Latest / The Fourcast / UN commission says Israel is committing genocide - Marwan Barghouthi’s son reacts

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UN commission says Israel is committing genocide - Marwan Barghouthi’s son reacts · The Fourcast

0:00
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine didn't start on
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October 7th, but it's in on steroids after October 7th.
0:06
We just want to have our PTSD in in in peace.
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We never have PTSD because the trauma is never paused.
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Let's talk. More about your father.
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He's been in jail most of your life.
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He's been put in in solitary confinement, assaulted 3
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separate times and one assault was very very brutal.
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So can we talk about practical steps?
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How do you see the political steps to bring an end to the
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killing, first of all, and then the beginning of a political
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process? Hello, and welcome to the
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Forecast. I'm Christian Guru Murphy, and
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I'm coming to you from Jerusalem, the King David Hotel,
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a historic place here in this city.
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And we're bringing you this podcast as the UN Commission has
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just found that Israel has been committing genocide.
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It's found on a number of fronts and this of course comes on the
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back of international scholars and various other organisations
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coming to the same conclusion. Now it doesn't have the legal
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standing of a court. It is not the Security Council.
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It is a body set up for the UN, consisting of eminent legal
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minds, but it carries some moral authority.
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My guest today is Arab Barghouti, the son of Marwan
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Barghouti, perhaps the most popular Palestinian leader in
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this country. He has been in jail for two
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decades after refusing to take part in a legal process, a court
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he refused to recognise on charges that again,
1:44
international bodies have found would not pass any kind of legal
1:50
test. He is often regarded as the most
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popular leader here, sometimes spoken of as the Palestinian
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Mandela and Arab is in London campaigning for his father's
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release. Thank you so much for joining
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us. Thank you for having me.
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Let me begin with the UN International Commission.
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They have found that on four out of five fronts, Israel is
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committing genocide. What impact do you think that
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has? Well, I think that it's a step
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into the right direction into calling and labelling it as it
2:24
should be, which is a genocide. I don't think that there is any
2:27
doubt in in our hearts. We didn't need as Palestinians a
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72 page report to tell us that this is a genocide because
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destroying the infrastructure, the health system, the education
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system and all of that and slaughtering 10s of thousands of
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civilians is nothing but a genocide.
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And it's it's good for pressuring governments into
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changing their policies. But I think that it's been very
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clear to us for two years now that it's a genocide.
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At the same time, Israel is stepping up its attacks on Gaza
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City, saying it is targeting buildings being used by Hamas.
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They say Gaza City is burning. What do you think they are
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actually doing? They're after the the civilian
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population. They want to ethnically cleanse
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the Palestinian people and and they are using genocide as a
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tool to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian people.
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They want to make sure, you know, the towers that they're
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talking about are the last few towers that are being lived by
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civilians. And they don't want that.
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They don't want any Palestinian to stay in, in Gaza.
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And I think that, you know, we've been going through this
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project for decades now. The ethnic cleansing of
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Palestine didn't start on October 7th.
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It was maybe slower than this, but it's in on steroids after
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October 7th. Because they saw that it's a
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golden opportunity with the blank check that they've been
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given by the Western governments to commit the war crimes and the
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crimes against humanity that are they are committing against the
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Palestinian people. And the fact that this report
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went on at the same time while the Israeli army and the Israeli
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government is, is, you know, committing this offence.
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And Gaza tells you everything that you need to know.
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They have no limits. They think that they are above
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the law and they have the green light to do whatever they want
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with the Palestinian people. This comes days after the UN
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General Assembly backed the French Saudi statement, the
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declaration calling for A2 state solution, and it comes just
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ahead of the likely recognition by Britain, France, Belgium,
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Canada and Australia or the Palestinian state.
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Do you think any of this international pressure is having
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an effect? It does.
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It's a step into the right direction.
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It's not a game changer. We shouldn't overreact, but also
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we shouldn't minimise these efforts.
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We we really welcome these efforts.
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I think that the Saudi and French initiative is very
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important. It protects the diplomatically
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the two state solution and the establishment of the Palestinian
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state. But unfortunately it does not
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change things on the ground. On the ground, things are going
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worse by the day. And in order for this to really
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have a real impact and influence, it should take the
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next step, which is putting real sanctions on the Israeli
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government and making sure that the Israeli government pays for
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for the what what they're doing. And then only then they will
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really answer to the pressure. They won't answer to diplomacy.
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They don't. They won't answer to anything
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else. The only answer they will have
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is is for real pressure that isolates the Israeli government,
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exactly like the apartheid South African government.
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The two state solution is your father's mission.
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It's what he was famous for. What is his vision today, given
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the realities? My my father's mission has
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always been the Palestinian independence, freedom and living
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with dignity. And he's someone who who
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supports the two the the political solutions.
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He's not attached to the two state.
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He is not delusional who understands that the two state
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solution is getting killed and murdered by the current Israeli
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fascist government. But at the same time, he he's
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attached to the objective. And our objective is Palestinian
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freedom and living with dignity and Palestinian independence.
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And if that's going to happen through, you know, through 2
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state, he's going to welcome that.
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If that's going to happen through other solutions, he's
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open to other solutions. But what he's not open or
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flexible about is Palestinian freedom and living with dignity.
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I mean, what other solutions could there be?
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You know, it's a generational issue if you think about it like
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our generation does not believe in the two state because we feel
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that it's the magic word that the Western leaders keep giving
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to us to hypnotize the Palestinian people into
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believing that we will have a solution.
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There is the one state there is, you know, I, I don't think that
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we, that's the, the main issue. The main issue is to, to agree
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on the objective. And the objective is very clear
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Palestinian freedom, living with dignity and independence.
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And if that's going to be through 2 state and having a
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Palestinian independent sovereign state, of course we
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welcome that. But if that state going to be
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filled with settlers, with settle illegal settlements, with
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checkpoints, with military occupation, we don't want that.
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OK, well, we'll, we'll come back to the whole question of one
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state or two state, but let's talk more about your father,
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because for the younger generation, he's been in prison
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for all their lives. He's not particularly well
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known. So tell us about Marwan
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Barghouti, a man who I guess in truth, you don't really know
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either very well because he's been in jail most of your life.
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Yes, Marwan Baruthi is, is a man, is a Palestinian who grew
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up in Palestine. He grew up in the West Bank and
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he first encountered the Israeli occupation, what it means at a
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very young age. And he went to prison the first
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time at the age of 15 after he became an activist, a young
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activist. So talking about someone who has
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been struggling for Palestinian rights for more than 50 years
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now, spent more than 30 years of his life in, in prison, seven
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years in exile and so on. And yet you would never hear him
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talking out of hatred. He's, he's always driven by
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purpose and by a clear mission. And his mission.
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I, I, I think that the biggest pain that my father is having
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right now is the fact that myself and my generation are
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living through this and going through this because his dream
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was to make us avoid going through this as a generation.
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He's, he's a very well educated person.
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He has a PhD in political science.
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He teaches inside prison. He's graduated hundreds of
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Palestinian detainees with their masters and bachelor's degrees.
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He's a great, loving father, a loyal husband.
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And he's always been, you know, very warm.
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I've never heard him complaining in my life.
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He's always present, positive, looking for a better future.
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And right now I know that all he thinks of is what political
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initiatives can we take as Palestinians to move forward and
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to to stop the suffering of Palestinian children.
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If he is a man of peace, then why is he in jail for violence?
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Because the Israeli government does not want any Palestinian
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leader. There is effective, there is
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influential, there is respected by the people.
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If you go back throughout history, Palestinian history,
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you will find that any effective leader gets either killed or or
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put in prison. And they already tried to
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assassinate him three separate times in the second intifada and
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the uprising of the Palestinian people.
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He was the face of that uprising.
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And for that, they wanted to make an example of him in front
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of the Palestinian people and to teach us a lesson that if you
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ever, you know, stand against this occupation and oppression,
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this is your destiny. You're either going to get
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killed or put in prison, which is a classic story.
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Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist.
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Many other historical leaders were called terrorists.
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So this is a colonial word that they used to delegitimize the
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right of of the oppressed people of self defence.
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So can you explain this because a a lot of people have a problem
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with this idea that if if he is a man who has advocated peaceful
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and political means, he is also a man who supported the second
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intifada. So he is not entirely against
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struggle, armed struggle. Well, he, he's, he's a big
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supporter of political solutions, but he preserves the
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right of the Palestinian people of self defence.
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The international, according to the international law, the
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international law states clearly that any occupied people have
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the right of self defence and that includes armed struggle.
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And, you know, we, we have to be very clear and we have to be
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honest about like we're either occupied or we're not occupied.
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And it's, it's not even debatable if we're occupied or
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not. If, if we're occupied, then we
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have the right of self defence again, you know, against the
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Israeli occupation according to the international law.
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And he supports that, right. He, he took initiatives, you
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know, like the prisoner's document, which was a historical
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document in 2006. And until today, it's the only
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document that is signed on by all Palestinian factions that
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state clearly that Palestinian state should be established on
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the 67 borders. The targeting of civilians
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should be forbidden and the resistance should be limited to
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within the 67 borders. That shows you what kind of
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leader he is. He's always taking initiatives
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to move things forward and to unify the Palestinian people
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towards one political vision. And that's exactly what we need.
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And it's stated that the, you know, he brought all Palestinian
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factions to sign on on that, which is a great initiative to
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move forward. But what he he faces in return
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the fact that the Israeli government is not interested in
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our political solution. They're only interested in
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ethnically cleansing the Palestinian people.
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The Israeli interior security minister, Ben Gavir, from the
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far right, went to taunt your father in prison recently.
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What was your reaction? What was your father's reaction
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to that? Honestly, I don't know what my
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father reaction is because I haven't seen my father in three
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years. I haven't been able to to
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communicate with him since October 7th.
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He's not been visited by any of the family members since then,
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and he's only been visited by his lawyer a handful times.
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I, I think you know, and, and he's been put in, in solitary
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confinement, assaulted 3 separate times and one assault
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was very, very brutal to the point where he got physically
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injured severely. I, I think that at, at the
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beginning, I was shocked because it, it's really painful to, to
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take minutes until I can recognize that this is my
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father. That's the first reaction.
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But then I started remembering what my father taught me and the
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fact that this is a normal relationship between the
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oppressed and the oppressor, between the occupied and the
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occupier. And I think that this picture
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will go down in history to show the struggle, to show the face
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of the current Israeli government in Bangvir and to
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show the face of the Palestinian struggle in a man who looks like
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he lost weight, like he's aging and so on.
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But yet he stood tall in in the face of oppression like he's
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always done. As far as you know, how is he?
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After October 7th, my father was the head of Alfred Prison where
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where he was came to him and he asked him to put his hands
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behind his back and to kneel to him in front of other prisoners.
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Because, you know, we're used to that.
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We're used to the Israeli mentality of, of making sure
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that we understand that they're superior to us.
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He refused to do that. So they forced him to do to do
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it and he got his shoulder dislocated.
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And from there they sent him to solitary confinement.
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They he's been in solitary confinement since then and he's
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been moving from prison to prison.
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They put him in a cell that could barely fit him with no
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windows, spotlight in his face, you know, speakers on on the
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door of the cell with the Israeli national anthem at the
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highest volume to prevent him from sleeping, not giving him
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enough food and so on. And he's been assaulted 3 major
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times, one in end of 2023, one in March of 24.
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And the major one was in September of last year, a year
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ago, where three to four prison guards went to his cell.
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They dragged him into an area with no, with no camera
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surveillance and they started beating him up until he passed
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out and he was bleeding and he got injured severely in his
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ribs, in his forehead, in his ear.
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And he he said to his lawyer, which, you know, he's been
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allowed only to see his lawyer for four or five times since
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October 7th. He said that that he felt that
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this was an assassination attempt.
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It wasn't a normal assault like they have been practicing
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against Palestinian political prisoners.
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This is why everyone needs to take this with sense of urgency.
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And This is why we're advocating and campaigning towards the
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British government, the French government, the American
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government, everyone to provide them with protection because we
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already lost many, many prisoners.
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And they need to take it seriously because this is a
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respected leader, a parliament member.
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He's someone who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace
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Prize for his role in, in bringing peace, future peace in
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in the future. And he needs to be protected.
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Do you think, I know it's difficult if you haven't
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communicated with him since October 7th, but do you think he
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still sees himself as a political leader for today?
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Yes, I, I don't think, you know, as a political leader, you're
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always a leader. You don't need positions to, to
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be a leader, even though he holds positions as a member of
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the Central Committee of Fatah, as a parliament member and so
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on. But I think that he's a leader
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who's always willing to take steps towards ending the
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Palestinian suffering. And I want to be respectful of
16:51
the Palestinian people. It's our People's Choice.
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We're aspiring to to be a democratic state and we're
16:57
looking forward towards that. And it's for the Palestinian
17:00
people to choose our leadership because, you know, we haven't
17:04
had elections for almost 20 years, for more than 20 years.
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And we need that to, to have a trusted leadership that we can
17:11
all be behind in in a clear political vision.
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And he's someone who's capable of doing that.
17:19
Now obviously you know, ending the violence is your first
17:22
priority and getting a ceasefire.
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The question is what after that and and you've said that your
17:30
generation is sceptical of two states talks as a western
17:35
constructs. So let's talk about the, you
17:39
know, the alternative then. I mean, what do you mean by one
17:42
state? I mean, there is a lot of talk
17:46
about like a one state solution that is based on equality for
17:51
all. And equality for all means,
17:55
regardless of your ethnicity, of your religion, if you're living
17:58
in that state, you're equal. You know, I, I, this is
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something that we have to, to discuss internally within the
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Palestinian politics. My only point is that whatever
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happens to the Palestinian people is for the Palestinian
18:13
people to decide. We, we're sick and tired of, of
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Western governments coming to us and telling us here is what you
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need to do. Here is the Oslaq words, here is
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this and that and never holding the Israelis accountable for
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violating every single agreement that we've had before.
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I, I think that you know, that the idea of A2 state is of
18:35
course welcomed, but it should be clear that it's on the 67
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borders, but with full sovereignty, full independence,
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full, you know, with self determination and so on.
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So we do support political solutions, but they have to be
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respected. And the problem with this is
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that they are never respected by by the Israelis.
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What do you mean by the Palestinian people and do you
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include the men with guns? The Palestinian people are all
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the Palestinian people. The 1415 million, 7 million in
19:07
Palestine and 7 million in the the the diaspora.
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We shouldn't forget that Palestinians in the diaspora
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where people who got kicked out of their homes literally in
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1948, which is a war crime and a crime against humanity, that was
19:24
done. And they shouldn't be forgotten
19:26
in this. And we need to have that
19:28
internal dialogue and internal discussions and decide all
19:31
together as Palestinians on what political vision do we all
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support. And for that, we need elections.
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We need a political system that is healthy, that includes the
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youth, that is inclusive and, you know, has women in power and
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so on. We're we're, we're aspiring to
19:48
to be that state. But you can't have that
19:50
election, can you, before political talks with Israel?
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I mean that there isn't time to build a political culture, to
19:57
create, to recreate, you know, a, a, a system in which you
20:02
could have a proper election given what's happened to the
20:04
population. Well, I, I think, you know, the,
20:07
the first priority is stopping the genocide.
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After we stop the genocide, we can talk about elections and we
20:12
can talk about all of that. But I think it's a, it's a
20:15
matter of timing. The the timing is, is everything
20:18
here. We do need elections because we
20:22
want leadership that represents the Palestinian people, that is
20:26
very clear about its political vision.
20:28
And I think it's very dangerous, the fact that the Israeli
20:30
government right now is trying to deliberately to, to make the
20:36
PA collapse basically. And this is very dangerous
20:39
because the body of the PA is the sole representation right
20:42
now on the ground of the Palestinian people.
20:45
And yes, we do have corruption issues and we, we do have other
20:48
issues in the PA. But the, the international
20:52
community should contribute into strengthening the, the PA to be
20:56
the body that is, that will be governing all of Palestine.
21:01
But this PA can't be, you know, a, a representation of the
21:06
Palestinian people if we can't have elections because we don't
21:08
have parliament. We don't have, we haven't had
21:11
elections in 20 years. And that's very bad for the
21:13
political system. There have been constant
21:16
reassurances or assurances that Hamas will not be part of that
21:21
negotiation and that they would not be part of any immediate
21:25
post war government in in Gaza. But are are the politicians and
21:31
the political groupings in Palestine able to guarantee that
21:39
Hamas would not be part of that future?
21:42
I, I think that, you know, this is something that Hamas has made
21:46
very clear that they are willing to do that as a compromise to
21:49
make sure that things will move forward and to take away that
21:53
excuse from the Israeli government that keeps putting
21:56
that as an excuse not to stop their genocide.
22:00
And I think that, you know, what do they need more than them
22:03
saying that we are willing to do that.
22:05
I don't think you need more guarantees than that.
22:08
And we, they, they need to, to move forward from there.
22:11
We need to be very clear that Hamas has, you know, made every
22:14
single compromise needed for, for the ceasefire and has made
22:17
it very clear that they're willing to cooperate to make
22:20
sure that we can move forward from here.
22:22
But the Israeli government is not interested because they're
22:24
only interested in the ethnic cleansing and they're using
22:27
Hamas and October 7th as an excuse and a golden opportunity
22:31
to get that done. But do do you think people who
22:34
believe in violence can change and become political figures, or
22:40
do you think they need to be removed from the situation?
22:43
But I mean, historically speaking, they can change.
22:45
And I think that, you know, if you look at the, the problem,
22:51
you, you said believe in violence.
22:52
If you're living in in Palestine, all you see in your
22:56
life is violence. So how can you stop the cycle of
22:59
violence as long as the violence is happening in front of you
23:03
every single day? I grew up in the West Bank.
23:05
I am the generation that that saw the the Israeli invasion of
23:09
the West Bank in 2002. The the soldiers came to to to
23:13
our house. I was not allowed for days.
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They put the Israeli flag on our balcony.
23:18
I was not allowed for for days to to go to the kitchen or to
23:21
the bathroom, except if I ask for their permission to go.
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As a 10 year old, what, what kind of trauma do you think that
23:27
that puts in you? And if I talk about these
23:30
stories and I tell them now, they sound cute compared to
23:34
what's happening in Gaza and the people of Gaza.
23:37
So before we start asking about believing in violence and the
23:40
reaction, let's talk about the action.
23:42
Let's talk about the root cause. And the root cause is the
23:44
illegal occupation, the apartheid, the ethnic cleansing
23:47
and the genocide that we're going through.
23:50
And without, you know, my father said that the first day of peace
23:55
is the last day of occupation and the occupation, and then
23:58
everything will become better. We can't keep, you know, having
24:02
these discussions while we're going under all of this.
24:06
I mean, talking about how children in Gaza react, are
24:14
reacting and will have trauma from what has happened in the
24:18
future, it raises the whole question of whether anything
24:23
that is negotiated now by today's generation can hold for
24:29
a future generation that has lived through this.
24:33
I mean, we, we have to go through it.
24:35
It's very hard. And it's, you know, we just want
24:40
to have our PTSD in, in, in peace.
24:44
We never have PTSD because the, the trauma is never posed, as
24:48
they say. And we, we want the genocide to
24:51
stop so we can, you know, take care of our children and, and
24:55
live the, the dream that my father has always dreamed of,
24:59
which is Palestinian children living in peace, living in
25:03
security, not worrying about our children's life, livelihood for
25:07
the future. We have the right to do that.
25:09
And he used to always say that we're not as an exception as a
25:13
nation. We just want to live a normal
25:15
life. We just want to have our
25:16
sovereignty, our independence. And we're not an exception.
25:21
And we will have that one day. But you know the the question
25:25
now is how and when we will have that?
25:29
So can we talk about practical steps?
25:31
I mean, as we've said, we, we, we've seen the declarations of
25:35
genocide, we've seen the calls for A2 state solution.
25:38
We are seeing the recognition of a Palestinian state, notional
25:44
though that is. How do you see the political
25:46
steps to bring an end to the killing, first of all, and then
25:51
the beginning of a political process when you have a
25:53
government in Israel that says there will never be a
25:57
Palestinian state, that it has no interest in A2 state solution
26:00
and it has no interest in the kinds of things that you're
26:02
talking about? I think it it will, it has to be
26:06
done on 2 levels. The first level from the
26:08
international community. We need the help of the
26:11
international community by putting pressure on the Israeli
26:14
government. The the reason why they are
26:15
saying we don't want a 2 state solution.
26:17
We want all the Palestinians out.
26:19
They are calling publicly for the ethnic cleansing of the
26:21
Palestinian people because they feel that they are above the
26:24
law. They feel that they can do
26:26
whatever they want. They have been given the green
26:28
light and the blank check by the international community, by the
26:31
Western government to do whatever they want.
26:34
They've never faced any real accountability.
26:37
But that continues to be the case, doesn't it?
26:39
I mean, Trump and Rubio have not changed their position.
26:46
So, you know, can there be progress that the that the rest
26:50
of the world delivers? Yes, there, there will be
26:54
progress and the progress we can see it in the hope that we are
26:57
seeing in, in the millions of people that are protesting on
27:01
daily basis for the Palestinian people.
27:03
The shift is happening and we can see the shift.
27:05
Yes, it's it's getting worse on the ground, unfortunately, but
27:09
the shift is happening and this generation will be the
27:11
generation that will be the decision makers of of the future
27:15
in in politics and they see what's happening.
27:17
The genocide is live in, in their phones and they can't hide
27:21
the truth anymore. They can't, you can't go back
27:23
from this. And what we're calling for is to
27:26
end the cycle of, to help us end the cycle of violence.
27:29
And you asked me about like political steps.
27:32
The recognition is, is a step in the right direction.
27:35
But the, the recognition alone will not be enough.
27:39
It has to be linked with sanctions, real sanctions on the
27:44
Israeli government to make them feel the pressure.
27:46
As long as they're as they're not feeling the pressure they
27:48
want change, why would they change?
27:50
They don't have any motivation to change.
27:52
They have all the green light to keep stealing land and and
27:56
terrorizing the Palestinian population.
27:58
And the only way to do that is is by sanctioning the the
28:01
current Israeli government with real punishment.
28:04
And the other thing is that we as Palestinians to worry about
28:07
what we can control and what we can control is to unify towards
28:10
of a clear political vision that can take us forward and and the
28:15
the unity of the Palestinian people is the biggest concern
28:19
that we should have as Palestinians.
28:21
How how vital is the release of your father for the Palestinian
28:26
people to be able to have that conversation amongst themselves?
28:30
It's essential and not only my father.
28:32
I want to be respectful of the other leaders that are behind
28:35
bars like Ahmad Sadat and many others.
28:38
And I think that my, my father can contribute a lot towards
28:43
bringing the Palestinian people together and towards the unity.
28:47
And, and you know, you, you said that, that the young generation
28:51
don't know him. And you're right about that.
28:53
If you're 30 years old or under, which is like almost 70% of the
28:57
Palestinian population, you, you, you've never seen him
29:02
outside of prison, except in videos and so on.
29:05
And the reason why he's still the most popular Palestinian
29:07
leader is because of his, he is a unifying figure.
29:12
He's someone who's willing to sacrifice a lot for the cause.
29:15
And that's the kind of leader that we respect as Palestinians.
29:19
He's always against corruption. He supports democracy, he
29:22
supports political solutions and preserves the rights of the
29:26
Palestinian people of self defence.
29:28
And these are this is the combination of of leadership
29:31
that we need in in Palestine. And that's why the people
29:35
understand his influence and his impact once he's released and
29:39
even from inside prison, because he's done most of of his, his
29:44
political, you know, achievements from inside prison
29:48
as well. Are you getting any support from
29:51
the British government? I mean, things are moving to and
29:56
and shifting towards the right direction.
29:58
I can't say support because I was expecting more from the
30:00
British government and from the Western governments overall when
30:03
when the video Bang Veer happened.
30:06
Here you have a sanctioned terrorist, convicted terrorist
30:10
in Bang Veer taunting and, and threatening A Palestinian leader
30:14
inside prison who looks like he he got, you know, starved
30:18
inside, inside prison and tortured and so on.
30:22
And we didn't see the the reaction that we were looking
30:25
for. They should have been appalled
30:28
by what what they saw and they should have taken it very
30:32
seriously. 76 Palestinian political prisoners have been
30:35
killed inside prison since October 7th.
30:38
So why wouldn't we think that my father, my father's life is in
30:42
danger and they need to, need to take it very seriously because
30:46
he's one, one of the last hopes of, you know, a political
30:51
solution that is accepted because he is trusted by the
30:53
people and he's someone who is capable of taking the
30:57
Palestinian people towards that. Are you, are you able to meet
31:00
any of the British government on your visit?
31:03
Have you been invited in? Not yet, but we we will be
31:07
having some meetings and we're always in in touch with their
31:11
office in Jerusalem and we're, we're hoping that they can take
31:16
real steps towards my father's release and all Palestinian
31:20
political prisoners release. Arad Barghouti, thank you very
31:22
much indeed for joining us today.
31:25
That's the forecast. Until next time, bye bye.