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Female Firsts: Lilian Ngoyi · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephanie.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Never told you protection of I Heart Radio, and it
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: is time for another edition of Female First, which means
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: we are once again joined by the fantastic, fabulous, wonderful
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Eve's welcome to you. Thank you for the warm welcome.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Yes always, you know we love to have you, and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: you just gave us the most amazing like book show.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: It was great. It was a fantastic listeners. We got
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: like a little demonstration of all these books that he's
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: picked up. Um. But yeah, last time we had you on,
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  Speaker 1: you were talking about how you were going on a trip,
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: and we also just talked about how like condensing that
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: and small talk is stressful. So I'm going to ask
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  Speaker 1: you to do it again. Can you give some highlights
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: of your trip for the listeners? Well, I'm happy to,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I really am. It's it's fun recapping because I feel
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: like something new when you talk about something you did
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: to people that is a long story multiple times, I
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: feel like something new really does come out each time.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: But and also there's so much the process too, so
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  Speaker 1: it's like helping me process. So I appreciate it. I'm
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: not complaining about it. But yes I did. I did
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  Speaker 1: go on my trip. I was away for a month.
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  Speaker 1: I went to Zambia and South Africa and Botswana for
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: a day just to go to a park to see
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  Speaker 1: lots of lovely animals, and it was very eye opening.
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  Speaker 1: Everything was beautiful, all the people were wonderful, and I
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  Speaker 1: felt very welcome everywhere I went. I had lots of
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  Speaker 1: lovely like outdoor and nature experiences, which you all know
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  Speaker 1: that I love. But I also had lots of lovely
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  Speaker 1: different kinds of city experiences um in Zambia and in
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Cape Town as well, and I really enjoyed my time there.
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  Speaker 1: I got to hike, I got to eat so much food,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: which is one thing I'm readjusting to having to cook
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  Speaker 1: myself because I didn't do any of that. I was
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  Speaker 1: in a hotel a lot of the time, so but yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't do do any of that while I was
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: while I was there, so currently readjusting and readjusting to
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the weather because it is getting cold here in Atlanta.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: But yeah, everything. The quick recap is that everything was great.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: I was there for a month, had a great time.
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  Speaker 1: I want to go back, miss it. Of course, I
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: still am in those posts travel I'm still in the
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: post travel blues phase, and also seasonal post travel blues
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: rose really well into seasonal depression. You know what I mean?
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: What a combo want to punch seriously? Seriously, Um, I
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  Speaker 1: do have a good time. We were lucky enough to
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: hear something ales some perhaps perilous kayak times. But also, yes,
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  Speaker 1: you picked up a lot of books while you were there,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: and last time you were on Yes the show, you
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: said like, I think I'm going to get some inspiration
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: when I'm there, and correct me if I'm wrong, but
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  Speaker 1: I believe I did, and that I did. I said
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: that too, and I had to hold myself accountable while
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: I was there. That's I was perusing those books that
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  Speaker 1: I was so hard when I was there, and there
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  Speaker 1: were plenty of people that did come up, Like while
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  Speaker 1: I was looking through things there, I went to a
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  Speaker 1: few museums, went to a few bookstores, so everyone knows,
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  Speaker 1: and got a lot of information there and inspiration about people,
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  Speaker 1: Lots of people I would love to look more into. Um. Also,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: people who uh stories aren't necessarily as accessible to me
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  Speaker 1: because of language reasons, but also because they may not
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: have been have substantial biographies written on them. And may
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  Speaker 1: not have that much that is publicly available knowledge beyond
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: the family that may have survived them if they're not
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: living anymore. But I did, I did get less inspiration
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  Speaker 1: and brought that here today, which I'm excited about. There
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  Speaker 1: are loads and loads of people on the African continent
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  Speaker 1: and in Zambia and in South Africa specifically, which are
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  Speaker 1: the places that I went that are have deep histories
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  Speaker 1: in anti colonial resistance, anti apartheime movements, black consciousness movements,
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  Speaker 1: gender based movements, all of those things. So there is
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  Speaker 1: a wealth of information that I could delve into about
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  Speaker 1: those things that everybody can research. Plenty of figures who
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  Speaker 1: are well known and some that aren't so well known. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: and I know, Samantha and I are very very excited
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  Speaker 1: as you work through these books getting updates, seeing one
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: comes from that, hopefully on this segment. But in the meantime,
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  Speaker 1: who did you bring for us to discuss today, yarse?
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  Speaker 1: Today we are talking about Lilian Engloyye. So she was
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  Speaker 1: the first woman elected to the National Executive Committee of
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  Speaker 1: the African National Congress. Yes, um, and it once again
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  Speaker 1: is another another amazing story that has so much like
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: context and history and threats and all the stuff coming
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  Speaker 1: together and for this one person and not how much
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  Speaker 1: she did and how much she accomplished. So I'm excited
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  Speaker 1: to delve more into it. Shall we get started with
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  Speaker 1: the history? Yes, let's do. Let's do. So. She was
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  Speaker 1: born Lillian Masba Mataba and Pretoria in nineteen eleven and
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  Speaker 1: that's in the northeast part of the country, just northeast
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  Speaker 1: of Johannesburg. So I think that we have talked about
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: or maybe we have talked about a part time before
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: and the female first segments. UM. But for a quick
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: history context, there's a long history UM in South Africa
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  Speaker 1: of colonialism goes back into enslaved people coming from many
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: different parts of the world and landing in areas in
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  Speaker 1: South Africa. But UM, fast forwarding a lot in that history.
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  Speaker 1: At a certain point there was the Union of South Africa,
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  Speaker 1: which united British colonies in Southern Africa. That was formed
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  Speaker 1: in nineteen ten and that was a self governing dominion
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  Speaker 1: that was still within the British Empire. So under colonial
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  Speaker 1: rule there was slavery. There was like I said, there
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  Speaker 1: was racial discrimination as well in the aftermath of that,
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  Speaker 1: continuing against non white people because there was a mix
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: of many different cultures, as is what often happens through
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  Speaker 1: enslaved people arriving in a location, but that in it
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: was also included and encoded in legislation. So the what
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: would be considered apartheid era began in South Africa in
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: nineteen although there were precursors to that era of course,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: and still vestiges of it that continue there today. The
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  Speaker 1: National Party at that point enshrined racial segregation and white
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  Speaker 1: supremacy as federal policy, and apartheid touched all parts of life,
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  Speaker 1: so that was education, labor, housing, politics and voting, transportation
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  Speaker 1: and travel, access to public facilities, etcetera, etcetera. That system
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  Speaker 1: separated people into the whites, the Indians, the colors, and
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  Speaker 1: the blacks. So many acts over the years restricted non
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  Speaker 1: lites freedoms that led to things like censorship, disenfranchisement, violence,
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  Speaker 1: force removals, and poverty. And that also, of course, on
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  Speaker 1: the flip side, led to plenty of resistance anti apartheid movements,
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  Speaker 1: organizations and leaders and up resons thought black consciousness things
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  Speaker 1: like that. So that is the that is apartheide one
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  Speaker 1: on one light um just for a little context of
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  Speaker 1: the era and the environment that Goye was born into,
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  Speaker 1: and she had siblings, but she was the only girl.
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  Speaker 1: Her mother was domestic worker. Her father was a miner
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  Speaker 1: and a laborer and he died of lung disease. But
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  Speaker 1: she went to primary school at the Kilnerton Institution, which
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  Speaker 1: was a Black Methodist school. She did end up leaving
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: school early and began training as a nurse at the
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  Speaker 1: City deep Mine Hospital. During that time, she married a
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  Speaker 1: man who was a van driver named John Gerard and
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  Speaker 1: Goye and they had a daughter, and so she later
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  Speaker 1: became a seamstress and a domestic worker. But in seven,
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  Speaker 1: a few years after the couple married, John died in
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: a car accident and she ended up supporting her children
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  Speaker 1: and another child I believe was her niece and her mother.
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  Speaker 1: So she did get a job as a machinist working
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  Speaker 1: in a clothing factory and she worked there from nineteen
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  Speaker 1: forty five to nineteen fifty six. And it was at
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  Speaker 1: this point and through her work at the factory, we
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  Speaker 1: began to see her activism and her participation in the
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  Speaker 1: political sphere. She joined the Garment Workers Union of the
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  Speaker 1: Transfall and at the time Sally Sachs was the leader
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  Speaker 1: of the Garment Workers Union and he has his own
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  Speaker 1: history UM and complications and controversies UM. He was a
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  Speaker 1: labor and anti apartheid activists himself. He became secretary of
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  Speaker 1: the Garment Workers Union in nineteen eight, which itself had
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  Speaker 1: already a storied history that in early parts of it
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: too was limited to white people and two men, and
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  Speaker 1: it did change over tom but women workers in the
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  Speaker 1: industry did organize at this point through the union, which
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  Speaker 1: advocated for better working conditions for the clothing workers, and
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  Speaker 1: Sacks himself was arrested several times in the nineteen fifty
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  Speaker 1: two was banned from multiple organizations under the Suppression of
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Communism Act, which does come up a lot in this
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  Speaker 1: era under apartheid in terms of how different people who
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: were speaking up and who were resistant against apartheid were
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  Speaker 1: persecuted under that banner, but that was enacted by the
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  Speaker 1: Parliament of South Africa, so garment workers included Engloyee protested
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  Speaker 1: against his banning and her participation in the DW the
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: union helped radicalize her. Sex soon went into exile in England,
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  Speaker 1: where he did antipart time work still and Meanwhile, in
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  Speaker 1: South Africa there was introduced legislation that restricted the rights
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  Speaker 1: of black and so called colored people that were still
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  Speaker 1: being passed. The Natives Labor Act of nineteen fifty three,
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  Speaker 1: for instance, banned strikes by Africans. So this was the
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  Speaker 1: spirit and the energy that boy became a part of
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  Speaker 1: as a worker and as someone who was in the
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  Speaker 1: union and as someone who had her consciousness at the
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  Speaker 1: time she was involved in the Defiance campaign which was
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  Speaker 1: launched in nineteen fifty two. It was a huge, really
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  Speaker 1: involved across race, across time, in different places in South Africa,
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  Speaker 1: campaign of assistance against those apartheid laws, and the National
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Party government had come to power in which we spoke
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  Speaker 1: about a little bit earlier, and had turned up the
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  Speaker 1: dial on a lot of the discriminatory legislation. And as
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  Speaker 1: a part of that defiance campaign there were boycotts, rallies
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  Speaker 1: and other forms of civil disobedience. Um the a n
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: C had kind of turned more to strategies and tactics
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  Speaker 1: that involved things like civil disobedience at the time, and
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: of course this was a huge campaign with many thousands
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  Speaker 1: of people being involved. Many were arrested for doing things
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  Speaker 1: like entering segregated spaces that were just for white people,
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  Speaker 1: um doing things like violating curfew, for going places without passes,
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  Speaker 1: and for defying other apartheid regulations and going He joined
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  Speaker 1: the African National Congress during the defiance campaign, so that
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  Speaker 1: A and C was really focused on its position to
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: apartheid through that political action and civil disobedience. She took
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  Speaker 1: training for volunteers, and what seems to be remarked about
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  Speaker 1: her herself and her character is her oratory skills. So
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: she seemed like she had a really great ability to
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: give really passionate and compelling speeches that were able to
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  Speaker 1: get people riled up to the anti apartheid movement and
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  Speaker 1: to actually becoming involved in that movement themselves. So I
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  Speaker 1: think as everyone listening will probably realize by now that
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: there are some parallels between the kinds of actions and
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: organizing and resistance that's happening here and that happened in
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the United States. And there are a lot of scholars
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: who draw those lines between the figures and the movements
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: that are happening in both places, on the civil rights
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  Speaker 1: movement in the United States and the anti apartime movement
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  Speaker 1: here happening in South Africa. But yeah, so she became
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  Speaker 1: really active in the movement. She led protests, rallies and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: major cities as well as in rural towns across the country.
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  Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty two, she was arrested for being in
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: a whites only section of a post office and attempting
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: to send a telegram to the Prime Minister. But eventually
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  Speaker 1: she was elected as president of the a n C
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  Speaker 1: Women's League and she attended a conference that was held
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: by the Women's International Democratic Federation. She traveled to Europe,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: to Russia and to China as a delegate of the
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Federation of South African Women, which she joined and was
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  Speaker 1: elected as its president in nineteen fifty six. And it
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: was also that year that she got her first and
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: became the first woman elected to the National Executive Committee
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  Speaker 1: of the African National Congress. So as we do see
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of times in the stories of these women
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: that we talk about on female First about how they
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: travel overseas and seem to be truly invigorated by obviously
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: have to put in a lot of work to get
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: to the point where they are traveling internationally, and our
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: delegates of their causes, but also are clearly invigorated by
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: what they see overseas, whether that's like okay. They see
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the different ways that women are being treated, They see
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: the different consciousnesses of the countries that they're going to
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: and how active people are involved in resistance movements. They
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: see the kind of tactics and strategies that people are
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: using overseas. And then they come back to the place
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: that they left and see what's happening there and have
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: a certain perspective on it now after they've done their
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: travels um and been to these conferences and and and
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: spoken with different people and met different people. And so
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: she comes back to South Africa and continues to do
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: her work, continues to put in work. On August ninth,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: ninety six, big touch point or flashpoint in her history
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: in the resistance movement, she along with other women like
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Helen Joseph, Sophie Williams and Raheema Musa, led a woman's
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Past march to the Union Buildings in Pretoria, and actually
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: August nine, to this day in South Africa is celebrated
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: as National Women's Day. So the government was planning to
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: extend pass laws to African women. Black men were already
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: required to carry passes and these pass laws require African
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: men to carry documents validating their identity and permissions. In
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: the way that that looked did morph over tome to
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: where there were all these documents and there was a
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: past book, So exactly how that panned out did change.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, they were required
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: to carry documents that validated their identity where they were
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: allowed to be. So this really infantilizing, eternalistic, patriarchal method
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  Speaker 1: of control over where people could be and even who
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: they were. You know, they were designed to control their
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: movement and to reinforce segregation. Many people were arrested for
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: violating past laws out of necessity. I mean, of course
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: this having to have pass laws disrupted their lives in
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: many ways, including where they could work, how they could work,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: the time that they could spend, or how they were
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: able to spend time with their family. But early attempts
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: to make women carry pass books resulted in protests. Women
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: were like, nah, we're good, we're not We're not here
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: for having pass laws. So they were able to through
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: their actions, avoid having to be subject to these laws
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: for a while, but it was clear that the government
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: planned on still extending past laws to them still in
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, so like they put in legislation and
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: we do plan on extending these past laws. That's how
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: clear it was to women. So in the nineteen protests
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: they were estimated to be around twenty th women. They
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: carried a bunch of petitions to and that was across racist.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: So they carried a bunch of petitions to present to
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the government and going knocked on the Prime Minister's door
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: to give them to him. And this wasn't This was
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: a huge demonstration and an important one. But there were
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: also other anti past law demonstrations throughout the country and
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: rural places and in other cities, but they were they
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: were eventually subjected to pass laws. This n march on
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: August nine did do a lot too of lift women
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: like Goy who were participating in it and brought a
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: lot of visibility to the issue. So in December of
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: n s which is just months after the march, and
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Going and other anti apart side activists were put on
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: trial for treason. The least arrested around one dred and
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: fifty six people who were charged with high treason, and
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: that included people from the A and C. The African
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: National Congress, Indian Congress, the Congress of Democrats, the Congress
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: of Trade Unions, and the Colored People's Organization. They were
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: accused of being active in the liberation movement and creating
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: a freedom Charter with the goal of establishing a communist state,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: among other accusations. So as you would probably imagine, you know,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: this lasted a while. The treason child lasted until nineteen
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: sixty one and Ngali was acquitted, But in nineteen sixty
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: she was arrested again under the state of emergency that
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: was declared after the Sharpville massacre, which was a massacre
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: where police killed people who were protesting past laws. And
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: she spent five months in prison, then some of that
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: time which she was in solitary confinement, and in the
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: next decades she was subject to more arrests and two
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: more bands. So you see in her story that chokehold,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: like that tight grasp that was placed on her by
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: authorities in these last time of her life, after she
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: had this snowball of momentum up to her strong role
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: in the resistance movement, to the point where people like
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela were acknowledging her in public spaces and public speeches,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: and of course there were plenty of people who also
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: were a part of the movement and who read and
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: who attended her speeches, who knew the role that she
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: was playing and really speaking up against and taking action
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: against the aparthei legislation and state. So the story is
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: arrest after arrest, um kind of in ban at that point.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: In October of nineteen sixty two, she was issued banning
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: orders that confined her to her home in Orlando Township.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Under the order, she couldn't attend public gatherings or meet
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: with more than one person at a time, and that
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: included other band people. She couldn't converse with them. That
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: band lasted five years, but then was renewed for another
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: five years in nineteen sixty seven, and there was a
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: brief period when she did travel after that, but that
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: was rolled back pretty quickly because she was still on
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: her soapbox, as she rightfully was, and of course she
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: continued to do when she had that brief period of freedom,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: but the band was reimposed in nineteen seventy five, and
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: that rolled into her death. Unfortunately, she did die on
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: March thirteenthight that which was not long before her five
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: year band was about to expire. So if you think
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: about we know that bay ends and confining people to
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: spaces is one power that the state uses in order
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: to keep people from being active in these resistant movements.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: Of course, the band restricted her ability to work and
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to make money, though she did try to make a
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: living sewing. Of course, that was difficult for her. Apparently,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: she says that the police who were there would try
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: to or would intimidate customers when they would come by.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: So there were some donations that were coming through, but
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: there were she wasn't the most well supported person. It
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: also restricted her ability to travel, of course, to participate
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: in political activities, and generally to live life freely. And
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the access that other people had to her her speeches,
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to her work, to her writing, to the thoughts and
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: ideas that she shared was also limited. So her life
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: was confined to this spot. But also other people were
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: confined because they were no longer able to access the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: resources that she said has so freely given in the
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: years leading up to that, So that clearly severely impacted
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: her ability to do the work, um in turn impacting
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: the movement itself. So that is the women Enging story
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: part of the larger story. But there were a lot
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: of women who were clearly involved in the movement at
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: the time, and she did have a funeral um that
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: was well attended, but I didn't read there was a
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: remark by someone who was speaking at the funeral that
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: like this should be even far more well attended if
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: you all knew the work that Enge was trying to do.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: That she was trying to get us or the people
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: off of their seats and into action and really standing
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: up for what they believe in at whatever cost may
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: have been necessary. That costs, including um the meaning out
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: of violence against them and potentially even death. So she
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: was well respected and acknowledged in her lifetime, so as
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: unfortunately stories often go, could be more well acknowledged today,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: and did have a memorial and has had a couple
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: of things named after her, so she has been acknowledged
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: in some ways. But UM, I'm grateful to be able
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to share her story today in this way because of course,
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: as as we talked about all the time, it's always
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: helpful to continue to uplift stories that may be less
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: well known by by a lot of people. Well, I'll
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: say I growing up in small town La j Georgia,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: small town Georgia, had never even heard of the apartheid
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: until I started college, and even then I just pretended
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I knew because everybody knew was a big like there's
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: so many of my friends that knew, and I was
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: just like, yeah, what, Yes, ilually know what's going on,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: and went through and had to study for myself what
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: this was and what the movement was and and how
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: actually during arct to mind time in college, it was
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: still a pretty big conversation and in the injustices that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: had happened during that time and the people who are affected,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: like the conversation, the fact that it is. It took
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: me that long to understand the depth and so still
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: learning trying to learn about the people in this movement
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and the and the warriors and the fighters and the
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: people who were leaders. It's still amazing that I'm like, yeah,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I had no idea this happened. I didn't know this conversation.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Like I know the broad scope and some specific stories
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: that's about it, but in the bigger scheme and pictures like,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: oh my god, we have missed out on so much
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: conversation and the truth in the history and the amazing
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: people who really were the backbone of this movement, including
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: the fact, like the understanding of trying to figure out
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: what banning was, Like, I know the concept of banning,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: but this was almost like torture, the stalking, the constant harassment,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: making sure that she wasn't able to make money, making
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: sure that she wasn't able to see people. That level
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: of being harassed. This is this, Like, oh my god, again,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: this is torture. I feel like it should be a
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: little to that this is a crime. This is a
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: crime against humanity. Let's have a conversation about why this
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: is so important, about the fact that they stripped her
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: of her livelihood consistently, Like it wasn't just it's almost over.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: We're going to do a new thing. Now, let's just
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: let's find another way to make sure you're banned, because
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: it's working, because we're killing your spirit essentially. Obviously, she
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I'm glad her stories come out, and I'm glad we
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: get to see Thank you so much for bringing these
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: stories and these conversations in this historical context, because yeah,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: it's so important that we're having a moment to acknowledge
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Holy this has been in the dark too long. Yeah,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and I hate that it's such an inspiring story and
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: she did so much, um, and she fought so much
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and just resisted so much. And then I hate that
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: access to what she did was limited and as you said,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: especially if she's a good orator like that was lost
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: in a way or people weren't able to get that
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: information um, which is also part of yeah, this sort
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: of trying to minimize and make sure that like this
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: resistance doesn't go anywhere, but that that I just hate that.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: So I'm I'm very glad that, yes, we're sharing the
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: story that you brought it to us, but it is
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: one of those things where I'm like, exactly, yeah, and
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: it and it that hit hard the way you said
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: that Samantha about it killing her spirit, because I think
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: we saw how much spirit she had through you know,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: throughout her life um, and the work this who put
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: into it, um, and how this was intentional harm that
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: the state was committing against her, and how just doing
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: that to her, the killing her spirit as you put it, Samantha,
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: affected so many other people and even though they we
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: see how how Lillian Engoie in her quotes, really was
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: looking forward to a point where things changed and Aparthei
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: no longer had its hold on the country. She wasn't
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: able to see that transformation. That didn't occur until the
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: nineties by the time that she had died. So it
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: is very I hate to end on I think I'm
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: being so hesitant because I hate to end on a
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: point where, like you know, it is very it's very
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: real Samantha, that it is killing her spirit. But a
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: part a part of way, it really pays me to
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: say that because I don't want to not acknowledge the
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: fact that she lives such a full and beautiful life
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: in so many ways. You know, have family that she
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: was able to connect with, and they extended family that
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that she created through the movement work that
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: she did. I do hope that they do here that
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: we are celebrating the amazing work that she did um
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: and continue to do and obviously kept fighting when she could.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: That's that's the biggest part to that is that when
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: she had that small break of not being banned, He's like,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: let's keep going. I mean, that is a fighter in itself,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: and in that conversation, because I know so many it
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: would just have backed down, but she didn't. She kept pushing,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: She kept trying, but she was also trying to protect
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: her family and herself and during these times, during a
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: time where it was really really dangerous for her in them.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So it is it's definitely that level, I guess in
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that moment of like day of the government sucks in
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: a story. Alright, I'm done getting it, I'm moving on
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: a list somewhere started it's creative. Sorry to tell you,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go hide now. Oh well, I did like that.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about it, but I did like
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: that you included eaves that a lot of these female
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: firsts to include travel and kind of changing your perspective
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: through travel. So that's, you know, some somewhat of a
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: more upbeat note to end on because that, I mean,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: you're right, it's true, and I think that's very since
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you just got back on this trip. That's one of
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: my favorite things about travel, too, is when you come
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: back and you're like, oh, I have all these things
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: to think about and reevaluate all of that stuff. So
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you pointed that out. I hadn't really picked
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: up on that, but you're right, you yeah, I just
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. This is one of those moments. So for
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: everybody listening. I was talking to Samanthan Annie before they
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: started about how about how I get too deep when
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: I'm telling people about somewhere I've been to, like, I
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: immediately jump into the deep side of the conversations and
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: sometimes try to have to skip over the surface level stuff.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: And that might be a bit much for some people
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: who aren't expecting that and who don't want that. UM.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: So I was trying to temper myself with my response
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to that, Annie, but it did. It did made me
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: think of somebody I was just talking to who asked
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: me like, how's the Eaves today? Who was here now
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: different than the Eaves who left? And UM was at
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: the airport the day you left. And I was like, uh,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I know, and you know that's what I was like,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: I have one million things to say about that, but
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: also I have no idea how to answer that question.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: So that's what, um, what you just said just now,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Annie made me think of. And I was like, let me,
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: let me roll it back on that a little bit.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: But it's a really good point to think about, UM
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: when we're thinking about these female first like the even
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: if it's not travel, the moments that change the people
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: who were talking about in the moments that change us, Like,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: what are some of the things that really shake us
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: or invigorate us or make us think differently about something.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't have to be a really big moment.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be traveling halfway across the world either.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: It can be something as simple as a conversation that
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: you have with somebody at a bar. So, yeah, I
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: really I really liked that, Annie. Yeah. Yeah, And I
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: think that's a good follow up point as well. And
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: now I do want to hear the answer later of
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: that question that they asked you, so, but we'll we'll
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: put a pin in that, okay, Yes, and thanks once
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: again for coming on. We know you're a little still
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: recovering from your travel, so we really are happy to
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: be here as always, Yes, us and we love having you.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Can you tell the good listeners where they can find you. Yes,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: you can find me online on the internets, on Instagram
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: at not Apologizing and on Twitter at Eve's Jeff Coach.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: And I realized that I don't ever spell that and
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: that people may not know how to spell it. So
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: that's why V E S J E F F C
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: O A T. That's how you spell my name, UM,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: and you can also find me Jeff dot com, so
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: you can go to my website to find all those
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: things if you forget or have no idea how to
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: spell my name after I just spelled it and you
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: don't want to rewind the fifteen seconds um. And also
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: on plenty of episodes of sminth te on doing other
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: segments of Female First about a bunch of different women
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: in history who change things, who lived phenomenal lives, and
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: who had stories that I I think are worthy of
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: sharing and that we all have things to learn from. Yes,
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: I agree, agree, So listeners go check out all of
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: those things you just listed. You can do the fifteen back.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: It's easy if you need to, and if you would
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: like to contact us, you can our email Stuff Idea
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: mom stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can find
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom sub podcast or on Instagram
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: and stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always start
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: super producer Christie Off, thank you and thanks to you
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: for listening. Stuff Diver Told the production by Heart Radio
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: from podcast in my Heart Radio. You can check out
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.