Latest / Lucid Interval Podcast / Authenticity, Truth in Dating, and Getting Real - Susan Campbell, PhD
Transcript
- Andrew Heacock: Doctor Susan Campbell, thanks for joining me. susan campbell: Thanks for inviting me. Andrew Heacock: What does it mean to get real and how did you get interested in that idea? susan campbell: Okay, so ⁓ this reminds me of ⁓ when my book Getting Real first came out. A talk show host asked me, What do you get when you get real? And I said, Well, first you get to see how unreal you actually are. So getting real is a self-awareness practice, and most people value honesty, but they don't have the skill to really. know where they're coming from sometimes when they're honest. So they they they say things like, well you never you know you never listen to me. And they consider that honest for example. ⁓ What that is, is a thought about the other person, but it's not giving what actually happened, what you felt. It's a judgment about somebody else. So when I say getting real I mean first becoming aware of all the ways that people go on automatic when they communicate, like like f f flipping off their opinions, ⁓ which is kind of automatic a lot of times, or somebody gives you a compliment and you you know about what you're wearing and you go, ⁓ this old thing. Rather than aware honesty is what I'm promoting here, and it's it's it's called. the getting real work because it's a body of communication practices, such as noticing what you see, hear, smell with your senses, and then knowing the difference between that and what your mind says that means. Like my partner slams the door when he comes in. So I hear that. So that's what I actually experienced. But my mind goes, ⁓ he must be in a bad mood. I I better walk on eggshells tonight. So getting real means you know the distinction between what you actually heard or saw and what your inner reaction is, which is often a story based on old fears that we have. Like it's not safe to be around a person who slams doors or something like that. Andrew Heacock: So is the way to That's just kind of like a schema or a story that we tell, but it's not grounded in our sensory experience. So is is like mindfulness the the method that you use to to know the difference basically between the story and and what's real? susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah, what what mindfulness means in this context is being able to notice what's going on in inside of yourself. And so and and knowing that distinction between what happened and what your mind does, that's a form of mindfulness. Andrew Heacock: How'd you come to get interested in this subject and and to write about it? susan campbell: Well, seemed to be I grew up in the fifties, okay, so that was a long time ago, but it seemed to me at that time that people had a really hard time admitting their weaknesses, asking for help, and anything that inf interfered with them looking good on the outside. And you might say not much has changed, you know, but I was critical of that. I thought, you know, there must be a a more intimate, trusting way that people could spend time together. So I I just watched for a while as a little kid how people seemed to cover up a lot of of what was really going on and as I grew I became a psychologist and I understood I understood then that there's a lot of fear that you're gonna be judged, ⁓ that you're gonna be told you're wrong. Maybe you don't dare to share what you want from somebody like your lover because you're afraid they will feel obligated or they'll say no. So there's all these fears. And I didn't understand that as a small person. I just thought, what's so hard about telling the truth? Then I become a psychologist. I look under the hood a little bit and I say, ⁓ man, we're so riddled with fears. What if we made it a practice to notice the fears that come up when we consider asking for what we want or asking for help or that sort of thing, you know, any kind of vulnerable thing. What if we've noticed that we, ⁓ we actually have some fear? Then we can still express, but we can do it with a little, little more sensitivity to the tender parts inside of us so that our our communication has a little more depth to it. Andrew Heacock: You know, I smiled a little bit when you were talking about being a a little person and or younger person and and not understanding why people don't just say what they feel and what they mean. It's interesting how the the process of growing up and becoming socialized is unfortunately the process of learning to not say those things, to not be as authentic. do you think that's what leads to a lot of mental health problems in adulthood? That we just kind of have these social expectations that are maybe a little bit skewed in terms of how we should relate to our inner experience? susan campbell: I think really there's a part of the the the human being, we could call it the human animal, because ⁓ it is a holdover from our primitive animal ancestors or primitive humans that spent a lot of time in the jungle where there really w were life-threatening dangers. And so we still have that part in our brain. It's in the middle part of our brain. We mostly think of our brain. Brain is our the part that thinks and solves problems and can cooperate. But there's a other part of the brain that's always scanning for danger, like the the primitive humans. And that we don't need that part of our brain quite as much anymore because there's not a lot of lions and tigers around. But over time, ⁓ that Part of the brain that's called the amygdala, and brain scientists also call it the survival alarm system. So that's the part that's always scanning for some kind of danger. Now just evolution has has created the only danger being disconnection from the people that we care about or the people we depend on, the people we need, or that kind of thing. Some some kind of abandonment, rejection, some somebody trying to control us. So we we all of us have sort of basic core needs for how we need to be nurtured when we're growing up. And and we don't we don't do well with a lot of yelling and criticism and that sort of thing. Little kids don't do well with that. we begin When we get criticized, sometimes very well-meaning parents or teachers, we get criticized for certain mistakes. And that, if you're really little, that feels kind of dangerous to your nervous system. So over the, over the course of human evolution, our nervous systems have have almost like substituted like criticism or attempts to control me or that sort of thing. Like I act like that's a tiger about to jump out at me at the in the bushes, you know, it seems life-threatening because when we were little, it really kind of wasn't life-threatening exactly, although some ⁓ parental treatment is life-threatening. But I'm talking about the av, you know, average kid growing up. Your core needs for feeling safe and loved and Important, significant, those those are really core needs for children. And it create you need to to create as a parent certain conditions for safety so that that child can thrive and then they can trust that, ⁓ my my basic needs will be met. But so many of us, and a lot of it's just parents are too busy to listen to their kids, so they get impatient, you know, let me do it, get out of the way, don't bother me. l even little things like that, which are kinda normal for parents to do, it can it can kinda hurt the child's development into a safe, secure, I am loved ⁓ adult. So most of us have that kind of childhood unfinished business and it's it memories of that reside in this amygdala area of the brain, the survival alarm area, ⁓ because because it did seem like it was a threat to our survival when we were two years old. It isn't if somebody criticizes us now, we're adults, we're not two anymore, it really isn't life threatening, but it's associated with something life threatening like a tiger. A and that's enough for us to be afraid. And like I said, a lot of us, you know, carry these fears inside and we don't even actually feel afraid. We just behave that way. It's obvious to other people, but you might not even realize it. So we call that getting triggered, you know, when somebody i insults you or says something that reminds you of of one of those childhood unfortunate situations. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, so getting triggered is like a visceral fear response, basically. It's like remembered fear from when we were younger. When I when you're a little child, like things can be life threatening. You're you're tiny, you're helpless, basically, you're powerless. And this is go ahead. susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. And so you yeah, so it's not social. So it's I you know, you asked if it's sort of like the society we live in. The society we live in doesn't know how to handle human the human unconscious. And so yes, all these conformity things to try to feel safe, ⁓ have come up. But I'm I'm always looking for that deep deeper reason why. And that's it's in our nervous systems. Andrew Heacock: And this is it ⁓ sounds a lot like what people are talking about with attachment theory, right? I mean, it's kind of what you talked about, these early childhood imprintings. What ⁓ what was the status of that research when you started ⁓ your path in psychology in the sixties? susan campbell: Yes yes, yes it was. ⁓ well there were a couple of researchers who talked about childhood needs and childhood trauma. One guy was ⁓ John Bowlby and Mary Aines, and they were the first people that I ever learned about, probably probably in my freshman year in college, so that would have been you know, nineteen sixty or ⁓ nineteen fifty-nine-sixty is when I was in college. So stuff was going on then. Some people were talking about that. N nobody was and so and they were talking about childhood attachment and the childhood attachment needs to be safe and loved and that sort of thing. ⁓ but only more in recent years, maybe starting in the eighties, is when I started writing about triggers, but I called it buttons then, what to do when your buttons get pushed. So I'd say around the around the nineteen eighties was when we began to to think in terms of adults ⁓ having insecure attachment based on the kind of wounds I just mentioned, core developmental needs not being met. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, I ⁓ I think about the authenticity is a word that I use all the time. I think about it all the time and I think about authenticity as medicine, but ⁓ authenticity is a little bit of a ⁓ I hate to use this word, but it's almost sort of a privilege of people who have a calm nervous system. You know, mean it kind of there's a preliminary step of preliminary step of getting to nervous system safety because authenticity requires vulnerability. And if you if vulnerability is intolerably frightening and you don't really know why, you can't really be authentic. You're gonna be susan campbell: Mm. Hey. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Whatever version of yourself you have to contort yourself into to think that people will not hurt you. And so there's like this preliminary step, and I we go back to what you were talking about, mindfulness, or I use that word. ⁓ you have to know what's going on in your body because it does feel like, ⁓ this person is attacking me. When it's like, no, you're feeling attacked. There's a big difference. There's a there's there's an important difference, right? How did these distinctions sort of start to emerge like in your career? How did you start to see them coming up in your work? susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. True. Well, you start by noticing that a per a person either notices it in themselves, like I have an anger problem or I have a problem ⁓ speaking up for what I want. You know, I'm not very assertive. You know, peop people notice patterns like that or people around them tell them that, you know, you have an anger problem. So you know the So people will come to a therapist like me and they'll they'll present that and then we'll look at the kind of situations that trigger anger or trick or ⁓ or trigger being ⁓ kind of shut down and shy and withdrawn. And s so that's how I f you know, I first learn about it through my clients, basically. ⁓ ha having their relationships not work too well. Or their decisions being like poor decisions, poor decisions about who to date, who who to marry, those kinds of things. People realize that ⁓ it could say they weren't playing with a full deck. They weren't being authentic because they didn't dare feel certain things. So what a therapist usually does is is help you uncover the things you don't dare to feel. So I might ask a person who comes in and says, ⁓ No, I pop off in anger to my kids and then I feel terrible. well tell me about a time when you did what you're calling pop-off. And what was the situation? What did the child do? What did you feel in your body when that happened? What did your mind do? What in other words, what story did you make up? that this means, you know, like if I don't handle this right away, I'm a bad parent. You know, maybe you made that made up that story. Or if if I let this kid be that way, he he'll be he'll have an unhappy adulthood. So I better jump on this right away. So or maybe the k the kid reminds me of my father. You know, I'm an adult, a dad, but my kid reminded me of my father because he's he's was always resisting everything I tried to offer. He he would come back with some argument. And that had me feeling very small. So when my kid does that to me, I get very big. Just people either get too big or too small. When one of these old you could call ⁓ core fears, you could call ⁓ developmental ⁓ attachment needs, that sort of thing, when when one of those ⁓ needs f seems to be threatened. So you can even Seem to be threatened by your own five year old child. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, well, if the story is that if I, you know, if I don't know how to parent the child perfectly, then I'm a bad person or that, you know, dot dot dot. There's like a therefore and then who knows what that could be. I mean, ⁓ I is it fair to say I I love what you said that a therapist's job is to help people find the things they don't dare to feel. I love that. Is do you think it's also a lot of it is just helping people see the difference between what's real and what is the story they're making up, and to just at least to know that there is a difference? susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, it Yes, yeah, yeah. That's the one of the main cornerstones of what I had what I termed getting real, knowing that distinction. Andrew Heacock: So I'm just I've been fascinated to know what was it like being in college and grad school during the sixties? What was it like studying psychology during the sixties? 'Cause there's been a lot of discourse about the baby boomer generation, ⁓ who were being born at that time and ⁓ and therapy culture and self help culture and things like that. And you were kind of there at the ground floor when things started to change. So I'm just I'm curious, what can you tell us about that time? susan campbell: Yeah. first of all I wanna say that I'm not a boomer. I'm too old to be a boomer, but I ⁓ here's here's kind of a little ⁓ joke I say, you know, I'm too old too old I was too old to ⁓ I guess what what what was I used to say? Too old to be a boomer and too employed to be a hippie. But hippies yeah, the hippie culture was was very big when I got af but I had already gotten my PhD. I got my PhD, so I'll just co give you context. In nineteen sixty seven, which we we called the Summer of Love. Okay, so you said college, but there's this whole period of the mid mid to late sixties and when things started to change. When I first went to college, ⁓ we all wore girdles and we used hairspray and everything had to be perfect, okay? So that was the culture That some of these new growth technologies emerged from. It was such an uptight culture and ev you know, e everybody was ⁓ just so controlled and buttoned up and you didn't you didn't show emotions. If you were seeing a therapist, like I was a you know, I hung up my shingle in nineteen sixty seven. You had to keep that a secret. My clients didn't want anybody to know they were in therapy. I mean that's a big difference, right? Andrew Heacock: Now it's almost a red flag if you're not in therapy. Really, right? Yeah, yeah. It's ⁓ it's like it's like a dating question where it's like, does this person do their own work? Because if they don't, it's kind of like, ⁓ I don't know if we have a common vocabulary. That's a big change. I think there was ⁓ God, there was a presidential candidate whose or I think it was a vice presidential candidate whose wife had had mental health treatment and had to drop out as a result of that. susan campbell: I know, we talked about that. It is. So we have. Yeah. It's a big change and th there's some so changes. Andrew Heacock: In the eighties, I think. Yeah, something like in the eighties, I think. ⁓ yeah. susan campbell: Why I can't remember that. Somebody had to drop out. Usually, I mean in the by the 80s it wasn't that that didn't. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, I think she'd receive ECT. Yeah. ⁓ I can't remember who it was. Maybe Walter Mondale. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Hmm. But I y I know vulnerability, you know, like Betty f Betty Ford had cancer and and some other politician had erectile dysfunction and they were all, you know, this was in the eighties and nineties, maybe not the two thousands, but you know, th by by the n by nineteen eighty this h wasn't so uptight anymore because what happened during the late sixties Andrew Heacock: Yeah, but it's big big change where yeah. susan campbell: is well we started with the summer of love and s and we had psychedelics, during the Vietnam War w and that was mostly ⁓ heating up during the early sixties and then we got wind of it, you know, we understood it more as a culture. ⁓ and we began to question authority, b because we had ⁓ quite a quite a bit of leader ⁓ leadership a vacuum or dishonesty in the leadership of our country back then, you know, n not as bad as it is now, but that was being rebelled against by a large segment of the population during the Vietnam War. Most of us thought that they w that it was an unwise move for us to send all those Americans to fight in that war. So so that what was it like was was your question. There was a lot of ⁓ questioning of authority. ⁓ there was upheaval in the streets having to do with racism. ⁓ so the civil and the civil rights movement was was ⁓ important. There were a lot of marches on Washington and this sort of thing. So there there was an activism. in the in the culture based based on disillusionment with the mainstream culture. And then we had the whole human growth movement, the human potential movement. It was just beginning again. And people were beginning to say, why can't we be more real with each other? And why and and and sexual norms were were being questioned too. You know, why do you have to be married to have sex? Because back in the back in the ⁓ fifties, like a ⁓ I would say maybe a s a slight majority of people were virgin on their on their wedding night, up until somewhere in the sixties that started to change. So there was Andrew Heacock: Hill came along, yeah, I guess made that a different different proposition. susan campbell: Yeah, it was I mean, so there was like questioning authority, sexual liberation, ⁓ people look looking at the culture from the outside and saying, you know, this is this is not a fair and economically just society. so so there's that mood, and and then psychedelics had us looking at wow, this reality that's the consensus reality, there might be a whole lot more to reality. than we thought. So it's it's like all the rules were kind of up for grabs. And that was the sixties and the seventies and and there were a lot of growth centers. We have now we have Eselin as like the main place that people go and that's not really edgy like it used to be at all. It's pretty tame the workshops there, but there used to be, you know, naked encounter groups and drumming circles all night and just kind of much much more ⁓ free expression. So that all happened in the in the 70s to try to push the limits of w w what we call the human potential, to realize we have a lot more potential than ⁓ this buttoned down society is supporting. So let's change society. Let's change the culture. Well that no that was great for a while. then ⁓ didn't it it didn't have a real big impact on the mainstream culture, but there's still this huge countercultural movement that exists today and I'm part of that. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, you see yourself as as your work as a continuation of the kind of the human potential movement. Yes. And so when you came out in your clinical practice, wh who did you start working with? Just anybody that needed therapy at that time? I guess most to be a therapist you had to be a clinical psychologist at that time. susan campbell: Yes. Yeah, yeah. so I just I think I was still getting my hours 'cause this was Massachusetts. It wasn't it wasn't as strict in those days. I was still getting my hours for ⁓ licensing, which I did get, but I just h hung out my shingle. I I was kind of in in association with a a psychiatrist. So we we had offices in the same complex and he he kinda mentored me. But that wasn't anything official. So yeah, I just hung on my shingle, went around and met lawyers and clergy and school teachers and they started referring people to me and I had full range of ⁓ different kinds of clients. nowadays, the kind of people that come to me because of my books and things are pretty high functioning people who just wanna dig deeper and become more authentic and self-aware. In those days, yeah, it's just anybody. People that were a lot harder to work with than the people I have now. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, people that are just like wanting to work towards being more authentic are are obviously a self selecting group, right? Like, yeah, it's people that are ⁓ by definition high functioning, probably. If that's your if that's your biggest worry and where you wanna put your money towards it, you're by definition not, you know, homeless or alcoholic, probably. Yeah. susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did have, you know, people who well, see I wasn't just I was gonna say I had people who lived on the streets, which I did, but they didn't come to my office. They didn't say, Hey, I want a session. I was also when I hung out my shingle in Northampton, Massachusetts, I was kind of ⁓ I was alternative. I went into the I went into people's homes, I went to the welfare department and collaborated with ⁓ the social workers ab about who who need what families needed support because one or both parents were alcoholics. So I'd go to people's homes, I'd even go to the ⁓ under the bridge right near where my office was and there'd be alcoholics there that maybe was connected to one of the families I was working with. So I I dealt with street people in those days as well as ⁓ more privileged types. Andrew Heacock: What did ⁓ other members of your profession think about that at the time? Like your your peers, your colleagues? susan campbell: I I was ⁓ I was respected for that. People real really ⁓ valued what I was doing. I had a lot I don't know, there's something about my personality. I I I had a lot of authority. I'm I'm twenty-five, twenty-six years old, and the social workers and the teachers, you know, from the place the institutions that I connected with, they all wanted me to kind of mentor them, you know. They're mostly older than me, but I you know, so I I I had a lot of respect. Andrew Heacock: So what aspect of your work, I mean, other than just what was going on in the culture at the moment, led you to your interest in getting real? susan campbell: Hmm. Well, I wanted a I wanted a better world for me for for the kind of people I want to hang out with. Because when I first like when I first got my psychology degree in my twenties, the only people I could like really relate to were other psychologists because they had had this kind of training on on accepting all the different parts of yourself, not repressing too much. ⁓ but then after we did all this human growth, you know, human potential movement, all these growth centers, f with all c all kinds of people, professions or not professional, anybody would go to those, it was like, ⁓ I can talk to everybody now. So I did it for myself. Like what kind of a world do I want to live in? Andrew Heacock: That's beautiful. Yeah. Well, I mean, you definitely seem to have moved the needle because like we've said, I mean, ⁓ just kind of an awareness of these topics is so much in the culture now. if we are having a cultural upheaval, it's that like just kind of living with being unhappy is no longer something that people in at least my age and younger seem to be willing to accept. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they're also not hiding it. Back in the the 50s, everyone h high hid it. A lot of alcoholism that I never knew about until much later and you know would talk to people after the fact. I never even I I my parents hardly drank. So I d I didn't see that strata of of privileged society. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, there definitely seems to be a a lot of change in that too, just in the this lack of stigma around addiction and alcoholism as well. ⁓ do you recall a time when you began to see that changing? susan campbell: Yeah. ⁓ well, I guess I it would be when I first bec became aware of Alcoholics Anonymous in the various twelve step programs. It was somewhere in the seventies and I just thought, wow, that's really what people need. They need social support and they need a a d a different reference group because these guys, their reference group is Bar down the street, you know, that's their reference group and they need to be drinking to fit in. So ⁓ I you know, I became aware of the sort of and there was sort of a shift, it was this whole movement of things becoming less secretive. And so even though at first AA you're not supposed to It's supposed to be anonymous, it's supposed to be, you know, tell anybody that that other guy's in your AA group with you. ⁓ just gradually it it infiltrated the culture that almost everybody has some kind of problem with you know, alcoholism is just one example. And I actually thought, well, we need everybody needs a 12-step program. That's what I thought of right away. And I sometimes, Andrew, I call getting real because it's a set of practices that help you get over your need to control how people see you or control the outcome. I and I would say American society is addicted to control. So we need a twelve step program for the rest of us. And that's what getting real is. It's a twelve step program for the rest of us. And you know, we meet in little groups and things, sort of like AA. Andrew Heacock: So yeah, can we get into then ⁓ what are these practices and principles? I think you said there's in the the book is titled There's Ten Truths, right? Can we get into what those are? susan campbell: Yeah, yeah. So one of them one of them is being transparent, just a a value on letting other people see what's going on inside of you. and one of the other like I call ⁓ truth skills, ten truth skills. Another one is knowing the difference between what you see and what you imagine. You know, what you notice and what the story your mind makes up. That that distinction. Another a skill has to do with being able to listen to somebody's point of view that's very different from your own, you know, like political differences or differences in how to how to raise our child, you know, strict versus a little, little more ⁓ letting the child have autonomy. So there's all there's all these differences that people have to learn to deal with somehow. And so that's one of the things that we practice in those groups that I teach is seeing how hard it is sometimes to listen to a point of view that's different from yours, first looking at w what's going on inside of me that has so much resistance to that, so getting a lot of self awareness, and then from that self awareness being able to communicate, like, for example, ⁓ I I love you and and you're married to my brother and I really like it when we feel connected, but when we talk about politics, I just I have a really hard time feeling connected to you and it's it's hard. It it causes me pain. That type of thing. Just being able to talk about the differences in a way that doesn't make anybody wrong. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, that's that's such a that's such a a game changer when you are able to start to to practice that. I mean, because like you said, nobody has to be wrong. So nobody has to be defensive. And you also you can't be and you cannot be incorrect about how you feel in the moment. So there's really no way to argue that point. If you just say, Hey, you know, when you talk about politics at the dinner table, this is what I feel. there's really no way to rebuild. Refute that. I mean, you could just say, well, I don't care how you feel. Your feelings are your problem, feelings are not facts, but that's kind of an antisocial way to approach it. And, you know, that's how ⁓ if that's a person's attitude, that's what it is. But it's much different than being like, you know, you really are an idiot because of your political views, or you know, getting into name-calling. I mean, it's just really un it's counterproductive to do it that way. susan campbell: Yeah, and I agree with what you're saying, and sometimes you do have really different facts. You know? I mean that's that's a big one today. What fact you know do you well it's an absolute fact, but you d deny it and dispute it. So okay, all we can do there is we're ⁓ w we're watching different movies and I have feelings about that, but I'm not saying you're bad or wrong for having different facts. You know, but we gotta face it. You know, some of us are really looking at looking at different movies too. So it's not all just about feelings, but what I suggest when we try to communicate across those lines is expressing the feelings about the difference r rather than arguing about the facts. You know, I mean You're not gonna win that one. Andrew Heacock: So if you're I mean, at a at the this the prototypical Thanksgiving dinner and you've got the very outspoken family member that that has different facts than you, w what ⁓ what is the what do you think is the like the getting real version of of approaching that kind of situation? What's the right way to address it? susan campbell: ⁓ might I might be be saying, I'm fe I'm I'm feeling tense listening to what you're saying. I am having a a hard time feeling connected to you right now. And I'm also feeling kinda like sad and disappointed. that I can't feel more connected to you because ⁓ I I love and respect you so much. But j just what ⁓ just talk about your feelings about the difference. That's that's what I would recommend. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, to just ground it in and how it's affecting you in the moment. That also sounds a lot like how you approach an intervention, like it for an addict or an alcoholic. You you ground it in how their behavior affects you, 'cause that you can't be wrong about that. Otherwise it just gets you get into an argument. susan campbell: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's the key is you s if you stay with your own experience and that's one of those true skills, stay on your own side of the net. Talk about what you heard, like I heard you say that We're winning the war in Iran. ⁓ I don't even know what, you know, my thought is, I don't even know what that means to you. ⁓ would you, you know, would you tell me more about what you're referring to? ⁓ well, somebody s on the news said this. Okay, hearing you say that, I'm having a really hard time. ⁓ wanting to go further with this conversation. I think maybe we we just have such different views on certain things that ⁓ let's find something that we can ⁓ s you know that we can connect around. You know, so sometimes I just would end a conversation when I hear some I mean I asked somebody ⁓ why did you vote for Trump a long time ago. I asked this guy this first in the first Trump term. He said, well ⁓ he's rich and he's got a hot wife. So, you know, I was sincerely interested and that sincerely that was a sincere response. You know? I I I can deal with that without you know, I mean it was it it's kind of a joke in a way when I share it with somebody else, but ⁓ I I I guess I it was kinda kinda refreshing in a way, you know. Yeah. He was he was Andrew Heacock: I find that really fascinating. I find political psychology really fascinating. I mean, yeah, it it is well, so it's authentic. It's exactly what we're talking about. And a lot of people, when you ask them why do they like Donald Trump, they're they'll say he tells it like it is, which is nonsense because he lies more than anybody ever who's lived. Is he's literally the single most documented liar in human history. However, he's there's something about him that's kind of authentic, I think is what people are are pointing to. That at least they find him authentic. A lot of people felt the same thing about Bernie Sanders in that election and ⁓ susan campbell: ⁓ huh. That's what people are saying. And I I understand that. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, and there is something refreshing about being like, ⁓ he's rich and he's got a hot wife. And it's like, well, at least you're not pretending that it's because, you know, he's got some sort of like master plan with with foreign policy. It's like, no, this is this is the thing. Milania is hot and like I'm going for that. He's ⁓ that's funny. I and it ⁓ you know, one of the things I'm trying to I'm trying to find a guest to to talk about political psychology. Cause that that answer right there, I would just be deeply fascinated by that person. It's such a fascinating susan campbell: Yeah, I just don't think. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: thing when a person's like, no, this is actually how I choose my vote for president is based on these things. And it's just like, wow. You know, if you can have a kind of a radically open-minded point of view about things like that, I think that's another thing that's been coming up of just hearing the when when disagreements about politics in particular come up. You you mentioned also the way people raise their children. I don't have children. I never would have thought of that, but I'm like, you know what? I can see how that would easily provoke the same kind of acrimony. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Andrew Heacock: Or if not more, as a political discussion or maybe a religious discussion. And I think what really upsets people is the perception that the other person is intolerant of them or just not open minded. And that does seem to be a big factor here with if someone's you know, you you said, Well, I'd I'd like to know more. You know, like please, I'm interested. I mean, if someone like in a non-judgmental way, I just see people ⁓ let their guard down with me a lot. susan campbell: Yes. Mm. Andrew Heacock: Because I I just like to get to know people. I like to get to know, especially people who have differing viewpoints from me. I most especially want to find the best possible version of that so that I can, so that I can I can play with it. Or I I or I can, you know, I can I can work with it, try to understand it, and maybe update my thinking. And people get very people are very defensive naturally about again, religion and politics. I'm not really asking people about how they raise their children, to be honest with you. And but maybe it would be the same thing. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It was Andrew Heacock: ⁓ and I think that I can sort of see people soften a little bit when they realize that I'm I'm just genuinely curious and would like to know more. And then they kind of open up. But ⁓ that's usually not how these things start. They start with everybody being defensive and then no one ever gets to the part where they try to understand each other. susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I'll I have certain criteria about whether I'll engage with people, even though I value always being curious. But ⁓ sometimes I just don't wanna work that hard. But family members family members I do. So my sister in law ⁓ is a you know, she says climate change is a hoax and you know, everything that Trump does, he's our savior. And so I I asked her a little more about that. 'Cause I Andrew Heacock: It's just it's not worth it. Yeah, right, right, right. susan campbell: She's somebody I would want to invest in. And I I wouldn't just say, let's talk about something else. And ⁓ as I inquired more, the the biggest issue for her was racial integration and ⁓ immigration, but also black kids getting led into white schools back in the 60s. 'Cause she was a teacher and that in the South and that made and I was no, as I continued to explore, that made her job so hard ⁓ racial integration, having ⁓ b black kids bust into white schools. That's the way it was i in the south. ⁓ those of us who grew up in the north don't ⁓ we never really knew what was going on up close. Like she did. And she said it was just so hard to teach those students who were like not liking each other. And and she said, you know, everybody formed their cliques anyway. They never really integrated. They just s were in the same school in the same class. And she said it was there was just so much extra emotional lack of safety that she couldn't teach. And I and and she was like a s really sincere teacher. And so I got that sort of was a formative experience that that made her kind of a racist, you know, to this day. But also, she also would say things every once in a while like, we Southerners are not so dumb. That wasn't in this conversation, but I would tune into that and I realized, you know, some Southerners are still fighting the Civil War about slavery because it ruined their economy. ⁓ you know, the abolish abolishing slavery, ruined their economy. And a lot of Southerners feel ⁓ that they are looked down upon by other parts of the country. And you know, that that touched my heart when I heard that. I heard that more than once. So there's all kinds of motives and ma maybe I'll never agree with her thinking. But it really helps to know where somebody's coming from. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, it's like this empathy that again is also like a lubricant. I mean, again to being open minded. I think o being open mindedness is literally like cognitive empathy, but just emotional empathy, just understanding like well, what what's this person's experience been like? What are they feeling? What have they felt? What drives their behavior? ⁓ there's this wonderful movie that was is a a remake of a play by Sidney Lumet called Twelve Angry Men. Have you seen it? susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I'm not remembering it. So go ahead. Andrew Heacock: It's just it's a it is literally one of the greatest of all time movies. It's just about this, it's about a jury ⁓ in New York City on this one hot day, and it's a really hot day and they want to get out of there. But and there's a murder trial and they're just like, let's just convict the guy and get out of here. And there's this one guy, this one juror that is constantly kind of raising doubt. And slowly but surely one by one, they start changing their vote from guilty to not guilty. And ⁓ it's an interesting really interesting look at the what people's motivations are for like a guilty verdict in this example is a really profound it was a play and then it was shot it was you know the Sidney Lumet's first film is amazing. It's just extraordinary. and ⁓ yeah it's just basically about this. It's kind of the cathartic big reveal is that someone had a bad relationship with the son and this kid reminded him of his son and and he'd been hurt and ⁓ that was George C. Scott, his character Not to ruin it for anybody, but ⁓ if you know it was made I think it came out in nineteen sixty. So if you haven't caught it yet, spoiler alert. ⁓ it's a really good definitely get the definitely get the version from the sixties. It's really, really, really good, but it's a play. ⁓ yeah, and it's it, you know, we have when we have this animus, we have these unresolved feelings, especially when we don't really know about them at any conscious level. They just kind of leak out into our relationships with other people. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. I'll I'll I'll I'll go get it again. I'm gonna need to take a bathroom break. So however you wanna handle that, be right back. Andrew Heacock: Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. No problem. Gotcha. Okay, gotcha. so what was the first book that you published? Was it getting real? susan campbell: Okay. No, ⁓ my first book was called Expanding Your Teaching Potential, Education for Participation in a Changing World. Because I I taught my first job after getting my PhD was teaching at the Graduate School of Education at UMass. So I was very interested in what was going on in the classroom and I was trying to bring a lot of these human potential practices, you know, like the encounter groups that that we were experimenting with and self awareness practices, bringing those into the classrooms. So that's what my first book was. Andrew Heacock: There's a lot of talk now in education, I think, about social emotional learning. Is that kind of similar to what, you know, just basically using using s you know psychology and tr therapy informed approaches to working with children on emotional? Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ but your was your book about teaching susan campbell: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that's com I'm glad that's coming back. 'Cause it went away for a while. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Was your book about ⁓ teaching like children or ⁓ was it for also adult teaching 'cause you were teaching in in you were teaching college students who were going to learn to teach children, is that right? susan campbell: Yeah. And the practices that were suggested in the book were practices teachers can use in their classrooms. But a lot of it ⁓ was for adult learners too, like people who are workshop leaders. I had a lot of different workshop designs, you know, and how to design a workshop for conflict resolution, you know, for example, for listening to people who are different. So It it was also a a hand a handbook of group exercises that would t teach these kind of skills. Andrew Heacock: That's interesting because you also in in your current coaching practice, you in cul consulting practice, you work with like companies, right? Teams, organizations. So how did you get into doing that work? susan campbell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, I taught ⁓ when I taught at UMass the curriculum that we taught, and actually I got some postdoctoral training in organizational development, in working with communities like a city, companies l like Apple or IBM. So I I got training in that in my twenties, and that was always gonna be one arm of of my practice. You know, one arm was individual couple family therapy, which you do in your office, and the other arm was team built team building and conflict resolution for companies and you go you go to their s to their site or we do these off site retreats. So I'm I I started right out ⁓ doing that and I was part of a network. So how do you get your business is what people want to know. You know, how do you get to work for for Apple computer? I was part of a network of organizational consultants, a couple of different networks, and you know some of them were more experienced than me, so and they had a client that they couldn't take, so they refer them to me, that sort of thing. And that's what I did for a lot of junior therapists, you know. I mean I was I never had too many organizational clients, but I often had too many ⁓ private practice clients. So I I I helped quite a few younger therapists. Andrew Heacock: So susan campbell: Get off the ground by referring my overflow to them. Andrew Heacock: so I can see how like in an organizational context, you already I mean you I've already talked about conflict management. ⁓ that a lot of these principles of like the getting real, the the truth tasks that could apply there. I mean, what is what was that like working in an organizational context with people? I mean, I wouldn't I'm imagine working with Apple Computer, you know, places like that, there's this term for certain business environments which is cutthroat. and it I would imagine that that could have been one of those at the time you were working with them. What's it like talking to them about conflict management and authenticity and getting real and things like that nature? susan campbell: Let's see. Well, one of the big one of the big things in the beginning was I would pitch, like in the very beginning of the seventies, I would I would pitch a ⁓ intervention ⁓ about ⁓ just a training, like there was one that I pitched to Hewlett Packard, ⁓ emotions in the workplace. And the feedback I got was ⁓ we don't want that. You know, we want people to leave their emotions in the parking lot. But then about five years later You know, the culture had changed and I was getting, ⁓ and and Hewlett Packwood was one of ⁓ reaching out to me and saying, you know, but they would be a team. I I didn't work with a whole Apple Apple computer. I mean it's huge, but different teams within the company would hire me and they ⁓ they might say, I heard this more than once, our team is like a dysfunctional family. And and and so ⁓ When they knew so in the early days, if they didn't know they needed it and somebody just called me in, like, you know, the the head of the team or the CEO, sometimes it was the CEO of a company. ⁓ I worked for a long time for Rainbird Sprinklers, and the the CEO brought me in. But it was only to work with his top team, all the different vice presidents. But sometimes when the CEO forces the other people to sit in a room together, there's a lot of resistance. but then I have to deal I deal with that resistance. But then later they didn't feel forced. They they they all seem to, even if it was the the top person who brought me in without consent of everybody, they they were more eager to like, ⁓ yeah, we definitely need emotional intelligence. We definitely need to be able to be able to communicate without it causing so much stress on the other side. Well communicate in a way that people can hear. So ⁓ I watched an evolution there ⁓ in the 70s ⁓ and then by the eighties some companies were even willing to look at this trigger thing that I called what to do when your buttons get pushed. So what was it like? It was There was always more resistance in the corporate world, and I'll tell you what I mean by resistance in a minute, but always more resistance in the corporate world than there ever was when people came and paid their own money. See, I mean, y for obvious reasons, but because the in the but also in the corporate world there's more ⁓ to lose telling the truth to your colleagues, like telling the truth that ⁓ you feel left out. Nobody no n nobody ever wants to collaborate with me. I'll be seen as a big baby if I talk about that. Or why does everybody come to me to help them out? ⁓ w why don't why don't why don't some of the you other guys step up? I'm doing more than my share. You know, there was conversations like that for sure. I mean those were the w conversations that needed to happen. But it w it it got gradually easier for people to admit those kinds of things d ⁓ d during the seventies and into the eighties. But every c every every corporation has a different culture. You know, I mean Apple was was pretty ⁓ Andrew Heacock: Yeah, so I susan campbell: sort of enlightened in term in terms of this humanistic psychology stuff. ⁓ there was always ⁓ form of power abuse that would be like favoritism, you know, nepotism, those kinds of things. ⁓ n ⁓ w there would always be something that came up like that, you know, or you're treating this person better than you're treating me, and I suspect ⁓ you know, there's some there's some kind of unjust evaluation going on. so power abuse is something that that seems very important and hard to deal with and and almost universal. Andrew Heacock: Did you ever meet Steve Jobs? Didn't he didn't show up for the trainings on niceness and kindness and being being real. He seemed pretty real. He just was, you know, authentically a jerk. susan campbell: Mm. Mm. No. ⁓ It yeah, he was pretty he was pretty on task. He wasn't a he wasn't a touchy feely type of guy. Andrew Heacock: What is ⁓ how is working with like C suite ⁓ executives different from just more your general corporate work? Is there just like a different set of skills and demands required for that? susan campbell: You gotta be smart and quick witted and you gotta let you know some some consultants are so touchy feely that the ⁓ executives can't can't relate to you. So I I I think you really do have to have a s a certain confidence and and quick quick quick on the ⁓ uptake kind kind of personality to be trusted. Andrew Heacock: To be credible. Yeah, 'cause they're I mean, if they're in the C suite they're they're smart, yeah. susan campbell: Credibility. Yeah. And you gotta maybe be able to handle ⁓ criti criticism. I mean that's just the the consultant themselves, and you need to r really be sincerely seeking ⁓ critique about what you could do better. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. ⁓ susan campbell: These guys want to get their money's worth. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Yeah. What was what was like one of the one of the most direct or biding critiques you ever received in that context? susan campbell: just knew I was being judged all the time but I can't remember w what the specific ⁓ behaviors were. You know, we're talking the nineteen seventies now, but I I was working for this l this sort of big legal firm. It wasn't C suite, but ⁓ they were all lawyers and ⁓ I was I was brought in by another organization to train to train them in more soft skills, listening and revealing and that sort of thing. And I I just can remember being myself being so scared of their judgment all the time. ⁓ you know, lawyers, they can ask these questions that ⁓ aren't designed to get information. They're designed to kind of cut you down. And I I I I stopped working for them. I just said I'm I'm I can remember feeling like I'm not gonna be able to be my best in this kind of a a corporate culture. So that one sticks out. You know, your failures are what sticks out stick out to you. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, well there's an emotional memory to that. Right. You know, probably drives today you might still have a bias about lawyers. susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. I probably did before. And you know the the I I've since then though I've worked with a lot more lawyers and there's there's a great there's a lot of great lawyers. ⁓ so I'm I've somehow They changed or I've changed or the culture's changed. Andrew Heacock: So what kind of I I can see how w the work you do with authentic ⁓ like r getting real, being authentic, radical authenticity would apply in the corporate setting to conflict management. What does it look like in the context of working with couples? susan campbell: Well, ⁓ mostly couples get into trouble because they don't know how to manage that the trigger reactions that are inevitably gonna be part of a couple relationship. If you have any insecurities at all, maybe they won't come out in the romance stage of the relationship, but after you're feeling a little more secure with this person, I think it's a natural part of human development. For w once you things are kind of stable and secure, more stuff that's a little less conscious starts to bubble up. Needs that you didn't know you had, dissatisfactions that that you didn't know you had. And then so you bring something up. ⁓ ⁓ you seem to talk so much that there's never room for me. So, you know, you bring up like a normal thing like that. ⁓ the other person, so let's say I'm talking to my husband and my and my husband gets his button pushed. He gets triggered and he can't listen to ⁓ my sincere concern. Maybe I didn't couch it, you know, in exactly the right getting real language, like when you the getting real language would be ⁓ when you were talking to Joe and it seemed to go on for ⁓ you know maybe five minutes, I said to myself, How the heck am I gonna get into this conversation? I really wanna get my point of view across. So that would be getting real language, staying on your own side of the net, very disciplined and self-aware. But so we don't do that. We just say, you know, I I wanted to get in and and I couldn't and then partner gets triggered and then I have to teach people And then let's say they get triggered, and then I go, Well, my needs don't matter. You can't even listen to a simple ⁓ need or request of mine. You're getting all upset. So, you know, that's the way it might start out, like kind of normal. But there's a trigger in the space now inside of both people. He's afraid, and let's take a guess here. He he's afraid that he's he's he's being criticized. He's got some deeper fear of being bad or wrong. Something happened a long time ago that has him ⁓ feeling a little defensive about being told or being seen as bad or wrong, or you did something wrong. Now, her tender spot has something to do with my needs don't matter. I speak, but the other person just kind of attacks me for saying my genuine needs. And you can see these, you know. This is vul this is the vulnerability underneath the automatic trigger reaction patterns. You know, she's defending her her right to ask and he's telling her, stop, you know, s stop complaining about me, I'm a good guy, or whatever he says. But what what the marriage counselor has to do is, okay, we're we're we're we're gonna go we're going around in circles here, ⁓ and I Try to show them, are there other you know, are there other cycles like this where you, the wife, try to express needs and the husband somehow sidesteps it or criticizes you, or makes you wrong for how you said it? Okay. So we see the more the more she comes to him with a need, the more he defends and attacks. And the more he defends and attacks, the more she's feeling. unheard and wanting to come with a need again. So couples use usually have some kind of reactive cycle that they can learn to spot with the help of a a counselor. And so that's one of the one of the things is ⁓ this this means we're triggered. When we see ourselves in this cycle it means we're triggered. And then another thing that I have to teach people is okay when you're triggered What do you feel in your body? How do you know you're triggered? What what what's the early warning sign? ⁓ so one thing is body. I'm I'm tense. I have heat in my face. Feel like making a fist. Okay. What goes on in your mind? I think, ⁓ I have to I have to put out this fire. I didn't do anything wrong. I I need I I need to shut this down. So maybe that's what goes on in your mind. and What are your feelings? Well, it's kind of like anger, you know, for example. So I I help people realize that there's some signs both in the reactive cycle and in and in your own physiology and thought process that tells you that you're triggered. And it's very important to recognize those signs as soon as possible so that you can stop doing that because you're just digging your hole deeper. going farther and farther away from each other. So it would be in our best interest, so I have to do a little sales job here, it would be in our best interest to stop that digging of the hole as soon as possible. And how do we do that? Well, we take on the practice of noticing what what I call people's trigger signature, noticing those early warning signs. And then having a pause agreement. So I'll I have to do a lot of education about triggers in in my couple's work. So talk to each other about the need for a pause agreement where you would stop what you're doing and calm your nervous systems down, where both of you would do some what we call self-regulation before trying to have this conversation. So I get them to make a pause agreement and then that's a good first step. Saying pause means I have goodwill toward the couple. I'm trying to save us from from d deeper trouble trouble. And I'm willing to stop talking right now. And the idea is for both of us to stop talking and calm ourselves. So so that's like when you say pause, it's an agreement that two people make. And then once they've shown a willingness to go that far, then we do some you know, other things that Each person can do once they've paused and calmed their nervous system to really bring some tenderness and compassion to the triggered self. And it usually involves connecting with unmet childhood needs or that that general feeling that I mentioned that I had before. I could just feel that they were judging me. Whatever it is, it can be an incident where you were you know you were. physically hurt or whether you were criticized or told to ⁓ keep quiet, your your voice doesn't matter here. We're no, let the adults talk. So some sometimes big trauma, sometimes just l little upsets that you interpreted to mean I'm not supposed to talk. My voice doesn't my voice doesn't matter, that type of thing. So usually if you're quiet with yourself, And sincerely open to seeing what's underneath that defensive reaction or that aggressive reaction with your partner. Things bubble up from the unconscious that are ready, are ready to become conscious. There's probably a lot more that's in the unconscious that never gets a chance to bubble up, but triggers, and triggering that happens in couples is a great way to mine your unconscious and bring it to more consciousness. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, well it's I mean, it's like that's the portal, right? I think was it Carl Young that said until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your your life and you'll call it fate. ⁓ and when you're just all of a sudden you get a huge upspring of like psychic energy or emotion, especially when you're sort of aware that it might be out of proportion to the circumstances, that's a really good indication that your unconscious is at play, right? susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Right. That's right. That's right. Andrew Heacock: So when I mean, I I totally see how just saying pause. I mean, just having the interrupt in the energy of saying pause, let's just pause, especially if that's been an agreed upon thing and there's there's mutual buy-in. And then just taking some time. I mean, ⁓ like after so after someone calls pause during the middle of like a a cycle, ⁓ do you recommend like going to separate corners, going to different parts of the house, leaving, going somewhere else? I mean, just like is physical space good to just allow the energy to dissipate or Like what's that what does that look like? susan campbell: Each couple has to figure that out for themselves, but that is an important question and it does need to to be addressed right away. For at first there's a like a little trial and error for the couple, you know, if if if it wasn't if we didn't go at it for very long, maybe we can just sit here no even knees touching and just each go inside. But if there's been anything that's been like a d a deep ⁓ very very painful ⁓ hard to f hard to let yourself ⁓ feel trigger reaction, ⁓ you ⁓ you might not feel safe with your partner sitting there in the same room. And you you you need to go into separate rooms and you need to be able to say, do we wanna pause for a short, medium, or long time? And long would be like twenty four hours. Y you can figure that out. You know, each couple has their own measuring stick, but Andrew Heacock: What about twenty years? susan campbell: ⁓ that's too long. Too long. Andrew Heacock: Too long, right? To just this is like as at at at what point does it just become bypassing? Like at what point are we just burying? susan campbell: Well, most people do. And so when you sometimes when couples come to couples therapy, we wind up ⁓ handling a a mistr a state of mistrust that has been accumulated for many years, so we have to go back and ⁓ investigate some of the old wounds and o I I o I almost kinda think of them as traumas to the relationship. And and processed something that did happen 20 years ago. You know, I I I was ⁓ going to the hospital to have our first child and you went golfing. I never told you how much that hurt me. That, you know, so people have to unearth things and connect and repair. So re repair it partly just means I'm, you know, I'm I'm sorry you didn't deserve that. that that kind of thing. When it's old, old stuff. Repair also really means in when we talk about old old wounds, really having empathy for your partner's experience. And that can be very healing. Andrew Heacock: I I can so relate to that. I mean, just the experience of someone saying, Yep, you know what, your feelings are valid. Like it's o you're right to be mad. I mean, w the first time I heard that, wow, it was like and far and also when you're really mad at someone and they're like, Yeah, you're totally right, you totally deserve to be mad at me, how it's almost like a it's almost disappointing because then you can't really be mad at them anymore. susan campbell: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Well, you could, but it does disarm it disarms the anger quite a bit. I agree with Andrew Heacock: You know what I mean? I mean, it's like I've had that feedback before where so I've had that feedback. It it does. And some people find it really satisfying to be angry. They don't really want resolution. They just want to be angry. I've had that feedback before from dating with with a romantic partner where they're just like, You're impossible to be mad at for very long. And I'm like, is that a bad thing? And they're like, Well, sorta. You know, I mean, when then someone it just breaks their brain, they don't know how deal with it. But it does actually really help to just have one's experience validate it. susan campbell: It sure does. I mean that's what that's what we ought to aim for. And we ought to aim for when somebody validates my experience, not to jump on their case again, you know, receive that. And maybe if you let yourself receive it, you would not feel so angry anymore and maybe you would be able to let it go. Generally it is, once you validate somebody's experience, they find some peace and healing. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Well, also especially when it's your like when you're it's your romantic partner, you've got a life that you built together. ⁓ and those old wounds too, I love what you said, like the the the relationship itself has a trauma history. And of course it does. I think any any s any long term relationship of any s of any sort of context is gonna have ruptures that take place that you know, and of course that'll sort of leak out into everything else, you know, if we don't if we don't address them. susan campbell: Yeah. Does Yeah, it it does. Andrew Heacock: What about in early relationships, like in dating? how can we use these like these principles of radal radical honesty there? susan campbell: Well, I have a ⁓ philosophy of dating that just like a marriage type relationship can be an inner growth journey, a s a spiritual journey, a healing journey, so can your dating life. And if you could put your attention while you're dating on learning learning to be more spontaneous and transparent with somebody you're just getting to know. Let's say that that's your make that your growth goal rather than getting to the second date or whatever you know it is you're trying to get to happen. Yes, you still try to get things to happen, but your reward is not it happens. Your reward is Whatever happens, if I get what I want or I don't get what I want, I can still learn from this. I can still like work with that inside of myself to see, well, what are my core fears that have me be triggered about not hearing an immediate yes? Maybe I asked for a second date, but it it takes the other person like five seconds to say something. And in that five seconds, I'm getting all triggered. So you get to notice that. Like, what is going on during those five seconds? I'm jumping to conclusions. What is it about me that has me always go real quick to the bad news, the assuming the worst? ⁓ wait, that's something about me that I get to learn from this one little two-minute dating encounter. And so it's you little dating encounters can be great sources of learning about yourself. So that's that's ⁓ the idea so that you don't focus so much on making a good impression, controlling the outcomes so the other person sees you a certain way. But rather you experiment with what you might call being yourself, you know, being real and See how that works out. Because this is a pretty low stakes relationship. You haven't invested that much in this dating relationship. Maybe you still hold every every dating encounter as this big deal. And I'm trying to s sell the idea that if you can make learning more important than having everything turn out the way you want. So I call that, you know, if you can make relating just Being in the present moment, interacting with this person, and and learning how to do that without trying to manipulate and control. So if you can make relating more important than controlling, which is th the other motive that ⁓ most most of us have. That's why we need a 12-step program for the rest of us, because we're all addicted to controlling the outcome of our communications. ⁓ so if you can make relating more important, then you you're gonna come out of this, even if it's like one date or two dates or just a conversation, you're gonna come out of it more of a whole person. It's gonna add to your measure of life experience. But people measure success in dating very differently from that. So I'm trying to change the paradigm of dating here. Andrew Heacock: I I love it. I this ⁓ I this is kind of what made me latch on to your work when I saw your books like Truth in Dating, ⁓ the one of your books you've written. What for me was ⁓ I can relate a lot to this because I've the last year and a half I've I've been out dating and trying to looking for a long term romantic partner. And it it it has been absolutely vital to my progress to just look at it as practice. Like I every every encounter, I just look at it as practice. And you're right. I mean, letting go of any sort of outcome. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: It just makes everything easier. And of course, this is one of life's many paradoxes. By letting go of the outcome, the outcomes tend to come a lot easier. You know, like things tend to work out much better because you're just not anxious. You're not, you're not trying to contort yourself into whatever this person's going to approve of. Of course, people can just smell that. I I don't know. I think there might be there I this might be a gendered thing. Women who I'm dating definitely seem to be able to smell in authenticity. There just seems to be a sensitivity to it. ⁓ susan campbell: That's right. Andrew Heacock: And so yeah, it's just like if you look at every encounter of, okay, can I practice being present? Like can I practice being equ like equanimous? Can I just have equanimity with whatever comes up? And can I really actually just focus on getting to know this person so that I can maybe start to think about how I feel about them before I'm just worried about controlling how they feel about me? It's a real game changer. ⁓ and that's again sort of a privilege that you have when you're able to have a calm nervous system. Which for me is where everything starts. If you don't have a calm nervous system, none of these things will help. None of the things we talk about on my podcast are really gonna do much. You really have to start with triaging, you know, safety in the body. But then once you get there, the things you can do with it are really, really fun. susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Andrew. And and sometimes maybe you're nervous on the date and you s start to talk real fast and you know, you're interrupting the other person and that sort of thing. And then you catch yourself. You notice. See if you can be maybe you get a little automatic, but then you get aware s no before too long, you know, you don't let it go on for, you know, more than a minute. And then you go, Hey, could I could I start over? I realize that the way I'm talking is coming from a kind of anxious feeling that I I kind of want to perform well, you know. And I I think what I really need to say is ⁓ I'm hoping this will lead to a second date with you. What are the chances of that? You know, when you come right out and you say what's been on your mind. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it this is again one of the things where authenticity is a beautiful gift. When you're nervous, the real solution to that is being like, ⁓ I'm sorry, I'm a little bit nervous. And it, you know, it I it would be better if you weren't nervous at all, but you are. That's not the option that's on the table. You can either pretend it's not true and it'll be really obvious. For me, I run my mouth. I just talk too much and I talk without knowing that I'm talking, and inevitably I say something thoughtless. And so, you know, it's one of those things where it also helps to have self compassion. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Andrew Heacock: If you can't have self-compassion, you can't really admit when you're nervous or you know, I'm sorry, I'm just distracted by this thing that happened, or whatever. I mean, these things come up and sometimes people drop things on me, like they'll say something, and it's like, I don't know what to say. I used to be so I used to have so much shame about not knowing the right thing to say. And I thought it was like this evidence that I was socially handicapped and I had this terrible infirmity. And now I realize that when you don't know what to say. Sometimes the only thing you can do is to say, you know, I'm not sure what to say. It's such it's just, it's a human thing, you know, it's it's human to be to have flaws, to not know, to not be sure, to not get things perfectly. And ⁓ yeah, definitely like on first dates. So much of dating now, this is something I think a lot about and ⁓ been thinking about helping men and you know, w relate to women and have, you know, better experiences in the dating world to try to find love. So much of it is algorithmically driven. It starts with apps. susan campbell: Absolutely. That's beautiful. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: And these are, you know, it's almost like a it's like a personal ad for yourself, but it's of course people are going to try to present themselves in the best light. Of course. You know, they'll use the best photographs of themselves, even if sometimes they're a little bit out of date. ⁓ but then they also, you know, they'll say one would think the the natural thing would be on your dating profile to lead with the things about yourself that are the most appealing that are going to give you the most options. Although some people make some really curious susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: choices with that where I'm like, this is what you're leading with, really. ⁓ you know, ⁓ so I, you know, I I on my I've looked at a couple dating apps in the last year and it's an interesting experience. I'm only seeing women and ⁓ some of them will just be like, I am not like if you are a conservative, don't swipe on me. Like it's just saying like I don't want you if you're this. They're trying to filter people out. And I'm like, that's an interesting strategy. As a man, that's not the way I would go. I want the maximum options to s to sort through. But there is something I've been wondering about is whether when you do get to a first date, susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: you're interacting with someone, there's another nervous system there that you can kind of feel, which for me, the big flaw in dating apps is that you can't, you can't co-regulate it all. You don't really know what you're gonna, you don't know what you're gonna get until that first date. And I've had dates where within, within one minute, literally well, well under one minute, I knew there was no way. Like I could just tell by the way I felt when I was around the person. but there is something I've thought about of on the first date, instead of like leading with your best, like leading with your worst, like, do you think there's any merit to that of just saying like Here's the red flags about me. Like let's just get them out on the table. We'll compare and see are these things that that we can work with. Because it in theory would save some time and it's also kind of authentic. susan campbell: Well, here's one thing I wanna say to that is I would not recommend going immediately from texting or emailing to meeting in person. I think talking on the phone gives you a lot of data that can save you a lot of time, going out to meet somebody 'cause for for me, going out to meet somebody is a big deal. Talking on the phone is n no big deal and I could find out a lot of the things you know, that look, if I've you know, if I've been divorced four times and I'm not a Christian, w no, where you stand on stuff like that? And you just you know, you ask questions like that. ⁓ like you know, like you're saying what would disqualify me. I I I wouldn't launch into the disqualifying conversation without framing it, without saying, you know, I think it's might be fun, might be ⁓ Save us a lot of a lot of time if we just reveal some of the things that other people have found fault with us about, you know, like what have other people criti criticized you for? I I I think that the conversation of what are your faults is too generic. I mean, people will just say a bunch of platitudes, even if it's like, you know, I'm I'm a procrastinator, I've never made much money. Well, some of no, some of those generalizations are useful. when I'm screening for a mate. But I'd r I'd I'd rather hear how they think, how do they come to that conclusion? Like this person said this about me and this is the way I see that. You know, I think this part's true of me, this part's not. So I'm always interested in how people construct reality. And ⁓ you know, so just labels, you know, I'm a procrastinator. It doesn't quite Do it for me, although if they'll indulge me and I'll say, well, tell me more about you being a procrastinator. Now if they'll if if they can handle questions like that, then ⁓ no points for that. Then they're then they're they're back in my acceptable zone. but I I for one, and no, you you said something, Andrew, about wanting to throw out to the widest possible field, I'm the exact opposite. I want to narrow the field. in my profile as ⁓ as much as possible, you know, because I don't wanna get sent people who don't who who don't fit my age or ⁓ you know political spectrum if that's important. That that sort of thing. If they don't if I wanna have kids and they don't want to have kids, I wanna Put that right down there. You know, if I'm monogamous and they're not, I want to make sure I put those, especially kids and monogamy, are are like huge things that that partners are need to be compatible on. And so many people ignore that. I can't even believe it. You know, try to change your partner to be non-monogamous. You know, good luck. They'll do it. But it it it it'll cost you a lot and and and it won't it it probably won't be probably won't be ⁓ sustainable. You know, it might work for a while. So s so those are my thoughts on on that. Andrew Heacock: It won't work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I Yeah, so it's like filters basically, like you're just kind of filtering out people that are just obviously incompatible. right. For example like susan campbell: Well, f I mean not everybody wants to do that because you can say, Well, gee, you know, my girlfriend is b is is married to a Trumpster and they're as happy as can be. So who am I to make that determination so early in the game? You know, everybody's different. If you're really open minded like that, go ahead. I I I I'm I have a very narrow well course I'm I'm more or less married now. We're not married, but it's it's a it's a marriage. But I did a lot of online dating and ⁓ I I always had good luck with it. I had great luck. And so did my partner. He did a lot of online dating. We were good daters, but we followed all these all all these ⁓ prescriptions because I mean I follow prescriptions that work for me. Some of mine won't work for you, but I wanna give you permission to screen out people if you know, if if you're just operating on some mindset that who am I to reject anybody without ever meeting them? Well whatever you know, y you're in charge. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, well, ⁓ and the way that a lot of these apps are working now, it's like you can set filters where you're not even gonna see someone, especially like for age or height. This is something that's very controversial that like men tend to filter women by age and women tend to filter men by height. and so like in that, you know, that's just kind of an absolute thing. And it's like really like would one inch of height make that big of a difference? if maybe it's just a really extraordinary guy, you know, you could look by it by it, or a woman who is one year older than you, and is that really that big of a deal? susan campbell: Mm. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: ⁓ but and so I my philosophy is just like on the app in terms of just who I'm able to see, I would want to cast a fairly wide net, but I can also it one thing I've learned from that experience, I mean it's not really my style to to use those apps, I'd rather meet people in in places where we we have common interests. but what I found is that I've learned a lot by casting a wide net. I learned a lot about what I want. susan campbell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Andrew Heacock: And so like you might have a lot more clarity at your point in life of like what you're looking for, what your no's are, what your areas of incompatibility were me, I was just kind of figuring it out. And I realized pretty quickly, like anyone for whom like politics or culture wars is an important part of their life, that's not going to be a good fit for me. Like you can just and some people will just kind of lead with that where they're like, ⁓ you know, it's just right on their bio that they're like. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Fuck ice and like that everything. And it's just like that's their bio. That's about me is just this one political statement. And it's like, even if I'm inclined to agree with a sentiment, ⁓ if that's the most important thing that you want me to know about you, then we're probably not like compatible. and ⁓ so there is things like that, or someone that's like a very conservative Christian, I've also realized like there's just no, there's no compatibility there ⁓ between us. And so you're you're right, but all it's also like I don't know that I would want to filter someone out. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: purely on that basis because it's also like on an app, if someone's just clicking a box that says Christian, well, I don't really know what that means. There's some Christians that are like highly unconventional. And so there's kind of a total package that you want to see. But again, for me the best thing is just meet someone in person. If you hit it off, you have a spark. A lot of people find it hard to do that today, but there's there's a movement back to like getting out and and meeting people in person. COVID really kind of accelerated our our move indoors, but ⁓ susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Right. True. True. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: I wanna go back to Aston this question about like leading with the red flags. susan campbell: Yeah, yeah. So so that's good. I'm glad you fleshed that out, Andrew, for people who are more on on your side of the spectrum 'cause that sound that that sounds good to me. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Well, so here's the thing. It it there is a very clear male-female divide on dating apps because men and women tend to have very different experiences on dating apps. Men might, if they're lucky, get a few matches a week, and women might get hundreds a day. And so if you're a woman, your problem is filtering. Like, you know, I I need to sort through this. And it's just kind of the nature of dating and mating in humans is that the women are choosier. And ⁓ so susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: For me as a man, I don't I don't necessarily want to limit my options more than they already may be. While at the same time, like I've used filters and there are things where I'm like, Yeah, I don't think I would date someone who's 10 years older than me. Like I think that's probably a limit on for me would be a little weird. ⁓ and also on the other side too, like I'm not gonna date a 21 year old. I'm I'm almost 40. Like that just wouldn't work for me. I would I I don't I would have no idea what the hell to talk to a 21 year old about. ⁓ you know. So there, you know, there's there's things there, but again, like susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: You never know. When you meet someone in person, I mean, a lot of time I'm not thinking about if I have a connection with someone, I'm not thinking about how old they are. ⁓ it like it just kind of nature knows like we're if we're about the same age and it it fits. I did want to ask about this this red flag thing idea because there's a a distinction I've been kind of wrestling with, which is leading with thing I I I love what you said about turning it into a game. That's exactly the kind of thing I would do. I'd be like, let's play a game like where we list our own three biggest red flags, like like just susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: For fun. You know, and then it's a fun thing because otherwise it'll turn into a job interview where someone's like, My biggest flaw is that I'm just so loyal. You know, I'm just, I'm just too I'm I'm I'm just too generous and too honest and people can't handle it. yeah, people just can't handle how how amazing I am. And when you do get into it, you start to learn where it's like, ⁓ really everybody you've ever dated was a narcissist, every single one. You know, and the thing is it's like maybe, maybe, in which case you're just you're picking the wrong people and you're not gonna susan campbell: Yeah, right. That does sound like a job interview, right. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: What is that? And then it's kind of like, what do you think about me? or it's also like, okay, maybe you have a problem with taking responsibility and that, like, that that's an issue. But I also, one thing I've been trying to to learn to navigate is self-disclosure. Like when you do have a traumatic past, ⁓ there's this term trauma dumping. And I got ⁓ a friend ⁓ who is a female, she was a therapist. She told me at a at a retreat, this is not a romantic partner or a date, but it was just at a retreat. She told me it's like, you you t you have a tendency to trauma dump a little bit. And I think that might be. susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Causing you to attract the wrong kind of person and might be more importantly pushing away the kind of women that you want to attract. And I was really grateful to her. I've told her many times just for get that honesty. but there's the it is a difficult thing to navigate of learning when do you reveal these things, at what rate do you reveal these things, especially if for me, my trauma history is an important part of why I do this. Like it's what got me interested in wanting to talk to people like you about relationships. susan campbell: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: It's what's gotten me interested in psychology in the mind. And all I really do is think about thinking. And I'm really passionate about it. And so I'm still trying to kind of navigate, especially if I'm going out with someone who's a therapist. Then it's a, you know what I mean? Like there's a cur and they also have their traumatic past. How do you flesh out or how should I flesh out when to know how to, you know, start to reveal things like that? susan campbell: Mm. Well, I might say, is it time to start talking about ⁓ things that might cause you to reject me? ⁓ I might ask the other person. Or or or do you and give and I would usually give a multiple choice when I'm when I'm starting a a somewhat like challenging question where they may not have even thought about that before. Whoa, that shocked me. Or ⁓ or do you just wanna ⁓ keep Talking about our current life and how our lives are these days. So you might give up, you know, choice. Is it time to ch talk about this or do you want to just do this? so that's one way to introduce that. another would be like you said a minute ago, introduce it sort of as a game. I've got this idea. And I've not done this before on a date, or maybe I've done this a few times on a date. and it it really gets people to know each other very very quickly. And well, maybe it's a little scary, but here's here's an here's my idea, and you tell me what you think of it. And then you propose the idea of ⁓ what would most people be scared off by if they knew this about you in terms of Further relating, you know, something like that. The word red flags may be a little too generic. I I like to give it a little more ⁓ specificity than that. But for you, maybe use the word red flags. It's it's natural for you. We each have to find our own, you know, our own way of thinking and speaking about this stuff. But I I think you do want to set the context in some way and Get the other person's buy and see if they're interested. And if they see say they're okay with it, but you can see their body language isn't, you might go, Well, I I I noticed you leaned back after ⁓ after you said that. ⁓ what was that? Are you are you s thinking maybe you don't want to do this, even though you said yes? So, no. I'd say feel free to you're never telling somebody what they think, but you're noticing cues and you're asking them a little more about themselves. And for me, it's very important to be with somebody who would be able to handle that kind of question. I don't mean that they have a quick, slick answer. They might say, Whoa, I don't know. I I didn't realize I did that. You know, they might just go silent for a little bit and say, Well let me let me check in and see what was going on there. Somebody who can stay present to the question but not necessarily g give you a slick, perfect sounding answer. So I'm screening I'm screening for realness, you know. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, well if they Right. Yeah. Yeah. And me well, me too. I mean, you know, I we made this joke earlier where but I'm like, you know, if I'm going out with someone who's not in therapy and never has been, it it I mean, in theory it could just be a really well adjusted person. You know, I mean, ⁓ they they they must exist. you know, I mean, but I d I don't know. I I mean ⁓ but ⁓ it to me it's such an important part of my life to do my own work that I want someone else that at least can just can has a shared it's not necessarily about their the other person's health necessarily. susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: I because I've I've gone out with people who I thought were were quite mentally healthy, but they just didn't have a common interest, I think. It's just like there's there was kind of a lack of like shared values or experience with it. But yeah, if you if you were to ask someone the question and they were to get frazzled, be what do you mean? Why do I have to have a red flag? You're a red flag. Like that's a that's really good information. You know, and if you take if you treat dating, early dating especially as just a learning opportunity. As a growth having a growth mindset about it basically. it you can play a little bit more with these things and just to have a little bit more fun and to ask, you know. The term red flag is just so much in the zeitgeist now that there's a little bit of a it's become it's becoming almost comical. So it's kind of a less threatening way to just leave with it. And it could also be a silly thing, like, yeah, mine is that I put pineapple on pizza. And it's like, okay, like that the if that's if that's where the spirit of that's what the person can handle and like that's fine. ⁓ susan campbell: Yeah. True. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ the the the the way that you worded the question though is like what's one thing that you worry that people might reject you if they knew about? That's a really vulnerable like that that really gets to vulnerability. It was beautifully worded. ⁓ to just to ask it that way. It almost gets into like shadow work. That's the kind of question that I would ask myself in shadow work is what's something that I'm most afraid of people finding out about me. susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah, and those of us the ⁓ those of you who are listening to this conversation, don't try to imitate me. It's gotta be your own and you know, and like and Andrew's showing his language, ⁓ it's gotta be your own language, your own way of thinking. so ⁓ may maybe I'm really comfortable asking those really probing questions, because I seem I seem to be perceived by the other always as safe. People don't even though I ask probing questions, people don't give me feedback that that I'm unsafe or they feel attacked or or in intruded upon. And l lot of us f fear being intrusive when when we're curious about things. I'm I'm tentative enough in the way I ask things that ⁓ I think that is a little bit disarming, which in my world is a good thing. Andrew Heacock: I I've gotten the same exact feedback actually, ⁓ that I'm safe. And I think it's because of I do this. So I ask I'm I'm used to asking probing questions and asking follow up questions, but it's another form of vulnerability to ask someone a vulnerable question that requires them to be vulnerable because in order to ask a deep question, ⁓ you have to be prepared for someone to to not handle it well. Like you gotta prepare for someone to get really defensive and take it very personally or or you know. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: And or and be ready to not take things personally, which I think has a lot to do with all of this, is you know, if if you can be authentic, you don't have to take everything so damn personally. You know, it's not really about your ego or anything like that. You can just be like, okay, I just, you know, was curious, wanted to know about that. And I used to be so afraid to ask people anything below the surface. I felt like I was just I was captured by small talk, and which is people basically talking without really being present for the conversation. You know, that's really what small talk is. susan campbell: Mm. Andrew Heacock: And I was always just like, I just want to get to it. And people, you know, you say, people are like, hey, how are you? Fine. How are you? And nobody is communicating any actual substance in that, in that conversation. And and you know, sometimes people I used to have a law professor, you know, who would just say something like, he's like, ⁓ you know, I've got a really bad boil on my ass, but like I'm doing it, or something like that. He would just say something really unexpected that to kind of interrupt. And it was so funny, you know, he was he was very eccentric and strange. susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: But he was like, you know, I'm getting old and it sucks, but like my ass hurts all the time. And you know, it's just there's something like that. And it was really funny. But he would it was ⁓ number one, a way of punishing people who didn't really want to know how he was doing, which is not punishing, but like training them that, like, if you want to know how I'm doing, that's that's what you should ask. ⁓ you know, but I would be I would feel so trapped in things like elevators or when I'm someone's checking me out at a grocery store and I would feel a lot of shame about it. And susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: It was mostly because I was too afraid to be vulnerable enough to risk asking a vulnerable question. It's like a double vulnerability that you need to have. But I've learned through a lot of hell of a lot of practice, a lot of yoga. Like yoga is a great for calming the nervous system, just just being tired too. is I you know, I almost never get negative feedback from it and like from total strangers. People want to be understood and susan campbell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Asking the the questions, asking those follow-ups. And for me, one of my favorite ones to ask is, what was that like? I mean, you know, I mean, it's just it it and it doesn't have to get sometimes can people it can just be experiential and they'll Well, you know, this thing happened and that thing happened and that thing happened. But a lot more often people are just like, God, it was so fucking hard. You know, they don't yeah, I mean, or or whatever or you know, whatever it was for them, or like, ⁓ my god, it was the best time of my life. It puts them in an emotional experience. susan campbell: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrew Heacock: And ⁓ I find that this has been this is great for dating, ⁓ also because you can really get to know someone on a deeper level. And I get a lot of feedback about this. There are people like, you ask great questions and you're really safe about it. And I'm like, that's good. I'm trying to I'm trying to to turn it into a career. So this is good news. This is a good sign. But you know, it does help if you're at you've gotta actually be prepared for someone to susan campbell: No. Mm-hmm. Andrew Heacock: not like it, but it just I it never actually happens to me that way. People, if you're gentle about it, if and I think that's what you were saying with your style as well, you just you're practiced in it. It's your job to do it, to ask these questions and sometimes to ask hard questions that it just is sort of disarming. And it's a it's a beautiful thing to be able to do that. And it again, like to be to beat a dead horse here, it all starts with nervous system safety. For me, that was the thing that changed everything for me. Once I finally was able to calm my nervous system and stop being triggered susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: all the time, ⁓ I was able to do it, which leads me conveniently to your most recent book, From Trigger to Tranquil. What can you tell us about that? susan campbell: First I'm gonna go to the bathroom, then I'll come back. Andrew Heacock: Okay, go for it. Okay. So triggered to tranquil. susan campbell: So yeah, I have I have this book from Trigger to Tranquil, and this is what it looks like. And it's basically a workbook that helps you accept that you probably will get triggered sometimes, even on a date. So it help it's got the five steps of trigger work. First, ex accepting, then being able to Calm your nervous system when you are triggered. So we've talked about that. You know, it's like the pause in a couple, but you can pause yourself even when nobody else is trying to interact with you. And then you need to learn the early warning sick actually, you need to learn the early warning signals of w what happens in your nervous system and in your thoughts when you're triggered. So actually you you you have to learn that first. And then that will teach you when to pause when you notice the the trigger reactions that are kind of like your signature. And then you need to bring compassion, once you've paused and regulated compassion to that wound place inside yourself that has echoes of childhood wounds of some sort. And when I'm working myself with people one-on-one, I will just gently guide them to explore what was the feeling that came up after you heard that person say, ⁓ I don't know why I'm married to you. You know, they said that and that triggered you. and what were the thoughts and the fear stories? Like, I better start backing away because I'm about to get hurt or I'm about to get broken up with. So just noticing the different data points that tell you you're triggered, ⁓ and then following, no, so I help people follow the one, whatever data point is most salient at that moment. And almost always, I've learned this from my clients, Andrew. I didn't read this in a book, that people will go to ⁓ memories of old wounds. That they never fully felt. They didn't let themselves feel some of the feelings, they just suppressed them and dissociated because it wasn't safe then. And even now it doesn't feel safe. So you have to really create a lot of safety in the moment with with the person. And and you can learn how to do this yourself. This book is how to do self-therapy with your triggers. But I'm I'm and I'm so the things that I'm telling you that I do with clients. I've got chapters on how to do that with yourself. And so when an old memory comes up, the idea is to breathe and kind of surround that with some space. Like this is the mindfulness ⁓ witnessing, like witnessing the reaction with a compassionate heart. And you you're you're kind of like holding space for this That's like a much-loved child. And so when you can create that safety, you allow yourself to go a little more into the painful feeling. And you do this numerous times, and eventually you learn that you can regulate yourself when this kind of painful thing comes up, so that you don't have to be so afraid of emotional pain. Plus, when you go into the pain, the old pain I'm talking about, that's triggered by a adult interaction, when you go into it, you also get inwardly stronger and more able to handle a little more emotional pain. Because the emotional pain that that would have truly interrupted your development, and actually did to a degree, when you were little, now when it happens, it doesn't have that impact. you know, you're already developed. ⁓ in fact it gives you an opportunity to go back and and heal some of those assaults to your early development. So you learn you learn all all of those things by ⁓ working with this book almost like a work book. And ⁓ the thing I wanted to say about like dating for example, because you were talking about dating before that, and I thought of this was ⁓ Well, sometimes you will get triggered on a date, inconveniently, but it it will happen. And but if you can go th if you've gone through some of these steps, you can maybe just say, you know, I need a moment. That type of thing. If if that that just that phrase, I I need a moment here. I need, you know, I need to connect with myself a little bit. And it's acceptable. When you have that much awareness to ask for that, it doesn't usually scare the other person because you are managing your own reactivity. It will scare the other person if you act out your reactivity on them. But then there's also a way back to connection, and that's called repair. And the final step in these the steps of trigger work is repair. 'Cause most of the time a trigger reaction will happen in the presence of somebody else and you will have done something that e either you're ashamed of or that maybe damage the connection, damaged the trust. So you might have to go back and say, you know, when I said that, I was triggered. It was probably my old fear of not being good enough coming up. You didn't deserve that. so just know that that was the triggered me. But I'm no l I'm no longer there now. I'm I'm back, that type of thing. So that's the that's the trigger work. Andrew Heacock: Yeah. ⁓ what I've ⁓ known people who would use that though as kind of as an excuse, like as a way to bypass responsibility and just be like, ⁓ I'm sorry, I was triggered as if that excuses everything that they did. is there a way to communicate that like when you've been triggered, that you're not seeing it as just like, Okay, but I'm triggered, so it's it's not a thing. Yeah, you're obligated to just let it go. susan campbell: Yeah. Well, when you're first doing this, like in a an important relationship, you you reveal, you know, you always start by, that was my trigger and it was my fear coming up. So I'm not blaming you for any of this. ⁓ so you you go through that enough with this person so that later on you might be able to use the shorthand. You know, I was triggered, I didn't mean it, because they know that you are taking responsibility and you're not just u using it as an excuse. If you expect somebody to just like forgive you or get back into connection when you just say, ⁓ I ⁓ I was triggered, don't no, don't pay any attention to that. Some people can handle that as a as a reasonable r repair, but like you're saying, a l a lot of people, especially if you aren't sincere, ⁓ and you know, 'cause some people are using it just to get out of something. the devil made me do it, type of a thing, you know. Andrew Heacock: Exactly. It's my triggers. It wasn't me. It was the it's your fault. You triggered me. susan campbell: But if yeah, if there's any edge of blame on there, it will definitely not work. But if you've if you s if you're saying and meaning I was triggered and that that r really was me being ⁓ out of out of my ⁓ out of my mind, out of my body, n not really present. ⁓ and you and you you don't have to say all that, but you mean that. you you do c you can kind of get that across, but i if you're not meaning that this is my stuff and I own it and I want you to know that it doesn't you know it's not about you. No, if you if you can get that across with just a few words, try it. ⁓ I don't want to make any phrase like always wrong, ⁓ but I do acknowledge that ⁓ Be careful about using that, just like Andrew said, be careful about using that as an excuse just to get on to the next thing in the conversation. Because you need to you need to know how that behavior impacted the other person. That's part of repair too. Both people in repair, both people get a turn to talk. And there's in the book I have scripts for how how to how to do repair. But it is important to if somebody says they're triggered and you are pretty sure that you ⁓ that they know what they mean by that and they're and they're not ⁓ blaming you, it still might be hard for you to let go. ⁓ he says he was triggered, but ⁓ he probably really means it. So that's one of those pitfalls of the whole trigger process is Andrew Heacock: Yeah that susan campbell: It's very hard to forget what your partner, especially in an intimate relationship or a parent-child, very hard to forget what your partner said about you when they were triggered, because it might it might have been very hurtful. And so you might need more, you know, I need more than that. I need you to tell I need you to make amends or I need you to listen to how that really impacted me. And I want to Feel that you got it. So some sometimes if the person d does a crummy repair with you, you've got to ask for more. Andrew Heacock: That's great point. I mean, I've also even thought about circumstances where people have blamed things they did on the fact that they were drunk. And it's like, well, yeah, that I mean, you can it obviously this incredibly stupid thing you did is not something you would have done sober, but that doesn't really absolve you of the responsibility for for the impact it had on other people. And I think that's an important thing where it's because I mean, obviously the people that have a traumatic history deserve our compassion, as does everyone, because we all have our we all have our things. ⁓ but susan campbell: Mm-hmm. Right. Andrew Heacock: It is, you do have to, I think, ⁓ be mindful of when we our own triggers affect other people, it's on us to take responsibility for that. It does help, I think, for people to know, look, I was not, ⁓ you know, I didn't do this intentionally. I wasn't trying to hurt you. This happened, I got triggered, and I know it hurt you very badly. And it, you know, I want to take responsibility for that and have a conversation about that now. ⁓ it's just it's really a different attitude, and you're right. There's no one phrase that's like magic words. susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: But I've just been in situations where people have made amends with me. Like they've had a 12-step obligation to make amends. And when someone's really sincere, it just lands way differently than when someone is doing it so that you'll you know, you'll leave them alone about it. Basically because they they they want to be absolved of the anxieties they feel about knowing they've done something wrong. And that's not really the same as as really wanting to repair. susan campbell: Yeah. That's right. And if you if you repair you call it repair and you say, ⁓ please forgive me that I da-da-da. That's ⁓ that's a n lousy repair. You do have to take responsibility for the consequences of all your actions, but I'm mostly speaking to the person who the action the action was like hurtful to. Remember that that really isn't. that whole person and they may not really have meant that. No, like try to try to ⁓ work with your own fears and your own triggers about, ooh, ooh, I know. I mean, he said something about my body, and I know he secretly thinks that. ⁓ you know, those those are things that are said from a triggered state. It is hard. To let go of it, but I'm I'm talking to you people right now. When you're the recipient of somebody's triggered behavior and they admit that it was their stuff, do your best to let them let them off the hook in a sense, but also say, look, if this happens again, I, you know, this is too destabilizing for me. And ⁓ there will be consequences. You know, I'll walk out, I'll you do need to protect yourself from another person's. ⁓ reactive behavior. That's your responsibility though. It's their responsibility that they do it, but y you're not a victim. You can say, I don't tolerate this, I don't own what you're saying about me. I'm I'm getting in the car and I I'll be I'll be back in two hours. Andrew Heacock: Pause. Yeah, you gotta you gotta you gotta take your own pause. Yeah. susan campbell: Mm. Take your own pause. The person's if the person's too agitated to to manage a pause and that'll happen. Andrew Heacock: Right, right. Sometimes sometimes people just can't pause. Yeah, they've got too anger and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna force a I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna pause myself and you can just you know. susan campbell: Yeah. And that happens and you know, there's a lot of messes that happen in relationships and don't get in a relationship if you can't handle messes. learn. Andrew Heacock: That's true. Like you're kind of signing up for who do you want to get into messes with is kind of the process of of finding a partner. It's like, yeah, whose mess do I want to do I want to get into? Yeah, yeah, yeah. so I think we've come to the end of our time. ⁓ I just want to say thank you so much for coming on, sharing your experience and your knowledge and kind of wisdom you've gained over your career. ⁓ is there anything else that you would like to share with us before we conclude? susan campbell: That's right. That's right. I love that. That's great. That's really good. No, I'm just I'm really impressed with you, Andrew, and I I like how you think and it's been a a joy to have this conversation with you. And I I hope you find the woman of your dreams if that's what you're looking for. Andrew Heacock: Thank you. Well, you know, it's a process. It's been a growth process though. Yeah, I would like to find that ⁓ one day, but I'm also it doesn't have to be tomorrow. And ⁓ the more I look, the more I grow and the more I learn. So that's that's a good thing. You know, if there's who doesn't want more growth and more learning. ⁓ but thank you so much for your feedback about ⁓ like in the way I think. ⁓ it it really means a lot when people tell me that and ⁓ I appreciate it. I I spend most of my time thinking about thinking. susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: So it I I appreciate it when when people, you know, notice that kind of thing. ⁓ so thank you so much, Susan. I've really enjoyed this and ⁓ it's been a wonderful, wonderful conversation. ⁓ Susan, you're can you hold your book up again for us? susan campbell: Yeah. Andrew Heacock: Yeah, from susan campbell: From triggered to tranquil. Andrew Heacock: And we'll drop a ⁓ a link to buy that ⁓ in the ⁓ in the comments on the video. Okay, thank you so much, Susan. susan campbell: Good. It this'll definitely make your life a lot better. Andrew Heacock: I love it. I love it. Thank you so much.