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Impact of trauma, self-awareness in leadership and the art of being authentic with Mark Meyer · Authentic Living

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  1.
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  It's Roxanne Durgesh with Authentic Limmon Roxanne.
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  Thanks for tuning in again today.
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  Today, I have a a guest all the way from Denmark.
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  I can actually say this now.
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  Mark Meyer, and Mark's got a pretty interesting background.
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  He says psychotherapist like myself, which is fascinating, and he also speaks about
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  authenticity.
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  So I thought Mark and I are gonna have, some today.
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  So, Mark, welcome, welcome to the podcast.
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  Thank you, and thank you for having me.
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  So Mark does a lot of work with corporations and does work on conflict resolution and
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  authenticity management.
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  He is a business coach.
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  He's a master practitioner in l l NLP, which is New Yorkistic pro programming, and he's the
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  author of the best selling book, the art of being authentic.
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  So, Mark, did you always know you wanted to be a psychotherapist?
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  No.
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  Not at all.
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  For me, it was my journey in life was quite opposite to begin with.
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  I I think that one was a a young man.
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  I had this urge to prove myself.
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  I wanted to prove to the world that I was good enough.
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  And so I actually started out by doing an MBA and going the corporate way, and I worked
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  really hard to make it there.
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  And I did pretty well for myself, I think.
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  I was in my early thirties, and I was living in Germany heading up 3 different offices in 3
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  different countries.
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  And I guess I you could say I was living up to whatever standards of success that that I had
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  defined for myself.
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  And that there was some happiness missing.
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  There was something missing.
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  And at the time, I didn't know what it was.
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  I thought I need more.
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  That's why I'm not happy anymore.
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  So I actually left that job.
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  I found some investors, and I started a tech company.
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  I figured once ought to have I'll have a tech company and be a great success.
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  And and and then I'll be happy.
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  And the start of that, and it went really well.
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  And we won business awards and tech Awards, and still I had that sense of not being truly
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  happy.
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  So my my thing then was maybe I should start another company.
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  So I started one more company.
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  And I did that for several years until I sort of realized maybe I need to try something
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  different.
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  And I've been training as a coach.
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  I've done several coach training programs.
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  Both in order for myself because I needed to perform because I was in this corporate
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  entrepreneur world, but I also needed the the staff around me to perform.
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  And then I think I thought, okay.
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  I need something more again.
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  And then I thought, okay.
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  Maybe I should train as a psychotherapist, which was a lengthy education But I did it, and
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  I think I did it without really thinking about it.
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  And I showed up for I remember I showed up for the 1st class, and I hadn't really read the
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  papers well.
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  I was reading them over, and they said, you have to go through minimum 40 hours of therapy
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  yourself.
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  And I and I looked at it.
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  I was like, 40:40 hours of therapy.
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  What am I gonna talk with a therapist about?
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  But that was really a life changing moment because during those hours of therapy, I
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  realized that I've been chasing goals outside of myself for so long, just hoping that some
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  sort of emotional redemption would come.
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  And that's when I realized that I needed to change course.
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  So I come from a very different background, and I think that it was much later in life that I
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  realized that psychotherapy was the path that I should travel.
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  So you're in the Danish culture, how is therapy or psychotherapy viewed?
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  Like you said, you you got brought up in a different kind of context.
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  Was it openness to around difficulties, or was it kind of closed off?
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  Could you expand on that a bit?
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  Yeah.
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  So what I mean is, like, Circular, I grew up in Churna and Tobago.
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  So, like, it's interesting.
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  Our parallels are flipped in a way.
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  So I grew up and I thought I wanted to become a psychotherapist because I grew up in a business
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  family.
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  And I'd seen some uncertainty.
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  And when I wanted, you would go to school and try to talk to get some support.
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  There was none.
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  Like, my old girl's school, so I thought there must be somebody that can do this a little bit
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  better.
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  I thought when I was, like, twelve, thirteen years old.
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  And then as I got older, I thought, I wonder if I could do this for a living, so but there was
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  not the openness to discuss things that were of a personal nature.
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  Yeah.
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  I don't know if it's cultural thing because I think that here in Scandinavia and and all the
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  European countries where people are pretty open minded.
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  I think really what kept me was just a lack of self ref reflection, a lack of self awareness.
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  And sometimes in life, when we lack self awareness, we can end up chasing goals that
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  when we reach them, they don't provide the emotional outcome that we expect.
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  So I think that it was just for me a matter of getting to know myself before I really could
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  make that shift.
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  Yeah.
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  Because you are clearly achieving, but young, But you were, like you said, it became elusive
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  that it became another notch on the belt with every accomplishment, but you weren't feeling
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  the emotional happiness that you potentially assumed you would achieve.
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  An MBA Incorporated at a quite young age.
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  Like you said, you went off and did the other startup.
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  But something was missing.
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  So that's where your exploration started or introspection, I would say started, and then
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  you start to pursue a little bit more of the the realm of psychotherapy for yourself.
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  Yeah.
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  That's true.
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  And I think I actually write about that in the introduction of my book.
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  I think for me, sometimes when we try to avoid things in life, we may have some trauma in our
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  life.
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  Mhmm.
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  And that can send us off in a in a certain direction.
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  I had a good upbringing but I went to school with a teacher that was not so fond of me.
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  And she would make me feel very bad about myself, and she would let me know.
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  And I think that was kind of what set the foundation for this whole gold driven life that
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  I was trying to prove something to my I was trying to prove to the world, but, ultimately,
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  myself, that I was nothing like my teacher made me feel back then when I was in school, So I
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  think that for me, my path in life, the the first part of my life was largely dictated by
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  my trauma, so it is dictated by avoidance behavior.
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  Yeah.
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  So you just achieved in order to distract yourself and and went from thing to to feel
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  better about that deep down voice somewhere in your within you that said maybe that you
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  weren't good enough or you weren't smart enough or whatever some of those implicit messages
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  came from that significance.
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  And I think also when we when you get caught up in this in this gold rim in life, it can almost
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  become sort of an addiction.
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  Right?
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  I mean, our brains are are wired so that when we're pursuing a goal, it'll release some
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  dopamine to sort of keep us motivated.
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  Mhmm.
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  And that feeling can can sort of lures him to believe that, okay, I'm on the right right
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  path.
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  I'm being re rewarded and then you continue and continue.
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  But the problem is once you reach the goal, all the dopamine stops and you're left with this
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  empty feeling, if there's no real purpose behind your goals or if you're not aware of
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  that purpose.
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  If I had been when I became aware that my purpose for Most of the goals I was achieving
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  was actually to prove to the world that I was good enough.
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  Had I known that from the beginning, I would probably not have done as I did because it is,
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  of course, futile.
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  Oh, when you speak to that, right, at which I would say, Mark, that most of us kind of on our
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  path, the developmental path, right?
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  You you find something that makes you feel good.
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  Right?
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  So I I think I'm a lot of like you.
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  I academics and achievement became something that I learned quite young, right?
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  But if you think about Western society or corporate culture, is it not the same paradigm
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  that we're feeding as as people achieve goals?
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  We're we're not we're talking about authentic leadership.
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  You and I talk about it and coach people about it, but sometimes the overall vision of what is
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  the what is the vision of the company.
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  Sometimes that's diametrically opposed to potentially me being authentic at work.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  I I I think you're absolutely right.
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  And I think, I mean, you're right.
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  The the the corporate culture and the Western culture as it is and as it has been favors goal
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  setting.
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  We like to award achievements, and we appreciate achievements and and setting goals.
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  Is something that we we almost feel we feel obligated.
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  We need to set goals and we need to set more goals.
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  We need to achieve more.
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  And we also see it.
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  I mean, when we scroll through our social media, right, how much of, as you're going
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  through your your reels, how how many reels do you see with some business coach telling you
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  the they used to make $25100, but then they found the system.
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  And now they're making 25,000,000, but they're gonna tell you how to do it.
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  And whatever negative beliefs you hold about yourself, they're they're kind of prone to grab
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  onto that, right, because we get a little oh, that's why I can't make stuff work.
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  I I have to do it.
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  I'm just not doing things.
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  Right?
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  So we don't really get a lot of help either.
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  Right?
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  Don't get a lot of help from from society in order to sort of pursue our own authenticity,
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  rather we get pushed in so we just have to have a bigger, bigger goals or a a better 5 year
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  plan.
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  And really we're just pushing our problems ahead of us.
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  It's it's interesting because when I coach and sometimes, like, you know, coach like
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  physicians or people in that have gone to school for extended periods of time, and
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  they'll encodings say, I'm not happy.
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  I go, okay.
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  There's been 7 to 10 years of schooling here.
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  Right?
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  And and then they're at that point where they're saying nothing.
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  Nothing brings me joy.
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  Nothing brings me happiness.
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  I have the accolades.
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  I have the the trophies.
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  I have the awards.
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  I belong to the right associations, but there's a part of me that doesn't feel like I'm meeting
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  on purpose.
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  And that's oftentimes when I'm starting to coach people around just stepping into it.
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  Because when you're on that trajectory and it's making sense because you get you get in the
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  every little new bell and whistle, you're you're what stops you, probably not much until
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  you hit that dead end.
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  And a lot of times with some of these individuals, I'm curious to hear about the
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  people that you're coached to, then they're saying I feel I've kind of lost sight of, or
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  maybe you didn't connect to who I was as I made these choices in life.
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  Exactly.
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  I compare it sometimes a little bit to to going on a trip and an airplane.
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  And let's say, okay, let's say that your authentic journey is a a metaphorical airplane
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  ride from from New York to Rome.
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  That's about the same latitude, I think.
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  And what happens in life, right, is we need to make small cost corrections.
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  Because we experience that may be that, okay.
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  When we're acting, like, we truly wanna act, then maybe people don't really greet us the way
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  we want it they don't accommodate us the way we want.
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  So should we feel okay?
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  You know what?
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  I need to change ever so slightly just to get accepted.
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  Mhmm.
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  Which is valid because we're social creatures and and and we want to fit in.
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  Right?
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  And we just change a little bit.
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  Half a percentage or half a degree maybe we do that a couple of times in our lives or maybe
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  multiple times.
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  If you compare that to a plane ride, if you half an hour into a flight, change your course
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  by half a degree.
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  What happens when you're 8 hours into the flight?
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  You're gonna be significantly off course.
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  Right?
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  Yes.
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  And that's what happens to most people.
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  Then they start looking out the window, and they're looking for Rome and the small piazzas,
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  and they're seeing Greenland and icebergs and a different scenario from what they expected.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  And it
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  it can sneak up on you because you shouldn't but I'm being myself.
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  I'm 99% myself.
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  Yes, those small cost corrections, if you don't if you don't shift back, if you don't cost
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  correct back over time, they're gonna send you on a path you you didn't expect.
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  Sure.
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  And I think sometimes whether it's developmental chronologically, but I think if
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  my son is twenty two years old, and he's on a trajectory.
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  And I'm like, I I keep saying to him now, of course, I'm mom, right, in my fifties.
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  He's not gonna he goes, mom, I haven't figured out.
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  Of course, you do.
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  Right?
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  Cause I'm saying he's a high achiever.
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  He's he's done his undergrad.
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  He's doing his MBA.
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  Like, you, Mark, and he's like, this.
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  And I'm like, where do you wanna land?
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  And he goes, what do you mean?
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  What do I wanna land, mom?
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  I wanna land and get a good but he's doing all the same things we're talking about.
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  And it's it's how do you connect early is about slowing down and in our twenties, if anything,
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  if that he's comparing to his peers, let's say, nobody's slowing down in their twenties.
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  They're on high alert fastly kind of thing.
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  So it's so let's talk a little bit about the people or the companies that you work with.
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  Right?
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  So what in what capacity might you be coming in?
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  Are you coming in through the kind of the lens of a coach?
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  Are you coming in through trainings?
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  Are you kinda coming in from being sometimes putting out fires.
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  That's oftentimes when I get called in.
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  We have some issues.
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  We're having some conflict.
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  We've got some issues between the senior team and the frontline, those types of things to
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  kind of address some conflict and what context might you be called in to do your authentic
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  work?
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  I think that it's the same as you.
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  Sometimes it's through coaching, but often it's also leaders that that hone you up and say,
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  okay.
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  Listen.
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  We have a problem.
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  We're we're not working together like we should.
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  Maybe, actually, we have a lot of conflict.
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  And then sometimes, and I think I see that more and more.
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  I actually see some companies being proactive about it.
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  Saying, okay, listen.
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  We have a good leadership group, and we wanna move forward, but we think that talking about
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  authentic leadership and talking about authenticity, is important for us in order to
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  take it to the next level so that the different angles to it when we talk about companies,
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  there's also a company's made up of a lot of different individuals from a lot of different
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  departments, and there are also different views on it.
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  Right?
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  For sure.
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  And really trying to align people.
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  Like, and like I said, if you have a company and they're calling you in to work on
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  authenticity, and people have, let's say, from IT to law, the legal department to R And D,
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  they're gonna bring, obviously, there's different subsets for the particular part of
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  the business, but then ultimately having people understand how to interface so that they can
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  bring forth their gifts, but also to be able to lift up others too, right?
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  Like, it's I say it's like that transparency lens, but what's important to one part of the
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  One skill of the business may not be viewed as equally as important.
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  And it's sometimes about that basic fundamental about in relationship, which is respect and
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  sometimes some companies, like business development in some companies.
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  Right?
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  Miss those are the golden children of when they get put ahead because they're the ones going up
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  and starting the fires.
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  And the other people that are supporting the business sometimes gets overlooked maybe don't
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  feel as valuable because of the way sometimes maybe the company might address growth and
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  those types of things.
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  So it's do you find that sometimes your role is almost like a connector to help them understand
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  their different perspectives and their strengths and what they bring to the tape
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  Yeah.
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  Definitely.
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  And and I think also you you mentioned something here about authenticity that most
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  people don't really think about as the first thing, which is that being authentic is not
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  only about being who I am, it's also allowing other people to be who they are.
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  So there's 2 sides to the to the coin here of authenticity.
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  And that's especially important also in companies where people do have different roles,
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  different responsibilities, different job descriptions.
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  Because if we think that authenticity is only about me, then it becomes ego driven, and then
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  and it becomes destructive.
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  So we have to acknowledge that authenticity is equally about me being me as well as this about
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  others, allowing others to be who they are.
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  Absolutely.
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  And if I talk about that in my book, right, like, so I always say that the we start with
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  awareness when I'm working with leadership teams with the leader so that he or she can
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  really be aware of their space.
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  I almost it's like that you're at that using your your analogy of the plane at 30,000 feet,
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  and you have your the top and you're you're really meant to get the aerial shot up, but
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  that starts with you.
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  So how is it that you take care of yourself when you're stressed?
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  How How do you come across and do you know how you're coming across and how do you recognize
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  yourself?
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  How do you communicate and how do you connect?
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  Right?
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  So if you are not aware, like, use the word introspection for kind of your path, which I
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  think it's something that we all need to do often to be connected to yourselves, but as the
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  leader, you need to kind of have almost like, I call I do an assessment, which I call the AQL,
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  which is that space within the leader allows the leader to look at themselves.
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  And then from that space, they're able to look outward to say, what frame am I putting out
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  there?
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  When I'm at my best, what am I good at, and what am I not so good at?
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  But not just from their frame, but their teams also do the same for them, Mark.
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  When how are they viewing you?
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  So I think they had the most phenomenal communicator And then I give myself, say, a 10
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  out of 10, and then my team's saying I'm, like, a 4.
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  And I'm like, hold up.
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  That's not making sense.
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  That's not my number because you really have to look at not just how you perceive it because,
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  of course, we all all have blind spots.
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  But how is it that other people are perceiving you to be able to be able to connect with you?
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  And what is it?
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  Maybe I'm thinking I'm meeting your need if you're in my team, Mark, but in fact, I'm doing
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  it sometimes, but the other times, maybe 70 said that the times I'm off the mark.
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  So to be for them to be able to grow that way.
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  So let's talk a little bit about about your book.
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  And the art the art of being, like, I'm having trouble with that word art today.
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  The art of being authentic.
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  So tell me tell me what's what the book is about and kind of how you use that in your work
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  with with companies.
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  I think I use it in my work both with companies and and when I work with private people, as
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  well.
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  I I think that authenticity is lack of authenticity can lead us to places where we
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  don't wanna be as individuals and as organizations.
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  And the reason I call it the art of being authentic is because Sometimes when we talk
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  about authenticity, we can look at the word, auto and handsets is is the self and the and
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  the doer or or or or being.
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  So So we can say, okay, it's just be yourself.
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  But the problem with, hey, it's just be yourself is it doesn't really resonate with us,
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  right, because it it there's this just that makes it sound very easy.
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  Right?
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  And sometimes when people say, and I'm I'm and you're a you're you're a parent.
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  Right?
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  And when the kids hear, just be yourself, Maybe it it doesn't really resonate with them, right,
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  because it sounds like they should maybe they perceive it like they should just go on
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  autopilot and and not really make an effort.
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  Right?
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  Instead of hearing it as being honest about your wants and your needs and being who you
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  truly are.
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  So I don't think that it I think authentic is a better word, and I think that it is a little
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  bit of an art because we need to understand ourselves, and that's what the book talks about
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  a lot, is it's talks a lot about we need to understand ourselves in order to know what's
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  authentic for us.
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  And then it goes on to talk a lot about our self esteem.
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  Because we're not gonna being authentic comes with a cost.
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  If it didn't come with a cost, we would all be authentic.
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  But it comes with a cost that we're not gonna fit in that people are gonna judge us.
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  And what happens when people judge us, we start judging ourselves.
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  Right?
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  You know, we're gonna be judging ourselves and others are gonna be judging us.
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  And that that's a bit scary for us.
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  So, you know, we need self esteem.
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  We need to have the self esteem so that we can say, okay, I'm worth this.
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  I can be authentic.
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  This is I have enough value to to take that leap.
• 20:36
  So the book talks a lot about our self esteem, and then it talks a lot about the decisions we
• 20:40
  make in daily life.
• 20:41
  Because we make a lot of decisions that either adds to our authenticity or takes away from our
• 20:47
  authenticity, and it has a lot to do with the intention behind our actions.
• 20:52
  So
• 20:53
  yeah.
• 20:53
  And of course, when you're in alignments with NNAB authentically connected, you're you're
• 20:58
  good to use that internal compass that to make decisions that fall in line.
• 21:03
  And when I was in corporate, I would see leaders where you didn't know what their next
• 21:09
  decisions is was gonna be based like.
• 21:12
  And the best leaders that I've ever seen, whether in my work or in my co corporate
• 21:16
  career, were the ones that Regardless of I didn't like their decision.
• 21:21
  When I sat back, Mark and looked at the overall decision, then I go, uh-huh.
• 21:28
  I see where he or she was coming from.
• 21:30
  I don't like where where where the outcome is, but I can respect it because it's It was the
• 21:35
  same sets of paradigms based on who they were and what that front would facing leader was
• 21:43
  versus the other ones that kinda got pulled and prodded based on what was happening and they
• 21:48
  were trying to quote, unquote, please others, to get the accolades and that those are the
• 21:53
  ones that you're like, wow.
• 21:55
  You're like a little bit of a loose cannon because you're like, Sometimes you're like, oh
• 21:59
  my goodness.
• 22:00
  They're over here, and then they're over there.
• 22:02
  And that's when you could see the uncertainty kind of leading to people would have to kind of
• 22:08
  side eye them because they were like, oh, I trust you now.
• 22:10
  Right?
• 22:10
  And that could be the kind of the breakdown.
• 22:12
  Like, you talked about that inauthentist inauthentic steps that kinda is that slippery
• 22:18
  slope where then people are kinda talking about each other or getting a bit more toxic.
• 22:24
  Yeah.
• 22:24
  And I think what you're saying here really is also a lot about what's the intention of other
• 22:28
  people because in intention, my own intention, and something that's important when it comes to
• 22:34
  being authentic.
• 22:34
  I have to my intention behind my actions has to be an honest and aligned intention, but we also
• 22:41
  do that when we evaluate other people.
• 22:43
  So if I hear you talk about corporate social responsibility, and I hear you have you
• 22:50
  generally want to make a difference through your company for the people, then I deem it
• 22:54
  authentic.
• 22:55
  But as soon as I find out that you didn't really mean that, you are only doing this for
• 23:00
  some other reason to gain favor with someone or for something else, then I will immediately
• 23:05
  deem it as inauthentic.
• 23:07
  Right?
• 23:07
  Because the intention behind our actions is one of the things that we use to evaluate others on
• 23:14
  whether or not they were authentic.
• 23:16
  And it's also something that we should evaluate ourselves on.
• 23:20
  Absolutely.
• 23:20
  Because you're you never know when you're gonna be people are gonna be watching.
• 23:24
  Right?
• 23:24
  It can be something really small, and you did this big thing.
• 23:27
  And then your people say I saw that Roxanne did yz, which could be insignificant.
• 23:33
  You do those little things enough that's coming from a a malintended place.
• 23:38
  That eventually catches up with you.
• 23:39
  And I all I always say with leaders, they only have is their their name, right, and their
• 23:45
  integrity and leadership, and it doesn't take much sometimes for you to work across purposes
• 23:50
  to your team where you're like, oh, I'm just doing this one thing one time, and then the
• 23:54
  team finds out.
• 23:56
  And then it it spreads like wide wildfire.
• 23:59
  And that's when vulnerability becomes important for the leader if they let's say if they're
• 24:03
  screwed up, which they're they're fallible like all of us.
• 24:07
  And if they don't go forward and share that they they made a bad decision or they had a
• 24:12
  brain freeze or whatever, that really sometimes takes away from lots of things that they may
• 24:17
  have built within that team for years years years.
• 24:19
  I think you're absolutely right about that.
• 24:21
  Vulnerability is an important trade of being authentic and embracing criticism, but it's
• 24:26
  also when we talk about this, to go back to attention when we talk about it.
• 24:30
  This is also something that can sometimes make it a little bit difficult to talk about in a
• 24:34
  business setting.
• 24:35
  And you never had that in in also when we're doing authentic leadership workshops.
• 24:41
  I can have somebody say, can you tell me that this authentic leadership will that result in
• 24:46
  significant business growth?
• 24:48
  I need evidence what I where are where's the evidence?
• 24:51
  And then it becomes tricky, right?
• 24:54
  Because if you're being authentic, because it leads you to a certain result, in this case,
• 25:00
  more profit, then it's really inauthentic, isn't it?
• 25:04
  Because your intention is different from what's It's supposed to be.
• 25:07
  I mean, being authentic comes from the right intention.
• 25:10
  You need to do this because this is the right thing for you to do, but that's tricky.
• 25:15
  Right?
• 25:15
  Because we're used to in a business setting saying, okay.
• 25:17
  If I'm gonna do something, then I need to know what the results are.
• 25:22
  But the more and more we do that, then we end up doing things not because we really want
• 25:26
  them, but solely because it'll get us the result that we want.
• 25:29
  So that's a bit of a conundrum because people are generally in business for profit.
• 25:35
  So do you believe that truly if people are authentic, you will attract their right
• 25:40
  alignment to the business versus if inauthentic and they're not bought into your vision, then
• 25:46
  those people would go.
• 25:48
  Is that what you what you think?
• 25:51
  Yeah.
• 25:51
  I think basically What is important to know is that sometimes we mistake a purpose.
• 25:58
  We can confuse purpose and goals.
• 26:00
  So sometimes we'll have a goal that we think is a purpose.
• 26:03
  Right?
• 26:04
  So we'll say the purpose of this company is to make money, but that's a ridiculous purpose.
• 26:09
  To have for a company.
• 26:11
  That's equivalent to me asking you, what's your purpose?
• 26:13
  And you say my purpose is to survive.
• 26:16
  That's, of course, a company needs to make money in order to access but making money is
• 26:20
  just as much a goal because it's something I have to achieve as whatever else goals we what
• 26:26
  are the goals we might have in the company.
• 26:27
  Right?
• 26:28
  Mhmm.
• 26:28
  Purpose is something that comes before.
• 26:31
  This is the why.
• 26:32
  It goes back to the intention and why am I doing this and why I'm doing this is something
• 26:37
  that we need to know as individuals, but we also need to know that as, in business.
• 26:42
  And sometimes people make the wrong choice Right?
• 26:44
  Maybe what the purpose is for the business, people might think they can be aligned with it.
• 26:49
  And if it's really, I'm not a fit, I often say to people, then you have to use your feet
• 26:54
  accordingly if it's something that you can't get behind.
• 26:57
  But creating the space for people to be, like you said, authentically connected to themselves
• 27:04
  allows them to bring the best version of themselves to that environment to do the best
• 27:09
  possible work, which is I truly believe.
• 27:11
  I don't know if you do as well, Mark, that all of us wanna do really.
• 27:14
  We want it, for the most part, do really good work because that means that we're we're
• 27:18
  leaving some imprint or legacy behind.
• 27:20
  I truly believe that.
• 27:22
  But if you're misaligned with a company, It it only takes time before after a while.
• 27:27
  You're feeling like, I can't keep doing this.
• 27:30
  You don't you're not gonna bring your best self to work, and then you're gonna drop lower, in
• 27:35
  productivity and and then become more of a burden to that environment than anything else.
• 27:41
  And Sometimes it may be that people need to say this does not fit for me anymore.
• 27:46
  And I think that goes back to we talked a little talk a little bit about working with I I
• 27:50
  think it starts as early as recruiting as well.
• 27:53
  And I don't know what your thoughts are about that is to when you're recruiting to really try
• 27:57
  to understand what are the values that you're trying to attract also for the business that
• 28:02
  you're hiring for as well to start that early when try to get the right people.
• 28:08
  Let's say, so my thing was is to have everybody have an authentic voice in the world.
• 28:12
  That's my kind of my core purpose.
• 28:14
  That's why I start to go to school when I would want to make the choice so young.
• 28:19
  So if I have someone that's attracted to my business that wants to work for me, that does
• 28:23
  not believe that being transparent and allowing others to have a voice.
• 28:27
  That's gonna be a red flag at the at the onset.
• 28:30
  Right?
• 28:31
  But some companies ignore that on the upfront.
• 28:34
  They still have people in, and then they kinda get on to into the culture.
• 28:38
  And then there's a little bond start to go off.
• 28:40
  So I often talk to when I'm talking strategy, the companies talk to them about really trying
• 28:45
  to start the alignment from the beginning.
• 28:47
  Not just when you're at a growth spurt or or whatever or trying to make some changes.
• 28:52
  Yeah.
• 28:52
  I I think you're right.
• 28:53
  And I think It goes both ways.
• 28:55
  Right?
• 28:56
  It goes both for the company that's hiring, and it goes for the and for the applicants, right,
• 29:00
  because we have a tendency to sort of disregard, whether there's a match based on on
• 29:05
  a more on a deeper level or or on a purpose, for instance.
• 29:09
  But we need to realize that that chasing goals without having your purpose in it requires a
• 29:17
  very big amount of of effort and discipline.
• 29:19
  Because there's nothing pulling you forward.
• 29:22
  It's, it's just effort.
• 29:24
  It's just discipline.
• 29:25
  If you have your purpose with it, then you're getting pulled forward by your purpose, and
• 29:29
  it's it becomes a lot easier to to achieve whatever goals you have because goals in
• 29:34
  themselves are meaningless if they're not tied to a purpose.
• 29:37
  Absolutely.
• 29:38
  And I think going back to talking, I think the newer generation are definitely, I think, of
• 29:43
  myself.
• 29:44
  And when I was in corporate, I probably was that type too, just going after this thing to,
• 29:50
  like, I joined a company.
• 29:51
  I remember an executive wellness company.
• 29:53
  And I'll when I joined them, completely in line with what they did.
• 29:57
  Completely 10 years into it, I wanted to run out of the building, like it was burning, but I
• 30:03
  I was there was so much change, but in that time, of course, you're trying to get into
• 30:08
  another position.
• 30:09
  It's you're so busy that you don't have time to look.
• 30:12
  And then you're trying to find you're trying to if you're dropping from the pot, you don't
• 30:15
  wanna go into the fire to make the right decision.
• 30:18
  And sometimes that's difficult.
• 30:20
  Right?
• 30:21
  But because sometimes you're like, that's better off to have a job before you get another
• 30:25
  job.
• 30:25
  And people sometimes don't know if you find that sometimes people are wanting to make a
• 30:29
  change, but they may not, have the time or the opportunity to find that purpose alignment in
• 30:35
  the new, environment that they wanna jump into.
• 30:38
  So they may get stuck at times until they can.
• 30:41
  Yeah.
• 30:41
  Especially, this will be stuck.
• 30:43
  I talk about that in the book also.
• 30:45
  We can have a purpose.
• 30:46
  We can have values that we base our life on.
• 30:49
  But the problem is if we don't continuously investigate them and and question these values
• 30:54
  and we question these beliefs, then we run the risk of basing a a large part of our life on
• 31:01
  one belief.
• 31:02
  And then later on, when that belief is challenged, then it be we become a little
• 31:07
  scared because it becomes too costly for us.
• 31:10
  Just reevaluate this.
• 31:12
  So let's say that how to how to work is a virtue.
• 31:14
  That's a belief that I that I held in my life.
• 31:17
  If I've had that belief My entire life, and I've always worked hard, and it's been in the
• 31:23
  expense of my family, of my children, of my friends, of my health, something starts
• 31:27
  happening within me where I start questioning that belief, if that's a belief I really based
• 31:33
  my life on, then it becomes very difficult for me start questioning it.
• 31:37
  Right?
• 31:37
  And that's when we can get sort of stuck.
• 31:39
  If we don't once in a while, just try to question our beliefs just for a moment.
• 31:44
  It can be a little scary, but doesn't mean we have to let them go.
• 31:47
  But sometimes in life, we need to question our beliefs.
• 31:50
  We need to question if we still think hard work is a virtue of whatever else belief we have.
• 31:55
  We need to question them once in a while because otherwise, we risk sort of getting
• 32:01
  stuck because we've based something important on this certain belief.
• 32:05
  And if that belief then turns out to be wrong, we're in trouble.
• 32:09
  Right?
• 32:10
  Right.
• 32:10
  And it's like developmentally you might make me hard work in your twenties, and then you're in
• 32:14
  your 3rd mid thirties, and you have children now.
• 32:17
  And you're thinking hard work is important.
• 32:19
  However, not to the detriment of my grown family.
• 32:23
  So how is it that I then transmute this to be have it be a better fit because my children are
• 32:28
  only gonna be under age five for a couple more years, and I'm gonna miss that.
• 32:33
  So you're you're so right.
• 32:34
  And I think I often say that most of us in our careers need to stop and think where am I at?
• 32:42
  How is this serving me?
• 32:43
  And am I like it to your point?
• 32:45
  Is there some values that maybe you know, they're the givens, but there's other things
• 32:49
  that shift around us that we need to listen to and and start to to make some changes with.
• 32:56
  Yeah.
• 32:56
  Because, I mean, let's be honest, most our most of our values, most of our beliefs, they will
• 33:00
  need to be updated.
• 33:02
  They will need to be changed.
• 33:03
  Not a lot of people go through their entire life, but the same set of values and beliefs.
• 33:07
  And thank god for that.
• 33:08
  So so we might as well embrace it so we don't get stuck.
• 33:11
  And, we see it in we see it a lot of times in society.
• 33:14
  Right?
• 33:14
  We we see it with you sometimes you see it with these, like, very religious people.
• 33:19
  That can have have based their their their their life on a belief that let's say that
• 33:24
  every word in their holy book is literally correct.
• 33:28
  Then they they risk getting stuck because if if they stop believing one thing is wrong, then
• 33:33
  that could mean that everything is wrong.
• 33:35
  Right?
• 33:36
  So so all of a sudden, I I can have no flexibility about it, and we see that we see
• 33:41
  that a lot in life generally.
• 33:43
  The people put too much emphasis on one specific belief or one specific value, and they
• 33:48
  failed to sort of update it through their life.
• 33:50
  So this is an amazing conversation it's so nice to be able to talk to someone that kinda lives
• 33:55
  or thinks about this space all the time.
• 33:57
  So, Mark, for so let's say we have leaders listening and they're thinking, I think I'm
• 34:02
  pretty authentic, but I just need a column, like, some simple steps that I potentially
• 34:08
  could do, let's say, in the next couple weeks to get a bit of a better sense of where I'm at.
• 34:16
  What what kinds of things would you suggest that they try to gauge where they are.
• 34:21
  I think that the first thing they need to recognize is that authenticity is not something
• 34:27
  that you can accomplish.
• 34:28
  That's not something that you can check off and say, okay.
• 34:30
  I'm a 100% authentic now.
• 34:32
  Right?
• 34:32
  It's it's a dynamic journey.
• 34:34
  It's a process.
• 34:36
  Mhmm.
• 34:36
  So you can't measure yourself on some sort of authenticity scale.
• 34:41
  I think that would that would be very difficult.
• 34:43
  Right?
• 34:44
  I think that it's a lot about they could start by asking themselves, how many of my personal
• 34:50
  values do I bring with me?
• 34:53
  To my work.
• 34:54
  That's a good indicator.
• 34:55
  If you bring your personal values with you to work and you put them in play, at work, then,
• 35:02
  you know, then you're you're demonstrating authenticity.
• 35:05
  Right?
• 35:05
  Because we can have this tendency to separate it So we'll say we'll have 1 set of standards
• 35:10
  and moral standards and values at home, and we will have one when we go to work.
• 35:14
  Right?
• 35:15
  So if on our way to work, if we see an elderly lady falling in the street, we will go out of
• 35:20
  the way across the street, help that a elderly lady up.
• 35:23
  We will make sure she's okay.
• 35:25
  And we'll take it's complete stranger, but we'll take our time.
• 35:28
  No questions asked.
• 35:30
  Right?
• 35:30
  Because our moral beliefs, our values dictate that we should do that.
• 35:34
  But then when we show up at work at the door at 9 AM, then all of a sudden, sometimes we can
• 35:39
  have a tendency to say, okay.
• 35:40
  Now I'm just gonna do whatever it takes to get my result.
• 35:43
  I don't care who metaphorically falls across the street or whatever.
• 35:47
  I'm doing my thing now.
• 35:48
  Right?
• 35:48
  Right.
• 35:49
  Right.
• 35:49
  So the more we can sort of bridge that gap between our personal life and our or I should
• 35:55
  say our private life and our professional life, the more authentic.
• 35:59
  We can be at work.
• 36:00
  So that's one way to sort of evaluate.
• 36:03
  Am I being authentic?
• 36:06
  I like that.
• 36:07
  Yes.
• 36:07
  For sure.
• 36:08
  Because when I started in in the corporate world, and it was in the early nineties, and it
• 36:13
  was like, It was definitive that you had to leave the personal life at the front door.
• 36:18
  Pick go into the business life and then pick up the the business life.
• 36:21
  And we know now that that's really, I mean, how ineffective that was because that means that
• 36:27
  people were just not being, truth to themselves in so many ways.
• 36:31
  But I'm it's the the one thing that the pandemic hopefully has highlight is that with
• 36:35
  that blurring between both, that how much of that need to be yourself still be responsible
• 36:43
  for your outcomes, but to be more in alignment because then generally people are happier and
• 36:47
  if people are happier, either gonna work harder towards whatever that means to an end is.
• 36:54
  Exactly.
• 36:54
  And I think it's also in the wording.
• 36:56
  Right?
• 36:56
  I mean, maybe we should call it There's a private life and there's a business life, but
• 37:00
  everything is personal.
• 37:02
  We cannot distinguish it.
• 37:04
  Yeah.
• 37:04
  This has been an amazing chat.
• 37:07
  And, of course, Mark gave me some questions.
• 37:09
  And I can tell you, I don't think I've asked him one of the ones on on this list, but,
• 37:13
  hopefully, we've made this time together a bit useful, and, I know I've gained a lot from it.
• 37:19
  So, Mark, thanks so much for being on today.
• 37:23
  I'd like you to do is to let people know where they can get ahold of you.
• 37:26
  If they're wanting, to find out about in your training or your coaching you're speaking,
• 37:31
  where can they get ahold of you?
• 37:34
  Yes.
• 37:34
  There are several ways.
• 37:36
  If you want to read the book, the auto being authentic, then you can go to Amazon and find
• 37:41
  the book there.
• 37:42
  If you want to get in contact with me, you can, go to my website, which is tmockmaya.com.
• 37:49
  You're welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn, or you can follow me on Instagram.
• 37:54
  I'm authentic TMAC Meyer on Instagram where I share a little clips and and and posts about
• 37:59
  authenticity in life and business.
• 38:01
  Awesome.
• 38:01
  Mark, thanks again.
• 38:02
  So what am I taking away I'm taking away that sometimes when we make decisions when we're
• 38:08
  younger, we it might be a bit short sighted.
• 38:10
  So for anybody that's in the younger generation, I would say still stop and reflect
• 38:16
  and think, what do I value to Mark's point, and what values am I bringing with me to work?
• 38:22
  And or am I feeling like I need to cut them off before I entered the business realm?
• 38:27
  And if that's the case, start to challenge yourself to be a bit more aligned personally
• 38:32
  with what you take to work.
• 38:34
  So for everyone who I've written, my new book, ROR, return on relationships, if you wanna
• 38:39
  figure out your relationships are authentic, just go to roxanderhot.comforward/quiz.
• 38:45
  There's 2 quizzes there.
• 38:46
  You can find out how authentic you are either personally to Mark's point or in business, and
• 38:52
  we'll send you back a really quick, little report with next steps.
• 38:56
  Again, Mark, thanks for your time and for everyone.
• 38:58
  Thanks for hanging out with us again today, and we'll chat again with you next week.
• 39:02
  Take care.