Latest / 775 Alive / Ep018: Rural Public Media?

Transcript

Ep018: Rural Public Media? · 775 Alive

• 0:03
  [Music] Welcome to the 775 Alive podcast, your rural Nevada headquarters for decoding politics, economics, and general global shenanigans. I'm Crystal Newton, your business strategist, breaking down why Nevada's hustle is stronger than a sagebrush root in a windstorm. Here with my trusty co-host, Scott Gavorsky, PhD historian, here to explain the smart lessons of history, even if we are likely to ignore them. Grab your boots for a wild ride through today's most important news.
• 0:34
  Scott: So, welcome back to 775 Alive. We're just trying to get through the end of summer here before the Labor Day holiday.
• 0:39
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah. Two weeks till Labor Day. And I over in my neck of the woods. We have the Tri County Fair, Pershing County, Humboldt County, and Lander County. Got the rodeo going on. We've got music, entertainment, and they even bring some fair rides in, but they're the ones they put on the back of semi-trucks. So, I don't I don't know. Scott: You don't trust them? Of course, we got the Elko County Fair. We're starting to see politicians and officials come wandering through here. Uh candidates coming through here. So ...
• 1:04
  Scott: Crystal: Moseying on through.
• 1:09
  Scott: parades. Of course, our big thing is we just recently put together coming up here, of course,
• 1:14
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Yes. And you have managed the impossible.
• 1:14
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Scott: I don't think it was impossible.
• 1:19
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Crystal: It has been my dream the last into one space to have a conversation. And it seems like it's been impossible, but you managed it.
• 1:27
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Scott: Yeah. Yeah. So, we're going Republican Party, the Elko County Democratic Party, and the Independent American Party, which are the three largest parties here, are going to come together on September 18th and do a a panel discussion.
• 1:40
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Crystal: Well, let's see if that out.
• 1:44
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Scott: Well, I don't, I don't think they're going to back out. They've been quite excited. This is this is a good way actually to to look for some commonalities and and similarities even though we'll probably, or not probably we'll definitely divide on issues.
• 1:53
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Crystal: Now tell me something. Is this going to be broadcast on the local radio?
• 1:58
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Scott: Yep. You saw where this is going. It's one of our, one of our local radio stations is going to broadcast it live. We're doing it at the performing arts center at the high school so they can just pull it off the thing. Which gets us right into our topic today. The the whole thing with public media.
• 2:10
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: Crystal: We are talking about public media.
• 2:15
  September 17th is Constitution Day. Crystal: The DOGE team found $9 billion in funding to cut and 1 billion of that was public media,
• 2:22
  Scott: Right.
• 2:22
  Scott: Crystal: And so is it relevant? Was it time for it to go? Is it going to create a big impact here in Nevada? How is this really going to hit? I know we've heard Katherine Maher come out and talk about everything's going to fail if we don't have public radio. So we thought we'd have a conversation just how that's going to work out. Scott: And, and Katherine Maher, of course, you know, we've had a lot of stuff. Not only was those recission packages where they peeled back money out of that nine billion, a little over seven and a half billion of it had gone to foreign operations, right? But they peeled back a lot of money and it's in the upcoming fiscal year 2026, which is the appropriations packages they're working on now. There's no funding for the Corporation of Public Broadcasting.
• 3:03
  Scott: Crystal: Yes.
• 3:10
  Scott: public broadcasting system, PBS, the television, and then NPR, national public radio.
• 3:10
  Scott: Crystal: Well, and I think, you know, this is an interesting entity from a business standpoint because basically what the Corporation for Public Broadcasting does is a foundation. Their sole job is to take in money from the government and redistribute it to nonprofits like NPR or PBS and they take 6%?
• 3:33
  Scott: Scott: Yeah. About 6% is their operating overhead. a 3% credit card charge and these are our tax dollars being put out to good work and they're charging a 6% overhead fee to take money from one and hand it to the other. So I think DOGE in this instance made made the right recommendation for a cut.
• 3:51
  Scott: Scott: Well, I think it's a much more complicated issue. And I'll point out for any of us in the nonprofit world, you know, 8 to 15% is sort of the cut off, but a lot of times we're managing managing direct programs, food banks, and whatnot. So that there's much more direct expertise involved.
• 4:06
  Scott: Crystal: I should point out we're both nonprofit owners.
• 4:11
  Scott: Scott: Yeah. Yes, we are. Yes.
• 4:16
  Scott: But I think . . .
• 4:16
  Scott: Crystal: But we don't get federal tax dollars. came about and that's part of why this story is so interesting, I think, is that part of part of why that comes about and this entangling of sort of potentially politically motivated, we'll put it that way, and public funding. But the thing that's getting us that I think is so fascinating about this is how the rurals are showing up in this.
• 4:38
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah.
• 4:43
  Scott: politicians who claim that if this funding is cut to the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which has already said it's going to spool down at the end of fiscal year 25, so September 30th, 2025, right? It's going to spool down operations. But if we cut NPR or cut PBS, it's rural areas that are going to suffer. And that's one of the things you want to work . . . look at is how true is this in reality, right?
• 5:05
  Scott: Crystal: Just from a common sense of Starlink and the internet. Everyone has a cell phone. It's hard to see where public media could serve something that only it can serve. Especially in the age of podcasting, you have this enormous market blowing up and they don't get tax funding, but they, they seem to proliferate.
• 5:26
  Scott: Well, let's come back to that at the end because I think there is an interesting parallel with podcasting. But let's stick, uh, first let's hear a little bit from Katheryn Maher. Katherine Maher is of course the president chief executive officer at the Corporation for Public Broadcasting who's been at the center of a lot of this controversy.
• 5:38
  Scott: Crystal: Which I might add she took that position in March 2024.
• 5:42
  Scott: Scott: Oh yeah.
• 5:49
  Scott: entire funding is cut.
• 5:49
  Scott: Scott: Right.
• 5:55
  Scott: Yeah, this is going to be difficult. Crystal: Her big the big argument is like you know people will die. The thing Democrats love to say people will die. She's like it's very important like so I'm going to play this clip from her that you found. Scott: Right.
• 6:10
  Scott: Yeah, this is going to be difficult. Crystal: the Press back when the recission cuts were passed back in July 2025.
• 6:10
  Scott: Yeah, this is going to be difficult. Crystal: Crystal: The strongest argument on why we should keep giving a billion dollars.
• 6:17
  Scott: Yeah, this is going to be difficult. Crystal: [Meet the Press Clip] All right. So here's your opportunity. How uh does NPR uh how would cutting it be a risk to public safety? So, the most important thing for everyone watching to know is that these cuts are not about NPR. They are about the National Public Radio Network. 70% of all of the funds that are at risk right now go directly to local stations. Last night, while the Senate was on the floor uh debating this exact package, we saw a 7.3 uh uh register earthquake hit off the coast of Alaska. Three stations immediately went into broadcast around tsunami warnings. The local sirens in their hometown told residents to tune in to their local radio station. our staff in those well, excuse me, not our staff, local staff in those stations stayed on the ground at sea level, putting themselves at risk to make sure that their local residents had the information they need. This is just one of the many ways in which public safety broadcasting plays out in the public media system around the nation on a regular basis.
• 7:14
  Scott: Yeah, this is going to be difficult. Crystal: Scott: Yeah. And I think one of the things we hear there, you know, is again this idea that somehow any type of of funding cut in Washington equates to deaths out in the country. Um, she's not necessarily wrong about that. Although . . .
• 7:34
  Scott: Yeah, this is going to be difficult. Crystal: Crystal: I just heard the opposite in her argument. She said they hunkered down at the radio station to make sure everyone got the signal. And I was like in the day of age of satellite link, you don't need people hunkering down in in a tsunami zone to put out the message.
• 7:48
  Scott: Well, I disagree with that somewhat. I think there is a role. Um, and in this case, it is sort of interesting. Now, I'll point out I'm not too sure what those stations she's referring to actually are. And that's something we probably want to get into a little later because I think one of the things that's really complicating this is what, what is a public media station. But that being said, I think it's interesting if we look at some other disasters that have happened. So, you had um one of the . . .
• 8:13
  Scott: Crystal: Texas floods. Didn't this
• 8:19
  Kerrville is a good one and the St. Louis, Missouri tornado back in May. Crystal: Okay.
• 8:19
  Kerrville is a good one and the St. Louis, Missouri tornado back in May. Crystal: Scott: Right. Both of those, the initial charge by some of the media was that, well this is all the result of budget cuts out of Washington is why these people weren't warned. But what we've come to now is that these are actually separate issues that the warnings didn't go out because of problems that really had nothing to do with the budget cuts. In the Kerrville case, they apparently have not installed updated warning sirens, right? Um . . .
• 8:43
  Kerrville is a good one and the St. Louis, Missouri tornado back in May. Crystal: Crystal: It made for good news though.
• 8:49
  Kerrville is a good one and the St. Louis, Missouri tornado back in May. Crystal: Well, it's, it's a way to shift the narrative and that's that's probably one of the problems here. Um, but then again, I do think we have to balance it because members of the North Carolina delegation actually came out very strongly in support because apparently a lot of these smaller federally funded radio stations in North Carolina actually played a key role after the floods.
• 9:03
  Kerrville is a good one and the St. Louis, Missouri tornado back in May. Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 9:08
  Scott: Right. So there's an interesting there's an interesting dynamic I think that happens here. My take is that a lot of this is far less catastrophic than it is being made. Crystal: Yeah. Because I think it, it's based on two premises. One, that it's uniquely the rurals who depend on public media. Um, because two, there's nothing else.
• 9:28
  Scott: Crystal: Right.
• 9:35
  Scott: something I think that goes back to the early history. And I'd like to talk a little bit about the history here, here in a few minutes because I think it's fascinating. But one of the arguments was when all this gets started setting up in the 50s and 60s is that these smaller uh markets would not see media because it wasn't it, it wasn't viable commercially. So therefore the government had to step in and support. The problem is I'm not sure that's ever really the case. So you know mentioned during ihis constitution day the station that's covering that is a commercial station.
• 10:05
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah.
• 10:11
  Scott: MP . . . NPR network in Nevada, these aren't independent stations with one exception, right? And that was only set up in 2023 here in Elko, right? So it's barely two years old. But what they are is they're stations where NPR owns the rights, but they simulcast out of either the Reno or Las Vegas markets,
• 10:30
  Crystal: Right. So they're not really, you know, serving the local market. Essentially, it's the same thing everywhere.
• 10:35
  Crystal: Scott: Right.
• 10:41
  Crystal: funding really comes down to how much revenue actually comes from the federal government. And a lot of these local stations get more than 80% of their funding through their own exercise and and fundraising. even here at the Elko station. Um, I know the Humboldt Republican Party purchases a set of ads for the years and that's how they, they get their revenue is by selling those independent things, which it goes to a bigger conversation I wanted to have with you is we . . . we kind of have a difference of opinion of how long should the federal government subsidize an industry before it should be able to stand on its own two feet and raise its own money, which is effectively an indication that the consumer values it and it buys into it. Um, public radio's been funded for 50 years. If you haven't figured out how to self-fund and operate as a business, I mean, you really should be left to wither away if that's the direction it's going to go. If people really love it, they will send in the money and it'll keep going. I think this is the right move. Well,
• 11:39
  Scott: Well, and I think uh . . . I mean, you were comparing it a little earlier to the to like NASA laying the groundwork for and that was the issue I sort of took exception with and now is probably a good time you dig into the history.
• 11:50
  Scott: Crystal: I should flesh that out. So essentially my argument is like the space industry was seeded by the government which means they put the initial upstart got the industry going but effectively NASA it cost them a million dollars a pound to put something into space and then you have a private sector where Elon can get a pound into space for $6,000 a pound. That's the trajectory you want to see when it comes to government investment and subsidies with the exception of farming. They should forever be subsidized. But why do you think that public media is something that should be ongoing?
• 12:21
  Scott: Scott: Well, I don't think it's necessarily something that should be ongoing, but I think there's ... there is one big difference I think with your space program example.
• 12:32
  Scott: Crystal: Okay.
• 12:40
  Scott: What we know of as NPR is a creation in 1971 made possible by the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967, right, and PBS was established. So you at this point what you were seeing is those were set up for industries that were already existing and thriving.
• 12:54
  Scott: Crystal: Okay.
• 13:00
  Scott: an effort to deface . . . or to not deface but not an effort to somehow recoup startup cost.
• 13:06
  Crystal: Right.
• 13:06
  Crystal: Scott: Right. I mean if we would have looked it's astounding . . .
• 13:10
  Crystal: we invest in our children but you know we don't expect to get a return from them. They just go out and be a productive member of society.
• 13:14
  Crystal: Scott: But the argument that comes out of this and I'll add you know we're talking about NPR and this and radio but you know there's also PBS which is a television side and and television's not that new of a technology either. I mean you know by 1928 we have the first sets. Betty White's doing television in in the 1930s, late 1930s right? So it's not it's not something that you know only came about after World War Two although that was the massive expansion.
• 13:41
  Crystal: Crystal: Betty White was the the age of this hairdo.
• 13:46
  Crystal: I like it.
• 13:46
  Crystal: Scott: But anyway, the argument for public media was based on the idea that the type of stuff that needed to be out there either educational, news oriented or reaching small markets. And again, this is where the rurals come in. These were not attractive to big commercial industries seeking to serve a profit.
• 14:09
  Crystal: Crystal: Sure.
• 14:16
  Crystal: marginal cases for the use of this technology to secure public access to it.
• 14:16
  Crystal: Crystal: And essentially it's a communication network which was far more important back when there was no TV, there was no internet, there was no cell phones. It was infrastructurally speaking very important.
• 14:28
  Crystal: Scott: Right.
• 14:34
  Crystal: it lends to my argument in this day and age it's matured out of that out of that space.
• 14:39
  Scott: Well, that's interesting that you mentioned network because we we just heard Katherine Maher talk about this, right? This is about the network they're trying to destroy. This is the infrastructure they're trying to destroy. I don't actually think that was as as an important of a case to the content.
• 14:52
  Scott: Crystal: Okay.
• 14:59
  Scott: you . . . does supporting the network and you're right we do have a built-out infrastructure now for radio but does supporting an infrastructure necessarily mean unquestionably supporting the content and you know internet's a good example of this. I mean many many towns here in rural Nevada have a problem with initially to encourage companies to come in and spend the capital to build the infrastructure. They were granted monopolies. And then once once the infrastructure is in a place, they just collected the fees and walked away, never updated it.
• 15:28
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah.
• 15:32
  Scott: of the the factors that is hampering rural towns much more to the fact it's not that we don't have internet, it's that we can't we can't work with the internet that was put into place 30 years ago
• 15:41
  when we granted the monopoly. Right. Crystal: So I see there there is a bit of an argument of having a publicly funded infrastructure that could because the the problem would become if everything is private media, then there's a bunch of siloing going on and nobody's really interconnected on on one central platform, right? But like you said, that central platform has become slanted and so it isn't in fact a central platform. So it's failing to serve its purpose.
• 16:05
  when we granted the monopoly. Right. Crystal: Scott: And I think that's where, I think that's where the discussion really is going in ... into place now. Does it serve that purpose? And remember that the the Corporation of Public Broadcasting comes out of a series of privately funded initiatives - philanthropy - in the 1950s. In some ways even earlier there was a national education radio network, NERN, that was set up I think by the Kellogg Foundation and then later picked up by the Ford Foundation.
• 16:35
  when we granted the monopoly. Right. Crystal: Crystal: Yes.
• 16:42
  when we granted the monopoly. Right. Crystal: Educational Television Network. And again, the idea behind these is that this is content that wasn't viable for commercial shows to do. So, you know, somebody in Philadelphia, for instance, just bear with me, somebody in Philadelphia, um you know, a local station might have an interest in producing a show that generates ad revenue because that's what they live by. And so given a choice, if you want to attract a younger audience, something along the lines of a Sesame Street or what develops in Philadelphia, Dick Clark's American Bandstand, which starts as a local show, they're going to go to Dick Clark's American Band Stand because there's more revenue.
• 17:15
  when we granted the monopoly. Right. Crystal: Crystal: Yep.
• 17:19
  Scott: So the idea is um this, this public support for public media secures that stuff that's not that's perhaps critically necessary culturally, but is not economically viable.
• 17:27
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah. I wanted to shift a little bit to Nevada itself.
• 17:34
  Scott: Scott: Oh yeah.
• 17:40
  Scott: almost more than 80% of their revenues are raised locally to produce local content. So this argument that these federal dollars somehow . . .
• 17:46
  Scott: Scott: Let's look at that a bit because that's actually a bit of an interesting point in the fact that we have on locally how these cuts are being done. I think we have a cut from a local television broadcast with some people from PBS in Reno talking about the cut.
• 18:02
  Scott: Crystal: This is straight from the horse's mouth here locally what it's actually going to look like on the ground and it does illustrate that funding sources are you know it's not as heavily dependent on federal dollars as Katheryn Maher makes it out to be. [News Clip Begins] Well for KUNR and PBS Reno it roughly will take about 15 to 17% of their total funding. So, while they will get to keep the ship afloat in some capacity, there are some rule stations that rely on it much more. But it will still make it difficult for all of them because the losses will still be somewhat significant. This is a very serious situation and we are beyond disappointed. Local public, TV, and radio stations tell us they are bracing for the impacts of the recission package in Washington DC. That could total about $7 million in federal funding lost across the entire state. PBS Reno says the cuts will account for more than $1 million. Now, that's not a huge portion of our PBS Reno budget. We raise 83% of our annual operating budget from the community. Mische says they will plan to raise more money and feels like they'll be okay, but other organizations will have more leg work to do. And so a number of stations, especially in small communities, rural communities, tribal communities, uh are really going to be in a in a hard spot. [News clip ends]
• 19:20
  Crystal: So, you know, it sounds like most of the radio stations are going to be just fine and there are
• 19:30
  a very small minority of instances where this is really going to hit hard. Scott: Well, and I think I think there's a couple actually missions there. First of all, I agree. Right. So this, in the case was a television station PBS where we're talking about you know 83% of the revenue doesn't, doesn't come from the federal government. They're raising it on their own. They're getting it from other sources. And if we remember before this recission package became real, one of the things we constantly heard for a number of years out of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to theoretically keep Congress from taking too close a look is like, well you know local stations don't get that much funding. It's it's it's it's really not that important. Don't bother wasting your time was the hint. Um but there is a counterargument that's sort of interesting. The Knight Foundation, we'll talk about the Knight Foundation towards the end. They're one of the groups again, private philanthropy, that's coming in this to save these radio stations. In in a talk they gave, uh, their president gave back here in May 2025, she estimated that for every dollar the federal government spends on grants to a local station, that allows that station to go out and raise eight additional dollars.
• 20:37
  a very small minority of instances where this is really going to hit hard. Scott: Crystal: Okay.
• 20:42
  a very small minority of instances where this is really going to hit hard. Scott: about. The question is, is that $1 seed money actually that important?
• 20:42
  a very small minority of instances where this is really going to hit hard. Scott: Crystal: That's a chicken and an egg question.
• 20:48
  a very small minority of instances where this is really going to hit hard. Scott: Scott: Well, and I think that's a real at it from a business model standpoint, if you're able to raise $8 privately and $1 publicly, your business model functions as a private business, right? That's enough revenue to be completely
• 21:05
  wholly functional without any crutch. Scott: Right. Now, you might not be able to do everything you want.
• 21:10
  Crystal: No.
• 21:10
  Crystal: Scott: But you know, it's it is viable. That's a good word. Um, now are there some other stations that might depend on it more? Potentially.
• 21:16
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah. these clips and some of the people that have been talking about this. Um, is, you know, but there's, you know, I know rural stations or tribal stations somewhere that that need this. And it's sort of like, well, where?
• 21:32
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 21:37
  Crystal: is necessarily malfeasance as much as it is and of course go back to the irony of an urban commercial station reporting and talking to an urban public media station about funding cuts in the rurals. So it's like why isn't anybody going out to the rurals? We don't have them. And that's, that's the interesting thing. Most rural radio in Nevada is actually commercial.
• 21:56
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 22:01
  Crystal: the biggest exception to that Radio Goldfields which is broadcasting out of Goldfields. Um, it's a nonprofit, so it's non-commercial radio, right? They probably do receive I . . . they definitely receive some FCC grants, right, to build towers and this type of stuff and and that, but um they don't take a lot of NPR funding, but they're basically the only radio station from Death
• 22:22
  Valley all the way up into central and eastern Nevada. And they're not NPR. Crystal: Yeah.
• 22:22
  Valley all the way up into central and eastern Nevada. And they're not NPR. Crystal: Scott: Right. I don't know if any programming they get comes from NPR. Crystal: Well, I and I think it's a little easy to get lost in some of these narratives surrounding public media, but at the end of the day, excuse me, I really do believe that the question of is it needed a very very important question to ask can be answered by the consumer and it is a bit of an oversimplification. It's my business mind working. But you know, if your NPR funding falls off to the point of critical failure for the radio station and it is really needed, guess what's going to happen? The community is going to rally and raise money and fund it. Now, if they don't rally and raise money and fund it, I'm sorry to say the question you're or the answer to your question is it was not needed.
• 23:07
  Valley all the way up into central and eastern Nevada. And they're not NPR. Crystal: Scott: Right. Well, and and again, this gets back, I think, to this argument about the economic viability on stuff. Um and and again, I'm not saying there's an absolute truth to this. I think it's interesting to point out one of the things that everybody's seen in this is like, well, if it wasn't for the Corporation of Public Broadcasting, we wouldn't have Mr. Rogers. What we forget is Fred Rogers was broadcasting - incidentally out of Philadelphia - right before the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, right? In fact, he, if I remember right, he testified in Congress in support of that bill. His show already existed, right? Now, it was funded through private fundraising. No, you know, wasn't commercially viable in that sense, but it is it is an example here of something that pre-exists this massive government agency that we've now put together.
• 23:56
  Valley all the way up into central and eastern Nevada. And they're not NPR. Crystal: Crystal: Well, and I think they've have narratives being pitted against each other that aren't appropriate to pit against each other. I think there was a very valid place for NPR and for public media and PBS and it did seed things like Mr. Rogers, Sesame Street and it it did like publicly funding it and generating all that content was a wonderful thing to do. The ideas got seated into our economy and our marketplace. So again, I come back to if these ideas want to be flourished, they should be supported by the end consumer at this point,
• 24:28
  Scott: Right.
• 24:28
  Scott: Crystal: So it's like yes, it did serve all and that brings it up because some of the stuff you pointed out is um um you know, we'll use Well, if I can do two examples. One is Sesame Street.
• 24:39
  Scott: Crystal: And we're going to talk about Tickle Me Elmo Tickle Me Elmo.
• 24:43
  Scott: Crystal: Somehow that comes up a lot. Sesame Street is widely considered to be one of the success stories of American public media so far that that you know if you remember when we did the DOGE episode, right, the Sesame Street in Iraq was a focal point for the USAID right? But more importantly the the nonprofit that was set up to produce Sesame Street - because PBS this is one of the big distinctions PBS which is the television arm NPR is the radio arm, PBS actually doesn't produce its own shows.
• 25:06
  Scott: Crystal: Right.
• 25:13
  Scott: local stations or like the BBC or or increasingly other foreign media um um enterprises to bring in programming.
• 25:20
  Scott: Crystal: No, NPR spends their money producing their own their own content and then PBS hands out money to already produced content that they'd like to license.
• 25:26
  Scott: Scott: Like they'd like the license. Now, you know, that can still be a biased choice. No doubt about that. But Sesame Street itself, you know, that corp . . . what used to be Children's Television Workshop under Jim Henson is now known as the Sesame Workshop. That is a massive corporation, right? They seem to bring in somewhere on the order of $120 million in revenue a year and the . . .
• 25:48
  Scott: Crystal: Branding and licensing deals off the characters produced by publicly funded programs.
• 25:54
  Scott: Scott: Well, that becomes a little less. The revenue would include grants and but that 20 million for Tickle Me Elmo, right? I mean, that's that's a a significant market, right? And the idea that somehow they need this federal fund to support an enterprise that's already bringing in $120 million a year in revenue is sort of is sort of a fascinating dynamic.
• 26:11
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah. No, it was time for it to go.
• 26:18
  Scott: Scott: Right. My second example is actually back to those BBC shows cuz you know we've all watched the PBS funding, right? If you want to keep seeing your BBC sitcoms or dramas, you know, you need to give to us. That's the hard sale. Well, in in some ways, the BBC in particular, or at least their their licensing arm, in part has been raking American public broadcasting over the coals for years. Those things are expensive. Um, I'm a Doctor Who fan and and the the BBC has set it up where basically the Doctor Who I grew up with, the Doctor Who from the ' 60s, '70s, and 80s, you almost can't afford except to watch it in the United States on PBS. I mean, even even when they sell DVDs, they're so outrageously priced compared to everything else. So, you've got that dynamic where, you know, in some ways, um, should those BBC shows be available elsewhere? Well, we're starting to see some streaming efforts, Brit Box, Acorn TV, that type of stuff. Whether they're viable, who knows? The streaming market's still in flux right now.
• 27:19
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah. Right. But, you know, again, this is an example with the streaming market coming out. Do you need public media to provide that?
• 27:30
  Scott: Crystal: Well, again, there's this you got to look at it from two points of view. If it is indeed that central infrastructure where we can all meet in a nonpartisan square, then yes, it would be worth funding. But at this point, it's it's a town square that's only welcome to liberals. And at that point, it you lose your justification for taking tax dollars for it. That's that's a private organization at that point serving their own interests, Right? And this is that Uri Berliner article. He was a NPR business editor who I think it was last December publishes that article in the Free Press that just excoriates.
• 28:01
  Scott: Crystal: And they got fired by them. Yeah. Got fired by him or got hired by Free Press after NPR let him go or forced him out. Um . . .
• 28:12
  Crystal: But they insist they don't have a political slant even though the top NPR Nation group of 92 people are all registered Democrats. They insist that they're fair and unbiased. You and I have both been NPR and BBC and you know we've been consuming their I have for 20 years probably longer and I remember with great nostalgia some of the shows I I loved the content. I still listen to listen to "Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me" every Sunday but even the politics have crept in there and at this point I just check in on these NPR programs just to hear if they're still politically slanted and they're still there every single, they've gotten better since the elimination of the funding but pretty much the last 5 years the only reason I've listened to their content is to see if they're still as bad as they've become.
• 29:00
  Scott: Well I would go further that it's not just the liberal content. One of the things that also pops up into this is that those those radio stations or television stations die and you lose local news. I think one of the problems public media has developed is it's urban content.
• 29:12
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah. Which which problematizes. So again, a lot of the NPR quote unquote stations in Nevada and there's about five or six in places like Panaca, Lund, and if you and if you're watching and and trying to figure out where I'm talking about, you see the problem, right? But all those stations do is rebroadcast what's out of Vegas, right? They're simulcast. They're not It's not like they have their own staffs on the ground. Now, there are some that do. No doubt about that. But, you know . . .
• 29:42
  Crystal: But their argument that they that rural radio stations will suffer the most because they're not able to produce that local content is is absurd just because it is it's the same content everywhere. So, it's not right. It's not tailored to the local area.
• 29:51
  Crystal: Scott: Right. And going back, you know, the irony where it's it's an urban commercial station talking to an urban public media station on what's happening in the rurals and nobody talks to a rural radio station.
• 30:00
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 30:04
  Scott: That's that's I think where this this dynamic is interesting.
• 30:04
  Scott: Crystal: Well, and it's just, you know, I to really illustrate what we're talking about in case like I don't know how many people actually listen to NPR news anymore, but what it just became this game of like listening to them report a news story that I'd heard reported in so many other places and just waiting for the moment that they blame it on Trump.
• 30:25
  Scott: Scott: Right, well.
• 30:30
  Scott: or global warming's fault. And it just became so disingenuous and stifling to me as a listener. And it it it broke my heart because I wanted to keep loving it the way I loved it in my teens and 20s. And it's just like I want that back. I would be happy to pay for it if you went, you know, let's go 20 years back and how we used to do this. Scott: Well, and disingenuousness is sort of interesting because . . .
• 30:51
  Crystal: Everything like this is good. People will die everything. It's like Trump's fault and people will die. I'm like good God.
• 30:57
  Crystal: Scott: Well, let's let's take that because Katherine Maher in some of her other interviews and you know it was her job to save the Corporation of Public Broadcasting. So, she should have been doing those interviews.
• 31:06
  Crystal: Crystal: Sure. only about 25% of the content on these radio stations supported by the Corporation of Public Broadcasting is NPR, right? The rest of it local oriented or coming from other sources, right? And there's probably something to that. Um, and PBS is somewhat similar. The question is what that 25% of the content is.
• 31:30
  Crystal: Crystal: That's exactly what went through my head when I heard that. She made it, she was making it sound like we're only 25% of the content. How could we possibly be overwriting the entire, you know. Like it's, like it's No, that 25% is basically state-sanctioned propaganda. In my opinion.
• 31:47
  Crystal: Scott: Well, but . . .
• 31:53
  Crystal: of news told from a certain perspective and the rest of the programming they do is like . . .
• 31:53
  Crystal: Crystal: Local stories.
• 31:58
  Crystal: Scott: Well, if it even is local stories. How much of the other content that these local radio stations are buying are sort of nationally syndicated music shows? Or they're running the high school football game on Friday nights. You know, that type of stuff. I'm not saying it's not important, but if the news that they claim and the is the educational content that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is providing via public media to these local areas, we got a different story than if that 25% of the of the content was 10% news and 15% of of you know the the philharmonic orchestra somewhere.
• 32:31
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Scott: I suspect on these rural repeaters the 25% of the content is the news content which is the problematic stuff.
• 32:42
  Scott: Crystal: Well, yeah. And that I mean you have a 40-minute program and then you have 15 minutes of the NPR sponsored news and then you have another 40-minute program and then so basically the listener hears these episodes that are usually great content but the only news you're hearing is the completely slanted news. It gives this illusion that reinforces it every hour or so, but it is it's less than 25% of the content, Right.
• 33:08
  Scott: Crystal: But the psychological effect and the way it's spaced has a very strategic effect.
• 33:13
  Crystal: It just Scott: Yeah. And that and that I think is partially where we're at on this is that in some ways and as much as I've argued against you to make a good podcast, I think public media in its current form is probably an experiment whose time has ended right now. Is it going to die? No. We've already seeing I mentioned the Knight Foundation earlier. The Knight Foundation stepping up about 50 million to save the most pressed radio stations. Tribal areas, interestingly, are probably going to be the hardest hit. But um you know, there's also a lot of tribal areas that have commercial stations as well, right? Um and in fact, it's one of my favorite things driving across the Navajo reservation is listening to the Navajo commercial station, right? It's a lot of fun. What kind of is it just like a typical radio station, same type of content?
• 33:57
  Crystal: Scott: Yeah.
• 34:02
  Crystal: well, you know, how important is it to the native communities?
• 34:02
  Crystal: Scott: I think it's huge there.
• 34:06
  Crystal: spend a lot of time with the native communities. I have no idea of how to understand what their radio station means to them.
• 34:11
  Crystal: Scott: It, it sort of depends. So, um that we haven't really talked about before. So that Navajo station, I can't remember the call numbers, but it again that that Navajo Nation is, is fairly, you know, we're talking Grand Canyon to northern New Mexico, right? So it's a fairly isolated area. That radio station is vital, but it is cost . . . broadcast in the Navajo language. Crystal: Oh.
• 34:38
  Crystal: some you'll hear some news programming, right? Um, a lot of the music, they'll have a variety of music because that's typical in rural areas. You can't just, you know, you can't just program one genre, right? You you'll have various shows. Um, so they'll have a lot more like uh, you know, um, the music you'll hear at pow-wows and whatnot. That's right. Which is interesting. But you'll hear the ads.
• 35:00
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 35:03
  Crystal: they're legitimate ads. And I don't speak Navajo, but it's so funny how you can hear the cadence when somebody gives a phone number. Crystal: Yeah.
• 35:13
  Crystal: English. You're like, "Oh, they're giving a phone number" and they could be talking about pizza. They could be talking about, you know, it could be a safety issue. Who knows? Um.
• 35:16
  Crystal: Crystal: I'm actually a very big proponent of giving federal money to tribes to to resurrect and maintain their languages. I think it would be it's it's a tragedy to lose a language because it's it's more than just another language. It it captures a certain brain that you know and language really represents something that could be lost and in this day and age everybody's trying to be the same. And I think those languages preserve pieces of culture that we don't want to lose.
• 35:48
  Crystal: Scott: But see that's exactly . . .
• 35:51
  Crystal: cultural heritage grant not a public media grant.
• 35:51
  Crystal: Scott: Well.
• 35:56
  Crystal: towards. I was like I love this idea but actually those radio stations should be getting cultural heritage grants. Um, good for them for keeping it up there because you lose a language if you don't speak the language.
• 36:05
  Crystal: Scott: And something that shows up. So, uh, Duck Valley does have a small radio station up there. It doesn't have a big range. If you've ever seen "Smoke Signals," which is one of the the the first big sort of native-oriented films to really break across the barrier, you know, the the dynamic at the local radio station there on the rez broadcasting. Um, which actually gets us to to an issue, right? Um, it it's told as a joke in "Smoke Signals." This is really great about bringing the native it's told as a joke, but it's basically a guy that's sitting in his camper and he sits on top and and provides this commentary. Um, but what's so fascinating about that is you brought up the issue of podcasting earlier.
• 36:43
  Crystal: Crystal: Yeah.
• 36:49
  Crystal: an interesting dynamic because again, as I pointed out, public media, right, comes out of the time that radio in particular has already existed for 40 years. And early radio, very much like early podcasting now, was incredibly cheap to get into. Crystal: Yeah.
• 37:08
  Crystal: and I had a lot of friends that studied this in graduate school because we we had a I went to Emory, Georgia Tech had a big graduate program . . .
• 37:13
  Crystal: Crystal: And radio waves that's not complicated technology.
• 37:18
  Scott: It's not complicated technology. It's relatively easy to build your own set but I had a number of friends who were you know as part of their research were studying the south is just overwhelmed. Every two-bit church is going out and buying a a 5,000 watt transmitter and broadcasting on Sundays, right? Uh my university, I went to Olgethorpe University, back in the 30s actually sparked what what our president at the time Thornwell Jacobs called the University of the Air offering college courses over the radio right. This was a huge effervescence and a lot of that was supported either by commercial activity or more often philanthropic activity from foundations like the Kellogg Foundation, by the 50s the Ford Foundation's a major player, now we have the Knight Foundation stepping in to rescue these. What's interesting about that is I see this trajectory that radio comes out with a new technology proves itself its mature form if we can say in the 50s people start having problems with because it's not as open it's it's not as able to cover topics right so that increases the the push for public support which is where Corporation for Public Broadcasting is. Now we're we're losing that public support maybe it should be allowed to wither on the vine in your expression, but um Crystal: No, that was the the correct step is you got a chaotic market and the government stepped in and straightened it out with those subsidies and helped streamline it and regulate it. Um but to my podcast point, it's, you know, we have a whole bunch of media now being produced privately without money, so it can survive on its own.
• 38:57
  Scott: But my argument is that might not last long.
• 38:57
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah. We could always bring. Well, I think podcasting to me in some ways podcasting is looking a bit like radio was in the 20s and 30s, right? It's wide open field. It's not that expensive to get into. It's a headache to promote yourself. But, you know, um but but look at this. Can we see a situation 10 years down the road where podcasts like this that are focused on rural areas are considered to be too small market for some place like YouTube to continue to give us, you know, uh server space to stream a channel.
• 39:28
  Scott: Crystal: Sure.
• 39:33
  Scott: where the 775 has to be rescued by a public media grant? I mean, it's a fascinating, you know, speculative - I would vote against us falling into that trap, but it is a speculative Crystal: Well, Comparison.
• 39:45
  Scott: Crystal: I want to ask you a question. I'll answer it for myself, though. Uh, first, how much of your news do you get from local radio stations? And the answer for me is none. What is it for you? Um, yeah. I'd say, I'd say it's almost none as well.
• 39:56
  Scott: Crystal: Yeah.
• 40:01
  Scott: local paper, which is a whole another story.
• 40:01
  Scott: Crystal: As I was saying, it's a little easy to get lost in the narrative this of this discussion, but at the end of the day, how much of your news do you really get from a radio station?
• 40:10
  Scott: Scott: Well, let's back up.
• 40:14
  Scott: news?
• 40:14
  Scott: Crystal: Because I'm just thinking most people around here, most people where I'm from, they do a ton of internet Google searching when they want to get into a news story. They're not really dependent on radio telling them what's going on. So, it's just I mean we've moved past that point of the market.
• 40:29
  Scott: Scott: Well, it depends on what you mean by news cuz I I do think there is a way. So, around here, one of the things we have we have multiple stations. Um, and a couple of them are actually doing these sort of local interest shows. And I've gone a number of them talking about community development or or promoting various projects or uh uh stuff I've done publicly. And I think that's actually vitally important. That's the type of stuff that public media was set up to encourage. But the channels doing this are the commercial channels, right? They have an obligation to the FCC to have some local content, but they're doing it because they know people have an interest in this stuff, which goes back to your point.
• 41:08
  Scott: Crystal: And I like that we're kind of wrapping this up on that middle of the road narrative because it's, you know, it did serve a point at in the beginning. And if it were still serving that central town square, um I I would be happy to keep paying for it. But the problem was that it wasn't a central town square for anymore. So it's one of those yes and no things. Yes, it is vitally important if it is implemented the way it's supposed to theoretically and it wasn't. And you know the DOGE cut is not forever. I mean if we find in 10 years that we want it back, we can always bring it back.
• 41:41
  Scott: Scott: Well, but it would . . .
• 41:47
  Scott: shake that industry because it has gone so off course. We're like we'll give them a shake up, let them reorient themselves and let's see what's left and that should prune back a lot of the BS and and maybe maybe for lack of a better term.
• 41:56
  Scott: Scott: Right. Maybe you don't need a centralized agency that's handing out the money and funding stuff. So, it's it's going to be an issue, but it's it's certainly one I think again going back to our original argument where the rurals are sort of being used for an argument that's largely an urban argument.
• 42:09
  Scott: Crystal: I think they just got a little big for their britches and they they need to take some some cuts.
• 42:15
  Scott: Scott: So, well, if you got some thoughts on this, go ahead and reach out to us. Send us an email at info@775alive.com. I'm Scott Gavorsky.
• 42:23
  Scott: Crystal: I'm Crystal Newton.