Latest / Radically Genuine / 156. How SSRIs and Birth Control Shaped One Teen's Gender Identity w/ Taylor Murphy

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156. How SSRIs and Birth Control Shaped One Teen's Gender Identity w/ Taylor Murphy · Radically Genuine

• Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (00:01.792) Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFiilin. The widespread prescription of SSRIs for adolescents experiencing mood and anxiety problems, as well as hormonal birth control, seems to be unleashing consequences far beyond their intended effects. Despite any reliable evidence that SSRIs provide any meaningful effect and the clear safety and health concerns around these powerful drugs, they continue to be dispensed at alarming rates and for our most vulnerable populations. Most of them, by data, suggest adolescent girls going through puberty or post puberty are the most vulnerable of populations. We already know of their link to post SSRI sexual dysfunction, a devastating condition that can permanently alter sexual functioning even after discontinuation. But could the impact of SSRIs be even more profound? potentially reshaping the core of adolescent identity and sexual development. The surge in these prescriptions for adolescents coincides with an unprecedented rise in gender dysphoria cases, yet the potential link remains largely unexplored. Given our understanding of serotonin's crucial role in sexual development and expression, this correlation demands rigorous scientific investigation. There is a growing global movement of patients reporting iatrogenic harm from SSRIs and it's gaining momentum with many adults now critically examining the impact of these drugs prescribed in their youth. These individuals prescribed powerful psychoactive medications at a time when they were legally unable to provide consent. They're raising alarm bells about the long-term consequences of early SSRI use as well Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (02:06.344) as hormonal birth control. And when it comes to hormonal birth control, it's important for listeners to know that we are prescribing this to treat a variety of health conditions. It can range from acne, polycystic ovary syndrome, varian syndrome, which is PCOS, premenstrual dysphoric disorder. It's difficult to know right now how many teens are on this form of synthetic hormones. but it is provided without adequate informed consent and for a range of conditions as if they are benign. The synthetic hormones can amplify existing emotional struggles or trigger new ones, leading to feelings of anxiety, depression, or irritability. Teenage girls who use birth control pills are more likely to cry, sleep too much, and experience eating issues compared to their peers who do not use hormonal birth control. Teenagers on hormonal birth control had a 130 % higher incidence of symptoms of depression. That is significant folks. Teenagers who use contraceptive pills still had an increased incidence of depression even after stopping the pill, which was not observed in adults. This reflects a very critical time in development. Hormonal contraception use doubles the risks of suicide attempts and triples the risk of suicide. use of hormonal contraception has been positively associated with subsequent suicide attempts and suicide even later in life. Hormonal contraceptives taken by adolescents influence the development of the brain in a way that alters the recognition of risks and can increase impulsivity. And women using hormonal contraceptives exhibit numerous signs of chronic inflammation, including elevated C reactive protein levels and greater risk. of developing mood and autoimmune disorders. So let me get this straight. Teenage girls already experiencing the expected mood and behavioral changes associated with puberty are placed on synthetic hormones that disrupt the normal hormonal shifts associated with this key developmental period. And the documented mood changes are then inaccurately labeled as psychiatric conditions in the medical and mental health settings, leading to prescriptions for antidepressants, Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (04:32.128) that at least double the risk of suicide. So imagine this, like how we're treating young adolescent girls in Western medicine. Excuse my language, but we are fucking around with developing adolescents hormones, brain chemicals in a way that is experimental and problematic. What the fuck do we think is going to happen? Then we go and we treat them with more chemicals. with additional psychiatric drugs? This is a human rights issue. We're at a point now where many of these young girls who've matured into adulthood are now speaking out on how they were treated in the medical system and the mental health industrial complex, the dangers of affirmative care for gender dysphoria and how the medical system is way too willing to experiment on vulnerable minors during a very extremely sensitive developmental period. So we need to have the conversation. We have to understand the stories, the experiences of the young women who were placed on these drugs. And today I want to have such a conversation. Due to the many years, my guest today spent questioning who she was, thinking she was transgender and wanting to transition into a trans man. She now shares her cured experience of gender dysphoria and how it was related to the medication she was on since she was at the delicate age of 12 years old. As she tapered off Prozac, her gender dysphoria kind of faded away. Changes were experienced and she started to develop a new sense of self and the world. After stopping hormonal birth control shortly after, her life continued to get brighter and her femininity flourished. She now shares her concerns on the side effects of SSRIs, hormonal birth control and gender ideology in youth. I connected with our guest today, Taylor Murphy. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (06:34.208) by just being interested in her social media profile, her experience or shared experience and her willingness to speak out against this. what I hope is efforts to be able to protect younger, younger girls from going down the same path. Taylor Murphy, I want to welcome you to the radically genuine podcast. Taylor (06:52.354) Thank you so much for having me. Seeing your videos is really what inspired me to start sharing my whole story. It just made it make even more sense to have it validated. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (07:05.494) well, thank you. That's good to hear. Can I ask you what in particular inspired you? Taylor (07:10.958) It's just the fact that I feel like I can't be the only one that's gone through this. so it really needs to be talked about because it's just, they're being handed out like candy. as you can see, there's the effects that people don't even realize it has is on them if they don't come off of them. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (07:29.718) Yeah. So I think you're in your, your upper twenties right now, the 26 years old. So, you just entered the, kind of a new stage of maturation and development right now, like the thinking of, adolescence is it's a little bit more prolonged. The brain continues to develop upwards to around 25 years old. So right now as a 26 year old woman, it appears that you're kind of thinking about your life in, in a different way. Taylor (07:33.422) I'm 26. Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (07:59.188) What inspired you to take kind of these risks and put yourself out there on social media? Taylor (08:06.114) It was just so eye-opening, like what I went through. Like I spent so many years just feeling so lost and like just trying to find who I was and I thought I did. And that way of thinking is just totally different than how I think now and how I view myself. And I think it's scary that like, I would just wonder if I never came off of either medications, like where I would be now. And it's kind of a scary thought because it's, some things are irreversible and. I've just never been happier and it's just been such a journey to finally finding myself and loving myself. It's been a long journey, but it's just the fact I'm finally here and it's made sense and I can make the connection now of why I was so lost all those years. Just, I think people need to hear the reality of what medication does. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (09:00.332) Yeah, I think it's such a blessing that you're able to get to this point safely. I think that's like an important story to be told as well, but the most difficult part of this conversation is asking you to go back, you know, 14 years or so to kind of understand the mind and experience of a 12 year old girl. So I've learned that that's when you started kind of going down, you know, this, this path in the medical system where they were prescribing you SSRIs and then started hormonal contraceptives. Take us back to that period in your life and why your parents decided this particular direction for you. Taylor (09:41.262) Yeah, I mean based on what I can remember, it's all a blur. of I was so young and just so many years of, I didn't want to be on medication. I was put on a Prozac because I had anxiety and it was really hard for me to go to school and I was just a super anxious child and that was, I guess, the answer at the time. being so young, I didn't question any of it. I just kind of trusted the adults and didn't know much about it. Never educated myself on it until I got older. And then, yeah, was kind of forced on me. It was looked at like, this is gonna help you. it did. I'm not saying it helped my anxiety, but it wasn't worth it at all in the end when I look back on what I went through. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (10:31.114) Yeah, so that's an important point. We're going to want to take a little bit of a wider angle lens here because emotional blunting is a pretty prevalent experience from people who take that drug. So you can, you can experience a doling of an experience. so if somebody is having like elevated anxiety, taking that drug may have that effect of doling that anxiety, but the downstream consequences are quite significant. And from a psychological perspective when we treat young kids with anxiety disorders, by no means are we looking to quote unquote blunt their anxiety. In fact, we see exposure to that anxiety and being able to overcome it as being like necessary as part of that recovery process. Tolerating that experience, understanding what's creating that fear building skills has lifelong effects. So now you're going back to 12 years old and you're told that that experience of anxiety is like something's wrong with you for having it. Is that accurate? Like I wonder what effect that has on a young girl to be told or communicated that the anxiety they're feeling is like too much or it's wrong. Taylor (11:32.226) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Taylor (11:44.558) Yeah, I was kind of not purposefully, but I was kind of over the years, I just kind of accepted that I was always going to be on medication. And I was kind of made to feel like I wouldn't ever be able to function without it. And, you're anxious up the dose or it was always falling back on the medication instead of just learning how to deal with my anxiety, which I at 26 years old, I'm basically have to reteach myself all over again. What I should have learned when I was 12. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (12:15.892) Yeah, so anxiety disorders can run on a spectrum. you know, I'll be the first to tell people out there who are listening that anxiety can feel so overwhelming and people can become emotionally dysregulated that professional help is warranted, especially at such a such a young age. There's like really good treatment protocols that exist for child anxiety. One of my earliest exposures to training was at Temple University in this empirically supported program called Coping Cat, which was a a therapy that worked heavily on exposure and coping with anxiety and has tremendous empirical support. So I come from this perspective of earlier in my career, was working with a lot of kids that age with social-based anxiety, anxiety at school. And the thing that you realize from understanding the literature is how normal that is. Now kids cope with that in very different ways. Some people feel overwhelmed by it and want to avoid. Sometimes the family aspect kind of supports that avoidance and reinforces it and it becomes more problematic. But I want to get an extent to the severity of the anxiety disorder you were experiencing. Was there a lot of school refusal? Were you refusing to go to school, really isolated, very shy? How would you describe you back then? Taylor (13:34.99) I was a super, super shy kid, super quiet. I hated going to school. It was such an issue to get me to go to school every day. just the mix of that was, I guess, a lot to deal with. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (13:49.004) Yeah. Were you ever provided the opportunity to go into like a behavioral therapy, a cognitive behavioral therapy for that anxiety? Taylor (13:55.854) I think I did try some kind of therapy at one point. I don't remember, I was like really young, but I guess it didn't really help because then I ended up on medication. So I would say it probably wasn't very effective. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (14:10.068) Yeah, so if you don't even remember it, it's certainly not effective at all. And this is where I'm kind of also outspoken the type of therapy a person receives matters. So taking a 12 year old to speak with a stranger just to talk about their anxiety is going to have little or no value. Potentially it can be harmful. But someone who is an expert recognize this works with the family and develop skills does exposure might collaborate with the school. Taylor (14:18.968) Mm-hmm. Right. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (14:38.484) success rates are quite high, people receiving that therapy, it's certainly a minority, unfortunately. Therapy is kind of blanket word for talking to a therapist as if just talking is gonna do enough. Do remember who prescribed your Prozac initially? Taylor (14:57.834) Yes, I remember going and talking to him and again, I was kind of like Kind of confused on the whole thing of like why I was on medication I mean, I knew it was like because of anxiety, but I guess I didn't really know more than that. It's like you have anxiety and Here's what's gonna solve it and I I kind of just would talk to him and I don't really I didn't really understand all of it. We didn't really have really in-depth conversations about it. He would ask me a few questions and they were very short visits. So I don't really see how they would have been effective of finding out anything about me unless he got all of that from the parent side of it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (15:41.6) Yeah. And I want to get into that, but I want to read a tweet that you put out not too long ago. Dear parents who are thinking about putting their child on medication, never follow a psychiatrist blindly. Informed consent to the child and parent should be top priority when prescribing medication. Unfortunately, in most cases, it's not. A child needs to know about the medication they're being given, why they're taking it and all of the side effects. Parents involved need to know about the medication they are giving their child, why they are taking it, and all of the side effects. My psychiatrist didn't provide me proper informed consent to adult or child. When side effects became an issue for me, instead of looking into it and helping us figure things out, he lied, brushed things off, and assured my mom that what I was experiencing was impossible. that the medication can't do that. I would years later prove them very wrong. Know the risks, your own research. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Taylor (16:49.454) Yeah, so that conversation about my mom talking to the psychiatrist, I didn't know that back then. That was a very new conversation I just found out very recently. So I found that very interesting. I, but I just, don't remember when I was put on medication, anything about anyone sitting me down and telling me anything about the medication and so I just I feel like I wasn't educated on what I was actually taking and I'm not sure how much my mom knew either and when you know when I started taking it I'm not sure how long after it was when I started to kind of have these feelings of confusion my mom kind of brought it up to him and was like you know can medication do this and she was concerned about it and he just apparently brushed the whole thing off and just assured her that it just wasn't possible. And I just, look back at that and I find it very interesting on the fact like he's prescribing this medication that has all these side effects and just not even considering the possibility. And the fact of like everyone that takes an SSRI should know. these side effects and the fact like sexual dysfunction and all of that is just not talked about at all and all the emotional aspects of it either. It's just very brushed off and patients are just left with making it feel like they're crazy. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (18:25.878) Yeah, how do your parents think about it now, you know, that's many years later? Taylor (18:29.875) I don't really talk about it a lot. I mean, it's kind of a touchy subject. My mom and I don't really exactly see eye to eye on it, but I also don't think she wants to admit that, you know, what me being on medication, you know, harmed me. think that's kind of hard for her to see because she, you know, says she did what she felt like was right at the time. so, I mean, I don't really talk about it. kind of just, this is my journey and... no one knows that I'm actually doing this. I kind of just keep it to myself. so it's, it's been interesting kind of to see things, but, yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:17.708) Yeah, it's fascinating. And I see somewhat as your mom is a victim of this as well, because she is trusting a medical professional, you know, her 12 year old daughter's struggling. It's very difficult to get her to school. You're talking now that's, you know, 14 years ago. So you're at a certain time where these drugs are even more normalized. I think there's somewhat of an awakening right now with post COVID, the social media. global movement of prescribed harm. The evidence is more clear than ever before, but go back 14 years ago and it's a little bit of a different scenario and she just sees her girl suffering. So I do see her mom to an extent to be a victim of this and she never received informed consent, neither did you. And I talked to my staff about this. Let's imagine if informed consent was legitimately provided. Who is going to take the risk? So let's say I say something like, know, consent includes, you know, risks, benefits, alternatives, answers all questions. If I tell anybody that the risks include, well, this certainly could worsen anxiety and depression. With her age, probably somewhere between a double to six time risk of becoming suicidal. We have no idea really how it's going to affect her sexual and identity. development, there is a bi-directional relationship between serotonin and hormones. This is a very sensitive period. We know that there's sexual dysfunction associated with it could be permanent. really just starting on fluoxetine itself could create permanent sexual dysfunction for the rest of her life. could make her, it could make her feel like manic or even psychosis, have psychosis. Those are relatively rare, but there's a stimulation effect to the drug. She can become more irritable. agitated. There's long-term health concerns. We haven't really studied it, but there's legitimate concerns for like metabolic illness and we have no idea how it's going to affect the developing brain. And the positives are this, it may like blunt or mute her emotional experience, which could be viewed as relieving in the short term. But then again, I think we're also handicapping your child from experiencing the full range of emotions and coping with it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (21:41.056) So, and there's more effective treatments that exist, including like a cognitive behavioral therapy for anxiety disorders and a number of other things that you can do, including nothing. There's informed consent. Who's gonna consent to taking a drug under those conditions? Taylor (21:57.996) No one would be on them, so it's. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (21:59.68) Yeah. Which is why you're not going to get the truth. The doctor who prescribed the drug has no other tools in his tool belt. His entire profession is based on writing that prescription and really buying what was sold to him. Hook, line and sinker. He's probably prescribed that drug thousands and thousands of times. boy, could you imagine the cognitive dissonance that's created for him to have to accept all the legitimate concerns with such a drug? Taylor (22:02.094) Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (22:29.13) I mean, that's the problem that we run into. Taylor (22:33.186) Yeah, I mean, I look back and I wonder though, even because I was so young, like, would I have thought anything of that or I guess that's why it's the parents also have to be very educated. It's not just the child that's taking it. These parents, the kid that they're putting it on, like I was so young, I don't know if I would have, if I was told any of that, if I would have cared or even thought about the long-term risks of it. So it's very important that both parent and child know all about it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (23:03.52) Yeah, absolutely. for our listeners, consent in mental health in many states is as young as 14 years old. So 14 year olds can consent to seeing a doctor and receiving a prescription like an SSRI. Developmentally, they're not in a place to fully consent to understand consequences, but somehow the laws allow for such a thing. And that's why it's so important for parents to be really meaningfully involved and do their own research and ask such questions. I wanna now kind of shift a little bit because one of the things that you're outspoken about is the gender dysphoria that you began to experience throughout adolescence. And this is an opportunity for a firsthand account for you to understand what you were experiencing, as well as how the medical and mental health system kind of responded to what you were going through. in efforts to kind of just be open about it and share your experience with other people because we know we have this dramatic rise in what's called rapid onset gender dysphoria for females, something that is unprecedented. We haven't been able to see this at any point throughout history, but what is changing is how we are treating adolescent females as well as how we're culturally conditioning the idea of gender and sexual preference and number of other things or sex preference as being less binary and much more fluid. And then with the experience of social media, YouTube, influencers and so forth, you can see how the culture is ripe for somebody who is in this developmental stage of identity and may be struggling in a normal way, but now views it through the lens of what's culturally conditioned. So if you can kind of tell us what you have. kind of gone through and I'd be really absolutely fascinated to understand really how you coped with it. Taylor (25:05.548) Yeah, I mean, just the feeling of never having like that sense of self, like all growing up, like I just felt so lost through kind of, I mean, it hit me in middle school. So when I started the SSRI and hormone of birth control and then high school, was just, it was always just lost, lost, trying to find who I was. And by the time I got to college, I think, I don't know if that's because the whole transgender thing became way more talked about. online and everywhere else. It wasn't as big years ago. When I first started having feelings of gender dysphoria, I didn't really know what it even was. It wasn't talked about. By my 20s, that's when it finally felt like it put a label on what I was experiencing. It just made sense at the time, which is crazy to me now. It's just, it's dangerous. think the whole idea of like the gender ideology and all the trans stuff is just dangerous because Taylor (26:13.196) if I had done any of those things, it's not reversible and just the damage that it can cause. And it just put these ideas in my head and it's a lot. I felt like I had finally found myself and it just finally was like, this makes sense. Even though in the back of my mind, I still had questions of, this who I really am? And always questioning if I would regret it or if it would actually make me happier. And it was always this kind of you know, back and forth game. Like I was at like, you know, at one point, like I changed my whole look. I, I got tired of being female and I hated everything about my body. And I cut my hair and started presenting more masculine. And later on down the road, I, like, I even wore a chest binder at one point and I wanted hormones. I wanted surgery. Like I wanted to just be seen as a man. And, thank God I held back on that. It's just, it's so crazy to look back on. Like I don't even, when I look back on it, I don't even like recognize myself and my whole thought process of anything. I'm just. It's a really, I'm a completely different person and that's what blows my mind about this whole medication thing is like the impact it had on me and my thinking. And it just, it affected everything about me. So it's, it's, it's very sad, but scary to look back on. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (27:40.362) Yeah, Taylor, let's try to get into an understanding of what gender dysphoria actually means. mean, we apply that label because we understand it now or we use it, but I don't think it really speaks to the experience of somebody who might be going through it. So what did that mean to you at that time? What were you actually feeling? Taylor (27:57.39) I wanted to be, like I just hated being viewed as female. Like I despised my body. Like I hated looking at my female body. I didn't want to be seen as female. Just everything about being female, I was kind of disgusted at. And it was just such that dis- what? Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (28:17.622) Do have any idea why that might've been the case? Like if we entered into your mind, what did you hate about being a female? Was that any... Taylor (28:28.542) I just felt like it wasn't me. I feel like I didn't relate to it at all. It was just like... You like most people say, like, you feel like you're in the wrong body. Like it literally, I felt like I was in the wrong body. Like that's the best way to explain it in simple terms, but I, yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (28:47.178) And so you were placed on SSRIs at age 12. When did you start going through puberty? Taylor (28:53.358) around that it was all around the same time so I mean probably slightly a little bit before that maybe. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (29:01.701) And I think it's important to note that Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (29:07.678) young girls who are going through that rapid body transformation that occurs at puberty, there's actually something called the fat spurt where there's 20 % increase in body fat that occurs during that early puberty stages. And it's a vulnerability stage for eating disorders as well as a number of other problems. Young girls expressing body hate or extreme discomfort in that developing body. is quite normal and always has been. But now we're at a time where that anxiety, those struggles are medicalized in a way that they haven't been in previous generations. Meaning that you're more likely to be placed on an SSRI for the anxiety or that experience of going through that. And then there is the use of hormonal birth control. When were you placed on hormonal birth control and for what reason? Taylor (30:04.494) Probably around the same time. I don't really know how much later after the SSRI, so probably 12-13 years old. Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (30:13.248) Yeah. And what we see is like what you're describing is there is a disconnect with, you know, kind of your mind and your developing body, which is interesting because you are being changed by synthetic chemicals. You know, hormonally, you're being targeted with a synthetic hormone based in, you know, built in a factory, a compound, a chemical compound, as well as an SSRI. Taylor (30:26.648) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (30:38.688) Both of those things work in concert with each other, your neurochemicals and your hormones in developing a sense of identity. So we don't really know what the consequences are to so many women through that type of experimentation. Taylor (30:55.882) It's dangerous because it started with, like you said, puberty is not easy for anyone. And I did hate my body because of that, but I didn't necessarily at the time be like, I didn't necessarily feel like I was in the wrong body. That kind of started over time. And I think that's why the ideas of hearing different things about gender and how it's talked about today kind of influences. a child very easily of, if they have these feelings of kind of the route that can go, is, yeah, dangerous. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (31:35.584) Was there any discussion around this in your school? Was your school addressing it? And what was your social media exposure like at that time? Taylor (31:44.942) Nothing was really talked about back then, so I think that's why I didn't have the whole label on it till later down the road because it really wasn't hugely talked about like it is now. So over the years, I still had that feeling of just feeling lost and trying to find the answer. But I don't really remember specifically what it was, like that. aha moment. It was over time that I kind of found it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (32:18.604) So you did actually make the decision to try to alter your appearance and present more masculine. Do you remember what age that occurred or ages? Taylor (32:25.742) Mm-hmm, yeah. Taylor (32:29.678) It was kind of all over the place. I had kind of went back and forth between my looks when I was in high school. was, kind of, way I dressed was all over the place in middle school. I still had long hair. And then by the time I got to high school, I was just kind of sick of it all. So I kind of cut my hair, then I would grow it out. I was kind of... all over the place with it and then by the time I got to college I cut my hair again and that's when it kind of was like this is who I am and I stuck with that until basically coming off of medication. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (33:10.796) Did that relieve any of that dysphoria that you were experiencing? mean, did that help you by presenting more masculine? Taylor (33:20.128) Not really because I felt like it just wasn't enough. I had this awkward, like I still felt like people still see me as female. I just, you know, I have a very feminine baby face. So I'm like, would, I'm not gonna be seen the way I wanna be seen. And that kind of just, you know, being shy and all of that, it just, made me feel very kind of awkward all the time. Like it felt like I could, you know. feel like myself because of the way I dressed and all of that, but it didn't help with any relief because it just made me feel like it wasn't enough. Yeah. No. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (33:59.03) So didn't feel like you passed and I would assume then you were really considering cross-sex hormones or even more invasive procedures? Taylor (34:08.93) Yeah, I think if I had more support, I probably would have thought about it even more, but it was just, I wanted it, but I wasn't necessarily gonna act on it, because I didn't feel like I had the support, and it just wasn't something I was ready to do on my own. So, thankful. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (34:26.582) Yeah, what was your family's reaction to all this, your struggles? Taylor (34:30.122) It just was kind of, would, I didn't talk about it a lot. I was super embarrassed about it. So I kind of just, I would talk to my mom about it. And that was really the only person I would talk to about it besides, you know, a few of my friends knew obviously that I was with in college, but the few kind of conversations I would have with my mom about it, was her just asking a lot of questions and trying to understand where I was coming from and what I was feeling. And I, feel like those conversations were helpful. I mean, at the time I didn't want to hear any of it. I was kind of frustrated that she wasn't just, I felt like she wasn't being like accepting of it at the time, but I look back now and I'm thankful for all of the questioning and her kind of not really pushing for that direction and just letting me kind of go off and do it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (35:25.44) So she didn't just automatically affirm that experience for you. Taylor (35:30.242) Yeah, no, that's, glad I didn't have that. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (35:33.781) Were you in any therapy, seeing a therapist during those years? Taylor (35:37.646) No, I'd be interesting if I had what kind of would have came out of that, but I didn't talk to anybody about it. I hated talking about it and I would just kind of freeze up. it's not something I was able to easily talk about and express because I was just so embarrassed and confused about it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (35:58.272) Yeah. So I want to read another tweet to get you to expand on it. This tweet says the transgender ideology pushing the insane idea of mental illness being normal and accepted is a direct threat to rational, to a rational and free world. When you can no longer say what is true and what is not, such as what is a man and what is a woman, you can no longer say that anything is true. You can no longer say what is right and what is wrong, what is good, what is evil. If objective reality does not exist, then reason cannot exist. Taylor (36:38.434) That, yeah, so. I think this is just so crazy to look back on because at one point here I am feeling this certain way, expressing myself this certain way and then my view on that is just so completely different now. Like I just don't, I guess I just don't agree with the whole idea of transition anymore. I, every, yeah, it's very complicated I guess just to explain all of this but none of it. makes sense to me and I just feel like none of it solves anything. Taylor (37:20.864) It's just a very complicated thing that doesn't have to be complicated. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (37:27.178) Yeah, let's see if we can make it less complicated. Obviously what you went through is experienced by other people. There are people who are suffering and saying things such as, feel like I was born into the wrong body and I believe I would be happier if I got to express my masculinity, born as a biological female and vice versa. How do you make something that is more simple, more objective, but also allows somebody to deal with what they're going through? Taylor (38:09.058) think instead of pushing this idea of telling people there's something wrong with them or pushing for hormones and surgery and this whole new idea of puberty blockers, think to just let children and people just kind of ride it out and express themselves in a non-medical way. It's like you don't have to be a super feminine girl or you know, whatever, it's just, there doesn't need to be, I think, intervention or all of these harmful ideas of, you know, just people feeling like there's something wrong with them and they have to change it. It's just... Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (38:58.124) I tend to agree with that standpoint. First of all, we see that gender dysphoria is episodic in most people, right? So you go through that, but it is a complex experience that can be related to multiple factors. And we'll get into this because in your case, it could be very much related to what you were putting into your body and how it was changing your body and your mind. But for others, it could be a social contagion. It could be a response to traumatic events or other emotional and behavioral problems could be related to some somebody who might be on the autism spectrum and is just unable to understand nuance and is influenced by social media and other societal factors could be seeking belonging into a group. as part of that, again, normal identity development phase. And if we didn't medicalize it and instead we were able to normalize it and improve people's ability to cope with it without this affirming this idea that they were born into the wrong body, it certainly seems like it's reasonable that we would have much, much better outcomes. And we wouldn't be in a situation where there's all these detransitioners who actually did go through those invasive medical procedures, were unable to consent and now are unable to bear children. or have other long-term health effects because it's not like puberty is just this inconvenient thing that happens to you. It is absolutely necessary for your wellbeing and health short-term and long-term. Taylor (40:37.538) Yeah, I think the children that are dealing with all of this, whether it's, you know, they're hearing it and feeling these things because of things socially, but I think going through puberty and dealing with these emotions and all of that is what's going to help solve it, not stopping puberty. That's going to make things so much worse. And it's, Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (41:03.926) think what's fascinating about your story, and I think these are going to be some of the questions that people would ask. How can you be sure that it is related to the SSRIs or the hormonal birth control or the combination of both of those things? There's the scientific principle, post hoc ergo propto hoc fallacy after this, therefore because of this. However, based on what we know biologically and what these drugs do, there's certainly a high likelihood that those drugs do and will have an effect. So I'm gonna read a tweet here and then let's go into your decision to get off both. And what I'm most interested to know is now how your experience has changed you because that's pretty powerful. So here's the tweet when... Coming off medication and experiencing withdrawal, I was told I couldn't get my shit together. I might have to go back on medication like I could only ever function with it. I mean, that's important because a lot of people hear that. I felt like I was trapped, raging trying to get out of my mind of overflowing emotions, trying to reach the new best version of myself. It's not you that's causing the struggle. It's withdrawal. It's from the powerful mind-altering medication. It's frustrating not having support from everyone who understands and the best feeling in the end is proving them wrong. So let's just get to that part of your story, your decision to make those changes and then its impact on you. Taylor (42:42.136) So I wanted to get off medication just because I was kind of tired of being on it. I was at that stage in my life where I'm like, I'm an adult. kind of just, I want to see life without it, but my biggest concern that I wanted to fix was my libido. Cause my entire life, I just, that is the one thing I always struggled with and just never had. And that was... just a huge issue for me that I just wanted it fixed and doing a lot of research now when I was older, was like, the fluoxetine does that hormonal birth control. So I was on these two things that affect you emotionally and sexually. And so I was just like, I want to get rid of them. I want to see life without them. And so I tapered off of the fluoxetine. That was a long, hard process. was, I think between tapering and finally kind of being over withdrawal and feeling like I'm happy and can function. That was a little less than a year. then now I've been both medication free for about a year. So it's been a long, almost like a two year process of getting off of everything and finally. feeling okay and that way at the end of the tunnel, it's so worth it. mean, it was hard. I was so irritable and I was so sad and kind of just, I felt very hopeless. Like I just felt like I was just, I was just fighting to finally not feel like that. And I was so anxious because here I am. I was on that medication like more than half my life. So I was super, super anxious and It was a really hard time, I just say to anybody that's going through it, just, you gotta just keep kicking it and it's not easy. Nothing about it is easy, but it's worth it if you set your mind to it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (44:52.076) Yeah, when think about the insanity of this, so you mentioned that being on that drug half your life, you're being prescribed that drug during key developmental periods when you're a child, a drug that has never been evaluated long-term on any human being, let alone a developing adolescent. We know the harmful consequences of doing so. The drugs evaluated in clinical trials, generally speaking, six to eight weeks in the TAD study, which is a treatment of adolescent depression study, we see very poor response rates and high rates of suicide in comparison to the groups that were not provided the drug. We have really low poor efficacy, which means the drug doesn't really prove to be that effective at all. So a drug that has only been evaluated short term somehow is justified for being prescribed to you for like 14... Actually 12 years that's like think about what we're doing folks in our medical systems in the United States a drug never evaluated is just haphazardly provided to a teenager Throughout those years for nothing more than anxiety Like I understand anxiety can be uncomfortable, but it's certainly a rite of passage. It's kind of part of this process and willing to risk the long-term health and wellbeing of a child. We have to ask ourselves, how did we get here? So now you speak about the challenges in withdrawal. I think a lot of people just go back on the drug because they just don't want to go through that withdrawal or they're brainwashed or being told that they have this mental illness. How were you able to kind of stick it through? Taylor (46:45.118) I think because I was just all of my years I was kind of made to feel like I wouldn't be able to function without it. I just had that idea in my head where I wanted to prove to everybody and like my mom that I am not defined by this medication. I want to have a life without it and I'm going to function without it and I'm going to do this and I just I set my mind to it and it was it's just a lot but the I just Yeah, you gotta set your mind to it and prove them wrong. Prove that you don't need the medication and that you find ways to cope with normal anxiety. It's not like I have something wrong with me. I'm very anxious and there's other ways that I can function and deal with it than to take a pill that's going to completely destroy my personality. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (47:38.764) There's a stubborn resilience there, you know, that provides you some grit to kind of get through it. When you finally do get, you know, past the withdrawal symptoms, tell me what, how your life changes. Taylor (47:41.038) Mm-hmm. Taylor (47:52.202) I just, feel like back then I never really noticed, noticed it until I look back. But I see now how my emotions are different. Like I've always been a very like sensitive emotional person, but I feel like now it's even, they're more heightened and I just, see the world very differently. And I think that's cause I'm not, don't have that like detachment to myself. I feel like I finally know who I am and that has just changed everything completely in the way I view things and the way I feel about life in the world. It's just completely different. And it's been really kind of a beautiful journey of kind of, like, I've been, you know, it has that like anger of like, you know, I feel like I had so many wasted years where I could have been feeling like this, but I think it's made me appreciate. where I am now even more and getting here and just kind of having this unfortunate journey of the things I went through, but it just makes me stronger and I've been able to appreciate my self-growth even more. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (49:06.444) So you describe yourself as someone who's kind of interpersonally emotionally sensitive and you can experience your emotions kind of at a heightened state. How is that viewed by you? Because go back 14 years ago, this young girl who is of that personality, right? And experiences those things. It's kind of judged negatively. It's something like that's quite overwhelming. And you're even told that there's something wrong with you for feeling it. Taylor (49:31.576) Yeah, mean, just learning how to, you know, regulate certain emotions and anxiety is, it's a lot now at this age, like in a good way, but it's just like, it's just shown me what a difference it is and just... I know I keep saying that, but it's amazing the difference of how it can change a person. I guess the best way to say it is I feel so much more alive. Maybe that's just because I'm so much happier with myself. I always kind of hated who I was in the dysphoria, just kind of really got in the way of my happiness and my confidence. And without that, am so much happier now. I have a much more confidence. it's just I think it's a lot of mixing of being off medication that does kind of blunt everything but also the the whole dysphoria piece because that also really got in the way of my emotions as well. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (50:36.822) And then you also got off hormonal birth control. Was that difficult? Taylor (50:41.356) Yeah, I mean, kind of, because I did, I got off of that kind of as I was tapering off of the fluoxetine. So that it was kind of hard to say what was what because I was kind of going through withdrawal from both of them at the same time. But I feel like once I came off of that, because the dysphoria had already kind of gone away. But after the birth control, I felt like that's really when my femininity just flourished and I had these just emotions and feelings and kind of like a feeling of sexuality that I never had before. And so that was very eye-opening and I think that was huge. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (51:27.414) So I didn't ask you this question, but I'm imagining that the drugs that you were on really impacted your libido. Did that affect... sexual attraction to others? Is that something that's now newly experienced for you that wasn't experienced previously? Taylor (51:45.518) No, I never had that. I always had attraction, I just never had the libido and the drive. I never really had an interest in sex or really even thought about it until later on in life. it was just something I... It wasn't something I thought about until later on. When you're with friends and they're talking, it wasn't even really on my radar. As time went on and I started dating, I realized, like, yeah, this is an issue. And kind of that's when I went about to kind of change things with getting off of medication. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (52:27.168) And it's, it seems like with the being able to experience emotions again, even joy heightened emotions, all of them and the return of a sex drive that you're one of the lucky ones who, despite being on the drug for 12 years is not experiencing permanent sexual dysfunction. PSSD for the listeners out there, it's not just sexual dysfunction. It's a muting of. positive experiences, joy, emotion. And until you lose that, I don't think you fully grasp how this leads to a life with color and a life that's worth living. When you become handicapped and that's taken away, it takes away everything that kind of makes life special and interesting. Our emotions, even the ones that are challenging, They work in balance. They work in concert with each other. So even when we feel anxiety, like facing that and overcoming it, it's almost like sometimes I talk like it's a video game. Like you're to another stage in life, like new things come to you and new challenges will be provided for you and you have to learn how to overcome them. And once you do, you know, ultimately what happens is that the anxiety begins to diminish and you learn, you learn that life is a series of challenges. And when you're at peace and you're calm and you experienced that dialectical opposite to fear, then you relish and you enjoy and you have gratitude for that experience of peace. And when you lose somebody, you have more, I think, appreciation and gratitude for love. And then there's justifiable anger. you know, things that are important, like just to, like in your case, maybe to kind of rise up and be outspoken about the harms that were done to you when you were younger is related to a justifiable anger that you need to feel. And that is necessary in creating change. You know, it's actually been able to create this conversation that's thousands of people are going to be able to listen to. And without a doubt, it's going to affect the decision-making of parents. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (54:46.774) who are being told that they should put their kid on an SSRI. And so like, that's the beauty of all this, that even through your struggle, even through your pain, it's been able to create something that could be meaningful. Taylor (54:59.758) And that's how I look at it as, know, I do have an anger towards feeling like I had so many wasted years and years of just not loving myself. And I take that now and I look at what I went through and if I can help just even just one kid not be put on medication or have someone, you know, resonate with my experience and be like, that's me. Like it's all worth it. And I just want to take it and put it into positive change and really just get the message out there. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:32.044) Here's probably the most important takeaway from today's discussion. knowing what you know now, Taylor, if you can get in that time machine and you can talk to your younger self and you can talk to your mother, what would you say about, as well as that psychiatrist, what would you tell them about what you think you really do need, which I think is gonna be really informative for all the parents and the younger people out there who are struggling and are just looking to kind of escape how they're feeling. Taylor (56:02.444) I really just, I would say I don't need an SSRI and I definitely should never have been put on hormonal birth control so young together. there's different ways to cope with anxiety, depression, anything and finding the way that works for you, whether it's, you know, like what helped me a lot with during withdrawal was completely changing my diet, exercising. I was super low on certain vitamins because of the medications. So taking those was huge. And just finding different ways to cope with what you're going through versus take a pill that's only going to mask it. You have to fix the root cause of the problem or masking it's not going to make anything better. So you have to figure out positive ways that work for you, how to fix the problem. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (56:58.38) Do you have hope that there's an awakening occurring that people are starting to see this differently? Taylor (57:03.934) I really hope so, because it's... I hope so. I think it's coming. I really do. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (57:12.608) Yeah, I do see it coming. Unfortunately, I look at some of the statistics and I see how it's even more normalized for primary care physicians. I just can't believe what I'm seeing with PCPs pushing this on younger people. But I mean, they've just become drones right now, just following these industry driven protocols. And I don't know how much time they have to be listening to podcasts and following the research and listening to people who are harmed. There's a wave and that wave is kind of rising and you're gonna have to be on the right side of history out there docs. We have listened to conversations like this. If anything parents, you're gonna have to protect your kids from what has become the medical authority in the United States. I am hopeful of the rise in awareness and very needed distrust of the medical establishment. and pushing for medical freedom and informed consent. And I think conversations like this help people to awaken and understand that there are potential permanent problems related to this band-aid approach, the temporary solutions that are being sought to try to quote unquote, mask a symptom. I don't think that's what life is. I don't think life is about masking symptoms. It's about addressing root causes, understanding them and overcoming them. And that's part of the journey that all of us are on. when we think about what does mental health recovery or what does mental health treatment look like, I think it is acknowledging and accepting these challenges as part of the human experience, but improving our ability to respond to it. In your case, you mentioned some really important things about how about nutrient and mineral depletion kind of occurs from both of those drugs that you are putting in your system and how recovery does include just overall metabolic health. nutritional health and lifestyle changes that can allow you to live life fully again. So Taylor, I really, really do appreciate us connecting and you being able to tell this story. I think it's going to be impactful. Is there anything else that you want to kind of conclude with? And if people want to follow you on social media, how do they follow you? Taylor (59:31.906) Yeah, I mean, if you want to continue kind of hearing my word and my story, I am on X at Tamer 26. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (59:42.688) Right. And I think that's a, it's a social media account that I'm following because I, you know, enjoy what she puts out there. And it's, you know, it's a firsthand account of somebody who's been kind of, you know, in that system, kind of brainwashed by the prevailing beliefs of her generation and then what it's like to get out of it and what life can be like. And I hope that inspires hope. Taylor Murphy, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation. Taylor (01:00:11.741) Thank you for having me so much. Thank you.