Latest / The Rave Social Podcast / 66 How to Stop Hiding in Your Business with Kayla Dean

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66 How to Stop Hiding in Your Business with Kayla Dean · The Rave Social Podcast

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Rave Social Podcast.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Jaden.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: You all know this by now, and today we have a special guest, Kayla Dean.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Kayla Dean is a copywriter and messaging strategist with a master's degree in English literature and seven years of conversion expertise.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: She's spent her career studying the way words work, from the way Hemingway mastered brevity to the way Austin wielded wit.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: She writes words for creatives and service providers centered in human authenticity, storytelling, and real connection.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Kayla.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm so excited to have you on today.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we connected over threads, um, thinking of people we wanted on the podcast this uh late summer and fall.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what one thing that's really interesting about you is that you just went through your Saturn return, right?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And during that time, you kind of went through a personal rebrand, but also a business rebrand.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I'm just curious how that was for you.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh my gosh.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I guess I should like probably define Saturn returning for people who don't know.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, um, and this is coming from someone like I'm not an astrology professional at all, but it's just kind of a concept I really identified and related to.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, it's like when Saturn um comes back into the same place in your orbit as like when you were born.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so this happens like when you're approximately right around like 29, 30 years old.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I was reading somewhere too, because this happened to me like after I turned 30, and I was like, wait, like, shouldn't this have happened to me already?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I was reading something somewhere that said, Oh, actually, this can kind of like take place over two to three years, it can kind of drag out a little bit.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of basically every time this happens in your life, because this can happen like two to three times in your life, because it's approximately every 30 years, it's kind of a call for you to sort of um like look at your life and reflect upon things.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Am I in my authenticity?
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Am I, you know, really going in the direction I want to go in?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is my life where I want it to be?
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, before I even really knew what it was, I found myself doing that in my business.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, kind of feeling like things were off.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was about like two years ago that I was kind of feeling like things were a little bit off for me.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was going, like, what's what's going on?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I had already booked like I guess you could say a rebrand.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's always like such like a mixed bag because sometimes I want to call it a rebrand and sometimes I I don't, or sometimes I call it a kind of a reinvention.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was feeling like a little bit off about my business and I couldn't really pinpoint why.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, you know, I think I want to do something different with the visual look, but maybe the messaging is off too.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I need to write the copy because you know, I wish write my own copy, but I was like getting super stuck on it.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it was just kind of like a weird, it was a weird time in business to come through for sure.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like just everything feeling maybe like misaligned and confusing and not clear what the path forward is.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can very much relate to that.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: I just started my Saturn return, I think, I think in January.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, it's just been a process of like figuring out who I am, where am where am I going?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: What are my values?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like a re it's kind of like a reflection on, at least for me, it feels like my 20s of like what worked, what didn't, like what do I want to take with me, what do I not?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is I'm about to step into a new decade, a new era.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what is coming?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: What's staying?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I really feel you on that.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm curious if there was ever a moment where it did feel like things clicked, or if it was more of just like a slow discovery.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and what you what you did with that.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was a really slow discovery.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: It took a long time.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it was kind of like summer of 2024.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was going, like, you know what?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I need to do something a little bit different.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like my website's feeling really off, like my visual brand, like I I like it and I get compliments on it all the time, but like, you know, maybe something here needs to shift, like not totally change, but just shift in some way.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think where that was coming from, because this is something I preach to my clients all the time, usually that's coming from a deeper level.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think when, you know, we feel this call to rebrand, we usually are feeling something like a deeper level of misalignment, or you know, maybe your business has like grown past you a little bit or you've evolved as a person.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's like a lot of factors there, but usually it's coming from this like deeper call that I always find.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I was sitting there like, okay, great, I need to like write my copy and figure out what I'm going to say.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think always, it's always the hardest to write for yourself, even if you do this all the time for clients, to do this all the time for other people.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, it was really hard for me to figure out what do I want to say because you know, I was sitting there kind of like trying to work on my messaging.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to say?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want the core and the center of this to be?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and then I kind of looked back on it and I was like, this none of this really like says anything about me.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like, oh, here's some great things about my process, but it's not really saying anything about like why me or my story or what can I do or anything like that.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to go back to the drawing board several times to kind of think about what it was that I really wanted to say.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really only like when the messaging started to take shape that everything else started falling into place.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say it took, it was, it was like a year of feeling very out of alignment.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it was until, you know, I came out with my new, you know, sort of refreshed brand.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because some of my brand marks are like the same, but we just kind of like, you know, retouched them and and made a few changes.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't so much that those were different, you know, we brought in some new colors, you know, my my website had some like new texture and and movement and feeling to it.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like when the messaging came together, everything else could start to make sense.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, yeah, so it was it was a long process.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't sound like there was just a moment where you're like, aha, like this is the direction, everything makes sense.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Now I just need to execute.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like it was more of like a building process over time, refining, questioning, and just making like small changes.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like that actually, because I do feel like there's a lot of it's I feel like so silly and dramatic saying pressure, but like there is pressure to have it figured out and know exactly what you want and be absolutely dialed, especially in the online business space.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think that's realistic.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I don't think that that's realistic or normal.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you don't see that in bigger corporations and businesses.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: It takes collaboration, it takes um compromise everyone's input and ideas.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just like there's one right way, and once you've unlocked that, everything unravels.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's unhealthy the pressure that we put on ourselves to just know it, know exactly what to say, know exactly what to do, know exactly what you want everything to look like.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that that's normal.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with that so much.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we expect ourselves to have this like perfect moment of like, aha.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I mean it happens sometimes.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, sometimes it's almost like micro moments of like, oh yeah, okay, figured it out.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not usually like one big, like this one singular moment changed everything.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think, like you said, we put so much pressure on ourselves to kind of have that where it's like, it's like these small pivots over time and these little decisions that kind of compound over like the days and weeks and months, and it's not always one decision or one thing.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the movement of that over time and like taking your business in a direction that you want it to go very intentionally.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like such a such a personal process too.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes the hardest part is like um, it's always that outside, it can be outside perspective, but it can also be internal reflection.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of a mix of those things.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree, which actually kind of brings me to another question I have for you that's on a more broad scale, like not necessarily about your specific brand, but also what you do for clients.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you do talk about themes like authenticity, inner truth, nervous system work.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like those are things people don't necessarily associate with marketing and business development.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious, how do you bring those things into your business and your clients' businesses?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: And what is the result of doing that?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just find like as a copywriter that's been doing this for a really long time, you know, messaging, copy words like it lands the most when it sounds like it's it's coming from you.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you are hiring a copywriter, I mean, I do this for so many people, even if you are hiring someone, you know, you really want it to sound like it came from you.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's so important.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like anytime that I work with my clients, I really, you know, want to get to know them and understand exactly like, you know, what they value, what are their goals.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I always love to ask people like, what's a life goal that you really want your business to help you to accomplish?
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I think sometimes we forget that, you know, we don't get into business to just like you know, be working all the time or like be, you know, business series, you know, serious business people all the time.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we, you know, got into this to enjoy our lives and have freedom and you know, have have money to do the things that we want to do.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I love to ask people that kind of thing.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I love to know like how how people talk, what's important to them, and you know, really weaving that into their copy too, and making it feel really personal and making it come from them because you know, I just find for you know, small businesses, and I mean this can apply whether you're just like you're just you, or even if you have a small team and you're kind of like, you know, the face of your business, like that that still applies.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Having that personal touch is so important because, you know, I think especially like um, you know, in the in the age of AI where everything is, you know, feeling very um, you know, robot, yeah, feeling robotic, you know, it's important for things to feel like they came from you.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and it's funny, I think that like since I work with clients, you know, it might be like, oh, you know, um, you know, you might think, you know, people should just hire you.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: But no, I really think it's important for founders to be connected to their their messaging and to their words and and kind of have their touch on it.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: When I work with clients, it's you know, it's very collaborative.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love to have like their comments on documents, I love to have like a dialogue with them.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I find that the people I work with um love being super connected to the words.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: It like really matters to them how it how it comes about.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Not only that, like it gets them results, of course, but that also it sounds like something they would really say and it feels very true to them.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's so valuable.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like having personality and having like your own flavor and your own spice and your own take is uh just the most valuable thing I think you can have right now.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't even have to get into AI discussions, but like even you know, like because of AI, that is a challenge.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I think over time people are really going to refine the way the words that they put out, whether they're using AI or not, they are going to have much more of a of a grasp on what they want to sound like and what they want to say, because they know like it's so easy to blend in and sound the same as everyone else.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I completely agree with that.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm curious what when you got to the end, like looking back now, your rebrand is done, or your reimagination or your reinvention um of yourself is done.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious what are some of the things that you really saw change now that you're on the other side of it?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was doing this, now I'm doing that, or I used to say things like this, now I say things like a new way.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: This, you know, it's so funny because like looking back on my rebrand, like at the time, like, you know, I was writing a lot of things about like um, you know, wanting to like burn down my business and burn everything down.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that was kind of like the energy that I was in uh last, like early last year.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: That was like a huge, you know, sort of energy for me.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I think probably a lot of people were in that place, not everybody, but I think a lot of people were.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's so funny looking back.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I kind of laugh now because I'm like, I still offer like a lot of the same services I did before this, and it was so weird for me to go like it wasn't like I like completely changed my services or anything like that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just realized that the way that I was talking about things, like I feel like I didn't capture the depth of of what I do.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think for a long time I really wanted to bring in that like, you know, literary craft element.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, I went to school for for English and that really informed the the work that I did after that.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I came out of uh grad school having done a lot of like uh, you know, magazine writing and article writing, and I worked in a literary magazine for a while and I'd done, you know, a lot of that kind of stuff.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: I hadn't done copywriting so much.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And when I first got into copywriting, you know, those worlds felt so different.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: It felt like, okay, I was writing words to kind of, you know, like persuade or make a point to tell a story, and then it was like, oh, now we're selling.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like hard for a while to kind of make the connection between these two worlds.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that there was a connection there somewhere, and I was like having a really hard time connecting them together.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I know that this is serving me, but I can't I can't quite explain it.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think being able to own that a little bit more was like a big, a big thing that I did.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would hear people say a lot of things like, okay, don't make your website a novel, you know, you don't kind of just say like people don't read anymore, don't make it a novel, don't make it too long.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, I mean, it doesn't have to be long for it to have, you know, to use kind of the craft and storytelling strategies that like make fiction so irresistible.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not so much that it has to be like long and be a novel, it's like making it compelling, like making it read like the same way that you would like pick up a book and be like, oh my gosh, I have to know how this ends.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Applying that to, you know, your website, your marketing, your messaging, like all that kind of stuff.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so just like being able to own that a little bit more was like a big deal for me.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was always afraid people would be like, oh wait, like how do these things go together?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But they totally do.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like you just kind of learned like you were able to make connections in your business that maybe before like felt disjointed and that came across in your own messaging.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think for a long time, like I had kind of like named my business, you know, thematically, going like I feel like these things are related.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that had I renamed my business like during COVID.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's so crazy because I that re-brand when I did that.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, you know, I signed up to do it, you know, late on in 2019.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: And by the time it was coming out, it was like right in the middle of COVID, and it was like such a weird time.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I had named the business back then, and it took me a really long time to be like, oh, like these are the threads.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think back then I was like, oh, I don't know if I want my name to be like the one at the top of the page, and then and then it kind of evolved into something a lot more nuanced.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think pulling the threads that were like they were set in motion a long time ago, being able to pull the threads now and and be able to own it and be like, wait a second, yeah, I I am doing that.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: That does work.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, drawing connections and like not just drawing connections for myself, but also making it a little bit more clear in my own marketing, like how how that actually applies um was like a big deal.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So other people could see it too.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that makes so much sense.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel now?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel really good.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like a lot more um settled in in what I'm I'm doing.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been I've been doing this for I'm coming up on eight years.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now, next month is um August is like the anniversary of um of when I started my business.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I always tell people I kind of like fell into to business.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really know I was starting a business.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've really it's it's been hard at times, but I've really I've really loved it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of like the work that I've done.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels good to, you know, be more settled and and making new goals and kind of going, okay, like I've I've got this brand of kind of you know built this foundation and now it's like you know, taking those building blocks and building it into more marketing and you know, spreading, spreading the word and getting out there with it more, I think has been um you know my new focus this year.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just visibility and getting in front of, yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think visibility is huge for a lot of people this year.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm curious what you learned from that process and how it changed how you approach clients.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like if a client were to come to you where you were a year ago, how would you navigate that?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it reminded me how um like deep and personal this work can feel because you know, we always hear people saying, Oh, you know, I want a new website or I want a new logo or you know, I want, you know, my website to grab more attention, or you know, I don't even be saying this or that on Instagram, but it's like, you know, usually the work is, you know, it is deep and it's so funny because, you know, it's like I was saying earlier, it might not even be changing your services.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes it is.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it is like, okay, I need to not offer this service, I need to bring this in, I need to, yeah, you know, sometimes it's raising your prices or whatever.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, it wasn't, it wasn't really that so much.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was like the way I was talking about it just completely wasn't in line with me at all.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I think it's it's again like having that focus on making sure it really sounds like it's coming from them, being really clear on what it is that we want to accomplish.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: What do we want this messaging to do for them?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, really having that engagement and connection with the words, I think that's that's something I really want.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: I want the people I work with to have a real connection with it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, ideally when you do and you go, wow, this is, you know, this is like even better than I thought.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had an idea in my head, but this is like taking it even like to the next step.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, that's the foundation of being able to go out there and and own it.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, do you feel like when clients come to you and they aren't, they're not sure?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you feel like they should get to the point where they do kind of know where they want to go before hiring a copywriter?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Or is it something that you specifically are good at to help them uncover that on the journey?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what I'm saying?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, should they already come to you knowing, or can you support them?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had like both situations.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: I've had people come in who they know and they just can't express it.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like they could probably, you know, sit here and and talk to me and and tell me more about it, and they're like, but I just don't know how to say it, or I'm not sure how to.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I usually find that people struggle with like balancing a few different worlds or a few different things.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um, sometimes I work with people who are very multi-passionate and they have a lot of different threads in their life or their career, and they're like struggling to unite them together, but I can kind of go, I I can see this thread, I know exactly where this is going, and I can I can weave these things together in a way that makes sense, kind of weaving the you know, the tapestry of how all these different threads go together.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then, yeah, then there's the person that's like, oh, I know, but I don't know how to say it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the person that's like they've they've got something, but they're, you know, kind of probably overthinking it.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're they're kind of thinking, like, okay, um, you know, I need to figure this out.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I've had people who like they're not completely sure why they're different.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: They they on some level, if they're hiring me, they know that like they've got the potential, they know something's there, they know if they were to put more work or effort into this, like something would come out of it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also just having that outside perspective for me to be able to see them and be like, oh yeah, this is this is the thing.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes I find that people are often like burying really good ideas.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, if I've audited people's websites or I look at their, you know, kind of brand presence and I'm like, here's this amazing thing.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you so under the radar with this?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you bearing like carrying it?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people will kind of like minimize themselves or minimize their own ideas.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Without like really knowing they're doing it.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it can sometimes take someone seeing you from an outside perspective to be like, no, you do have it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we need to own this more.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to like extract this and maximize this.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like, this is the headline.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is not the thing at the bottom of the page.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's so interesting.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and when you are writing for clients, um, I'm curious if what your thoughts are on being like formulaic.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously, there's like there's copywriting formulas, they're proven, etc.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's also a lot of pressure to like follow those things.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes that can stop people because they're like, I don't know, I just want to like spill my guts.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know exactly how to make it sound like work correctly or whatever.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm so curious when you're helping clients with messaging, especially messaging that they want to convert, how do you balance the structure and the formula with the flow of their personality and who they are?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, that's such a good point.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is such an intersection of like, okay, like, you know, there's kind of these, like, we've used these copywriting strategies forever to be able to, you know, uh say things a certain way.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there's these kind of like psychological triggers and and all of this kind of stuff that like us copywriters, you know, know really, really well.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's their personality, and then there's um, yeah, there's like so many different pieces.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, yeah, I find it's exactly like what you said.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's sort of a balance, like it's um, and I mean this is gonna sound really cliche, but it's like knowing the rules so that you can also break them because there's times when, you know, it makes sense like, oh yeah, this is actually a really good way, you know.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if we're thinking about urgency or something like that, oh, this is a good way to, you know, kind of show the urgency and convey the urgency of this particular offer, you know, yeah, that there are sort of some proven ways to do that.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that might be a good time to do it.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: But then there's also times when we're like, oh, this is really coming from the heart.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: We can break the rules, and you know, we don't necessarily have to follow it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think there's like a time and place for like for rules and for breaking them too.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Although I typically I'm saying this now, but I'm realizing I don't, I don't really think of them as rules.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're just like, um, I don't even like to think of them as best practices because I think we've seen so much like in our in in the industry in the last few years, we've seen a lot of people like questioning those those practices and kind of finding new ways to express themselves.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're really in like sort of an online business kind of a renaissance right now.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: I was just about to say that it feels like I the the word literally renaissance came to my mind because I was just thinking of how like so many of these like formulas, patterns, structures were built in a different era.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: And like exactly it's true that they did work at the time, but then now you think about like the volume of content people are putting out, social media has absolutely changed consumer behavior, buyer behavior, all of those things.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: And like I I believe that the structures and the formulas have changed.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is a side note tangent, but I think like AI learned what used to work because I mean that's what it is, it's just like a learning machine.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's following that, and that's why those sometimes feel really stale, robotic, and repetitive, even though they are technically proven strategies at one point.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I yeah, I know I just went off on a tangent, but it just I do think it changes the way people talk and the way you convert people into your business is so different now than it used to be.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's so true, yeah.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it led to a lot of questioning of like, wait, what are we doing?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Should we be using these?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Is this is this really making sense?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we do get a point, get to a point where, you know, with you know, proven strategies and formulas and all of that kind of stuff, like you kind of start like pushing the wall of like what's possible, where you kind of go, like, like I feel like I'm just like a little bit stuck in a box here.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I like to bring in more um, you know, I really love to borrow from literature and you know, use like a craft strategies like we use in creative writing because you know, those can be a really cool way.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, a lot of like what came from advertising, like I won't say strictly like, oh, it came like they borrowed from literature exactly.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know that like in every situation they did, but you know, you think about like storytelling, and I mean storytelling's been like a buzzword in marketing for a long time, but that's why I really like to go to like literature specifically, not just like like uh like verbal storytelling, but also like written storytelling and the way that like people, you know, would would write things, you know.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was saying, novels a few minutes ago, like there's a lot that we can borrow from that, and that's kind of the original before advertising, you know, really became what it was in the last like 100, 150 years.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people think of, I know when I think of like old school copywriting, I think of like mad men and um you know, like Don Draper kind of kind of style, like very, very retro, like the the all of that.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yeah, that's great, but it's also like we're we're in a modern time now and we can, you know, play with things and change things and and give ourselves permission to do that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, to not always like follow the rules.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, like watching.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: If you're listening to this, you should do this if you haven't, but like watching old commercials, like I mean, like old commercials, old commercials, and going back and watching how they talk and how they present what they're trying to sell is so interesting, and you'll learn so much from them.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also just crazy, like my my husband really likes his Camaro, so he really likes Chevrolet, and a lot of times we'll go watch old Chevy commercials, and it is just so interesting.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: The selling points and the way that they're trying to get you to buy the product that they have, and then you look at the the way they advertise now, and it is so completely different, and just honestly, sometimes it makes you feel bad because you're like, Oh, we were life was so simple back then.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like you could just sell us because like the the door handle was like chrome plated, like you could sell someone on that, you know, and it's like that's how it works now.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's way more emotional than that.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's really interesting, and it does teach you about like the different patterns that people have used historically to make purchases and then applying them now.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, they're different, but still can be applied to the psychology of how we buy things now.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's like, you know, and something I really like about literature is like you, you know, you read things and you know, people are people across time and space.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there's something very universal about that.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, some of you know the the strategies from back then, like they were created because people are people and you know, they tap into that like human psychology element.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, storytelling is very, you know, psychological because you know, you know, people always say that we're, you know, kind of storytelling creatures, if you will.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that's that's just something that we we do as humans that comes really naturally to us.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's yeah, it's like it's knowing rules, it's understanding historically where it came from, it's you know, being okay sometimes, like, you know, breaking them or doing something a little bit unexpected.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's something too, kind of breaking it's so funny because like pattern interrupt is like that's kind of like a classic copywriting thing, and yet we're I think we're just using it more now.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're just thinking about it more, and we're going, oh, we do need to break the pattern because people will expect this.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think two people have cued in.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm like, it's harder.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's literally harder to do pattern interrupts now because people like they expect them.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm yeah, you can clock it now more than you used to be able to, which is just so interesting.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Just it's honestly a lot of I think it all really has to do with social media because we know, we now know, like people are smarter about how they consume and what they're reading.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: They're also more uh skeptical.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: They're like a little more sus about you, where people used to just kind of trust, they trusted the big brands, they trusted the selling, and now it's it's really not trusted.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: People are like, yeah, I need more.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't believe you.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I even find this to be the case with like, you know, too good to be true promises.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even if someone has like really, really good results, they're seeing like this person did this, and this person did this, and this person did this.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think there even can sometimes be sort of a skepticism of like, wait, this is too good to be true.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: People are still kind of putting themselves in in those shoes and going, Well, could this actually work for me?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes even people won't buy because they're still just like, but will this work for me?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because these results are like almost too good.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even if they're like completely, completely legit, they're still having that because we are so skeptical now.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that like is a whole nother, I feel like that is a whole nother kind of worms of just people not like if you don't think that it's possible for you, it won't be.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like that is, and I know that that is like more woo, that's more out there, but it's literally true.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you go to buy something and you can't see yourself in the position of the reviews that you're reading, like you're not gonna get there.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's just you you there's some sort of internal journey that you need to go on to believe.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: To be expanded to be like that, this is possible for you.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: For you, yes, exactly.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which is actually kind of funny because I do have this question here about nervous system safety.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious what your thoughts are on how you see that showing up in the way people market themselves, um, how they're showing up online, maybe even on Instagram.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's so funny.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: This kind of taps into something I posted the other day about like pain points.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I kind of posted the thing like pain points aren't the pro aren't the problem.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like using them to make people feel like shit.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's because I think what we saw is like, you know, it was like this twist the knife, pain point, like make people feel really bad for missing out, was like the the way for a long time, almost where like you'd say things, you'd be like, This is really mean.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is why is this so pushy?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think people were like maybe invited to do that a little, a little more than they should have.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then people started questioning that, and they're like, Oh, well, pain points are bad, and pain points are terrible, and you know, we need to just have, you know, then it the overcorrection was pleasure points.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: You need to just like let's not have it be this like dopamine every time.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then it kind of became well, you know, the problem isn't pain, like we have to understand pain points.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we actually do have to understand what is the problem.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, how are they actually talking about this problem?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: How are they feeling?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: How are they experiencing this problem?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: But the main thing is like not making people feel bad, not shaming them into buying, um none of this like twist the knife crap, you know?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so it's it's showing people that you empathize, like you under you understand, you get it, and you know exactly what it is that they're going through, and you can show them that.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can also show them, hey, like I I get exactly where you are because either I've been there or my clients have been there, or like this is the exact thing that I address because this is like such a real issue.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I just find that a big thing is like, you know, it's it's not pain points, it's like using them like mindfully and respectfully, and it's you know, it's giving people a lot of choice because that's what you want your copy to read as, you know, there was kind of also like a big buzz of like ethical copywriting.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember always kind of feeling like you know, people call themselves an ethical copywriter, and it's like, oh, like who gets to call themselves like an ethical copywriter?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think really all it comes down to is like giving giving people the choice and empowering them and yeah, not like shaming people into buying and making them feel like oh well, I have to buy this to get this result because I don't know, maybe you don't, or maybe it's not the right time, or like maybe you really can't afford this, and you know, we don't want you to buy this if you can't afford it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you know, making sure you're like really calling in the right people because that's what it's really about.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you don't like you don't really want to work with the clients who feel like you're they're gonna save them, which I feel like was a major that did happen.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's so funny to talk about the online space.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I'm just like so cringed out by it because I'm like, this is so made up.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: But like on in the online space, you did see that where people were using a lot of that um antagonist style marketing, and then they're getting these clients who want who you've positioned yourself as the savior for them.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: So then they hire you and they want you to save them, and then you're annoyed at them.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's you created that monster, you know?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, yeah, I just think that um has also been a part of the shift away.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And the pendulum does swing, right?
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because then you go to the other side and it's like desire-based, desire-based, like by my lifestyle, by I have this cool car, like you could have that too.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have this nice house, you could have that too.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think people are like, huh.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, neither of those worked the way that I wanted, or brought in the clients that I wanted, which is why I've always been like, that's why a personal brand is so valuable, because then you can share your values, and if your values change, that's okay.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you can evolve and grow with your brand and continue to attract clients that like you and get you and don't want you to save them and are attracted to your journey, you know?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like building, building that brand that like only you can have, or like kind of building that like you-shaped space.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because like, yeah, you don't want people who who've like save my business, help my business.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you don't you don't want the energy of that really like it just doesn't feel really good on either side.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's just interesting.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, watching the way things have changed, and I've been doing social media management for almost four years now, and it's so interesting from kind of circling back to what we were talking about with like the formulas and strategies, it's funny because when I did start, we were using so many of those like proven formulas and proven strategies.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then over time, because of buyer behavior, the algorithm, how everything has changed, there's actually so much less of that, especially on social media.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: So when people are like, What's the formula?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: What's the hack?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do I pop off like this?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, I don't know what to tell you.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's not one.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And if you go scroll through Instagram, you'll see because there's one person telling you you should be posting yap videos, there's one person telling you carousels are popping off.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's one person telling you you need to do B-rolls, and there's all these different ways that are proven, they all work.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like there's there's not a way.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: There's not a way to do it.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you probably feel this the same way with copy, I'll let you speak for yourself, but it's like, yeah, it's just it's so different now, it's not as formulaic.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's more than one way to do it.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like I always think of it as like, I think it can be genuinely confusing to like, you know, scroll through Instagram or scroll through wherever, and people will be like, oh, um, yeah, like you said, like you need to be yapping, or oh, why are you on Instagram?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: You should be doing, you know, you should be blogging and be on Pinterest, or oh, why are you doing that?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: You should be running ads, you know, on you should be running meta ads, or you know, why are you doing that?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just go be on YouTube or you know, like it's it's like because you I could point at anyone like on any platform.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I could just think of a platform where there's someone doing really, really well there and it's and it's successful and it's really amazing for them.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that can be confusing for a lot of people.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh honestly, I've I've been through that with my business where it's like, wait, what should I focus on?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is the thing?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there, you know, is a lot of like, oh, my thing's the magic bullet, it's gonna save your business and it's gonna be this like end all be all thing.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you know, the truth is it's always there's always more to the story.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's kind of like what I think you're hinting at too is that um different things kind of work for different people, and there isn't just one way that it's gonna shake out, like, oh, if you follow this exact formula, you do exact this exact thing.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like so we're seeing that, yeah.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's so giving like I don't know, it's giving like religion, it's giving like organized religion when when they're like this is the path, and then you will be saved.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's just it's funny, it's tempting, it's tempting because you want the certainty, and when you are vulnerable or your business is struggling, or you've been doing this for years, and it just doesn't feel like where you should be, like it's so tempting to look at all the options and get overwhelmed.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I know we've veered off of copywriting, but it's just like you can't like that's not even true for any like majorly successful business.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Meta didn't follow a formula, they made their own way, they came up with an app, like it was they didn't follow somebody's blueprint, they made the blueprint for themselves.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we just we want so badly for there to be a way or the right way or whatever, and that just doesn't exist, and it it never has like it's an illusion to think that that's ever really been a thing that's true, like in life.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: You just it's not like that.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's kind of the big thing that happened, like, you know, how we were talking this shift from like, oh, this is proven to like wait, is this or yeah, you know, the the more nuanced in the conversation, it's kind of the whole like conversation that I think the whole industry had on trust.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of like shifted us to be like, wait, it is more nuanced.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: There is more to this picture, not only in your marketing, but also like the words you're using and the imagery you put out there.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I think for a while too, we were seeing a lot of brands really look the same too.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think sometimes this can still happen.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: People get like really caught up in trends, and like everyone's brand like kind of looks the same way.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like we'll we'll have like different areas, you know.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: We had like the super beige, and then we had like, oh, everyone's being like super bright and colorful.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it's like I always find like in the creative online space, it's like we do kind of deal in pendulum swings a lot.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, you're kind of just figuring out like where on the pendulum swing, are we catching this?
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are we like, is this over and we're about to go into the next thing?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, I think I've just found like I used to think earlier in my business, I was like, I'll get to a point where like everything, the industry feels super stable and I feel super stable.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, I really think that what it comes down to is like it's creating a personal brand, a U-shaped, you know, place for yourself.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think it's also being able to be like evolve and be flexible and kind of keep up with what's going on and like not get super duper caught up in trends, but also like be willing to kind of be like be open and and figure out what things are like what are people talking about?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Is this for me?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: Is this not for me?
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: You watched like we all watched so many brands that like really popped off in 2020, like major, major success, a lot of money, and then they tried to repeat those same strategies year after year after year, and then around 2024, 2025, you start seeing those brands like really struggle and go back to corporate and burn it all down because they're trying so hard to stick with what like used to work, and yeah, I get it, like I get it, it's exhausting because you're like, I have to always be watching what's going, but I genuinely think that there's a balance.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's there are there are things that don't change as much, and then there are things that do change, and I also think you as an individual have to be centered in yourself and your purpose and your vision and your goals so that you don't get pulled in a million directions and constantly rebranding and constantly changing up all of these things getting caught up in people's marketing.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: Cause I think you can like get really caught up and really excited, like like kind of like you what you were saying, you really want what they're selling.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you're like, oh my gosh, like I really want this thing, or you know, then then we see people like rebranding every year and a half, and it's like that's not really like what.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Branding is for like it's to be purposeful and last, and you know, you're gonna evolve, but it's it's making sure it's all really purposeful and not getting like too caught up in like anything, really.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like there's just a balance of doing what you know works, and also having a percentage of your your life and business where you're willing to try something new, take a different risk.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you try ads, maybe you do try TikTok or YouTube or something.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you want to bring something else in, that's fine, but just not having that be like a constant part of you because that is like so exhausting, especially if you're like a solo entrepreneur or you only have a small team.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you're just like really putting yourself through the ringer there.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then, like we said, on the other side of that, you don't want to just only do the same stuff always because you will eventually like that eventually will stop working slowly over time.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just like completely about balance, which is probably a business owner's kryptonite.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do we even know what that is?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it gets so personal.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, yeah, when you have your own business, it just it feels so integrated with your life.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I find sometimes when I'm talking about you know personal development, I am also thinking about how that like evolves into my business too, and like what's my marketing gonna look like?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: And probably like people who don't have their own businesses, they would be like, that is so weird.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you what does that mean?
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Why are you doing that?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: But it's it just comes naturally.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's just because we're so like we're so in it, it's just really, really funny.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes you'd have to laugh at yourself because you're like, what am I doing?
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm this is made up.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we're just literally like we're in a simulation, it's fine.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is a game, like it's okay, it's okay.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: Don't have to be that serious.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, before we wrap up, I just want to ask you one last question, and that is it's so easy.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just kidding.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what is one piece of advice you wish you could give your younger self?
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um what would I do?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: What would I choose?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think that earlier on my business, I like would always like overthink and compare myself to other people a lot.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's something that I I would tell my younger self and what I would tell earlier business owners is like you know, put that I mean it sounds so cliche to like put the blinders on, but I think you really have to.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: I really think you do um have to kind of like protect your energy and your space.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if like following someone like triggers you or like makes you feel jealous or you know makes you feel like you're not good enough or something like that, like you know, keep doing the work on yourself, maybe mute them for a little while.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can still think they're amazing, but like you know, mute them and give yourself the space that you need, and you know, try to focus on what you're doing.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's good because there's always like there's always gonna be other people doing other things, and you know, you have to focus on on what you're doing and and what you love about that.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, agree so much.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: Big, huge fan of the Mew Bye.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Meta, for that.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: You don't make our lives easy, but that is a good one.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um I agree, yeah.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_02: Really, you have to, you have to like it.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think like if you're the most evolved person ever, you can probably handle being triggered constantly by people and be fine.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think most of us don't fall into that category, and we are susceptible to being triggered and jealous, or just you get taken you you get looking not at your own goals and business in life, and you get looking at someone else's, and then you're like, that looks nice, I want that, and then but it's not really what you want.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's important to be to have judgment and discernment when it comes to what you let yourself consume because it will change how you feel, it will change how you operate.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: This was lovely.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we'll talk to you soon.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.