Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.403: The Woman Behind The Wall Of Art: Phyllis Cohen, Legendary Global MUA, Founder of Face Lace

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E.403: The Woman Behind The Wall Of Art: Phyllis Cohen, Legendary Global MUA, Founder of Face Lace · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Diablo 4 has arrived.
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• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back to Speaker Anarchy.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is your host, Ecta.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And today I have such a wonderful guest.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very honored to be interviewing them.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I really feel that we don't have enough uh conversations with really truly world-renowned and professional makeup artists and you know to get their real opinion about the industry, the their their tips and tricks, you know.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to the founder um and creator of Facelace, Phyllis Cohen, who is also a world-renowned makeup artist.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, fellas.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited and honored to be hosting you.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Ecta, thank you so, so much.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't um begin to say how honored I am in return.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I had a wonderful um few days listening to some of your other um interviews.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I I just so loved it.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait to go back and hear more.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm I'm greatly, greatly honored myself.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I would love to get started, Phil, with you telling us all about your your you know your journey, what led you into makeup and um beauty, and where did it all begin?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was always drawing as a child.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I always drew faces, and anyone who would sit for me, I would draw their portrait.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And as I grew older, I um I started to collect Vogue magazines when I was in my early teens.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I grew up in Vancouver in Canada, so there wasn't a lot of scope.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we're talking about sort of the end of the 70s now.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I was I knew who people like Jerry Hall were, I knew who David Bailey was, I knew who, you know, some designers and I was sort of aware of the whole Studio 54 um phenomenon.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I didn't really know how to access it at all.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And people said to me, Well, you should go study fashion illustration because you're such a good artist.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, okay, that sounds like a good idea.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I did some research and I found a really excellent school in California called Art Center.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um they had a very kind of old-fashioned method of teaching.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was very, very in-depth, not like art schools now.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we had uh classes on anatomy, we had classes on perspective, we had classes on color theory, we had even classes on lettering where we had to um paint the same two words for three months, which I will never forget.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Mine were California grapes, and we had to paint these letters, which were only about three-quarters of an inch high.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um we worked on them for three months using like double zero and triple zero brushes.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can kind of imagine the kind of training that that would be how excellent! What kind of amazing training that is for a makeup artist, you know, having to do perfect lips or perfect eyeliner or whatever.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also um we were really taught about um the structure of the face and we learned the face in terms of um the planes of the face, and um we did a lot of portrait classes.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I really, really learned a lot about um faces and makeup through that.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I never went to art school.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: I really just learned from there.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so cool.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was the most fantastic training, honestly.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh there was also a really excellent fashion photography department at the same school.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I used to go down to the fashion photography students um department and see what the um students were doing, and eventually I plucked up the courage to ask them if I could do makeup on some of their class assignments.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the um the school has such a good reputation that the model agencies would actually send new models there to get headshots.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um through that way I was able to work on great faces, and um because I could uh pursue the photographers, I would get photos from them.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I graduated, I had two portfolios, you know, one for makeup and one for illustration.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the fashion photography students continued to use me.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I had a really um fantastic introduction into the world of makeup artistry, which um, so we're talking now about 1980.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't it wasn't a very well-developed field, you know, there were hardly any agents.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, makeup artists were doing editorial, they were doing, well, in LA, um, there was actually very little editorial, but you know, I I did a little bit of it.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did um some music stuff.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but everyone kept saying, you know, you need to go to Europe because my style was quite kind of wild and incorporated a lot of illustration into it.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, even when I went to New York, when I did finally decide I was gonna leave LA and go to Europe, I stopped off in New York, and even there they said, no, what you're doing is way too wild.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta go to Europe.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I did.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I mean that's it's it's really interesting to me that you um, you know, you started with this really technical, technical background, you could say, you know, and training, because I find that um, you know, from the previous interviews I've done, makeup artists, you know, it's it's that training, that level of um technical skill that really for them I think sets them apart.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it it's really about that human anatomy, like you had mentioned.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that um, you know, I still remember I I remember the the big papers with the the face on it, you know what I mean?
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you learn like where to contour and where to and those were wonderful because I think that it gave consumers a way to really look at makeup as this professional technique, you know, it's not just you know, anyone does it.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: I mean anyone can do it, but you know, in a way for themselves, but but to look at it from that angle, it's so interesting um to analyze it as an art form because it's it's just it's just phenomenal.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's really a face is you know, it's a three-dimensional canvas, you know.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: We we talk about painting and we talk about you know all these things, but those are not three-dimensional.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Those the you know, the face is moving, changing, skin changes, everything.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I just have so much respect for um, you know, the work that you do and and that level of training because I think that that's really the difference between like a really bad makeup look and and just something that works for you and it fits for you.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I think it's a really, really wide open field, and I think it's great that there's so many different aspects of it.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um it may be worth just mentioning that of course, um, of course, when um I started, you know, back in the 1980s, there was no retouching, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: You could have to remember that it's a really important aspect.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that I could do um maybe hopefully more perfect lines and more um precise blending and stuff than the normal makeup artist because of my drawing and painting background, that also really set me apart as well.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because um, yeah, uh retouching just didn't exist.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I did get a reputation for being able to do uh very precise work, and that really helped me a lot.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, Phil, I want to know all about face lace because this is iconic.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, honestly, like I um when I, you know, was reading into it, looking into it, I was just like, this is such a huge like stamp that you've left behind, you know, for the makeup industry.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's just it's an iconic thing to have created.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's an iconic, you know, just wonderful, wonderful technique.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love for you to talk to us about that and how it began and where you came up with the concept and all the good stuff.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, thank you so much for asking.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I actually was playing around with stick-on makeup since the 80s.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um in the 80s, well, I finally ended up in London, and that became my sort of creative home because I came to London uh at the height of the New Romantics, and they really understood this like crazy elaborate illustrative style that I had developed.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in the first few years, um, I met Sandra Rhodes, who's just fantastic.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you may know that she does these beautiful silk screen prints, which she incorporates into her designs.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she asked me to key the fashion shows for her for about five years in the 80s.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I really wanted to find a way to incorporate her beautiful patterns into the makeup.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: But of course, back then, you know, uh you had like 20 models, um, you had um about five makeup artists, and so there just wasn't time to individually paint each model with um, you know, really, really intricate lines and everything.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I began to play around at home using latex and beads and crystals and fabrics and all sorts of things.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I did um make for each fashion show, they took about like eight hours each, um, but I made um like loads of stick-on makeup designs.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I always had this idea of creating something.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I mean, it came from a personal need first because being uh very obsessive about things being perfect, I was always looking for ways to be able to create really perfect makeup um designs really quickly and that would last.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so it's something I I sort of played around with ever since the 80s.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then in about 2010, I saw other makeup artists doing fashion shows and I could see that they were beginning to stick things on the face again.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, oh, you know, hmm, if ever there was a time to, you know, create what I had been developing for the last 30 years as a business, it was now.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started to do research and um also um for about 10 years previously, I uh had also been getting a lot of work as a body painter, also because of my illustration background.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there were there's always always a struggle professionally to be able to do the most perfect results in the shortest time possible.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's like whenever I was asked to do a makeup job, they always said question one was how long is it gonna take?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, actually that was question two.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Question one was like, can you do it?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then question two was how long is it gonna take?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so um for a lot of the jobs, um the time that I had to do it in was virtually non existent.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I had to come up with a method to um be able to do like really complicated, precise makeup work quickly.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And probably one of the biggest challenges I had was um when I did a poster for Pink Floyd and um it was uh six backs, and each back had a different album cover painted on it.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: With that, you did that?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: I have that painting hanging in my room.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Are you kidding?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the biggest Pink Floyd fan.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Are you serious?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: That is amazing.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but let me tell you the background story that um so that was um, you know, art directed by a wonderful, amazing art director called Storm Thorgerson, who had a company called Hypnosis, and they did all the Pink Floyd artwork.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I this was I think the third job I had done with him.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I when I went to talk with him about this job, he said, okay, Phyllis, this is what I want you to do.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: These are the own covers, you know, we have it on six backs.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now the problem is we only have the location for eight hours, so you only have six hours to do it.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of thought, oh my God, you know, how am I gonna do that?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because of course he was really a perfectionist.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So he said, Um, you know, I want it to be perfect, but you only have six hours.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, okay.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I remembered I had a friend in LA that did silk screens, and I thought, so if I could work out a way that, you know, I'll do a painting of each album cover and then I'll break down the each painting into like a series of color layers, and then do it like a silk screen technique.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I did.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: I did a painting of each of the album covers, I broke it down into colors, and I made stencil layers for each color layer.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, some of the backs had only like eight, but some of them had like 40 different like stencil layers.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I got five other makeup artists, so we all worked in teams.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, for each back, it had its own um stencil layers, which was a clear adhesive, a clear acetate.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, actually a clear vinyl because it's a bit more flexible.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and each color was pre-mixed, and it was like layer one, layer two, layer three, layer four.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so we worked very, very systematically, and we did end up actually doing it in six hours.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And by the time we were finished, we were like, oh my god, I can't believe we did it.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that is one of the most iconic, like just pieces of art, I think, that has to do with music for me.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I remember when I first saw that, I was like, this is I I need this in my life.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm gonna I'm literally one of the biggest Pink Floyd fans you will ever meet.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's just amazing.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: How exciting! That is really, really wonderful to hear.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's so interesting.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I sorry, I'm really bad at going off on tangents.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, they told me to come back, you know, if I go like exploring off in some wilderness.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is she talking about?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, you know, it's really interesting for about 10 years afterward.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how these men found my email, but I would get emails from men saying, Who were those who were these models?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'd have to explain this, and I'm really sorry.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: We were really in a rush.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't really have time to get to know the models.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: We were just like painting like crazy.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it was really interesting that men were really fascinated, I guess because they were only looking at the back of them.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, yeah, isn't that funny?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: But there's still a personality to each of the models.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's why that paint, that's why that specific piece is so legendary because there's still a personality to each of the girls.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you guys know uh what I'm referencing for all of our listeners, I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna post this as part of um the feature, but like this paint, like if you look at it, like each of the girls has like a personality that like shines through, even though you're looking at their back because of the art on their back.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like you know, you can see it like you know, for for the model who's representing the wall, you know, you can see she's more clean cut, she's got a bob, she's like, you know, and and so these kind of little details, like for people who actually can appreciate makeup, which is a whole different topic.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: I really want to get your opinion on.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if you can appreciate like how much work goes into body art and you know, just anything, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like it it it's just fascinating.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's really mind-blowing because those those uh you know uh representations on the backs of actual uh women and and people, like that evokes the exact feeling of each of those albums.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: It really does.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, really gonna send them the emails over to you from now on.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Please do.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be like, this was a this was a piece of iconic art.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Don't ask questions, just accept it.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: No wonderful.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I really want to get your take, Phyllis, because I want to know what you think about the industry right now.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've seen it all, you've worked with the best of the best, you've done you know such great work.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: How do you, when you look back on this you know, journey um from you know earlier and now looking at the beauty industry and how much like social media has come into play, how much influencers have come into play.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I feel like everyone is a self-proclaimed makeup artist, you know.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And like what what do you think when you see that?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like just you know, uh a general overview, maybe.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of good and bad.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um I I think it's really opened up the idea of what makeup can be, and that's great because I think, you know, when um the sort of hierarchy of what makeup art was was solely dictated by people in magazines, that was kind of great.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: It had some aspects that were really fantastic and really exciting because you had almost a curated um understanding of who were the top and who was the middle, and you know, um the people who were considered the best got there because of really, really hard work and and being um celebrated by other people who were also celebrated.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it created a sort of hierarchy of these are the people at the top because they've worked their way up there working with you know other people who are considered the greatest in their fields.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and so there was a sort of um a structured hierarchy of of professionalism kind of like exactly, yeah, exactly.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so uh what I believe or what I see on social media is that um it's become very democratized, you know, which is kind of great, you know, that's kind of fantastic.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh uh there's a lot of more factors that come into play, I think, about personality and how somebody is on film, um, and what kind of a performer they are, um, to um the democratic whole world that's out there.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's a very different system of judging who's the best, if you know what I mean.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it it it's it's kind of great.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that there's some good aspects because you know, I know as a makeup artist, and of course I have a lot of friends who are makeup artists, there was almost this sort of glass ceiling that um existed in the fashion world that if you didn't know the right people, um you know, uh it could really not work well for you.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I and and it did require a certain amount of conformity, which I was always not very good at.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, really I've never been a conformist.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's such an oxymoron for such an artistic field, you know, like how yeah, yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, sure, you could be creative, you could be super creative, but there was a certain way that you had to sort of behave.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I was never very good at at um not just being myself, you know.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and fitting into a box kind of thing.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense, you know, it makes sense.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And right now, honestly, like when I look at YouTubers or TikTokers and I look at the makeup they're doing, I'm not gonna lie to you, like, and I have no makeup background.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: So just as a third person looking at this content, I'm not knocking it, you know.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, I think there's a definitely a space for it too.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like you said, Phyllis, but I just feel like the amount of publicity and the amount of like, you know, hype that influencers get from makeup that's just not practical is like it's it's causing a problem, you know what I mean?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like it's creating so many products in this industry that just don't need to be created.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna walk out with a foundation that's so full coverage that you literally can't see my port.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know what I mean?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not gonna do that.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why would I do that?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going into work, like that makes no sense.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, go ahead.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: I remember watching uh one um somebody, an influencer on Instagram, and she was doing a live, and somebody said, What's the best concealer?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she just rattled off like one thing.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and I was like, Oh my god, wow, you know, and I'm not even that sort of product fanatical.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, you know, if somebody asked me what's the best concealer, you know, I want to know what kind of skin type they have, what color, like what kind of circles, like how they would use it, you know, do they want it to be heavy, do they want it to be thin?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like a really big discussion.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: I would never just blur it out, say this is the one that was like, wow, yeah.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean it's it's like that with a lot of things.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, for example, I'll tell you honestly, one of my personal issues I had with makeup for a long time was I couldn't get any kind of uh first of all, I can't contour fills.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you watch me contour, you would start laughing at me because I'm literally like bor paint on my face.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it looks like.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I mean, you know, I was trying to obviously do what everybody does, which is go on YouTube, learn some techniques, you know.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for me, it was uh specifically powder because every powder I would use, it was very, very heavy and it was too cakey for me.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I would go on there and I kid you not, I remember this very clearly because I spent hours looking up YouTube videos, and there was not a single influencer that was able to recommend something for me for my show.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Shade of my complexion as a woman of color that wouldn't, you know what I mean, would do what I wanted to do.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it was so mind-boggling because some of these accounts had like five million followers, you know, you know, 10 million followers.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting here thinking, I'm like, if you're really a makeup guru, that you should know options, right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like you should, because if I go to like if I were to ever run into you, you know, aside from the podcast, and I was like, oh my God, Phyllis, please give me a tip about you know, powder, you would look at my skin and be like, okay, try this one.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this might be good for you.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: But but that's because you know from experience.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's because you played with different types of skin textures and different types of application methods.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I get frustrated, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm like, these are the these are the professionals that I feel like, you know, deserve to be really highlighted.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I actually had made a point, and and I want to bring bring this up because it's so important to me, is that the new celebrities, in my honest opinion, are the makeup artists, the people behind the scenes, the haired, you know, hair artists, the stylists.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, those are the real celebrities, in my opinion, you know, because that's what's making the persona that we're falling in love with, you know, those are the people behind it.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I just I think that, you know, we we really as an industry we have to celebrate the necessity of that professionalism that you mentioned and really talk about the people that have done work that no one else has done, like you, you know, you've you've really seen makeup from the inside, you know, from the backstage end.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: So there's definitely worse than that.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and going back to one more thing I wanted to say, I'm sorry I'm ranting, but like Yeah, go, go, rant.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: One more thing I wanted to say was when you mentioned that you used to collect Vogue magazine um, you know, snippets, that is so it hit home for me so much because that's how I grew up.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Even someone who, you know, wasn't going into art, but like I would fall in love with these beautiful campaigns and these beautiful, you know what I mean?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh my gosh, I want my makeup to look like that, you know.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's what I like.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what inspired me, like for me as a person, you know, just what I wanted.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's so that era was so awesome, you know, to have these, like, yeah, have these magazines.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, what do you what do you see now though, Phyllis?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like with the magazine, you know, that's that's another thing, is like, you know, everything's going into digital now, right?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, how does that work, you know, when it comes to like magazine shoots or like you know, features and stuff?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you still do those or have you kind of yeah, I don't really have time.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: I found it was too difficult to run facelace and work as a makeup artist at the same time because of course I want to give each one my all.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so like um, I probably the last few things I did were were some celebrities.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I did um something with my great friend um Ali Madabi, who's a fantastic photographer artist, and um, we did something on Kylie Minogue.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and my friend Ali he loves old Hollywood glamour, and he really wanted me to transform Kylie Minogue into Marlena Dietrich.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that was a fantastic challenge.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so the way that I start is um I I got lots of pictures of Kylie Minogue looking straight on, and then I put tracing paper over uh that photograph and I worked, I basically did a portrait of Marlena Dietrich over a uh printout of Kylie Minogue's face because um when I uh flew to LA to do it, I only had an hour and a half, and there was like you know, that again, time constraints, always time constraints.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I need to needed to work out exactly what I needed to do without having to faff around.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I did it.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that was really, really exciting, you know, and it really worked, and she really did transform into Marlena Dietrich.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow, that's so cool.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: God, you're the coolest person ever, Phyllis.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I love that.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you like you know, that's oh my gosh, you can't tell you how much respect I have for a true artist.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I really can't express it.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like art to me, it's like you know, you have to know how to make what you're trying to make.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you just have to do it and you have to have vision and you have to have the skills, obviously, but you have to have that vision.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like people, you're not you can't certain on certain levels you can't be taught that you either have it or you don't, kind of thing.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, you know, when I see individuals such as yourself that have done such amazing work, it's like that's something that I feel like is underlying in all of you, is that it's there's a spark, you know, there's a there's a level of talent that exists that can't be taught.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think in from an education standpoint, I love what you had said about your training because I wish more colleges would do that, honestly.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: I wish people had that opportunity to go to schools, learn proper, you know, drawing, painting, whatever it requires to perfect your hand, you know, because like it's a profession.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's a profession.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Makeup artistry is a very coveted profession.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want to enter it like that, it's for all my listeners, you know, and if you're an inspiring makeup artist, you should train yourself to be one, you know, to be a professional.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: But with that being said, fellas, I want to get your advice for all of the budding makeup artists that do want to, you know, they want to do it right.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Any words of wisdom you can share with us.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think um, you know, when I was listening to what you were saying and what you were describing, to me, it's it's finding your passion.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for me, um I really love faces.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I I was adopted, and I think that because I've never had, and so are my brothers and sisters.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: So um I've never had a face around me that look like me.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that gives me this real yearning about faces.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, I have almost a very fluid relationship to faces.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I'm totally fascinated by them, absolutely fascinated.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And and so um for me, the the fashion the fascination of faces um makes me want to learn everything about them.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, that may be a completely different approach for every other makeup artist.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they may really love color, or they may really love skin, or they may really love eyebrows, or you know, whatever it is.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important to find your passion.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is the thing that just absolutely fascinates you about faces and start from there and then really build on there and make it like a really, really serious um lifelong uh yearning to just know more and get better and and and really go for it.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, because if you just approach it like you're gonna tick boxes, yeah.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, you'll probably do okay, you know, you'll you'll be competent and you know your career will sort of get take you to a certain level.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're really passionate and you really, really love it, you know, people pick up on that and they they they will get into that and they will go with you on that journey because they they you know, everyone loves passion and everyone loves when people are really, really enthusiastic about what they do.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh my style isn't for everybody, that's for sure.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I really scared a lot of people off, you know, when um the 80s was really wild and I was sort of riding this wonderful wave of super creativity, it all ended as all fashion trends do.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I be I became a sort of like makeup pariah.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone was like, no, don't use her, you know, she's gonna like do something really weird, you know.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Don't, yeah, don't no.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that was when I started to do body painting.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it, you know, things come around again, you know, yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they always will.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh how fashion is.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I find that I find that to be interesting because you know, I've seen so many people um utilize, you know, face art and just really kind of draw, you know, drawing on like certain lines or shapes or just you know, just glamming up their look, you know, in a different kind of way.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a really, really cool trend.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think that we should all um really kind of pay attention to that because I I've you know I watch some artists on YouTube, I'll give you another example, is like the the real the painters of the generation, you know, and they're doing like the Halloween makeup or they're doing all of that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I always am sitting in awe of their of their skill because I'm like, that's beautiful, you know, to understand.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's definitely, you know, um, I think if someone can create something that is so fitting, like, you know, for the face, and it can it can change based on face shapes, like you know, which is created with face lace.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's huge, you know, that's a really big thing.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that in the industry, we're so used to saying one size doesn't fit all that we forget that there's still things that can be staples, amazing, you know, ways to learn, amazing ways to just kind of you know amp up your look a little bit, stand out a little bit more.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a huge advocate for that, you know.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't like the uniform everyday look.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's wearing it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's like what makes you unique?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're just yeah, you look like a zombie, like yeah.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, uh one of the um interesting things I learned when I um is I went back to college in the 90s actually and really uh studied makeup from a sort of perceptual science point of view, uh, which I found absolutely fascinating, you know, how the brain analyzes beauty and attractiveness and all that stuff.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the most interesting things I learned was that um how we remember faces.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we remember faces like caricatures.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't remember what's perfect about them, we remember what's imperfect about them.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love that.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're all striving to like have like a more perfect nose and you know, perfectly proportioned lips and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that's actually like not how we remember how we remember faces.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I just I think that that is such a healthier way to think about your face.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like be memorable.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be perfect, be memorable, and don't worry about you know what's imperfect about your face because that's actually what people love.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's what people fall in love with, and that's what people remember about you.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's just great.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's it's a beautiful, beautiful message.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with you.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think that we all have to become more comfortable in our skin, and and that's really what body positivity means is you know, you do you kind of thing.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about how many people can you get to conform to this one way of being body positive.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's about whatever makes you feel good.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I absolutely embrace your imperfections because that is what makes you memorable.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Phyllis, this has been so awesome.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: I loved chatting with you.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're definitely a master of your craft, and I'm so excited that we had a chance to chat.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: And for everyone listening, I hope you guys learned from the episode like I did.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you have any questions for Phyllis or anything questions about face lace, please leave them in the comment section.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'll definitely pass them along to Phyllis's team.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: This has been such an honor to host you.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Ecta.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I really, really enjoyed it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, I think I did go all over the place.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, but I hope you yeah, and um yeah, I really, really appreciate you asking me because I I feel very honored to be in your magnificent list of interviews.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: That means the world to me.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: And for everyone listening, please make sure you guys rate us, ring, you know, give us a rating, write us a review.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Helps us a lot.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for listening, and I will be back next time.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 33:35
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• 33:40
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• 34:23
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• 34:35
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• 34:40
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