Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Todd Nettleton: Inspiring & Convicting Examples Of Bold, Persecuted Christians

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Todd Nettleton: Inspiring & Convicting Examples Of Bold, Persecuted Christians · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
• 0:10
  defending biblical Christianity, no topic, off limits.
• 0:16
  And now, here's your host, David Firazzo.
• 0:20
  Friends, welcome a prospective check today.
• 0:23
  I always love these podcasts when we get to catch up with Voice of the Martyrs Todd
• 0:28
  Nettleton.
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  He's the Vice President of Message for VOM USA and host of the Voice of the Martyrs Radio
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  Show just this past weekend did a program on Afghanistan.
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  Of course, his most recent book, When Faith Is For Bidden, we've talked about that in the
• 0:44
  past.
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  Great stories.
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  In fact, it talks about 40 days on the front lines with persecuted Christians, kind of an
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  insider's report on their lives.
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  So excellent book that came out a couple of years ago.
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  And brother, it's just good to have you back.
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  Thanks for your time today, Todd.
• 1:00
  Well, thank you for having me.
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  I've been looking forward to our conversation.
• 1:04
  Me too.
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  You know, so we talked about this before, but in America, we can get kind of spoiled.
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  And kind of what do I want to say?
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  We take our freedoms for granted, especially our religious freedoms.
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  America is the anomaly in the world or one of them.
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  And we don't understand to, I don't think as you can explain a better, we don't understand
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  really what a lot of other countries, Christians and other countries go through.
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  And that's why we bring you on.
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  Before we dive into some of the recent places you want to discuss, anything like an overall,
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  you know, recap on where you've been or what's been going on lately with you.
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  You know, I think like you say, we tend to sort of take it for granted that, hey, I'm
• 1:49
  going to go to church this weekend.
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  Nothing bad is going to happen at my church.
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  The police aren't going to come in.
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  My pastor's not going to have been arrested.
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  So we won't have to worry about him being in jail.
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  We just assume that that's how life is.
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  And I think for a lot of us, we just assume that's how it must be to follow Christ, wherever
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  you are in the world.
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  As you say, we are the minority having that freedom and having that ability to worship
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  together and to have the scriptures and to share our faith with the people around us.
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  We are the minority in the global body of Christ.
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  And so we need to remember our brothers and sisters who are paying a price.
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  And we can choose to be in fellowship with them.
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  And that's really the ministry of the voice of the martyrs is to build that fellowship
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  between Christians in the free world and Christians in hostile areas and restricted nations.
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  So friends, I forgot to give you the website persecution.com, the main website.
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  Also on Facebook, the voice of the martyrs USA, YouTube, they're on their two voice of
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  the martyrs USA, a lot of great videos there.
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  And Instagram and I think a couple other places.
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  But Todd, the first story, you sent me some bullet points, I always appreciate those.
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  And you've done some great radio programs, your book covered a lot of different people.
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  Last time I think we caught up with a few people, kind of like a follow up on some people
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  you wrote about when faith has forbidden.
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  But let's start today with China.
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  I don't remember talking a lot about China with you in the past because I know there's
• 3:20
  an underground church there.
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  And I'm sure there's many stories that you hear about.
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  So what's the update that you can share about any evangelist over there in China?
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  Well, we just got a story from our partners at China Aid Association of an evangelist.
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  His name is Chen Wang Shang.
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  He was sentenced last summer.
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  So summer of 2024, he was sentenced to 19 months in prison.
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  However, he has been released.
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  So he got out in April and out of prison, praise the Lord.
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  He was very thin.
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  It was clear that he hadn't eaten well while he was in prison.
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  But he was filled with joy.
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  Here's the interesting thing about our brother Chen.
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  So he gets out of prison in the morning, gets released early.
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  And he is literally out on the streets doing street evangelism that afternoon.
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  So he left the prison, hugged his wife and went to work in ministry.
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  And his story, though, is really what drives him.
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  He is a former drug addict that God has rescued from addiction.
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  And his heart is to go to more addicts and say, hey, God rescued me.
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  He can rescue you too.
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  And so his passion is to do that.
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  In fact, he shared that while he was in prison for the last year,
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  he prayed with 300 other prisoners.
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  He had the chance to secretly baptize three of them.
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  So I think our brother Chen, what an example.
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  And I'm humbled even to tell his story because I don't have that fire.
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  But his attitude is, listen, God saved me and God is giving me a ministry.
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  And if God's ministry for me that day is in jail, well, then fine.
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  I'm going to talk to people in jail.
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  And if I'm not in jail, then I'm going to talk to people out on the street.
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  Wherever I am, I'm going to talk to people about Jesus.
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  I'm going to share what he's done for me and that he can bless.
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  He can transform them as well.
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  Again, challenging to me.
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  I hope challenging to our listeners and our viewers that, wow,
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  that is a powerful example of what it looks like to be passionate about Jesus Christ.
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  Thanks a lot, Todd, convicting us right off the bat.
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  She's, all right, we're done.
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  So what was he arrested for, preaching the gospel?
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  He was arrested for evangelism and it actually has been arrested a number of times.
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  So at one point he was locked up for 10 days and then 10 days again and then 15 days.
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  And finally sentenced to 19 months.
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  The other interesting thing when they held his trial last summer,
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  if you would have sort of come to the courthouse and not known what was going on,
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  you would have thought that they were trying an al-Qaeda member in the courthouse.
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  They had blocked off the street in front of the courthouse.
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  They had armed troops all around the building.
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  It was like, this is lockdown mode.
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  And well, what's going on?
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  Who's on trial?
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  Well, this street evangelist, this former drug addict who's sharing the gospel with drug addicts.
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  And you would think, as I have thought about him, you would think the Chinese government would say,
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  wow, here's this guy ministering to drug addicts.
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  He's helping people overcome addiction.
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  Let's pin a medal on him.
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  Let's thank him for the service that he's providing to our society.
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  But no, since he's doing that in the name of Jesus,
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  he is considered an enemy.
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  He's considered a threat and they lock him in prison and treat him like a terrorist.
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  Like I'm convicted by his story, too.
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  If you got out of prison, if he had gone away for a month and just said,
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  hey, I'm going to lay low, I'm going to kind of rest up, eat some good food.
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  If he had gone away for a month, we all would have said,
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  well, brother, you deserve that.
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  That's great.
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  The afternoon he walks out of prison, he's out doing ministry.
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  Again, what an example.
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  What a challenge for us.
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  And your challenge now is to top that story.
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  Because I don't think it can be done, Todd Nettleton.
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  So I'm not sure I can either.
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  That's just amazing.
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  Oh my goodness.
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  He gets out of prison.
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  He's probably malnourished to some degree.
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  He goes right back out.
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  That's conviction.
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  That's like as Paul said, I am compelled to preach the gospel.
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  So I forgot to mention at persecution.com,
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  the voice of the martyr's website.
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  People can get one of Richard Wormbrand's books or one or all three,
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  explain the deal there where he can donate and get a book.
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  Yeah, we have a new newly released editions of what we're calling the Wormbrand Essentials.
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  So Pastor Richard Wormbrand and his wife Sabina were the founders of the voice of the martyrs.
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  He was in prison in communist Romania for 14 years.
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  She was in prison for three years.
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  And when they came to the west, they founded voice of the martyrs.
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  So we have these three books that tell their story.
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  So tortured for Christ and in God's underground by Pastor Richard Wormbrand.
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  And then the pastor's wife written by Sabina telling her part of the story and her story.
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  And we're just inviting people.
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  Hey, give a gift to voice of the martyrs.
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  Get a copy of these books and be inspired.
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  Again, we talked about the inspiration of our brother Chen in China.
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  This is also that kind of inspiration.
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  Somebody who was willing to go to jail for 14 years.
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  And similar to brother Chen, actually Pastor Richard came out of prison
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  and immediately went back to work in the underground church.
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  And he knew, yes, I'm probably going to go back to prison if I do that.
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  But he said it is worth it to follow Jesus.
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  It's worth it to share him with other people.
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  So this is more inspiration that you can get from the voice of the martyrs and
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  really inspiration from the Lord with the example of our persecuted brothers and sisters.
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  I just hope that everybody watching and listening right now along with myself
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  will pray a little bit more often that we would be led by the spirit and sensitive
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  to his leading when it comes to sharing the gospel with people
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  that need to hear the truth about Jesus.
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  So Todd, let's go over to India.
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  There's something that I want you to clarify.
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  India, according to the US Commission on International Religious Freedom,
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  India has been recommended to the State Department
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  they be named a country of particular concern
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  as a religious freedom violator.
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  Were they taken off the list?
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  I mean, you think that they were on that list already.
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  Can you explain that?
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  That's a great question.
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  It's like, how are they not on the list already?
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  You know, what happened?
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  You're right.
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  They are not on that list.
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  And you know, it's an interesting process.
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  And I'm thankful that I don't live in Washington,
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  DC that I'm not sort of in that sort of world.
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  But the US Commission on International Religious Freedom
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  makes recommendations to the State Department.
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  And they have one thing they look at, which is religious freedom.
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  Hey, how are religious minorities being treated in this country?
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  They send their recommendations over to the State Department.
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  And then the State Department has to decide, you know, what to do?
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  Are we going to say, are we going to follow their recommendation?
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  Are we going to identify this country as a country of particular concern?
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  But over at the State Department, obviously,
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  they have more than one topic that they're looking at.
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  So they're not just thinking about religious freedom.
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  They're thinking about trade.
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  They're thinking about military alliances.
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  They're thinking about, you know, maybe other countries in the neighborhood
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  that they want this country's help against.
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  And so they have to kind of weigh out all those things.
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  And India has been a country where absolutely there is religious persecution.
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  There is persecution of Christians.
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  There is persecution of Muslims.
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  There is other persecution of religious minorities in India.
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  But also there are billions of dollars of trade that is happening between our two countries.
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  We want India as an ally in the competition against China.
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  And so there's that to try to weigh in.
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  And so India has been left off of that list of countries of particular concern.
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  Now, you may have heard we had an election last November.
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  And there is a new administration in Washington, DC.
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  There is new leadership at the State Department.
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  Since the last time they issued their list of religious freedom violators.
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  And so one of the big questions in 2025 is,
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  is the State Department going to receive this recommendation differently
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  than they did under the previous administration?
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  Are they going to be willing to offend the Indian government
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  and shine a light on those religious freedom violations?
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  And you know, if we wait, the State Department does their list in the second half of the year.
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  So we're waiting to see kind of how they will rule on that.
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  But India is just one.
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  They also recommended Nigeria and Vietnam and Afghanistan be added to that list.
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  You know, you look at those countries and it's kind of the same thing.
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  Like how is Afghanistan not on the list?
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  How is Nigeria not on the list?
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  So it's going to be really interesting when that State Department report is issued later this year
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  to see how it is different under the new administration than it was in the past.
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  Well, I hope most believers in Christ and those who are supportive of Christians around the world
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  are following policy and procedures rather than personality in the White House,
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  meaning President Trump.
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  Because in his first term, he was a friend of the persecuted Christian around the world.
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  And he stood up for religious freedom.
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  He did a lot of good there as far as what I read and understand.
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  Can you tell us anything different Todd or anything you want to add to that?
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  Because I'm really thankful for what the stances they took in the first term.
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  Yeah, I am thankful as well for the light that they shown that the State Department actually
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  started doing an annual meeting at the State Department about religious freedom.
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  That happened under the first Trump administration.
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  He also spoke up very boldly on behalf of Pastor Andrew Brunson, who was imprisoned in Turkey.
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  And so there were some good things that we see there.
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  I would like to see more about the national Christians.
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  Like he talked about Andrew Brunson, but he didn't talk about other Turkish Christians who
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  have faced persecution or Afghan Christians in Afghanistan.
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  We'd always like to see more attention to our brothers and sisters who are suffering for Christ.
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  But ultimately, we know that our citizenship is in heaven and their citizenship is in heaven.
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  And so we trust that God is faithful and that he will care for them,
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  regardless of who's in charge in Washington, DC.
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  Okay, friends, we're going to take a brief pause.
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  We're with Todd Nettleton, voice of the martyrs persecution.com.
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  When we come back, we're going to talk about the Middle East.
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  We'll go over to Africa and even talk about Uzbekistan.
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  That's next.
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  Hey friends, we've got a relatively new YouTube channel.
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  So far so good.
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  We haven't violated community standards much.
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  Maybe they're just not paying attention.
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  But anyway, it's kicked off in January.
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  You can follow us at World View Matters, David Fiorazo.
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  It's growing a little by little, but it's great.
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  So thank you.
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  Todd Nettleton, voice of the martyrs, Uzbekistan.
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  I've got a question.
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  They apparently have a new law that imposes fines or even jail time for parents
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  for illegal religious education, for teaching their kids about
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  maybe Christianity, the Bible, anything else.
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  Well, it's interesting to you have to kind of understand the context.
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  So Uzbekistan is in Central Asia.
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  One of their neighbors or nearby countries is the country of Afghanistan.
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  Who's in Afghanistan, the Taliban?
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  What's in Afghanistan?
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  Radical Islam.
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  And so the government of Uzbekistan is looking at that and saying,
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  whoa, we don't want that kind of radical Islam to rise up in our country.
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  That would be a threat to our government.
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  And so they've passed this law that forbids religious instruction
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  or having minors under 18 years old at a religious gathering.
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  Say a mosque, say a church service.
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  Well, they might be targeting radical Islam and saying,
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  hey, we don't want the Taliban to grow up here.
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  But this law applies to all religions.
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  And so our Christian brothers and sisters are also looking at this and saying,
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  wait a minute, so we're not allowed, according to this law,
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  we're not allowed to have children at our worship services.
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  And the way the law is written, even parents are thinking,
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  what about at home?
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  What if I read the Bible to my child at home?
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  The law does not say that's protected.
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  And so parents are looking at this and saying, okay, what do we do?
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  Where do we go from here?
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  How seriously do we take this?
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  I'll tell you, David, I was actually in Central Asia last summer.
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  And one of the churches we went to had built a separate building
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  for all of their children's activities.
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  And the reason for that was to protect against the law a lot like this one.
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  So that if the government ever came in,
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  they could say, no, we have our church services in this building.
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  That's where the adults are.
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  That's where they're allowed to be.
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  All of the children's activities happen in a completely separate building.
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  So that they could say, no, no, no, that is not a church service.
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  That is not a religious gathering.
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  That's just where we care for the children while the church is meeting.
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  So even to the design of their facilities,
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  the way they have to build their buildings,
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  they are factoring in this law.
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  And now Uzbekistan has passed a very similar law.
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  And Christians there are looking at it and wondering, okay, what, what do we do?
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  How do we respond to this?
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  What, what happens?
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  Especially, and like I say, even in our own homes,
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  can we read the Bible to our children?
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  Can we raise up our children in the way they should go?
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  And does that put them at risk of getting taken away from us?
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  So that, help me understand.
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  I understand how in public or at their church,
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  how I don't approve of it, obviously,
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  but they would want to keep the children from indoctrination of religion,
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  but at home, in their own, in the privacy of their own homes.
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  How do you enforce that?
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  How do you, you know, do you have to do it?
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  You have to whisper if you're a parent, you know?
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  You know, that's a question for these parents.
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  It's like the way the law is written, that would be illegal.
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  But like you say, well, who's watching me in my home?
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  Who's gonna, but at any point the government could come in and say,
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  hey, you're breaking the law.
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  What you're doing is illegal.
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  We're going to remove your children from your home.
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  We're going to arrest you.
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  We're going to put you in prison.
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  So it's not so much that they will enforce it at least immediately,
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  but it's the fact that it is on the books.
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  It's the fact it's kind of the threat hanging over the head of the believers.
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  What, what are you going to do knowing that if you're teaching your children
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  at any moment, the government could come in and say,
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  you're breaking the law, you're going to jail?
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  Wow, okay, since we've got to move fast, we're already down to 10 minutes.
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  Africa, let's go over to Africa and find out what's going on.
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  The tax, it seems like it never stops there.
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  It seems like the corrupt governments, the very hostile towards Christianity.
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  Tell us more about what you have for Africa.
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  Well, I have spent some time in the last week with the leaders of our work in Africa.
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  And actually, they'll be coming up some interviews on Voice of the Martyrs Radio with those leaders.
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  And we talk about, and one of the things I think for people to understand about Africa
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  is just the level of violence that is involved in some of these attacks.
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  When a group of radical Islamists comes into Burkina Faso or in the Eastern Democratic
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  Republic of the Congo, recently in DRC, there was a church where 70 bodies were found inside
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  the church and an attack that killed 70 Christians and left them in their church.
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  And one of the things as I was talking to our leader who oversees our work in DRC was
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  even to try to verify that attack and figure out, okay, how do we help those families?
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  Because 70 people were killed in the church, but then the other Christians just fled.
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  They ran for their lives. And so it's like, how do we get help to them? Where are they?
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  Are they in displaced person camps? The level of violence is really shocking.
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  And the other thing we talked about that will be in these radio interviews is just how little
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  attention the world pays. It seems like, you know, something that happens in Africa, it has to
• 19:58
  be a huge scale before the rest of the world will pay attention. But you have a huge scale
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  attacks in DRC. You have them in Northern Nigeria. You have them in Burkina Faso.
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  It's happening all over the continent where Christians are being specifically targeted
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  by these Islamist groups. They're looking for pastors. They're attacking churches.
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  They're kidnapping Christians. That kind of attack is common in so much of Africa right now.
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  So I recently read something about Franklin Graham, I think, did, and this, help me understand
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  this. I'm looking at the map on your website persecution.com about hostile or restricted nations
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  and continents. And I'm looking at Africa, Ethiopia, Ethiopia, Ethiopia is a hostile nation. And
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  over in this story, they were once under communist rule, but it says, this is from last month,
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  430,000 Ethiopians gathered to hear Franklin Graham preach the gospel. And I guess I'm just
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  amazed that they allow that. Can you explain a little bit more about how that works?
• 21:07
  Yeah, one of the things that the way we classify places where Christians are persecuted,
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  we talk about restricted nations in hostile areas. And the big difference, as you point to,
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  the big difference is who are the persecutors? In a restricted nation, it is the government that
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  is persecuting Christians. It's against the law to have a church service. It's against the law
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  to import bibles. You get arrested by the police. You get put on trial in a court and you get
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  sentenced to prison. That's a restricted nation. In a hostile area, like Ethiopia, the government says
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  it's okay to be a Christian. The laws protect that. The Constitution may say there's religious
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  freedom. But within that country, you have places where there are terrorist groups. Nigeria is
• 21:54
  another example. Nigeria, the government says it's okay to be a Christian, but you have Boko Haram,
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  that is attacking churches, attacking Christians. So it's not the government that is persecuting,
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  but it's the government that is not stopping persecution. But the actual persecutor is an
• 22:10
  Islamist group or a terrorist group or other, sometimes it's your own family members. If you come
• 22:15
  to faith, it's your family who will persecute you. So that's really where we draw the line between
• 22:20
  restricted nation and hostile areas. If you look at who is the persecutor in that environment,
• 22:26
  and that's how we differentiate those two. Great. Thank you. That explains it for me. Thank
• 22:30
  you very much. Let's go now to the Middle East, actually. And brother Nathan, you recently had a
• 22:38
  conversation on VOM radio with him. Tell us about that. I would so encourage you. Go find this
• 22:45
  episode of Voice of the Martins Radio. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Nathan
• 22:49
  is an American, but he has worked and administered in the Middle East for a number of years. And he
• 22:55
  was recently arrested. He does street evangelism. He talks to Muslims, strikes up conversations,
• 23:01
  tries to find a way to pray with them. Hey, oh, you're having trouble with your wife, man. Can we
• 23:07
  pray about that right now? And he's had amazing success in planting gospel seeds. But last year,
• 23:14
  he talked to a Muslim who was offended and got angry with him and reported him to the police.
• 23:19
  And Nathan and his two Christian co-workers ended up in prison. Thankfully, they were not sent
• 23:25
  at one point. It looked like they could be in prison up to 15 years in the country where they were
• 23:30
  at. Thankfully, they were not held that long. But Nathan told two stories that really showed
• 23:37
  how God sustained him while he was in prison. And he said there were two key things. Number one,
• 23:42
  he was there with other Christians. His two co-workers were with him. They were able to encourage
• 23:47
  each other and pray together and really lift each other up through this time. He said, if they
• 23:52
  had separated us, I don't know how it would have gone. But the fact that we were together was
• 23:56
  such a key thing. The other thing he said, and this is really amazing. He said, on the third day that
• 24:01
  they were in prison, they decided to have communion in their prison cell. And he said, we took some
• 24:06
  of our bread and we took some of our water. And he said, you know, Jesus turned water into wine. So
• 24:11
  that was good enough for us. We took our bread. We took our water. And we decided to have communion
• 24:16
  on that third day. And he said, as they gathered together and had that amazing ceremony, honoring
• 24:22
  Christ's sufferings and really taking part in his sufferings, he said it was like Jesus himself
• 24:28
  walked into that prison cell and took all of their fear, all of their questions, all of their
• 24:34
  confusion. Jesus just took that out and said, hey, I got this now. Nathan said it was such a
• 24:40
  significant thing for them that from that point forward, they did that three times a day.
• 24:45
  Every day that they were in prison, they just wanted to take communion. They wanted that presence
• 24:49
  of Christ to be there with them. And he said, every time it was like Jesus came, he was with us.
• 24:56
  And he said, you don't have to worry. I've got this. And thankfully, again, thankfully, they
• 25:00
  were not sentenced to a long prison term. But please go listen to that story. It's an amazing
• 25:06
  testimony of God's faithfulness. And he also talks about winning Muslims for Christ. And even
• 25:12
  some of the Muslims they were in prison with, they had the chance to plant some gospel seeds
• 25:17
  along the way. So just I want to commend that story to you. And again, remember, how important
• 25:24
  is it for us as brothers and sisters in Christ to be together in our hardship, to encourage
• 25:29
  each other, to pray together? I don't know, you know, I'm not in a prison cell. You're not in a
• 25:34
  prison cell. But all of us could probably use a little bit of encouragement. And all of us can
• 25:38
  be challenged to give encouragement to our brothers and sisters in Christ right around us.
• 25:44
  Amen, brother. And Jeff brought up that at least on the YouTube channel for you guys. It was
• 25:49
  from last month. You can go watch that with brother Nathan there. It reminds me of a couple
• 25:54
  scriptures, Todd. I one of them for I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
• 26:00
  to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. That's Romans 8, 18. And one in your
• 26:07
  notes, the email you sent me, we see Jesus clearer in times of suffering. That's what brother Nathan
• 26:16
  said in that interview, wasn't it? Yeah, that's what brother Nathan said. And you know, it's interesting
• 26:21
  because I find this in my own life. Like I want to experience that presence of Christ. But I don't
• 26:27
  want to be in a jail cell. I don't want to suffer in order to experience that. And I think
• 26:32
  I think a lot of us can identify with that of just the the suffering, but but somehow and Nathan
• 26:38
  said this so well, somehow in suffering, we are able to see Jesus more clearly than in our normal
• 26:45
  everyday lives. Okay, so if I go to persecution.com, I'll be able to find the podcast there and listen
• 26:51
  to a VOM radio where I'm just looking for is it under be inspired? There it is. VOM radio
• 26:59
  under be inspired at persecution.com. We appreciate you, Todd. It's always a perspective check.
• 27:05
  I'm still remembering the first story you shared about Chen in China. Oh my goodness. How long was
• 27:12
  he in jail? He was in jail a little less than 12 months, but he was sentenced to 19 months. And
• 27:20
  one of the parts of the story I don't know the answer to yet is why they let him go early. But he
• 27:24
  took advantage of it and went right back to work. And he was getting too many saved in there. I don't
• 27:29
  know. Maybe so. All right. Brother, thank you. God bless you and your work. Appreciate your time.
• 27:35
  Thank you so much for having me. You're most welcome. Friends persecution.com. Thank you for sharing
• 27:41
  this podcast as well and praying for us. God bless you and as always, keep speaking the truth about
• 27:47
  things that matter.