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Screwed by Pittsburgh! · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another exciting episode of Pittsburgh Sports Memories where we maybe will um you know have hopefully we haven't uh treated the uh fans of our podcast unfairly.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know I've treated Tim unfairly many a times, right?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Have have I have I screwed you over, Tim?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean I'm I'm seeing like zero profit from this podcast.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: We're keeping everything.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we we split the profits 50-50, so just if you're getting zero, guess how much I'm getting?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so on this episode, um, have you ever felt like you've been treated unfairly?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, join the club.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: We all have.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody gets a short end of the stick occasionally.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: On this episode, we're gonna remember the times that Pittsburgh fans or owners or media members have treated a Pittsburgh athlete or organization unfairly.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we're gonna channel our inner victimhood.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have Oprah on later, um, and we're gonna find out who's been abused by Pittsburgh.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Tim, can you show me on the doll where the Pittsburgh fans hurt you?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: I can I can I can show you lots of lots of uh pain points from Pittsburgh sports events and that I can tell you that.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so anyway, um we'll start off with one here.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Dave Wonstatt firing, Tim.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember this?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think we went over in our 2008 episode a little bit, but um uh the official reason was he was fired due to lack of discipline on the team.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that's the official, but that was one of the reasons.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's because four football players were arrested over a two-month period at the beginning of the season.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this is probably more the reason.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: He was not winning big games, he hadn't won the Big East Conference, they hadn't made a BCS bowl game.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: His record at the time was 42-31.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, that's seventh most in Pitt history at the time.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he only has one season that Pitt football finished in the top 25 at the end.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, remember the ironic twist of this whole story um was that his replacement was fired after three weeks due to lack of discipline, domestic abuse, getting arrested.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um, what's the story here?
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Why was he fired?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Was it the lack of wins or the lack of discipline?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the paper actually last listed like all his horrible losses.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um boy, I think I was present for a lot of these.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know you were at the Ohio game in 2005, where they gave up a late touchdown and won an overtime.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: You and I were both at that game.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Nebraska game where they missed the e wasn't easy, they missed the field goal to win it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um that Connecticut game where they gave up the two-point conversion to um goodness gracious.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't Orloski, it was the other guy.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_03: The the brother of Hernandez.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Hernandez, yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: DJ Hernandez.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um Navy.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, I remember that.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: They they lost to Navy.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Was that the game where Shady McCoy got stuffed on like a fourth down or something like that, or something like that?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: Bowling Green.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that they opened the season that was after 13-9, wasn't it?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: That was like the first game after 13-9.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, yeah, we're back on track losing to bowling green.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, NC State, see, this isn't like in hindsight, this really isn't as bad of a loss as you think.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Pitt was up in 14 points on NC State, and they he took his foot off the gas pedal, should have just kept scoring points, but he didn't, and some quarterback that nobody knew about, nobody cared about because he played for NC State and not for you know one of the big boys named maybe you heard of him, Tim.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever heard of a guy named Russell Wilson?
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Led a comeback in the 14th quarter.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Did he ever do anything ever after that?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean he threw a lot of incompletions for the Steelers and later on.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: I can tell you that.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, 2009, a meaningless West Virginia game.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, where that was the game before Cincinnati.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, we were at this one.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: The game versus Cincinnati, what a painful mess that was.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Blew a 21-point lead.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Was one of the Kelseys was in that, or were both of the Kelseys.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Travis was definitely in it, yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, so uh yes, a lot of painful losses.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um a lot of a lot of uh good wins too.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, Tim.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it was more of the lack of winning than the the discipline thing was just maybe the cherry on top, but I I think it really was he never won the he didn't win enough of the big games.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think if you take this list and you cut it in half, he's probably still coaching Pitt now, if he hadn't retired by now.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I think if he wins the Cincinnati game, he's still coaching Pitt.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Just that one game alone.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because Yeah, that would have put him in the BCS bowl, yeah.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: Right, they would have been in the sugar bowl against Tim Debo, and that would have made a huge difference.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that was really the story for him.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and it's so sad because you're right, he he loved Pitt.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: He was a pit guy, he wasn't one of these carpet baggers that was coming to try to use Pitt as a stepping stone to get somewhere else.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but the the problem with Dave Wansted.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_03: It so do you remember where he was before Pitt Steve?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: He was in Miami and Chicago, and the problem, like I said, was the reason he lost the NC State game, and I remember that distinctly, is they had that game comfortably in hand in like the middle of the third quarter, and they stopped playing offense.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: They just started run the ball, run the ball, run the ball.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was too early for that.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like he went to like the offense you go to when there's two minutes left to go in the game and you have a four-point lead, the fall forward offense.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's great for that point in the game, but when there's like 18 minutes to go in the game, like you have a whole quarter, you need to score more points.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: His MO as a coach was he he could build you a good competitive team that could get you know pretty far and and could do a lot better than they were probably capable of, but couldn't get over that whatever that hump was.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: And there's lots of football coaches like that, right?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_03: Marty Schottenheimer was that guy in like eight different places.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: Bill Cower was really that guy for all the way until the very end of his career.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Mike, some people would say Mike Tomlin's that guy now.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's just it's it's there's a lot of factors that you know come together for you to have to win in college or win in football in general.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I think for Wanstead, again, you know, if you look at what he did with the Dolphins, he built really good teams there, and they couldn't get past, you know, winning a playoff game or two.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: But but they fired Wanstead, and guess how many playoff games the Miami Dolphins have won since they fired Dave Wanstead, Steve?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um not many.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's zero is the number.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: They've won zero playoff games since they fired Dave Wansted.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: So now, does that mean that he should have stayed there?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_03: Not necessarily.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_03: And Pitt, when they fired Wanstead, I mean, they just went through a cycle of ridiculous, it was like eight different coaches in three years or something.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it was insane, and it really set the program back years.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: And at the same time, I get it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Wanted couldn't he just couldn't get them past a certain point.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I I really do think, Steve, if he wins the Cincinnati game, I think I think he like you said, he's either still there today or he retires maybe like two years ago or something.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: I really think that would have made all the difference in the world.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: And they had that game one, that's the really sad thing.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: They had that game one, and it just didn't didn't work out.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he went into that conservative well, no, I mean, they were running the ball successfully.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: They missed an extra point.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's what killed them.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: They they and then they didn't even miss it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_03: The the holder misplaced the snap, and that's really why they lost that game.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Poor Andrew Junoko.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: And it I mean, it yeah, just there uh we've talked about this on the show before.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: There's so many moments in sports where you could go down the whole um butterfly effect, you know, what what would have how would things have been different had that one moment in time changed?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we we've talked about that before with um with uh uh uh Josh McCallan throwing that touchdown pass for the Cardinals and and that leading to the Steelers drafting Ben.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: We've talked about that before with a million other things, and I think that that play, that snap, that Andrew Janoko play, if that turns out differently, I just yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: Pitt the history of Pitt's different, but that's not how things took out.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: So was he screwed?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I I I get it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, I get it.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: And like I said, even the Dolphins, I get it.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like I get you're you you can't be satisfied with you know what you think is mediocrity, but you know, as we've seen in both of those cases, moving on didn't really make them better.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: Did for Pitt long term it did eventually, but I mean it took a decade for them to recover from that.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: So moving on from Dave Weinstatt, um Tommy Maddox and people trashing his yard after a bad game, Tim.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I do.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I go to Tommy Maddox's house and dump my garbage there.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they thought it was a city dump.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they got confused.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, you know, that's an episode of Curb where he throws an apple in somebody's garbage can be like, no, take it home, you know.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that was it.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if you remember in Jacksonville, a game against Jacksonville was here in 2005.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Ben was hurt, and uh, he throws an interception to end the game.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh to Rasheen Mathis.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: He also had a fumble like when the Steelers were like an easy field goal range.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: He really had a bad game.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was like an unforced error.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like he just literally came up under Sunder and was like, like like you or me, like handling like normal stuff, not footballs.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so his agent states that people were harassing his kids and that fans threw trash on his lawn.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: But the fun part is later in the week, Maddox's wife disputes this, saying she didn't pick up any trash, and the kids are still riding the school bus.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I think what happened was Tommy Maddox cleaned up his front yard before his wife woke up and then took his kids to school.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't try to give his kids.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I don't know what happened.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the agent made something up to get sympathy.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe i they were just covering his wife was covering for the family.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I I I who knows what the truth is.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe she didn't want to like you know curry a will with the the rest of the people in Pittsburgh or look, you know, bad.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: If it did happen, it's a classless thing, and that would be an example of the fans mistreating Mr.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Maddox, who really did have a decent career.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I I until in a little postscript there, I don't think he's ever held a grudge against Pittsburgh for that.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So he always comes back and does stuff and anything like that, Tim.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So Tim, where were you on the night after the Jacksonville game and where was your garbage?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I um I remember that happening.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: I I didn't remember that it was disputed.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh like you said, if somebody did that, shame on them, that's terrible.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: I do remember there was a lot of anger though.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: People were really angry about it.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because we had still had a really good team, and Ben was just hurt.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you're just filling in.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: I think they put Charlie Batch in after that, didn't they?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: They did.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and and he they just needed somebody to fill because Ben was hurt for four games.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, dude, just go two and two.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Just go two and two, hand the ball off, throw a touchdown here and there if you need to, but just don't lose us the game.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and like you said, they when he throws that interception to Mathis, they're in Jacksonville territory.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: When he fumbles earlier in overtime, they're in Jacksonville territory.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, just take a knee and have the what is that, the water boy?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: How do you like that offense?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, seriously, at that point, it's like just yeah, just let the kicker come.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: And and granted, in those days in Heinzfield, it wasn't easy to kick long field goals, but but it's but that one wasn't they were inside the 20, I'm pretty sure.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: And you would have been less upset if Jeff Reed misses a field goal, right?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's the way you lose or tie.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: But but the fact that he threw a pick six and that's the way the game ends, with a pick six in overtime.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: People were really angry.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: Now, was anybody angry enough to go figure out where Tommy Maddox lives and dump trash on his lawn?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's again, like that's where I mean.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: I heard he picked up a homework assignment on the Louisiana Purchase and it had your name on it, Tim.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's what happens when you mess with people in the Alps.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, that was that's a big Lebowski reference, obviously.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but but you know, I Steve and I obviously are very passionate about sports why we do this podcast.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I get very, you know, excited when there's a big win, I get really upset sometimes when there's a big loss.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but but at some point you have to know how to separate your emotions from you know recognizing the fact that it's a sport, it's for entertainment, and uh, you know, taking it out on somebody like that or making threats or any other ridiculous stuff that we as fans do, um, that's not acceptable.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh going from trashing someone's house to just, I don't know, trashing someone's reputation.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: How about uh Dan Marino dropping in the draft due to drug accusations?
• 15:06
  unknown: Ooh.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you don't remember the 1983 draft happens, uh Dan Marino is drafted behind John Elway and Jim Kelly, which you're kind of like, okay, those guys are pretty good, right?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: And they had pretty good college careers.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: But then he drops behind, and that now Ken O'Brien ended up being okay, but Todd Blackledge, come on, Todd Blackledge, that that seems a little redongulous, and so everybody's kind of like, why?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Why did this happen?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: What happened?
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there were there is something he had a bad senior year, and I do have his stats in 81.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see, he had 34 touchdowns and 10 interceptions, and then in 1982, he has 17 touchdowns and 22 interceptions.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: So he really had a bad senior year at Pitt.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, people saying, why is he on drugs?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: What's going on?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, the Dolphins, did the Dolphins circulate a rumor about his drug use to drop him in the draft?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Was it Don Shula playing?
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: I it doesn't sound like something Don Shula would do.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I I I I he might change the rules to like, you know, screw Mel Blunt, but I don't know that sounds like a little beyond for even Don Shula, doesn't it?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: For his credit, Foge Fasio had a different theory, and it's it's a novel one at that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um a lot a lot of it was disappointment.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: We didn't beat the point spread.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's where the viciousness came out.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's only a college game, but there was an NFL strike at the time and no program, no pro games, and a lot of people focused their attention on colleges.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I and that that there maybe there is something to that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like people bet their money and they lost, and like the heck with this guy, he isn't any good.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, why isn't he any good?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: He must be on drugs, you know.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know, maybe maybe that was it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I the the that's talked about a lot.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, Gimbo Covert was his roommate, and he said that NFL there was at least one NFL team that actually asked him about it, and he was like, What are you talking about?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's ridiculous.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I would know I'm his roommate, you know, we we bang out all the time, we're teammates and roommates.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think that that was and and you know, if he was into I don't know, anything, it was probably very light recreational marijuana type stuff, if if even that.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: He obviously wasn't like a heavy drug addict.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_03: The the Steelers, you know, Chuck Knowle later gave an interview uh saying that that that scared them, you know, the drug rumors, whatever.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: But I I think that's honestly, I've said before, I think that's Chuck Knoll kind of trying to cover up for his mistake of not drafting Marino because Art Rooney literally hired two Pittsburgh police officers, undercover police officers, hired them to find out whether or not Dan Marino had a drug problem, and both of the police officers came back and reported to the Rooneys.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: No, he doesn't.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: So the Steelers knew he didn't have a drug problem.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of other teams probably knew that too.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um Kansas City, that's unacceptable.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know who the coach of Kansas City was in 1983, but that Todd Blackledge.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Ken O'Brien was a stretch, but at least Ken O'Brien kind of like in hindsight, they're like, well, he wasn't bad.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't Dan Breno, but he wasn't terrible, you know.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was it was I mean Todd Blackledge was a total bust, and he was a first-round pick.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean But again, you go back to like you said, that senior season, he he he fell off.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was the other thing.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you usually a college kid a college player like that, you know, a little better, you know, in the sophomore year, a little better in the junior year.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: And then you look at like Kenny Pickett, for example.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's senior year.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that or Joe Burrow, or there's a million other guys.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you're regressing in your senior year, if he comes out like the year before, like he probably goes, you know, number one overall.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know who had the number one pick that year, but yeah, probably right.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: And back then that didn't really happen like it does now.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you were allowed.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh were you were you allowed to leave calls?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good that's a good question.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really good question.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: But he um you know, he even said the 22 interceptions for him was like not a big deal because he there were games where they were losing, and he's like, if I've already thrown four interceptions, what's a fifth?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so it it it's I don't know.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: I I I I if the if uh you hate to see when um unsubstantiated rumors you know ruins a guy's draft position, but in that case, honestly, it probably worked out for the best for him.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he he was in a perfect situation in Miami, they wanted to play him right away.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: They had a legendary coach.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um it were I think it worked out better for him, honestly.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he got out of Pittsburgh, got away from some of the pressure probably that would have come with playing for the Steelers.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um for for his uh uh in uh what's his name, uh Dan Rooney's book, he came up with a plan.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he didn't, John Clayton, the late John Clayton, the ESPN reporter, had a plan where they could trade Cliff Stout for a draft pick and then draft Marino, but because Dan Marino said he opened with hey John Clayton and Art Rooney Jr.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: and Chuck Null were like, we're not listening to John Clayton.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: So unfortunately.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: So well, here's something we've we've talked about ad nauseum, but we'll do it again, Tim.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh how about Larry Fitzgerald's Heisman Trophy snub?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's Larry Fitzgerald has an amazing sophomore season.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's just he wins the Bolitnikov Award, but the local writer, it's not even the national writers.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I could understand maybe a national writer not voting for him and having their reasons.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: But like the fact that the two local writers wouldn't vote for him, I I think that really like I don't know why that bothered me.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it it's because like I could see like a national guy maybe not seeing all of his games and just seeing the big games where maybe he wasn't as productive.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like you could just see the talent dripping off this guy.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you watched any of his games, never mind, you know, you're supposed to be a local reporter, you're supposed to be covering sports in Pittsburgh, you should be going it'd be like, you know, well, Paul Skeens isn't that good, and then never going to any pirate games.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it it just always annoyed me because I don't think these guys go to the games.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then they offer opinions like this.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: So once again, like I talked about before, you know, all you have is your credibility in like media and business media businesses like this.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And when you do something like this, you really lose your creative credibility.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I he it basically Ron Cook doesn't vote for him because he doesn't touch the ball enough.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: They voted for Jason White over Larry Fitzgerald and Eli Manning.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, okay, great.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Jason, Jason White beat a Texas team that wasn't that great and then goes on to lose to Kansas State in the Big 12.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you know how many NFL players were on that Kansas State defense, Tim, that Jason White just couldn't figure out?
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Not many.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Zero.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: There were two like undrafted free agents.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So you tell me, you know, Blair Fitzgerald is playing against Miami against Antro Roll, who played in the NFL for seven years, and Sean Taylor, one of the greatest college safeties ever.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And they're double covering them, but yet, you know, oh, it's okay when Jason White has a bad game.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that happened after the vote.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, it just it just so if maybe if that Kansas State game happens before the vote, it's a little closer.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I the Kansas State defense had Terrence Newman and a guy named Mario Amore, and they were fifth and seventh round draft picks, so they didn't have anybody on that team.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Ron White had Ron Cook had I keep saying had uh White, uh Fitz uh first, Fitzgerald second, and Chris Perry third.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whatever.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Ron Cook retired in 2004 from the dying medium that is the newspaper.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it it didn't age well.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like the Marina thing, it didn't age well, you know, because Larry Fitzgerald was way more talented, proved over a Hall of Fame NFL career that he was way more talented.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: His logic was just so ridiculous to me.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, oh, they're it like even if you read this article, and I thought I posted it here, I guess I didn't.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you read the article, he's like, oh, you know, this isn't about guys who are going to be great in the NFL, because then you would just give it to Eli Manning, they're gonna be great in the NFL.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, who had the best college season?
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I whatever.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: I I just don't, I I don't get it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was it was a bad choice, and and and like you said, even if he would have lost to Eli Manning, we probably wouldn't even be talking about this, Tim, quite honestly.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that's that's probably true.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: I again go just like we said about the Cincinnati game, you know, f six years later, if that Miami game shakes out differently, because if Pitt wins that game, that last game of the season against Miami, if they win that, they're in the orange bowl.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if that happened, I don't think it I don't think it would have mattered, Tim.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think it would have mattered.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think it would have made a difference.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: I do.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I think Ron Cook just had his mind made up and he wasn't voting for him no matter what.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Larry unless Larry Fitzgerald played quarterback, he wasn't voting for him.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that that's that's all well and good.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: But you know what?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Once again, what did I say?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: You lose credibility, and what award lost credibility?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: The Heisman Trophy.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I don't pay attention.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care what the Heisman Trophy.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: So congratulations, Ron.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: You proved your point, but you might have won a short-term battle, but you lost the long-term.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you wanted to keep people watching the Heisman Trophy, why would I watch this stupid award that you don't even award to the best player?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, give me a break.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I think that I think the awards in general do lose credibility when you have just terrible decisions like that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_03: Same same deal with the heart trophy.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, well, that year they gave the heart trophy to Gretzky, even though Lemieux had like 30 more points.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it it it's it's yeah, you lose credibility when you make just all-time terrible decisions like that.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: And then people, like you said, they're like, okay, I it's a subjective popularity contest.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so what's what's really the point of caring?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean it's I mean you might as well read like the online, you know, uh, here's the top five quarterbacks in the NFL as as so says Joe's blog.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I mean, seriously, it just it doesn't that's really all it is at the end of the day.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's just your opinion, and like your opinion, like people I mean, hopefully people stop listening or paying attention to the Heisman Trophy, and that's the best thing that could happen to it, is people just stop caring.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: If it stops getting ratings, it stops meaning anything, like and costing ESPN tons of money, then you know, we'll see.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see how important it is to him then.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um, next up, uh how about let's go more current events here, Tim.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Mr.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Mason Rudolph.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: This guy, I I think you and I are gonna have a different opinion on this, but I think he's been totally jerked around by the Steelers by Mike Tomlin.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think Mike Tomlin has done him no favors, and I do not know why.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I have an idea why, but I'm not sure.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been a saga, Tim.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: I saw this guy play for Oklahoma State when they played Pitt, and he actually smoked the Pitts defense, Pitts defense.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: Pitts defense wasn't great that year, but I didn't think they were that bad.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, let's list the uh the list of offenses, Tim.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: So uh knocked out by Earl Thomas on a dirty hit.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: And remember what happened?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: I because I remember Mike Florio actually just absolutely criticizing the Steelers up and down in Pittsburgh, and they deserved it.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, he had to walk off the field after being knocked unconscious.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they made him look like an idiot.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: They took the front of his mask off.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: They do that, but normally you're laying down.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: He looked like an idiot.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: They made him look like an idiot on national TV because the city of Pittsburgh and the Steelers are too cheap to have their equipment working.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: I said it.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, he looks like an idiot there.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Then in 2019, he gets in a fight with Miles Garrett.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Did he say something?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't he?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think if he if they could prove that he said something, they he would have been blackballed out of the league.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they uh and I think that people think he said something.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: At least Miles Garrett said he said, and I I was kind of like I I kind of like read it to believe that, maybe, because Miles Garrett really hasn't has Miles Garrett had an incident since the helmet smashing thing, he really hasn't done anything besides play football.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so I I don't know.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe Miles Garrett just had a bad day.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it happens.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, following the 2021 season, the Steelers staff showed confidence in Rudolph.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Kevin Colbert stated, we would build the team around Rudolph.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, now I'm gonna put that in context.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: What was happening was they hadn't drafted another quarterback yet, and people were like, Well, what are you gonna do a quarterback?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: It was before the draft.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Well, if we don't get one, we'll build around Mason Rudolph with that team that season.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's what he meant.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe that's not when you put it in context, it's not as bad.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's September 5th, 2022.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um the the the Steelers release a depth chart showing Rudolph be listed as a second string quarterback behind Mitchell Trubisky and ahead of Kenny Pickett.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: The following day, Rudolph was demoted the third string quarterback with Mike Tomlin saying, and this is the biggest fib ever.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, it's just a lie.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know it's a lie, I know it is a lie.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, don't you know what on my shoe and tell me it's raining.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, clerical error.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't believe that for a New York minute.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: I think Kenny Pickett complained.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why am I not the backup?
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm playing great, and they knew Mason Rudolph wouldn't complain, and so they did the old switcheroo.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, and Mike Talman tried to cover for everybody, which I guess is a good thing, you know.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then he comes in in 2023, he saves their season, gets them to the playoffs with a team that really wasn't that great, saves Mike Tyland's bacon, saves his all-sacred you know, record of not having a losing season.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, he he leaves, he goes to Tennessee, doesn't have much luck there because they're in love with Will Levis, who really, if they would have started Mason Rudolph, Tennessee makes the playoffs that year, I think.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because Levis single-handedly lost them two to three games.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so they I mean, not that they had a great team, but I thought their defense played well at the beginning of the season and well enough to win the games that they lost.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: So why is he treated like this, Tim?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is it just the life of an NFL backup?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: He does have some political views, he's a Trump guy, so does that get him some grief?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Is it the Miles Garrett Garrett incident fallout that he's just still suffering from?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh what what what what are we going with here, Tim?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I I he's got a very perplexing career.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: And and you you also left out that when he was drafted, Ben kind of threw a little bit of a Yeah, yeah.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: So that didn't that didn't help, like that's how his career started, was like Ben's like, what why'd we draft this guy for?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then he gets hurt, and people say that he he got benched over Duck Hodges.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, he was hurt, he was literally hurt.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but but so so here, I I okay, let me say this.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: I agree with you.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: I agree he's been jerked around.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't understand it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: I don't understand.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: Why he can't well, I mean, I guess he came back, he likes it here, maybe.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I think the fans like him, and I think the fans seem to see through all this.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: So let me let me let me go with your side and then I'll I'll do devil's advocate.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I because I do tend to agree with you, right?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like he he's gotten jerked around.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: I I didn't understand why they didn't commit to him after Ben retired.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: You could still draft Kenny Pickett, and and but I don't know why they needed to sign Trubisky.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um but and then after 2023, they wouldn't commit to him, they didn't want to re-sign him.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: They went with Russell Wilson instead.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, then they brought him back this year and we're just waiting to see, you know, well, he's our insurance chip in case Aaron Rodgers decides he wants to retire.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: You know, now, devil's advocate, okay?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um he he has a chance in 2019.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, he gets hurt.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: Was he playing lights up before that?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Does he come back in later in the season when Duck Hodges is just miserable?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't do much then.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he gets into that game in 2021 because Ben, I think, had COVID.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: COVID at the last minute, played in the rain and threw a pass to Johnson that would have been for a field goal or a touchdown, and Johnson fumbles.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: So oh yeah, that that that was Mason Rudolph's fault.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but right, Tomlin.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right, Mike?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: Explain to me how that was Mason.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: What was Mason Rudolph do wrong on that play?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I want to hear the breakdown from an NFL coach on what your quarterback did wrong on that play.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_03: That ended in a tie.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_03: And you're right, there was a fumble and overtime that wasn't Mason's fault, but that game also went into overtime.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it was in the rain.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't do much in that game, though.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: He did the offense is published.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: They dropped another pass in the end zone, didn't they?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: Earlier in the game.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: The offense, the offense was bad.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like he was lighting up every everything, and the receivers were dropping everything.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_03: That was one or two plays.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm again, I'm just giving Devil's Advocate.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: 2023, when he comes in and saves the season, he throws some bad interceptions in the playoff game against Buffalo.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then he does come back here in 2025.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if he was really jerked around and mistreated, he could have gone somewhere else very easily.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: He's a he's a quality backup.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody else would have gave him uh an opportunity somewhere else for sure, and he chose back here.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe, maybe it's just this the way the NFL game works.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like the guy, and I hope I think he's gonna play.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_02: I I wish him the best.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: I hope if he won a Super Bowl with the Steelers, it would make me so happy.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_03: I again I agree with you, Steve.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying I think that there is a fair devil's advocate side to this, and I don't think I think him coming back maybe shows that yes, he got jerked around, and yes, there were some unfair things that happened to him, but I don't think he feels that way because he chose to come back.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's fair enough.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough, fair enough.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I still hope somehow it comes back to play because people when they get it, it's like it always comes back that you treat somebody like that, it always comes back to play.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: He's a good guy, too.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: He's a good person, he's an easy, it's like the opposite of like when we had the killer bees.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's so easy to root for him and want him to succeed.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: So all right, another uh we'll we'll move on to the pirates here.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: We'll save that other Steelers story for later.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: How about Ralph Kiner?
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Remember him, Tim?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: We we can finish in first with or last with or without him.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he got traded because he didn't get along with Branch Ricky.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's pretty much what it boiled down to.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: On this is a great story.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: On June 4th, 1953, the Pirates have a 15 and 28 record, which is not as bad as the Chicago White Sox of 2024 or the current day Colorado Rockies.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: But it's up there.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they trade, they trade Rave Connor, Ralph Kynard to the Cubs for 10 players and a pack of Wrigley's gum, and I think some Ivy for the Pirates' office.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um like the Pittsburgh press, when you look at the it was like, okay, we got the font we used for the bombing of Pearl Harbor when the war was over.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go with that, guys.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've been ditching to use it for like 10 years, ever since we won the war.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going with this.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: V-Day, Ralph Kiner traded.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: So uh the salary, he had a grand salary of Tim, and this is I'm not gonna say anything, but$75,000 was what he was looking for, which doesn't sound like a lot now, but back in 1950 something, I'm sure that was worth millions.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates tried to deal off Kiner early in the spring, negotiating with the Braves Reds.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: Kiner was also engaged in a long holdout battle with Ricky over salary, and he didn't report to training camp.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Where do you think training camp was that year, Tim?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: Well, not in Florida?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, an even better place.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: It is 1950.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: What are we looking at?
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: The 52 or no 53 would have been the winter of 53.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: They are having your Pittsburgh Pirates are having their spring training in a little place called Havana, Cuba.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or Havana, Cuba.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, maybe Cash wasn't Castor still trying out for the senators or whoever, yeah.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe if they would have signed Fidel Castro, the whole timeline of our timeline would be different.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um Kiner has a clause calling for a 5,000 bonus if he five thousand dollar bonus if you were sold or traded.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, President Warren Giles of the National League asked recently that this clause be eliminated, and Kiner signed a new contract dropping that bonus clause, which is that's hurts.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like that hurts.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, yeah.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess he had to.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I guess because maybe it violated the reserve clause.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is definitely one of the incidents that led to baseball getting a union.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh fan reaction, fans 50-50, but thank goodness they're violent either way.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess to see that nothing's changed.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna fight.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I want to keep Ralph Keiner.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, he's a bum.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Let's trade him.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Woo!
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that headline.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: And that's and they're and they're saying that that the people were calling the Pittsburgh press with violent phone calls about the trade.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's wow.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so Ricky wanted Kiner to play first base.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he didn't want to, he played the outfield.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Kiner went to the owner, John Galbreth, over Ricky's uh over Ricky's head with his salary demand.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So Kiner goes to the ownership, and Kiner.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um not Kyner, Ricky proposed composed a personal memo with this in it.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um so seven days after receiving this contract, Brad and Shrike in his writes a memo to John Galeth, and this is he writes it's a little limerick, and it's pretty covered to him.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Babe Ruth could run.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: This is all referring to Ralph Kiner.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: Babe Ruth could run, our man cannot.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Babe Ruth could throw, our man cannot.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Babe Ruth could steal a base, our man cannot.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Babe Ruth is a good feeler, our man is not.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: Ruth could hit with power to all fields, our man cannot.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Ruth never requested a diminutive field to fit him.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Our man does.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean that's up there with E.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Cummings or you know, Edgar Allan Poe, or who else is a famous pot of Amaya Angelou.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: Abe Ruth could put away a 24-pack of ores.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Our man cannot.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh goodness gracious, what that's insane, isn't it?
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's man.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, it's very literative.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love I love the writing.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody writes like this any like literally composes this in like a could you imagine writing something that's to your boss about an issue at work?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: It it it smacks a little bit of petty.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like I I I I think it's it sounds in that writing a little bit like Brandricke maybe like had some personal feelings hurt.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's what that's well.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: I think going over his head and then the fact that he was asking for so much money, yeah, you know, it was like, no, we're not playing.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and and that was to be fair, that was the day and age, like you said, before a union where you know their players are cattle.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_03: You don't you don't you you get what you get and you don't get upset, and we'll pay you what we want to pay you what you think you're worth.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and there was no free agency, there was no bargaining, there was no holdouts, that none of that stuff existed at the time.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there was a reserve clause, a team owed you until they didn't want you anymore.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um the whole thing, the Cuba thing, was uh they had promised in spring training in Havana, Cuba, that if that Kiner would be there and when he didn't show up, um the money they had promised the Cubans they they didn't get.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: So they were probably upset a little bit upset about that too.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I heard you know the bourgeoisie was you know really sticking it to the baseball proletariat there, and you know how it is with these things.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Baseball players of the world unite.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think Yeah, seriously, I guess.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that's about it on that one.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Ralph Keiner did go to uh where'd he go?
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: He went to the Cubs and then he went to the Mets for a while at the end.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: He ended up hitting over 500 home runs, but he was in decline at that point.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: He he really was.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: But anywho, uh let's see where how about Yamer Jagger?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yager, you like a good Jagger story?
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: So Yammer Jager is a Czech hockey player, and he's pretty good.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: And he comes over here in what, 90, 91?
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 91 with his flowing mullet.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: He wins a couple Stanley Cups, he carries the team through some dark years.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, the penguins are in bankruptcy, and they decide they need to trade him because he's really expensive and they can't afford him.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: And hockey did not have a salary cap at that point.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the Capitals just had a new owner, Ted Leonis, who had oodles of money and were in a major market, I guess, bigger than Pittsburgh.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so they trade Jagger for three prospects Chris Beach, Michael Sivek, and Ross Lupche.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, basically, the Penguins get nothing.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Capitals, for their part, did overpay for Yager.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: He really didn't do much in Washington, they didn't even make the playoffs.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um every uh he got traded to the Rangers after a couple years.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Jager didn't get along with head coach even the late Ivan Halenka, who was actually brought from the Czech Republic to coach Jarm Jager.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um he got booed for a long time in Pittsburgh because of that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I always thought, you know, when he he didn't deserve to get booed until he signed with Philadelphia after kind of playing Pittsburgh against the Flyers.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, well then, yeah, that's kind of ridiculous on his part.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: But then on February 18th, 24, the Penguins retired his number and everyone cheered, and he's been officially forgiven, even though he beat us in that series in Philadelphia when Mark Contre Fleury wasn't playing too well.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: I always thought it was unfair that he got booed here because it wasn't you know his fault he got traded.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean they just couldn't afford him.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I I have a little bit different of a take and and full disclose disclosure.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_03: I was at the first game where he came back and I I I booed.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's just because you're wrong.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: Did you dump trash on his lawn, Tim?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_03: It it I think the anger wasn't just because he got traded, because we had to get rid of a lot of guys back then.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: We had to get rid of Alexei Kovalev, and Alexei Kovalev never got booed when he came back, right?
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And he was a really good player for us.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I think Jager, it it just he was such a malcontent those last three or four years, you know, the dying alive comment, which was to be fair, was overblown.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you know, he didn't like Kevin Constantine, so they got rid of Kevin Constantine, and then they brought in literally his coach from the Czech Republic, and he can't get along with him.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, the guy couldn't even speak English.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's why they eventually fired him.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: Because he couldn't speak English and he wouldn't learn English.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: But but like literally the the the so it was just like the the the team bent over backwards to try to accommodate him, and he was never really happy.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we never won any championships when it was just him.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think he single-handedly beat who was at the devils that one.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: He did.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: But but I'm just saying, people people were exhausted by all that.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: And by that point, it's like, you know what, we have to trade him fine.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: People were exhausted.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I and I think it was an appropriate level of people were mad at him for a while, but he's not Antonio Brown.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean he's not on that level.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: And if you brought back Antonio Brown today and retired his number, you wouldn't have people here.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it was an appropriate level of appropriate amount of time to be angry at him.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was short-lived, and then people got over it for all the good things.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a game, Sidney Crosby's rookie year.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: What year was that?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: 2005, 2006?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: And they he was playing for the Rangers.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Every time he touched a puck, they booed him.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_03: And that was 2006, too.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: It was a few years after.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, but I'm saying my my point is being that people didn't stay mad at him for the rest of time.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what I think that's uh to me that that's where you know eventually time heals wounds.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, people are able to remember, okay.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_03: He did you know we had more good memories than bad memories with Yarmer Yager, and that's to me it it that's what's more important.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Tim likes to boo players.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_03: Now you pay by I stand by my booing, sir.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: No, hey, you bought your ticket, you can say whatever you want.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we're gonna go back to this, and this has been covered a couple times at different podcasts here.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the Salvation Army and how Tom Donaho isn't running it.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh Rod Woodson's a great player for almost 10 years, and then he leaves via free agency to San Francisco, has like a pretty mediocre year in San Francisco, but they lose in the championship game to Dallas, if I remember correctly.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, uh Rod's just kind of like uh he he he's he can't really play corner anymore at a high level, like you were used to him.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: So he he gets cut, I think, that very next year by the 49ers, and he's a free agent.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: And people are like, hey, bring back Rod Woodson.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you probably get him at a discounted rate.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll go with the quote here.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_02: Players such as Woodson and outside linebacker Kevin Green, that they're being asked, Tom Donahue, do you want to bring back Woodson or Kevin Green?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: And Donahue replied, We're not running the salvation army.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: Bum, bum, boom.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Woodson for his part, and this is an article a few years later in the Baltimore Sun, said, I don't dislike him as a person, is he speaking about Donahue?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think he's a good person, said Woodson.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: He turned down a bat who turned down a backloaded four-year, seven million contract offered by the Steelers in '96.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: He's done some good things in this league, but I don't approve of the way he's criticized former Steelers for going out and trying to make the most money that they can.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I I you know Rod Woodson would go on to win a Super Bowl with the Ravens, have a really good, nice second half of his career with the Raiders.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um Todd Vamahoe, for his credit, did end up with the Eagles as a scout when they won their Super Bowl with Nick Foles in 2017.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I I don't know.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just like you said, I you've said this before on this podcast, Tim, how there was an adjustment period to free agency.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think this was just part of the painful, much like World War I was the painful adjustment from the monarchy to democracy in Europe.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, free NFL free agency, World War I.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: We we did a whole episode about Tom Donahoe's time in Pittsburgh and how it started off really good and then how it collapsed in the later years, and it was really because he never quite figured out how to manage the the brave new world of free agency.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_03: And to be fair, a lot of teams struggled to figure that out.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they either paid, they either went the other direction, like Dan Snyder, and paid too much for players that were too old, or you did like the Steelers.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: You maybe try and find a middle ground where we keep a player, or you get like a Jerome Bettis, or you know what I mean?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: And and and yes, that's exactly right.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: And too too many, too many Chad Scott's, not enough Jerome Bettis's.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean too many kids, too many Kent Graham's, not enough Jerome Bettis.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really what did in Donahue was his later draft picks, more so than free agency.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: But but but this this was a huge mistake because when they originally left.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: If they bring back Woodson and put him at safety, they bridge because remember, they didn't have a save.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: They had Brent Alexander, they had uh who's the guy that couldn't tack it?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: Travis Davis.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, longest punt return in Steelers history, though.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Even Lee Flowers, like he would have been if they have Woodson at safety, they probably win that game against Brady.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like potentially.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it it's it's just it was a huge mistake because and and letting him go wasn't a mistake.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say that.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think I think that was appropriate, but then when he came around the second time, you have to kind of put apart your personal feelings like, okay, is this a price I can work with, talk to the coaches, and then maybe, oh, well, we want to move him to safety, is Rod want to move to safety.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it took Rod Woodson even a year or two to figure out that he was a safety and not a corner anymore.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and but but that wasn't the reason.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: The re the reason wasn't, hey, we'd love to bring you back to play safety, and Woodson was like all stubborn and wouldn't do it.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: The reason was no, you left.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_03: After you've left, that door forever.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're dead to me.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: You're dead to me.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's really a terrible way to like and Woodson says like this, like Woodson real, you know, he said it back in 1998 that this is a business.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: And people say that all the time today.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_03: Players, yeah, general managers, they all recognize that.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: But back then you have to remember, like you said, Steve, same thing with Brant Ricky.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: The that was not the case for years.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_03: You owned players, players did what you told them to do.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_03: You were the boss, they were the they were the employees, and that was the mentality.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and so that's kind of the way that Donahoe thought.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, once you left, you're gone.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that was just a a really dumb mistake.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: And you see that all the time now.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we heck, we just talked about Mason Rudolph.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you see that all the time where guys leave and then we bring them back because it fills the need and it makes sense, and they've been here before, and fans love them, and whatever.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_03: McCutcheon, I mean, go on and on down the list.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: You just see that all the time now.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_03: But back then, you know, again, it just wasn't the way it was.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: So but yes, huge mistake and dumb reasons for it.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: So um, shifting gears.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you like Mike Prasuda, Tim?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_03: I really, yeah, I like Mike Prasuda a lot.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you're you're you're gonna you're gonna make he's gonna look like a fool in about 30 seconds.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty, here we once again.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_02: What did I say about credibility, Tim?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: You gain it in drips and you lose it in buckets, just like trust, you know, same thing.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: So Russ Grimm, he's an offensive line coach.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_02: He was a great player at Pitt.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: He was a great player at the Reds, uh, whatever they're called this week.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: The team in Washington.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he was great.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: And he ends up being a really good offensive line coach and a pretty good offensive mind with that that blocking scheme that he got from Joe Bugle that you know Denver kind of used.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, he he's he's a good guy, and he he's they're thinking he's a head coaching candidate, and he looks like he could be.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it would be a nice so the background is where in 2006 Bill Cower has retired after that eight and eight season, or was it nine and seven?
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: I can't.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: Nine and seven.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was eight and eight, but remember um we won on the the last second play to send Cower out and win it.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: And yeah, nobody remembers that Cower's last team was eight and eight because that that destroys the narrative that Tomlin doesn't get any credit for winning after that.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: So go ahead, proceed.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, um so they they're looking for a new head coach, basically.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: So they they replace the they're interviewing.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's see, who are they interviewing?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: They interview Ken Wisenhunt, offensive coordinator, Ron Rivera, Cam Cameron, Russ Grimm, and some defensive backs coach from Minnesota named Mike Tomlin.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we know who Ken Wizenhunt is.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: We know who Ron Rivera is.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: Cam Cameron, I remember him coaching in San Diego, and he he seemed to me to be the classic better offensive coordinator than coach kind of guy, like um Norf Turner.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: He kind of reminds me of Norf Turner.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, we have Russ Scrimm.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: So the finalists end up being Mike Tomlin and Russ Grimm, from what I can tell, because it's not completely clear what happens here.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_02: So Mike Pursuda, who is a reporter at the time for the Tribune Review, is he still on TV's morning show?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: Does there sports?
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: I believe so, yeah.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: Tim doesn't listen to the radio anymore.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: He's only listening to podcasts, that's right.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um so at at the time, he reports that Russ Grimm has the job.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: So Russ Grimm, next head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: We're going Chuck Knoll, Bill Cower, Russ Grimm, right?
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what's the problem with that, Tim?
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: Never happened.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's an alternate timeline.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um the problem was that Mike Tomlin had actually got the job.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so now there's a couple different stories here.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: The first first story is that the details that so and I've never heard of this before.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: Normally, although I don't know, maybe have you gotten your pay discussed before you got the job offer?
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think I guess I have.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean when you get job, they tell you how much they're gonna pay you.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, because people often negotiate.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't want this, I don't want that.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: You give me, you know, weekends and February off, you know, whatever.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess you do get the pay before you accept the final offer.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I think they believe, at least Russ Grimm's agent thinks that they're hired because okay, here's money, blah, blah, blah, whatever other details are in this contract.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess what the Steelers had done was like, okay, we got Russ Grimm and Mike Tomlin, let's make our offer to each of these people and just say, hey, you're a finalist, we'll call you on Sunday and tell you who the coach is.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I guess this paperwork had gotten into the league office too.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so we think that the agent called Mike Persuda and told him that Russ Grimm was the coach.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that might be where Russ Grimm, but there's also information that was leaked from the NFL league, which makes me doesn't believe that maybe they did have Russ Grimm penciled in, or I don't know.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: Dan Rooney says he blamed the agent and he blamed um the league too.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: So Russ Grimm doesn't get the job, and he says it was tough.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm disappointed, but I'm not bitter.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's time to move on.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: He goes to Arizona where Ken Wizenhunt actually remember he dropped out of the hiring process because he got a job in Arizona.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: And him and uh Wizenhunt go to Arizona.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um League of uh Dan Rooney blames the league for leaking the story and the agent for misinterpreting what was going on.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um Dan Rooney states I have a tremendous amount of respect for Russ.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: I hope he gets that shot to be a head coach.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_02: Gee, Tim, I wonder if that's ever gonna happen.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: Don't wait.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, yeah.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: Russ Grimm goes on the coach offensive line for Arizona with Ken Wisenhunt.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: Both have a matchup with Tomlin and Super Bowl 43, which unfortunately for them doesn't go their way.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: Good for us, I guess.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: Boy, that that one does.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_02: The more Super Bowl 43, I'm glad we won it, but at the same time, boy, it would have been nice to see.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't have been too upset.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been one game if we would have lost.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: I really wouldn't have been that broke up over because it's like, oh, you know, Ken Wisenhunt won, you know, the uh you know, Russ Grimm won, Larry Fitzgerald won, Kurt Warner won.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like that was a that's another team that's easy to root for.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: That that that Arizona Cardinals team that year.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh to his part, Russ Grimm retired from coaching in 2017.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Never did get that shot to be head coach.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: What is it?
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: Amiscommunication, league leak, overzealous agent.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: What what do you think happened?
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I have no idea.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: I it's not clear what happened.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: I I have no idea either.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: And Mike Versuda isn't, I'm just messing with Mike Persuda.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: He really isn't a bad reporter.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: I I think he just he had a source, they gave him it, and you you're supposed to have two or three sources, and I think he just had one and just went with it.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or he considered, well, I talked to Russ Grimm and his agent, they're both saying the same thing.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I it it it that honestly that that was the worst part because Mike Prasuda is uh like you said, he's a you know, there's there's people in this town, especially now that you have so many, you know, b back in the day you had like the the two newspapers and you had you know a very small number of reporters.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_03: Now you just have all these personal online personalities and radio.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_03: But they don't know anything.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_03: They don't and they don't they don't actually cover the team.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_03: They're not down there, they're not in the locker room.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's one clown in particular who's on the fan, which is a radio station here in Pittsburgh, I won't name him.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_03: But he posts stuff on Twitter all the time.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_03: A source says that the stewards are gonna trade for Terry McLaurin.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like you don't know any, you don't cover any of this stuff.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_03: You're not there, you don't have a source.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then two weeks later when Terry McLaurin signs, you know, re-signs with Washington, you know, said Clown just moves on to other stuff.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: He's never held accountable.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_02: But if people the accountability is people just don't listen to him anymore.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's the boy Croydon.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, that's fair too.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_03: But Mike Persuda, you know, he was he had that credibility, and it's it's a shame that that put a dent in it, at least temporarily, because I think you're right.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: He would never Mike Persuda was not a sensation.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_03: This wasn't clickbait.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_03: This was not clickbait, yeah.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_03: 100%, you know, and and if he reported it, then he believed it and he got it from reputable places.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: I firmly believe that.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: It just it happens.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: Same thing with the Mark Madden TJ Watts story.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think Mark Madden really had a source.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think he made that one up about him going to Wisconsin or something, or I don't know.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was such a silly rumor anyway.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, moving on to the PSD resistance, the last one.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: Are you ready to get fired up, Tim?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know we don't agree on this issue at all.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: At least we didn't back in the 90s.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you've changed your mind.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't talked to you about this is a weird part where like I consider myself politically a little more libertarian than most people, and I don't think that tax dollars should be going to fund uh stadiums for billionaire owners, and it's weird that I agree with John Oliver, who I agree with very little about, or Bernie Sanders, and it's weird that we have the same opinion on that exact subject.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that odd, Tim?
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but but we agree, but for different reasons.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like we agree.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: I just think that the government shouldn't be involved in that.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_02: They think that you know, rich people should pay for their own stuff, which is fine.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really care who pays for it as long as it's not the government.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you know a lot, everybody in Green Bay wants to pitch in five bucks to get a new Lambeau field.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: What the hell do I care?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's their money.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: But anyway, so in 2006, um, the penguins need a new arena.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: Civic Arena was not ever designed for hockey.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_02: We've discussed it ad nauseum.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_02: It was an outdoor arena for the Civic Light Orapa, it was for operas and singing and maybe basketball.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: Hockey, not so much.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_02: It was not a great place to watch hockey.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: There were obstructed view seats, and it wasn't in a charming way like Wrigley Field or Fenway Park.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_02: It would just kind of stunk to watch hockey.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it did have a cool roof that didn't open after Howard Baldwin pulled put the seats in, but um, even that was kind of like uh it was time to get a new thing, and everybody agreed with that.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the backstory is is when the pirates and the Steelers asked for it, they put a plan A forward and it got defeated.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: Remember that?
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_02: We because we argued over that, and you were in favor of it, Tim.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm not miscarriaging, were you in favor of I'm not being court, I'm not mischaracterizing you.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_03: You're in favor of public funding of these stadiums at that time.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let me explain.
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't mean to like put you like you're on court or anything.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_02: Explain your position here.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: Let I'll let you have that.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I so no, I'm not in favor of it.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think that that's I agree that you you make like my good my goodness, the NFL especially, but baseball teams as well.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_03: You make so much money, and then you're going to reap so much money from that stadium.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_03: And they use this argument that, well, it's good for the community, and it is.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_03: When they built PNC Park, I I've worked on the north side for the last 25 years, Steve.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I can tell you, so I worked over there when Three River Stadium was still there, and and there was a sea of parking lots.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_03: And when I went out to lunch to eat, there was nowhere to go, there was no thriving businesses.
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_03: And when they built those stadiums, a lot got there's hotels over there now, there's restaurants.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I was I was just down there yesterday for the uh Savannah Bananas game.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Me and my wife went to the Ribfest.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: We stopped at a little restaurant there, had a had an adult beverage.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we listened to a Clark's concert.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was a blast.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that that is vibrant, it's a vibrant area now.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: But why why can't the the they they run it anyway?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: They yeah, we have a stadium authority that is just a bunch of yes men for for the people with money.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I why why can't just let the Roonies or whoever run it, whoever I mean, as long as they aren't burning the place down or causing some sort of ruckus, I don't care.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just saying that the the argument that it does it does it does benefit the community as a whole, I I don't think that that's a ridiculous argument.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_03: That being said, I do think that they should pay for their own stadiums.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_03: Here's where I have a problem.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: If you take a stand and say, we're not doing that here, somebody else will.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_03: So the only way that that works is if you pass a literally a federal law that prohibits any local government from using public tax dollars.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's the only way it works.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: But Tim, that's been an argument going back to the 19th century when they argued over building roads.
• 1:05:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because like, well, how does you know I-79 and Erie benefit a guy in you know Charleston, West Virginia?
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know, but Well, well, I my point just being that that I I'm I'm in favor of doing it only because you have to, and if you don't, somebody else will.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think it's worth losing your team over because that's going to really hurt the community in general.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's my point.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
• 1:05:57
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get to the topic at hand.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um the penguins.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: And their arena deal.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: So in 2006, and this is what really galls me, is that there's so gambling becomes legal in between plan B getting passed and forced down everybody's throat after a referendum failed and the politicians did it anyway.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then now the Penguins, so they've already set the precedent.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: We're paying for stadiums.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: Public funding stadium, we're just going to do it.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: So now the arena deal comes up, and the penguins really do need a new arena.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: At the time, you could argue, well, you know, Three River Stadium is only 30 years old, you know, it's not the greatest, but we can still get away with it.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_02: So now the penguins want a new arena, and they go and they go, hey, if you give us the casino license for Pittsburgh, or one of the licenses, the one of the gambling license, we can finance our own arena ourselves, no public money, no nothing.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: 100% privately funded.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: All we need from you is this casino license.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: IOF Capri was the name of the company.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: They're still around.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to literally build a casino, an arena, a hotel, the whole nine yards, everything.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: For free, Tim.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: For free.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_02: Not only for free, they were going to pay for it with tax dollars that would be generated.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to pay for the casino license.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like this was the sweetest deal ever.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: But no, no, no.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_02: Enter the you know, the old-timey villain.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_02: He should have had a mustache, jerk from Philadelphia, didn't negotiate with the Eagles, didn't negotiate with the Flyers or the Phillies.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Why not, Ed?
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_02: Why didn't you?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're from Philadelphia, you scumbag.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_02: In with the Clintons.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't not a friend of Barack.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: He's a Clinton guy, and this is why he never was able to run.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: While that and him being bald and an idiot, could never, I just cannot stand Ed Rendell.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_02: My contempt for Ed Rendell knows no bounds because of this.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't get the casino license.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: It goes to Ron Barton, who had no business getting it, who built the crappiest casino in the country.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't even build it, Steve.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_03: He ran out of money.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_03: They had to fit somebody else had to build it.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when they built it, it's the only casino in the country that didn't have a stage for live events and didn't have a hotel.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, who builds what casino doesn't have a it's ridiculous.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was the most idiotic thing ever done.
• 1:08:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just done in I mean, I don't mean the B smurch, this Barden guy, it fell in his lap, and good for him and Jerome Bettis.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: It was done, given to them the cover to say, oh, see, we didn't give it to our political friends.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's the whole reason it was chosen to give political cover to Ed Rendell because he was not going to let the penguins do this without public money.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not about the money, it's about control.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_02: You can say when they go, where they go, how they go, who gets hired, who gets fired.
• 1:09:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what it's all about.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_02: And how much kickbacks does I get?
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_02: How many donations to the Clinton Foundation or whatever Rendell charity you run do you think he got from this, Tim?
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm wrong.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe wrong, but I guarantee you he did.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_02: I guarantee you he did.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_02: So the Penguins, Mario and Ron Burkle have to now negotiate with the godfather of Philadelphia, Ed Rendell, who's governor at this time.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he goes, Well, we're not gonna have a deal.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'll do the timeline.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_02: December 20th, 26th, the casino deal falls through.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: January 7th, 2007, Mario and Ron Burkle go to Kansas City to look at arena, the T-Mobile Arena.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: It does exist, Tim.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: It even has a hockey setup.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: It still exists to this day in Kansas City, Missouri.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: Also, Houston and Las Vegas are rumored to have offers for a hockey team.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, according to the CBC, um, Winnipeg, Portland, Oregon, and possibly Oklahoma City have offers.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in January 24th of 2007, the Postgazette Prince that Rendell states a deal is so good that he will ask the NHL to block the move if the penny if the penguins try to move.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: So now he's trying to hem the penguins into his crappy deal.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's how D I I hate I maybe this is just a negotiation and I'm getting too I just it's so frustrating.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: So here's a comparison: Kansas City, 276 million sprint center arena, no construction cost for the penguins, no rent, 50-50 split of the building revenues, Pittsburgh,$300 million arena.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Penguins have to play pay 18% of the cost, but apparently that's less than the Pirates paid the PC Park.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the current proposal at the time called for$2 million a year in rent.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: But the penguins keep all arena revenues and half of the parking proceeds.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a pretty close.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know what the 18% in the 50-50 split, how that breaks out money-wise, or so March 5th, the Penguins move a step closer to leaving Pittsburgh, declaring on Monday an impasse in their new arena negotiations with state and local leaders, saying they will actively pursue relocation.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_02: The penguins are leaving, Tim.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Are you panicking yet?
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Were you panicking in March of 2007?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_03: No, I figured it would all work out, honestly.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: I I yeah, Governor Rundell said he felt an agreement was close.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: It also increased the possibility that the penguins will be playing in Kansas City.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we this is Mario.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: We have made a single-minded effort to bring this new arena to a successful conclusion and keep the team in Pittsburgh.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Mario and Ron Burkle said in a letter to Rendell and the local government officials our good faith offers have not produced a deal, however, and have only added more anxiety to what we thought was at best a risky proposition for us moving forward.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_02: I love risky propositions, like you know, day old uh milk.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in the letter, Lemie and Berkle put the blame for the impasse on officials.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um 120 million over 30 years to help build a 290 million arena and cost construction and cost overruns.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the guy who owns the the Kansas City thing, some guy named William Boots Delgado to the third.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's a heck of a name.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: He expressed pessimism the NHL would move hockey out of a great city like Pittsburgh.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: So he's kind of seeing through this.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: This is just a negotiating tactic tactic.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Rendell states on Tuesday that an exceptionally attractive offer was on the table for the Penguins.
• 1:13:04
  SPEAKER_02: They would continue to work with all parties.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then he said, Oh, they're tough negotiators.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_02: And what everybody forgets is Rendell literally took his shoe off his foot and was pounding it on the table.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Or not the shoe, he didn't take his shoe off, he just was pounding it on the table like it was F a Khrushchev or something.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_02: What an idiot.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh what an absolute idiot.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_02: This guy was in charge of Pennsylvania for eight years, Tim.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: So March 12, 2007, uh, they say this is a great day for hockey.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's happy.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_02: They announced the arena deal.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Governor Rendell said the negotiating were more complicated than those to finance four new baseball stadiums and football stadiums in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia's because other cities were bidding for the team to move.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, what a what a what a piece of work he is.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, do you think they did that because you weren't negotiating good faith, Ed?
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean uh with the other four stadium deals, none of those teams had open competition that was trying to take the team.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Here we had Kansas City making a very good, some might say terrific offer, and we had to respond.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh darn, poor Ed.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you should have just given him the gambling license and moved on with your life.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_02: So 2011, in the ultimate irony of irony, guess what, Tim?
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_02: The Penguins finally play a hockey game in Kansas City.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_02: In 2011, they played a preseason game against the Kings.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think the Kings were technically the home team.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Ed Rendell's the bad guy.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: He played games with a casino license and almost had the Penguins move to the other city, but what does he care?
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's not Philadelphia or the Flyers.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_03: So so Yeah, I agree with everything you said.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're listening to this and you're thinking this sounds a little bit like a conspiracy theory, okay, then then explain this, Batman.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, explain some other logical reason why you would turn down the team finding a way to finance the arena themselves without taking all the tax money.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Because you can't.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_03: Because that that's that's what happened.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_03: They they the we just said at the beginning of this, boy, we all lament the fact that we have to use tax dollars to build stadiums.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_03: Why can't these rich owners pay for it themselves?
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_03: And the penguins literally came back and said, you know what, we'll pay for it ourselves.
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_03: All you have to do is give us a casino license.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_02: And not only would we pay for it, we would pay you on top of this.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't free.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't even free.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_02: They were actually paying us for the right to exist.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_03: We will pay you to build an arena.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_03: And and and there was, uh I don't know if you mentioned this or not, but there was going to be a Pittsburgh casino license when they when they legalized gambling.
• 1:15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there was one, there was so many in Philadelphia, one in the middle of the state somewhere.
• 1:15:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think one in the yeah one was designated for city of Pittsburgh.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_03: So so they had to build a casino in Pittsburgh.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_03: They had there was that was guaranteed.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_03: And to give it to a guy who didn't have the money to build it.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_03: Political cover, Tim.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was insane that they gave it to a guy that literally didn't have the money to do it.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_03: That was just that was so like I said, if you think that this is a conspiracy theory, if you think, oh, come on, Steve and Tim, you guys are just being ridiculous, then come up with a better reason why you would turn down a deal like that so that you could pay for it.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine somebody coming to your house, right?
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_03: Or your neighbor.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Your neighbor says, Boy, um you know, I I I I I I want to build uh an extension onto my house, and I will pay you, you know, ten thousand dollars to build an extension onto my house.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_03: I will pay you to do that, and you say, no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not doing that.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Instead, I will pay for the extension myself and and use all my family's money to do it.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_03: Why would you do that?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that's exactly what the what the government did in this case.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's ridiculous, it's a joke.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_03: People shouldn't forget that that happened.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_02: This changed my whole view of politics.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_02: It really did.
• 1:17:14
  SPEAKER_02: It really it really I really finally understood that politics isn't about money, it's about power.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is with with the power, you get the money, and that's if you ever think it's not about the power in the money, that and they go hand in hand, and sometimes money buys power, but for the most part, if you get if you have the power, you can get the money.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_03: And to be fair, and to be fair, we talked about you know the uh Clintons and and Rendell, and they were all part of the Democratic Party.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: But that that that's a principle that absolutely crosses party lines.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_03: That is not a partisan.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's just that's just the way it played out in this state.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure there's and I've said that I don't Yeah, I'm sure there's red states where it's the same thing.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_03: Same thing.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_02: I've been a registered Democrat, I've been a registered Republican, I've been a registered independent, and it's all the same.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Political parties are the greatest evil, this side of evil.
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_03: John Adams, John Adams said that way, way back.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_03: He's still right.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So, well, that's it for today.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I I I gotta go take my blood pressure medicine now.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I feel rather passionate about that issue.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell Tim?
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_03: I I couldn't.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us some more.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you want to hear more passionate quotes from John Adams or uh please thank you for uh please and thank you for tuning in over the you know years now.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_02: We've done so many episodes, and I great, I just privilege to talk about these topics and have so much fun with Tim here.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed as much as we do.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Check us out on Facebook.
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you guys uh keep us on our toes, keep leave a comment, um chat.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_02: God bless him to be out there.