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Navigating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition with Mark Elsdon · Future Christian

0:00
Alright, welcome to the show Mark Elsden, thanks so much for being here.
0:03
Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about you?
0:07
Well, my bio ends with a reference to riding my bike, which is, if anyone knows
0:12
me well, the sort of defining thing about what I do with my time.
0:16
It is winter in Wisconsin at the moment, so I am preparing to ride in the snow.
0:21
So you can keep that in mind if you're in a warmer climate.
0:24
well looks like if i if that's a real window behind you look to your blue skies
0:28
today so writing home
0:31
but it is cold and I'm riding my bike home later, yes.
0:36
Yeah, I was actually going to ask you how that's going.
0:40
The bike mileage versus the car mileage.
0:42
It's going, I think I've got it again this year.
0:45
So yeah, more bike, more bike mileage than car mileage.
0:48
Yep.
0:49
That's very impressive.
0:50
Well, thanks so much for your time and looking forward to having this
0:53
conversation.
0:54
Sure.
0:54
If you would, you've been on the pod before, but sure.
0:56
If you would just about kind of your faith journey, what that looked like in the past
1:00
and what that looks like today.
1:03
Yeah, I mean, I'm a Presbyterian minister.
1:06
I grew up, my parents are immigrants from England.
1:11
They were, grew up Church of England, and then I grew up going to a Lutheran church.
1:17
I actually opened my new book, Gone for Good, with a whole series of stories of
1:25
ways that different churches shaped me over the years, everything from...
1:29
giving me my family name in Northern England to a place where I would hide out
1:36
and play basketball instead of going on long runs during cross-country practice in
1:40
high school to meeting my spouse, serving at a meal for food insecure people in
1:49
Berkeley, California, and all these other stories of way churches have shaped me.
1:53
And so, yeah, I'm very conscious of the ways.
1:58
that I am who I am because of the connections I've had to faith communities
2:02
over the years.
2:04
Awesome.
2:05
What's a spiritual practice that you'd say is sustaining you right now?
2:10
Yeah, I, you know, in addition to riding my bike and as sort of an active prayer
2:17
and an active sort of communal living, I recently got a dog.
2:22
I think you have a dog, but I recently got a dog and walking my dog in the
2:26
neighborhood has become a really nice spiritual practice, just, you know, a
2:31
chance to take a break.
2:33
Days that I work from home, I like to just get out for a little brief walk after
2:37
lunch and just to pause.
2:40
Mm-hmm.
2:40
I've been really trying to focus on that sort of Sabbath act, even if I do like to
2:46
take a full Sabbath day, but sometimes it's just a Sabbath act in the middle of a
2:49
day is as powerful as anything.
2:52
So I've been enjoying that.
2:54
Yeah, I'll be doing that when we're done here, so recommend.
2:58
doesn't let you kind of, my dog at least, doesn't let me sort of run around the
3:02
block.
3:02
He likes to poke around and take his time and smell everything and that forces you
3:07
to slow down to something powerful about that.
3:10
Yep, yep, good, good.
3:12
Well, as Mark hinted at, we're talking about his new book called Gone For Good.
3:20
And Mark, you'll have to tell us as we're recording this, is this available yet for
3:24
purchase?
3:25
I imagine when this releases it maybe, when is it coming out?
3:27
How about that?
3:28
The book comes out January 9th, so it is available for pre-order now and any
3:34
pre-orders before that ship I think on the 9th.
3:36
I actually have the book here, my copy of it, but it's available to the public
3:44
January 9th.
3:45
Great, so when this releases it should be available for folks, so check it out at
3:49
minimum if this comes out early for pre-order.
3:52
But we're going to kind of talk through a little teaser video that Mark highlighted
3:57
on his website, kind of talking about the book and talk through some themes here.
4:00
So the first thing in this video you shared, and Mark, I'll try to make sure
4:04
that's included in the show notes, just so folks get that same...
4:09
That same...
4:11
video but the first thing that jumped out to me when I watched that is you share a
4:15
statistic that an estimated 100 000 buildings and again I want to say that
4:21
number 100 000 buildings will be sold or repurposed by 2030 so that number kind of
4:34
astounds me so do you want to talk through that a little bit
4:38
Yeah, I mean, so I think the first thing to note is that these are estimates.
4:42
There's really no really clear data out there.
4:47
Even most denominations don't even know how many buildings are associated with
4:51
their denomination.
4:54
But the estimates that a number of different people have made on this issue
4:59
are somewhere in that range of 100,000 churches closing or buildings being sold
5:05
or repurposed.
5:06
you know those are exactly the same thing but uh...
5:09
but the connected and that's that amounts to a third or a quarter of all churches in
5:14
the united states uh...
5:17
until it's a huge number right so that's the reason the book is references the
5:22
coming wave of church property transition and it really is a massive wave that's
5:27
going to crash upon the shores of american christianity in the next decade now this
5:32
doesn't mean all churches are going to close and
5:34
Right.
5:35
going to be sold and new churches will still happen and emerge and plants will
5:39
happen and some churches will continue to grow.
5:43
All of that, you know, that's all true.
5:45
God's not going anywhere, you know, but there's a massive change happening in the
5:51
way people connect with God and engage in their faith and that's translating into a
5:55
different use of buildings and property.
5:59
I've actually been...
6:00
Thinking about this a little bit recently in terms of kind of the Blockbuster video
6:04
moment that we had in the early 2000s where, you know, there was a shift from
6:10
going down to the Blockbuster store, renting a video off the shelf, taking it
6:14
home, returning it three days later, and suddenly we were getting our DVDs in the
6:18
mail through Netflix.
6:20
And then it wasn't very long after that we were just streaming them.
6:26
you know people still want the experience of watching movie they still want to watch
6:30
a movie but uh...
6:32
the spaces the physical spaces where they access those movies just change
6:36
dramatically and i think there's something similar going on uh...
6:41
in people's spiritual life uh...
6:42
they still want to believe experiences of the divine want to connect with god they
6:46
want to connect with meaning with each other with purpose but it's not happening
6:52
as much
6:53
in Sunday morning worship services and Sunday school Christian education classes,
6:58
which is what we built for decades and decades.
7:02
We built buildings for those things.
7:07
But just kind of berating ourselves for that is not particularly helpful.
7:11
It'd be like telling the Blockbuster Video store manager that they just need to try
7:15
harder and put a new sign outside and kind of just do something better.
7:21
and then people will come back into the store.
7:23
That would never have happened.
7:25
And it doesn't matter how much they tried, right?
7:27
And there's a bit of that dynamic going on in the church today.
7:32
It's just a change in the way people are connecting with God and again, not
7:38
everyone.
7:39
There's always gonna be worship, corporate worship, and there will be good Sunday
7:43
school classes and all of that, and there will be traditional church buildings and
7:48
experiences, but just not as much.
7:51
of it as we had in the past.
7:55
Yeah, you know, if I can stay on that Blockbuster video theme for a second, um,
8:00
my wife and I went to look at renting a new movie streaming on Amazon.
8:05
It was like 10 bucks.
8:07
And I was kind of like, a new video release at Blockbuster was even like five
8:12
bucks back in the day.
8:14
So I don't know what that's about.
8:15
And there's far less overhead.
8:17
Anyway, I digress there.
8:19
So I think a key question, if I remember correctly, you ask in the video is what
8:25
will be left and how will it affect communities and neighborhoods?
8:30
So you've obviously given a lot to thought to this.
8:32
I imagine the book really tackles these questions.
8:36
Do you wanna share some thoughts you've had and some of your contributors have
8:40
had?
8:41
Yeah, so one of the questions I have is not only what does this mean for the
8:48
church or church-going people, which is obviously significant, but what does it
8:52
mean for the social infrastructure of communities, right?
8:55
This space is where things happen.
8:58
Where will the Girl Scout troop meet?
9:01
And where will the AA groups meet?
9:03
Mm-hmm.
9:04
Loads of A groups meet in churches.
9:06
Where will we vote?
9:07
In my community, voting happens at churches all over the city.
9:13
If those churches are something else in 10 years, where are we gonna vote?
9:17
Where will people pick up food at the food pantry?
9:19
Where will they meet significant others?
9:21
And where will kids' violin lessons practice?
9:25
I mean, there's just endless things that happen in churches in addition to the
9:29
spiritual life that is gonna be missing.
9:34
And I don't think we fully recognize that reality of where all that space is going
9:41
and what it becomes.
9:44
And that concerns me.
9:46
And especially if that space moves from being a socially oriented space to being
9:50
basically privately owned and monetized by largely wealthy people, investors,
9:58
developers, and so on, then...
10:00
We've lost a lot.
10:01
We've lost a lot of social infrastructure with that change in use.
10:06
And I think that's a big deal.
10:08
I think it's going to really impact communities in ways that we don't fully
10:12
fathom yet if we just let that happen all over the place.
10:17
Let me give an example just because I just saw something while I was eating lunch on
10:21
threads.
10:22
In my metro area, there was an old Baptist church in a neighborhood that I actually
10:29
lived in when I was a teenager in Denver.
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And I think they tore down part of the church and built condos.
10:36
And then the real historic part of the sanctuary...
10:41
once you know it was a brewery, and now that brewery is actually closing.
10:45
So again, there's this question of what's gonna happen to that space, and of course,
10:48
because I'm totally a church nerd, I said, hey, like, make it a church again.
10:54
Unlikely to happen, someone else said, it's probably gonna become a dispensary.
10:58
But it kind of speaks to your point there of these public spaces becoming less and
11:04
less accessible to the public, and I think that's certainly a...
11:09
A dynamic that I've noticed is this kind of privatization of space where you have
11:15
to you have to essentially pay to get anywhere.
11:19
I'm sure you're you've noticed this too and others have talked about like public
11:23
libraries are one of the few kind of public spaces available in many
11:27
communities and they themselves are being underfunded right?
11:31
That's right.
11:32
Yeah, I mean the Partners for Sacred Places, who has a couple chapters in the
11:36
book, they did a study on the halo effect of churches and one of the amazing things
11:40
they found was that in one area that they studied, I think it was 87% of visits to
11:46
the churches in that community had nothing to do with worship.
11:50
It was just community activity that was going on, right?
11:53
And I mean in my view that's part of what it means to be the church.
11:56
Obviously worship is central but also these other things are too.
12:02
That's how Christian life is lived out in the world, in my view, right?
12:05
It's through that sort of stuff.
12:07
And so, you know, yeah, the privatization and the kind of closing off of space.
12:15
And again, if it happens once or twice in a neighborhood or in a city, that's one
12:20
thing.
12:20
But when it happens with 40 out of 100, that's a completely different story,
12:25
right?
12:25
So if one church building becomes high-end condos,
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all right, maybe that's not a huge deal.
12:31
But again, if 25, 30, 40% of them in a city do, then you've got a real change
12:38
going on.
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And as you noted, it's not going back.
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Like, you know, once those are no longer churches and they're owned privately,
12:47
they're not gonna be churches again and not at any foreseeable future.
12:50
I mean, who knows?
12:51
Obviously things may change and, you know, religious life in America might look
12:55
really different in a hundred years, but in our sort of...
12:59
Yeah.
12:59
and vision, it's not going back to being a church.
13:03
So we have kind of one chance to transition these properties.
13:07
They're going to change one way or the other.
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It doesn't matter whether we want them to or not.
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They just, they are going to sort of like blockbuster.
13:14
But the question before us is what are we going to do about that and how do we sort
13:20
of intentionally think about those transitions in a way that leaves good in
13:25
their place?
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That's why I titled the book Gone for Good.
13:28
gone for good, as in something good coming out, or are they gone forever?
13:33
And that's it, yeah.
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So there's a church that...
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I shouldn't name names here so I won't.
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There's a church in my neck of the woods that is open right now.
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And I have an aspiration of becoming their pastor because my thought is long term,
13:51
like one way or another that property is going to become condos.
13:56
Like they can either develop it...
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Thoughtfully and intentionally in some capacity or it's just gonna get turned
14:02
into all condos one way or another So you propose what you say thoughtful
14:08
intervention to talk about what that might look like
14:12
Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm suggesting is that we shape this transition rather
14:16
than letting it just shape us, because I think if we just let it unfold, we're
14:21
going to be unhappy with the outcome when we look back, say, 20 years from now.
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I mean, if market forces are all that drive, they will push us towards financial
14:29
outcomes and not spiritual or social outcomes that, you know, are about
14:34
flourishing of neighborhoods.
14:35
So...
14:36
In my view, thoughtful intervention is the act of intentionally seeking good in our
14:40
community with the use of property, not just disposing of it, monetizing it, or
14:45
walking away from it, which is very often what happens in the end.
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And so yeah, it's exactly what you described.
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That property you're describing and thinking of is going to look different.
14:57
There's just no question about it.
14:58
So what is the looking different going to be?
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And if it's going to be housing, that could be really cool.
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But what kind of housing?
15:05
Who's going to own the housing?
15:07
Where's the money going when that housing is done?
15:12
Who's going to live in that housing?
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Is that going to contribute to flourishing in that neighborhood, or is it going to
15:17
just further gentrify the neighborhood in some way?
15:19
Those are all the sorts of questions that we, as the church, have a chance to decide
15:25
now, and we won't have a chance to decide later.
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Once a property is sold or redone, that's it.
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We're out of that opportunity to influence what will happen there.
15:39
I appreciate what you're saying about the gone, you know, that kind of the plan
15:44
words gone for good or gone for contributing good because one pastor I've
15:53
spoken to, you know, he really lamented this idea like we're never getting back
15:58
these kind of downtown really core locations that
16:08
were really vital parts of the community.
16:10
So what do you what do you tell churches or middle judicatories?
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What kind of wisdom or thoughts do you ask them to consider before you know they sell
16:22
a property even if it just because of the location for instance?
16:28
Yeah, so Rooted Good, one of the organizations I work with, we actually
16:32
designed a guide how to sell well, which is all about it sort of takes people
16:37
through this decision making process and it's exactly that, right?
16:40
It's thinking about first of all, are there alternatives to selling?
16:44
Because there are many times alternatives to selling.
16:47
I often will ask people simply, why not give it away?
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Give it away to a different church community that can use it or give it.
16:54
give the land back to indigenous peoples that lived there before as an act of
16:58
restoration.
16:59
If we're not using it anyways, I'd rather see that happen potentially than sort of
17:04
monetizing it for private gain.
17:06
Yeah, exactly.
17:08
Or could we do social enterprise on it?
17:10
Or could we partner in some way and develop some, at least some housing or
17:14
something or other that contributes to the neighborhood?
17:18
There's lots of different alternatives.
17:19
But if you are going to sell it, then there's questions around what are you
17:22
going to do with the proceeds?
17:24
Right.
17:25
because there's better and not better things we can do with the money when it
17:30
comes in, right?
17:31
And who are we selling it to?
17:33
Because again, you have one chance to decide who to sell it to.
17:37
I'm not opposed to selling, but I will say that I think that is a cautionary word,
17:45
and that we won't get them back.
17:48
So I'm also the pastor at Press House,
17:54
Our story is super interesting because there were three campus ministry centers
17:58
Presbyterian sold about the same time or attempted to be sold in the late 1990s.
18:04
Our Synod sold the campus center at the University of Minnesota and at the
18:07
University of Iowa and they tried to sell the one here at the University of
18:11
Wisconsin.
18:12
But local people in Madison resisted that sale and instead held onto it and we
18:18
redeveloped the property.
18:19
We have student housing.
18:21
on the property and now fast forward 20 years.
18:25
There's no active Presbyterian ministry at the University of Minnesota or Iowa.
18:29
There's no property at those schools.
18:32
The money that was gained is basically gone.
18:35
Here in Wisconsin, we serve a thousand students a year through our ministry.
18:40
Our property is worth like 25 million dollars and we generate two and a half
18:44
million dollars a year in revenue.
18:45
It's like a completely different outcome.
18:50
you know, it's so starkly different because we decided to do something
18:54
different than just dispose of it.
18:56
Now again, there is too much property, church's own, we will have to dispose of
19:02
in some way, but we can influence the way that is done and what ends up going in
19:08
there at those moments, at those key moments.
19:12
Yeah.
19:14
So we've kind of been talking around this and I want to ask this directly.
19:20
What do we, how about, how about the loss of sacred space?
19:25
I'm a big believer, I'll say in sacred space.
19:30
And to me, at least there's something that as much as I understand the practicalities
19:36
of like a multifunction worship space, I also
19:41
having been someone who's worshiped in a elementary school gymnasium, like, know
19:47
what the downsides of that are.
19:48
So talk about, what do you think about the loss of sacred space, or why or does
19:54
sacred space matter in these contexts?
19:58
Yeah, it does.
19:59
I think you're absolutely right.
20:01
I mean, I believe God's present in all circumstances, in all places, not only
20:07
church or worship, but there is sort of a special promise that God meets us in
20:12
sacred spaces and sacred practices like the sacraments and spaces that are set
20:18
aside for us to pause.
20:21
you know, to put aside the normal activity of life, to think differently, and space
20:25
does that, right?
20:26
When you enter into well-designed space or intentional space, it changes the way we
20:31
think, and I think we need that.
20:33
We need those transitional experiences to allow us to encounter God in different
20:38
ways.
20:38
So absolutely, there is something really valuable about sacred space, and there is
20:44
something sad about seeing a lot of sacred space in the United States.
20:50
decline, not just the church's decline, but the space itself.
20:55
Deferred mansions and things, they start, they leak, you've got issues, right?
21:01
But that is the way things go.
21:03
Things age, things change.
21:06
And so yeah, I absolutely think there is a place for sacred space.
21:11
I think what we're doing now or thinking about now is how does that get sort of
21:17
re-envisioned?
21:18
as part of these multi-use projects if they're being redeveloped.
21:22
And how does it get right-sized a little bit?
21:24
Do we need maybe as much sacred space?
21:26
Maybe not.
21:29
But we still need it, for sure.
21:34
This is a related question.
21:37
And I'm thinking about this in the context of, again, like the prevalence of like
21:41
multi-purpose space.
21:43
And it seems like we're really as a society like thinking, unless you're an
21:47
NFL team, right, then you can get your own dedicated stadium for $5 billion.
21:52
But in most other contexts, it's multi-use, multi-purpose,
21:57
multi-everything.
21:59
And I think about...
22:02
And I may be wrong in this, but my thought is that the kind of thinking has crept its
22:06
way into the church in that a church has got to kind of prove its value to the
22:11
community through multi-usage.
22:14
And I'm curious, this is kind of a big theological question.
22:17
Like is a, is a church building or a space in the church existing only for worship
22:24
and faith formation, like is that enough?
22:26
And I know that's a loaded question, but I'm kind of curious your thoughts there.
22:32
Yeah, I mean, I think it is enough.
22:34
I don't think we need, I don't think we have to have something beyond that.
22:37
I think that is perfectly acceptable as a use of space.
22:42
I think there's a couple of responses I have to that.
22:45
One is, yes, it is enough, but again, there's too much of it for how, it's
22:52
again, it's more a matter of scale and sort of use and size than it is like
22:57
purpose in some ways.
22:58
So,
22:58
Mm-hmm.
23:00
there's just too much of that only space, right?
23:04
For the number of people using it in that way and for what it can do in a community.
23:10
So that's one sort of thought there.
23:12
And then the other is, I do think we, I like to think a bit beyond sort of the
23:16
divide between sacred and worship and faith formation and in other activities.
23:22
So, in my view, giving church land back to indigenous peoples that were there before
23:27
the church, that's an act of worship.
23:29
Mm-hmm.
23:29
And if that space is more than we need, then it's an act of worship to do that.
23:34
Or turning an unused Christian education wing into like a social entrepreneur
23:39
incubator space.
23:41
It's not like it isn't, it's not as if worship's not enough, but doing that is an
23:46
act of faith formation, or it can be.
23:49
Providing long-term housing at cost people can afford is a way of living out.
23:54
our faith commitments of justice and loving our neighbors.
23:57
So I would frame a lot of those activities as expressions of our worship life and our
24:02
faith life, if they're done, again, if they're done sort of well, right?
24:08
So it's a combination of a bit of right sizing of the amount of that space, and
24:14
then also of thinking about different ways to engage with.
24:19
with people.
24:20
And you know, I work with young people and they are very interested in what does it
24:24
mean to live out faith in the day to day and not just in Sunday.
24:28
And these are ways of doing that.
24:31
But I would never say that it's not enough to have, you know, worship in a space is
24:36
not enough.
24:36
It is enough.
24:39
But there's also other, at the same time, there's also other expressions that space
24:43
can be used for.
24:45
So kind of both.
24:46
Yeah.
24:47
that's a helpful response.
24:49
Let me ask this too, and this is more a practical question.
24:56
That's maybe not so much for churches that are thinking about selling or repurposing
25:02
to something non-church related, but this is a dynamic that I've seen that I'm
25:07
curious how you would counsel churches is I think there can be a bit of this.
25:13
what I'll call like a tail wagging the dog scenario where again from my from my bias,
25:18
like I believe the purpose of the church first and first and foremost purposes is
25:24
worship and faith formation right so that's my bias at least where I've seen
25:30
these dynamics where you get rental space or child care whatever and these kind of
25:38
other revenue streams that can support.
25:42
the mission and ministry of the church kind of become almost a tail-whacking the
25:45
dog scenario, at least from my perspective.
25:48
So I'm kind of curious, like, how would you, how would you, I don't know, counsel
25:53
churches, like, like if they're like, hey, we're going to, we're going to develop,
25:56
like, like y'all did, like we're going to develop a, a living situation, a
26:01
residences on our property.
26:03
How do we, how do we organize it?
26:06
How do we do it in a way that we're really living out of our mission and our
26:09
ministry?
26:10
Yeah, I mean I think there's a couple different directions that can take so
26:15
sometimes
26:18
for churches the wise approach is to sort of make use of land and buildings simply
26:24
differently for the good of their community and that might involve a
26:27
partnership with somebody to develop housing or something like that.
26:31
And they might continue their worship life in a smaller part of that.
26:35
Again, it's sort of like fitting down the size a bit and then using that excess for
26:43
other things.
26:48
Even before the COVID pandemic, we're only in use like 17% of the week.
26:53
Like, it's a pretty poor utilization of a really valuable resource, right?
26:59
And if a church is interested in doing social enterprise or sort of development
27:04
that really is connected directly to them and their mission, then we always
27:08
encourage them to think about who they are and who their neighborhood is and how
27:12
those things connect.
27:13
So Rooted Good offers a Good Futures Accelerator program.
27:18
that is designed for churches.
27:20
It's about a seven month program that churches go through to think about using
27:25
their buildings and land for social enterprise, for exactly what you're
27:28
describing, but to do it really thoughtfully, not just to be like, hey, I
27:32
read an article about X, let's do that, but to start all the way back with who are
27:38
we, who has God called us to be over time, what connects to our congregation deeply.
27:44
You know, the projects I've seen that are most interesting are the ones where it's
27:48
tied in with some historical legacy the church is interested in or has been a part
27:53
of.
27:53
So like taking a really powerful food pantry ministry and then expanding it and
28:01
turning that into a grocery co-op owned by the neighborhood.
28:05
So you turn like this sort of beloved 30, 40, 50 year ministry into something.
28:11
that's got a new version of that, but it's still tied in with something historic and
28:15
something that's deeply rooted in who that church is and who the neighborhood is.
28:21
Not just picking some idea off the shelf and innovating for innovation's sake, but
28:26
really trying to ground it in something more meaningful and deeper.
28:31
And I know this was a throwaway comment that you weren't meeting, but I'm thinking
28:34
like, or not just like leasing office space to X slash Twitter.
28:40
Yeah, I mean, so we actually have a tool about how to rent well to really good as
28:45
another guide about how to rent well.
28:46
And we describe we talk about that sort of dynamic of the money and mission
28:53
alignment, like, you know, and there are times sometimes we're just maybe renting
28:58
for money sake to support other parts of mission makes sense, but only doing that
29:02
intentionally and knowing that's what you're doing.
29:05
But but you're right and not doing it in a way that sort of undermines your mission,
29:09
right?
29:09
And you're
29:10
we're trying to accomplish.
29:11
So absolutely, the more we can align money in mission, the better.
29:16
Yeah.
29:17
Yeah, what do you think that, and this is kind of a three part question, so if you
29:22
want to answer all of it or just take one aspect, what do you think that churches or
29:27
pastors or medical judicatories can do to prepare?
29:32
Maybe that's too big of a question.
29:33
Like, maybe what are some warning signs?
29:37
Feel free to answer this how you think is best.
29:40
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a few things I would suggest.
29:43
One is I think we need to be real about where it's going.
29:46
I think that, you know, to not sort of hide or assume, I think I sometimes will
29:52
bluntly say in many settings we're past, we're way past the point of sort of
29:56
talking about revitalization of all of these places.
30:00
I love revitalization.
30:01
There's nothing that's great, but in many settings we're past that point and we need
30:05
to be real about, okay,
30:07
That's not going to happen in this particular instance.
30:09
So then what?
30:10
So be real about it.
30:12
And then do it earlier than later.
30:14
The other thing we're seeing that's really a struggle is when church is way too long
30:18
and there's not many people left to make any good decisions.
30:22
And then they have no choice, but to sort of just stick a for sale sign out in the
30:27
front yard and sell it.
30:30
You know, you really, it takes years.
30:32
And especially if you're going to do development, many, many years.
30:35
three, five, seven, ten sometimes years to do a good thoughtful development.
30:42
Yeah, and so you can't just sort of say, well, we're going to run out of money next
30:46
December and then let's do something about it now.
30:49
It's too late at that point, right?
30:51
So I think thinking ahead is really important.
30:56
And there are, like I'd say there are expert resources, like the, you know,
30:59
good, really good, our accelerator program is super helpful.
31:02
It really works.
31:03
26 churches went through a pilot and all of the ones that finished found it, 90%
31:09
found it helpful and basically all of them have started some new venture of some
31:13
kind.
31:14
Sometimes quite simple and you know, small relative and then some of them are doing
31:22
big development projects and everything in between.
31:24
And so there are resources out there I think that are helping churches and
31:29
judicatories help churches.
31:31
to think differently about this stuff.
31:35
And then ultimately I'd say just let's hold onto hope.
31:37
I mean, for me, this is actually a hopeful moment.
31:39
There's a lot of kind of like, oh gosh, it's closing, it's whatever, whatever.
31:43
And yeah, there's sadness for sure in the same way that when our beloveds die and we
31:49
are sad about that, but we're, at least I believe we're a faith of resurrection, a
31:55
new life.
31:56
And...
31:57
And there's hopefulness and new expressions of what it means to be the
32:01
Christian church that are emerging.
32:03
And so just holding tightly to that as we navigate this coming decade I think is
32:10
going to be really important.
32:12
Yeah, I appreciate that word about not waiting too long because I'm imagining,
32:16
you know, the kind of stereotypical church where they've got nine people left who are
32:20
over, all over 80 like, God bless those people.
32:24
I'm sure they're dedicated and love their church, but they're probably not going to
32:26
have the energy right or the passion to really go do a big undertaking.
32:33
So that's very helpful to think about.
32:36
Like, so what does that do?
32:38
I imagine I'm giving you a chance, I guess, to plug your company here.
32:41
Is that one of the things you all try to do is really like work through some
32:45
strategic planning with churches and say, Hey, like.
32:49
you know if we get if we in this kind of financial pinch or finance or attendance
32:54
numbers look like this or we really like feel like this is what God is calling us
32:58
to like how does that work with churches if that's something you do I guess
33:03
Yeah, I mean, not exactly what you described, but like I said, I mean, the
33:06
accelerator program that we have is designed for churches to do on their own.
33:10
They can access, they get a box sent to them in the mail with all the guides they
33:15
need and all these beautiful table sheets and some games and gamified activities for
33:21
their leadership team and for the congregation to do.
33:24
And then they access some video content and they work through this process
33:28
together that leads them to
33:31
some ideas about what to actually do, some actual ideas around social enterprise.
33:37
And again, it's not sort of a general revitalization curriculum or a general
33:42
Bible study curriculum, but it's really focused on, okay, we have these assets,
33:46
this building, this land, we have vision of maybe some ideas, maybe not.
33:53
We have people that live around us and that work around us.
33:57
And what can we do to...
33:59
put forward new expressions of our ministry in the world through these
34:03
resources.
34:04
And it works.
34:06
People do it and it works.
34:08
And so, you know, we're really excited about that because we think there's a lot
34:12
of potential for that to move folks forward.
34:16
They'll still need to find partners when they get through the other side on that,
34:20
some of that stuff, especially if you're developing property, you can't do that on
34:23
your own.
34:24
But
34:26
We've seen so many churches try to skip over this discernment phase and just go
34:31
straight to sort of real estate transactions.
34:34
And that is not particularly helpful way to start.
34:41
We think it's really helpful to start with like grounding in who we are, what we're
34:46
about, what ideas are, what our theological commitments are, who our
34:51
neighborhood is, what do we want to see, what does flourishing look like.
34:55
Right.
34:55
from there.
34:57
And then the other technical stuff works itself out after those other parts are
35:02
clear.
35:03
Yeah, that's a good word.
35:04
Whether it's something as big as property development or as little as like starting
35:09
a new ministry, like really knowing like does this flow out of who we are and what
35:14
we want to be.
35:15
That's a good, that's a good reminder.
35:17
So let's, let's do last question here before we take a break.
35:22
I wonder like, do you have like a nightmare scenario where you wake up in
35:25
2030 and you're like, oh my goodness, this has come to pass.
35:29
Like.
35:31
Or do you have, and then conversely, what's your dream scenario, if that makes
35:35
sense?
35:36
I mean, I think the nightmares here, I've sort of hinted at, which is, you know, 20
35:39
years from now, we have like 40 percent less socially oriented property, church
35:44
property and so on.
35:46
That's now no longer being used for the community in any way, but it's privately
35:51
owned.
35:52
That's been monetized for private purposes and is never accessible again.
35:58
I mean, one of the one of the folks that wrote a chapter in
36:01
gone for good, walks by regularly the location where he was ordained as a
36:08
pastor.
36:09
But that location is now simply a high-rise, high-end condo building that
36:13
you can never – he can't even get into it.
36:16
You know, and nobody – nothing happens there besides a few wealthy people living
36:21
there.
36:21
And again, there's nothing wrong with people living somewhere.
36:24
But that's a shame when that – if that happens to all these properties.
36:30
To me, that's the worst case scenario.
36:32
If it happens to a few of them, fine, but of all of them, that would be a real
36:36
shame.
36:37
I think the best case is sort of, it's not that, right?
36:40
It's buildings and land that are housing people that need places to live and
36:44
feeding people through grocery co-ops and engaging people through community centers
36:48
and restoring people through land back and inspiring people through social
36:53
entrepreneurship.
36:54
It's being the church with our buildings and land, right?
36:57
It's like...
36:58
doing the things that the church can do and joining in with communities and with
37:05
restorative, justice-oriented, life-giving activity and leaving the good news out
37:12
with our buildings and land.
37:13
And I think that actually can also happen.
37:15
That's the other possible place we end up.
37:19
I'm hoping it's more of the latter than the former.
37:21
Yeah, I watch a lot of like urban planning type YouTubes And people who don't come
37:29
across as like Real devoted to the church even they like mention like what a loss it
37:34
is when an old historic church is Torn down or just turned into condos like
37:38
people even in the community who may not be a part of A weekly attendant recognize
37:45
the value that these spaces are.
37:47
So I'm with you.
37:49
I'm hoping for something more positive here.
37:51
Let's take a break and we'll come back with some closing questions.
37:54
All right, my dogs were going bonkers there for a minute.
37:58
Two.
37:58
All right, do you need a minute or else I'll reintroduce you.
38:04
All right.
38:04
All right.
38:07
All right.
38:09
Alright we're back with Mark Elsden.
38:10
Mark thanks so much for your time.
38:12
The book is again gone for good.
38:14
Should be available wherever books are sold so check it out.
38:18
Mark you can take these closing questions as seriously or not as you'd like to.
38:22
Although I don't know if people would be cool if you answered about selling the
38:27
Vatican for condos.
38:29
So if you're Pope for a day, besides selling the Vatican for condos, what would
38:34
you do?
38:37
Yeah, if I was Pope for the day, well, I assume you mean if I had the ability to
38:43
influence the church at a scale like that.
38:46
Yeah, I'll answer it fairly sort of technically because this is my area, I
38:51
guess, and keep it in this space.
38:53
So my previous book, which we talked about a couple of years ago on this podcast, We
38:57
Aren't Broke, is focused on...
39:00
church investment money mostly.
39:02
So I did have a chapter in there about property, but mostly it was about
39:05
investment money, savings, and my real dream would be to see both these pieces
39:12
come together.
39:12
So putting church investment money, taking it out of the stock market and out of
39:17
traditional investments, at least some of it, and moving it into investing in social
39:23
enterprise and development on church property, and bringing those two
39:27
powerhouses together
39:30
It's literally trillions of dollars around the world of assets, both property assets
39:36
and investment assets, and putting them together to work for mission-oriented
39:42
social enterprise activity is just super exciting to me.
39:45
So it might, it's maybe not funny, but it is a dream that I have.
39:51
If I had the opportunity to say, let's do this, let's do this.
39:56
We've got what we need.
39:57
We have everything there.
39:58
Let's just get on and...
39:59
and do some cool stuff with it.
40:02
Yeah.
40:02
got the spirit of the question, so good job there.
40:07
A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to
40:11
life.
40:13
Yeah, that's interesting.
40:14
It's actually not something I think about very often, to be totally honest with you,
40:17
but I did think about it when you shared this question with me that I'd love to
40:24
meet this guy, St.
40:25
Cuthbert.
40:26
He's a seventh century saint from northern England and near the Scottish border, what
40:31
is now the Scottish border.
40:33
And in part because there's a connection to my family name that came out of a
40:39
church where St.
40:39
Cuthbert's body lay
40:42
centuries ago, but also he was the most remarkable person.
40:45
He lived on this tiny island called Lindisfarne Holy Island off of the east
40:52
coast of England.
40:53
And then that island that's so tiny was too big for him, so he moved to a tinier
40:58
island off of that island and lived by himself amongst the birds.
41:04
And he's just got some amazing stories.
41:06
This is way back seventh century Christianity.
41:10
some of the earliest European Christianity that existed.
41:14
So I just think it'd be really interesting to talk with somebody like that.
41:17
I have no idea what they would think of any of what we have discussed today, but
41:22
it'd be fascinating, yeah.
41:25
what do you think history will remember from our current time and place?
41:29
Well again, and the theme that we're at right today, I think we're at a real key
41:33
inflection point in American Christianity at least.
41:37
Different elsewhere in the world, but we're living through not just an
41:40
incremental shift, but a major shift in the way people engage their faith.
41:44
I mean, as we read any of this sort of information coming out of any of the
41:47
studies around this, this is a huge moment in what Christianity's gonna look like in
41:54
the United States, and it has implications all over the place.
41:59
So I don't know, I mean there's a sense of responsibility, a bit of sense of awe, a
42:04
bit of sense of fear, and also hopefully a sense of hope, because all of that's
42:08
happening right now.
42:10
Well, let's stay on that theme and frame this way.
42:13
What do you hope for at least American Christianity then?
42:18
Yeah, I'm gonna, if it's okay, I'm gonna just read a few sentences from the book on
42:23
that because, um, so, I think that letting go of property can be freeing,
42:31
relinquishing control can be life-giving to others, giving land back can be deeply
42:36
healing, and redeveloping can be restorative.
42:40
Repurposing church property is a chance to do something new.
42:44
It allows us to think differently, to see more vividly, listen more deeply, and love
42:48
more fully.
42:50
It's an opportunity to take the good news outside the Sunday worship service.
42:55
The transition of church property is one of the largest issues facing the church
42:58
today.
42:59
It is also one of our greatest opportunities.
43:03
Yes, churches, buildings, and property will be gone.
43:06
Of this, there is no doubt.
43:08
But, I'm incredibly hopeful that new and good things will emerge.
43:12
and that they will be gone for good.
43:16
That's good.
43:17
Let's leave it there.
43:17
So always leave folks with a word of peace.
43:19
So may God's peace be with you.
43:24
All right, we're done.