Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 286 - That Girl, Those Stairs

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JFK Assassination - Ep. 286 - That Girl, Those Stairs · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

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Section one oh seven of the Fair Use Act of nineteen seventy six provides protection
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to use copyrighted material for research, analysis, education, and commentary purposes.
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We hear at Loose Moose Productions reserve that right now, on with the show.
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Here's Joe b and the Triple b Hey, and you Dene house things
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in Texas. Everything is going to hail down here in duston Janz, Jimmie
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and Joey, Joey and then Joe man a Yummy and Joey Drop John Gay
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Joe Joy and Joey, Joey and Jim and Jobby and Joey, Joggy Yo
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Rat Shiny jem je and here we go and here we go. That's right.
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What's up, everybody, It's your boy, the Triple be Big Bad
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Bob here with you again, along with the hatless bearded Beast from the Northeast.
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Mister Joe Borelli. What's up, Joe Hey? What's up? Good
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evening everyone? How is how is your week? My week? Very slow
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to get here, but we're here. It's Friday. We're gonna have fun.
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We've got a killer show for you, all about Victoria Adams and and
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her story and it's gonna kind of continue a theme out from Roger Craig about
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people that have claimed that, you know, the Warrant Commission kind of mess
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with your testimony if you will, or changed elements of their story to benefit
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the Warren Commission conclusions. So that was the basis of doing this show,
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and I don't think I've ever done one just about Vicky. But her story
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is very important and it needs to be told, and it is complicated,
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but we're going to try to make it as easy to understand as possible because
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if her story is true, then it presents a big problem to the official
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narrative of the entire assassination and Oswald being the lone assassin. So we'll get
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into all that, I promise, But I think Joe has something he would
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like to share with everyone. Hopefully you guys listen to the last Quick Hits
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episode. Yes, so I actually have some bed news. Rob. We
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can't do this topic because we got one hundred dollars physical super chat every page
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in the world, the seventy one pages of everyone involved that you refer to
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on Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no
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one gave me one hundred dollars. We'll split it. One hundred dollars is
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not going through eight hundred names, dude, there's no way. Okay,
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well, let me just say this. I got through about fourteen of them,
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and then I got to Sammy G. Davis Junior and Ruth Buzzy and
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I decided it was yeah, I think we'll skip doing that, Joe,
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I'll give you a hundred dollars to not do it. About that, I'll
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make two. Then there you go, one from our our our others named,
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and one hundred from you do it in your on your own time,
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sir. Okay. So, I think I figured we'd start things off a
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little differently this show. I would like to present, if you will,
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a new fun fact. It's fun fact Friday people. So I'm from an
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area in Virginia, kind of nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains in the Shenandoah
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Valley, about an hour from DC. But it's country enough, obviously,
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But I came across a very cool fun fact that i'd like to share with
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everybody real quick before we get the show started. And maybe it's something we'll
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do on a regular basis. If you dig it, let me know if
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you do. If you say, hey, Rob don't do that ever again.
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I won't, I promise, Okay, But here we go. Here's
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a fun story. So there was a fellow by the name of Andrew Pitts
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and a woman by the name of Martha Stroud. They met and were married
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in a small Quaker ceremony in Frederick County, Virginia in seventeen fifty That's where
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I am presently located. In Frederick County. The Quaker presence was steadily growing
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in the Lower Shenandoah Valley during this time. Andrew's father was named John Pitts
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and his grandfather was Colonel Robert Pitts, one of the first settlers who came
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to the Isle of Wight, Virginia around sixteen thirty seven. Prior to arriving
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in Virginia, Colonel Pitts was the captain of the ship called Thunder, a
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privateer out of Bristol, England, so it was pirateship. The ship helped
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the Huguenots in the war against France in sixteen twenty eight. In sixteen twenty
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eight, and now he was in America and the Pitt's line had just begun.
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By seventeen fifty five, the Pitts of Frederick County had moved to Rowan
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County, North Carolina. They had followed a new congregation of Quakers who were
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given permission to build a new settlement and meeting house there Now. Andrew Pitts
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died in seventeen seventy two, but his sons carried on the family name.
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The eldest son, William, moved away in eighteen forty one, marrying his
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wife Cynthia, in Jasper, Alabama, and changing the family name from Pitts
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to Pitt. By eighteen seventy the family was in Fannin County, Texas,
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and the nineteen ten sentence the heirs of William and Cynthia Pitt were in spring
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Hill, Louisiana. The youngest son, Oliver Pitt, would be born in
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Texas in eighteen ninety one. He married somebody named Rosie Dorris and they moved
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to Oklahoma, and they would have one son named Alvin. Alvin's son,
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Bill was born in Shawnee, Oklahoma in nineteen forty one, and he would
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meet and marry Jane Ata Hillhouse. They would have a son born in Shawnee,
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Oklahoma, who they named William Bradley Pitt. The world would come to
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know him is the actor Brad Pitt. So pretty wild stuff, that's true.
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Fun fact Friday, just something neat that happened around me. And you
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know, these these if these people would have never met and married in Frederick
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County many many moons ago there, the world would not know Brad Pitt ever
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existed. No fight Club, you know, Yeah, no Money Train,
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Yeah uh you got no Brad Pitt movies, Joe, That's okay. I
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live lover Pit. I mean in a you know, non Perry So type
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of way. But yeah, fight Club is a great movie for sure.
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All right, so let's get into the Victoria Adams story. Yes, let's
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uh, thank you Gregory Stewart, and thank you John Naylor as well before
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the show for your five dollars super chants. Ah, yes, thank you,
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thank you, thank you, thank you Hillis, and thank you everyone
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South of the West Garden Guns, Betty Bungled, Gregory Stewart, Ashley Hey
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Bungled is a Huguenot. Well will you Brad Pitt's ancestors fought, y'all.
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So, but luckily they did not kill your ancestors. And you're here now,
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so the world is a much better place with you. And Brad Pitt
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in it. So, but Joe, let's get into a little bit about
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Victoria Adams. Now. The reason her story is important, okay, is
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here's what she claims, Okay, that her and three co workers were standing
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on the fourth floor, okay, at an open window. Now, if
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you're looking at the school book Depository from the front, you know, in
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the upper right hand corner, that would be the alleged Oswald's sniper nest right
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on the sixth floor. So go two floors down to the fourth floor and
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all the way over to the left, but not all the way. It's
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the second set of windows in that is where they were. She was standing
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there with Sander Stiles, Dorothy Garner, and Elsie Dorman. And I believe
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Elsie Dorman was filming. There's a Dorman film out there if you want to
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go see it to get their perspective from where they were standing inside the school
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book Depository. As the President came around the corner there. Now, according
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to Victory Adams, within twenty seconds so relative quickly, she and her friend
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Sandra Styles ran to the back set of stairs, ran down the stairs and
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out the back of the building where the loading dock was, and they proceeded
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to try to get over to the railroad yard, the grassy area, because
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that's where everybody was going. And she says that they were turned back by
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a Dallas police officer who told them, don't bother coming over here, just
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go back in your building, go around the front, go in the building,
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and stay there, blah blah blah. Okay, Now, I don't
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know what police officer would have been there in that area right after the assassination,
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within so if they waited twenty seconds and it took them thirty seconds to
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get out, so within a minute, there's some kind of police officer back
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there that turned her away. And she said, they came around the building
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and we're standing out front for a little while talking to some co workers.
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I believe Avery Davis was mentioned and what she tells in this interview, and
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it's not in her Warrant Commission testimony, or I might be in her testederemony,
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but not in the report. But she saw a man that kind of
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caught her attention because of the way that he was acting. And she said
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that after the assassination, of course, after Oswald is captured, after Oswald
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is killed, she recognizes the man as Jack Ruby, who was standing on
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the corner in front of the school book depository asking people questions like a cop,
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she said. She said, it could have been he could have been
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acting like a reporter type of thing, or it might not even have been
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Jack Ruby at all, who knows, but she said it looked just like
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Jack Ruby. Okay, this is what she says. Yep. And the
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Dallas Morning News was only two blocks away from the tsdd SO. And then
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she proceeded to go back inside the school book Depository until everybody was cleared,
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and you know, she went back up to her office. Blah blah blah.
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Now, the interesting thing is the Warrant Commission, David Beling, specifically,
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when they came to take her testimony, they only wanted to talk to
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her. She told him that she was with somebody, Sandra Styles, and
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they didn't want to hear from Sandra Styles, you know. And she told
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him, look, if you think I'm mistaken about my timing, then go
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get a stop watch and let's do a reenactment timing timing so you can see
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exactly when it was that I went down the steps. And the problem with
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all this is because she didn't see anybody on the steps. She didn't see
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Lee Harvey Oswald going down, She didn't see Truly and Baker coming up.
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So this is a problem, okay, because miraculously, all of a sudden,
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according to the official story, we have Oswald in the second floor lunch
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room and Truly in Baker. Now, some people write this off as Oswald
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beat her down the stairs, and all Oswald, Truly and Baker were all
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in the second floor lunch room when she and Sandra came down the stairs.
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Therefore, she didn't see anybody. The question is, could Oswald take the
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final shot within twenty seconds, run all the way across the warehouse floor,
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hide his gun down in between a pile of boxes, run down past the
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fourth floor to the second floor without being seen or heard by Sandra Styles because
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she even says, if anybody was on those steps, running down the steps,
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you were gonna hear them, whether they're on the sixth floor, seventh
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floor, second floor, whatever, because it's a it's a wooden stairway.
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It's an old, wooden, clunky stairway that cleat the creeks and you know,
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clops, and you know you're gonna hear somebody running down or running up
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the stairs. Yeah, and Rob in the interview that we're gonna play some
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parts of she even ah told the difference between a footprint like a like a
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guy and a stomp like a like a heel. Like she made that differentiation.
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Uh, and you have to think, like you know, she's we're
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gonna show you a graphic. She's twenty thirty feet away from the stairs in
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her office on the fourth floor. She would probably be able to tell if
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a guy or a girl was coming down based on the sound, right,
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because you're gonna have heels, it's gonna be a clunk. That's what she
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did, a clunk and and whatever else she described it. We have the
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audio, but yeah, and if you're seeing she made that difference, that
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that that difference, you know. Yeah, because there was an interview that
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just came out recently within the past year of Victoria Adams Mark Lane on the
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Mort Saw Show in nineteen sixty six, And I'm gonna put the audio of
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it up on the front on this channel, you know, from the vault
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for everybody to listen to the entire interview in its entirety if you're so inclined
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to learn more about what she said, because there's a lot of interesting things
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that she said that, you know, we can't just do justice talking about
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it. Now. We got a couple of clips here and here about it.
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But you know, another thing that the lone noters will try to say
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was, well, she was so fast that she beat Oswald and Baker and
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Truly down the stairs and she made it out of the back of the school
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depository before Baker and Truly even got into the building, which is hard to
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believe if you watch some of the footage, like the Darnell film where I
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Know you know, Bart says that you don't actually see maryon Baker, who
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is in the film running across Elma Street. You don't actually see him go
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into depository right away. Now that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't. We just
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don't see it, okay, But according to all of the testimony over the
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years from Truly and Baker, they pretty much went in instantaneously. And then
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there's some other oddities with Love Lady, Billy Love Lady and Bill Shelley,
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which we'll get into later, but before we do, let's start with I
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guess her warrant commissioned testimony. Joe, if you want to pop that up.
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Sure, pop it up. Hopefully our audio issues are fixed. If
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they're not. If I sound low, let me know, if I sound
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high, and let me know please. Yeah. So this is on April
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seventh, nineteen sixty four. This is the first introduction. That's mister Beeland.
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And you can see here on the right side one of the corrections that
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we'll get into later that she made. She wasn't employed as an office survey
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senative, an office service representative now service survey. You could easily see how
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that could get confused, especially if, like I was explaining to Joe,
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when she's given her testimony to Beelin, there is a stenographer taking her testimony
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in shorthand, okay, and then this stuff is typed up later, okay,
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which is why they're given the option to come in, reread it,
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sign it before it goes to print or you know, or whatever. So
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you know, this is not necessarily nefarious if certain things get changed, like
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you know, Roger Craig's case of a light colored rambler or white colored rambler,
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or you know, when somebody says officious as far as effectious or whatever
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the case may be. Yeah, or you know, she that she was
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in office. What would you say, Joe in office? What survey?
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They is what they initially said, but she corrected and said service. So
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I mean you're talking about really similar words here, somebody that sucks and taking
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shorthand basically mm hmm. They're not very good at it. It's quite evident
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throughout just you know, a ton of people's testimony, and they actually went
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back and reread it and checked it and made the changes or whatever. But
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we'll get into all that later because I have a we have a good clip
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about all these changes too, by the Warrant Commission. But please please continue.
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Yeah, I have one more. Uh. This is uh, this
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is also her Warrior Commission testimony. And uh, I'm gonna just go down
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to the bottom paragraph and after the third shot following that, and initially she
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said, which was fireworks. The third shot, I went to the back
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of the building, down the backstairs and encountered Billy Shelly and Billy love Lady
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on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street. Doc.
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Right, And here's here's the first problem, because if she would have encountered
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Shelley and love Lady on the first floor, then she would have to be
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mistaken about how long it took her to get to the first floor, which
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is what the Warrant Commission was trying to do with her testimony because she is
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what they called a problem that they didn't know how to solve, so they
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ended up changing her testimony to say that she saw them on the first floor
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as she came down the stairs, when she actually saw them after she had
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already come back, after she had come back in the building, after she
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had gone out the back door, after they try to get over to the
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grass, you know, after they walked around, after they've talked to people
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out front, and then came back inside. That's when she saw them standing
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on the first floor back by the elevators, guarding them, guarding them.
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So that is a pretty uh substantial change by the by the Warrant Commission to
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do that, because then they could explain away her testimony as well. She's
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simply mistaken about how long. You know, she was in shock after the
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shooting and lost track of time and this, that and the other. You
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know, she was one problem. That's why they didn't talk to Sandra Styles,
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That's why they didn't talk to Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman they didn't want
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to have to deal with four problems. One is bad enough, so you
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don't want corroborating witnesses on this type of thing, because it did. It
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did really give them a lot of problems. And that's why she was interviewed
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by the Secret Service, the FBI, the Criminal Intelligence Division of the DPD.
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And allegedly she said that she was approached by Lavelle, of course,
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and she said, were you the guy that was handcuffed Oswald? And he
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allegedly was threatening to her in a sense. And well, I happened to
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have that interview of Vicky Adams by James Levelle that was done on February seventeenth,
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nineteen and sixty four. Okay, so this is his report. It's
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not a direct doesn't have the interview notes. This is just a report he
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wrote afterwards. I talk with Vicky Adams at eight ten pm this date,
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February seventeen sixty four. The following statement is what she said happened on November
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twenty second, nineteen sixty three. My name is Vicky Adams, three nine
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nine Cole Apartment D no phone. My job as office service representative. I
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reported to work that day at eight thirty am, and I worked in that
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capacity until noon. A friend of mine, Elsie Doorman, who lives in
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oak Cliffe and works in the office, wanted to take some moving pictures of
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the motorcade. I opened a third floor window, about the third one from
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the front of the building. She took pictures of the motorcade. When the
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President got in front of us, I heard somebody call him and he turned.
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That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a
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firecracker. Then the second shot. I saw the secret serviceman run to the
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back of the President's car, and after after the third shot, I went
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out the back door. I said, I think someone has been shot.
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The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I
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went down to the first floor. I saw mister Shelley and another employee named
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Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see
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anyone on the stairs. Now that's interesting because not only is the story in
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the in the warrant commissioned testimony, but now all of a sudden, it
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matches Lavelle's report from February seventeenth, right some three months earlier. But now
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if she if she did see Shelley and love Lady in the first floor as
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soon as soon as she came down the stairs. Then that means that and
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love Lady were lying about what they did immediately after the assassination, because they
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claimed that they stayed out front, that they walked down towards the grassy knoll,
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and that at some point they two were turned away and told to go
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back, which they did, which would have taken a considerable couple of minutes
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to happen. Okay, for sure, So that's what they said they did,
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right, And supposedly there's a gift, uh it's part of that might
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be part of the Darnell film. I'm not sure, but apparently it shows
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what appears to be Shelley and Lovelady walking away from the entrance of the school
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depository down Elm Street. It's not definitive by any means. You cannot make
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a definitive ident identification of either person. It's just somebody in a suit and
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somebody in a shirt that looks like Love Ladies flannel shirt. Yeah, and
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they're they're kind of walking heading away from the entrance. But again it's not
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definitive. But if that's not them, okay in in the movie, and
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they possibly knew that something was going on and went back in the building on
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the first floor by the back by the elevator. So soon after the assassination
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or after the shots were fired, that Vicky Adams did in fact meet them
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on the first floor as she came down the steps. Then that opens up
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a whole as to how the assassins got in and out of the building.
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Uh. With that being seen, but we'll cross that bridge here a little
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bit. Says. I ran out the back door of the depository and around
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to the front. I started down toward the railroad tracks when an officer stopped
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me, and I turned and turned me back. I asked the officer if
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the president had been shot, and he said he did not know. As
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I turned, I saw another employee, Joe Molina, standing by the front
27:26
of the building facing Elm Street. I stopped and talked with Avery Davis,
27:30
another employee. I saw two men in the street clothes. One was gesturing
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with his hands and asking questions. I asked mister Davis who he was.
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I later saw Jack Raby on TV and thought it was the same man.
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No one had surrounded the building by this time, and I went back into
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the building and to the passenger, but the power was off. I went
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to the back of the freight elevator. There was two plain clothed men on
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it. However, the power on it also was turned off. I walked
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up the stairs to the fourth floor to my office and we were later told
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that we could leave. This concludes miss Adam's statement to me j R.
28:22
Lavelle, So what do you think about that there, Joseph. I mean,
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she talks about in the interview, We're going to play a couple of
28:33
clips of that Lavelle visited her and she alleged that he threatened her or made
28:41
her feel uncomfortable, and that corroborates that. I definitely think Lavelle did pay
28:51
her a visit a few weeks after and she was a problem. I mean,
28:56
it didn't fit the narrative. And when you talk about Sanders styles.
29:04
She later and we'll read a little statement from her that she made in two
29:11
thousand and eight to a researcher, but she kind of pushes back on some
29:19
of what Vicky Adams says and says she might have exaggerated some of it.
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And so oh was she like, I mean, listen, it's forty something
29:33
years later. I'm just we're going to read it and put it on context
29:37
and let the listeners decide for themselves, because it is a really interesting statement
29:42
that she said. And well, before we do a fun caveat to the
29:47
James Leavelle interview is the claim of why he was interviewing her, because at
29:53
this time she'd already been talked to by the Dallas Police, the Secret Service,
29:59
the FBI. James Leavelle claimed that he was there because a fire had
30:03
broke out at the DPD and destroyed a bunch of witness statements. Yeah,
30:14
now that's a new one to me, because I'm pretty sure we have a
30:21
good bit of these original statements. I've never seen any burned or partially burned
30:27
or heard that reference as an excuse to go back three months after the assassination
30:34
to reinterview somebody as important to witness as Victoria Adams was so very very owde
30:45
behavior from James Leville. Yes, yes, let's play a clip or two
30:57
from the nine sixty six interview of Victoria Adams with Mark Lane And uh was
31:07
it Marshall the comedian? Yeah, Mark Lane really takes control of this interview.
31:21
Well, I think Vicky Adams takes control of this interview, is you
31:25
are about to hear. She is a very intelligent, strong woman, articulate,
31:32
very articulate, very smart, and very sure about what she saw for
31:37
sure, rolled Joe right, Why don't you which one do you want to
31:48
do? The Ruby one? Sure, that's what happened here. There are
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two witnesses according to the Warren Report, who said that during the first five
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minutes of the assassination they were watching the rear of the building and they saw
32:07
no one enter or lead. These two witnesses I saw who were standing here.
32:13
They were talking together and were not even looking at the building. One
32:16
was a Dallas policeman and the other one was a man in a suit.
32:20
And who they were I don't know, but any rate, I proceeded back
32:23
this way and around the building and approximately to this location here where I was
32:30
encountered by a policeman. Why did you build this way? Because that's where
32:34
the majority of the people were to miss church. They were running over that
32:37
way and I wanted to find out where the action was. So this policeman
32:44
here told me to get back to the building, get back to the front
32:46
of the building, which is what I did. So I continued running down
32:51
this way and stopped to possibly here, which is almost the front of the
32:54
Texas School of Depository building. While I was there, I encountered one of
33:00
my fellow employees named missus Avery Davis, who is no longer with the same
33:04
company, and I just said, well, you know, what in the
33:08
world's going on here? I was confused myself. I didn't know for sure
33:10
if the president had been shot or or what was going on. So I
33:15
said, well, I've listened to the to the radio on a police motorcycle
33:21
which was approximately in this position here, a three wheeler, So I listened
33:24
to that, and there were reports that said something about the President has been
33:29
shot, Governor Conley has been shot, Vice President Johnson has been shot.
33:31
Everybody in the world was shot on that corner, and I wanted to find
33:35
out what was going on. And then they said that there were the shots
33:38
were either from the second or the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
33:43
Well that made me a little nervous because I had been on the fourth
33:46
floor at an open window. So I was the meeting just at that point
33:52
about whether or not to go back into the building, and right here on
33:57
this corner, and there was a man standing there who was dressed in a
34:00
suit and at the time he had on a hat. And I spoke with
34:05
Missus Davis, and I said, who is that man? Because he was
34:09
he was asking questions as if he were a police officer, you know,
34:14
he acted like he knew what was going on, and people then weren't acting
34:16
like anybody knew what was going on. And so I said, I wonder
34:20
what he's doing here. Maybe he's a reporter. I said, maybe he's
34:22
with a secret service. I wonder what he's doing. But it was it
34:25
was very relevant, and this is in my testimony, but it's never mentioned
34:30
in the war On report. Now the question is who was that man?
34:34
And uh later on, because he made such a strong impression on my mind,
34:39
his face stuck with me in my memory. And then several days later
34:45
I saw on television a man that looked very similar to him, and that
34:52
man was Ruby, Ruby, Ruby, Ruby, Do you know any other
35:05
people that alleged Ruby was in Dealey Plaza. I've seen a photograph alleging that
35:15
it's a picture of Jack Ruby and Daly Plaza. M and also there was
35:22
that document that came out back in the nineties about him actually being in Deahly
35:30
Plaza watching the motor key with somebody and said, you know, it's like
35:34
something he wanted to see the fireworks for himself, the famous fireworks document.
35:42
So it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could have been in
35:44
Deally Plaza the last time he was cited. Was it like what eleven thirty
35:47
at the Dallas Morning News. You know, he claimed he stayed there for
35:55
a while and that that's where he was during the assassination. But I don't
35:59
think anybody he ever corroborated that to my knowledge, unless it was Tony Zappi,
36:04
who was his buddy that he went to Cuba with, but it would
36:08
probably lie for him. But yeah, other than that, I I don't
36:15
know. So, you know, it's entirely possible. I mean, he
36:19
was everywhere that weekend that we know of. I mean, my god,
36:24
I mean he's If he's in dealing with the Plaza, that wouldn't surprise me.
36:29
If he was a Parkland, that wouldn't surprise me. He was even
36:32
alleged to be seen in the in the Texas Theater by George Aaplin, So
36:39
uh, you know, who the hell knows, But it's crazy to think
36:44
about. Yeah, Sally, and Sally just brought up about there was a
36:52
document a couple of women say they saw Ruby hand Oswald a gun in the
36:54
plaza. And there's also the you know, Julia Mercer allegation that she saw
37:02
Ruby, you know, take a gun case out of a truck and go
37:07
up the grassy knoll before the assassination took place. But who knows, you
37:13
know, the morning of right with the air conditioning truck or something. Yeah,
37:23
so very interesting stuff. Now. I also have here an FBI interview
37:30
from March of twenty out of nineteen sixty four, So this is after she
37:36
talked to Lavelle, but before her one commission testimony. So again this is
37:40
a reinterview for the umpteenth time. This is before she even gets to the
37:47
one commission. Now this is the FBI. Victoria Elizabeth Adams freely make the
37:58
following voluntary statement to Eugene Petrachis and A. Raymond Switzer, who have identified
38:04
themselves to me as special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I am
38:09
a Caucasian female, white girl born February eighth, nineteen forty one. It's
38:17
one day for my birthday, Joe at San Francisco, California, and I
38:22
presently resided four nine oh six Whenona, Dallas, Texas. I'm employed as
38:30
an office service representative by Scott Foresman and Cost Company, Room four oh one
38:36
of the Texas school Book Depository building at four eleven Elm Street, Dallas,
38:39
Texas, and was so employed on November twenty second, nineteen sixty three,
38:45
the day President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. She is very thorough,
38:49
let me tell you she is. On November twenty second, nineteen sixty three,
38:54
at about twelve twenty pm, I was in my office and I went
39:00
to the sixth window from the left to watch the presidential motorcade. Also viewing
39:07
the parade with me were Elsie Dorman, Sandra Styles, and Dorothy Garner,
39:12
all employees of the Scott Foresman and Company. I recalled that at about twelve
39:16
thirty pm, just after the car carrying President Kennedy had passed on the street
39:22
below, I heard three loud reports, which I first thought were firecrackers,
39:29
But when I saw all the confusion on the street below, I knew they
39:32
must have been shots. After the third shot, I observed the car carrying
39:37
President Kennedy speedway, excuse me, Sanders Styles and I then ran out of
39:45
the building via the stairs and went in the direction of the railroad, where
39:50
we had observed other people running. We had not gone far when a police
39:54
officer stopped us and instructed us to return to the building, which we did.
40:00
I never knew Lee Harvey Oswald, but I believe I did see him
40:04
on one occasion in the depository building about two weeks before the assassination. I
40:10
did not see him on this day President Kennedy was assassinated, nor did I
40:14
observe any strangers in the school Book Depository building on the morning of November twenty
40:19
second. I believe I left the Texas school Book Depository Building that day between
40:24
two pm and two thirty pm on November twenty second, and I went home.
40:31
So that is her FBI statement in March. No mention of love Lady
40:38
and Shelley, no mention of really a lot. But one other interesting person
40:49
that I want to touch on real quick is Dorothy Garner. Now she wasn't
40:53
interviewed by the Warrent Commission either, and She did not run down the stairs
41:00
with Vicky and Sandra, but she did follow them out to the landing,
41:06
the fourth floor landing. I guess she thought better or for whatever reason,
41:13
she didn't proceed down. And this is what she says. She was the
41:17
manager of She was the most senior of the girls on the stairs. She
41:24
confirms that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles left almost right away. She says,
41:30
I remember them being there, and the next thing I knew they were gone.
41:35
They had left very quickly, within a matter of seconds. There was
41:38
this warehouse or storage area behind our offices, out by the freight elevators and
41:43
the rear stairway, and I went out there. Garner went to this area
41:46
immediately after Adams and Styles had left, and although she did not see them
41:51
enter the stairwell, she could hear them running down the stairs as the stairs
41:57
were very noisy. Stay at that spot alone out on the fourth floor landing.
42:04
People and other office workers joined her to have a look outside the west
42:09
facing windows to see what was happening in the rail yard area and more importantly,
42:15
the area around the grassy knoll and the picket fence, where many bystanders
42:20
had converged at the gathering of these office workers, is confirmed by Bonnie Ray
42:24
Williams testimony as he arrived on the fourth floor from the fifth floor, where
42:30
we saw all these women looking out the window. This tiny element by itself
42:37
confirms Adams and styles immediate descent from those stairs, in contradiction to the Warren
42:43
commissioned version of her story. Garner herself was in the perfect position who came
42:49
up and who went down those stairs? And when asked whether she saw Lee
42:52
Oswald coming down those stairs, she laughed at the question. No, I
42:59
don't remember that. I don't remember seeing him at all that day except on
43:02
TV. Now this is important for many reasons, yes, sir, because
43:15
not only did Victoria Adams and Stand their styles not see anybody on the stairs
43:21
coming up or going down. Dorothy Garner didn't see anybody on the stairs coming
43:27
up or going down until Bonnie Ray Williams came down from the fifth floor.
43:34
And according to what they said, it was a while before they left.
43:38
It was a while before they left the fifth floor, like they didn't come
43:43
down immediately after the shots. So not only was Garner on the fourth floor
43:50
landing, but many other office workers too, and this was confirmed by Bonnie
43:55
Ray Williams when he got there. Only Yeah, did Garner not see Oswalds.
44:02
She didn't see truly your baker either. And they supposedly ran up to
44:07
the fifth floor, got on the elevator, went up to the seventh floor,
44:09
and then came back down to the sixth floor and the fifth floor.
44:14
You know, So, what in the sam Hill is going on around here?
44:22
What? It's all going to hell down Texas. But this is a
44:29
diagram of the fourth floor, and this is the private offices here. And
44:37
you can see a kind of scale. I don't know if you can,
44:40
but you know, this is like ten feet twenty thirty forty fifty. And
44:45
this is where I think the women on the stairs were looking out around this
44:53
area, which was two floors up and yeah, two floors up allegedly,
45:00
and two to the right, and and you see in the back near the
45:07
top of the screen the elevators which they went to. Initially realized that what
45:15
she said, that the big area back there in front of the elevators is
45:17
warehouse space. Yeah, open storage space. Yeah, So she says she
45:22
ran out the back door of the office, the offices of the fourth floor
45:27
and under that warehouse space and then back to the corner where the backstairs are
45:31
as. The elevator wasn't working right, so she stopped at the elevator and
45:36
then went to the corner to the l shaped stairs. And yeah, it's
45:44
it's really hard to miss Oswald and then to miss Trullian Baker. You have
45:51
to kind of question the timeline almost And I don't know, it's you know,
46:06
one of the things I was reading, and you know, our good
46:08
friend Bart Camp wrote the book prayer Man, And if Oswald was perman and
46:16
it wasn't on the fourth floor, and there's a lot of evidence that he
46:21
wasn't the fourth floor fifteen minutes before the assassination. Wasn't you know, eating
46:24
lunch in the Domino room and like he usually did that. Of course,
46:32
the Vicky Adams and Sandra Styles would not have seen Oswald because he was on
46:40
the first floor, maybe going up to the second after after the shots,
46:46
And that would kind of make sense in terms of the second floor encounter if
46:51
you believe that. And it's just it's just really interesting to ponder, and
46:58
who knows. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's conspiracy fodder to say
47:04
that. Okay, you know, she didn't see anybody coming up or down
47:07
the steps. That means that nobody was on the sixth floor or Oswa wasn't
47:09
on the sixth floor. That proves it, you know, on a shadow
47:13
of doubt. But Oswald's coming from two floors up. He has to go
47:19
across the entire length of the building before he hides the rifle. Okay,
47:27
And we don't know what is original or whoever was up there, what their
47:30
original plan was as far as hiding the rifle, how they were going to
47:34
get off the sixth floor. Did they plan on using the fire escape?
47:38
Did they plan on using the elevators, or did they plan on using the
47:42
stairs? You know, uh, the stairs would be like the worst possible
47:49
choice because the possibility of being seen coming down from that high up in the
47:54
building, you know, the chances of being caught dramatically up. But if
48:02
the elevators weren't working and maybe the window was jammed by the fire escape,
48:07
he didn't have a choice. And it's quite possible to me that Victoria Adams
48:15
and Sanders Styles would have made it down the steps ahead of whoever was on
48:22
the sixth floor, because they if they left the window immediately. They were
48:27
already two store two floors down and they had to run a much shorter distance
48:31
to get to the back staircase. And if you look at the sixth floor,
48:43
I mean, it was a total cluster f Okay, I mean,
48:46
I don't know how whoever got whoever was up there, got all the way
48:52
to the other end in this jumble and maze of boxes. You know,
48:57
you can see this. You can see the sign right there, Okay,
49:00
that's pointing to the stairway to the right, and you can see the western
49:07
Is it the western Joe? These are the south facing windows to the grassy
49:10
knoll is right on that side of the building. It might be the west.
49:19
I'm not Yeah, I'm not sure, but yeah, I mean,
49:25
it was just a mess up there. And then this is This is a
49:30
view of the sixth floor, and the alleged sniper's nest window is straight ahead.
49:40
Okay. Then you can see that this section of floor has been cleared.
49:50
You can see boxes to the left, you know, five or six
49:53
high, piled up along the wall, covering high enough to cover the windows.
50:00
And you can see boxes on the right stacked up behind this behind the
50:07
what are they called the structural integrity poles there. I don't know what they're
50:15
officially called, but the poles that hold up the you know, the headers
50:21
or whatever they're called. Because that morning on the sixth floor, they were
50:27
replacing sections of the floor. Yeah, they had already done the fifth floor
50:35
and they had started on the sixth floor. So it's not out of the
50:38
realm of possibility. And I've always said this that the so called sniper's nest
50:45
was not built by somebody that was up there trying to hide. It just
50:51
happened to be formed from the way these boxes were moved out of the way
50:58
so that they could replace the floor. Now it's interesting that you don't see,
51:07
uh, you know, stacks of wood or plywood and saws and pencils
51:12
and tape measures and whatever the hell else you need to do, pride bars
51:16
and all that stuff when you're working on a floor to replace it. You
51:22
know, you got to pry the old one up. You got to put
51:23
the new one down, you know, but you have to make cuts,
51:27
probably here, probably there. You're going to measure things. Not to mention
51:30
that stuff is I don't know, Yeah, not to mention the the unpredictable
51:37
aspect of who is going to be on that floor at the time, right,
51:42
Like a lot of people went down, like the you know, a
51:47
lot of the African Americans without a fifth floor, you have a lot of
51:52
people on the steps who knew who would be on the sixth floor at that
51:58
time. I mean bull West the frazier said he what launched in the basement?
52:01
So yeah, like why couldn't he eat it on the sixth floor if
52:06
you wanted a better view? Like you would never know that if you were
52:09
Donnie Ray Williams was up on the sixth floor eating his chicken buton sandwich,
52:15
smoking a cigarette. You know, probably there's an assassin sweating bullets hiding over
52:20
in the corner like ten ft away from him that he doesn't hear. I
52:25
mean, what if what if Bonnie Ray Williams never would have got up and
52:30
went down to the fifth floor, you know, or what if he did
52:36
encounter somebody up there and they were like, uh, hey man, maybe
52:40
in your best interest to get the hell off this floor. If you know
52:44
what I'm saying, and you didn't see nothing, got it, Yes,
52:49
sir, I ain't see nothing. But who knows what the who knows what
52:53
the official story is there, but I can tell you, folks for sure,
52:58
this screen shot from the movie JFK by Oliverstone never happened in real life.
53:06
No, it did not. And this is his interpretation of Oswald coming
53:10
down the stairs and passing Victoria Adams and then Dorothy or Sander Styles on the
53:15
stairway. Yeah. So what I read, Rob was that they knew that
53:22
right, but they were making it a point two kind of ridiculous. Yeah.
53:30
Yeah, and like have to be like almost a pun. I don't
53:32
know what the right word is, but like like a shot at that whole
53:37
situation in terms of you know, Oswald running down and the timing and how
53:44
he didn't run into anyone, how he was on the second floor encounter our
53:47
second floor a lunch room. And I think that's a good time because we
53:52
have a lot of comments up here. We didn't catch up. I'm just
53:54
gonna pop this up here real quick. Yes. Yeah, So this was
53:59
the thing before Barry Ernest actually ever wrote this book, as you know,
54:04
you can tell from the Mark Lane interview from nineteen sixty six and Mortsong and
54:08
something that was definitely up, you know, with the with the police and
54:13
the FBI and the Warren Commission changing things. But Barry Ernests book The Girl
54:17
up Stairs definitely did a very good job of encapsulating everything. I mean,
54:22
he tracked her down and talked to her again when she clarified a lot of
54:25
things. He interviewed. I think he interviewed Sanders Styles and Dorothy Garner,
54:30
and all of them pretty much said the same thing. But I highly recommend
54:36
this as one of my favorite books on the assassination because it not only goes
54:39
into stuff like this, but it also tells a lot about Barry Ernest as
54:45
a JFK researcher in the nineteen sixties of him, you know, kind of
54:50
sneaking into the school depository talking to Roy truly who you know, he asked
54:54
for a tour and he says no, but then he goes and sneaks off
54:59
anyway, and uh kind of you know, runs around the school depository kind
55:02
of seeing what he wants to see. Anyway, It tells about his interaction
55:07
with local Dallas attorney Carol Jarnigan. It even goes into Joe when Barry or
55:16
Ernest saw Ah when we don't go back to the Martins and and Gary Shoner.
55:24
He saw Gary Schooner in Philadelphia after he had gotten hit the piss beaten
55:30
out of him in the alley. Uh So there's all kinds of cool stuff
55:37
in this book. It's not just all about this. But I highly recommend
55:40
his book to anybody out there. Even though Barry didn't want to come on
55:44
my show many years ago and talk about his book, I still highly recommend
55:49
it. Yeah. But yeah, Joe, let's get into uh what else
55:53
you got there? Okay, all right, let me play one more clip
56:05
for you if you want play it. And then I got one for you.
56:09
Oh ma, trade clips, trade clips. I like it. So
56:19
what's this clip about to? I want you to feel bad? Let me
56:22
tell you what the Commission did to almost everybody who disagreed with the Commission's preconceived
56:25
conclusion. You're clip. Oh yeah, these are quotes now about having commission
56:34
had the testimony. The commission quote could not accept important elements of Deputy Sheriff
56:39
Craig's testimony. Close quote Missus Randall was quote mistaken. Close quote govinor Connolly
56:46
quote probably was mistaken. Close shot to mistaken. It was probably shot.
56:52
Also, yes, Frazier quote could easily have been mistaken. Close quote Daniel's
57:00
testimony quote Merrit's little credence. Roland was quote prone to exaggerate, and there
57:06
were quote serious doubts about his credibility. Whaley's memory was quote inaccurate, and
57:12
he was quote somewhat imprecise. Close quote end quote was an error. Canter
57:19
quote was preoccupied. Close quote end quote probably did not see Ruby at the
57:23
Parkland hospital. Close quote. Missus Tice was an error. Wage that's the
57:29
district attorney. Quote lacked of thoroughgraphs with the evidence and made a number of
57:34
errors. Weitzman was quote incorrect. Missus Helmick's quote reliability was undermined. Ruby
57:40
and Shankton were misquoted. The doctor's the Parkland Hospital misquoted, and they were
57:45
also an error. Missus Connolly's testimony quote did not preclude a possibility close quote
57:52
that it actually did preclude. Missus Kennedy's testimony about the wounds in the president
57:58
that was deleted. Rich was not even mentioned in the report, and Missus
58:01
Clement's existence was tacitly denied. Well, this is how the commission dealt with
58:07
the testimony, which was inconvenient, and your testimony was very intent, because
58:10
if your estimate of what took place is accurate, then Oswald could not have
58:15
gotten from the sixth floor to the second floor, and he was found on
58:17
the second floor and he couldn't get there from the sixth floor. And there's
58:21
only one set of stairs, right and the elevators. We're not working well,
58:24
we're not working at time according to the role of testimony the officer and
58:29
truly so if Oswalt could not didn't get down those stairs when you were there,
58:34
and if your testimony is accurate about when you were there, yeah,
58:37
because I wants you must be wrong, because I've been and I want to
58:43
talk about Jack Ruby. You can't sorry wrong, you're mutia. What did
59:04
you say? I said? Did you hear that? Okay? Sorry?
59:09
Yeah, you said you want to get in some comments? Go ahead,
59:16
Yeah, let me scroll up. It was like, let's see Alpha sixty
59:25
six said the Dallas Morning News building was from sixty three is five six blocks
59:32
south of the TSBD building. I was just going off of what. Let
59:43
me posted an interview on the vault. You'll see that. They said.
59:46
Mark Lane and Victoria Adams said that it was only two blocks away and the
59:53
last sighting of Ruby was fifteen minutes before the assassination, fifteen minutes after the
59:59
assassination, and there was a gap which he could have gone to the TSBT.
1:00:04
How do I believe that, I don't know, but that's what she
1:00:08
claimed. So, like I said, I don't know of anybody who put
1:00:15
him at the Dallas Morning News building at the actual time of the assassination.
1:00:21
And if he did, it was Tony Zappi, who was his buddy,
1:00:24
his Italian buddy, if you know what I'm saying, who went with him
1:00:28
to Cuba. So yeah, I don't know he was an associate in this
1:00:35
thing of ours. Yeah, but yeah, it's it's very I agree that
1:00:43
he wasn't accounted for during the assassination, but I don't know who else of
1:00:47
other than you know, Vicky said that Vicky Adams said that she saw him.
1:00:58
It's definitely not one of those like corroborated sightings. There's definitely not a
1:01:02
picture of it. I remember heard in her interview she said, well,
1:01:07
he was wearing a hat, and this picture of this guy's not wearing a
1:01:08
hat, but I guess you could take off a hat. He's like yeah,
1:01:13
and like Mark Lane, like jokes like, yeah, I believe hats
1:01:15
are removable, like it's silly. But Paula James's LHA wouldn't be in the
1:01:23
building if at all. If Roger Craig is right, well, that's not
1:01:29
necessarily true. He just saw somebody running down the side of the building shortly
1:01:36
at you know, ten minutes after the assassination. If it was Oswald that
1:01:40
he saw, Oswald could have definitely been in the building and just got out
1:01:45
of the building and then came down the hill and whistled and got picked up.
1:01:51
So it doesn't necessarily preclude h Roger Craig. And yes, but the
1:01:58
little white prints off the ravel too, if they were were any prints on
1:02:00
the rifle at all, because we know the paraffine test did not conclude or
1:02:07
didn't find any paraffine on his face, which it likely would have been had
1:02:10
he fired a rifle recently. So if the rifle was planted by someone,
1:02:16
surely they would have been smart enough to wipe down the rifle first. And
1:02:21
yes, Bungle, the word I was looking for is columns. I'm idiot,
1:02:27
thank you too. That's where we have our loyal followers and tablets out
1:02:36
sometimes. Yes, yes, let's see. Someone on Facebook suggested the paraglide.
1:02:46
He paraglided from the roof the other day. Oh my god. Next
1:02:52
week he parachuted it all out a sixth floor window with an umbrella. Mary
1:03:00
Puppins and Ray Hargraves m M, you can't make this stuff up. No,
1:03:09
it's uh. And somebody said Mark Lane is sus Yeah, and Paula
1:03:15
wants to know why he's sus. He saved us a lot on video.
1:03:19
Yeah, I said, you know, Mark, Mark Lane did some good
1:03:30
work. Allegedly, some might say that he was controlled opposition from the very
1:03:35
start, of course I do. That's debatable. I mean, the FBI
1:03:43
definitely had some dirt on him. Apparently Mark Lane was a bit of a
1:03:51
freakazoid in his personal life, if you get what I'm saying. Uh.
1:03:58
He he liked pliers on his nutsack, among other things. So it's not
1:04:09
out of the realm with possibility that Hoover or the CIA could have blackmailed this
1:04:15
guy into being a disinformation agent if you will. There's lots of allegations of
1:04:21
Mark Lane paying for testimony, h lying to some people, and the whole
1:04:34
thing about Jim Jones and uh, what what's that called Joe that happened down
1:04:45
there in Guyana? Jim Jones drink the kool Aid? Like. Mark Lane
1:04:53
was one of, like one of the only people that made it out of
1:04:56
there alive with a briefcase full of money. I'm not familiar with this,
1:05:01
you know. Was it the People's Temple? I don't know. You never
1:05:12
heard of this? No, please explain for her. It was up back
1:05:16
in the seventies. This guy, Jim Jones had moved a cult down to
1:05:23
like Guyana and bought a bunch of land and had all these people living there,
1:05:26
and then he gave him all kool aid. It was lace with like
1:05:29
cyanide and killed like hundreds of people. And Mark Lane was there, and
1:05:36
he was one of the few people that escaped with a briefcase full of money.
1:05:44
I honestly have somebody helping the comments. What are we talking about here?
1:05:47
They have here? It was called something but what Ev says? Yes,
1:05:54
Lane was deeply involved in the People's Temple. Dave says Lane was blackmailaliteer
1:05:59
at all. Yeah. Me Brussel was big about Mark Lane being controlled oppositions.
1:06:04
Yeah, jonestown, Thank you. Scott jonestown. That's what you've heard
1:06:11
of that before. Yes, yes, yes, yes, Jones that is
1:06:19
crazy and uh, I want to bring him back too quick. Hits for
1:06:25
a second because I was pulled. I was the first person to have Paul
1:06:32
better late than never. Yes, I was the first person. And you've
1:06:39
made a really funny comment because Doug was like Joe Brelly, controlled opposition in
1:06:45
regardless Offenser Wall. Then you go, of course he does. I thought
1:06:53
that was great umbrella man. We're not trashing the guy. I do agree
1:06:59
rushed judgment. The book and the movie are invaluable research tools. And then
1:07:05
Mark Lane brought up many good points. But things might have been different if
1:07:11
Mark Lane was actually let do what he tried to do, which was b
1:07:19
Lee Harvey, Oswall's lawyer in absentia during the Warren Commission. I believe that
1:07:30
plan got scuttled for some reason, and we get conspiracy Mark Lane. You
1:07:40
know, even even the woman that we did the show about a couple of
1:07:44
weeks ago, Joe refreshed my memory TIPID murder witness. Yes, Helen Markham.
1:07:55
You know people like that, people like Lee Bowers was not a big
1:08:01
fan of Mark Lane either, said he kind of bullied him into saying certain
1:08:09
things. But you know, I'm not trashing Mark Lane. I think anybody
1:08:15
that has done anything to go against the official narrative should be praised for what
1:08:20
they did. But again, you do understand that some people are let to
1:08:29
do this kind of stuff to mislead from the truth. I mean, it's
1:08:35
just a matter of history. It happens all the time co intel pro you
1:08:41
know, organizations are infiltrated all the time and tried to be turned one way
1:08:45
or another, you know, whether it be you know, a terrorst cell
1:08:51
or a radical organization, you know, you name it. It's it's been
1:08:59
going on, you know, forever, but it definitely got ramped up in
1:09:04
the sixties and seventies for sure. Yeah, and he had some screwy with
1:09:10
Mark Lane, I mean with Marklin, with Lauren Hall right and that whole
1:09:15
he was kind of protecting him in a sense. I don't know you can
1:09:21
clear clear that up. But one thing I was thinking about, especially after
1:09:27
listening to Quickheads, was like, Okay, like you say, someone comes
1:09:30
down on the side of conspiracy, but you promote the wrong conspiracy, say
1:09:39
like the mafia, Right, That's that's a very easy one, right,
1:09:44
Uh, does that make you control that position if you're say, like deflecting
1:09:49
from the actual possible conspirators, and only if you know you're being deceptive,
1:09:58
Like if you know that the mafia truly was involved and you're trying to say
1:10:02
that it was you know, the oil, big oil money. You know
1:10:08
that's what you're pushing, and you want to try to push it, push
1:10:13
you know, eyes away from the mafia, you know, or if you
1:10:15
know it was the oil guys and you want to push people towards the mafia
1:10:19
angle, you know, you can only do that damage if you if you
1:10:28
are appreciant of the fact that you know the truth, you know, somebody
1:10:33
telling you or blackmailing you, say, hey, you know we're gonna we're
1:10:38
gonna out you as being this. If you don't say this, or you
1:10:41
don't say that, or you don't do this or you don't do that,
1:10:45
that's a whole different ballgame, you know, when you when you get into
1:10:47
the blackmail game, which is also you know what with the way the intelligence
1:10:54
community was back then and the FBI, it wasn't it wasn't above them to
1:10:58
do things like that. No, not at all, not at all.
1:11:05
Not at all, but uh yeah, I mean we're gonna g a ton
1:11:13
of great comments here. I will say. Yes, I'm brain dead tonight
1:11:17
for some reason. Not enough sleep this week. It's been a long week.
1:11:21
But thank you for the people helping me put words in my mouth.
1:11:26
Yes. Yeah, So to close it all up, Joe mh I wanted
1:11:41
to read a little statement from the man himself, very earnest from a post
1:11:49
on his blog and where he can help us tie it up here. So
1:11:59
David Bilan had schedule on April seventh as one of a two man team looking
1:12:02
into the true identity of JFK's assassin. A conclusion would say the Warren Commission
1:12:08
already had determined by that date. Balley was in Dallas to question witnesses he
1:12:13
had recommended back in February, but on this particular Tuesday he had only three
1:12:17
appointments. At nine fifteen that morning, he talked with Dallas police officer W.
1:12:23
E. Barnes, apparently so inconsequential he would not even be mentioned in
1:12:29
the Warren report. Then at four pm came Dealey Plasid witness Barber Roland Arnold's
1:12:36
wife, whose words, despite promises to the contrary made by Belan would be
1:12:42
used to discredit the testimony of her own husband, Arnold, who a month
1:12:45
earlier had revealed that he saw two men on the sixth floor. And again
1:12:53
that ties back because Craig is the one that had found the rolands, and
1:12:56
that's what they told Craig and Sammu in these two witnesses at two point fifteen
1:13:01
was Victoria Adams. A week earlier, on April Fool's Day, coincidentally,
1:13:06
belated questioned Deputy Shriff Roger Craig. Craig would later say that his testimony had
1:13:13
been altered and keywords have been taken out to make it read different than it
1:13:16
should. Again, is this a horrible stenographer using shorthand? Or is this
1:13:26
more sinister? Victoria Adams would echo much the same regarding her brush with that
1:13:31
attorney. I didn't like him, she told me. I thought he was
1:13:35
a pompous jerk, full of himself and his own power, impressed with himself
1:13:41
and manipulated think. He expanded when I gave my deposition to the Warrant Commission
1:13:46
attorney he was another of those patronizing types. When I went into the office
1:13:53
he was using He did not stand up as a gentleman would, as was
1:13:58
the custom in the South when a woman entered the room. He stayed seated.
1:14:02
Then he told me he was going to ask me some questions and he
1:14:05
wanted me to answer them without elaborating. So he went through all of the
1:14:12
questions that he had and I answered. He told me that all my answers
1:14:15
and his questions were off the record quote, and that he would invite a
1:14:20
court reporter in to take my actual deposition, and I was to answer exactly
1:14:27
what I said to him with no variations during the informal part. He leaned
1:14:32
back in his chair, crossed his arms and looked at me straight in my
1:14:36
eyes, and said, now, miss Adams, don't you think you could
1:14:42
be wrong? Memory is a funny thing and trick some people. I looked
1:14:46
him straight in the eye and said, I could be, but I'm not.
1:14:50
I know what I saw, what I did, and what I heard.
1:14:55
He told me at the end of the questioning he would ask me if
1:14:58
I had anything to add that I hadn't mentioned up to now. I was
1:15:00
supposed to say no, as I had my initial session, but I didn't.
1:15:05
As I started speaking, he'd looked startled, especially when I talked about
1:15:11
seeing Jack Ruby on the corner across the street from the Depository building. That
1:15:17
subject had not come up in the original question and answer session. He thanked
1:15:21
me for my time and I left, But the sting of that encounter would
1:15:28
persist for many years. You can imagine I felt stupid and like a fool
1:15:31
when I read the book the Warren Report. When it came out, I
1:15:36
felt treated like a moronic child. The echoes of that attorney's words haunted me.
1:15:42
Now, Miss Adams, don't you think you could be wrong? I
1:15:45
kept asking why the Warren Commission wasn't calling for Sandra Styles. In fact,
1:15:50
during the initial briefing before my testimony was taken by the attorney, I asked
1:15:57
him why they didn't call Sandra Styles. That appeal seemed logical, especially since
1:16:02
Beilan months earlier had cited the importance to determining precisely when Vicky had run down
1:16:09
the stairs. Coworker Sandra Styles, who had accompanied Vicky, sounded like the
1:16:14
perfect candidate to help resolve this issue. Yet Belin's response to Vicky's request was
1:16:19
inconsistent with his previous comment. He said they didn't need her. Vicky noted
1:16:25
they had me yep, yeah, now pretending to Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
1:16:39
In her testimony, Vicky is quoted as saying she saw those two men
1:16:43
on the first floor when she arrived there within a minute after the assassination.
1:16:47
But how could that be if she came down that fast and both men testified
1:16:53
they remained outside for several minutes following the shooting. Vicky contends that she did
1:16:59
not say she saw them, and the Shelley Lovelady passage was inserted into a
1:17:03
later transcript of her testimony to make her appear wrong in her timing. Certainly,
1:17:10
the commission's unstudied conclusion that Vicky was confused and descended later than she had
1:17:15
thought avoided having to explain why she didn't see or hear anyone on the same
1:17:20
stairs, when, if she was indeed accurate in her timing, Oswald should
1:17:27
have been there or been heard. Yeah. So yeah, and I think
1:17:34
you didn't you say you had something ab else on Sander styles. Yes,
1:17:39
Yes, I actually perfect segue. I was just pulling it up and I
1:17:43
was going to read it. So this is from researcher Sean Murphy in two
1:17:46
thousand and eight and this is the year after Vicky Adams passed away in two
1:17:55
thousand and seven, And this is what she says. I watched the motorcade
1:18:00
from a south facing window on the fourth floor of the Texas school Book Depository.
1:18:05
With me was my Scott Foresman colleagues Victoria Adams, who sadly, in
1:18:12
quotations, passed away last year. When the shooting took place, we were
1:18:16
not even aware at first it was a shooting consistent it sounded like fireworks.
1:18:24
President Kennedy was obscured from our view at the critical moments by tree foliage.
1:18:30
And keep in mind that there are two floors down from the sixth floor.
1:18:35
All I could make out in these moments was the pink of Missus Kennedy's suit.
1:18:41
Contrary to what Vicky told the Warrant Commission, she and I did not
1:18:45
go down to the rear stairs within a minute or so of the shooting.
1:18:49
First, we lingered by the window for quite some time trying to determine what
1:18:56
was going on outside. Things were very confused. Next, we made an
1:19:00
attempt to take the front of the building elevator downstairs. For some reason.
1:19:05
However, this elevator, which unlike the rear elevator went only as high as
1:19:11
the fourth floor, did not come when we called it. It was only
1:19:15
after trying to call the elevator that we thought of going towards the rear stairs,
1:19:19
and even then we did not proceed very quickly. We were wearing high
1:19:25
heeled shoes. While we were in the office area, our view of the
1:19:29
rear stairs was blocked by partitions patrons. Anyone could have come down those stairs
1:19:38
without us knowing it. All this time, we had absolutely no idea that
1:19:42
shots might have come from the Depository building. As a result, I was
1:19:45
paying very little attention to what was going on inside the building in those first
1:19:49
minutes after the assassination. If the warm Purport estimated that Vicki and I reached
1:19:56
the first floor via this rear stairs some four or five minutes after the shooting,
1:20:02
then I'd have to say that sounds a little conservative. So she's saying
1:20:08
four or five minutes as even conservative. Wow, Okay, if anything,
1:20:14
it was probably longer. I have no clear recollection of seeing Bill Shelley or
1:20:18
Billy Lovelady in quotations, both of whom I had a passing acquaintance with,
1:20:23
so she knew them near the rear. Hey, Belly, come on here
1:20:30
with your flannel and your bald head. You look good today, Billy.
1:20:36
You two mits to Shelley to finish this. I have no clear recollection of
1:20:50
seeing Billy Shelley or Billy Lovelady near the rear of the building when we reached
1:20:56
the first floor. I have a vague recollection of seeing them at some point
1:21:00
around the front entrance, but it's perfectly possible we did see them where Vicky
1:21:05
said we near the freight elevator. I wasn't paying much attention to people in
1:21:11
the building. I thought all the action was outside interesting because Vicky Adams used
1:21:15
the same term, I want to go where the action was right, Yes,
1:21:20
very interesting. So from what I understand is that Sandra Styles was more
1:21:28
wasn't as outgoing as where does this come from, Joe? This comes from
1:21:31
researcher Sean Murphy. In two thousand and eight, we emailed with her.
1:21:36
Oh, Sean Murphy is the guy who originally brought up player Man again in
1:21:41
the early two thousand and so yeah, this is two thousand and eight,
1:21:45
so yeah, you know, he posted the email and it's been pretty much
1:21:51
regarded as I mean, It's been regarded as legit on the dead Forum,
1:21:56
So yeah, it is what it is. I mean, but people don't
1:22:00
people don't push back on it. So let's just say that it always puzzled
1:22:06
me how Vicky seemed to exaggerate the speed which which we went down the rear
1:22:13
stairway, although it was fond of her. I guess she was what you
1:22:16
might call a person of drama, you know those we know them people.
1:22:24
And I found the version of events she told people somewhat sensual sense sense okay,
1:22:34
oh boy, uh sensualistic what I can't say. Sensualization istic What that's
1:22:45
not even a word. I can't pronounce it. Sensationalistic. There you go,
1:22:50
sensationalistic, so being of sensationalizing things. I'm sorry, listen, I
1:22:58
got like four paragraphs through without sensational it's sensationalistic. Yes, thank you,
1:23:06
South for the West. I found the version of and at odds with my
1:23:13
own memory of those minutes, I simply stated what I recalled, but I
1:23:16
didn't contradict her because I felt I couldn't say when she saw what she saw
1:23:21
or didn't see, just because I didn't recall it the same way. Did
1:23:29
not mean she was in ever necessarily. I am not a noble person that
1:23:33
noble of a person that I would have contradicted her, not contradicted, have
1:23:39
contradicted her to the interviewers had it been necessary. So she's like I would
1:23:44
have. She just salty because nobody interviewed poor Sanders Styles and she got left
1:23:51
out of the eye of history. Possibly, she's definitely a possibility, but
1:23:56
it's I mean, Mark Lane could have paid Vicky Adams, but it doesn't
1:24:01
seem like she she made money from this. I mean she disappeared until Barrier
1:24:06
earned his book almost forty years right. So yeah, yeah, Linda,
1:24:13
I'll be posting that in the entire interview on this channel later on tonight for
1:24:17
everybody through here as well. Very interesting interview. Well more paragraphs are Yeah.
1:24:27
Why was Vicky the only one called to testify before the Warrant Commission?
1:24:30
I don't know. My recollection has always been that I was interrogated by a
1:24:34
representative from the Warrant Commission very briefly in our office, but then there was
1:24:39
no follow up, whereas she was questioned more than once. See, she's
1:24:43
salty, possibly, and again this is the year after she died, right,
1:24:50
so Vicky Adams, I mean like this is when files came out with
1:24:59
this, So yeah, to take that in the context as well, And
1:25:02
I wondered whether it might have been that her testimony required more investigation and mine
1:25:09
was more plausible, or I was less positive in my recollections than she.
1:25:13
That is true, she yielded to Vicky Adams's points of events and timelines because
1:25:21
she didn't remember, And maybe that's smarter of her, because she didn't want
1:25:26
to get involved. If that's true, however, that I've always date shried
1:25:30
from the limelight, especially in this particular time in history, Vicky was Yeah,
1:25:36
shi e d shide from the limelight shield. I don't know the type
1:25:43
book. Vicky was a very friendly and gregarious person, while I am more
1:25:48
reserved and less outgoing. She may have exaggerated some points while I was cautious
1:25:54
about what I said, not wanting to mislead. In some instances, her
1:25:59
version might be more accurate. So what to make of this? She goes,
1:26:03
she exaggerated on salty, Yeah, but then she says in some instances
1:26:09
her version might be more accurate. So it's like, what to make of
1:26:13
this? Yeah, I don't know, it's a fascinating subject. And if
1:26:21
the FBI and the Warrant Commission did their jobs back then and interviewed all these
1:26:26
people, we would know exactly what everybody was saying back then. It's easier
1:26:31
fifty years after the fact to talk to talk smack about the better looking,
1:26:35
the more popular girl, the girl that got all the attention, you know.
1:26:43
Yeah, but it is a big ass discrepancy when you go from twenty
1:26:47
seconds to running away from the window to get down the stairs to like ten
1:26:54
minutes. Yeah, She's like, I don't think it was four or five
1:26:57
minutes. I mean, that's a huge discrepancy. Yeah, that's a huge
1:27:00
discrepancy. And it also contradicts not just Vicky Adams, but also Elsie Dorman
1:27:10
and Dorothy Garner who said that they left immediately. Yeah, you know.
1:27:18
Yeah. And I think it's very plausible that if Oswald was not on the
1:27:24
sixth floor and he was prayer man and he did hear the shots and kind
1:27:30
of realize whatever that would link up with him. Be if the second floor
1:27:40
and lunch encounter did happen, and I'm not sure that it did, it
1:27:45
could have been on the first floor, right. It links up with him
1:27:50
and Vicky Adams not seeing him come down right because he was on the first
1:27:56
floor. It's very interesting to pup under. I know per Ran, the
1:28:02
book by bart Camp has a lot of good stuff on this as well.
1:28:08
Yeah, definitely, what's this? What's toxic unicorn? Uh sounds like a
1:28:16
strain of some very good weed. I don't know. I told you,
1:28:23
hey, man, you had any of that toxic unicorn? Bro? Uh,
1:28:29
I'm down. If Colleen is gonna send it to me. You grew
1:28:33
on on your head, start farting rainbows, bro telling you let's see,
1:28:42
Dave said select this testimony was simply a prosecutor's brief, not in trial to
1:28:49
establish facts. Facts. Uncle Dave always does the bit facts. Yeah,
1:29:01
it's it's similar to Linda and and yeah She's like, I I'm right,
1:29:08
but I yield to Vicky Adams. It's like, okay, it's it's one
1:29:14
of those JFK things. And honored to have Linda in the house. She's
1:29:17
a very accomplished and esteemed researcher who goes deep. Want some folks thank you,
1:29:27
Linda. Maybe maybe is there a town in Oregon called Toxic Unicorn?
1:29:41
Or maybe it's a club I don't know, they'll have to give some more
1:29:45
context on that one, but uh, it's it's. I think it's been
1:29:50
a very interesting uh uh analysis on this lady and uh and some with the
1:30:00
other ladies on the stairs and nice. Yeah, thank you for wishing everyone
1:30:11
happy holidays on quick. Be funny if my hand actually came into the picture
1:30:16
on your side and handed handed it to you on this side, other other
1:30:29
side, other side, on the other side, over here, Yeah you're
1:30:35
not over there, Yeah it was yeah, yeah, trust me. On
1:30:42
my side, your screen is jacked up, bro, I don't know where
1:30:45
I am on your screen. Bro. You you create all the background images.
1:30:48
So I am the artistic director of the Lone Gum and podcast. Anyway,
1:30:57
folks, that's about all we got for you today. We truly appreciate
1:31:01
you being here and hanging out. And if you like what you heard,
1:31:05
make sure that you are liking and subscribing and hitting the little bell thing to
1:31:14
get notified when we go live or when we drop a show. Otherwise,
1:31:20
Joe, you got anything else to leave the good people with today? No,
1:31:26
I just want to thank you all for joining us tonight. We were,
1:31:30
you know, trying to segue into people that had alleged testimonies changed and
1:31:35
we enjoyed the show. It's a very interesting part of the assassination that Deep
1:31:42
I've in and Folks City what's up? And Roger What's up? Thank you
1:31:53
folks for hanging out with us. It has been episode number two hundred and
1:31:56
eighty six. Other Longoming podcasts, keep the keep the conversation going. If
1:32:01
you want to hang out here all you want, Uh, well we're gonna
1:32:05
call it a night and go get some Betty bye, sleepy time, good
1:32:13
good times, and uh we'll do it again next week, right, Joe,
1:32:17
I guess yes, sir, always yeah, we'll do it again next
1:32:21
week. We love you, guys, Thank you again for hanging out.
1:32:25
Thank you to again to all who hit us up with the supers. Much
1:32:29
appreciated, so for Joe the air guitar Beast from the Northeast. So next
1:32:38
time, folks, these are your boys. Please have a good weekend,
1:32:47
guys, Yes, have a