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Grit: Is Your Child's Grit Score High Enough for The Ivies? · Other Peoples Parenting

• 0:00
  Hello, everybody.
• 0:01
  Welcome back to another episode of Other People's Parenting, where we read parenting books and review them for you.
• 0:07
  I'm Skylar Hurwitz, amateur parent, and this is my mom, Karen Quinn, New York Times best selling author and founder of Habit Coach and Testing Mom.
• 0:15
  Hello, Mom.
• 0:16
  Hi, Skylar.
• 0:17
  How are you doing?
• 0:19
  Well, I'm okay, but I'm a little flustered.
• 0:21
  We've had a very hurried morning this morning.
• 0:24
  We've had a hurried morning because my commute got about three hours longer very recently.
• 0:29
  I'm up at five, getting the dogs ready, and then I put the dogs back, then I get ready, then I get the baby, and then the baby and I get on the train for two hours, and then I
• 0:39
  wrestle with a velociraptor on the Metro north for two hours until I come here.
• 0:43
  And now I'm here.
• 0:44
  Oh, you look good, though.
• 0:47
  Thanks.
• 0:47
  Considering what you've been through.
• 0:49
  Thank you so much.
• 0:49
  I just did my beat.
• 0:51
  Cause I knew I was like, if I do my makeup before I get on this train, I'm gonna get off the train looking like a clown.
• 0:56
  Oh, okay.
• 0:57
  Okay.
• 0:58
  You look fine.
• 0:59
  It's fine.
• 0:59
  Thank you.
• 1:00
  It's fin.
• 1:01
  It has been a busy morning, though.
• 1:02
  It has been a busy morning.
• 1:04
  And all I did was wait for you and be nervous because.
• 1:07
  Is she gonna make it?
• 1:08
  Is she not gonna make it?
• 1:09
  Well, let me tell ya, here I am barely on time.
• 1:13
  Okay, well, that's good because we have a really good book to talk about.
• 1:16
  Yeah.
• 1:16
  Yeah.
• 1:17
  I loved this book.
• 1:18
  Right?
• 1:18
  This book.
• 1:18
  Me too.
• 1:19
  In fact, let me hold it up.
• 1:20
  Let's hold it up.
• 1:21
  Okay.
• 1:21
  This is the book we're talking about.
• 1:23
  Grit.
• 1:24
  Grit, which is a classic, but go ahead.
• 1:27
  Classic.
• 1:28
  So this is a book in the vein of Carol Dweck's Mind.
• 1:34
  And it discusses this idea of grit and resilience and this quality, this ineffable quality that we all want to try and instill in our children for so many reasons.
• 1:45
  First of all, because it is we, I think, as a society are predisposed to assume that talent is what gets people the furthest, when in reality it's this other quality grit that anybody can have if you decide to
• 1:59
  build it and.
• 2:00
  And work it and use it.
• 2:02
  Right.
• 2:02
  And we're gonna talk through everything she says in this book.
• 2:05
  Many of us think we know what it is.
• 2:07
  Like, I thought I knew what it was until I read the book.
• 2:11
  And I think the book really does bring it to life with lots of stories and examples.
• 2:16
  Yes, totally.
• 2:18
  Yeah.
• 2:18
  So anyway.
• 2:19
  Well, so all right, I'll just kind of start with the overview, as I usually do.
• 2:24
  Give us the overview.
• 2:25
  Okay.
• 2:26
  So the author is Angela Duckworth.
• 2:30
  She's a psychologist.
• 2:31
  And she argues that long term success and high achievement depends much more on a combination of deep passion and steady perseverance.
• 2:42
  And we actually have to understand what that really means, because it's not exactly what I thought passion meant or perseverance.
• 2:50
  It's like, oh, it's not quite what I thought that meant.
• 2:52
  But we'll learn about it.
• 2:54
  She calls it grit, and that's more important than innate talent or natural intelligence.
• 3:01
  And she gives us lots of stories about people who have exhibited grit, how they got it.
• 3:08
  And so she starts out at the beginning.
• 3:12
  She was working on something called a grit scale.
• 3:15
  She was trying to measure grit.
• 3:17
  And so she went to Westport West Point and their cadets.
• 3:23
  The military.
• 3:24
  Yeah, the military academy at West Point.
• 3:27
  Is that for high school?
• 3:28
  No, no, no, that's college.
• 3:29
  That's after.
• 3:30
  And it's really, really difficult to get into.
• 3:32
  So, I mean, you go through so much to qualify to get into that school.
• 3:37
  And the first thing they make you do when you get there is take this course called the Beast, which is like, so rigorous that a very high percentage of the freshmen who just work so hard to get in
• 3:49
  end up dropping out.
• 3:51
  And just in the first weeks of school.
• 3:53
  And so they had no way to predict who would drop out and who would stay in.
• 3:59
  So she was trying to create an instrument for them, and she created this grit scale.
• 4:03
  And it turned out that the grit score of the students turned out to be a very reliable predictor of who would get through Beast and who would not.
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  And then she went to the national spelling bee.
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  You know, the thing in Washington that we always love to watch.
• 4:18
  Oh, my God.
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  And she wanted to see if the grit scale was.
• 4:24
  Would predict who got the farthest.
• 4:27
  And it turned out, yes, the kids that it did.
• 4:31
  The kids that got the farthest were the ones who studied more hours, they competed in more local spelling bees, they did all the things you need to do to exhibit grit, and they were the ones who got the
• 4:43
  farthest.
• 4:43
  10,000 hour rule.
• 4:45
  Well, that's part of it.
• 4:46
  That is part of it.
• 4:47
  Okay, so do you want to talk about talent and what she says about talent?
• 4:51
  Yes.
• 4:52
  So chapter two is called Distracted by Talent.
• 4:56
  And the author started out as a math teacher.
• 4:59
  She could see from the beginning who picked up concepts more easily than others, but the ones who did the best in the class considered the overachievers.
• 5:07
  Were the ones who came to class prepared each day.
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  They took notes, they asked questions.
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  They always took advantage of office hours when they were offered.
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  And later she taught at Lowell, which is the San Francisco version of Stuyvesant.
• 5:21
  Right.
• 5:22
  And you may not know Stuyvesant or Lowell, depending on where you live.
• 5:26
  They're these very.
• 5:27
  They're some of the most difficult schools, high schools, to get into in the country.
• 5:33
  The acceptance rate is, like, on par with Ivy's, if not even lower.
• 5:37
  Everybody there tested to get in, but the highest performers were the hardest workers.
• 5:43
  Which makes sense, honestly.
• 5:45
  I mean, like, this idea that you have an innate talent that you don't have to work on or foster is sort of silly.
• 5:52
  Like, you're bound to plateau at a certain point.
• 5:55
  Mm.
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  And she mentions this man, Francis Galton, the cousin of Charles Darwin, if you are familiar with evolution.
• 6:04
  Evolution.
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  Ever heard of it?
• 6:08
  Yeah.
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  He was a child prodigy, but he studied high.
• 6:11
  Oh, wait, sorry.
• 6:12
  The cousin studied high achievement in 1869, Mr.
• 6:17
  Francis Galton.
• 6:18
  And he said that the highest achievers demonstrate unusual ability with exceptional zeal and capacity for hard labor.
• 6:27
  So I read this as they had a good attitude and a good work ethic, like they were undefeatable.
• 6:34
  Even when they came up against obstacles and.
• 6:37
  And just unexpected things in their way, they kept pushing.
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  His cousin, Charles Darwin, did not possess supernatural intelligence, but he was a plotter.
• 6:48
  He never gave up on the same question he was studying long after most other people would have abandoned it.
• 6:54
  Right.
• 6:56
  In America, there are some surveys, and they think that effort from strivers is more important than natural talent.
• 7:05
  And really, the author thinks that we all have a bias to think that natural talent is more important and more useful and will take you further.
• 7:14
  But that actually is not correct.
• 7:16
  The talent is the sum of a person's abilities, their intrinsic gifts, skill, knowledge, experience, intelligence, judgment, character, and drive.
• 7:26
  Right.
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  Drive being probably, I would say, the most important.
• 7:30
  Cause you can have all of these qualities, but if you have nothing pushing you, you're just gonna kind of like, be unmet potential.
• 7:39
  Right, Right.
• 7:40
  And she asked the question, is it right to separate kids as young as six and seven, put them into gifted programs over kids who are not, who don't test as gifted?
• 7:52
  And she says because gifted testing in general shines a light on talent, not on hard work.
• 7:58
  And very often, we're probably gonna be missing all those strivers who will be successful.
• 8:04
  And.
• 8:05
  And knowing what I know about gifted programs across the country, I know all the tests that are given all across the country.
• 8:11
  It's all a talent test.
• 8:14
  It's very rare that there is even a questionnaire that is given to parents or to teachers asking about how hard a child works.
• 8:24
  So that isn't even brought into the equation when they assess kids who are really young for gifted programs.
• 8:31
  So she makes a good point.
• 8:32
  Yeah.
• 8:33
  Yeah, I liked that.
• 8:35
  She tells the story of Scott Barry Kaufman, who started school actually in special ed, considered a slow learner, but he later got degrees from Carnegie Mellon, Cambridge, and Yale.
• 8:45
  And he attributes his success to grit.
• 8:49
  Our focus on talent distracts us from effort, which she argues is actually twice as important as talent.
• 8:57
  That's right.
• 8:57
  And in fact, she.
• 9:00
  In the next chapter, that is what the next chapter is, is that effort is twice as important as talent.
• 9:08
  And she says, you know, many of us, and I've heard this a million times, think that great athletes are just blessed with it, you know, or even great actresses or actors.
• 9:20
  They have it, you know, something you can't learn, something you can't.
• 9:24
  You're just born with it.
• 9:26
  But what he's saying is, you know what that.
• 9:29
  Or she is saying, no, that's not true.
• 9:31
  I mean, she says that, yes, some people have certain anatomical advantages that make them great.
• 9:39
  Like, if you're super tall and big, you can be a basketball player.
• 9:43
  If you're little and small, maybe you could be a gymnast more easily.
• 9:47
  But you're built for certain things.
• 9:48
  You're built for certain things.
• 9:50
  Yes.
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  But experts in excellence will say that greatness is doable.
• 9:55
  And greatness has many, many individual feats, and each one of them is doable.
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  And everyone loves the idea that greatness comes fully formed in the.
• 10:05
  Like, the form of a genius.
• 10:07
  But she said, but this guy, his name is Dan Chambliss.
• 10:12
  He's an expert.
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  Chamblee expert.
• 10:15
  Maybe it's Chamblee.
• 10:16
  Yeah.
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  He's an expert in excellence.
• 10:18
  And he says great things are accomplished by those whose thinking is active in one direction, and they employ everything they have to get there.
• 10:29
  And they talk about everybody thinking LeBron James as a natural, but he worked really hard at his talent.
• 10:36
  And she gives actually an equation that is her theory of achievement.
• 10:44
  And in the theory, effort counts twice.
• 10:47
  So talent times effort equals skill, and then skill times effort equals achievement.
• 10:54
  And she talks about John Irving, who was not a natural writer, although he was very famous.
• 11:00
  Very famous writer.
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  He did very poorly when he took the verbal section of the sat.
• 11:05
  He was dyslexic, and he realized that to do anything, he had to work twice as hard at it.
• 11:12
  He was Being a woman.
• 11:14
  Yes.
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  Writing was never second nature to him.
• 11:19
  He had the stamina to go over things again and again, no matter how difficult.
• 11:24
  And he said, where I excel is my ridiculous, sickening work ethic.
• 11:30
  And actually, when I read that, I totally identified with this.
• 11:33
  Did you see yourself?
• 11:34
  Totally saw myself.
• 11:35
  I was like, I am the person who works so hard to do anything.
• 11:40
  Everything I've achieved, I've had to work.
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  And it's not because I'm a woman.
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  I don't know what it's because it's just.
• 11:46
  I don't think.
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  Like, I figure my IQ is probably average, if it was ever tested.
• 11:51
  Very average.
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  But I work hard.
• 11:53
  Yeah.
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  I don't know.
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  I work really hard.
• 11:55
  Yeah.
• 11:55
  I like this idea, too, that this is a quality that is teachable and a quality that can grow.
• 12:03
  It's like a muscle.
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  The more you work it, the stronger it gets.
• 12:07
  Right.
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  And we can teach our kids this.
• 12:10
  And that's what we start to learn as we go through the book.
• 12:13
  There are all kinds of opportunities that she discusses, but I think, like, some of the ones that stood out to me, where obviously, natural adversity is something that builds resilience.
• 12:23
  You have to experience not getting your way.
• 12:25
  You have to experience things not going well at first, and you have to experience obstacles and make the choice to continue.
• 12:33
  Right.
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  And it's great when our children face these struggles under our roof because we can see it and we can help them.
• 12:43
  It's good.
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  And it's not because I think a lot of parents I know, I.
• 12:47
  I have a hard time not intervening even in simple tasks.
• 12:50
  Granted, my baby's a baby, but, like, it would be better if I could just let her make mistakes, not use things properly, and let her kind of figure it out more for herself.
• 13:04
  Well, okay.
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  Well.
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  But I think this book is kind of showing you to back off a little bit sometimes, you know, it's okay.
• 13:11
  She hates to be.
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  I know, but that's how she's gonna learn.
• 13:15
  I know.
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  Is if you let her be frustrated.
• 13:18
  Oh, my God.
• 13:18
  On the train today, I gave her her banana crackers because she was going ballistic.
• 13:24
  She kept looking out the window and pounding on the window, waving to everybody.
• 13:28
  And then she went crazy.
• 13:30
  And I gave her some crackers.
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  But then we finished the crackers, and it was more, more, more.
• 13:38
  And I was like, girl, we don't have any more, and we still have another hour on this train.
• 13:43
  So what'd you do?
• 13:44
  I just distracted her.
• 13:46
  Tried to distract her.
• 13:47
  All right, so let's talk about how gritty are you?
• 13:53
  And there is a grit test, by the way, in this book.
• 13:56
  Yeah, I didn't take it.
• 13:57
  I do.
• 13:57
  I took it.
• 13:58
  I ended up in the 75th percentile of grit.
• 14:02
  I always thought I was more gritty, but whatever I was for, I was disappointed by my grades, I was disappointed in my score.
• 14:09
  But I can work on it.
• 14:10
  Yes, that's the attitude.
• 14:12
  I'm keep working on it.
• 14:13
  But anyway, there is a test.
• 14:16
  You could probably find it online.
• 14:17
  The test, I'm guessing.
• 14:20
  But I thought, well, what's interesting is her passion questions are not about how intensely interested you are in something.
• 14:27
  They're about how steadily and consistently you hold onto them over time.
• 14:33
  So enthusiasm is common, but endurance is rare.
• 14:37
  So passion is not just about having something you care about.
• 14:41
  It's about caring for the same ultimate goal in a loyal and steady over time.
• 14:47
  That was one surprise for me, which is what passion is in this.
• 14:54
  And then she talks about, when talking about how you get to your ultimate passion or goal, she shows this hierarchy of goals.
• 15:04
  Like you have this one big goal and then maybe some mid level goals.
• 15:08
  That will get you to the goal.
• 15:10
  And then sub goals at the bottom.
• 15:12
  And she had this exercise where she was like, write 25 goals.
• 15:16
  Well, that was Warren Buffett's test.
• 15:21
  Remember Warren Buffett?
• 15:22
  I thought that was really interesting.
• 15:24
  Yeah.
• 15:24
  Warren Buffett has this idea that if you write down 25 goals, you then look through and you find the five that look like the big ones and you start to notice, yeah, for you, those like five things you
• 15:37
  really want to achieve, long term things, things you're going to have to really invest in.
• 15:40
  And you'll notice a lot of the other goals that aren't in the top five are actually mini goals that will help you ultimately reach the larger ones.
• 15:49
  And it's a way to kind of break down goals into actionable, meetable milestones and steps.
• 15:57
  Right.
• 15:57
  But the thing that, the difference that was, that's what she said when she did the test.
• 16:03
  But what Warren Buffett said is if you pick your five, he said, avoid all the rest.
• 16:09
  Avoid the rest because he said they're going to distract you from the five big ones that you really want to accomplish.
• 16:15
  But that's when she discovered, well, yeah, but so many of my other goals were sub goals to get me there,.
• 16:22
  Which I think is interesting.
• 16:23
  I think often when I have a much larger goal, it feels so daunting and it's like, oh my God, like I can't even imagine what it's going to take to ultimately reach this goal.
• 16:37
  But I like that exercise because it sort of helps you realize, like, okay, here are a couple.
• 16:41
  Here are several things I know I need to accomplish, maybe subconsciously, in order to get this larger thing.
• 16:49
  So I like this exercise.
• 16:50
  I say, everybody should do this.
• 16:51
  I think I was thinking it would be worth trying.
• 16:54
  I like this idea, too.
• 16:56
  And she tells a story about a very famous cartoonist who wrote for the New Yorker.
• 17:03
  And everybody knows who he is, but he didn't have that it from the beginning.
• 17:08
  And he would set his goals and he would get rejected.
• 17:12
  And it just illustrated how he had that one goal, which was to be a great cartoonist.
• 17:18
  And he kept at it, trying different ways in doing different things, you know, dropping some goals until he finally did get there.
• 17:28
  But he never lost his compass, which was be a great cartoonist.
• 17:32
  Yeah, my teacher.
• 17:34
  My acting teacher used to say that.
• 17:36
  Like, he asked me, I remember after I came back, I did the program first time, first year, didn't get into the second year.
• 17:42
  And he just asked me.
• 17:43
  He's like, is this your North Star?
• 17:45
  Because he's like, I'm gonna tell you something.
• 17:47
  If it's not, you should not waste your time.
• 17:50
  This is such a competitive field.
• 17:53
  So many people do it and never get anywhere.
• 17:56
  And it's like, to be totally honest, the people who truly end up having success are the ones who stick with it.
• 18:03
  Like, I just saw a friend of mine who I went to conservatory with.
• 18:06
  Oh, my God, almost 20 years ago at this point.
• 18:08
  Yeah, I'm a thousand.
• 18:09
  Yeah.
• 18:10
  Just booked a Broadway tour, and she's been at this 25 years.
• 18:14
  This is her first Broadway tour.
• 18:16
  So it really just goes to show you, I mean, that's grit, right?
• 18:19
  I mean, this girl, I have never, ever seen someone who works so hard, who is so devoted, who has such a good attitude, even during the setbacks, like, she would do extra work and, like, walk across a shot,
• 18:31
  and she would really, like, steal the scene with her walk.
• 18:34
  Right, right.
• 18:35
  You know, and her attitude, for every single matter how small or how large is, how can I make the absolute most of this?
• 18:42
  Wow, that's great.
• 18:43
  And now she's got a Broadway tour.
• 18:45
  Now she's got a Broadway tour.
• 18:46
  That's amazing.
• 18:47
  I know.
• 18:47
  Do you remember when you were telling that story?
• 18:50
  It made me think of.
• 18:51
  I don't know if you remember.
• 18:52
  Several years ago, dad and I got friendly on a trip to Russia, as it was to someone who worked for Loren Michaels, was one of his assistant top people.
• 19:06
  And they were in Russia trying To start Russian Saturday night.
• 19:10
  Can you imagine?
• 19:11
  And we were hanging out in the bar.
• 19:12
  Do the Russians have humor?
• 19:13
  I don't know.
• 19:14
  I mean, this was a long time ago.
• 19:15
  I don't know what happened.
• 19:16
  But anyway, they were trying to start.
• 19:18
  Shut it down.
• 19:19
  Maybe he did.
• 19:19
  I don't know.
• 19:20
  Putin said absolutely no laughs.
• 19:21
  But back then they were trying to create it.
• 19:23
  And then when we got back to New York and we met up with her, I think you were there.
• 19:28
  Yeah.
• 19:29
  And we were having, we were just having a drink or something and she said to you, because we were talking about it, because you were trying to be an actor at that time.
• 19:38
  And she said, you know, I've watched all these people come through Saturday Night Live through all these years.
• 19:44
  And she said, the ones who make it are the ones who just keep at it.
• 19:48
  They don't give up.
• 19:49
  Yeah.
• 19:49
  Do you remember that?
• 19:50
  Yeah.
• 19:51
  I mean, some people audition for SNL probably 10 times before they get in, if they get in at all.
• 19:57
  And I respect that.
• 19:58
  I really respect that.
• 20:00
  I also, it's like, okay.
• 20:01
  Have you watched the Dallas Cowboys cheerleading show?
• 20:03
  No, not yet.
• 20:04
  Oh my God.
• 20:05
  It is a true example of grit.
• 20:09
  I mean, these girls are all so unbelievably talented.
• 20:13
  Wow.
• 20:13
  Unbelievably talented dancers.
• 20:15
  So beautiful, so committed.
• 20:18
  And like, even some of the great ones don't make it.
• 20:22
  But they come back year after year after year.
• 20:26
  Uh huh.
• 20:26
  They're so.
• 20:27
  They've got their eye on the prize.
• 20:29
  They do.
• 20:30
  And also, I mean, even once you're in, half of them need hip replacements by the time they're done because of the thunderstruck jump splits.
• 20:36
  Oh my God.
• 20:37
  You know, it's crazy.
• 20:38
  It's crazy, but I mean, these are the.
• 20:41
  Honestly, hate to say it, I feel like women are grittier than men.
• 20:46
  Well, probably true.
• 20:47
  Yeah, that could be true.
• 20:48
  Just like day to day stuff that we deal with.
• 20:51
  I feel they could never.
• 20:55
  My feeling about Testing mom is that there is no investment too great to make into your child's well being.
• 21:04
  Their sense of security, their sense of knowledge, their sense of achievement, and feeling secure about what they know, especially when it comes to doing well in school.
• 21:17
  I would say that Testing mom is not only the most worthwhile investment I've made into my daughter's education thus far, it's really so affordable.
• 21:31
  It provided me with literally what seemed like an infinite amount of options.
• 21:38
  So if you signed on for all these apps individually, you would pay much, much more.
• 21:45
  That's interesting.
• 21:47
  I don't know how you know the names of the kinds of splits, I guess if I watch the show.
• 21:50
  Oh, you have to watch the show.
• 21:52
  All right.
• 21:52
  The girls are, like, so sweet, and so.
• 21:55
  They're all, like, good Christian, Godfaring girls.
• 21:58
  Oh, I want to watch it.
• 21:59
  What?
• 22:00
  Is it on?
• 22:00
  It's on Netflix.
• 22:01
  There's, like, three seasons.
• 22:03
  Oh, good.
• 22:03
  I want to watch it to catch up on.
• 22:04
  Oh, boy.
• 22:05
  Well, all right.
• 22:06
  So she says, grit grows over time.
• 22:09
  And the other thing she says, I think this is an important story for parents.
• 22:13
  She tells the story of her daughter who was always late for school, no matter how often the author scolded her or lectured her.
• 22:21
  But then she got a job at a retail store, and her daughter's boss said to you, the first time you're late, you're fired.
• 22:27
  There are no second chances.
• 22:29
  She was never late.
• 22:30
  Yeah.
• 22:30
  And she's changed because she had to.
• 22:32
  And she said, you know, lectures do not have the same effects as consequences.
• 22:36
  Yeah.
• 22:36
  Like my husband, he said, skylar, if you're late, we're not gonna stay together.
• 22:41
  And that was it.
• 22:42
  And I was like, all right, I guess I gotta be on time.
• 22:45
  Yeah, right.
• 22:46
  Exactly.
• 22:46
  Okay.
• 22:47
  So that's something for parents to know is just consequences.
• 22:51
  How important if a child leaves their lunch at home, don't bring it.
• 22:57
  They're gonna be hungry for one day.
• 22:58
  I bet they'll remember that.
• 23:00
  Yeah.
• 23:01
  Consequences.
• 23:02
  Consequences.
• 23:03
  Okay.
• 23:05
  Okay.
• 23:06
  So she says that.
• 23:08
  That she studied people who are truly gritty, and she came up with four psychological aspects of people with grit.
• 23:16
  1.
• 23:16
  And they develop in this order.
• 23:18
  First, there's interest.
• 23:19
  You're interested in something.
• 23:22
  Then there's a desire to practice.
• 23:24
  But it's a different kind of practice, which we're gonna learn about.
• 23:27
  But it's the willingness to zero in on your weaknesses and work on your weaknesses over time so that you'll improve.
• 23:35
  You have purpose, you feel your work matters, and you have hope that if I keep at it, I'm going to accomplish it.
• 23:43
  So you have to have those things.
• 23:44
  It reminds me of crit.
• 23:46
  Of what?
• 23:47
  Crit in art school.
• 23:49
  Oh, right.
• 23:49
  You've talked about that before, where everyone.
• 23:52
  In your class just brutally rips your work to shreds, but you do it because maybe there are a few sincere people in your class who aren't jealous haters who actually look at your work and are like, hey, maybe
• 24:03
  you could do something a little more creative with this quadrant.
• 24:06
  Or, you know, maybe your colors could be a little more blah, blah, blah, you know?
• 24:12
  Right.
• 24:13
  And that.
• 24:13
  We did that a lot at acting school, too.
• 24:15
  Like, Every day, everybody worked, and first our teacher would give us his thoughts, and then you sort of open the floor up to everybody else, and they could say what they noticed.
• 24:26
  And, like, you learn a lot from that, but you also learn a lot from watching other people do the thing you're doing.
• 24:34
  You're like, oh, that's horrible.
• 24:35
  I'm never gonna do that.
• 24:36
  Well, that's.
• 24:37
  And that's how you improve, by watching people, but also working on the things you're not as good at.
• 24:42
  Yeah.
• 24:43
  You have to have an openness.
• 24:44
  You have to have thick skin, but you also have to have that, like, what she talks about, this true desire to get better.
• 24:51
  Yeah.
• 24:52
  And in order to do that one, you need to know where your baseline is.
• 24:55
  How good are you really?
• 24:57
  And how much further can you go?
• 25:00
  Right, right.
• 25:01
  Exactly.
• 25:02
  All right.
• 25:02
  Interest.
• 25:03
  Let's talk about interest.
• 25:04
  Interest.
• 25:05
  You want to talk about interest?
• 25:06
  Get started.
• 25:07
  Sure.
• 25:09
  Well, I'm on passion.
• 25:10
  I don't know where my interest went.
• 25:11
  Okay, well, interest.
• 25:13
  Oh, passion, I think, is the.
• 25:14
  Is.
• 25:16
  Oh, where are you?
• 25:17
  Well, I'll do interest in.
• 25:19
  Find where we are.
• 25:20
  Okay.
• 25:20
  In our notes.
• 25:21
  Okay.
• 25:22
  Okay.
• 25:23
  She says, all right, first of all, this was an important point, but kind of.
• 25:27
  I think it's pretty obvious.
• 25:28
  But she says, every time you hear a commencement address, they always say to students, follow your passion.
• 25:33
  Right.
• 25:34
  And she says, is that true?
• 25:35
  Do you really need to follow your passion?
• 25:37
  And she says, well, there's all kinds of research that says that people are more satisfied with their jobs if they fit their personal interests.
• 25:46
  So the answer is yes, it is a good idea to follow things that are interesting to you.
• 25:52
  Like, someone like you or me would have, like, died a thousand deaths if we'd had to do a job where we were crunching numbers all day.
• 26:02
  Oh, my God.
• 26:03
  I did that once.
• 26:04
  Well, okay.
• 26:05
  Someone stupid hired me to do their books for their bar.
• 26:09
  Oh, my God.
• 26:10
  Well.
• 26:10
  Cause I told them I could, and I needed a job, and I was really just saying yes to everything.
• 26:15
  Were you miserable?
• 26:16
  I was confused.
• 26:17
  Okay.
• 26:18
  I was gonna say I was just.
• 26:19
  Literally entering things into QuickBooks.
• 26:21
  And I was like, sure.
• 26:22
  So if they get tried for tax.
• 26:26
  Fraud, that might be my fault.
• 26:28
  Could be your.
• 26:28
  Cause I never filed their taxes.
• 26:30
  Oh, no.
• 26:31
  Oh, my God.
• 26:32
  I was 19.
• 26:32
  They shouldn't have hired me.
• 26:33
  They shouldn't have.
• 26:34
  Well, I.
• 26:35
  The only time I've ever cried at work was when they were making me do the numbers.
• 26:41
  And I remember my boss came over, and I was just weeping in my cubicle.
• 26:44
  And he's like, what's going on?
• 26:46
  I'm like.
• 26:46
  He's like.
• 26:47
  I'm like, I can't do this.
• 26:48
  My husband tries to show me because, like, we moved.
• 26:50
  We just bought this house.
• 26:51
  He tries to show me all these Excel spreadsheets of all these things, and I just, like, disassociate.
• 26:57
  Me, too.
• 26:57
  And nod.
• 26:58
  I'm like, yeah.
• 26:58
  He's like, and see it.
• 27:00
  And we budget here and this and that and our closing costs.
• 27:02
  And I'm like, I know.
• 27:04
  Your eyes glaze over.
• 27:05
  I get it.
• 27:06
  I get it.
• 27:07
  Yeah.
• 27:07
  And then finally I come back and he's like, isn't that great?
• 27:09
  And I'm like, fabulous.
• 27:10
  That's amazing.
• 27:11
  And so you don't want to have a job that makes you do that?
• 27:14
  Yeah.
• 27:14
  Never.
• 27:15
  Never.
• 27:16
  Okay.
• 27:17
  So how is passion fostered?
• 27:20
  And this is important for parents.
• 27:23
  She talks about the fact that, you know, it starts.
• 27:28
  Most people do not gravitate towards a real vocational interest till middle school.
• 27:33
  And interests are going to be triggered by the outside world, and they're often found in very messy ways.
• 27:39
  You have to experiment with lots of things to see what sticks.
• 27:43
  You need many encounters and experiences with your interest in order to keep your keep interested.
• 27:51
  And you need positive feedback by people around you, encouragement if you're doing something.
• 27:58
  But nobody's gonna work at things unless they find them inherently interesting, so you must find that.
• 28:04
  And she says, so with your kids, okay, you want to encourage them in the early years, give them some autonomy.
• 28:13
  Overbearing teachers and parents erode motivation towards a passion.
• 28:18
  And let them practice.
• 28:20
  And encourage them to practice, but not too soon.
• 28:23
  She says rushing a beginner will ruin their interest.
• 28:27
  Just let them play with it.
• 28:28
  Yeah.
• 28:29
  Right.
• 28:29
  And you kind of have to come back to that playful part of the exploration.
• 28:36
  Right.
• 28:36
  That's really important.
• 28:37
  And if you're looking for, like, well, what is my passion?
• 28:40
  You know, I can't find it.
• 28:41
  I mean, you hear kids talking about that all the time.
• 28:45
  She gives you questions to ask yourself, like, what do I like to think about?
• 28:49
  Where does my mind wander?
• 28:51
  What do I care about?
• 28:52
  What really matters to me?
• 28:54
  How do I like spending my time?
• 28:56
  What do I find unbearable?
• 28:59
  I think that's an important one.
• 29:01
  Just don't be afraid to experiment with things that might interest you and look for other people who share things that might interest you.
• 29:11
  Look for a mentor.
• 29:14
  Eventually you'll find the thing that could stick.
• 29:17
  Yes.
• 29:18
  Should we talk about practice?
• 29:19
  Chapter seven?
• 29:20
  Sure.
• 29:20
  We can totally talk about practice.
• 29:26
  I don't know.
• 29:27
  Why?
• 29:27
  Nothing.
• 29:28
  None of my stuff Is in order.
• 29:29
  You have to actually put, like, the.
• 29:31
  I have.
• 29:32
  But for some reason, I feel like I like when I was cutting this out, I like, put things in the wrong place.
• 29:38
  Like, my thing goes to.
• 29:40
  That's a rough average.
• 29:42
  It's a huge investment in practice.
• 29:45
  But Erin says it's a different kind.
• 29:47
  No, that is.
• 29:49
  That's practice.
• 29:49
  That is.
• 29:50
  You're on practice.
• 29:51
  I think I just, like, lost track of a chunk.
• 29:53
  Cause when I do these cards, I do it surrounded by animals and babies who are constantly stealing my things.
• 29:59
  Like, when I was cutting these out, Leti stole my scissors.
• 30:02
  We do this the old fashioned way.
• 30:04
  We cut up paper to make our cards.
• 30:06
  And not only do we do that, but we are not eco terrorists here at other people's parenting.
• 30:10
  And you know what we do?
• 30:11
  We reuse our cards.
• 30:13
  That's right.
• 30:13
  There's about seven episodes worth of cards.
• 30:16
  That's right.
• 30:16
  We do.
• 30:17
  We are environmentally friendly people.
• 30:20
  Yes, we are.
• 30:21
  Our footprint.
• 30:23
  Miniscule, right?
• 30:24
  The size of a bird.
• 30:25
  We walked here today.
• 30:26
  We walked here.
• 30:27
  Actually, I didn't.
• 30:28
  I took the train.
• 30:29
  Oh.
• 30:29
  Except, how's my audio?
• 30:31
  I don't know, Skylar.
• 30:33
  Is it so low?
• 30:34
  Is it even worse?
• 30:35
  Okay, that's fine.
• 30:36
  All right.
• 30:37
  So we're talking about.
• 30:38
  I'll say what you missed, and then you can get into practice.
• 30:41
  Okay.
• 30:42
  Practice.
• 30:42
  It does take 10 years or 10,000 hours to be.
• 30:45
  And that's a rough estimate.
• 30:47
  Yeah.
• 30:47
  Take it from there.
• 30:48
  Okay.
• 30:49
  Okay.
• 30:49
  That's a rough average.
• 30:50
  It's a huge investment in practice.
• 30:53
  But according to the experts, it's a different kind of practice.
• 30:56
  It is what's known as deliberate practice.
• 30:59
  So you set a stretch goal, striving to improve a specific weakness, a goal that you can't yet meet.
• 31:05
  You give full concentration to that goal, and then you do a huge effort, and you do it when nobody's watching.
• 31:12
  So it's like the rehearsal, right?
• 31:14
  If you're trying to perfect a piece on the piano, there's gonna be a couple moments that trip you up.
• 31:18
  You have to practice those rote over and over and over until you can do it perfectly.
• 31:23
  Practice the hard stuff.
• 31:24
  Practice the hard stuff.
• 31:25
  It's fun to do the stuff you're good at over and over again.
• 31:28
  But don't think, oh, listen to how fabulous I sound.
• 31:30
  But that does not help you improve.
• 31:32
  No, no.
• 31:34
  And then you need to seek immediate feedback on this.
• 31:38
  So ideally, you have a coach or.
• 31:40
  A coach or just another.
• 31:43
  Like, I remember when I would do rehearsals for scene work when we were getting close to putting a scene up.
• 31:50
  We would work with another set of people doing another scene and we would run them for each other and give each other notes to try and come into class and look like we know what we're doing.
• 32:00
  Right.
• 32:01
  So you get your feedback and then repeat.
• 32:04
  Yes.
• 32:04
  But you also have to be fearless.
• 32:06
  Like when you are doing this, you have to really commit and be fearless, even though you might embarrass yourself.
• 32:11
  Because being a learner can be embarrassing.
• 32:14
  It can be.
• 32:15
  That's true.
• 32:17
  Well, and then after they master a hard goal, they set a new one.
• 32:21
  Yes, a stretch goal.
• 32:22
  So that's the idea is you keep stretching and you keep stretching and you keep stretching until you finally meet mastery.
• 32:29
  Right?
• 32:29
  Exactly.
• 32:30
  And the advice for students is if you see someone, some kid doing something amazing on YouTube, just know that there were behind that hours and hours of practice and practice before they put up their best video on YouTube.
• 32:47
  Yes.
• 32:48
  This did not just happen.
• 32:49
  No, it did not.
• 32:51
  You have to make deliberate practice a daily habit and make it part of your routine.
• 32:56
  Right.
• 32:56
  Like, I remember when I was doing my solo show, what I would do for two months before I put it up every day while I cleaned my house, I would just speak it out loud and then I would
• 33:07
  do it again in front of a mirror later in the day.
• 33:10
  So I would run it twice a day.
• 33:12
  Because let me tell you, when you're gonna talk in front of a bunch of people for an hour straight, you gotta practice.
• 33:19
  You don't wanna forget your lines.
• 33:21
  And I did, even sometimes.
• 33:22
  But then, you know what you have to do is you have to make it work.
• 33:25
  Yes.
• 33:25
  The show must go on.
• 33:27
  So I would futz around with a prop and pretend it was part of the show.
• 33:30
  Cause that's what you do, right?
• 33:32
  That's right.
• 33:33
  Okay.
• 33:33
  Like you used to say, unless you are on your deathbed in the hospital, if you're in a play, you're there at curtain call.
• 33:40
  Unless you are unconscious.
• 33:42
  Wow.
• 33:42
  You are there at curtain call, the show goes on.
• 33:45
  That's right.
• 33:46
  Or your understudy will replace you.
• 33:49
  And God forbid they do it better than you because then you're out of the job.
• 33:52
  That's right.
• 33:52
  That's a lot of motivation.
• 33:54
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:55
  That's grit.
• 33:56
  Anyway.
• 33:57
  All right, now we're going to get into purpose.
• 33:59
  And this is interesting.
• 34:01
  They said that interest is a source of passion.
• 34:05
  But.
• 34:05
  But purpose is the intention to contribute to the well being of others.
• 34:11
  And people first become attracted to something because it interests them.
• 34:15
  But then it's like they realize, well, Maybe what I'm doing could help other people.
• 34:21
  And they tell this bricklayer parable, which I thought was good.
• 34:26
  I didn't love this.
• 34:27
  Oh, I did.
• 34:27
  It made sense to me.
• 34:30
  The first bricklayer said, oh, I'm laying brick.
• 34:33
  The second one said, oh, I'm building a church.
• 34:35
  And the third one said, I'm building a house of God.
• 34:39
  The first one has a job, the second has a career, and the third has a calling.
• 34:44
  So most of us want our jobs to be more than just a job.
• 34:49
  We want it to help.
• 34:51
  We want it to help people like us here.
• 34:55
  Helping you.
• 34:56
  Right.
• 34:56
  We know that it's hard to be a mom.
• 34:58
  It's hard to read a 300 page book every week and learn and be a great, you know, get the best out of it.
• 35:07
  This is our calling.
• 35:07
  So this is our calling.
• 35:10
  Here we are laying ourselves out on the line.
• 35:13
  That's right.
• 35:14
  Well, and actually, when I started testing mom, it was the same thing.
• 35:17
  It was like I helped my son who had learning issues and he got into a great school and he also got better because he was struggling.
• 35:28
  And I thought, gee, if I can help my child, can I help other people help their children?
• 35:33
  And that's always been like the passion for me for that business is I'm helping other parents.
• 35:40
  And that means something.
• 35:42
  Yeah, it does.
• 35:43
  Yeah.
• 35:44
  You gotta have a calling, even if it's not your job.
• 35:46
  You gotta have a hobby that feels.
• 35:48
  Like a calling, something that feels like you're help.
• 35:50
  And if you can help your kids, look at their interests, whatever they're interested in, like they gave an example.
• 35:58
  And ask your child, you know, what you're learning about this in science, how, you know, if you're really interested in it, how might it help other people?
• 36:08
  And the child might say, well, I'd like to get a job as a genetic researcher to help improve the world by engineering crops that produce more food for people.
• 36:18
  So, you know, tie to tie, what they're interested in, in ways they might be able to help people.
• 36:24
  Yes.
• 36:24
  That gives it even deeper meaning, I think.
• 36:26
  Right.
• 36:27
  It makes.
• 36:27
  Yeah, helps them.
• 36:28
  So.
• 36:29
  Yeah, exactly.
• 36:31
  Okay.
• 36:31
  And then we get into chapter nine, which is hope.
• 36:36
  And you know, hope, which is being an optimistic person.
• 36:40
  Yes.
• 36:40
  Hoping that if you keep at your desired goal, you will eventually meet it and hopefully.
• 36:46
  And make it.
• 36:47
  Yeah, and make it and succeed.
• 36:48
  Right.
• 36:49
  She talks a lot about optimism and optimism.
• 36:52
  Optimists are just as likely to encounter bad events as pessimists.
• 36:56
  But optimists search for temporary and solvable causes of their suffering.
• 37:00
  Pessimists assume permanent and pervasive causes are to blame.
• 37:04
  Also outside things.
• 37:07
  I feel like optimists choose to take control of situations and say, listen, this is where I'm at and I'm just gonna make the best of this.
• 37:18
  And pessimists just blame other people and other things and circumstances and feel like they have control, I think is really the difference.
• 37:27
  And then she just gets into Carol Dweck's work.
• 37:30
  Yes.
• 37:30
  Which we love.
• 37:31
  Go back.
• 37:32
  Listen to the mindset episode.
• 37:33
  That's right.
• 37:34
  That's great work.
• 37:35
  I mean, it is important.
• 37:38
  Talk about, you know, supporting our kids by telling them to keep working at it.
• 37:49
  And hard work is what's gonna get you there, as opposed to being smart.
• 37:54
  It may makes obstacles feel more like a challenge, which is fun.
• 38:00
  It's like, okay, here is something for me to solve.
• 38:03
  Yeah.
• 38:04
  You know, I remember at the nightclub I worked at, whenever I would have a difficult customer or client, I sort of like to think about to myself, hmm, how can I make these people less horrible?
• 38:16
  So do I have to kill them with kindness?
• 38:18
  You know, what do I like, what is it gonna take to get them to be more cooperative with me?
• 38:23
  Oh, interesting.
• 38:24
  And I would just try different stuff.
• 38:25
  And you know what that did occupied a lot of my time and got me through the night.
• 38:29
  Uh huh.
• 38:30
  Did it work?
• 38:30
  Were you able to most of the time?
• 38:32
  Yeah.
• 38:32
  There were only a couple people who I was like, oh my God, throw them out the window.
• 38:36
  But I was always the girl who got the most difficult people because of my attitude.
• 38:41
  Because you could handle them.
• 38:42
  Yeah.
• 38:42
  And all the other girls would just be like, I'm good on this.
• 38:45
  I'm not gonna take it, I'm not gonna do it.
• 38:46
  And I'm like, well, I'll make the money for all of us.
• 38:49
  Don't worry about it.
• 38:50
  I was gonna say there was something new that I did learn about Carol Dweck's work, which was, I didn't know this, that she did one of the, or one of the studies she did, she found that the students
• 39:03
  that she worked with and taught to have a growth mindset, their IQ scores went up over time because they understood they could keep working at these things.
• 39:15
  And it not only brought up their scores at school, but their IQs went up, which I didn't even realize, which I thought that was interesting.
• 39:21
  Well, think about it.
• 39:22
  I mean, all IQ tests are, are a set of skills, and you're measured.
• 39:26
  Right.
• 39:26
  And I think honestly, you can improve pretty much any skill if you work at it long Enough and long enough, you know, like, that's what they talk about in Malcolm Gladwell's book.
• 39:39
  I don't remember which book.
• 39:40
  It was the one where he talks about 10,000 hours, and that's how you do it.
• 39:42
  He talks a lot about how the Beatles.
• 39:44
  The reason the Beatles were so great wasn't some, like, stroke of.
• 39:48
  They weren't geniuses, right?
• 39:50
  They had years and years and years playing local shows in Liverpool, and they played together so many times and so much that their show, their set got so tight that by the time they started getting attention, they were
• 40:04
  leagues beyond all the other local bands.
• 40:06
  Very much like what she's talking about here in terms of the perseverance.
• 40:10
  Yeah, yeah, very much so.
• 40:12
  If you want to be the Beatles, you got to have grit.
• 40:14
  That's right.
• 40:15
  That's right.
• 40:16
  When I think about Karen Quinn and Testing mom, the first thing that stands out is their effectiveness in truly enhancing a child's education.
• 40:25
  You see, Karen is a national expert on gifted and talented testing, and she's the ultimate authority on helping kids get into top schools.
• 40:33
  I know this firsthand because she helped two out of my three kids get into the best schools in New York City.
• 40:40
  And my youngest child is eight months.
• 40:42
  I'm sure she will help her as well.
• 40:45
  What really makes Testing Moms special is that they're not just about academics.
• 40:50
  They're focused on the social and emotional development of children.
• 40:54
  It's about nurturing the whole child and giving them a strong foundation in academics and confidence and life skills.
• 41:02
  Her insights and resources have made a lasting impact on my family and countless others.
• 41:09
  I am forever indebted to Karen Quinn and Testing mom, and you should have no hesitation about trying out their services.
• 41:18
  Okay?
• 41:18
  Now, parenting for Grit.
• 41:19
  This is an important chapter, okay?
• 41:21
  This is where it becomes relevant to us.
• 41:23
  To us.
• 41:24
  Okay.
• 41:25
  All right.
• 41:26
  So is grit forged by parents who have high standards for their kids, or is it nurtured in the warm embrace of loving support?
• 41:36
  She says there's a lot of research on parenting, but really no research on parenting and grit.
• 41:41
  But she says, I'm a parent, and I know a lot about grit, so I'm just gonna tell you what I think.
• 41:47
  Great.
• 41:48
  That's right.
• 41:48
  Go off, girl.
• 41:49
  So she tells a story of Steve Young, a quarterback for the The San Francisco 49ers.
• 41:55
  San Francisco.
• 41:56
  And his parents were very tough on him, and often he wanted to quit football, but his parents just wouldn't let him.
• 42:03
  In high school one year, he got or he got no.
• 42:07
  This was.
• 42:07
  I think he started in baseball first.
• 42:10
  And so he was in baseball first.
• 42:12
  And he got.
• 42:12
  One year.
• 42:13
  He got absolutely no hits.
• 42:15
  And so I think that's a football term, too.
• 42:18
  Really?
• 42:18
  Is it?
• 42:18
  I think.
• 42:19
  I don't.
• 42:19
  I think.
• 42:20
  Don't quote me.
• 42:21
  Cause this is not a sports podcast.
• 42:22
  We are not sports people.
• 42:24
  Even though Sam is our sports.
• 42:26
  We'll have to consult.
• 42:27
  We'll consult.
• 42:28
  We'll consult.
• 42:29
  I thought he started maybe in.
• 42:31
  Well, they say a lot of high school athletes start doing, like, a different sport every day.
• 42:35
  Right.
• 42:35
  And then they change and they play.
• 42:36
  And then they play.
• 42:37
  Whatever he did his freshman year, he did not do well.
• 42:40
  And he had to sit it out, Rip.
• 42:42
  And his father wouldn't let him quit.
• 42:44
  Yeah.
• 42:44
  And so he said, you gotta go back.
• 42:47
  You gotta work it out.
• 42:48
  And he kept going back, and by senior year, he was a captain of the team.
• 42:52
  And then this lesson in persistence helped when he was signed with the 49ers, because, again, he was sitting on the bench the whole time.
• 43:01
  And his father encouraged him and said, you know Joe Montana, who was the quarterback then, very smart, good quarterback, successful.
• 43:09
  He said, you know, just attach yourself to him and learn from him.
• 43:13
  Which he did.
• 43:14
  Then he got better and better.
• 43:16
  And he was a wonderful athlete.
• 43:19
  But his parents were really hard on him.
• 43:22
  But they did have a rule that once you commit to something, you discipline yourself to do it, whether it's athletics or anything else.
• 43:28
  And they supported him.
• 43:30
  So they were both warm and supportive, but also tough on him.
• 43:33
  I like that, too.
• 43:34
  I think it is important, when our children are considering extracurricular activities, to ask them, do you really want to do this?
• 43:43
  Because let me just lay out for you what this is gonna look like if you really want to do this.
• 43:47
  It is every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, however many hours a day with this teacher, with these people.
• 43:54
  And if you decide to commit to this, you're doing this right.
• 43:58
  For a minimum of however many years.
• 44:00
  I also like this idea that you get what you put into it.
• 44:04
  I think that's a really meaningful thing for anybody to learn.
• 44:08
  To learn, particularly kids, because you can get very far if you are willing to really show up and do something.
• 44:17
  That's right.
• 44:18
  That's the experience I had at school.
• 44:19
  I did the first time, the first year, the first time.
• 44:22
  And I was like, in and out, in and out, mediocre.
• 44:25
  And then I left for two years, and I came back and I was like, you know what?
• 44:27
  If I am gonna do this again, I'm gonna do it a million percent.
• 44:30
  And I did.
• 44:31
  And I learned how to do something a million percent through that school.
• 44:35
  Right.
• 44:35
  You saw the difference between not putting in effort and then putting in effort.
• 44:39
  That's right.
• 44:40
  If you wanna be somebody that other people wanna be like, you gotta really set the.
• 44:45
  Hold yourself to a high standard.
• 44:46
  Well, the author said she really saw a pattern of parents of world class athletes, artists, performers.
• 44:53
  It was the parents who were both supportive and demanding at the same time who those kids did the best.
• 45:02
  And they tended to be child centered and they would put their children's interests first.
• 45:07
  But they realized that children are not always the best interest judge of what to do, how hard to work and when to give up.
• 45:14
  Amy Chua would agree.
• 45:15
  Yes.
• 45:16
  So sometimes they didn't let him give up.
• 45:18
  And so, you know, and she talks about how, you know, if you have a teacher who is very demanding on your child, that's a good thing because kids try to live up to their expectations.
• 45:34
  So she talks about that.
• 45:37
  And again, we get into different parenting styles.
• 45:40
  And it is the authoritative parent she says does the best with kids.
• 45:45
  Those parents raised the grittiest kids.
• 45:50
  And she said she signed her daughter up for ballet because she thinks, from what she has seen, that if your child is in a structured extracurricular where there's an adult in charge who's supportive and demanding, but not a
• 46:04
  parent, that is what's gonna cultivate grit in them.
• 46:10
  And she says, you know, it's just very important to them.
• 46:15
  There's been a lot of studies and this is what I think is especially important for parents.
• 46:20
  Yes.
• 46:20
  Okay.
• 46:21
  There's been a lot of studies that talk about how important extracurriculars are as a way of practicing grit.
• 46:28
  And there's a study from Columbia university that followed 11,000 kids to see the effect of high school curriculars for two or more years, as opposed to just one.
• 46:39
  And kids who do at least 2, 2 years of extracurriculars are more likely to graduate from college to earn more money, but only if they participate for more than two years.
• 46:51
  Well, that's because they have learned how.
• 46:54
  To work hard and keep at it.
• 46:56
  Yeah, right, exactly.
• 46:58
  That is a skill that is transferable.
• 47:00
  Yes.
• 47:01
  And ets, which is the company that does the sat, they've done the same kind of study and what they came up with was the same thing.
• 47:10
  And colleges are now looking at this.
• 47:12
  So I want parents to listen to this.
• 47:14
  This is really important, is that colleges look at do students participate in at least two extracurriculars over two years and do they show growth by doing it?
• 47:30
  So they are Looking for this in college applications.
• 47:33
  Are they capable of committing and improving?
• 47:36
  Yes.
• 47:36
  Yes.
• 47:37
  And so there have been tons of studies about this.
• 47:39
  And Harvard admits that's something they pay close attention to in their applicants.
• 47:44
  They actually have a GRIT score.
• 47:46
  They don't call it a GRIT score, but they're looking at it as.
• 47:49
  Did they participate in the two.
• 47:52
  In at least two extracurriculars over a period of time where they got better and they showed some leadership at the end.
• 48:00
  So that's kind of what you're trying to encourage your child to do.
• 48:03
  Well, yeah.
• 48:04
  I mean, if you want to produce world leaders, you need to start with kids that have already been molded into people on that track.
• 48:13
  Right.
• 48:14
  They're hard workers.
• 48:15
  They'll stick with things.
• 48:16
  Yeah.
• 48:16
  And those are the kids who will graduate from college versus the ones who give up early and may not.
• 48:23
  It's the tortoise and the hare.
• 48:25
  Yeah, Just keep at it, you know.
• 48:27
  That's right.
• 48:27
  And so I thought that was one of the most important things I got from this book in terms of guiding my kids, that.
• 48:35
  That by the time they get to high school, we should be honing in on at least two things for them to focus on.
• 48:43
  I want my kids to find one team extracurricular to commit to and then one solo extracurricular.
• 48:49
  So maybe like an instrument in a sport or I don't know, but like something where they can learn how to be a person in adjustment with other people and something where they can be every man for him and
• 49:02
  do their best.
• 49:02
  That's right.
• 49:03
  Exactly.
• 49:03
  That's right.
• 49:04
  I think that's true.
• 49:05
  And her family lives by what they call the hard thing rule.
• 49:09
  And the rule is everyone, including mom and dad, have to do a hard thing.
• 49:15
  And that's something that requires deliberate daily practice.
• 49:19
  One daughter does piano, the other ballet at the time of the writing.
• 49:23
  And it's okay if the hard thing is fun as long as it can be deliberately practiced.
• 49:28
  Yes, you can quit, but not until the season or tuition interval is up.
• 49:33
  So you can't quit in the middle.
• 49:34
  If I pay for it, you're going.
• 49:35
  That's right.
• 49:36
  And you get to pick your hard thing.
• 49:40
  But by high school, she says you have to commit to one activity for at least two years.
• 49:46
  And I guess it's cause she knows that.
• 49:47
  Research, obviously.
• 49:49
  Okay, the next part of the book is just.
• 49:53
  And you'll.
• 49:55
  I'm sure you have a lot to say about this is that.
• 49:57
  That she's talking about the Seattle Seahawks and other groups you can join where their culture is all about grit.
• 50:07
  And that if you join a group where grit is part of the culture, you will personally pick that up yourself.
• 50:15
  Yes.
• 50:16
  So that's what she talks about.
• 50:17
  We are social creatures.
• 50:19
  Yes.
• 50:20
  And if we, whatever group we sort of glom onto, we start to identify with and share values and impact, imitate each other.
• 50:29
  And if you surround yourself by very hard working people, it will motivate you to be hard working as well.
• 50:37
  Whether it's like a competitive thing or just a.
• 50:40
  I need to keep up.
• 50:41
  That's right.
• 50:41
  And you will.
• 50:42
  That's right.
• 50:43
  And she talks about the Finnish people, that they have something called sisu in their culture, which reminded me of Denmark, because they had something similar.
• 50:51
  Well, theirs was about being cozy.
• 50:53
  Well, that was one of their things.
• 50:54
  But remember, they also had positive.
• 50:56
  Positive.
• 50:57
  Right.
• 50:58
  And then here, what the Finnish people have, sisu is about perseverance.
• 51:03
  It's a source of inner strength and guts and it's the ability to keep fighting when most people would quit.
• 51:10
  That's part of their culture.
• 51:11
  Yeah.
• 51:12
  So Finnish people are all very gritty.
• 51:15
  What's going on in Finland that they don't?
• 51:17
  Grit.
• 51:18
  It's a cultural thing.
• 51:19
  That's what she's talking about.
• 51:20
  If the people around you are like that.
• 51:22
  Yeah, you are.
• 51:23
  It is in part, yeah.
• 51:24
  For example, I'm Jewish and when one person in my family starts complaining, it starts a complainathon that goes on and on and on and on.
• 51:34
  So you think that's terrible.
• 51:36
  Just wait, it was a bloodbath.
• 51:38
  Oh, that.
• 51:39
  Oh my God, you don't even know.
• 51:41
  So the people around you do influence you.
• 51:43
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:44
  Yes, absolutely.
• 51:45
  And she talks about different cultures like that.
• 51:47
  Yeah.
• 51:49
  Okay.
• 51:49
  And I was really impressed.
• 51:51
  There's lots of good examples here.
• 51:54
  And then in conclusion, in conclusion, she just, you know, she talked, talks about the fact that the grittier a person is, the more healthy, emotional life they're gonna lead.
• 52:08
  I think gritty people are flexible.
• 52:10
  I think that they have an easier time with setbacks psychologically.
• 52:17
  They're not ruined by them.
• 52:19
  Because I've said this before, if you start out and everyone tells you you're dumb, there's truly nowhere to go.
• 52:24
  But that's true.
• 52:26
  That's right.
• 52:27
  Yeah.
• 52:28
  And she says that, she actually says here that, which I think is good.
• 52:32
  Finishing whatever you start without any exceptions is really a good way to miss opportunities to start different, possibly better things.
• 52:41
  No one to quit.
• 52:42
  So yeah, there may be times when you can quit.
• 52:45
  It's like, don't take this so seriously.
• 52:47
  Or so like Hard and fast.
• 52:49
  Yeah.
• 52:50
  Like, I might have loved basketball as a child, but I was never gonna play in the wnba.
• 52:56
  So if you had, you know, if we had let you move on to something else, that would have been fine.
• 53:00
  It's okay to be realistic.
• 53:02
  That's true.
• 53:02
  And practical.
• 53:03
  Right.
• 53:04
  So she does bring that up, and she says grit is not the only thing we want to impart in our kids.
• 53:10
  The other things we want are things like intrapersonal skills, which are.
• 53:15
  That includes grit, and that includes executive functions, self control, resisting temptations, that kind of thing.
• 53:23
  Interpersonal skills like gratitude, social intelligence, self control over emotions, that kind of thing.
• 53:30
  And then intellectual characteristics like curiosity, engagement with ideas.
• 53:35
  Those are all important.
• 53:37
  Yes.
• 53:38
  So it's not just grit, but grit's important.
• 53:40
  Yes, grit is important.
• 53:41
  And grit also, I think, serves to help you cultivate all of these other things.
• 53:46
  I think so, too.
• 53:47
  And she said she also talks about in her afterword, in the version we got, there were seven questions about grit.
• 53:55
  One of them that I thought was really important was super champions.
• 53:59
  The most successful people, their parents are supportive in the least intrusive way.
• 54:07
  They support, but they don't push.
• 54:09
  Champions.
• 54:10
  Not the most champions, not super champions,.
• 54:12
  Not super champions, but, you know, regular, old, everyday champions.
• 54:16
  Have parents who are hands.
• 54:18
  That's important, almost champions.
• 54:20
  Those who just don't quite make it have parents who push them and are like, you know, don't let up.
• 54:26
  And so we don't want to be that kind of parent.
• 54:30
  I think that's too much pressure.
• 54:31
  You also, like, people have to have a certain level of personal accountability.
• 54:36
  And I think when someone is pushing you constantly to do something, your impulse will be to push back, not to push forward, you know?
• 54:44
  Right.
• 54:45
  So all children need appropriately demanding challenges in combination with consistently warm and respectful support.
• 54:52
  Yes.
• 54:53
  And I thought this was interesting.
• 54:55
  In her family, what their rules are about cell phones.
• 54:58
  I always like to hear what family's rules are about phones.
• 55:01
  Yeah.
• 55:01
  Today.
• 55:02
  Okay.
• 55:02
  Her research shows that for teenagers, cell phones are the single biggest distraction from homework.
• 55:08
  Putting, you know, doing your chores, practicing your instruments, reading, doing things you're supposed to do.
• 55:14
  So their cell phone rule is, cell phones stay in the kitchen nook until everything they need to get done is done.
• 55:21
  No cell phones at meals, no cell phones when you're sitting at a restaurant with family or friends, even when you're bored.
• 55:28
  And she says, when you impose rules like this on your kids, what starts out as a rule like, don't text when I'm doing my piano practice just becomes a way of life and a personal cherished principle.
• 55:42
  I don't let distractions get in my way of work.
• 55:44
  So that relates to grit.
• 55:46
  Yeah.
• 55:47
  And the other thing she talks about, she tells a story about how in their hard thing rule, her daughter was using the viola as her hard thing, but her heart wasn't in it.
• 56:00
  And mom could see that what she really loved was baking.
• 56:03
  She told her to change to baking, and the daughter didn't want to do it because she said, well, baking is so much fun.
• 56:09
  How can.
• 56:10
  How can I do deliberate practice with baking?
• 56:12
  But then they figured out that you actually could do that.
• 56:15
  Yeah.
• 56:15
  You can enjoy your hard thing.
• 56:17
  Right.
• 56:17
  And they let her change.
• 56:19
  Yeah.
• 56:19
  I think when you enjoy your hard thing, it allows you to go deeper and push further, you know, and just be.
• 56:26
  I don't know, like, find new things.
• 56:29
  Well, I.
• 56:29
  As a parent with you, you were not a student.
• 56:33
  No.
• 56:33
  And what I did was I was always looking for ways, what you love to do outside of school, because I knew school was not gonna ever be your big thing.
• 56:44
  And you loved performing and you loved doing circus.
• 56:48
  And so I let you join a circus when you were in high school.
• 56:51
  I found ways for you to perform when you were.
• 56:54
  Because you loved that.
• 56:55
  Yeah.
• 56:56
  And that's what I pushed you towards, I guess.
• 56:59
  And what was nice about that, too, is because I was in a circus with a dollar, the requirement was you have to work as hard as everybody.
• 57:08
  In fact, you have to work harder because you're a kid.
• 57:10
  And we have to justify keeping you here.
• 57:12
  They gave you no breaks.
• 57:14
  No.
• 57:14
  And they couldn't.
• 57:15
  Because, like, again, you know, the work we were doing, you are at physical risk if you aren't conditioned properly and if you don't know how to do it, you won't perform.
• 57:25
  Because they're like, it's.
• 57:26
  Do you know how bad it was?
• 57:27
  Dangerous.
• 57:28
  Yeah, it was super dangerous to, like, if you fall and you hit the concrete, well, we're gonna get sued.
• 57:33
  So you can't.
• 57:34
  Yeah.
• 57:35
  And like, they're like, we're not gonna take your mats away until we can trust that you know how to do it.
• 57:41
  And so that was good.
• 57:42
  Cause they were like, listen, you either can or you can't.
• 57:45
  And if you wanna do it, you have to work hard.
• 57:46
  So I conditioned every day.
• 57:48
  Yeah, you worked at it and that.
• 57:50
  And I think that we have to realize that, you know, you look at your kids and you, you know, it's not that you wanna limit what they can do, but.
• 57:58
  But watch what they're interested in and Encourage those interests.
• 58:01
  Which is what I tried to do as your mom.
• 58:03
  Exactly.
• 58:04
  And we knew I wasn't gonna be in the circus forever.
• 58:06
  I just.
• 58:06
  I'm not built for the carny life.
• 58:08
  But it was a good deal.
• 58:10
  Yeah.
• 58:10
  But it was a good way to learn how to work hard at something.
• 58:15
  It was built.
• 58:16
  Grit.
• 58:16
  Yeah.
• 58:17
  And to have a standard of excellence and learn.
• 58:20
  Understand what it was to meet that standard.
• 58:22
  Have mentors, like my friend Cypher.
• 58:25
  I remember, who was a white man with rainbow dreadlocks, who was our circus.
• 58:31
  What are they called?
• 58:31
  The ringleader.
• 58:32
  Yeah, Ringleader.
• 58:33
  Yeah.
• 58:33
  Yeah.
• 58:34
  He was a character.
• 58:35
  But, yeah, it was like.
• 58:37
  It was just pretty cool that you did that.
• 58:38
  Yeah.
• 58:39
  I remember I showed up and he didn't.
• 58:41
  I don't know if he was, like, expecting me, but he's like, what are you doing here?
• 58:45
  I'm like, I'm here to join the circus.
• 58:47
  And he's like, well, what can you do?
• 58:50
  And I was like, I don't know.
• 58:51
  Give me some obstacles.
• 58:52
  Let me hit your obstacle course.
• 58:54
  Let's see how I do.
• 58:55
  And he's like, okay.
• 58:57
  And then after the first hour, he's.
• 58:58
  Like, I guess you're just in our circus now.
• 59:00
  And I was like, excellent, excellent.
• 59:02
  That's what I came here to do.
• 59:03
  Right.
• 59:04
  Right.
• 59:05
  Okay.
• 59:05
  All right.
• 59:06
  So do we recommend.
• 59:08
  Yes, I recommend this book.
• 59:09
  It's a parenting book, but it's also,.
• 59:10
  Like, more than the parenting book.
• 59:11
  Oh, yeah.
• 59:12
  It's a great book.
• 59:13
  Yeah.
• 59:14
  Well, anyway, thank you guys so much for joining us for this episode of Other People's Parenting, and we will see you next week.