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Human-Centric Leadership: The Future of Construction · Activating Curiosity® | Leading Change in the Construction Industry

• 0:58
  Angelo: As a leader, you have to kind of change the mindset of construction.
• 1:01
  Angelo: Stop thinking like the hardest worker is not necessarily the best leader, A.
• 1:05
  Angelo: And B, everybody comes with their own sets of experiences: good, bad, indifferent, baggage has traumas.
• 1:12
  Angelo: There's tons of past traumas, especially site workers in the industry.
• 1:14
  Angelo: If you watch a worker get critically injured, or God forbid, site fatality, you're telling me that's not gonna mess you up and you're not gonna take that for the rest of your career when you're performing that task or going to work.
• 1:25
  Angelo: But historically it's been like, oh, you know, be a man, grow up pear, just suck it up.
• 1:29
  Angelo: We're tough, rough, tough construction workers.
• 1:30
  Angelo: You can't acknowledge your feelings.
• 2:16
  Ryan: Hey, Angelo, welcome to Activating Curiosity.
• 2:18
  Ryan: Hey, Ryan, thanks for having me on and excited about the conversation uh we're gonna have today.
• 2:23
  Ryan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:24
  Ryan: I think uh loved uh getting a chance to kind of listen to your book a little bit and looking forward to the conversation.
• 2:31
  Ryan: I think you have uh a lot of impact that you've been making out there in construction industry.
• 2:36
  Ryan: So it is going to be a great conversation.
• 2:38
  Ryan: We want to make sure that we're activating a lot of minds to think differently about a lot of the things that you're discussing.
• 2:43
  Ryan: So, with that, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself and uh then we'll dive into the show.
• 2:49
  Angelo: Sure, yeah.
• 2:49
  Angelo: So uh my name is Angelo.
• 2:51
  Angelo: I've been do working in construction now 20 years, um, mostly on the mechanical subtrade side, mechanical engineering background.
• 2:58
  Angelo: Uh kind of a funny story how I ended up in construction.
• 3:00
  Angelo: Maybe we'll get into that a little bit.
• 3:02
  Angelo: But as my passion grew for the industry and my responsibilities and my career trajectory kind of grew the way I always wanted it to, along with that came the frustration that I saw with how the industry operated, particularly at the human level, connecting to people as people and uh, you know, the transactional nature and the litigation and all that stuff that comes with it.
• 3:20
  Angelo: So that kind of spawned the human side of construction.
• 3:24
  Angelo: And uh so now I'm working, I'm still full-time in construction, so I'm director of ops for a mid-sized mechanical here in Canada.
• 3:30
  Angelo: And I also work on with companies and individuals to essentially make the industry a better place.
• 3:36
  Ryan: So yeah, I mean you're still doing full-time work and you have found time to to dive into this passion piece, something that caught your caught your eye.
• 3:45
  Angelo: Yeah, so it's so it started uh just kind of as a fluke on posting on social media, and then once I found the the potential and how the message resonated with so many people, it kind of grew into a side hustle.
• 3:56
  Angelo: And now uh, you know, who knows where it's gonna go.
• 3:58
  Angelo: But uh it's been a fun journey so far.
• 4:02
  Ryan: Well, it's it I'm glad you did find that time and that you have found kind of a reason to dive into it.
• 4:08
  Ryan: Um so with that, you know, really the first question that we want to we want to understand is you you you were working, you found yourself in the industry.
• 4:17
  Ryan: There's a funny story there.
• 4:19
  Ryan: You you can dive into it, feel free with that as well.
• 4:22
  Ryan: But the side hustle, you you saw something, you saw a problem that you were aiming to solve, and and kind of why that you you felt the need that, hey, I have a full-time job, I should start to address this.
• 4:35
  Angelo: Yeah, so I'll take you back to uh probably 1992.
• 4:40
  Angelo: I was eight or nine, I was in my uh parents' restaurant, like every good Greek Canadian, they got into the restaurant industry.
• 4:45
  Angelo: So I was sitting in the back uh with my old man, and I looked up to him and I said, you know, wouldn't it be cool if I took over the restaurant one day?
• 4:52
  Angelo: And I remember the look on his face.
• 4:54
  Angelo: It was very stern.
• 4:55
  Angelo: It was not what I was expecting, coming from like a loving moment like that, looking up to your father.
• 5:00
  Angelo: And he goes, No, you're going to school, you're gonna work from the neck up.
• 5:03
  Angelo: So, you know, loud and clear, took that message.
• 5:06
  Angelo: I still ended up working in the restaurant for 10 years and learned kind of the hard knocks of life there.
• 5:11
  Angelo: But that's when I got into engineering, uh, because my parents were big on getting an education, which is something they didn't have, right?
• 5:17
  Angelo: Every generation wants better for their kids than they had.
• 5:20
  Angelo: So I kind of followed that traditional path, took mechanical engineering, graduated, thought, okay, I'm gonna be the best uh HVAC engineer in the world.
• 5:28
  Angelo: I'm gonna design ducting systems, because that's you know, was the ultimate thing for me.
• 5:33
  Angelo: Thank God, luckily, I didn't end up in that and ended up working in construction.
• 5:38
  Angelo: And the fluke was, you know, I graduated mid-2000s, so we were coming out of a recession, and there weren't many jobs around.
• 5:45
  Angelo: And uh so I was looking for a job as a consultant and you know, nothing was coming up.
• 5:50
  Angelo: I was basically running out of money, I was living on my own and uh needed to pay the bills, so I started applying to random jobs, ended up working for an M ⁇ E contractor or MEP, I guess you call it in the States, in uh in East Coast of Canada.
• 6:04
  Angelo: And that's how I kind of fell into the industry.
• 6:06
  Angelo: And what I noticed really early on is it's super technical, right?
• 6:10
  Angelo: It's very hard skills, uh, you know, math, accounting, process-driven RFIs, SIs, all that stuff.
• 6:17
  Angelo: And that's where all the training was focused.
• 6:19
  Angelo: But what I could see happening behind the scenes was especially when you get to a supervisor level or higher, you're you're dealing with people.
• 6:27
  Angelo: The technical skills go away, and you're dealing with people.
• 6:29
  Angelo: Even when you're on site as a journeyman on the tools, you're interacting with the trait next year, right?
• 6:34
  Angelo: So and what I kind of started to focus on more and more is despite the fact that that's where a lot of the energy is spent, uh, there's very little training on it.
• 6:44
  Angelo: You know, how to have difficult conversations, how to resolve conflict, even just understanding basic human psychology, how people tick.
• 6:50
  Angelo: You don't need a four-year degree to understand that if you're actually, if you act a certain way, it's gonna upset somebody else.
• 6:57
  Angelo: So that was one element of the human side of construction.
• 7:00
  Angelo: And the other one was, you know, once you get in behind the curtain and you see the pride and the amazing things that can be done within the construction industry, I thought to myself, why the hell don't more people know about this?
• 7:12
  Angelo: Like it's not at that time, it wasn't promoted in schools.
• 7:16
  Angelo: Nobody really talked about it.
• 7:17
  Angelo: It was just looked down upon as a job you could get into if you didn't do well in school or something to fall back on.
• 7:23
  Angelo: But there's a huge potential.
• 7:25
  Angelo: So essentially the human side of construction, I always say it's kind of two prongs.
• 7:28
  Angelo: One is uh improving awareness and understanding of the industry to the external population, but also more importantly is improving the human experience within it because we don't do a very good job in how we lead and how we treat our people.
• 7:42
  Ryan: I think that's such an important point.
• 7:44
  Ryan: And I hear I hear it from like a lot of different associations and things, and I I don't like the word soft skills.
• 7:51
  Ryan: It is I don't know how you feel about it.
• 7:52
  Ryan: I don't like it.
• 7:53
  Ryan: Um they're humans.
• 7:55
  Ryan: And and with humans, like it doesn't matter where what your background is or where you came from, your mind works the same, it functions the same.
• 8:06
  Ryan: So what you just said about hey, you should be able to recognize without a degree, how something you're doing is impacting someone else in order to support them through something or or help them grow, um, you know, from them, their aspect and and knowledge and talent.
• 8:29
  Ryan: Um, but you know, backing up then, you know, as you got into this, because you like you said, your dad's like, hey, you're not gonna follow my path.
• 8:37
  Ryan: I've done that a little bit with my kids since I got into construction.
• 8:41
  Ryan: Um but you the that moment that you started to see that, like what was it that made you say, hey, this is a problem.
• 8:51
  Ryan: It seems universal.
• 8:53
  Ryan: And you as one person, like, I need to dive in and do this.
• 8:58
  Ryan: I need to dive in and figure this out.
• 8:59
  Ryan: Like, what was it that really set you off?
• 9:02
  Angelo: There were a couple moments really early on.
• 9:04
  Angelo: Um I can think back to the first within the first two weeks of when I started working.
• 9:10
  Angelo: Because, you know, as I mentioned, I'm an engineering graduate.
• 9:13
  Angelo: I started working for a construction company and they put me in a service truck with an HVAC technician.
• 9:18
  Angelo: Okay, and we I was running around doing service calls with them, just observing.
• 9:22
  Angelo: I remember thinking to myself, like, what the hell am I doing here?
• 9:25
  Angelo: Like, I'm an engineering graduate.
• 9:27
  Angelo: They told me I was gonna be making six figures, I was gonna be telling people what to do, I was gonna be this big professional and riding around with this gruff HVAC technician who's like listening to rock music and like smoking in the truck.
• 9:39
  Angelo: And I was like, but we went to a call and it was uh uh an issue in a mechanical room.
• 9:45
  Angelo: So we walked into the mechanical room and I was looking around, kind of a little bit dough-eyed because you know I hadn't been in one before.
• 9:52
  Angelo: And uh the guy was with Robert Thompson goes, Hey, Mr.
• 9:56
  Angelo: Engineer, do you know what that is?
• 9:57
  Angelo: And he pointed at this big metal thing.
• 9:59
  Angelo: And I said, No, Robert, I don't have any idea.
• 10:02
  Angelo: He goes, That's a chiller.
• 10:03
  Angelo: And it hit me like a ton of bricks because I remember learning about chillers.
• 10:08
  Angelo: I remember looking in textbooks.
• 10:09
  Angelo: I remember learning about pumps and valves.
• 10:11
  Angelo: I had no idea what they were or what they did, but I remember seeing it in the book.
• 10:16
  Angelo: And that that's where it hit me.
• 10:17
  Angelo: It was like, you don't know what you don't know.
• 10:20
  Angelo: And there's a lot, and as my career kind of progressed, I kept that in mind.
• 10:24
  Angelo: Because even within construction, you can have subject matter experts.
• 10:27
  Angelo: But every trade, every discipline is so vast and deep and unique, you can never know everything about one topic, let alone the whole industry.
• 10:37
  Angelo: So that's where it was, you know, taking that learner's mindset and just being curious.
• 10:42
  Angelo: But then you couple that with the human tendency to hide your vulnerabilities and not admit that you don't know something, which introduces problems on site with ego.
• 10:50
  Angelo: And the other moment that I mentioned there were two, the other one was the first time I saw like a confrontation on site, two guys arguing, because one guy had his pipe going this way, another guy had his duct in the way, and these guys were literally like not physically fighting, but they were screaming at each other.
• 11:04
  Angelo: I was like, why don't you just talk about it and figure it out?
• 11:08
  Angelo: There's probably 10 solutions, you know?
• 11:11
  Angelo: Right.
• 11:11
  Angelo: And uh, and that's that was probably the first moment early on that I I recognized this human side and how it's like, okay, something's going on here that people don't pay attention to, but it's super critical and foundational to the work we do every day.
• 11:25
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 11:26
  Ryan: I mean, those stories, I I think everybody probably has them, and you recognize that I've seen them.
• 11:32
  Ryan: You know, I think about a I think about a site superintendent that was going through a divorce when I was younger and watching the disaster that was happening in front of me.
• 11:41
  Ryan: There was a transactional piece of the project going south, but there was this human on the other side of it who was really going through stuff.
• 11:49
  Ryan: And it was like, like, that's tough.
• 11:53
  Ryan: Um, how can you have, you know, you're you're supposed to be rough and tough in this industry and go through all these things, but at the same time, like have enough empathy to be like, this guy's feeling.
• 12:04
  Ryan: Yeah, I mean, he's he's feeling a lot right now.
• 12:06
  Ryan: So I appreciate you sharing that and and then that you recognize it like, hey, this isn't okay.
• 12:13
  Ryan: It sounds like you got a little bit of like, hey, let's test you, you know, college grad, let's test you on something, and I'm going to prove you wrong that you you don't know everything.
• 12:23
  Ryan: So there's a lot of areas that could go into that because I think you started getting into without saying it, you know, almost this we we've talked transactional, but this psychological safety of feeling like, hey, it's okay to not know.
• 12:39
  Ryan: It's okay to try to treat it like a laboratory and kind of test.
• 12:44
  Ryan: So how have you seen that that human side as you've evolved through your career and you you've you're now in a leadership role, you're in operation, like like what are you what are you seeing like from another other standpoint of like not accepting this sort of approach to leadership that you're stressing up, you know, this is this is how you become a transformational leader.
• 13:12
  Angelo: Yeah.
• 13:12
  Angelo: Well, that's really interesting because you know, when you make the transition from a contributor to a leader or manager, like the I don't want to confuse the terms leader and manager because those are two different things, right?
• 13:23
  Angelo: Manager is a title.
• 13:24
  Angelo: Leader you can lead from any level.
• 13:26
  Angelo: So I always kind of saw myself as a leader in the sense that, you know, from early on I could tell if somebody like you mentioned, if they're having a divorce, they're going through a tough time, just recognizing that and acknowledging it.
• 13:36
  Angelo: And it's something I'm still working on.
• 13:38
  Angelo: And I didn't get until well into my 30s.
• 13:40
  Angelo: But the ideas of empathy and compassion and just validating people's existence and feelings, not, you know, don't have to agree with it, but to acknowledge it and validate it, it there's a huge power in that.
• 13:52
  Angelo: And uh, but as an individual contributor, I was limited in what I could do.
• 13:56
  Angelo: And I was always like helping to diffuse situations.
• 13:59
  Angelo: But at the end of the day, it was like, you know what, this guy's being a jerk to me, not my problem, just kind of shut him out.
• 14:04
  Angelo: But now when you make the transition into a formal supervisory role management and a true leader with authority and responsibility, it's super important to connect with your people at that level.
• 14:15
  Angelo: And I've seen so many people fail at it because what happens in construction, especially on site, if you're really good on the tools and you're a hard worker and you show up to work, do a good job every day.
• 14:23
  Angelo: Oh, you know, Ryan's a great uh journeyman, let's make him a foreman because he's good at but that you know, not every good player makes a good coach.
• 14:30
  Angelo: Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, there's probably other examples too.
• 14:34
  Angelo: So uh as a leader, we have to kind of change the mindset of construction, stop thinking like the hardest worker is not necessarily the best leader, A.
• 14:44
  Angelo: And B, everybody comes with their own sets of experiences: good, bad, indifferent, baggage, past traumas.
• 14:51
  Angelo: There's tons of past traumas, especially site workers in the industry.
• 14:54
  Angelo: You know, if you watch a worker get critically injured, or God forbid, uh work site fatality, you're telling me that's not gonna mess you up and you're not gonna take that for the rest of your career when you're performing that task or going to work.
• 15:05
  Angelo: But historically, it's been like, oh, you know, be a man, grow a pear, just suck it up.
• 15:10
  Angelo: We're tough, rough, tough construction workers.
• 15:12
  Angelo: You can't acknowledge your feelings.
• 15:14
  Angelo: And that trickles into the office, too, by the way, not just the site.
• 15:17
  Angelo: So we we really need to break that down.
• 15:21
  Ryan: Yeah, you're talking, you're talking about mindset and even generational.
• 15:26
  Ryan: Like you talk a lot about this in your book, um, you know, Rebuild Construction, right?
• 15:31
  Ryan: So I focus a lot on that change and our mindsets around it, and you're talking about it, right?
• 15:38
  Ryan: So that maybe diving into that because while there's generational divide in that, hey, we're supposed to be rough tough, especially men, right?
• 15:46
  Ryan: Oh, men, you're supposed to be this way, you're not supposed to show any emotions, you're not supposed to have any feelings.
• 15:52
  Ryan: The next generations are that's not the case.
• 15:56
  Ryan: So you know, part of it is our you you mentioned this earlier, and I love it too.
• 16:04
  Ryan: Like sometimes we're afraid to admit when what we're doing now is actually wrong given the situation.
• 16:14
  Ryan: Versus before, maybe whether it was right or wrong, it fit the situation that we were in.
• 16:21
  Ryan: But you've alluded to this, like our current situation and the future situation, right?
• 16:26
  Ryan: They're not going to be the same.
• 16:29
  Angelo: So yeah, at the heart of it, to kind of sum it up, is the way the industry has operated over the last few decades is just not going to continue.
• 16:38
  Angelo: I think it's been going the way because of momentum and a lot of the old school uh thoughts and old school way of doing things, rough, tough, screaming, yelling.
• 16:48
  Angelo: It worked.
• 16:48
  Angelo: It worked very well.
• 16:49
  Angelo: In the short term, it always does, but it it does not build a long-term sustainable future.
• 16:55
  Angelo: And the way that kids are taught these days, some people will throw around words like woke and all that stuff.
• 17:01
  Angelo: They're just different.
• 17:02
  Angelo: And you're not gonna change the way that they are.
• 17:05
  Angelo: And you're not so that it's it's an interesting thing because you've got the older generation who they're not gonna change because they're used to doing things the same way.
• 17:13
  Angelo: You've got the younger generation that's not gonna change, and you have this transitional leadership that's happening now, the millennials who are now taking in senior level rules that are responsible for making this whole thing work.
• 17:24
  Angelo: The people at this end of the spectrum, oh, I'm not gonna change.
• 17:28
  Angelo: I have two, five years left in retirement.
• 17:29
  Angelo: Why should I feel uncomfortable and deal with change and fear what the unknown, which essentially you deal with change, you know what that's what it's all about.
• 17:36
  Angelo: Right.
• 17:36
  Angelo: Right.
• 17:37
  Angelo: But we have to do it, guys.
• 17:39
  Angelo: We have to do it.
• 17:40
  Angelo: And I honestly, those old school construction guys who will just say, Oh, kids are lazy these days, or they're they're pansies because they talk about their feelings.
• 17:48
  Angelo: I just want to I want to grab them, Ryan.
• 17:50
  Angelo: I want to give them a big hug and say, you don't need to do this anymore.
• 17:55
  Angelo: I I thank you.
• 17:56
  Angelo: I appreciate you.
• 17:58
  Angelo: At one point, this is how it was, and thank you for what you did, but you don't have to do this anymore.
• 18:04
  Angelo: You know, it's almost like a goodwill hunting moment.
• 18:06
  Angelo: You know the scene in Goodwill Hunting where he says, It's not your fault.
• 18:09
  Angelo: And Matt Damon says, I know, I know.
• 18:11
  Angelo: It's not your fault.
• 18:12
  Angelo: And he breaks down.
• 18:13
  Angelo: I think that's what we need.
• 18:14
  Angelo: I don't know, tell me I'm crazy.
• 18:15
  Ryan: And no, I it's a great, well, one, it's a great point on on you know how it kind of came out on goodwill hunting, but it's true.
• 18:24
  Ryan: And I think that again, we hold on to things that we can feel are not correct anymore.
• 18:31
  Ryan: Maybe, maybe irrelevancy is is part of it.
• 18:36
  Ryan: Like I'm afraid, I'm embarrassed to say that it doesn't work anymore, or I'm I feel like I'm becoming irrelevant.
• 18:42
  Ryan: And nobody likes that.
• 18:44
  Ryan: No one wants to feel that way.
• 18:47
  Ryan: But you're right in this, and I love what you said is like giving them a hug, but saying, it's okay.
• 18:55
  Ryan: Like, you don't have to feel this way or that way anymore.
• 18:59
  Ryan: Like we need to, we need we need to be able to help them become willing participants, perhaps in the change of like there there you still have relevancy in helping us upskill, but the situations are now changing, and maybe the tools are changing and the delivery models are changing, or the solutions might be changing to where that next generation does have an upper upper hand on you.
• 19:26
  Ryan: That's okay.
• 19:27
  Ryan: Um because we don't want and you allude to this a lot too, is we cannot bring in enough talent into the industry, and we have a bucket that you know the AGC here in the States will say it's empty, it's constantly in an emptying mode.
• 19:46
  Ryan: So if the older generation, you know, they've they've built something great as an industry that had something that worked then, their legacy is what do you want to leave behind for those next generations, not just in the building.
• 20:05
  Ryan: So that's how I think about it.
• 20:06
  Ryan: I don't know what you think about that, but I'm like, hey, you do have a role in transitioning to a new industry, to a new view of the industry.
• 20:16
  Angelo: And being being challenged doesn't isn't somebody saying you're wrong.
• 20:20
  Angelo: Okay, there and I'm the first one to say it's it's in the first chapter of my book, Construction Sucks.
• 20:25
  Angelo: That's the title of the chapter.
• 20:26
  Angelo: Some people see that and probably like, I'm not gonna read anymore because this guy's an idiot.
• 20:29
  Angelo: But if you read on, it's not the whole industry.
• 20:32
  Angelo: You can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
• 20:34
  Angelo: There are so many neat things about being in the industry.
• 20:37
  Angelo: And yeah, it is tough mentally, physically, emotionally.
• 20:40
  Angelo: It's very tough.
• 20:41
  Angelo: You have to have grit, and it's not for everybody.
• 20:43
  Angelo: But for the people that it's suited to that have the right personality, it can be life-changing, man.
• 20:48
  Angelo: Both on site, in the office, whatever, even in finance, because there's so many support systems within uh construction.
• 20:53
  Angelo: So one good thing we've done, and I'm interested to get your take on this, one good thing I think we've done is doing more to promote the construction industry.
• 21:02
  Angelo: You got guys like Mike Rowe sending out awesome messages about the shortages and getting people, and there's lots of you know engagement there and traction.
• 21:09
  Angelo: Government, you know, there's incentives, they're pushing people in.
• 21:12
  Angelo: High schools, we're getting it in even younger now.
• 21:14
  Angelo: Elementary schools are being taught about uh options for the trades, uh, which is which is great.
• 21:19
  Angelo: And there's other elements we can touch on around neurodivergence and the understanding there and how a lot of neurodivergent folks end up in blue-collar jobs.
• 21:27
  Angelo: But that's all good, good stuff.
• 21:29
  Angelo: But Ryan, you're this is your business.
• 21:32
  Angelo: What have we done within the industry to accept these different generations, these different mindsets, these different philosophies that are now there's a huge influx into the industry?
• 21:42
  Angelo: Because what I see is, yeah, you know, go into construction, you can make six figures.
• 21:48
  Angelo: It's a great, it's a rewarding industry.
• 21:49
  Angelo: Do we tell them the whole story?
• 21:51
  Angelo: Because when they show up the first day on site and they're handed a shovel to dig a hole, they might be like, nobody told me about this.
• 21:57
  Angelo: Or when they get their first paycheck and realize they're making the same as uh Burger King flipping burgers because it takes time to get put in your five-year apprenticeship and get to that next level.
• 22:05
  Angelo: So it's great that we're funneling people in.
• 22:07
  Angelo: But my concern is when they get in and peep behind the curtain, they're gonna be like, this isn't what I signed up for, and they're gonna leave.
• 22:14
  Angelo: Not all of them, but I think a good number of them.
• 22:17
  Angelo: So I don't know.
• 22:18
  Angelo: Tell me if I'm wrong or your thoughts on that.
• 22:20
  Ryan: No, it's you're you're you're spot on because it's not just, I think, in the trades.
• 22:24
  Ryan: I think we're seeing in the office, and I think we see it in engineering and we see it in architecture.
• 22:28
  Ryan: Um, but I I you you're right.
• 22:31
  Ryan: Backing up into like here, Ace, uh, which is uh a national organization where we go into high schools and try to get students to understand more about architecture, engineering, instruction, and how they might be able to take part of it as a as a career choice that might be different than than others.
• 22:52
  Ryan: The but you're but you're right in the sense of like we do give there's a falsity into what it actually is.
• 23:03
  Ryan: And I think that the this is my belief, like if there aren't going to be enough humans to even fill into it, like we need to create an industry that is around bringing people in to do things.
• 23:18
  Ryan: One, be honest with them, two, yes, it takes hard work, but that doesn't mean burnout has to be the bar for architects or engineers, or or that you have to be rough and tough.
• 23:30
  Ryan: Yes, it takes strength.
• 23:31
  Ryan: Yes, you gotta hoist beams, but we're not building pyramids anymore.
• 23:36
  Ryan: There's a lot of technology that the future generations, you know, whether it's additive manufacturing to robotics and these things, that they might be partaking in to bring an advantage into it where they're like, hey, this is an industry that's worthwhile that's purposeful in the fact that we're building better housing at a lower cost to get people out of poverty in house poor situations because I don't know how it is in Canada, I think it's the same.
• 24:07
  Ryan: We can't get enough housing units here.
• 24:09
  Ryan: And we can't do it because we there aren't enough labors from from all areas and aspects in residential building to commercial.
• 24:18
  Ryan: But we can't even get through, you know, the permitting and all those processes because there aren't enough people to even do all the reviews of that.
• 24:27
  Ryan: So the whole like the industry, everyone thinks like the industry is this small little thing that's just trades or contractors, and it's like it's there's so many people that it takes to do this.
• 24:40
  Ryan: If none of them are like, hey, this is worthwhile.
• 24:45
  Ryan: It, you know, what's the purpose of it?
• 24:47
  Ryan: Why am I digging this trench?
• 24:49
  Ryan: Well, we are trying to dig up the sanitary, right?
• 24:53
  Ryan: Like we are trying to get infrastructure enhanced so that we can have better lives and people aren't losing cars and potholes, uh, whatever it is, right?
• 25:03
  Ryan: That there is a bigger purpose for them and they're it's a worthwhile, it's a worthwhile career for them.
• 25:10
  Ryan: So I know I said a lot there, but it's no, no, for sure.
• 25:13
  Ryan: Anyway, go back to yours.
• 25:17
  Ryan: It's one where it's like you've seen it in your career.
• 25:21
  Ryan: I have.
• 25:22
  Ryan: I left architecture because I was like, this there's gotta be there's gotta be a better way to do it.
• 25:27
  Ryan: Started construction.
• 25:29
  Ryan: So we both have, I think, experienced that there is a cost that they're feeling now as a business.
• 25:39
  Ryan: And if you're thinking transactional, the way transactional leaders see it, it's like mental health, um, helping people through change, helping people understand what how to become that transformational leader, it may feel like selling the invisible to some people, preventative.
• 25:59
  Ryan: But what do you feel like, hey, like why is this so important to solve and what is it costing not just that business, but the industry not solving it.
• 26:12
  Ryan: Um are you talking specific to mental health or or I'm talking, think about everything that we're we're discussing here.
• 26:19
  Ryan: There's the mental health, there's being a transformational leader, yeah.
• 26:23
  Ryan: Um, being someone who connects to human.
• 26:25
  Ryan: Go back to your original concept of connecting to the humans and understanding of it as an industry.
• 26:31
  Angelo: Yeah.
• 26:32
  Angelo: So I think that it this is a really important topic to have uh a conversation to have around the whole leadership piece, because we talk about the uh issues, right?
• 26:40
  Angelo: Like there's the labor shortage, there's inefficiencies on site, uh, there's people losing time, there's people getting injured.
• 26:47
  Angelo: But a lot of those are kind of symptoms of a bigger problem that I find.
• 26:51
  Angelo: And it's it's disconnection, right?
• 26:54
  Angelo: It's people, uh especially when we talk about labor shortage and mentorship and teaching people, because yeah, we have a bunch of experienced people who have the knowledge.
• 27:02
  Angelo: There's a bunch of younger people coming in.
• 27:03
  Angelo: You can't just smash them together and expect them to learn by osmosis.
• 27:07
  Angelo: It's the same with health and safety, right?
• 27:08
  Angelo: And as you were talking about different ways, different methodologies, safety came to mind.
• 27:12
  Angelo: And there's videos, uh tons of videos, especially on social media, some sites uh enacted, like stretching before uh and people are making fun of it, they're mocking it.
• 27:22
  Angelo: Even though there's studies and data to show musculoskeletal uh injuries are like the most common thing, and they'll take people out and they'll wreck your life if you twist your back the wrong way.
• 27:31
  Angelo: So by stretching a little bit, but again, it's that change in mindset, it's that difference in uh thinking.
• 27:36
  Angelo: But what it comes down to to me is just connecting with people, going back to first principles, very foundational, having a relationship with somebody.
• 27:44
  Angelo: Because if you just start talking about safety or you start talking about teaching experience and you start talking about uh uh this and that processes, people aren't gonna listen.
• 27:55
  Angelo: They're not gonna trust you until you have that basic foundation of a human-to-human connection built on trust, uh, likability, and uh and just you know, getting to know somebody as a human before you later on the complexities of doing business.
• 28:11
  Ryan: Yeah, I love that you said that too, because I think that's you go back to Stephen Covey, you know, the speed of trust and the tax that gets paid by businesses where there is low trust.
• 28:23
  Ryan: And, you know, there's stories that I have, you know, as a leader, and even in my own life, it's like, I don't know, like if I don't know this other person well enough, and when I would have people who were struggling with someone, I'd be like, when's the last time you sat and had a coffee with them?
• 28:39
  Ryan: Lunch.
• 28:40
  Ryan: You don't have to be best friends, but you should connect with this other human to understand how they think, how they how they learn, how they want to be communicated with.
• 28:51
  Ryan: And we could talk probably all day on how technology and email has changed that.
• 28:56
  Ryan: And your book does a great job of you know, this how each generation sort of likes to communicate.
• 29:04
  Ryan: As a Gen Xer, I still like the mingle.
• 29:07
  Ryan: I still I will I could sit and talk with somebody for hours about solving the world's problems and never see them again.
• 29:15
  Ryan: That is not the younger generation, but I think emails and hiding behind the keyboard sometimes has become that that problem of that human connection piece that we have not just in the industry, but maybe I know we do in the States.
• 29:29
  Ryan: So with that, as you were telling that story, it's like what as a leader now, what are you besides your books?
• 29:38
  Ryan: Like, how are you telling people you know, hey, I know that this is different?
• 29:45
  Ryan: They may not want to change.
• 29:47
  Ryan: I got to connect it because I think your your tagline is kind of like connecting one human at a time.
• 29:52
  Ryan: Like, what are some things that you've been able to, as a leader, kind of helping people start to build stronger relationships with one another?
• 30:01
  Ryan: And even this is what I always say, even with themselves, of understanding themselves as it relates to change and seeing something different.
• 30:09
  Ryan: Like what have you seen or been able to help others with?
• 30:14
  Angelo: The biggest thing I can find.
• 30:15
  Angelo: So I'm only one person, so you can only work one-on-one with so many, right?
• 30:19
  Angelo: The people who report directly to me are on our team, and I get to spend more one-on-one time with, like we do weekly check-ins, which some people be like, oh, that sounds boring.
• 30:27
  Angelo: But sometimes it's five minutes.
• 30:29
  Angelo: If we sit down and it's like Ryan, everything okay?
• 30:31
  Angelo: You say yeah.
• 30:32
  Angelo: Sometimes I you say yep, and I can see it in your eyes that everything's not okay, and I'll probe a little bit, but that's just from experience and knowing.
• 30:39
  Angelo: Other times I'll sit down for two hours if somebody has a lot to talk about, whether it's home or personal.
• 30:43
  Angelo: But it's and what that does is it creates that space where that person feels uh safe to be who they are and be vulnerable.
• 30:53
  Angelo: And I think once you open up and you break down those walls about trying to cover your ass, which have been Built up over and calloused over many years of getting shit on in construction.
• 31:02
  Angelo: Once you start to break down those walls, it opens up a whole new realm of problem solving and getting stuff done.
• 31:08
  Angelo: And I feel like that's where we're on the cusp right now of the generational change in the way that we lead people.
• 31:13
  Angelo: Because the new leaders coming in, they're more empathetic, they're more compassionate, they're more willing to sit down with somebody and say, you know, it doesn't matter if you don't know.
• 31:21
  Angelo: Yeah, I'm paying you to do a job, but I would rather have you tell me you don't know something than pretend you know it and mess it up.
• 31:26
  Angelo: Because then I have to pay more to go back and fix it.
• 31:29
  Angelo: So what I try and do is just create that safe space for people to be vulnerable.
• 31:34
  Angelo: And saying words like this, it's language is super important because when you say words like empathy, compassion, feelings, construction folks clam up right away.
• 31:44
  Angelo: That's not those aren't typical words you use, especially on a construction site.
• 31:51
  Angelo: But to me, that that's what's needed.
• 31:53
  Angelo: Because getting back to a point you had mentioned, there's more and more stress on the industry, right?
• 31:59
  Angelo: Infrastructure is growing, the population's aging, we're gonna need more long-term care, gonna need more hospitals, immigration.
• 32:05
  Angelo: I know that's a contentious issue, but you know, populations are growing.
• 32:08
  Angelo: We're gonna need more roads, we need more homes.
• 32:10
  Angelo: And we're getting less and less people to do it.
• 32:12
  Angelo: Like when you look at the numbers, the amount of people that are coming into the industry are not gonna match those that are retiring.
• 32:18
  Angelo: And that's assuming that it's a one-to-one ratio, which it isn't, because you're gonna need three people coming in to do the same amount of work as the one leaving because of the experience factor when you factor in qualitative things.
• 33:38
  Angelo: So it comes down to how are we gonna do more with less?
• 33:43
  Angelo: It's maximize to use like some corporate terms, it's maximizing utilization, productivity, how you do that.
• 33:49
  Angelo: You make sure people have the right training, you meet them where they are, they've got the skills they need to do the job and the tools, and you equip them with the tools to do it.
• 33:56
  Angelo: How are you gonna know that unless you connect with each one of them?
• 33:59
  Angelo: You know what I mean?
• 34:00
  Angelo: And if you're on a site with a thousand people and you're in a big corporation, obviously you can't meet with every single person.
• 34:07
  Angelo: But that's where the culture piece comes in.
• 34:09
  Angelo: Developing that psychological safety.
• 34:11
  Angelo: So it's not just Ryan or Angelo that is the safe space, it's everybody.
• 34:15
  Angelo: They can go talk to anybody in the company to solve a problem or or uh you know work together to get something done.
• 34:21
  Angelo: Right.
• 34:22
  Angelo: I want you to tell me if I'm living in La La Land here, Ryan.
• 34:25
  Angelo: I don't know, because sometimes I tell people this and uh I can see that it's not their thing.
• 34:29
  Angelo: It's definitely not for everybody, but I'm always interested to hear like the other side of the coin too.
• 34:34
  Ryan: But no, I look, I've spent my career, and now I'm diving into similar to what you're doing, is like I I am only one person who can try to help other people.
• 34:46
  Ryan: And I need I want them to see like my whole business is you know based on connecting the human to the change.
• 34:55
  Ryan: So like you're talking, it's it's what you just said is like I want people, I want to lead people in a certain way so that they lead others in their own way, but connecting those humans to it of realizing that it's more than a job, it's more than a career, that it is another human that you're interacting with.
• 35:20
  Ryan: Because when we remove the human piece, like we, you know, we tend to get in our own echo chambers and we tend to believe our own things, and and we're not actually exploring, so we're not solving any problems.
• 35:33
  Ryan: And this industry has been talking about the labor shortage, which I hate the word shortage anymore.
• 35:40
  Ryan: It's like it just doesn't like the labor force will be what the labor force is, and we need to figure out how to go attract the next one into it while keeping and retaining the ones we have by reconnecting them to why they got into this in the first place.
• 35:57
  Ryan: That's that's me.
• 35:59
  Ryan: That's how I think.
• 35:59
  Ryan: But maybe I'm in La La Land too, but I'm like, hey, we've got to reach all generations realizing that all of their feelings are real.
• 36:11
  Ryan: Like they are, they're human, they're allowed to have them.
• 36:15
  Ryan: They're going to struggle with change.
• 36:17
  Ryan: Their mind has been set into default mode in this industry for a long time.
• 36:22
  Ryan: To that work then, it's gotta work now.
• 36:26
  Ryan: It's too, you know, two decades, four decades, whatever it is that you just kind of rinse and repeat.
• 36:32
  Ryan: But I'm trying to get people to understand is like change and understanding other humans is a choice that you have to figure out what your engagement will be with that other human or team or business in order to really evaluate what is going to be you know best for the industry as well as as well as everyone you're dealing with.
• 37:02
  Ryan: So, you know, to me, it's like this is like if we don't solve this, every other industry may find other ways to connect to the humans better than us, and they are relying on this industry to provide them with healthcare, buildings for healthcare, education, housing, um, you know, name it, right?
• 37:25
  Ryan: That's infrastructure, driving down the road, getting, you know, electrical taken care of, whatever it is.
• 37:31
  Ryan: There's a whole world that relies on us to solve this problem.
• 37:35
  Ryan: And my fear is if we don't start understanding the human side of it, as you have, as you have laid out, and kind of what I'm want people to understand is like you've from my perspective is change sucks for everybody.
• 37:53
  Ryan: As you said, construction sucks.
• 37:55
  Ryan: It sucks for everybody.
• 37:57
  Ryan: But when you recognize it, if you're a leader who's trying to drive it, and you are working with multiple generations, that you have to have that empathy like a coach, not sympathy or anything like that.
• 38:13
  Ryan: You're just empathetic to understanding how they might think about it and helping them get to the second choice of how they're going to be involved, how they're going to connect to others, how they're going to work through these things that are coming their way in the industry.
• 38:30
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 38:31
  Ryan: So la la land or not, I love that you're fighting the fight.
• 38:35
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 38:36
  Angelo: No, and it comes back, I know, as you're talking, something came to mind like humans, regardless where you're living, what state you're in, whatever, the same basic human needs, right?
• 38:47
  Angelo: Once your basic things are met, like food and shelter, things like that, social inclusion, um, like those are important elements that we even overlook in construction, like especially people in the trades.
• 38:59
  Angelo: When they're, you know, you take somebody on site, you know, they're thrown into conditions, say it's winter outside, uh, improper heating, they're using a porta potty outside that it's minus 30 degrees.
• 39:11
  Angelo: They got to sit on another curb and eat lunch in the free, like you know what I mean?
• 39:15
  Angelo: They don't have these bait, their basic human needs are not being met.
• 39:18
  Angelo: But even when you kind of zoom out and look at a more macroscopic level in the same uh view, is people want to feel like they're contributing to something bigger than themselves.
• 39:29
  Angelo: Okay.
• 39:29
  Angelo: So painting that picture saying, look, guys, I know we're facing all these challenges right now, but this is what we're trying to do.
• 39:35
  Angelo: If you're on a project, it's building a building.
• 39:37
  Angelo: So if two people are fighting, it's like, okay, stop about this stupid little pipe and drywall interference you're talking about.
• 39:43
  Angelo: We're trying to build a building here, and there's a thousand people on site and we're working together, and you know, you're just a small piece in the puzzle.
• 39:50
  Angelo: And and I found that has worked with some people.
• 39:53
  Angelo: Um and uh yeah, so just you know, addressing that, looking at the at the uh big picture, and like you said, reminding people of why they got into the industry in the first place.
• 40:03
  Angelo: Because one one thing I've noticed, and I've worked at different companies, big and small, on the office side, and I'd be interested to get your experience on this too.
• 40:12
  Angelo: On the office side, it's more and more experience is being replaced with education.
• 40:17
  Angelo: Okay, so in construction companies, a lot of project coordinators are field level uh or low-level, I shouldn't say low-level, entry-level field roles, like field engineers, site surveyors, things like that.
• 40:29
  Angelo: They come from an engineering or architecture background.
• 40:31
  Angelo: Super smart.
• 40:32
  Angelo: Obviously, you have to be smart to get a degree like that, but they don't have the experience of other people.
• 40:38
  Angelo: And because of that, I think they always revert back to the contracts and the drawings because they don't have that personal experience to draw off of.
• 40:47
  Angelo: So now there seems to be more and more of a tendency, again, on the transactional thread, of focusing on administering the contract, not building the job.
• 40:57
  Angelo: And I don't know how many people got into the industry to fulfill the minimum obligations of a contract, Ryan, but that's not why I got into it.
• 41:05
  Angelo: I got into the industry to build cool shit and meet nice people and make connections.
• 41:10
  Angelo: So we got to keep that in mind too, like how people are coming in, um, how they're looking at the industry, what experiences they're having with their uh, you know, middle management and senior leaders.
• 41:20
  Angelo: And yeah, we really got to kind of break that down and again go back to first principles.
• 41:25
  Angelo: Learn how the nuts and bolts come together.
• 41:27
  Angelo: Learn how, you know, start at the basics.
• 41:29
  Angelo: Uh and it sucks because it's like when it's like when you're learning an instrument.
• 41:33
  Angelo: You want to pick up a guitar and start playing Jimi Hendrix or something.
• 41:36
  Angelo: But I'm sorry, but you have to suck for five years before you can even play uh a full song.
• 41:42
  Angelo: And now we're tiptoeing on the whole instant gratification uh issues around there, which we can get into if you want.
• 41:48
  Ryan: But yeah, I think it's a valid point because I think that's part of change, right?
• 41:52
  Ryan: It's part of learning anything.
• 41:54
  Ryan: I I've been on this kick of telling people like if you you know, give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, he'll you know, eat for a lifetime.
• 42:03
  Ryan: But the problem is people think all we're doing is fishing.
• 42:06
  Ryan: It's like the whole point of it is you learn to learn.
• 42:09
  Ryan: You learn that situations are going to change and you relearn and you go through this process.
• 42:14
  Ryan: And I try to tell people is like, look, you change is this area where you you you make a choice, right?
• 42:25
  Ryan: And you sit and you say, All right, I'm committed to doing this, and everyone wants that clarity of going through it, and that you just said instant gratification.
• 42:34
  Ryan: That's not how change works.
• 42:37
  Ryan: You are going to suck at it, whatever you're taking on the first time for a while, depending on how large the change is that you're trying to implement.
• 42:47
  Ryan: Because your brain, your brain has already built strong habits and ruts into what you know.
• 42:53
  Ryan: And a lot of people, we can get into this.
• 42:56
  Ryan: A lot of people get stuck into that known area of like, I can't release it.
• 43:00
  Ryan: I've always known it.
• 43:01
  Ryan: It's too valuable.
• 43:02
  Ryan: Well, that is hurting you.
• 43:05
  Ryan: That is impacting you, it's impacting your team, it's impacting the industry of whatever it is, whatever part of the industry that you happen to be in.
• 43:14
  Ryan: By not understanding this middle area of growth is actually your, that's your education, that's your rebirth, it's the rebuilding of construction where we go through this moment of like, it's okay to be wrong, it's okay to be learning, it's okay because we're doing it together.
• 43:31
  Angelo: Yeah.
• 43:32
  Ryan: And some people will pick it up faster.
• 43:35
  Ryan: That's okay.
• 43:36
  Ryan: Like we tend to want it to be immediate, and that's why we overvalue the current state because it's like, it's too painful.
• 43:48
  Ryan: And I don't get me started, you know, I don't want to get into this too deep, but it's like the word disruption, disruption, disruption.
• 43:54
  Ryan: Well, that has cost to it.
• 43:55
  Ryan: So people tend to push those solutions aside because they think, oh, I'm more, you know, it's too painful for me to go through that.
• 44:05
  Ryan: Well, it's change.
• 44:07
  Ryan: Change does not happen to you, it happens with you.
• 44:11
  Ryan: And if you're unwilling to be a participant in that change, it's going to become more painful than actually just accepting it and making that second choice of what, where is my commitment level and and how can I build action steps to get to that?
• 44:30
  Ryan: So I maybe got a little off topic, but I think when you said, hey, instant gratification, I think that's why as we get a little older, we become kind of a conservative area of our lives.
• 44:44
  Ryan: Like, I don't want to take that risk as my business.
• 44:46
  Ryan: I can lose everything, opposed to another generation coming in and like, I have my whole career ahead of me.
• 44:51
  Ryan: I want to see change very fast.
• 44:54
  Ryan: And the answer is it's it's actually in the middle somewhere.
• 44:57
  Ryan: It's in this area of getting all parties aligned into what it is you're going to take on.
• 45:06
  Ryan: Um, and be it in this case that we're going to be more, you know, as a team, open to that human side, open to conversations, open to creating a psychological safety where we get to give input, we have the freedom to learn, we have the freedom to test, as you were saying, where you can't walk out of school and and know it all.
• 45:30
  Ryan: Um, and I think you talked a little about this in your book, so you can you can kind of hit on this is that that mentoring up and down, right?
• 45:37
  Ryan: Which is a big thing with the technology.
• 45:39
  Ryan: But I just think the cost, you know, from my perspective and what you're saying is like if we don't connect it, the cost is enormous to not only the industry, to the individuals in the industry, but you know, to an entire nation in some cases or region, because we're not willing to look at the problem for what it is and and start to connect ourselves to it and connect others uh to it as well.
• 46:08
  Angelo: Yeah.
• 46:09
  Angelo: And it is a tough concept.
• 46:10
  Angelo: Like you mentioned this earlier on.
• 46:12
  Angelo: It's it's really hard to quantify.
• 46:13
  Angelo: Like, how do you quantify change and the impacts of change?
• 46:16
  Angelo: But like it's pretty clear in some studies I've seen.
• 46:19
  Angelo: Like there was one study I saw, and it was something like $13 billion a year in the US alone is is uh wasted due to uh inaccurate information, miscommunication of drawings or or essentially rework, whether it's somebody not training somebody well enough, not providing the right information at the right time.
• 46:37
  Angelo: So I mean that one stat right there is like you know the cost of not changing things because we keep keep continue to be ramming uh the system down people's throats.
• 46:47
  Angelo: And uh I I want to talk about change for a minute because that's it's that's what was coming to mind as you were talking, because and it's easy to fall into a dichotomy of like older versus younger.
• 46:58
  Angelo: All right, you know what I mean?
• 46:59
  Angelo: The old generation, they just think that all younger kids are entitled tricks and they just want to be on their phone, they don't want to listen, they don't want to put in the hard work.
• 47:07
  Angelo: And then you talk to the younger people and they're like, well, these old guys are just gatekeeping and they want still want to feel relevant and they don't want to pass the torch.
• 47:13
  Angelo: It's like, okay, guys, understand that from both perspectives, but the transformational leadership element and the people who are gonna make a difference in the industry are gonna say, we got to meet in the middle and find a way to connect those two.
• 47:26
  Angelo: Because when you have those uh uh disagreements between those older and younger people and both sides throw their hands up in the air and walk away, what's solved there, right?
• 47:35
  Ryan: Right.
• 47:35
  Angelo: It's uh and the whole short-term thing is a challenge that I see uh because I work with a lot of younger people.
• 47:43
  Angelo: I love working with younger people and and seeing their perspective on things and hearing their questions.
• 47:47
  Angelo: But a lot of what we get is you sit down and you say, Okay, well, where do you want to be in five years or whatever?
• 47:53
  Angelo: This is somebody like at a university.
• 47:55
  Angelo: Oh, uh, you know, senior PM or like a director.
• 47:59
  Angelo: I'm like, okay, good to have the ambition and good to want to get there, but it takes time to get to that level.
• 48:08
  Angelo: And the issue that poses is to get to that level, people will jump companies.
• 48:13
  Angelo: And I've been guilty of myself in the past.
• 48:15
  Angelo: You spend a year somewhere as a junior coordinator, somebody else is offering an extra 10 G's at a as a coordinator or a senior, and so you make the jump.
• 48:24
  Angelo: Okay.
• 48:25
  Angelo: Because that person offered that title and that pay because they were short on people and they needed it.
• 48:29
  Angelo: But the person they brought on isn't capable of operating at that level.
• 48:32
  Angelo: You know what I mean?
• 48:33
  Angelo: So then that person, you know, does the same thing a year later, and then all of a sudden they're at a at a mid-level management and they never really had the experience they needed to succeed as the people they're managing.
• 48:44
  Angelo: So that presents a different challenge too.
• 48:46
  Angelo: How and and you touched on it as well, but how are we going to retain people like that that want to see a career progression and want to move ahead and will be good in the industry just not yet?
• 48:55
  Angelo: So you want to hang on to them and not lose them.
• 48:57
  Angelo: So to me, retention, change management, or change management and and uh figuring out how that loops into retention is probably the most critical skill now of any management or leadership in a company.
• 49:09
  Angelo: It's like, how are we going to find a way to bridge the old generation and the new generation to keep these older guys on board because we need them, but also keep these younger people interested in staying in the industry and graduating up because there's no sense in them coming and leaving.
• 50:19
  Angelo: And you you touched on it too.
• 50:21
  Angelo: There's obviously a cost to doing that, right?
• 50:23
  Angelo: And the cost is extra time because it takes time to coach, it takes time to mentor.
• 50:29
  Angelo: And people say, Oh, I'm so busy.
• 50:30
  Angelo: And because there's so few of those senior people who are capable of running those jobs and doing those tasks, they don't have the time to do it.
• 50:37
  Angelo: And oh, it's gonna cost extra money and we're gonna slow down.
• 50:40
  Angelo: But what's the cost of not doing it?
• 50:42
  Angelo: Because you're not filling that pipeline.
• 50:44
  Angelo: And you might be doing okay now, but in five years, when that guy retires and you never wanted to have him spend time with other people because he was busy, nobody else can do his job.
• 50:53
  Angelo: So now you're uh uh so now you're suffering.
• 50:56
  Angelo: So it's an interesting balance, man.
• 50:58
  Angelo: I don't claim to have all the answers, but even just having conversations like this, I think we need to get more people talking about this stuff to say, to see what's gonna work and what's not gonna work.
• 51:08
  Angelo: Because, like you said, when you try something, change is scary, it might not work.
• 51:11
  Angelo: And in the beginning, it seems like it's not working.
• 51:13
  Angelo: Well, sorry, another another thing uh that that popped in my head was the higher you go up in a company, the longer it takes to impact that change.
• 51:20
  Angelo: The bigger the changes overall, but the longer it takes.
• 51:23
  Angelo: So I remember as a project coordinator, I would get a task that I could be done in five minutes and I could cross off my list and it felt really good and I could see the email that I sent out or the shop drawing I submitted.
• 51:34
  Angelo: But then you move up as a project manager and you're assigning these tasks, you won't see the effects of that for a couple months or six months or a year down the road when the project's done.
• 51:43
  Angelo: But then when you get into leadership in a company and you're talking about strategy, it takes years for this stuff to come.
• 51:49
  Angelo: But at each level, you've gotten used to the quickness and the results, immediate results in some cases.
• 51:56
  Angelo: And then you combine that with people's attention spans these days and five second TikToks and these short uh, you know, instant gratification.
• 52:04
  Angelo: It we have to change the way, I'll go as far as to say how we uh compensate our people, how we promote our people.
• 52:11
  Angelo: Maybe you need to have instead of two levels as a junior PC, senior PC, you need to have 10 levels and say once you hit this check mark and you do these tasks, you get a little salary bump and you get get up to level two or whatever.
• 52:23
  Angelo: And then people can say, Oh yeah, that feels good.
• 52:25
  Angelo: I got a little dopamine hit and I'm gonna continue, I'm gonna stay with this company because there's eight more levels.
• 52:30
  Angelo: Uh just spitballing ideas now.
• 52:32
  Ryan: But no, I I'm glad you added a lot of a lot of those points because I think, you know, as someone that's you know led teams and companies, I used to say when people wanted a title or or whatever change, I'm like, a title is is a barrier to your own belief system of what you're capable of.
• 52:55
  Ryan: I don't like titles.
• 52:57
  Ryan: I I you have to have them, I get them, and the pay structures are there, but I think a lot of times it's like there there's the extrinsic motivation versus the intrinsic, right?
• 53:06
  Ryan: You got into dopamine hit and kind of that instant gratification, and it's it's tying these humans back to the purpose of why they're kind of there in the first place, and and and developing a skill set, like you said, along a task and a path in which they feel they're hitting their purpose and their passion in the industry.
• 53:27
  Ryan: And that that's just my opinion on the titles.
• 53:31
  Ryan: It's like we built maybe, maybe we went too far with it.
• 53:35
  Ryan: I think you're right, maybe there's more tears.
• 53:37
  Ryan: But for me, I was always like, look, I I want to be an architect.
• 53:40
  Ryan: It was never how do I move up?
• 53:42
  Ryan: How do I get this?
• 53:43
  Ryan: I literally was like, okay, I need to learn estimate, I need to learn this, I need to learn how to lead people, all of these things in order to come there.
• 53:49
  Ryan: There was no, I wasn't looking for that, but not every individual is that way.
• 53:55
  Ryan: So I think there is a combination of how do we do it so that people are paid appropriately for the levels in which they're learning and they have those hits to stay in it, where you, like you said, from a dopamine standpoint to stay in the industry, but getting them back to that intrinsic piece of you're choosing this because why?
• 54:18
  Ryan: Why is it important to you?
• 54:19
  Ryan: And then back to the cost piece, it's like I would say it's not costless to ignore it.
• 54:27
  Ryan: Like if we if we ignore it, there we're paying a price for it.
• 54:32
  Ryan: And that pie that that paying of that price is actually where we see you know more more things happening, especially from an architecture standpoint, because I'll just talk in my lane.
• 54:44
  Ryan: I don't want to be as an architect, I didn't want to see things taken out of the design, right?
• 54:49
  Ryan: I didn't want to see it like I had a if I had a specific design and a contractor was like, hey, we got to value engineer this, it was like, well, I don't want I don't want to value engineer that.
• 55:00
  Ryan: That's so important to the experience or whatever, right?
• 55:03
  Ryan: Pick that piece.
• 55:05
  Ryan: Like those expenses that you're we're paying for as an industry are actually putting out a worse product in the end of a design.
• 55:16
  Ryan: Or how you know what we're capable of building, because we're not solving it.
• 55:22
  Ryan: And you said before, like the utilization.
• 55:25
  Ryan: I my belief is that we need to get the cost of construction down and the improvement of what we're designing and building up.
• 55:32
  Ryan: And we can do that with all of these technologies and things if we are able to connect the humans to it and start finding different ways to work together to collaborate.
• 55:44
  Ryan: And we could I we don't have to get into this, but I always think like design build or uh integrated project delivery models, those types of things, to where you're bringing all these different mindsets and skill sets into a collaborative area to learn from one another, to go through that process together in order to achieve one project.
• 56:06
  Ryan: So talk about having differences of opinions in one room, those models do that.
• 56:14
  Ryan: They drive, drive that collaboration, they drive that human connection to to think through some of those things in order to solve it.
• 56:24
  Ryan: So I know I'm saying a lot and thinking through it.
• 56:29
  Ryan: I'm like, man, I want to solve it now.
• 56:31
  Ryan: As I'm thinking about it.
• 56:33
  Angelo: It's uh it the issues we're facing now, they they've developed over generations, right?
• 56:39
  Angelo: We use that term before, it's generational things.
• 56:41
  Angelo: And it's gonna take a long time to turn things around.
• 56:44
  Angelo: It's I'm seeing it now, slow and steady, but the industry is so massive, it's just gonna take time.
• 56:49
  Angelo: And I've been on jobs, I've done design build, I've done IPD, I've done uh P3, uh, I've done all types, lump sum, like standard step sum things.
• 56:58
  Angelo: And it's I don't know if people in construction truly understand the word collaboration.
• 57:05
  Angelo: I don't know, uh Ryan, if it exists in the construction vocabulary.
• 57:08
  Angelo: It's almost like I was trying to think of analogies because I love analogy, but if you bring uh uh a person who's seasoned and ex in in in traditional construction, which has just been designed, bid build, and they're used to just fighting tooth and nail for changes and going back for change orders and that.
• 57:25
  Angelo: It's um and then you bring them to an IPD job, it's almost like bringing a uh a meat eater to a vegetarian restaurant or something.
• 57:33
  Angelo: They they won't know what to do.
• 57:35
  Angelo: They're looking at the menu, being like, yeah, this is food.
• 57:38
  Angelo: I see it's food, but like I don't know what to like what's this edamame and uh and tofu?
• 57:44
  Angelo: Like a so and it's almost like a different language.
• 57:47
  Angelo: So uh but you need those people with the experience to make those IPDs and those Psy successful because they're based on contractor experience.
• 57:55
  Angelo: You're leverag you, it's early engagement and you're leveraging the contractor's engagement throughout the design process.
• 58:01
  Angelo: So I think those are that's the way to go for the future.
• 58:03
  Angelo: Just collaboration is the current currency of the future to me.
• 58:06
  Angelo: But again, it goes back to the mindset and creating that space to facilitate that collaboration.
• 58:12
  Angelo: Because people are taught.
• 58:13
  Angelo: I remember I worked for a company and it was part of their onboarding.
• 58:18
  Angelo: The second day on site is when you prepare your first delay claim.
• 58:21
  Angelo: That is literally, you know, that that that was the methodology.
• 58:25
  Angelo: Just go put your box and gloves on and beat the crap out of each other, squeeze an extra 2% of the job.
• 58:30
  Angelo: But how who who wins in the long run on that?
• 58:33
  Angelo: That gets you the short wins.
• 58:35
  Angelo: That gets you that extra 2% on the job.
• 58:37
  Angelo: But is that owner gonna want to enter into a contract, a collaborative contract with you the next time, knowing that you just beat the shit out of them for the last five years?
• 58:44
  Angelo: You know what I mean?
• 58:45
  Angelo: So that's what really bothered me was a lot of people I've worked with are just focused on the short term.
• 58:51
  Angelo: We got to do well on this project.
• 58:52
  Angelo: We've got to use this person while we have them.
• 58:54
  Angelo: It's like, I'm thinking like bigger picture here, guys.
• 58:57
  Angelo: Like, right maybe because I have 20 years left in my career, but I'm not thinking about the projects I'm working on now.
• 59:03
  Angelo: I'm thinking about the next project and the net project after that and how I want to help grow the company and the impact I want to have on the industry.
• 59:10
  Angelo: And not everybody thinks like that, but I think if we all took that little tidbit and tried to make the industry a little bit better every single day, imagine the impact that would have if everybody took that thought to work tomorrow.
• 59:22
  Angelo: It would have massive impact because there's millions and millions of people that work in the industry in US and Canada alone.
• 59:29
  Ryan: Right.
• 59:29
  Ryan: Exponential growth through one step and action item at a time.
• 59:33
  Ryan: And I'm glad you said that.
• 59:34
  Ryan: It's it there, you know, there's eight and a half to ten million here.
• 59:37
  Ryan: What I don't know if you got a million and a half to two there in Canada.
• 59:41
  Ryan: And it's you're right.
• 59:42
  Ryan: Like I think a lot of times we think, well, that problem's too big for me to get involved in.
• 59:46
  Ryan: So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna push it to the side.
• 59:49
  Ryan: And I hearing you say it too, it's like, hey, we just take look at one thing, question it, and take an action.
• 59:58
  Ryan: Like, what action could you take to start to improve it?
• 1:00:02
  Ryan: Even if you are retiring in a month, what legacy are you aiming to leave when you walk out?
• 1:00:09
  Ryan: I mean, I'm like you.
• 1:00:11
  Ryan: It's like I've got what, 20, well, maybe not 20, quite 20 years left, but yeah, I want to leave an impact.
• 1:00:19
  Ryan: I am not thinking short-term transactional piece of a project.
• 1:00:23
  Ryan: It is what did we learn like a laboratory?
• 1:00:27
  Ryan: This may have gone wrong on this case, but it doesn't mean it was a wrong answer.
• 1:00:31
  Ryan: It's just putting us closer to a right one in the future as we're working towards something.
• 1:00:36
  Ryan: So with that, I you know, uh we could go on forever, but I want to ask you then, you know, you've said 20 years.
• 1:00:44
  Ryan: I I said I got probably maybe 15, maybe 22 now.
• 1:00:47
  Ryan: What like if you were not in a crystal ball, but what is that successful thing for you?
• 1:00:57
  Ryan: If you're looking, you know, 20 years from now and you've got your books out, you know, you've made your impact.
• 1:01:04
  Ryan: What is that?
• 1:01:05
  Ryan: What do you telling, you know, the next generations that are coming in?
• 1:01:10
  Ryan: Whatever they are, it's not gonna be Z.
• 1:01:12
  Ryan: I don't even know.
• 1:01:13
  Ryan: What do they call it now?
• 1:01:14
  Ryan: Um Alpha.
• 1:01:15
  Ryan: I don't know.
• 1:01:16
  Ryan: I don't know how the word Greek letters work.
• 1:01:18
  Ryan: Right.
• 1:01:19
  Ryan: It's it's beta, like whatever it is, right?
• 1:01:21
  Ryan: What does Angelo want them to be experiencing?
• 1:01:28
  Angelo: I think uh I just want them to feel welcome in construction, regardless of your background, regardless of your experience.
• 1:01:37
  Angelo: And we're not getting into gender or ethnicity or anything like that.
• 1:01:41
  Angelo: Just regardless of who you are, I want you to want to be in the industry and I want you to feel valued.
• 1:01:47
  Angelo: And to me, if and I want you to contribute and and to your personal and professional development to you.
• 1:01:53
  Angelo: If they can check off those things to me, that that's a successful either you know, employee or any person in the industry.
• 1:01:59
  Angelo: Um I don't know if that's too wishy-washy for you, Ryan.
• 1:02:04
  Ryan: It is not it is not not not wishy, because you again it's human.
• 1:02:09
  Ryan: Like I think everyone could listen to this and be like, these guys are they're being a little sappy, but it's like I I wanted my employees to always feel like I was helping them to be whatever version of themselves they wanted them to be, right?
• 1:02:27
  Ryan: So just like you just said.
• 1:02:29
  Ryan: And I and I'm glad you shared that because I think who wouldn't want that?
• 1:02:35
  Ryan: Who wouldn't want it right now, right?
• 1:02:38
  Ryan: Like who wouldn't want to walk out knowing that they've left, you know, they're leaving in one month, that they've left something to where that next group of leadership to those individuals that are in that company felt like that person was always there, understood me, um, realized what I was capable of and what other people were capable of.
• 1:03:02
  Angelo: Yeah, I mean and it's not all warm and fuzzy, let's hold hands and sing Kumba.
• 1:03:06
  Angelo: Yeah.
• 1:03:06
  Angelo: If you when you look, when you put the business lens on it, and you take an employee who feels valued, feels welcome, can show up as their authentic self.
• 1:03:14
  Angelo: And then you take an employee who has to hide that they, you know, might be missing their kids' soccer game because they had to work and they didn't want to look like a pansy for asking for the day off.
• 1:03:24
  Angelo: Or like, which one is more likely to succeed as an individual and and help your company succeed?
• 1:03:29
  Angelo: Which one's more likely to show up at work and give it their all?
• 1:03:32
  Angelo: Which one's more likely to come and take time out to help a coworker to teach them or or just help them on a task?
• 1:03:38
  Angelo: So it it yeah, it it's it's helping people feel good at a core individual element, but it helps to facilitate that collaboration and helping people perform their best, going back to utilization productivity.
• 1:03:51
  Ryan: Yeah.
• 1:03:52
  Ryan: I mean, that's uh that's a great point on the on the transformational side that I you know, transactions are going to happen.
• 1:03:59
  Ryan: And if people were valued, if they feel they're valued, if they feel like they're giving everything that they can and they're driven to that purpose, the transactions will improve.
• 1:04:08
  Ryan: Because they will develop skill sets, they'll develop it, they'll pass that down.
• 1:04:12
  Ryan: And, you know, I had a had recently was talking to a fractional CFO on on the podcast, and we were talking about how we need every business to be successful.
• 1:04:21
  Ryan: They have to make money.
• 1:04:22
  Ryan: Like we want to see that.
• 1:04:23
  Ryan: So it's the same case as every individual inside this industry from a transformational standpoint.
• 1:04:30
  Ryan: We need them to feel that they are contributing and successful and growing, and not only, you know, in their own careers and businesses, but that there is someone healing in a hospital, there is someone going through potentially into life care, whatever it is, right?
• 1:04:47
  Ryan: Or you flip side, it's a school with young students in there learning about the next amazing thing that that the world might might need to take on.
• 1:04:56
  Ryan: So going back to that purpose, like you're saying, like that's ultimately the human connection.
• 1:05:02
  Ryan: And and you know, to to wrap up, then I I I'm so grateful that you had a moment where you were like, look, this is worth it, right?
• 1:05:12
  Ryan: It's worth writing the book, you know, first book, but to get in the second one and and start developing and working with those within your team and others and getting your voice out.
• 1:05:23
  Ryan: So I'm appreciative that you're you're out there doing that.
• 1:05:26
  Ryan: Um, and I love your story and everything that you're sharing.
• 1:05:31
  Ryan: Um so with that, I just want to make sure, like, what what would you say then?
• 1:05:35
  Ryan: What is the next step you would tell somebody who was sitting and listening like that they they can think about or they could do um that you feel would be impactful?
• 1:05:47
  Angelo: So the number one thing I tell people, and this is anybody but leaders especially, is change is coming.
• 1:05:53
  Angelo: You can either force yourself to change or you can be forced into it by the change.
• 1:05:58
  Angelo: Either way it's gonna be uncomfortable.
• 1:06:01
  Angelo: But there's one that's you'll you'll suffer a lot less, and that's embracing it, getting ahead of it, accepting it.
• 1:06:07
  Angelo: We live in a world of change.
• 1:06:08
  Angelo: Every every day changes AI, all this stuff.
• 1:06:10
  Angelo: But there is a change coming in the construction industry.
• 1:06:13
  Angelo: So find it a productive way to be part of that.
• 1:06:15
  Angelo: Uh don't fight it.
• 1:06:17
  Angelo: You don't have to agree with it, but it's just embracing it and uh you know finding a way to live with it because uh change is the only constant.
• 1:06:24
  Angelo: So that's my my number one advice for anybody these days.
• 1:06:29
  Ryan: Well, good.
• 1:06:30
  Ryan: Thanks for sharing that piece.
• 1:06:31
  Ryan: I think that is important.
• 1:06:33
  Ryan: Um, change is the one constant.
• 1:06:35
  Ryan: So Angelo, it's been uh it's been an honor kind of talking through this with you.
• 1:06:40
  Ryan: We just scratched the surface.
• 1:06:42
  Ryan: Uh this you know, the podcast is called Activating Curiosity because we just need people to be energized um to to start taking those action steps, as you just said, like be ready to take on that change.
• 1:06:55
  Ryan: So I will be sharing all of your information, um, links to your to your books and ways they can reach out to you, should they want to connect and follow you on Instagram, uh, LinkedIn, and other platforms.
• 1:07:07
  Ryan: So I appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing your story and your message.
• 1:07:11
  Angelo: Thanks for having me on, Ryan.
• 1:07:12
  Angelo: I appreciate what you're doing too, because we need more people like uh like you in the industry challenging uh you know the mindset and driving this change.
• 1:07:20
  Angelo: So thank you too.
• 1:07:21
  Angelo: Appreciate you.
• 1:07:22
  Ryan: Well, good.
• 1:07:23
  Ryan: I'm sure we'll be talking soon.
• 1:07:25
  Ryan: And uh thanks for being on.
• 1:07:27
  Ryan: So that is the episode with Angelo Suntrees.
• 1:07:31
  Ryan: Um phenomenal conversation.
• 1:07:34
  Ryan: Someone who has spent an entire career in construction.
• 1:07:38
  Ryan: He told you his backstory of where he thought as a child he'd go some other direction, but ended up heading into the construction world.
• 1:07:48
  Ryan: But he saw a problem.
• 1:07:49
  Ryan: He saw a problem worth diving into while still maintaining an entire career.
• 1:07:56
  Ryan: And I know we've talked a lot in some of these podcasts about problems that seem too big.
• 1:08:02
  Ryan: Like, I can't get involved with it.
• 1:08:04
  Ryan: It's just too much.
• 1:08:04
  Ryan: And we talked about it on the episode.
• 1:08:07
  Ryan: But here is one person who's saying, I value this so much that I'm willing to give effort into trying to solve it, knowing that it is going to take time.
• 1:08:21
  Ryan: It's going to take more than him, it's going to take more than myself in this podcast.
• 1:08:27
  Ryan: That it's going to take, you know, in the US, eight and a half to ten million of us taking steps, finding action steps that we feel could be beneficial if we dive in and start taking this, in order to start connecting the humans to one another and start connecting the humans to the change and having that empathy and compassion that we talked about, without it being this, you know, area where we tense up, or the area where we feel like, well, that's just not how construction works.
• 1:09:02
  Ryan: Well, why doesn't it work that way?
• 1:09:04
  Ryan: I mean, things have changed.
• 1:09:06
  Ryan: Situations have changed.
• 1:09:08
  Ryan: Life will always evolve.
• 1:09:11
  Ryan: And that's part of it, is that just because the situation is changing doesn't mean that you're becoming irrelevant.
• 1:09:18
  Ryan: It just means that you're human and that you don't recognize something because it's it's out of the abnormal.
• 1:09:26
  Ryan: It's not something that you're used to.
• 1:09:29
  Ryan: So this is going to be a consistent conversation on this podcast.
• 1:09:35
  Ryan: Focusing on mental health, focusing on our mindsets, focusing on the way we're going to address some of the biggest challenges in the industry.
• 1:09:44
  Ryan: And what Angelo is is focused on in writing his books, you know, as an author, spending that time, I recommend, you know, taking a look at those, reading them, listening to them wherever and however you you want to do that, and sharing it with your team.
• 1:10:01
  Ryan: But he gave you some action steps.
• 1:10:03
  Ryan: He said, hey, look, have one conversation with one person.
• 1:10:07
  Ryan: Try to find out more.
• 1:10:09
  Ryan: And him and I talked about it after that there's got to be something bigger that we're doing.
• 1:10:14
  Ryan: Um, that there's more that we want to do as individuals to address this.
• 1:10:19
  Ryan: So I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
• 1:10:23
  Ryan: It was uh it was a longer conversation than I think we could have gone on for for a very long time.
• 1:10:28
  Ryan: Um and I'm sure that we'll continue it in some other form or fashion.
• 1:10:33
  Ryan: Um so until next time, I hope you continue to look at those challenges that you've been looking at for a long time and you break them down.
• 1:10:43
  Ryan: Break them down into steps that you can start to take, realizing that it isn't going to be instant, that this change isn't going to happen overnight.
• 1:10:51
  Ryan: But that you find some way to address them and that you continue to find ways to activate your curiosity.
• 1:11:02
  Ryan: The Activating Curiosity Podcast is brought to you by Connected Building Connective Coaching part of the Curiosity Building Experience.
• 1:11:10
  Ryan: If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe.
• 1:11:13
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• 1:11:15
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• 1:11:19
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• 1:11:29
  Ryan: Until next time, keep leading with curiosity.