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From Freak Show to Full Monty: A Discussion of the Career of Mat Fraser · Living Loud and Proud: Disability Conversations

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Welcome to the Living Loud and Proud podcast,
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brought to you by Disability Pride Pennsylvania.
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If you need a link to the transcript for this
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episode, please visit our accessible website
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at www .disabilitypridepa .org slash podcast.
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And now, here is your host. Hey, welcome to the
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Living Loud and Proud podcast. Today's episode
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is From Freak Show to Full Monty, a discussion
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of the career of Matt Fraser. I'm your host,
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Phil Rosen. I'm here with my co -host, Ray Decahorton.
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How's it going, Ray? All right. How's everybody
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doing today? And today I thought, you know, let's
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take a little bit of a detour from what we've
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been doing with the history and everything that
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we've been doing on the podcast. And let's talk
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about something in pop culture. a disabled actor.
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Ray, what do you know about Matt Fraser? Do you
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have any insights? Ah, okay. The subject is Matt
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Fraser. Okay. I really didn't know too much about
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Matt Fraser until a few years ago when I started
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watching the show Loudermilk. Oh, yeah. I was
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also watching another show, His Dark Materials.
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Matt Fraser was on both shows. And by the way,
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on Loudermilk, he's my most favorite character.
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I did look up some stuff about him, found that
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he was an actual musician. He's an all -around
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artist. Saw some things about how he's into the
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whole alt lifestyle and everything. Alt art and
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all that other stuff. I really don't know too
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much, but I assume that you researched him a
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little bit more in depth than I did. Yeah, I
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think that's probably a fair statement right
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there. So let's get right into it. He was born
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in 1961 or 1962 in Colchester, Essex, with phocomelia.
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This is a condition that stemmed from his mother
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taking thalidomide. during pregnancy. Do you
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know anything about the history of thalidomide,
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Ray? No, not tell me. Okay. So the side effects
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of thalidomide were not fully known at the time.
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I believe it was a painkiller that was marketed
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as like a safe thing for pregnant women to take,
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which of course there weren't that many at the
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time. And it was used widely in Europe at the
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time. And the side effects, which became known
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after a few years, were used as a way to justify
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the expansion of the FDA's review process for
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pharmaceuticals here in America. So there's kind
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of an interesting little, like, anecdote there.
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The condition, phocomelia, I'm sure many people
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don't really know what that means broadly. So
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it means seal -like limbs. And you know a little
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bit about Matt. Yeah, the character he played
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in American Horror Story was the seal freak,
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the seal guy. Yep, that's correct. And so his
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arms are very short. I saw somewhere that they're
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no more than six inches long. I don't know how
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accurate that is, but it's what I could find.
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OK. I mean, a little longer than that, but not
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too much. Right. And I actually have a quote
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here from Matt about his journey in school. So
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the first month in a new school was a voyage
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of painful discovery for me. At first, kids would
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be intrigued. They'd be too nice and overfriendly.
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They would rush up and demand that I played football
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with them. And I want to make sure that for all
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of the Americans out there that we're talking
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about soccer here, not American football. I feel
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like I have to make that distinction every time
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I mention it on the podcast. And, of course,
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I mean, what do you think his reaction was to
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all of this? Knowing Matt Frazier, he probably
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was a little. Not feeling that, I'm going to
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say, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
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he obviously, you know, knowing his personality,
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pushed back on this. And, of course, this leads
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to, well, what else? Bullying. Right. But over
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time, he did make friends with one of the hard
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lads, quote unquote, and became part of the crew.
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He became accepted. And this is a theme that
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I believe has just kind of been throughout his
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life. He's been able to make friends fairly easily.
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But, you know, it always starts off a little
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weird for people with physical disabilities,
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right? Because, like, people other them so easily.
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Well, anyone with disabilities, really, but as
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we all know. Another quote from him was, I was
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very isolated as a kid. I was the only disabled
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person I knew. I was certainly the only thalidomide
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person I knew. And so what do you think like
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about this in general? Like, you know, this kind
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of is a theme that's common for a lot of people
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with disabilities, right? I mean, kind of this
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isolation from others in their community or other
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disabled individuals, of course. But, you know,
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at the age of 15, He went on a holiday to Corfu
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with 35 other teenagers with conditions linked
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to thalidomide. So what do you think happened
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at Corfu? I have no idea what happened at Corfu.
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Well, obviously, it was a transformative trip.
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Right. I mean, you know, you're around your people
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for the first time in your life. And of course,
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it's it's going to be a very eye opening experience.
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You know, obviously, one of the things that a
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lot of people with disabilities may deal with
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is the struggle to be accepted by your peers.
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Right. You know, the normal like 13 to 16, like,
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you know, you may want to date people or whatnot.
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And you may feel like you're last in line. Right.
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Right. So this, of course, was something that
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they, you know, 35 of these people this age,
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they're all coupling up. Right. The other thing
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that was kind of validating for him, and he's
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kind of talked about a little bit, is the common
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ways in which certain tasks were done. So like
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for a lot of people with, you know, phocomelia
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might have trouble with things like putting socks
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and shoes on because, you know, their limbs are
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a little bit shorter. Right. And they all have
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like their way of doing it that maybe is similar
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to the others. Right. So this trip, of course,
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you know, allowed for some social catching up.
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So we talked a little bit earlier about like
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his musical career, like you touched on it in
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the intro. Do you know that much about it, like
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in depth? Not in depth. I mean, like I've watched
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performances of his. And of course, there was
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the drumming performance that he did on Louder
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Milk. But I haven't seen too much more, you know,
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aside from, you know, various clips I saw on
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YouTube. Right. Well, so between 1980 and 1995,
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he was a drummer with multiple rock bands. This
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includes the Fear of Sex, the Reasonable Strollers,
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Joyride, the Grateful Dub and Living in Texas.
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I saw somewhere, and I couldn't really confirm
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this, that Living in Texas had a number one single
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in Italy. Okay. Like in the 90s. Unfortunately,
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it's not very well documented. He also performed
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at the opening and closing ceremonies of the
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2012 Paralympics held in London, which, I mean,
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of course, why not? Right. Do you remember the
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opening ceremony's performance at all? Like,
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have you seen it? Because I think I remember
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Disability Pride years ago, like, broadcast a
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little portion of it. No, I wasn't aware of that.
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Okay, well. Something with Coldplay? Well, yeah,
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so the closing ceremony he performed with Coldplay,
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but the opening ceremony performance was with
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Gray Eye. theater companies, Reasons to be Cheerful,
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playing Ian Drury's Spasticus Autisticus. Oh,
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okay. And I'm sure you've at least heard that
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song before. Yeah, yeah. I've definitely seen
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it somewhere. Yeah. And so one of the interesting
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things that I found was his kind of perspective
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on his music career where a lot of people didn't
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think that he could really perform, which of
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course is like central to that Loudermilk episode
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we keep talking about. Right. And so when he
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performs, you know, decently, people think, of
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course, he's like the greatest drummer in the
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world, right? Because they're like, they had
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no expectations. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I remember.
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Yeah. He was perceived on the curve. But he actually
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is a decent drummer, though. He's definitely
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better than some established ones. Right, exactly.
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And so I kind of want to talk a little bit about
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kind of him moving on from his drumming career
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and some of his activism a little bit here. you're
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aware that he is an activist, but do you know
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the extent of it or anything to do with it, really?
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I mean, I'm aware of some of it. Like I said,
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when I became a fan of his, did a little bit
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of research on him, but please expound. All right.
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So in 94, which was right around the end of his
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drumming career, or at least active drumming
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career, He woke up to the disability rights movement,
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quote unquote. As you're aware, he, of course,
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was furious about the apartheid that is still
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somewhat present today in society. Yeah. You
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know, it's much lesser than it was in the 90s,
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which is really interesting for me as someone
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who's still relatively young that things, attitudes
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have changed so much in my lifetime. Yeah. But
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the other thing that he, of course, is furious
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about is the lack of accountability for pharmaceutical
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companies about the effects of thalidomide. Yes,
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yes. And, you know, maybe thalidomide is another
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thing that we'll actually talk about a little
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bit because the history of thalidomide is actually
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quite in -depth and fascinating. I just got to
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make sure that it's not too upsetting or depressing
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for people. Gotcha. because we want to uplift
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people as much as we can. The other thing that
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I want to talk about is sort of his activism
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from the perspective of him being represented
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in media, which is a huge component of all of
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this, right? Yeah. So he's, of course, acted
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in several high -profile shows. He starred in
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one of the first advertisements featuring a disabled
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actor. Do you happen to know what the advertisement
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was for? No, what was it for? Virgin Mobile.
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So it was mobile phones, telephones, cell phones.
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Gotcha, gotcha. Unfortunately, like many other
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things in this episode, I couldn't find the advertisement
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online anywhere or a description of it, really.
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But there was a mention of it in a Guardian article,
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and he was actually talking about it. So here's
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a little quote. It was better for social attitudes
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toward the disabled than it was for my career.
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It was the first time a disabled person was used
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in a mainstream advert. Advertising is about
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aspirations. No one aspires to being disabled,
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but they do aspire to have the strength that
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disabled people need to carry out a normal life.
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I love that. That's clever advertising. Oh, isn't
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that great? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And
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he also noted in the same interview that the
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kids across the street still stared at him, but
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it was for a different reason. It was because
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he had a little notoriety. He was becoming famous.
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So they were like, oh, we have a little celebrity
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here, which is great. And now I kind of want
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to move on a little bit to his acting career,
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which, you know, you probably know a little bit
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more about than any of the other topics we've
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thus far discussed. Well, you know, certain roles
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like there was something I was aware of that,
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you know, that I was kind of geeking about that.
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He's played two characters named Ray, you know,
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one of the materials character, although they
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called him most of the time, Raymond. though
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and you know i'm not a raymond but still it's
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a ray well yeah uh raymond garrett of course
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in his dark materials great uh trilogy by the
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way anyone who hasn't read philip pullman's his
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dark materials definitely you should get on that
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that's the golden compass yep guys if you don't
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know but anyways so one of the first things he
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did um on his way out of drumming was to join
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the gray eye theater company um do you do you
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know a little bit about the company like do you
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want to talk about that no but was that the one
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where he uh he did his one -man show that was
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uh uh based on the uh the uh the freak show guy
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Stanislaus Berant, I think is how it's pronounced.
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Oh, you're talking about Freak Show, I believe.
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Seal Boy Freak, that's what it is. Back in 2001,
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I believe it was. Yeah, Seal Boy Freak. I actually
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am unaware of whether that was with Grey Eye
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Theatre Company or not. Okay. He was in a couple
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of productions with Grey Eye. So Grey Eye Theatre
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Company is Europe's leading disabled theatre
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company. He was actually inspired to leave drumming
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after watching the production of Ubu. His first
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leading role with Grey Eye Theatre Company was
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the part of Dr. Prentice in Joe Ordon's What
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the Butler Saw. And the play is a two -act farce.
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Dr. Prentice is a psychiatrist. My understanding
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is he's trying to seduce a prospective secretary
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in an interview and convinces her to become undressed.
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And then his wife walks into his office at the
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time and he has to hide her. Right. Yeah. All
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right. So, yeah, after what the Butler saw, some
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of his subsequent theater roles in the 90s included
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the Group K production of Marisol and the title
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role of Johnny Saul at the Croydon Warehouse.
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Do you happen to know what his first major TV
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role was, Ray? No. No? It was ITV's 1993, excuse
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me, 1998. Wow. Three -part World War II drama
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series, Unknown Soldier. Okay. And a few years
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later, he appeared as the Seer Colchis in the
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TV miniseries, Helen of Troy. I believe that
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was on BBC One, and it's based on the Iliad by
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Homer. So this is Odysseus and his whole trek
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home after Troy. Like the Battle of Troy. Gotcha.
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The next big role I kind of want to talk about
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is Castoffs. Do you know anything about this
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show? No. Okay. It was a 2009 mockumentary kind
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of dramedy series satirizing reality TV on Channel
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4 in the UK. What do you think it might be about?
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Oh, I have no clue. Well, it follows a group
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of six disabled people who were sent to a remote
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British island for a fictional reality show.
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Each of the episodes concentrates on one of the
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different characters. I believe, you know, there's
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someone with dwarfism, a paraplegic person, a
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blind person. Obviously, Matt Fraser played a
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thalidomide. affected individual, someone who's
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deaf, cherubism. Like, there's a whole range
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of them. And this show actually is responsible
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for phrasing, coining a phrase, spacking up.
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Do you have any idea what that might be? No,
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what? All right, well, so you're familiar with
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the phrase blacking up, right? I'm not sure I
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am. All right, well, so the phrase blacking up,
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as you might guess, means a non -black person
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playing a black character. Okay. In a TV show
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or a movie, right? Gotcha. So spacking up similarly
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is a non -disabled person playing a disabled
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character. Got it. The line that apparently coined
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it in the show is, spacking up is the new blacking
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up. That made me chuckle a little bit when I
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saw it. You know, a famous contemporaneous American
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example of spacking up would be Artie from Glee,
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who was played by Kevin McHale. Artie in the
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show is a wheelchair user. Kevin McHale, of course,
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is not, which is actually interesting that he
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was in a Ryan Murphy show after Ryan Murphy did
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this with Artie. Gotcha. You know, given Matt
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Fraser's ideas about disability, of course. Right.
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So do you happen to know anything about his play
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that he wrote? Thalidomide, a musical? No, that
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I didn't even hear about. Okay, well, in 2005,
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he wrote and produced Thalidomide, a musical.
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Damn, I am having trouble with that. It tells
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the story of a love affair between Thalidomide
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survivor, Glynn, and a non -disabled woman, Katie
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Crawford, who was played by Anna Winslet. Kate
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Winslet's sister, by the way. Oh, okay. I was
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wondering. Yeah. Of course, Matt Fraser stars
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in the play. You want to guess how Winslet won
21:30
the role? No, how, how, how, how? You know what?
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I did a little bit of a cheat. I saw that she
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was an old one. Yeah, you could say that. So
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she won the role in part because she didn't shy
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away from an audition request to mimic Frasier
21:53
himself. I think that perfectly exemplifies where
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Matt is at. Right. And whatnot. I did find an
22:06
interesting criticism of the show from a counselor
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of Wolverhampton. Malcolm Gwinnett. And he said
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to exploit people in this way is frankly sick.
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And I think it's kind of an interesting sort
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of look at it when you, when you think about
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like, I, maybe I'm doing a little bit of assumptions
22:29
here, but I haven't met, you know, I imagined
22:33
that Malcolm Gwinnett was not a disabled individual.
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Right. And so he's making a judgment call. Yeah.
22:42
About a play produced, written, directed, everything
22:46
by an individual talking about their own story.
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I mean, Philomide the Musical was basically a
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cartoonish version of, you know, Matt Fraser's
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life. Right. So, I mean, yeah, maybe it may have
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made Jerry Springer look tame, as Matt said at
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one point. Right. It's interesting to hear people
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who aren't necessarily affected by these things,
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get upset about things that they don't really
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understand. Yeah. Yeah. Trust me. In June, 2011,
23:26
he appeared in the RTA one soap opera fair city
23:31
playing Esther's son, David. And then in 2012,
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of course there was the Olympics and Paralympics,
23:39
which. We already talked about a little bit of
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his involvement in that. He also appeared as
23:48
part of like the general thing with Britain.
23:53
They had this thing called the Cultural Olympiad.
23:55
Do you have any idea of what that is? No, no.
23:58
What is that? So it was a series of like media
24:02
and. Other types of performances that were tied
24:06
to the Olympics in one way or another. Kind of
24:09
showcasing the cultural aspects of Great Britain
24:11
and the UK. And part of that, he appeared in
24:17
Kate O 'Reilly's stage play, In Water I'm Weightless.
24:21
Okay. As we talked about a little bit earlier,
24:27
he was in American Horror Story Freak Show. Hey.
24:31
Yeah, yeah, playing the illustrated Seal. Yeah.
24:36
You know what's so funny? Remember earlier I
24:38
was asking if his show that he, his stage play,
24:44
his play that he had done, which was called Seal
24:47
Boy Freak, you know, which is based on the life
24:50
story of Stanislaus Berant, who went by the name
24:54
Cee -lo. It's so funny. I can't help but wonder
24:58
if that's... You know, part of the reason why
25:02
that character was created in American Horror
25:05
Story Freak Show, you know, because I'm not sure
25:09
if a lot of people are aware, but a lot of those
25:13
different seasons were actually based on actual
25:17
real individuals, you know, different American
25:19
Horror Stories anthologies or urban legends,
25:24
you know. And yeah, I just wonder, you know,
25:28
if that had something to do with the decision
25:30
for it to include that character, you know, and
25:33
of course, casting him to play it. You know,
25:37
that's all I have to say on that subject. I think
25:41
that could be definitely part of it. I'm also
25:43
certain that it was just like, you know, with
25:47
Ryan Murphy, he does a lot of research into the
25:50
things that he produces that are based on real
25:54
life. characters or real life people. Yeah, inevitably
25:57
CeeLo was very, you know, was very popular, you
26:03
know, on the sideshow circuit. Right. And, you
26:08
know, I mean, you know, Lobster Boy was another
26:10
freak that was very famous at the time, too.
26:13
Right. CeeLo was around. So I imagine that it
26:18
might be a little column A, a little column B
26:20
here. Yeah. They were already thinking about
26:23
it. It was already percolating. And then, oh,
26:25
wait, this guy already did this thing. Yep. Let's
26:29
try and reach out. Yeah. And also, like I said,
26:32
including that character, you know, as one of
26:36
the freak show characters for that season, that
26:40
anthology season. I have to admit, I'm not a
26:44
huge fan of American Horror Story. So I have
26:46
like basically no recollection of any of this.
26:51
Right. But, you know, I do remember it happened.
26:57
I do remember seeing the promos for it. Yeah,
26:59
yeah. And, of course, we kind of talked a little
27:04
bit about Roger Frostley. Yeah. His character
27:08
on Loudermilk. So let's talk a little bit about
27:12
Frostley. Like I said, I mean, he was one of
27:18
the main characters I looked forward to seeing
27:20
in each episode. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I,
27:24
you know, I started watching the show. Oh God,
27:28
it would have been like two or three years ago,
27:30
like in the middle, like towards the end of the
27:32
pandemic, I found it on Netflix. Right. And I
27:37
just, I got hooked instantly. So Loudermilk is
27:41
a show that stars Ron Livingston as Loudermilk.
27:47
He's a counselor for addiction support group
27:52
i think it's any substance i believe is covered
27:55
by it um and frosty is a recovering addict i
28:01
believe alcoholic specifically but yeah yeah
28:04
it was alcohol yeah yeah and uh one of the episodes
28:08
brilliant episode um features a subplot of frosty's
28:13
character being conflicted about a beer commercial
28:15
his former band is asked to perform in uh The
28:20
name of that episode right now is, I believe,
28:23
Where's the Beans? Okay. Fourth episode of the
28:29
entire show. So let's kind of talk a little bit
28:35
about this. There's a subplot that's heavily
28:37
featured, as I said. Do you remember anything
28:42
about the scenes surrounding the commercial filming?
28:46
Yeah, but hold on. Tell everybody about it. It's
28:50
very inspiring, that scene. Yeah. So in the process
28:54
of filming the commercial, his band shows up
28:57
and the producer and director are just like,
29:01
what the hell is this guy? Are they, like, joking?
29:03
Like, are they pulling a prank on us? Like, this
29:07
guy can't drum. Why would he be able to with
29:10
those tiny arms, right? And Loudermilk, of course,
29:15
overhears this and is just like, I don't feel
29:17
good about this anymore. And he walks up to Frost
29:21
Lee, and he's just like, you know, you don't
29:23
have to do this, man. Like, I know you were,
29:26
you know, I was saying, oh, you know, just make
29:29
the money, make your bandmates happy or whatever.
29:32
But, like, let's move on. At this point, a sound
29:38
check is called for. And, like, the producer
29:42
and director are trying to pull him, like, before
29:44
they get to the sound check. Yeah. Obviously
29:46
it doesn't work. And he does a soundcheck, performs,
29:51
and they're just like, oh, my God, you got to
29:53
do this. You got to do this. We're going to feature
29:54
you, blah, blah, blah. And he's just like, eh,
29:57
screw you guys, and walks out. Like I said, such
30:02
an inspiring scene. I showed you I could do it.
30:08
Mud in your eye or face or whatever the saying
30:11
is. And went to stepping. Don't always judge
30:16
a book by its cover. Right. In 2017, he was cast
30:23
as King Richard III in the Shakespeare play.
30:26
I knew about that. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe
30:29
he said something about it was an example of
30:31
a disabled person playing a disabled character
30:33
because Richard III, I believe, was famously
30:36
disabled. Right. And as we were talking about
30:41
a little bit earlier in 2019, he was. cast as
30:44
Raymond Van Garrett in the BBC One adaptation
30:47
of His Dark Materials. Great show. Great show,
30:52
great source material. In 2020, he wrote and
30:58
curated the BBC Four disability series Crypt
31:01
Tales and played Jim Bell in episodes one and
31:04
two of Silent Witness series 23. Didn't really
31:11
have a lot of time to look into Crypt Tales too
31:13
heavily, and I actually haven't watched it myself,
31:16
but my understanding is that it talks about real
31:19
-life stories of disabled individuals and their
31:23
experiences. Got it. And in 2023, he played a
31:33
minor role as the hospital administrator Steve
31:35
in ITV's Maternal and appeared in Sister Boniface.
31:40
mysteries in series two episodes five and ten
31:42
playing clement rugg um and then uh the most
31:48
recent thing that i kind of saw uh was in 2024
31:52
he played the role of daedalus in the netflix
31:53
series chaos now ray we we both saw that in his
31:58
filmography and we both kind of looked at it
32:00
we were like huh i don't care about that one
32:04
right like knowing this yeah right Those things
32:10
got clipped, huh? Okay. I see the irony in what
32:13
you guys are doing. Okay. And you know what?
32:16
Once again, I did watch that show. By the way,
32:20
it was not renewed. But, yeah, once again, he
32:26
was great in it. You know, his character was
32:29
great. The cast was great. But, yeah, once again,
32:33
I enjoyed his scenes. You know, a few others
32:37
too, but yeah, it's a shame that we won't, you
32:40
know, see another season of that. Yeah. You know,
32:46
it's funny because like I kept seeing it, it
32:48
kept getting served to me when I still had a
32:50
Netflix access. And I just kept going like, I
32:55
don't know if I'm going to watch it. And now
32:59
that I'm like, oh, I kind of wish I had. Not,
33:04
not. because of him but it was just like i didn't
33:06
know it was about greek mythology and i'm i'm
33:08
definitely a little bit of a greek mythology
33:10
nerd same here but don't put yourself through
33:14
it because it ends on the cliffhanger like usual
33:16
or for netflix shows that get cancelled you'll
33:20
only be highly upset but um yeah and you know
33:28
he's he's done various other things as well um
33:33
You know, the freak show stuff we kind of touched
33:36
on with CeeLo and everything. Yeah. You know,
33:40
there were a couple documentaries he did and
33:43
whatnot. And he's done some pantomime as well
33:49
with his wife here in America. Yeah, yeah. I
33:54
saw how, like, they were very heavy on that whole
33:57
alt art scene in New York. So. Yeah, when I pitched
34:04
the idea of Matt Fraser with Ray, I was like,
34:07
you know, I kind of want to talk about someone
34:09
who, you know, is a disabled actor, but it's
34:14
not just like kind of a sort of like the typical
34:19
narrative surrounding the disability as part
34:23
of it. Like it's very much like they're getting
34:25
the roles and of course they're getting the representation,
34:28
but. it's not because of the disability, it's
34:34
like in addition to, right? Yeah, exactly. And,
34:40
you know, Matt was, of course, a great example
34:46
of that. So, there you have it, folks. We had
34:55
a discussion on a very admirable actor. With
35:00
admirable characters that he's played. And so
35:05
we bring this episode to a close. And thank you
35:09
for listening to us talk about, you know, Matt
35:15
Fraser, who we've been geeking out over for like
35:18
a couple of years now. Maybe a few years, I guess.
35:20
You know, I mean, at our age, you know, time
35:22
flies. And yeah, so everybody. you know, Phil
35:30
and I say goodbye and close it out tonight. Yeah.
35:36
Bye everyone. Please visit our accessible website
35:40
at www .disabilitypridepa .org. You can find
35:46
us on social media at Disability Pride PA on
35:51
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