
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: book promotion, don't hesitate to reach out. Thank you to William,
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: Laura Jesse and the whole writer Con podcast team for
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: inviting me to share during this craft Corner.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: DC Frost, welcome to the podcast.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Just wonderful to be here.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to call you Denise from now on.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Is that okay? Because that is good calling somebody DC.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: It's just like you don't know him very well. Plus
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: to me, DC means comic books. We don't want to
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: get off on the wrong tangent. I mean, I'm actually
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: wearing this right now, so.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I have a comic book character in my book, and
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: my name is actually yes, I do, and my name
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: is Denise Cecilia. But that always sounds like when my
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: mom would call me and get mad at me.
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: So I get that.
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: I get that.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: All right, Well, we have a traditional first question. If
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: you could offer writers one piece of advice, what would
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: it be.
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you what my therapist showed to
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: me during the pandemic.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: This is the first. Okay, Yes, well I.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Had I actually had a very dear friend who had cancer,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: and I I did take I did listen to a
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: therapy or I actually worked with therapists for a long time.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And one of the things he told me when I
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: said I'm having trouble writing, and he was absolutely right,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: pick a time, one time a day, get yourself a routine.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: He didn't care if it was three am, eight pm,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: five am, which ended up being my time. Choose a
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: number of hours you're going to write and do it
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: every single day, and your muse will show up if
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: you're there. And it's true. I started writing, I was
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: probably about three quarters of the way through the book,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: which i'd been for many, many, many many months, and
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: that really propelled the book forward, helped me rewrite it,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: help me finish it. It was just everything. And it
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: also just gives you a routine and a rhythm. And
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: if you show up, your writing will show up.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's terrific advice. All Right, we're going
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: to talk about your new first book. But before you
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: got to this point, you had other jobs and impact.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: You did a lot of work for nonprofits, right.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: I did.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: I worked for many years for Public Television, a local
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: station case Et in Los Angeles, which doesn't really exist anymore.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: And I also worked for Public I actually worked for PBS.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: We had a group, a sponsorship group, so that was
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: very exciting. And I worked for Variety for a short
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: period of time before I worked at a small Yeah,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: it's it was. It was eye opening. And then I
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: worked for a small liberal arts college in Los Angeles.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: Did you write for Variety? Were you interviewing celebs or anything?
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: Cool?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: I was actually working No, I wasn't doing anything cool.
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: I was actually working in it's a cool job.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: It's cool. It's cool.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I was working in marketing. But actually, how places like
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Variety at that time made their money was to focus
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: on a producer, a star, a director, and you would
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: do a special on them, meaning that there'd be a
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: story on them, and of course you would sort of
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: leverage every all their friends and their working colleagues to
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: honor them by taking out an ad And so that's
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: what I did. And I have to say I expected
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: the writers to be all like wonderful and happy, and
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I thought, this is going to be so exciting. I'm
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: going to meet all these writers. But in Hollywood it
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: kind of works a little bit differently. It's not so
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: much fun working for I think in entertainment magazine and
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: then working with the studios. It's a pretty tough job actually,
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and you're still recording news. So I had a real
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: eye opening experience doing that, but it was exciting.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: How did you get interested in writing, because it sounds
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: like you already had enough to do.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Really, Ever since I've been a kid, I've written. I
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: would watch TV shows and write scripts. And then when
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: I was learning the guitar when I was about twelve,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I learned by writing songs. It just that's the way
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I learned. And so I started writing short stories, and
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I've had about four or five literary stories published in
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: journals around the United States. Had a mentor, so I've
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: always written. It's been really important to me. But I
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: loved mysteries when I was I started with Nancy Drew
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: and wrapped up to Agatha Christie in high school, and
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: then during the pandemic, I reread every Agatha Christie and
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: I just I like to see the world, and first
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: of the world is mysterious, and I like to see
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: the world through mysteries. And I like to explore regions.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: When I go to a different area, I like to
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: pick up something by a local author because you get
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: the sense of a place, how it is to live there.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: And somebody gets murdered, but you know what, can you say?
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: It is a mystery after.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: All, this mystery.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: So that brings us to this great, wonderful new book,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: your first book, yes, called A Punishing Breed. Tell us
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So it takes place on a small liberal arts campus
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: in the heart of Los Angeles, and it explores just
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the kind of a melting pot of what Los Angeles is,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: but also what a small liberal arts college is, particularly
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: a residential campus, where you've got the trustees, who I
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: think are sort of the overseers of this world. You've
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: got the faculty who are. I'm not going to say
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: they're indentured servants, but they're indentured in some ways because
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: they tend to spend their career there, so their connection
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: to that institution is much different than the people who
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: are passing through the staff. And then you've got the
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: students who are there for four years and want to
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: make their mark and a lot of protests, a lot
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: of a lot of like learning and trying to really
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: discover themselves. So it's just a very interesting sort of
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: like environment that I think you can introduce a lot
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: of themes and thoughts into. So there's a character who
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: obviously is but it also explores what it really means
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: to belong to a place and how you actually negotiate
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: that and discover yourself through being in a particular place.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: That's really I think focused on self discovery and learning.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: I can't help but notice you mentioned working for at
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: a small liberal arts college, and now you're describing the
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: setting and your book as being one is there. Did
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: you kind of infuse the story with some of your
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: actual experiences or was this just kind of something you're
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: familiar with and decided it was a good place to
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: place the story.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: I think more just felt it was a place that
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I could place. It was a setting I could place
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: the story, and really the characters there are an amalgam
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: of different people I've met throughout my career. And I
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: think that when you're younger and you want to work
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: at nonprofits, you think it's going to be a completely
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: different experience than working at a four profit, and I
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: think it's really not. I think human beings are human beings.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: And I think there's that uh that you know that
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: that quote. I think that people say it's by Henry Kissinger,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: but I think it's about something else about You're in
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: this small liberal arts college and it's just as vicious
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: anywhere else. But what is it? It's that but that
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: the uh, the the the challenges are are there, but
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: the what it's worth is very small. What he was
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: trying to say, it doesn't really matter.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, academic politics are the worst because the stakes are
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: so low.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 26:42
  Speaker 5: That's it.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: That's it.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So I thought that was fascinating. I think that's a
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: fascinating thing because it doesn't really matter where you are,
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: that you're you're still dealing with human beings who are
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: some are good, some are not, some are you know, thoughtful,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: some are not. So I just used that, but I
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: think really a lot of characters came from people I've
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: known throughout the years, and also being Latino half Latino,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: I really wanted to explore what it feels like to
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: be sort of connected to your culture, but to be
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: two or three generations away from it, and so you're
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: always trying to figure out how that plays into your
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: thoughts in your life. And you've got your grandparents who
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: are close to who maybe from Mexico, but you're not,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: And so how does that really work, you know, in
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: your life, and how does that influence you.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: Speaking of characters, tell us about your protagonist.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: So dj Arius is my protagonist, and he is not
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: particularly a very happy, go lucky guy. In fact, a
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: lot of people think he is a terrible person, but
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: he does have an arc. I think by the end
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: of the book he does change a little. And I
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: really wanted to write a character that was male because
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of men write characters that are women,
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: and I wanted to really explore what that felt like
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: to be a woman writing a male character. And I
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: wanted the women in my story to be protagonists and
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: to be smart I really sometimes bristle at mysteries that
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: are for women, where women can't really see that the
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: person there with is like a jerk, controlling and yes,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: and all these friends and everybody telling this person.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: Here blind to it.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, blind to it. So I really wanted to turn
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: it on its head and maybe have the male character
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: be that, but also be someone who has to learn lessons,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: maybe over and over again, like we all do.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: Yes, I like it. That's good. So what does a
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: typical writing day look like for you? You mentioned your
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: music comes at five am? So what how can you
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: talk to us about your process a little bit? I'm
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: an eye owl, and so every time I hear someone
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: say that they're a five am writer, I just I
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: just cringe.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: A little bit.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: But please sure your process with us.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not so hard because my husband is also
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: he's a reporter, so he gets up about four point thirty,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: so we're kind of an early rise house. And I've
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: always been a morning person. So I get up about
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: five o'clock. I go into my office. I write for
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: at least two hours, but if things are good, it'll
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: go longer than that, maybe three hours. And I've just
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: recently retired, so I am extending that time and then
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: I toodled around and then I rewrite and I'm just
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: actually getting used to not having a day job. So
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: that's been very interesting. Thank you, it's been It's been
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: really an interesting transition. I'm still trying to get to
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: normalize it. I've had some family issues here with some
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: health with my mom, so we're trying to get into
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: a routine. But I really do believe that showing up
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: for your writing is so important. And to me, if
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I can write, I feel like my life has more
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: meaning and it's more just because I understand things better
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: when I sort of write them. And I find that
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: that being a writer, and you know, both of you,
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: I think maybe we all have that same experience where
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: we write something and we go back and look at
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: it a year later and think, oh, I discovered something,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: and I had discovered it, but I didn't realize it
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: it was through my writing. And so I think that,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: you know, exploring, I think we work out a lot
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: of issues in our writing that maybe aren't so conscious,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: but we realize later that that that's what we're doing.
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: It's a fair point, and I know I get very
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: restless and anxious and can't be still when I'm not writing.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: When when I'm not allowing that process to come through
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: for me, I get very uncomfortable. So I do think
• 30:51
  Speaker 4: as writers, we need to be writing or we just
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: will not be satisfied.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I think that's true.
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, here's a question I always ask everyone. Are you
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: a panther or a planner? And do you know what
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: I mean by panser? Do you write by the seat
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: of your pants or do you kind of start with
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: an outline and then move forward from there.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I'm a pancer. So I started writing literary fiction, and
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I had a mentor and he really believed that it's
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: in your you write and the answer will come as
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: you work through your story. And then when I did
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: start writing a novel, I thought, well, that's crazy because
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: suddenly you're in the middle of you know, one hundred
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: pages and you're like, where is this going? But it's
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: very interesting. I don't know you've I'm sure you've read this.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: I know you all read this book by Stephen King
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: on writing. And I had read all these books you
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: should outline, you shouldn't outline, and I just did not
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: want to outline. And I read the Stephen King book,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: and I really liked what he said. You know, he said,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: it's like flying on a trapeze and you go and
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: if you don't let yourself fly, you won't discover these
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: things that are out there in the air. And I
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: love that sort of analogy of just like discovering things.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: And I do think he's right. I think that you
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: realize that suddenly you're writing chapter thirty and you realize, oh,
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: that directly correlates back to chapter two, where you had
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: this symbolic sort of thing in there. And I feel
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: like that does happen in a way, your first draft
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: becomes your outline. And when you go back, like when
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I'm three quarters, Yeah, when I'm three quarters the way through,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: which I did in my first book, and I'm doing
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: now in my second book, I'm rewriting it, and I realized,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, that is your outline.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: I'm cutting off.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: You cut a lot of stuff away, but that wouldn't
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: have been there, I think if I had planned it
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: all out. But I think you just have to do
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: what's best for you, what you really feel comfortable with,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: and what you really what makes you feel like you
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: are really getting to the truth of the story.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: I think that's the most important thing. When people tell
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: me that they just absolutely can't outline, I say, well,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: then don't, because if it hinders you from writing at all,
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: then it's not a good tool. So I think it's
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: important to find where you fall on that spectrum and
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: work within it. Just like when you write, you have
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: to find what works for you and go that way,
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: that route.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: I think what you said is really important. I'm sorry,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I know I think this is so important because I
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: hear people say this. You know, I think you write,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: just write because and you're right, don't let anything stop
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: you from writing. And that's why I think it's so
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: important to have an appointment with yourself. You can always
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: go back and you can rewrite it, or you can
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: say this will lead you to somewhere else, and maybe
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: that first page you wrote will disappear. But I you know,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: so many people say they want to write, and they
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: just become paralyzed by actually sitting up writing. Yeah.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: I have someone at a conference once come up to
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: me after having just listened to someone say that you
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: have to get up at five in the morning, which
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: works great for you, Husza, but he came up and said,
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: I can't get up that early, so I guess I
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: can't be a writer. And I was like, that's the
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: wrong message to take from this. Where can you write
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: just fine time and make it for yourself?
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Absolutely? Well, my best friend's a late night person, so
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: I think it's whenever you have that ability to concentrate
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: and do whatever you need to do.
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: That's all. Yeah, all right, one last question, Denise, what's next?
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: I'm guessing this is the first book in a series, right,
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: it is seven ext we'll see more.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so dj Aris is coming back, and I'm I've
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: set the beginning in Mexico City because we have family
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: there and I find that city to be fascinating. And
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: then it also moves into more what the entertainment industry
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: is in Law Angelos in California, because it is an
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: industry and it's a hard working one, and I think
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: you see a lot of times Los Angeles portrayed it's
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: a glitzy place, when really it's a pretty hard working place.
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: My son is works for a director, and you know,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: if he works fourteen fifteen hours a day, it's not
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: you know, it's not like a drug adult movie stars
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: running around. I mean maybe part of that is but
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of very hard working people that you know,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and this is a very big industry, and I feel
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: that California and Los Angeles is sometimes portrayed in a
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: way that makes it seem not as hard working and
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: not as creative and not as industrious as it really is.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: So that's one of the things I really would like
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: to change.
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: Sure, well, we will anxiously await the release of that
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: second book. Maybe we can get you back to talk
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: about that. Denise, thanks so much for being on the podcast.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. First of all, let me
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: remind you that your hosts have written Christmas books, and
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: when would be a better time to read them than
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: right now. I wrote that book Hovering over my Shoulder
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: the midnight before Christmas a few years ago, but I
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: got to tell you it's still one of my favorites
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: if you choose to read it. And you're wondering, where
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: did you get this wacky idea for the ceramic coopie dolls.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: That's what my grandmother Bernhardt used to give me every
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: year for Christmas. There's also Christmas Tapestry, an anthology of tales,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: including one by me. Authors writing Christmas stories involving their
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: series characters. And Lara's fifth book in the Wantland File series. Right,
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: that's Christmas, it isn't it.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: Yep, seventh book but fifth in that series. Absolutely correct.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Right, And while you're in the Christmas period, remember what
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Jesse was saying earlier. Don't get so wrapped up in
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: the shopping and the hustle and the bustle that you
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: forget to take time for yourself and your family and
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: the things that actually matter most, including your writing. Right
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: every day if you can, even Stephen King claims he
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: takes off Christmas, but remember the things that are most
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: important to you and your heart as well. All right,
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: until next time, keep writing and remember you cannot fail
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: if you refuse to quit. Merry Christmas, everybody, see you
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: next year.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: A psident spent