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How the Rules of War Work · Stuff You Should Know

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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
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Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, and welcome to
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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always Charles W.
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Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant Party and we're recording this is stuff you
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Speaker 1: should know the aggressive version. Hey dude, Hey, dude, how
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Speaker 1: are you? I'm tired. Hey, We're almost out of here. Man,
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Speaker 1: I'm not. Let's wrap this puppy up. I'm not almost
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Speaker 1: out of here. This is just like the middle of
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Speaker 1: my day. You're working to like ten, and then you
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Speaker 1: working Saturday. I'm working Sunday, So are you, Poul? That's right? Um, Chuck? Yes, Josh.
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Speaker 1: Do you remember when we talked about brainwashing? We did
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Speaker 1: a brainwashing one, right, Yeah? I enjoyed that one. I
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Speaker 1: did too. Do you remember we talked about the Koreans
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Speaker 1: brainwash American Peo dotes that's against the rules the rules
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Speaker 1: of what the rules of war. I have more examples.
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Speaker 1: Do you have you ever heard of the dak How massacre,
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Speaker 1: the Dacha? Yes, yeah, you have the Dacha massacre. Yes
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Speaker 1: you have, well, I mean you've you secretly told me,
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Speaker 1: have you seen well, you've seen Shutter Island, right, Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was a connection there. Yeah, the
1:28
Speaker 1: flashbacks where Leonardo DiCaprio is like in the army and
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Speaker 1: they're at this concentration camp and they're shooting the German guards.
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Speaker 1: That actually happened, Yes, at Dachau. The American liberators who
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Speaker 1: came like came and saw this and like, we're apparently
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Speaker 1: so overwhelmed by it that they lined up the s
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Speaker 1: S officers against the wall, seventy five of them and
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Speaker 1: shot him. I guess I didn't know about it then. Yeah, so, um,
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Speaker 1: it didn't come out until two do one actually that
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Speaker 1: this actually happened. It was covered up, ignored, but it
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Speaker 1: was against the rules. I can't do that, ABU great,
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Speaker 1: remember that one. Yeah, that's been the news that was
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Speaker 1: against like six or seven different rules, and all of
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Speaker 1: these are there against the rules of war. It's actually
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Speaker 1: kind of to me a triumph of the human spirit
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Speaker 1: to know that there we've tried to figure out how
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Speaker 1: to create structure insanity in a chaotic and insane institution.
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Speaker 1: That's why do we look at it? What's another way, Well,
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Speaker 1: what I was the most struck with was that how
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Speaker 1: messed up it is that you have to keep revisiting
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Speaker 1: this over the years because all of these rules that
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Speaker 1: are in here are there because someone tried to do
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Speaker 1: something awful to someone else, and that they said you
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Speaker 1: can't do that in war, right, And so then then
2:49
Speaker 1: they said, oh, well, then let's think of something else
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Speaker 1: awful we can do, and then they said, well, you
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Speaker 1: can't do that now either. Well. In this article that
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Speaker 1: Julia Layton wrote how the Rules of War work, she
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Speaker 1: makes the point that as the technology of war progresses,
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Speaker 1: it usually means that we're going to we are figuring
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Speaker 1: out more horrible ways to inflict damage on one another.
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Speaker 1: And so as that happens as technology progresses, the people
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Speaker 1: who oversee the rules of war are trying to come
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Speaker 1: up with new ways to stem that progression. Right. But yeah,
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Speaker 1: that that's a little mopier way of looking at it
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Speaker 1: than mine. That's weird because you're usually the moupier one.
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Speaker 1: Usually interesting, Chuck, Let's talk about the rules of war.
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Speaker 1: Where did they come from? How long have they been around? Well,
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Speaker 1: they've been around for a long time, but prior to
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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, they were established per battle and per
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Speaker 1: countries participating in that battle, and that was where they
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Speaker 1: ended there, like for this skirmish where you can do this,
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Speaker 1: this and this, but you can't do this, this and this.
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Speaker 1: Once that skirmish was over, or once that war was over,
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Speaker 1: then they would say, all right, for forget all that then,
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Speaker 1: and let's just we'll make up a new set of
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Speaker 1: rules if we fight again. Yeah, And then next time
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Speaker 1: they were like, no, was scalping. That was messed up
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Speaker 1: last time, do not scalp in this one. Finally, at
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Speaker 1: some point, uh, well, actually we know exactly the point. Um.
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Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty nine, a guy named Henry de Nant,
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Speaker 1: who went on to found the Red Cross UM and
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Speaker 1: was one of the was the co recipient of the
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Speaker 1: first Nobel Prize. I understand, huh. Um came upon a
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Speaker 1: battlefield after the Battle of Salaferno in Italy in eighteen
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Speaker 1: fifty nine. That's German and Italian in one podcast. Um.
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Speaker 1: He came upon this battlefield, I guess right after the
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Speaker 1: battle that happened, and there were all these dying wounded
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Speaker 1: soldiers laying around, and he he gathered up the villagers
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Speaker 1: around the countryside and said, we have to treat these
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Speaker 1: people and treat everybody both sides because we're human beings
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Speaker 1: and that's what we do. That's one of the things
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Speaker 1: that the Red Cross still does today in wars. Their
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Speaker 1: neutral party, not on either side, the Red Cross and
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Speaker 1: the Red Crescent um and they treat everybody regardless of
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Speaker 1: um what side they're on. Sure, right, Um, So that
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Speaker 1: happened in eighteen fifty nine. It gave birth to the
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Speaker 1: Red Cross, and it gave birth to the first Geneva Convention, right, yes.
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Speaker 1: And I think I told you at some point we
5:16
Speaker 1: were chatting about this that the whole convention aspect of
5:19
Speaker 1: it kind of cracks me up a little bit because
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Speaker 1: I always picture like a bunch of world leaders with
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Speaker 1: their name tags. Hi, my name is kaiserville Helm mulling
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Speaker 1: about some Hilton conference room. Imagine that's how it went out.
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Speaker 1: But uh, with the first Geneva Convention, is uh when
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Speaker 1: they in eighteen sixty four, did you already say that
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Speaker 1: they started becoming an international thing where it crossed the boundaries,
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Speaker 1: that crossed the time frames and there were solid rules
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Speaker 1: for everybody for any more they were just standing rules
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Speaker 1: of war. That looks more sustinct way saying it. Sure,
5:55
Speaker 1: and the first, the first Geneva Convention produced the Convention
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Speaker 1: for the Amelioration of the Edition of the Wounded and
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Speaker 1: Sick and Armed Forces in the Field. Yeah. Yeah, that
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Speaker 1: was the first one. Like you said, over time, as
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Speaker 1: we saw new atrocities take place, they went and created
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Speaker 1: and amended the existing conventions, created new ones. So there
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Speaker 1: was a Convention Um that addressed sick shipwrecked members of
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Speaker 1: the Armed Forces at sea. Yeah. They forgot the seamen
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Speaker 1: and the first one and they said, yeah, we gotta
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Speaker 1: think about those guys exactly. There's the rules can governing
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Speaker 1: the treatment of POW's. And then the fourth Convention Um,
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Speaker 1: which is ratified in nineteen fifty four, was the treatment
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Speaker 1: of civilians, not surprisingly shortly after World War two. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: and actually after World War two that drove the first
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Speaker 1: Geneva Convention, and actually the first three we're all created
6:48
Speaker 1: before World War two, um, And people were like, that's
6:52
Speaker 1: really nice, we like that, it's a great idea. And
6:54
Speaker 1: then World War two happened and everybody came to the
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Speaker 1: table under the auspices of the u IN and said
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Speaker 1: we we need these. So a hundred and ninety countries
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Speaker 1: have ratified the Geneva Conventions, and you get the impression
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Speaker 1: that if you want to be recognized as a sovereign
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Speaker 1: nation internationally, that's one of the steps toward toward being
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Speaker 1: an independent nations. You got to ratify the Geneva Conventions. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: otherwise what are you doing? You're just some rogue jerk
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Speaker 1: jerk country. So that's the Geneva Conventions, and we'll get
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Speaker 1: more into those later, but they're also everyone's heard of
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Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention. Not many people have heard of the
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Speaker 1: Hague Conventions, although they should because they were just as important.
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Speaker 1: There were the Haguen the Netherlands is where these took place,
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Speaker 1: and they were called the also called the International Peace Conferences. Yeah,
7:44
Speaker 1: about the same time that the Geneva Conventions were being held, right, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: And they had one in seven They were gonna have
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Speaker 1: one peace conference and then they decided to cancel it
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Speaker 1: and have a World war instead, and that was World
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Speaker 1: War One, obviously, and they the hag Conventions fall into
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Speaker 1: categories of combat, weaponry, property rights, and duties of neutral countries.
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Speaker 1: But in addition, so a lot of the a lot
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Speaker 1: of the rules established in the Hage Conventions are similar
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Speaker 1: to the rules of the Geneva convensions. They overlap, but
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Speaker 1: one of one of the things that defines the Hague
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Speaker 1: Conventions specifically is that there are steps outlined to prevent war. Right,
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Speaker 1: So there's UM two in the lead up the build
8:28
Speaker 1: up to war. There's steps you have to take too
8:31
Speaker 1: to be in step legally with the Hag Conventions, which
8:34
Speaker 1: are there's like a thirty day cooling off period time
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Speaker 1: out right, UM, arbitration, mediation, liberation, Sorry that was in
8:44
Speaker 1: access UM Committees of inquiry. Yeah, Basically, you have to
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Speaker 1: UM also declare war formally, or you have to declare
8:52
Speaker 1: an ultimatum saying like give me back my sandwich and
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Speaker 1: pull your troops out of my South Asian territories, or
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna come at you. And that's after they've gone
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Speaker 1: through all the previous steps, the thirty day time out
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Speaker 1: in the corner and everything else has failed. Then you
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Speaker 1: have to officially send the evite saying we're going to
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Speaker 1: attack you at some point, not to distance surprise attack
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Speaker 1: illegal Pearl harbor and actually right, that's illegal. UM. That's
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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why they the democratic peace theory works.
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Speaker 1: So democratic peace theories based on the idea that democracies,
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Speaker 1: especially democracies that follow these conventions, are so transparent that
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Speaker 1: two democracies will never go to war because they're both
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Speaker 1: following the same transparent steps in the lead up to war,
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Speaker 1: and communication will be um much more open um. One
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Speaker 1: of the you a surprise attack is impossible, not only illegal,
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Speaker 1: but impossible because they have vibrant independent media. Right, so
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Speaker 1: so democratic piece theory says that two democracies will never
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Speaker 1: go to war. I don't know that's necessarily true, but
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Speaker 1: it's based in part on this Hague convention. Thanks so
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Speaker 1: combat and weaponry and the Hague Conventions. They're pretty obvious.
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Speaker 1: Things like you can't fly a white flag and then
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Speaker 1: shoot someone in the face, which apparently Iraqi soldiers did
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Speaker 1: in two thousand three in the US invaded. Not very nice. Illegal,
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Speaker 1: You cannot if a person has surrendered or as injured,
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Speaker 1: then that's it for them. You can't go shoot them
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Speaker 1: in the face. I mean, you gotta treat him. While
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Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a minute too. If a
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Speaker 1: person has a visible or an audible speech impediment, you
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Speaker 1: can't make fun of him. That's very true. You can't
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Speaker 1: attack a defenseless person. You can't like attack a hospital
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Speaker 1: or a building being used as a hospital. No, that's
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Speaker 1: what they call using a human shield. And there's a
10:47
Speaker 1: huge no no, and it's yeah, that's big time jerk
10:51
Speaker 1: quality right there. Uh. Natural, And see, this is what
10:55
Speaker 1: I thought was kind of interesting. National and cultural symbols
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Speaker 1: are protected, So you can't desecrate a flag or use
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Speaker 1: the enemy's flag. You can like dress up as a
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Speaker 1: soldier and say I'm really a Nazi, even though all
11:06
Speaker 1: those movies they always did stuff like that. Yeah, well
11:08
Speaker 1: it's illegal. Inglorious. Maybe it's sensible, but it's illegal. Yeah.
11:12
Speaker 1: The whole movie they were dressed up, well not the
11:14
Speaker 1: whole movie, but a significant portion of it. Yeah, they
11:16
Speaker 1: dressed his Nazis to kill Nazis. That was a great movie.
11:20
Speaker 1: It was pretty awesome, Chuck. You also can't hide out
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Speaker 1: in museums or libraries, well yeah, you can't. Certainly can't
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Speaker 1: bomb them, just like just like a hospital, they're protected
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Speaker 1: as well. To talk a little more about later, Um,
11:35
Speaker 1: and there's certain weapons you can't use. The Higgs specifically,
11:38
Speaker 1: says Um. The right of belligerents to adopt means of
11:42
Speaker 1: injuring the enemy is not unlimited. Right, So basically, you
11:46
Speaker 1: can't use poison bullets, you can't use poison gas, you
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Speaker 1: can't use weapons that are designed to inflict further harm
11:53
Speaker 1: beyond the initial injury. Yeah, Like they have those bullets
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Speaker 1: that once they get inside of you start doing all
11:59
Speaker 1: sorts of wacky thing for further damage. Like they have
12:02
Speaker 1: the bow ties that spin around, flapping dickies. Uh. Chemical
12:07
Speaker 1: and biological warfare is made illegal all the way back in. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Sarin gas, chlorine gas, uh, mustard gas, all those are
12:16
Speaker 1: old timey poison gases. Yeah. Yeah, smallpox can't do that.
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Speaker 1: So we were talking about wounded and sick. Uh. Basically
12:25
Speaker 1: the Hague Conventions spells it out pretty clearly. If you're
12:28
Speaker 1: wounded and you're sick, or if you see us another
12:31
Speaker 1: soldier an enemy that's wounded or sick, you gotta help him. Yeah,
12:34
Speaker 1: and we should probably say about at this point that
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Speaker 1: you can, um, you can break down the Hagen Geneva
12:38
Speaker 1: Conventions by like combat weaponry treatment a civilian ship, or
12:43
Speaker 1: you can look at them the rules for overarching as
12:46
Speaker 1: they apply to the different groups involved, and the group
12:49
Speaker 1: with the least amount of protection are active combatants, right,
12:52
Speaker 1: but once you be once you're injured or you're sick
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Speaker 1: and you're no longer capable of fighting, you slip into
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Speaker 1: the sick or wounded soldier category and you suddenly enjoy
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Speaker 1: far more protections than if you have a gun and
13:06
Speaker 1: you're coming at somebody. Right. Well, yeah, not like I said,
13:08
Speaker 1: not only can you not uh shoot the guy in
13:11
Speaker 1: the face, you have to help them or at least
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Speaker 1: allow them to be helped by like the Red Cross,
13:16
Speaker 1: right and chuck Like, you can't just walk away right now,
13:20
Speaker 1: like after a battle. You can't just walk away from
13:23
Speaker 1: the battlefield after you've won. You can't just release the chows.
13:26
Speaker 1: Which did you know that that's what childs were originally
13:28
Speaker 1: bred for in China? Did not know that they would
13:31
Speaker 1: release them onto the battlefield? They chew the throat side
13:33
Speaker 1: of survivors. Yes, is that what the suckers are? So
13:36
Speaker 1: puffy and mean? Um, we used to have childs. Actually
13:39
Speaker 1: they're not mean, so you, but they are protective. You
13:42
Speaker 1: can do some damage, true, Um, but you can't release
13:45
Speaker 1: the child's out in the battlefield. But not only that,
13:47
Speaker 1: you can't just walk away from the battle field. You
13:49
Speaker 1: you have to um help injured soldiers. You gotta help
13:55
Speaker 1: it the injured, and you gotta clean your plate. You
13:58
Speaker 1: can't just leave the deadline around every No, as a
14:01
Speaker 1: matter of fact, you have to give the enemy soldiers
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Speaker 1: that you've killed a burial that's appropriate to their religions.
14:10
Speaker 1: You're supposed to and at the beginning of every war,
14:13
Speaker 1: they're supposed to be a graves Registration Service, which is
14:16
Speaker 1: neutral party like the Red Cross, and it's possibly operated
14:20
Speaker 1: by the Red Cross. Where you bury a bunch of
14:22
Speaker 1: soldiers and you say you you contact the graves Registration
14:26
Speaker 1: Service and say, there's a bunch of dead soldiers here
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Speaker 1: we killed, and they're buried here and here the coordinates,
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Speaker 1: and the the graves Registration Service provides each side with these coordinates.
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Speaker 1: After the wars, the bodies can be exhumed and sent home.
14:40
Speaker 1: Well yeah, not only that, but you're you're supposed to
14:42
Speaker 1: return all property found on the body. So you can't
14:45
Speaker 1: like you see in the movies where you go looting
14:47
Speaker 1: the body of of trinkets and things to take home
14:50
Speaker 1: like a broach. Right, let's say you can't do that.
14:54
Speaker 1: You're supposed to mail that to their next of ken,
14:58
Speaker 1: which kind of wonder about that how often that happens.
15:01
Speaker 1: I wonder it myself. You cannot perform experiments on a
15:05
Speaker 1: wounded or sick person like the Nazis love to do.
15:09
Speaker 1: That's a big one. Uh. And that's about it for
15:12
Speaker 1: the second wounded, and it's biological experiments. But I think
15:16
Speaker 1: also brainwashing sure constitute an experiment, and you're not allowed
15:21
Speaker 1: to do that either. UM. So let's say that you
15:25
Speaker 1: have been caught, you you are, you received treatment from
15:29
Speaker 1: the enemy, um, and they're like, well, you're well, now
15:33
Speaker 1: you're a pow. Do you still have some pretty wide
15:38
Speaker 1: um protections? Actually? Yeah, this is a fact at your
15:42
Speaker 1: next cocktail party that you should pull out of your
15:44
Speaker 1: hip pocket. You. If you're a pow, you're a prisoner
15:48
Speaker 1: of the country, not a prisoner of the soldier or
15:51
Speaker 1: the platoon or the commander in chief of that region.
15:55
Speaker 1: You're a prisoner of the United States of America if
15:58
Speaker 1: that's who is fighting against America America. But not only that, um,
16:02
Speaker 1: your detention is legal under international law. Therefore, an escape
16:08
Speaker 1: is illegal and can be punished unless you make it
16:13
Speaker 1: to your other side, to your side, and then they
16:15
Speaker 1: wipe this slight clean, right, it's totally clean like you
16:17
Speaker 1: were never captured in the first place. So if you're
16:19
Speaker 1: a spy and you're caught and your hell is a POW,
16:23
Speaker 1: you're going to be tried as a spy and possibly hanged.
16:26
Speaker 1: If you escape two, say an occupied territory that your
16:31
Speaker 1: army controls, you are your detention is just wiped off
16:36
Speaker 1: the map. And if you're caught again, say as a
16:39
Speaker 1: regular soldier, you can't be tried as a spy. It's
16:43
Speaker 1: like it never happened. Isn't that interesting? That's kind of
16:45
Speaker 1: cool telling about name rank and serial number. Yeah, you've
16:49
Speaker 1: you've often heard that in movies. Um, that is definitely
16:52
Speaker 1: a part of the Third Geneva Convention. But it is
16:54
Speaker 1: not merely for name identification. But you are awarded privileges
16:58
Speaker 1: if you are an off sir in europow, Like you
17:01
Speaker 1: don't have to dig the latrine ditches like the privates
17:05
Speaker 1: and the corporals do. If you're an officer, you have
17:07
Speaker 1: a little bit of a I don't know about cush
17:09
Speaker 1: your life, but you could drink ticket every day. You
17:12
Speaker 1: can train. But it's like when you see all the
17:15
Speaker 1: World War two movies, like The Great Escape, the Officers, Um,
17:19
Speaker 1: they were always had a little bit better deal than
17:23
Speaker 1: than their men, like they were the ones. Like Hogan's heroes,
17:27
Speaker 1: Hogan was always meeting with the uh what was with claim?
17:33
Speaker 1: But the rest of the guys wouldn't meet. It was
17:34
Speaker 1: always Hogan because he was the main, the main man.
17:37
Speaker 1: Did you ever see Auto Focus? You're gonna say that
17:41
Speaker 1: it's hard to watch Hogan's heroes ever again? And auto Focus? God,
17:45
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, it's right up your alley. H
17:47
Speaker 1: The other thing about POWs is, um they are prisoners,
17:51
Speaker 1: much like a civilian prisoner would be, and they're innocent
17:56
Speaker 1: until proven guilty, supposedly, and you have to treat him
17:59
Speaker 1: as such. Um. So, if you are captured, is a
18:03
Speaker 1: POW you are, or if you're captured you're required to
18:07
Speaker 1: grant this person POW status if you're supposed to err
18:11
Speaker 1: on the side of caution. There's very sure whether they're
18:14
Speaker 1: POW or not, right, but there's a very specific qualifications
18:17
Speaker 1: that you have to classify them. If they are obviously
18:20
Speaker 1: members of the armed force. They can be a member
18:22
Speaker 1: of a militia or a volunteer corps. Right, still got
18:26
Speaker 1: to be a pow. Right, they could be some guy
18:29
Speaker 1: who you who happened to be like carrying a gun
18:31
Speaker 1: out in the open, and you still have to say
18:34
Speaker 1: we're going to treat you like a POW until we
18:36
Speaker 1: set up a tribunal and they say, no, he's not
18:39
Speaker 1: a POW. Is a common criminal. Members of the media
18:41
Speaker 1: traveling with the armed forces, they have to be granted
18:44
Speaker 1: POW status and it's about it a cruise of merchant
18:49
Speaker 1: marine and civil aircraft they're working with army. One of
18:51
Speaker 1: the reasons why Abu Grab and the treatment, the degradation
18:56
Speaker 1: at Abu Grab was so illegal was because these combatants
19:00
Speaker 1: weren't granted POW status right off the bat. These captured
19:05
Speaker 1: combatants were treated as criminals. Basically, they were imprisoned. So
19:11
Speaker 1: that's one. You can't imprison a POW. You can intern
19:13
Speaker 1: them in an internment camp. Do they have borders, but
19:17
Speaker 1: not a cell. It's another one. Unless they're like a
19:20
Speaker 1: specific danger, then you can work around that, which is
19:23
Speaker 1: probably what they said. Um, you can't subject them to
19:25
Speaker 1: degrading treatment interrogation. Interrogation basically amounts to you ask him
19:31
Speaker 1: a question and it's up to them whether they want
19:32
Speaker 1: to answer it or not. And if they don't want
19:34
Speaker 1: to answer then you that's it. You can't ask them
19:37
Speaker 1: again even they can't be coerced or tortured under any
19:40
Speaker 1: definition of torture. Um, and you can't, um, they can't
19:46
Speaker 1: their detention can't be paraded in front of the media.
19:51
Speaker 1: That was another thing too. I mean you remember Lyndy
19:53
Speaker 1: England right, pointing and like, did you ever see the
19:56
Speaker 1: mad magazine one? Or is alfredy Newman is now it's again? Um?
20:01
Speaker 1: So there were several reasons why Abu Gray was just
20:04
Speaker 1: so horrendous. Well, yeah, and you also have to grant
20:06
Speaker 1: them any any rights that your own soldiers get like food, water, shelter, clothing, exercise,
20:14
Speaker 1: correspondence like you have to. You have to let them
20:17
Speaker 1: know exactly where they are, and you have to make
20:21
Speaker 1: them available to receive mail from their families. Yeah. Not
20:25
Speaker 1: only did you have to tell them where they are,
20:27
Speaker 1: you have to give them the mailing address so that
20:29
Speaker 1: they can receive care packages, letters, whatever. Crazy So Chuck,
20:35
Speaker 1: that's POWs right, Ah, yeah, pretty much. Let's talk about civilians.
20:39
Speaker 1: Do you remember Red Dawn. We've talked about this often.
20:44
Speaker 1: I should say that recently when we were hanging out
20:46
Speaker 1: with our friend Chad, he remarked after I said that
20:49
Speaker 1: I had just recently seen The Fly David Krodenberg's The
20:52
Speaker 1: Fly for the first time, that he had just seen
20:54
Speaker 1: Red don for the first time. And you, I thought,
20:56
Speaker 1: we're gonna beat him up, punch him in the face.
21:01
Speaker 1: I just don't understand how you could. He's our age
21:05
Speaker 1: our ages. Yeah, he seems like it. He should have
21:08
Speaker 1: seen Red Dawn long before this. That's hadn't seen war
21:11
Speaker 1: games if you were a child, like a teenage boy
21:14
Speaker 1: in the eighties. So back to it, read Dawn. Well, okay,
21:18
Speaker 1: so you remember Harry Dean Stanton where Jed and Charlie
21:23
Speaker 1: Sheen come to Jed and who it was Swayzie and
21:27
Speaker 1: Jean wasn't. Yeah, but I can't remember Thomas. Did they
21:30
Speaker 1: all three go? Possibly, but it was definitely Jed and
21:34
Speaker 1: his brother, Um, And they go to see their father,
21:37
Speaker 1: who happens to be Harry Dean Stanton. He's in turn.
21:41
Speaker 1: Notice he's not in a cell. They've put up fencing
21:44
Speaker 1: around the drive in right, and they're projecting propaganda up
21:47
Speaker 1: onto the screen and they're playing like Russian Soviet music. Um,
21:52
Speaker 1: that's legal. Right. When he passes by, I think Arturo's father,
21:57
Speaker 1: who's getting like a German shepherd to the face. Yeah,
22:00
Speaker 1: that's highly illegal. Can't use the dogs, No, you can't,
22:04
Speaker 1: um the chows. No, no child's, no German shops, no
22:07
Speaker 1: dogs of any kind. Um. When the Russians landed and
22:11
Speaker 1: opened fire on the unarmed high school students, that's highly
22:14
Speaker 1: illegal to I mean, they just flat out shot up
22:16
Speaker 1: that teacher, remember that. Yeah, and that kid too. Yeah,
22:19
Speaker 1: the kid's hanging out the window. That was one of
22:21
Speaker 1: the most disturbing images of my young life. Very impactful. See.
22:25
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a wolverine. Oh yeah, so did I.
22:29
Speaker 1: And and I guess all little boys like playing war.
22:31
Speaker 1: But I mean I didn't know I was going to
22:32
Speaker 1: be a peace nick later on. But at the time, man,
22:35
Speaker 1: I was like, bring it, I'll get a gun, I'll
22:37
Speaker 1: go to the woods, pack of football and some canned beans.
22:42
Speaker 1: I wish that, um, you could take the video of
22:45
Speaker 1: your life and edit it, because I would make a
22:49
Speaker 1: montage of all the times I shouted wolverines, like in
22:53
Speaker 1: the woods. There's a kid. That's what I would do
22:55
Speaker 1: with my time. It was more than once. Um, so
22:57
Speaker 1: Red Dawn somewhat on the Soviets took care of the
23:03
Speaker 1: civilians to a certain extent. They legally interned others, they
23:06
Speaker 1: illegally attack some with dogs. But um, let's say you
23:10
Speaker 1: were Darryll's dad, the mayor, and you're riding around with
23:14
Speaker 1: the the Cuban commander. Right, Um, what what rights do
23:20
Speaker 1: you have? Is just a general civilian who's not been
23:23
Speaker 1: deemed a threat? Right, Let's say, could Darryll's dad talk
23:26
Speaker 1: to Darryl's mom? Is open communication legal? Well? Yeah, it's
23:31
Speaker 1: it's a basic right that you're supposed to have. It
23:33
Speaker 1: can be curtailed if they think that there is uh,
23:37
Speaker 1: could be a detrimental effect on the correspondence. But even
23:40
Speaker 1: then they allow They law you to tweet basically, yeah,
23:45
Speaker 1: you're not really tweet, but they allow you like twenty
23:47
Speaker 1: five words. Right, there's special forms that every occupying force
23:51
Speaker 1: will have or should have that um, people can fill
23:55
Speaker 1: out to communicate with one another. Uh if if free
23:59
Speaker 1: speech is curtailed, yeah, um, and twenty five of those
24:01
Speaker 1: words have to be freely chosen by the person. You
24:05
Speaker 1: cannot be removed to another country unless it's for your
24:08
Speaker 1: own safety as a civilian, and you can't bring in
24:11
Speaker 1: your people as the occupying force. You can't bring in
24:14
Speaker 1: your civilians to settle that's right now, You're not allowed
24:17
Speaker 1: to do that and not allowed to do that. Um.
24:19
Speaker 1: They can force you to work, but they do have
24:22
Speaker 1: to pay you, and it can't be work, um like
24:25
Speaker 1: for your military, like against your own country. Right, you
24:28
Speaker 1: can't make You can't be made to make bombs that
24:31
Speaker 1: are gonna be used against your peeps, exactly. And if
24:33
Speaker 1: you are working and you're not making bombs, you can't
24:37
Speaker 1: be made to physically punish your own countrymen, if you're
24:40
Speaker 1: a middle manager forced laborer, and you can force kids
24:44
Speaker 1: to to work too. Really, and Chuck, it's um illegal
24:49
Speaker 1: to tattoo civilians for the purposes of identification. Yet another
24:52
Speaker 1: one that came out of World War Two. Yeah, boy, Hitler.
24:56
Speaker 1: They just went gaga after that, like with genocide. It
25:00
Speaker 1: that had never probably well, no, there was genocide before that,
25:03
Speaker 1: but after Hitler they said, no, we can't do this
25:05
Speaker 1: genocide thing. So Josh, let's talk about cultural property because
25:09
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the lesser known aspects of
25:11
Speaker 1: these conventions. I didn't know about it until I read
25:15
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's absolutely protected like your museums, your works
25:20
Speaker 1: of art and science. Like, um, remember when Saddam's statue
25:24
Speaker 1: was toppled, the American forces couldn't do that. The Iraqi
25:28
Speaker 1: people did that. But if the Americans had toppled his
25:31
Speaker 1: statue and like looted his palace, right because like you said, um,
25:36
Speaker 1: But the Hague and Geneva conventions specifically outlawed genocide, which
25:40
Speaker 1: is the systematic extermination of a group of people. In
25:45
Speaker 1: much the same way, the Hague convinces are like, you
25:47
Speaker 1: can't do that to their culture either, their cultural legacy
25:50
Speaker 1: and not just statues. Books are included, scientific achievements, works
25:55
Speaker 1: of art, archaeological areas, and then the buildings that house
25:59
Speaker 1: these things. Remember we said, like, you can't go hide
26:02
Speaker 1: out in a museum or library because these are culturally
26:05
Speaker 1: protected too. Yeah, but it's on the it's on the
26:09
Speaker 1: state to um provide identification there that these special symbols,
26:14
Speaker 1: and it's up to the country to to identify these
26:16
Speaker 1: places as such so they don't get bombed. So what
26:20
Speaker 1: happens if you break these rules? Let's say you're just like,
26:24
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to follow these rules. I
26:27
Speaker 1: want to I want to shoot this guy's face in
26:29
Speaker 1: even though he's wounded already. Yeah, I don't like the
26:31
Speaker 1: way he looked, or he's dating my girlfriend. Are those
26:36
Speaker 1: awful things you've seen in the in the Vietnam War
26:38
Speaker 1: movies when one like, uh yeah, when they just go
26:43
Speaker 1: nuts and just start doing bad, bad things. So neither
26:47
Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention nor the Head Convention specify what kind
26:51
Speaker 1: of punishment should be doled out, how offending parties should
26:56
Speaker 1: be charged. UM. They basically say, hey, everybody who's like
27:02
Speaker 1: on the side of the law, take these people to the
27:04
Speaker 1: the international court and then doll out whatever punishment you
27:07
Speaker 1: think is necessary. So for example, after Nuremberg, UM, before
27:12
Speaker 1: actually the Geneva Conventions we ratified UM. The the the
27:18
Speaker 1: I guess, France, Great Britain, in the US and Russia
27:22
Speaker 1: all formed this international tribunal where they try these Nazi
27:25
Speaker 1: war criminals and hanged. I think they executed eleven of them.
27:30
Speaker 1: So in much the same way we formed tribunals for
27:34
Speaker 1: UM Yugoslavia, the Balkan Moore, UM for Rwanda. But it's
27:39
Speaker 1: up to the country that has been um uh offended,
27:44
Speaker 1: it's not offended. It's up to the country that has
27:47
Speaker 1: been impacted to to do the legwork to make this happen. Like,
27:50
Speaker 1: there's not some big general body it's gonna say, yeah,
27:53
Speaker 1: we heard this happen, so we're gonna make sure they
27:55
Speaker 1: get prosecuted. No, but there is a standing body in
27:58
Speaker 1: the Hague called the International Criminal Court, and these are
28:02
Speaker 1: this This body hears these um war crimes trials. This
28:07
Speaker 1: is where you go to have a war crimes trial,
28:09
Speaker 1: right um. And there's a lot of debate over the
28:13
Speaker 1: legitimacy of this body. Some people want this body to
28:16
Speaker 1: take up more issues than that has Now. Are they
28:20
Speaker 1: already up and running? Actually I don't think so, but
28:23
Speaker 1: there's a big movement to get it going. Yes, there
28:25
Speaker 1: is one that's standing right, the World Court. Basically, do
28:31
Speaker 1: you know the other cool things? I got one more?
28:33
Speaker 1: You got anything else? Um? I have a little more,
28:36
Speaker 1: but go ahead, okay. Uh. One thing I found interesting, Joshures,
28:40
Speaker 1: is that the these rules don't just apply to the armies,
28:45
Speaker 1: but militia and volunteer corps. And we'll go back to
28:49
Speaker 1: red down here. Just for the sake of continuity. If
28:52
Speaker 1: you have a person in command read don who is that?
28:58
Speaker 1: Jed Swazy? God rest his soul. Um, if you have
29:03
Speaker 1: a representative symbol that can be recognized from a distance,
29:06
Speaker 1: if you spray paint wolverine, since you're representatives. So what
29:09
Speaker 1: they were doing, they were basically kind of putting themselves
29:11
Speaker 1: in the corner. They didn't realize it. Um, if they
29:14
Speaker 1: carry weaponry in the open, Yeah, they definitely did that.
29:17
Speaker 1: Powers Booth showed him how to do that with effectiveness.
29:21
Speaker 1: He was the pilot, right, Yeah, he was the guy
29:23
Speaker 1: that crashed and kind of headed things up for a
29:26
Speaker 1: little while, and then they got to follow the laws
29:29
Speaker 1: and customs of war. So if you meet those criteria
29:32
Speaker 1: as a militia. So if we just formed our own
29:34
Speaker 1: little pack of how staff forks ruffians, if we were
29:37
Speaker 1: attacked and we and you are our leader, and we
29:39
Speaker 1: carried open weaponry, and we had our symbol, which would
29:42
Speaker 1: be wolverines, clearly then we would be subject to the
29:46
Speaker 1: same rules as just like we were in the army. Well,
29:49
Speaker 1: that fourth one in particular is a little ticklish because
29:52
Speaker 1: it basically says, if you follow the rules of war,
29:55
Speaker 1: the rules of war apply to you. Yeah, so what
29:59
Speaker 1: happens if if you don't And we asked this guy, um,
30:02
Speaker 1: who's a professor of international Law's name is Michael Matheson.
30:04
Speaker 1: We talked to him actually about from yeah, George Washington University,
30:08
Speaker 1: and he said we we asked him, like, what how
30:12
Speaker 1: are these followed? Like how are these enforced? Like why
30:15
Speaker 1: would anybody follow these if you didn't really have to?
30:18
Speaker 1: And he basically said, the idea that if you don't
30:22
Speaker 1: follow him, the other person doesn't doesn't have to, and
30:26
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you can be tortured UM or
30:29
Speaker 1: you know, you can be attacked by dogs or humiliated, degraded, whatever, UM.
30:35
Speaker 1: The slippery slope that forms if you don't follow the
30:39
Speaker 1: rules of war UM keep both sides in line actually,
30:42
Speaker 1: and that they're these rules are indoctrinated into the military
30:46
Speaker 1: rules UM on each side already. So basically, each side
30:51
Speaker 1: regulates itself in the hopes that the other side will too.
30:55
Speaker 1: You know what they call the golden rule. That's right,
30:59
Speaker 1: I'm gonna end up at that all right. If you
31:01
Speaker 1: want to learn more about the rules of war and
31:03
Speaker 1: see what the cultural property emblem looks like, we know
31:06
Speaker 1: where you can find it type Rules of War and
31:08
Speaker 1: the search part how stuff works dot com. That means
31:11
Speaker 1: now it's time for the listener mail. Josh, I'm gonna
31:15
Speaker 1: call this handpicked by you. Yeah, you picked this one out.
31:19
Speaker 1: It's a good one in the Big day and it
31:21
Speaker 1: was a really good email. Actually it was on my
31:23
Speaker 1: list too, So this is from Clovis, and Clovis had
31:25
Speaker 1: some thoughts on the addiction podcasts that were very relevant
31:29
Speaker 1: and I think made some great points. Guys in your
31:32
Speaker 1: podcast on addiction, I thought you treated the issue fairly
31:34
Speaker 1: with a couple of exceptions. First of all, Josh, you
31:37
Speaker 1: said that a A was radically successful or something to
31:40
Speaker 1: that effect. The truth is, no one really knows how
31:43
Speaker 1: successful it is. It might be successful at helping someone
31:46
Speaker 1: obtain sobriety for some amount of time, but it might
31:49
Speaker 1: not be any stronger than if a person just cycles
31:51
Speaker 1: out of drinking on their own. Also, a a's goal
31:54
Speaker 1: of lifelong abstinence is a set up for failure to
31:56
Speaker 1: some studies showing that only about five percent of people
31:59
Speaker 1: remain completely abstinent for the rest of their lives. UH
32:04
Speaker 1: Clubus goes on to say, it also seems like you
32:06
Speaker 1: bought into the idea that UH that was cultivated by
32:09
Speaker 1: our government that rates use rates are the best measure
32:13
Speaker 1: of the harms that drugs and prohibition due to our society.
32:17
Speaker 1: So if use rates are up, that's bad. If down,
32:20
Speaker 1: if they're down, that's good. Not quite true. Use rates
32:23
Speaker 1: are actually a terrible way to measure the success or
32:25
Speaker 1: failure of a drug treatment and drug policy. Meaningful data
32:29
Speaker 1: would measure the increases and decreases and drug related death, disease, crime,
32:34
Speaker 1: and suffering. All of these things can be significantly measured
32:37
Speaker 1: and in some cases even more accurately accurately than self
32:41
Speaker 1: reported use rates. Use rates are especially useful to politicians
32:45
Speaker 1: who use this quote unquote evidence to say use rates
32:48
Speaker 1: are down, we're winning. You should increase our budget to
32:50
Speaker 1: help keep this fight. Or use rates are down, we're losing,
32:53
Speaker 1: so you need to increase our budget to put us
32:56
Speaker 1: to stamp this thing out. So either way, they're trying
32:59
Speaker 1: to get more money. Uh. And I guess the point
33:02
Speaker 1: about addiction. That's the point about addiction and treatment. Our
33:05
Speaker 1: society has defined both way too rigidly. Addiction is really
33:09
Speaker 1: drug use plus problems. What do we do for those
33:13
Speaker 1: people who can't use drugs without causing problems the addicts?
33:16
Speaker 1: We should give them treatment? And treatment can be anything
33:18
Speaker 1: that works for them. Can be a a can be
33:21
Speaker 1: heroin assisted treatment, it can be knitting. But if it
33:25
Speaker 1: lessens the death, disease, crime, and suffering associated with the
33:28
Speaker 1: drug use, then it should be considered a successful treatment.
33:31
Speaker 1: Putting them in prison cells is about the worst thing
33:33
Speaker 1: we can do for them. With all respect, Clovis, Thanks
33:37
Speaker 1: for that, Clovis, for one of the better emails we've
33:40
Speaker 1: ever received. I would say, yeah, it was a good one. Uh.
33:42
Speaker 1: If you have something you'd like to point out to
33:46
Speaker 1: Chuck and I'm that we've maybe erroneously bought into something
33:49
Speaker 1: and you want to tell us how it is, we
33:51
Speaker 1: always love that, Wrap it up and send it to
33:54
Speaker 1: stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Yeah. For
34:02
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
34:04
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast,
34:07
Speaker 1: click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner
34:10
Speaker 1: of our homepage. The How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived.
34:14
Speaker 1: Download it today on iTunes. Brought to you by the
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