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Amy Bowers Cordalis: Indigenous-Led Conservation and the Salmon That Came Home · The Wild Idea

• 0:00
  [instrumental music] Welcome to another conversation about our wild and changing world, a collection of stories we call the Wild Idea podcast. We started this journey to explore the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. I'm always excited to sit by and hear these amazing guests tell their stories, the stories of amazing natural landscapes and the laws and policies that have protected those places. My name is Bill Hodge, and I am joined in these conversations by my friend and truly professional advocate, Anders Reynolds. Today, we bring you an amazing voice for a landscape that has deeply embedded itself in my soul. We will be joined by Amy Bowers Cordalis. She is a lawyer, the executive director of an organization called Ridges to Riffles. She is a member of the Yurok Tribe of Northern California, and she is the recipient of the United Nations' highest environmental honor, Champions of the World Laureate. She has also written a great book about the topic we will be covering today, and it is called The Water Remembers. Certainly a great conversation, Anders, and, and, uh, looking forward to what you have to say about this place a little bit.
• 1:05
  Oh, hi, Bill. Welcome to this very special pumpkin spice flavor edition of The Wild Line. Happy October, bud. You know, it was-- I think it was this time last year that I was putting maybe a little too much effort into convincing you to do a couples costume for Halloween. If you remember, I wanted us to go as Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox.
• 1:30
  [laughs] Oh, I do remember.
• 1:33
  As I recall, I made a Babe the Blue Ox costume. I still have it hanging in my closet. We could try it again this year.
• 1:40
  [laughs] It looks good on you too, buddy, let me say. [laughs]
• 1:43
  Yeah, you liked those pictures, didn't you? That little-
• 1:46
  Oh, I did. I did
• 1:46
  ... drop down, the little, the little opening in the back of the pajamas. That's the part you liked the most.
• 1:50
  [laughs] That's a little, little creepy, but yeah. Okay. [laughs]
• 1:54
  The reason I bring this up is because I can distinctly remember having this conversation with you, and you were at the Klamath River then. That was a year ago, and here we are talking about it today.
• 2:07
  Yeah.
• 2:08
  Are you excited to dig in?
• 2:09
  I am. A year ago, literally was camped on the banks of the Klamath River, and, and now here we are gonna have this great conversation with Amy. Another crazy coincidence is, and I, I don't know if you remember me sending you this picture, but, like, 10 miles south of the Klamath River on 101 is a, I'll just call it a kitschy tourist destination. It's a giant redwood tree, but next to it is a huge statue of Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox. Do you remember that picture? The...
• 2:38
  Yes. Is that what inspired us to pursue the costume? I'm sorry. Is that what inspired me to pursue the costume and for you to leave me hanging, or did we come up with it independent?
• 2:48
  [laughs] I think I dress like Paul Bunyan every day. I mean, it's just a red flannel checkered shirt, right? I mean-
• 2:54
  Yeah, that's what's so insulting. You couldn't do it for, like, Halloween.
• 2:57
  [laughs] Yeah, I can't believe we're back around. [laughs] It sounds like you're pretty full of pumpkin spice latte at this point too, so.
• 3:05
  Mm, I love it.
• 3:06
  Uh,
• 3:07
  yeah. You know, it's a special landscape. Uh, that, that part of Northern California is really, really special to, to Laura and I. Spent a lot of time in the redwoods, spent a lot of time along the Klamath. Um,
• 3:19
  pretty amazing landscape, and I, I am just so delighted to bring this conversation with Amy to everybody because it's, it's... Oh my God, it's just one of the most inspiring stories I've heard in a long time. I don't know about you.
• 3:30
  I'm really, really, really looking forward to it. Um, I'm also looking forward to this week's word. I like this new little thing we're doing, Bill. Did you pick out a word for me to work into the interview this week?
• 3:41
  Yeah.
• 3:42
  I think eventually we're gonna be publishing the Anders word book, and it's gonna be a way to people to expand their vocabulary. So I wanna challenge you today. I think, I think it'll be easy for you to fit this one in. The word challenge for you today is vastitude. Vastitude. Let's see if you can fit that into the conversation.
• 4:00
  Vastitude? Is that... I actually don't know that. Is that distinct from vastness? Is that... Hold on, I'm gonna look this up.
• 4:07
  It's, it's real- it's really related. It's really related.
• 4:10
  Okay.
• 4:11
  Yeah. The, the va- the vast is the key root there, right? So it's about large. So that's the word I want you to slip in this week, is vastitude in this conversation with Amy.
• 4:21
  Vastitude. Let's go.
• 4:23
  Let's do it. Amy, first of all, welcome to the Wild Idea podcast. I am so excited to welcome you to our community and to explore your home a bit. I think the place I would love to start this conversation is the first covenant that the Yurok Nation has with the Creator and how that informs all that we are about to talk about here today. What, what is that covenant? Could you talk about that a little bit?
• 4:47
  Yeah. And first, I just wanna say thank you so much for having me. Um, waklau, as we say in the Yurok language. Really honored and, and just, um, excited to be here. The first covenant. I started my book, The Water Remembers, with a description of the first covenant because it sets the foundation of the Yurok worldview, our exercise of sovereignty, and our diplomacy in the world. And I wanted to share it with others because I think it has the potential to be a profound
• 5:31
  new
• 5:32
  way or, or maybe even just a profound way of revisiting, uh, the role of humans in nature and what our purpose as humans is on this planet. And to share with, you know, your audience what the first covenant is, is... It actually starts with the creation story, um, a version of the creation story for the Yurok people, which was that there were all these spirits in the universe who were lonely, and they went to the creator and said, "We want a place to be together. Will you help us?" And the creator said, "I will make you a place on one condition, that you take care of it and that you live in balance with all the different creatures and species and everything that is there on that planet." And these spirits agreed. And then after that, the creator made the Earth, um, and started kind of like with the core of the Earth and then the water and then the, the land and then the plants and the animals, and then made the humans last and told the humans, like, "This was all made for you, but you have to live in balance with it." Um, and that was that, that first covenant was the humans said, "Yes, we will live in balance. Yes, we will be the great beneficiaries of the deep abundance of the Klamath Basin, but we have these duties and responsibilities to live in balance with it and make sure that even though we are dependent upon the salmon, for example, we won't interact with them. We won't use them in a way that hurts them or harms them." So there's that balance. So it's, it's this privilege and it... This is why it's a covenant too, 'cause a covenant is a legal term, which basically means, like, the people who are in the covenant are agreeing to do something in exchange for a mutual benefit. So for us, it was, you know, we get to be the humans in this amazing place and have basically everything that we need, but we can't just take, take, take. We can't destroy environments. We can't exhaust salmon runs completely by over-harvesting. Um, we have to live in balance. And if we do that, we will always have enough. And so there was these reciprocal duties. Um, and, and with those d- duties on part of the, the salmon, for example, um, or even for the river itself,
• 8:00
  um, it included a duty to speak up and to fight for and to try to protect and restore when it was hurting. Um, so... And I should say too, so those spirits that we were talking about, you know, yes, they became people, but they also became, um, sacred sites, for example. And in my book, I talk about Oregas, which is this big, beautiful rock at the mouth on the north side of the Klamath River, and she was one of those spirits that, um, the creator actually asked her what she wanted to be, and she said she wanted to help people. And so her job is to sit on the, the very mouth of the Klamath River, you know, next to the Pacific Ocean and tell the salmon when to come into the river. And it's also, she's also a place that we go to pray, to ask for things. And so along the river, there are different spirits like that that have played these really important roles in Yurok culture and in the overall balance of our, our world. So it's really, you know, it's, it's kinda, it's just a cool thing to think about having these, like, non-human spirits that we have deep relationships with since time immemorial, um, and how that impacts our, our worldview.
• 9:15
  That is so beautiful. Um, and folks, I, I highly recommend you pick up the book. It, it is just a, a beautiful read, just as Amy described.
• 9:24
  Thank you.
• 9:25
  That story of the first covenant, you know, you, you bring up the place, like this commitment, like the place was given and there's this commitment to live in balance with a place. For our audience who've not been there, and I've been a frequent interloper of Yurok land, camping along the south bank of the river several times over the last few years, it is at a place that I will use the word seeps. It seeps into your soul.
• 9:47
  Ooh.
• 9:47
  Can you explain the land a little bit, where we're talking about, what makes it so just, I don't know, just so powerful?
• 9:54
  Ah. It is a place of water, so it makes sense that you use the word seep, right? The way that water works.
• 10:03
  Uh, the mouth of the Klamath River is one of the most powerful places I've ever been on Earth. And it's, it, it's this,
• 10:14
  like, deeply moving exchange between the Pacific Ocean and then the, the Klamath River, which the Klamath River in itself is big and beautiful and mighty, and it historically was the third-largest salmon-producing river in the continental US. So, you know, it's like this, it's this, this really powerful place or, uh, being, because of, for us, of course, it's, it's alive and has a spirit, and so it's a being. So it's this place where the, you know, the Pacific Ocean meets this really powerful river, and it's a place that's also a really moderate, um, climate. You know, the, the temperature is anywhere between, like... The coldest it ever gets is probably 55. [laughs] Um, and maybe it feels a little wetter 'cause it's so, you know, wet, or it feels a little colder, I mean, 'cause it's so wet. But, and the hottest it gets is probably, like, 80 on a, you know, the hottest of hot days with climate change. So it's just so temperate. So it's a place that, like, everything can live, you know? Like, things just, like, thrive there. And there's water in all forms, whether it be, like, you know, ocean and, like, these big, big waves. It's a place that has these most powerful waves, or, you know, fresh water, or there's also fog. You know, it's right in... The redwoods are all around that area too, and so there's deep, dense fog, which we call redwood food because that's what redwood trees eat. Um, and it rains a lot, and it's just generally... I wouldn't call it humid, but it's, like, you know, a place where you wake up in the morning and there's water on, on the, the, you know, the- Blades of grass. And so there's just... It's... The climate is temperate, there's water, there's occasional sunshine, um, there's these intersection of just these powerful ecosystems, and so it brings life in all forms. I mean, I have never seen so many seals or sea lions in one place, or so many birds, different kinds of birds that come, you know, from all over. Um, and the, the... [chuckles] And then the... I'm thinking of, like, the hillsides next to where, like, the village of Requoi is. There's all kinds of first foods there too, you know, whether it be willows that we make our baskets, um, or little sea cucumbers, or, um, there's salmonberries and blackberries that just grow, and haze- there used to be a lot of hazelnuts there. Um, ferns. There's a ton of fennel. It's just, um... You know, you said earlier that, that word seep. It's like a place where you can go and it's just easy to exist.
• 13:04
  And think about, like, you know, to, to your audience, like,
• 13:08
  you know, think about a place that you went and you just sort of sat down and it was easy to breathe. It was visually pleasing, you know, that you're warm, but not too warm. Like, it, it's just an easy place to, to exist, and that's how I would describe it. And from that place of ease comes so much, like, um, just joy and abundance because you know that you have what you need to survive right there.
• 13:36
  Amy, your love for the Klamath is obvious in that answer. But for people who are hearing the story of your advocacy for the Klamath River for the first time, um, the river had four dams on it, I believe, and, and taking, taking them down became one of, if not the largest dam removal project in US history. And now I'm gonna ask you a bunch of questions all at once. Y- why did they have to come down, and, and who were the unlikely people you had to get in one room in order to make that happen? You know, you, you mentioned earlier that humans have to find their roles in order to live in balance with creation. What were the conversations among allies about what roles each of them would play, and how, how did you keep that group together?
• 14:25
  Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll go back to the, the sort of setting the table. So there were four dams in the mid-Klamath that were a part of a hydroelectric project. We still have two dams at the very top of the river that, um, are... They allow for fish passage, and we are currently working on their final disposition. So fingers crossed for, you know, more good work to come. But the four dams were mid-Klamath, and they were built without fish ladders between 1913 and 1964. So imagine the genius of this, right? Like, and I'm being facetious, um, just in case people don't catch that in my voice, but
• 15:08
  third-largest salmon-producing river in the continental US. You know, it's, it's supporting tribal cultures up and down the entire Klamath Basin, which is a very large basin. It's... Those salmon runs were also supporting offshore commercial fisheries, you know, recreation, on and on and on. You build dams without fish passage in the middle of the river, those salmon cannot get to their historical spawning grounds. And salmon are a species that will die trying to get to their home waters to where they were actually born to spawn. You know, that's how salmon work. They won't spawn unless they make it back to their home waters. And so Iron Gate Dam was the most downriver dam, and it looked like a salmon cemetery, um, because every year, salmon would come to the dam and they would die trying. And so, you know, trying to get past it, and by the end of, you know, October, November, you just have these salmon carcasses just sort of lining the sides of the river next to the dam. It was so morbid and ugly, um,
• 16:20
  and it ruined the salmon runs 'cause they didn't spawn. And if you don't spawn, you can't reproduce. Also, in addition, so this goes to, like, why they were a problem, um, the Klamath Basin is a, is one comprehensive basin that all of the traditional ecological functions of the top of the basin work together with the lower part of the basin. And so how that plays out is that at the top of the basin in Southern Oregon, there were a series of beautiful lakes and wetlands that were, were drained for agriculture. Um, but then also there were a lot of springs and tributaries, um, that basically flowed into the Klamath River, and there was a lot of cold water springs right behind the area where the dams were built. And so when you blocked those, the... Like, you blocked the river with the four dams- There were two thousand acres of reservoirs behind those dams, and all of that water, all the cold water would get caught behind the dams in the reservoirs. And then in addition to that, um, there's an agricultural project at the top of the basin where those wetlands and lakes used to be. And so the agricultural runoff would go down into the water, stagnate in the reservoirs, and it essentially created really bad water quality problems every single year. We would have massive toxic, um, blue-green algae blooms every year. And it was in part because those natural, you know, systems of just the water flowing, those cool water springs sort of, um, making the water colder was disrupted, and instead the water was just stagnated. And then the other things that the dams did was in a, a free-flowing river, you have sediment that just trickles down. That's a part of what it does. And what's cool about that settlement or sediment is it's like a natural scrub brush, right? So you can just imagine, like, these little sediments, they flow with the water, and they're just cleaning. And in the absence of those, which was what was happening on the Klamath, there was no sediment getting below here, and so everything was getting dirty. And what that was doing was causing a fish disease that spread amongst the salmon that did... actually killed the baby salmon. So those baby salmon, um, that were still in the river in lower parts, um,
• 18:52
  it killed them. And so every year we had these, like, fish kills, basic baby fish kills that were, again, just getting at the, the overall population and genetic diversity of the Klamath salmon runs. And so, you know, still to this day, we're down to about three to five percent of the historical salmon runs that we had on the Klamath. Um, and it was clear through a lot of work and research, whether that be, you know, modern science looking at, like, the impacts of the dams that I just described on the river,
• 19:28
  or also, and marrying, I would say, the traditional knowledge about how the river used to work when it was healthy and in balance, it just became clear that if we wanted to save the river, if we wanted to save the fish, if we wanted to save our cultural, like, way of life, those dams had to come out.
• 19:48
  Amy, tell us a little bit more about your strategy, um, to win the day here. I, I know you had people traveling across the world to confront power company at shareholder meetings, but you also had, you know, conversations among allies back on the home front at the same time. Um, what kept everybody going throughout this process? I know it was a really long stretch, and, you know, how did, how do those, those two things work together, the sort of loud public pressure and the, and the quiet, um, strategy making?
• 20:29
  Great question. And [sighs] there's the values that informed that fight and then the action. And what I would say is, you, you know, it comes back to our duties as indigenous people from the Klamath to restore and protect and to speak up for the salmon and the river when it needs us. And I think how it ha-- you know, what happened was that
• 21:03
  we... Yeah, and I, I kind of struggle to answer the question because it's so big. [laughs] You know, and I, I... You have to read the book. Uh, not to shamelessly plug the book, but, um, I... It, it literally took me a whole book to, to answer that question because I felt it was really important that people understood how we did this. Um, you know, the other piece of Klamath dam removal is it's the largest salmon restoration project in world history, and it's also the largest US dam removal project. And, you know, that, that didn't happen even just because of the 20-year concerted effort of Klamath dam removal. It happened because, you know, Yurok people, uh, my ancestors, the other ancestors of indigenous peoples of the Klamath had been fighting the forces of colonization since the newcomers arrived and fighting for that way of being in the world of balance and fighting against extraction, right? You know, when the newcomers came to the Klamath, it was first gold mining, it was logging and, you know, and then it was massive salmon canneries on the Klamath, and then it was the dams and the reclamation project. And so the river itself was colonized, and through that, the indigenous peoples fought in many different ways to fight back against that kind of ecological destruction. And
• 22:31
  by way of example, in my family, um, you know, we fought really hard to make sure we could continue to fish on the Klamath. But what... with that came also a fight for sovereignty and a fight for water rights and a fight for our reservation. And it took... [sighs] Well, I guess I'll, I'll say in 1933, the State of California outlawed all Yurok fishing on the Klamath River, you know, within our reservation. And for about 40 years, my family and many other indigenous families on the Klamath, Yurok people, they just kept fishing because it was how they lived and they had no other way. But... Particularly my great uncle Ray, he was arrested 19 times by the State of California just for fishing on his home waters. And his final arrest led to a Supreme Court case, Matz versus Arnett, which was decided in 1973. And the, the court there held that despite the General Allotment Act of the, of 1892 opening the Yurok reservation to allotments and home setting, the Yurok reservation, which was defined as a mile on either side of the river from the mouth up about 45 miles, was still Indian country. And what that meant was it was still the Yurok Indian Reservation, and so we still had all of our, you know, rights to exercise our sovereignty, including fishing, water rights, gathering, hunting, you know, the, the ability to make laws and be governed by them on that territory. And that was so important because then, you know, you fast-forward to 2005, 2007, 2008, like that kind of timeframe and, and even a little bit bef- well, it was right about in the mid-2000s, um, that case and other cases that followed it that held that the Yurok people, the Yurok tribe had what we call federally reserved rights to, to fish, to hunt, you know, to water, to, to, to, you know, exercise our sovereignty. Those were the foundation of the legal arguments that led to dam removal and that ultimately got us to this big victory. And so, you know, when you ask about, like, "Well, you fought for so long. Why?" It's because that's what we do as Yurok people. I often think of us as, like, you know, Star Wars and if you went to some planet where, like, you know, the, um, the people there, their whole job was just to protect the environment and that's why they exist and they're salmon people. Like, that would be us. [laughs] You know? So that's why we exist. So that's what we did and, and also we were following the tradition of our ancestors and what our elders had taught us to do through Supreme Court battles, through, you know, battles on the river bars, whatever it might be. So we just continued that because that's who we are as a people. Um, and in terms of our modern strategy,
• 25:40
  it, it took
• 25:42
  grassroots organizing and protesting, um, and, and that really came from the river. There are tremendous grassroots leaders. You know, and I was in law school when this was happening, and they were leading the charge going to Scotland, um, protesting against the dam owners. And eventually, the, the dams were transferred to, um, Berkshire Hathaway, who was owned by Warren Buffett, right, one of the richest men in the world. And they would go and they would protest at the shareholder meetings. Um, so they went out to Omaha. They went to Portland, Oregon. They went all over, and they were seen as, you know, criminals and renegades, and yet they were just trying to protect their way of life and exercise their duties to the Creator in that first covenant. And, and then eventually that really got the, the attention of what I would call the, like, you know, court of public opinion of, like, "Hey, what is happening with these dams and why do we still have them?" And then there was a bit of, like, serendipitous kind of timing where the license for the dams expired in the mid-2000s, and then that triggered a proceeding in the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, FERC, to relicense the dams. And so then we had a legal opportunity to advocate for dam removal, and that's when, you know, the tribe's rights really were important, but also we teamed up with environmentalists, with fishermen, and we, you know, made these really strong legal arguments combining federal Indian law, environmental law, modern power law, and it became clear that those dams had to come out, you know? So the law was also one really important part of it. But then, too, um, leadership was super important. Um, once, once we got to this legal victory that basically said, you know, "Power company, you, to relicense these dams, are gonna need to install fish ladders," there was an economic analysis done that demonstrated it was cheaper to remove the dams than to keep them in and install these fish ladders. And so there was a pause on the, the regulatory proceeding, and settlement negotiations started, and that's when, you know, there was a lot of leadership. There was a lot of technical information. There was a gazillion insurance risk analysis done. [laughs] You, you know, you can only imagine a gazillion budget analysis on and on and on. Um, but by the end of it, we had a really solid settlement agreement. It was a 500 million dollar settlement agreement for dam removal that equally valued the rights of, you know, nature, the river and the salmon, and, um, the Indigenous peoples and business. So it was, you know, it was a Herculean effort for a Herculean-type project.
• 28:43
  We step aside for a word from our sponsor, and we'll be right back with more of the conversation.
• 28:49
  This is Drew Smith from Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I'm listening to the Wild Idea podcast. It is, it is not a shock that you come from a long line of advocates and people who've been willing to fight, uh, and take that fight as far as the Supreme Court because you are so good at telling the power of, of what was behind all of this. Not, not, not just the, the covenant story, but the, [laughs] literally the legal groundings for which how this, how this had to play out. Um, after the dams came down, a group of Indigenous teenagers paddled the whole river from the mountains to the ocean. I think it was a 310-mile journey that took them about a month. These were the first people to do that in over a century. I'm, I'm curious, why did it matter so much that it was Indigenous youth specifically to be the ones to first go down that now free-flowing river once again?
• 29:38
  Yeah, it almost makes me cry thinking about it. Um, I had the pleasure of joining them at the top of the, the river, of the basin, and then also at the bottom. And
• 29:50
  the amount of joy present was contagious. And
• 29:57
  for... Yeah. Um, my niece was there, and for, for me personally,
• 30:06
  what it meant for those Indigenous youth to do the first descent was that
• 30:15
  we don't have to fight anymore, and that she was the first generation of our family that could simply enjoy the river. And that's freedom,
• 30:25
  you know? That, that is a, a freedom, um, and it's one that we have not enjoyed since colonization.
• 30:34
  And the amount of just, like, profound joy that she got from that, the amount of joy that my ninety-one-year-old grandmother got from knowing that her great-granddaughter was participating in the first descent was profound. You know, just internally and sort of from a, a chemical kind of emotional place of being able to experience those profound moments of joy is deeply healing. You know, especially for Indigenous communities with generations of, you know, genocide, assimilation, inherited anger and trauma, to then witness something so healing and joyful and a profound exercise of sovereignty and, you know, just hope. It, it, it's, it's like, um...
• 31:28
  I don't know. It, it was almost like ceremony of, like, going through something that was so profoundly healing that it just transforms who you are. Um, and I'm, I'm really proud to share too that she graduated... My niece is Kiawiki, and she graduated, um, high school this summer and just started at Cal Berkeley, um, and wants to get into law, you know? [laughs] Yeah, and then I'm really excited also, um, we haven't shared this yet, but, um, another one of the kayakers, she's a Karuk woman named Ruby. Um, she is gonna join Ridges to Riffles Indigenous Conservation Group, um, the nonprofit that I run, um, for an internship. And so we're really happy to continue to support her, and it's just a cool sort of like, you know, as the river flows, so do we, and we keep finding all these ways to, um, be in community together. It's, it's special.
• 32:21
  As the river flows, so do we. I-- That's so true. I mean, the same summer that those youth paddled to the sea, salmon returned. [laughs] They, they started returning to parts of the river that they hadn't reached in, in generations. What, what did it mean to you to see those two things happen at once?
• 32:39
  You guys are gonna have me in tears. [laughs]
• 32:43
  That's what we're going for here. That's what we're going for.
• 32:45
  I know. [laughs] Oh my God.
• 32:49
  Straight to the point, man. Dang. [laughs] So,
• 32:56
  yeah, twenty twenty-five was an amazing year. Um, what I will say is three days after Iron Gate Dam was removed and the water reconnected itself from upstream, you know, going over the dam and reconnecting with the downstream,
• 33:18
  three days later, salmon passed there.
• 33:22
  Three days. And, and imagine this. So, you know, there were, in anticipation of Klamath Dam removal for twenty years, the brightest minds, the best scientists in the world studied how quickly the Klamath salmon would return. Five years, ten years, twenty years, you know, we don't, we don't really know because they haven't been able to access that habitat in almost a hundred years. You know, and salmon now, you know, they may have... That same salmon may have it deep in their DNA where they used to spawn, but they haven't been able to access it. So, you know, their nature is to go where they were born, so they thought, "Oh, they'll just stop and go where they were born." No. Three days later, the leader salmon just jammed past where the former Iron Gate Dam was and went into good spawning territory behind it. And then after that, there... That first year, there were about seven thousand salmon that went up into that historical spawning territory, um, and spawned. And then what's cool is that last year, um...
• 34:30
  Oh, and I said the year wrong. It was twenty twenty-four when the dams came out and that they did the first descent. So check that, okay? Um, but so that first year in twenty twenty-four, there were seven thousand salmon that went past the former dam sites. And then in twenty twenty-five, there was about double that that went up, and then they went further into the more than four hundred miles of spawning habitat that they historically had been into but had been denied for a hundred years. So, you know, the... My book is called The Water Remembers. Another appropriate version could have been The Salmon Remember, because boy did they go right back into that historical spawning habitat, and clearly they had some deep ancestral memory about where they had been in the basin.
• 35:19
  It's profound.
• 35:20
  I- I'm glad you brought the, the book back up again. I, I wanna go to a specific part in that, in The Water Remembers, in a section of that book that really stuck with me. And it goes back to the reciprocity the creator promised for caring for the land.
• 35:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:34
  Can you talk a little bit about the waters of Blue Creek and that significance, both to you and your family personally, but just in general to the, to the watershed?
• 35:43
  [laughs] Yeah.
• 35:45
  Uh, and I'm really, really, really not trying to make you cry here, but that part of the book really stuck out with me, the, the story of how the water in the end saved, you know. And I, and I just wanted to... I wondered if you'd talk about Blue Creek and, and, and that part of your personal family history and, and, and, and what it, what it means in this context of the story about the Klamath Basin.
• 36:07
  And were you talking about the part of the story where my dad fell in, or were you talking... Yeah.
• 36:12
  Yes.
• 36:13
  Okay. Yeah.
• 36:13
  In the river, in the river. The cold water literally saved him, yeah.
• 36:17
  Yeah. Um,
• 36:19
  so Blue Creek is one of the first tributaries to the Klamath River, and it's on the lower Klamath. It's, you know, in Northern California. It's, uh, you know, and I, I, somewhere between river mile, mile marker like 15 or 20, um, and it's a profoundly sacred place. The waters come from the, you know, Cascade Range right there. And for us, that area is called our high country, and that's our spiritual grounds. And so, you know, the water comes from this very spiritual place. And the, the creek itself is named after the water because it's very blue and it's very clear, and so it's, it has almost this, like, tropical blue, um, coloring, and it's just remarkably beautiful. And it's also a cold water refuge. There are springs that come up from the earth right around the mouth of Blue Creek where it meets the Klamath, and so it makes the creek extremely cold. And the salmon use it as a cold water refuge. I like to call it, like, a rest stop along the highway. You know how if you're traveling down most, you know, major highways, they have these little rest stops and you pull over and, you know, rest a little bit and get going again? That's kind of what Blue Creek is for salmon. Um,
• 37:51
  so it's just this, it's-- And then the tribe itself, through tribal law, has designated the whole watershed as a salmon sanctuary. And so we manage it in order to maximize salmon habitat, water quality, you know, everything you need for, for good salmon. And then I should say steelhead too. It's amazing steelhead. Um, but Blue Creek, it was for me always a place that we would go and, um, explore as a kid. We would vacation up at Blue Creek. My family has land, um, not too far from it, and so we would take a short boat ride and go explore. And, um, it just was, you know, it just feels like a sacred, sacred, powerful place. And, um, there was this one time, my dad was probably in his mid-50s, and, um,
• 38:48
  he was fishing up there with my brother who was... He must have been a teenager. And, um, he started having signs of a heart attack and didn't know it, but, you know, was not, wa- wasn't feeling well. And so Will, my brother, was kind of downstream and he was, my dad, upstream a little bit, and he was trying to call to Will and, um, slipped, which he doesn't normally do, you know, so he was clearly compromised. And he slipped and completely fell, was totally submerged in the waters of Blue Creek and was under for a decent amount of time, but was able to, like, regain, you know, his footing and got up and,
• 39:39
  um, felt a lot better. And so he immediately, they went home, um, and they got to the doctor the next morning, and the doctor confirmed that he had had a minor heart attack and that when he fell in the water, it jumpstarted his heart and probably saved his life.
• 39:56
  Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. But, but this is, this is sort of the magic of how Yurok country works. Um, there really is this sort of deeper connection and relationship to the, and I would say the different spirits there that inhabit the river or the creek or, you know, just th- that whole place. And so things like that happen. And I, I personally, and this is sort of adding another layer to this, I don't think that that kind of relationship is limited to Yurok people. I think that is something that all humans could enjoy if we were to choose to accept our responsibilities and to really tune in to, like, what does our environment need and how can I use my life force and, you know, my resources and capacity to, to help and to serve? Because I think when we as humans accept that relationship and act on those responsibilities, then nature helps us in ways like it helped save my dad's life.
• 41:01
  Amy, you received the United Nations highest environmental honor for your work on the Klamath. And even today, the UN points to your work as a model for how these campaigns could function in other places. Uh, for listeners who've never heard of it, what is that award? And then what did it feel like to be recognized on so large a stage, a, a stage with such vastitude, for something that's so rooted in your own backyard?
• 41:32
  So receiving the United Nations Champion of the Earth award- Was, um, a very big, deep honor and I,
• 41:48
  I felt like
• 41:50
  it was, you know, coming to me, but it was an acknowledgement of the work that my community had done, that my ancestors had done, that the river had done, that the salmon had done. And,
• 42:07
  and, and in some ways, it just felt deeply empowering because for a very long time, it felt like...
• 42:19
  And I guess I'll just be very vulnerable here. Like, it felt like the rest of the world didn't care about the Klamath or the salmon, um, because we were up against such
• 42:32
  forceful odds, right? Tremendous odds. Um, and there was, you know, a time in 2002 when literally, you know, a, a bad water decision made by the Vice President of the United States caused the largest fish kill in American history on my reservation, you know? And so we went from having, you know, the US government continue to attack us and our cultural natural resources, and we really looked at that as, you know, that event of the fish kill, seventy thousand salmon died as an act of ecocide against us. And so to go from sort of that to then having this, um, international award that uplifted the river, the salmon, the issue, our culture
• 43:26
  just felt like there was still good in the world. You know? It just felt like, yeah, there are these tremendous powers that seek to continue extraction, but there is also so many good people with good intentions and institutions with good intentions that uplift balance and, you know, reciprocity and responsibilities. And so it just felt like, well, maybe there's a future here
• 43:58
  for
• 43:59
  planet Earth [laughs] and for people on planet Earth. And, and I guess the bigger thing that I got from it, you know, you were talking about, like, this was just the work in your backyard.
• 44:11
  Um,
• 44:13
  I think for everyone working on the Klamath, and, and there were thousands and thousands of champions of Klamath Dam removal, you know, indigenous peoples who were grassroots leaders, who were scientists, who were tribal leaders, who, you know, were policy people, law people. And then we had our allies, you know, people in the federal government who worked really hard on permitting, for example. Um, we had admin people who, you know, scheduled the calls. We had mathematicians, you know, crunching, and accountants crunching the numbers. Um, there just were thousands and thousands of Klamath champions. And so it just felt like, look at what we were able to do on our home waters with all these different people contributing whatever they could to this larger effort. And then,
• 45:11
  you know, look what it led to. It led to the world's largest salmon restoration project in history. And then, wow, you know, look, this international organization is acknowledging that. And so it, it does give you hope. Like, it deeply gives you hope that, um, if we can do it, other people can. I like to say that we are not unicorns on the Klamath. [laughs] Do you-- I hope you guys know what I mean by that. Like, we don't have some special kind of superhuman skill or, you know, like magical powers to make these things happen. We just were extremely devoted because of that first covenant, because of the creation story. We wouldn't-- And we're stubborn as all heck. We wouldn't take no for an answer and, um, you know, we just kept going. And so
• 46:06
  I think the real answer to your question is receiving that just gave me a tremendous amount of hope that we as humans can heal the planet, and we don't have to move to Mars, and we can continue to live on Earth.
• 46:22
  So speaking of allies and just making it work, I'm, I'm so, so curious. Your organization is built on the idea that indigenous nations should lead conservation on their own land, and Ridges to Ripples treats indigenous sovereignty as the vehicle for conservation. And I'd love to know more about where does that model collide with, quote-unquote, "mainstream conservation," or maybe we can call it colonial conservation, and where are those models in concert with each other?
• 47:02
  We need a whole podcast to download that 'cause there's a lot of ways I could go with that. So I'll just start with maybe my kind of top observations and then also what I have witnessed. At this juncture in the climate crisis, we need all the tools we have available to us, and we can no longer tolerate polarized conservation. We must unite, and we must rely on our strongest arrows in our quiver, which is to say that there shouldn't be a, you know, colonial Western... Conservation versus indigenous conservation. And I'm, I'm really glad you asked this question, because I think it gets to the heart of, like, some of the roadblocks that we put in front of ourselves as conservationists. And it is
• 48:00
  a ref- it is there because of our history. It is there because of, you know, we were at the, you know, the Indian nations were at war with the US government. And also, deeply too, I think there's conflicting worldviews about the role of humans in conservation. You know, there was this idea, um, in colonial conservation that humans were not a part of nature. But meanwhile, the nature that was observed when the newcomers first arrived was deeply tended and stewarded and nurtured by the indigenous peoples. And so the bounty that was present on this land when the newcomers came was because of indigenous stewardship. And so,
• 48:51
  you know, for us, an indigenous-led stewardship, you know, it's rooted in the value that humans are a part of nature and have a role in it. And that role, which, you know, we talked about in the first covenant, is to steward and to protect and, and to, you know, take in the sense of, you know, taking your first foods, um, but doing it in, with deep respect and making sure you're not harming whether it's the salmon or the elk or the buffalo or the acorn, you know, whatever it might be. So it's, it's about doing it in balance. Um, and I think also we have to acknowledge we have these responsibilities to the land, to the water, to all the different species. And if we adopt a worldview that says we're not a part of nature at all, I think we have a harder time exercising those responsibilities. So we gotta kinda get to the next era, and we, we need to, like, clean house from my perspective. And Ridges to Rifles tries to do that by
• 50:03
  acknowledging, one, you know, with, with Klamath Dam removal, partnerships were everything. Um, you know, and there were the natural partnerships with conservation organizations. And in the Klamath Dam removal model, the best thing that those conservation organizations could do was not lead. It was to empower the tribes, and that's what they did, and then that's how we became so successful. But then there's the other layer of turning your enemy into your ally, and, you know, we did that with the power company over long and tedious and hard discussions and negotiations and, you know, got there eventually. But I think what that shows us is that if we can pull that model of, you know, one, we all have these shared responsibilities to the land, the water, the air, the creatures, ourselves, and we should do business in a way that creates balance rather than destruction and extraction, that then we can have a sustainable model for humans to continue to live on this Earth. And I think there's this big dichotomy too of like, oh, well, you can only protect the environment and indigenous rights if you don't make any money. Klamath Dam removal was profitable.
• 51:25
  Hands down, it was profitable, right? Um, the power company supported the negotiation and the settlement deal because it was a better financial deal for its rate payers. And then on top of that, um, the physical dam removal was done by one of the world's largest construction companies, and they were there because they were making money.
• 51:48
  So we no longer have to buy into this idea of either/or, like these polarized dichotomies, you know, that we're seeing so amplified in our current sort of democracy. I don't think that's... That, that is not the future. The future is recognizing that we all have a common interest in clean water, clean air, healthy, you know, land and, and creatures and biodiversity. And it doesn't mean we can't be capitalists to protect those things. We have to adjust our, one, our values and our relationships with the Earth and our relationships with people. And I think that's the path toward sustainability and peace.
• 52:31
  Wow. You captured a lot there, but I, I am gonna have to say we are gonna have to have you back on to have a further discussion about, uh, people as part of the environment as opposed to separate from it, because that's, I mean, that's the root of all of this, right? And, uh, that was, that was a really, really beautiful answer. And, and, uh, just I can't thank you enough, Amy, for coming on. The book is The Water Remembers.
• 52:53
  The people are the Yurok people in Northern California, Southern Oregon.
• 52:59
  The organization is Ridges to Rifles. Amy, thank you so much for joining us. This has just been great, and you're gonna have to be a repeat offender. You're gonna have to come back on the podcast because we have a lot more we need to explore on that last question, for sure.
• 53:11
  Thank you, guys. This was a real honor to be with you, and I really appreciate the thoughtfulness, um, of the questions. You guys, like, pulled on my heartstrings and then brought down the hammer. [laughs]
• 53:23
  Amy, you have the power of restoration, the, the river, the salmon, and you're making me feel restored, uh, with this conversation. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for coming on.
• 53:35
  That's, that's our, that's our purpose in the world. [laughs] But thank you so much for joining us, Amy.
• 53:39
  [laughs] Okay. Well, I'd love to come back.
• 53:42
  We'll, we'll make that happen for sure. Coming up on The Wild Idea podcast, we will go from huge trees and the damp climate of the Klamath River to the high plains of the Dakotas to talk bison and prairie restoration with the folks at Wild Idea bi- Bison. And boy, do I love that name. And we will be chatting with the CEO of Nemo, one of my favorite gear brands and maker of the tent that I use out in the wild. We love bringing you these explorations of the intersection of wild nature and our own human nature. If you enjoy the show and you wanna support our continued efforts, you can buy us a coffee, which is a link on our website at thewildidea.com. Any gift of support helps. While you're there, be sure to subscribe to our newsletter and take a minute to recommend us to a friend. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your podcast player of choice. Let's put on our PFDs, let's grab a paddle, let's get in the boat, let's hit that free-flowing Klamath River. When we do, we will see all of you on down the river.
• 54:34
  The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bren Russell at Pod Lab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com.
• 55:11
  [instrumental music]