Latest / Normally / Normally Podcast: Charlie Kirk Murder Trial Moves Forward as Conspiracy Theories Spiral

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Normally Podcast: Charlie Kirk Murder Trial Moves Forward as Conspiracy Theories Spiral · Normally

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Hey guys, we are back on Normally, the show with
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: normal-ish takes for when the news gets weird. I'm Mary
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Katherine Hamm.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: I'm Carol Markowitz. How are you, Mary Katherine?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Is it Friday? It feels like it should be, man.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: It feels like it should be like Saturday. This week
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: is really taking its toll.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like, well, you can check in with
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: me in a month. I feel like when your kid starts,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: especially middle school, it's a big jump with the changing
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: classes and organizing all this information. I don't particularly have
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: those skills either, so I sympathize with my children. and
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I do feel like I'm doing some helicoptering for a
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: month to see if we can get a nice launch
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: and some habits built, and then I can stop doing that.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: In your experience, is this something that could happen? Yes,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: it is.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Is it your second one who's in middle school?
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: No, my first one is doing her first class switching
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: this year. Oh, okay, I see.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: So, right, my middle one and your first one are
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: the same age. That's why I thought that she was already...
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: doing the class switching, I think they figure it out
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: much faster than they would if we asked them to
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: figure something out.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Like it's just sink or swim. You've got peers around.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: You have to do it. Totally. Yeah.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Over here, though, we're in like the second week of
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: school and my youngest has been sick for the second time,
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: like home sick for the second time.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: It's... kind of unbelievable.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: And I, at this, you know, when, when this happens,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: when your kid is homesick for the second time in
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: two weeks of school, you're like the homeschoolers, they're really
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: onto something.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I know. I mean, it is, it is a thing. Uh,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: my youngest also had a cough and I'm unsure where
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: we are in the post COVID world where it's like
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: a cough is like, if you, if you keep your
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: kid out of school for sniffles as a three to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: seven year old, they're never going to school.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Um, but you know, I don't know where everyone is
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: on that. Yeah.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: No, the kids have runny noses all the time. There's
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: no way to do that. But he had a fever
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: yesterday and I had to pick him up and that
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: was for real. But yeah, I don't know. That's another
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: kind of side note. Whooping cough is going around and
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: everybody I know who has contracted it is vaccinated. So
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: We'll wait for that to become a national story.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: See, now I feel like I've had four children. I
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm bionic on whooping cough at this point.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: I've been vaccinated every time. I should be studied at
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: this point with the amount of antibodies I have. That's right.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: If you don't know, they suggest you get vaccinated for
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: that during your pregnancy.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. Yes.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, let's get into it.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Yesterday, a judge in Utah ruled that prosecutors have cleared
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: the evidentiary bar to proceed to trial in the Charlie
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Kirk murder trial. And it's a big deal because Tyler
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Robinson has been found.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: It's that there is enough evidence to try him.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: And the bigger part is that the death penalty remains
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: on the table. And, you know, I was kind of
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: I'm not a lawyer, so I was kind of confused.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: He has pled not guilty, but the defense is still
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: making the argument that. he only meant to shoot Charlie
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Kirk and therefore death penalty should not be on the table.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: It's the question is, you know, do you put other
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: people in danger and that's where death penalty would be applicable.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: So it's confusing to me.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: And I know that lawyers listening to this can, can
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: explain it better than I can, but apparently you can
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: say not guilty while still making the alternative argument that
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: If he shot Charlie Kirk, he only meant to shoot
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk and it wasn't harmful to the rest of
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: the people that were there.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a tough argument to make. Extremely good shot
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: on every occasion, always. Right, right. So they plead not guilty.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Generally not considered a safe shot. thing to do. That's right.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: So the argument is basically we.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Plead not guilty.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: And even if the evidence suggests that our client deliberately
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: killed the victim, the prosecution hasn't proved that he endangered
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: other people. And that's where we are after this hearing.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Gotcha. By the way, I do feel like some some
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: of this for the normies should just be an alert
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: that like, by the way, all of the insanity of
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: this discussion over this tragic, horrific crime has just been
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: preliminary to a trial.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So buckle in everyone. I, I do think as we
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: come up on the one year anniversary one, of course
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: we always pray for his family and friends because it's
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: going to be very painful as this is a going
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: on and you're experiencing the first anniversary. It has been
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: sad and demoralizing to watch the fight over this becomes
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: so bizarre, riddled with conspiracy theories and hatred. When in
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: the week after Charlie's death, it really did feel like, oh,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: you know, we're under attack. There's a unity in this.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: We want to rise above this. We want to embrace
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: faith and be together. And then it just became something
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: very different, as I call it, the personality disorder economy,
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: which is a strong part of the online economy. Absolutely.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: I think my first tell that this wasn't going to
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: remain something that unites the right was Tucker Carlson and
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: the homeless eater comment at the service. I think that
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: was really the, hmm, these people are bananas. And I
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: didn't think that Candace Owens was going to basically blame
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: Erica Kirk for Charlie's murder. That still seemed a little far-fetched.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: But we were heading in the direction where the uniting
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: that happened wasn't going to be sustained. And it was really,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: really unfortunate. There is a lot of craziness around this.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: And I've seen some, what I call normies fall into
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: this trap of listening to the Candace's theories. And this
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: is just, I think she is, a poisonous, unwell person
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: who nevertheless speaks very well. And there's all these videos
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: of her mispronouncing words. So that's not what I mean.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: But she's got an interesting kind of way of talking.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: And I think people fall into it and believe what
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: she's saying.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: And she's a really, really.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Unreliable person to believe. And I think that people who
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: are following this case and they end up believing things
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: like You know, I've seen it. I've seen it from
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: normies where they're like, bullets don't do that in a neck.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, you know nothing about bullets. Like, this
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: is the first time in, you know, our history that
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I've even heard you mention a bullet or shooting. And
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: now you know what a bullet does when it hits
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: a body. Like, so... I think people should really be
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: careful of not falling into these traps. And if you
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: have somebody in your life who has fallen into this trap,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: I really think you have to try your best to
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: get them out of it. Buck Sexton, who, you know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: we're on the Buck and Clay podcast network. He was
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: on my show and he was talking about people who
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: get into a mind virus.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: And they really.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: they are brainwashed to believe insane stuff. And the thing
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: that he says, if you have somebody in your life
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: like that, what you need to say to them to
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: start the conversation is, is there anything that you could
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: hear that would make you not believe what you believe
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: right now? And if there's not, I hate to say
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: it's a lost cause, but if there is, you have
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: to kind of present them with that evidence and hope
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: to move them along. Yeah.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: I would also suggest that there's a debate to be
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: had about why people are so into true crime, why
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: it's so fascinating, particularly to female demographics in our modern society.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I enjoy it myself sometimes, but I would also say
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: when you're consuming someone else's life that's happening in real time.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: As a soap opera or as a podcast serial with
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Candace as your guide or whomever else you you have
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: chosen to go down that path with. There are real
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: people going through that in the moment and there are
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: always real people involved in true crime and there's ethical
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: concerns about that. But I would just suggest there's much
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: more responsible true crime people. products that you consume, whether
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: they are podcasts that are responsibly reported or like just
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: in cold blood by Truman Capote in the garden, midnight
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: in the garden of good and evil. There are there
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: are good things that you can consume.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Sort of satisfy your interest in this without playing out
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: someone else's horrific life changing tragedy online 24 seven. Right.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: And also makes that look into evidence, for example, making
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: it such a part of who you are. Like that's
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: part of the, once you get into these ideas, your
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: need to hold on to the idea that they're correct
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: is becomes like this cycle that you can't get out
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: of instead of just listening to the fact that, well,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: she didn't actually produce receipts. She says she's going to
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: produce and never does. Right, right. She's just like dot, dot, dot.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Not so much connect the dot as she is ellipses.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Like, hmm. A thunderstorm, a monsoon of possibilities and accusations
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: does not receipts make. Right, exactly.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Egyptian planes, the French government involved, I mean, she's thrown
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of things at this. And None of them
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: have proven out at all. And when when questioned about it,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: she says things like, I can believe whatever I want
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: to believe. Well, yeah, you can, but it's stupid and
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: it makes no sense.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Particularly in court. When she's confronted with things, she's like, well,
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, all this is just entertainment and I'm just
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: do it. It's not like I believe that it's the truth.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that the people who listen
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: to Candace, a lot of them have crossover audiences with
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: the Tate brothers who are currently arguing that all of
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: their wealth was just a mirage that it wasn't everybody
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: understood that they didn't actually have that many cars and
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: they didn't really live that lavish lifestyle. And it was
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: all for show. And I'm just wondering if you're one
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: of the people who listen to them or watch them.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: And I don't feel like we have a lot of
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: crossover audience with the Tate. So, um, but, How do
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: you feel about that? How do you feel about the
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: fact that they fully lied to you and you were
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: apparently supposed to be in on it. Cause I feel
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: like a lot of people were not actually in on it.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: No, I think a lot of people aren't in on
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of the influencer life, if
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: that's the path you decide to take, and I'm a
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: form of it myself, I morphed into this new media
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: space from traditional media. But a lot of the lifestyle
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: type folks are really just running a scam and they're, they're,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: They're renting all these things. They're taking pictures in other
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: people's private jets that are parked somewhere. And then they go,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: you know, then they go take a regular commercial flight.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of this you have to interrogate
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: and be careful with the information you're taking in.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: And I also just add that actual very rich people
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: try to downplay how wealthy they are. They don't show
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: you the private jet every time they're on it. And
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: they're much more likely to show you when they're in
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: a commercial airport having the same struggles you're having because
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: they want to be more relatable.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: So take that, you know, take that for what it is.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: That's why I authentically wear this like 2018 Fabletics tank
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: top so that you guys won't see my true prosperity.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: That's right. That's right.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: All right. We're going to take a short break and
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: be right back with more on Normally. We are back
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: on Normally, where yesterday incumbent Ed Markey beat Seth Moulton
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: in the Massachusetts Democrat Senate primary. You might remember Moulton
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: from having a brief moment of bravery after the 2024 election,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: where he said that boys shouldn't play in girls' sports,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: quickly reversed himself after protesters said came, I believe, to
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: his house, certainly to his office.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: They were very.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Adamant that he could not hold the very standard beliefs
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: that most Americans hold. And he ended up walking that back.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Moulton's a six-term congressman, and he was famously one of
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: the first House Democrats to call for Joe Biden to
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: end his reelection bid. So it's, you know, he has
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: his moments where he's brave and then not, but defeated
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: by Marky, who his famous moment on the campaign trail
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: was seemingly not knowing anything about AI at all. Yes.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: We've got to have him lead us into the future.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I think this is an interesting race because it reveals
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: two things that people of Markey's generation are not going
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: to be passing the torch. No, they're not. Voluntarily. And
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: that Moulton, who I think did show promise in that
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: brief moment when he spoke up and said, yeah, I mean,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: this is like a pretty rational thing that a lot
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: of people believe. And I don't I don't see why
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't worry about it for my daughters. Like, why
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: should that be a concern of mine? And they immediately
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: backed off of it. And this is why a lot
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: of lefties say, well, why are you guys making it
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: such a big deal out of trans athletes? There's only
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: a handful of them. Well, first of all, they underestimate
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: how many there are that have taken awards and spots
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: from female athletes.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: How many people are affected by that?
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Right. But the reason it's a big deal is because
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: it is a tell for whether that party can normalize
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: in any fashion. Right. It is the easiest thing to
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: moderate on. Seth Moulton did so. And it was he
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: was done within months. And I think that probably was
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: the signal that he was never going to make it
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: through this primary from that moment. Now, had he led
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: bravely on that issue, maybe it would have attracted people
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: to him. I don't know. But have the beliefs you have.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Right. The problem is getting out of a Democratic primary.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: And it's funny because a lot of the time the
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: younger candidate is the further left one. In this case,
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Markey actually got the endorsements of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, AOC,
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Ayanna Pressley, and Zoran Mondani. So It was going to
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: be a tough road for Moulton in the primary in
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: any case. But again, he walked back his only kind
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: of brave stance where he broke with the far left. And,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: you know, that wasn't going to do anything for him.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: By the way, the most recent Pew Research Center polling
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: on this, 27 percent of American adults are somewhat very
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: or extremely comfortable with the sports, trans athletes in sports
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: and women's sports. Seventy three percent not comfortable with it. Democrats, 55, 44,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: not comfortable with it. So like. You can make this
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: argument forcefully and probably do OK, but you do have
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: to actually lead on it to do that and be brave.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: By the way, the comments to that Pew Research poll
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: tweet are just filled with Democrats upset that they made
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: this a huge deal and now it doesn't work for them. Right.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Right. In other news, James Tallarico, there's an old clip
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: of him posted by K-File where he called basically conflated
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: capitalism with white supremacy. And he said that oil would
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: not last in Texas and compared it to cassette tapes.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because he now, of course, is saying, oh,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: he said he told the Sorry. It's interesting because the
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: campaign now tells CNN his quote unquote cringy past comments
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: missed the mark. And of course, he's a capitalist who
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: supports oil and gas. But, you know, he spoke to
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: this climate group and he said the opposite. And again,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: this isn't years and decades ago. This is 2020 and
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: they can call it World One. But we're going to
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: need some more information about that. how this happens, how
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: you go from dismantling capitalism and grouping it with white
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: supremacy and tying it to climate change to saying that,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: of course, you support capitalism and.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: You love oil and gas. How does that happen? Well, yeah,
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: there's no arc. He doesn't explain the change. And this
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: is what they all want to do.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: They all want to laugh it off, never explain the
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: change and just go like, obviously, I don't believe that.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Here's the problem. Kamala Harris tried that.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Harris assured us that she didn't believe those crazy things
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: she said three years ago. And people did not believe that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: And people didn't believe that because it's not believable. Right.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: It's not believable from Tallarico. Everyone knows that this man
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: who got out of a Democratic primary and who was
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: rising in the ranks of Democratic politics from 2020 to 2023.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: doesn't think capitalism is awesome. He simply doesn't. He's not
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: a proud capitalist. If he had been a proud capitalist,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: he wouldn't have argued that you should dismantle capitalism. These
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: are just opposites. They're opposite things. Right.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: So capitalism's kind of having a tough moment where the
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: left has obviously become super anti-capitalist, but even some elements
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: of the right are getting into the capitalism's not so
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: great mentality. Which made Camille Foster on CNN defending capitalism,
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: this viral clip. I mean, I'm not saying he's not
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: saying anything groundbreaking. He is just arguing pro-capitalist points and
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: how it makes all of our lives better. And he's
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: doing that pretty ably. Let's roll that clip.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: It's one thing to not think capitalism isn't working ideally.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: It's another thing entirely to insist that it is oppressive,
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: that it is bound up with white supremacy.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: I've always preferred Adam Smith's.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: Description of capitalism. capitalism as the natural system of liberty,
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: the idea that people can own property, that they can
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: exchange it freely with one another for profit, that they
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: can find ways to put their resources to good use,
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: those private property, and profit in a way that is
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: actually beneficial to everyone else, that there can be gains
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: from trade that are mutually beneficial. These are foundational ideas
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: that have created more wealth than any other system in
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: human history. That is what capitalism is.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: That is not white supremacy. Do you think capitalism has
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: always work that way?
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: I've just described the actual, I've actually just described the
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: basic facts. Slavery is an institution that is older than writing.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: It predates capitalism.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: The notion that white supremacy and all these other things
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: are bound up with capitalism in an intrinsic and fundamental
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: way is so absurd and laughable that.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: It barely needs to be defended.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: What do you mean it barely needs to be defended?
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: It barely needs to be defended.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: You actually have to articulate what the connection is.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: How are these two things the same?
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: I'm talking about private property, the right to exchange and
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: sell it with.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Whomever you like.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: But you're talking about capitalism.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: What does that have to do with white supremacy? It
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: was intended to work versus how it's actually working.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: It's not how it's working right now today.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: What is the white supremacist dynamic of private property?
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: It's not working.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I think that's the problem.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: What is her argument? Yes, it is white supremacy. But
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: like he's like, how? And she doesn't say anything. She
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: doesn't say she doesn't have an answer for that at all.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I think Jamil Hill is a woman who is a
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: writer for The Atlantic, a high level publication, intellectual publication.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: She has years of TV experience. And he says, you
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: actually have to articulate the connection. And she is flummoxed
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: because in the circles that she is in the bubble of,
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: you don't have to. You invoke the magical words and
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: then everyone nods on the panel. And then we all
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: move on with our lives, right? Camille is making a
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: powerful and true, and for those of us who understand economics,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: simple argument that capitalism is the system, although imperfect, that
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: has brought the most prosperity to the most people over
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: all sorts of socioeconomic and intellectual capabilities and boundaries and borders.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Of any that's ever existed. And in fact, it's kind
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: of nice that you make money in a capitalist system
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: by serving your fellow citizens with something they'd like to purchase.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: And they're all just like, huh? Oh, yeah. I appreciate him.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: We appreciate him. Yeah, we do. Also on the subject.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Can I make one more point?
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I love that this clip and the clips of Emma Camp,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: who works for the Wall Street Journal, has worked for
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Reason in the past, was a UVA student who wrote
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: about the intellectual conformity on her campus in the New
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: York Times years ago and became quite notable after that.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: But she's putting out videos about the incredible prosperity that
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: exists under capitalism and just giving people these basic, facts
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: and foundations as well. And those are going viral. And
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I just love that there is an audience for this. Yeah,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: she's great.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: As I tweeted at her a few days ago, I
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: just wanted her to remember that I asked her to
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: come on my show before.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Her meteoric rise. She's been really great.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: We also have our good buddy Abdul El-Sayed. He says
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the American dream is better achieved in Canada. This is
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: from a podcast of his from a few years ago.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, again, not that long ago, May 2023 episode
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: of his podcast, America Dissected, where he says that contrary
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: to what we're taught, that we are the land of
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: opportunity where anyone with a dollar and a dream can
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: make it. In fact, two people have that first dollar.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: Economic data shows us that if you want to achieve
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: the American dream, well, you should move to Canada because
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: it's twice as likely there.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just not true.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: If you want to look at the statistics, especially if
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: you're going by GDP per person, Canada would be the
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: 50th poorest state in the United States if it were
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: a U.S. state. Canada GDP per capita is fifty five
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars in the US. It's now ninety thousand dollars.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: And this is from World Bank figures for twenty twenty five.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: This isn't from some right wing podcast. Just this idea
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: that you can achieve the American dream better in Canada.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Is just an absurd idea.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: That you could only come up with that if you
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: feel negative feelings about America. And that's it.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, he was but a child of
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: 38 when he said that. And it is useful that
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: all these guys just said all this stuff on tape
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: all over the place for many years. We appreciate that
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: very much. The voters should hear it. He is wrong.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: And it also is fair to think a person who
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: thinks this wrong thing reflexively and tells people about it
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: on a podcast and is sure he's correct about where
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the American dream exists and it's not America might be
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: less patriotic than I am. I think he likes America
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: less than I do. I think that's real. Yeah. They
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: act like you can never say that. That was the
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: that was the right. And you can't say I don't
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: love America, even though I say I hate America. Like
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: all the time.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: All the time.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And then for our last election note, the Democrat running
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: against Max Miller released his first ad. It's with his
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: daughters and it's very good. It's Brian Poindexter for Congress
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: in Ohio's 7th District. It's just, it's a family-orientated ad,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: and it really makes the comparison with Max Miller something.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: He's been goofed on by his high school or middle
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: school-aged daughters. That's always a good template for an ad.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: I did see that the Free Beacon is digging up
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: some of his past incidents, including perhaps a.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Intoxicated encounter at a baseball game. So we'll see more
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: about him than just the ad. You know, Miller should
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: have taken himself out of this process and given Republicans
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: a chance. And now Poindexter is going to run what
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: looks like an appealing campaign.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: He really should have.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break and be right
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: back with more on Norma Lee.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: All right. We're back on normally with a little bit
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: of news on the coming college bust. The higher education
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: folks who we talk about a lot and who I
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: don't think see their problems clearly was reported on by
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal this week. Syracuse in particular, finding
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: that this name brand, like formerly top, you know, top
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: level select college that people aspire to go to is
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: having trouble. pulling in students who want to pay full
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: freight to go to this place. And it makes the
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: economics of the university stop working. It says, this is
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, a national brand name institution with a
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: $ 2. 5 billion endowment and a storied 150-year tradition is suddenly
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: beginning to flail. The problems that have long buffeted the
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: nation's smaller schools are now spreading to the nation's bigger,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: richer universities with mid-sized private schools such as Syracuse especially
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: feeling the pinch. Fewer young people are enrolling in college
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: as the country reconsiders the value of university education. Tuition
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: has outpaced inflation for decades, has saddled students with high debt.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: The current tough job market, squeezed by the rise of
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, has added to anxiety. And it could get
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: worse because people are having fewer children.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The peak of having children was, I believe, two
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: years ago in the kids who were starting college. So
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: every subsequent college year is going to have a smaller
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: generation applying.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Right. I just don't understand. And perhaps this is the
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: economics understanding outside of the economics departments of these schools.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: I find it hard to understand why you don't understand
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: if you don't give people a product worth buying, they're
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: going to stop buying it. It costs $ 100, 000 to go
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: to Syracuse and be cold all the time.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Nobody wants that, Mary Catherine.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Well, and here's the thing, and all of these things
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: that they mentioned here are important, but also I think
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Midwestern and Northeastern schools created a market response where people
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: started going to Southern schools because I looked up the
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: difference between Syracuse and University of Georgia in 2020 to 2022.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: And it turns out at the University of Georgia, you
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: could live like a human. Right. And at Syracuse, what
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you did was you had your wastewater monitored and you
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: might be quarantined based upon it. You were doing contact
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: tracing with your school who knew where you were at
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: all times. You couldn't have parties. You couldn't go to sports.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And the big 10 and Northeastern schools both said, let's
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: get rid of football. We'll just postpone it or never
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: have this season. And the Southern schools were like, nah,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: we're going to make school work. We're going to make
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: football work. We'll see you when you get here. Like, Yeah.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: There's also the reality, and Ilya Shapiro wrote about this
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: in the New York Post last year, that Syracuse University
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: was some of the worst woke nonsense. They had 7.4
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: DEI staff for every 100 professors. I mean, stuff like
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: that is going to hurt your brand and it's going
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: to hurt your bottom line. My husband, who is pretty apolitical,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I like to post about him on X, where He's
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: never heard of the Tate brothers. He never heard of
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Milo Yiannopoulos. He's like a normie normie. He read this
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: article and he's like, the fact that they had not
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: enough space for kids in student housing one year and
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: then too much space in student housing the following year
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: is a sign of bad leadership.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: He's like all the other kind of issues around it.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: The fact that somebody is not managing how many kids
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: are going to be in student housing correctly is a
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: real bad sign for the people working there.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They keep recruiting all these people. And this happens
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: in public education as well, just K through 12. They
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: recruit all these busybodies and these weird functions while nothing
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: else is functioning as it should be. And then you
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: end up with all this admin and no kids. It's
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: just going to be an admin commune at some point
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: where they all do the HR on each other.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: My husband also pointed out that in the Wall Street
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Journal article, nobody from the school went to any lengths
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: to talk about any of the things that people used
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: to go to Syracuse for, including their... what used to
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: be considered a very good journalism school. How do you
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: not mention that you have this highly regarded journalism school
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: in a piece that you know is not going to
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: be positive about you? Throw in some positives about yourself.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: It seemed like not just a school in trouble, but
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: A school with staff that doesn't care that they're in trouble.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Yes. I don't think they see it right at all.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: By the way, Syracuse does have a former University of
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Georgia Bulldog, Fran Brown, as the head football coach. So,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a there's a glimmer of hope in
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: there for their football program. Also, also. Also in the
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: education space, I want to flag real quick that the
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Seattle Teachers Union is threatening to strike. This is still
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: very much in motion right now because kids are supposed
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to start back at school. There are 50,000 kids who
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: are on the line with this strike. The superintendent of
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Seattle schools did something interesting, which is he outed the
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: bargaining conversation because the teachers union did first to frame
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: the public argument. And he was like, you know what?
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: Let me put on the table what I've given these guys.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: First of all, I offered to negotiate in May and
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: they were like, nah, we'll see you in like July
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: or August because they're using kids as pawns. Right. Don't
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: want to go back to school. 90 percent of them
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: voted to strike, even though it's not allowed in Washington state.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: And then we find out how much they make. You're
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: ready for this. I'm ready. A hundred and forty K
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: before benefits, retirement stipends or extra hours is the largest
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: cohort of teachers in this system. That's what they make.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: And that's for the nine month year. That's not for
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: a 12 month year.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Right. And then for this contract, the district is proposing
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: an eight point eight salary increase for both teachers and
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: other staff over three years.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: And this is apparently unacceptable. Yeah. I mean, look, and
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: by the way, you're not getting a good product. Of
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: course not. Once again, and then also once again, they
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: should be eliminating admin and school buildings and consolidating. Instead,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: what have they done? They've lost enrollment because they failed
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: people and the baby bust is coming. And then they
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: add more staff and ask for more money.
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I feel like all of these schools are trying to
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: wait out the Trump administration and see what the next
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Democrat administration is going to provide for them. And I
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: think what Seattle is learning is that the teachers unions
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: just don't care about kids.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Like they're not.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Interested in getting your kids a good education. They're not
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: taking a deal that sounds more than fair. And I
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: like that the superintendent is now saying, you know, this
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: is what we're dealing with and we're, We have this
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: budget shortfall and they won't take this positive deal.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think being straightforward about the numbers with people, which,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: by the way, is their money, their taxpayers, is very
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: helpful in framing this debate properly. So good on him.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Teachers unions, not your friends, not your friends. Well, thanks
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: for joining us on Normally. Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays,
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: in touch with us at normallythepod at gmail.com. Thanks for listening,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: and when things get weird, act normally.