Latest / Make Water Work Podcast / Catalyst Collab: Shannon Kring | Make Water Work 046

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Catalyst Collab: Shannon Kring | Make Water Work 046 · Make Water Work Podcast

0:02
I'm Isaac with 120 Water
0:04
>> and I'm Chelsea with [music] Rogue Water
0:06
and we're excited to welcome you to the
0:08
Make Water Work and Catalyst Collab.
0:29
>> [music]
0:30
>> Well, hello everyone and welcome to the
0:32
Make Water Work podcast and catalyst
0:35
collab. Um, I am so thrilled that I get
0:38
to every week or multiple times a week
0:40
spend some time with Chelsea um from
0:43
Rogue Water Lab. Um, really diving into
0:46
what the Catalyst experience is, um,
0:50
which is a I'll say conference so that
0:53
it uh, orients folks to what it is. But
0:55
it really is just a unique experience
0:58
and um where there's guides happens
1:01
every year. This year it's happening in
1:03
September in San Diego. Last year it was
1:05
Milwaukee. Um and I'm excited to be
1:08
there. But there are all these guides,
1:11
some of them for from the industry,
1:13
water industry. And it's especially
1:15
interesting because Catalyst brings
1:17
folks from outside of the industry
1:19
because there's a lot that we learn when
1:21
we expand um open our aperture to learn
1:25
from other disciplines. Um it really
1:27
gets the creative problem solving
1:30
moving. And so Chelsea, this has been so
1:33
fun to do um together and um would love
1:36
for you to introduce us to today's
1:39
guest.
1:40
Yeah, this one is especially exciting
1:43
because um one just a really amazing
1:45
person with a great story, but someone
1:48
the water sector normally wouldn't be in
1:50
rooms with to meet. So, we have Shannon
1:52
Cring. She's an Emmy winning documentary
1:55
filmmaker, director, she's president of
1:57
Red Queen Media, and she's actually um
2:00
in order to be here with us today taking
2:02
um some time out of her film tour. Uh,
2:05
right now she's on tour for two
2:07
different films. One of which is a
2:08
documentary feature film called Nine
2:10
Little Indians, executive produced by
2:12
Leonardo DiCaprio and Tony Robbins. So
2:14
that's really cool. And she's in that
2:16
space. She has other well-known
2:18
documentary um called End of the Line,
2:20
the women rock um about indigenous water
2:24
protectors. Um so I met Shannon years
2:27
ago when she was doing some work on
2:29
water affordability. Um, and over that
2:32
time of getting to know her, of course,
2:34
had her as a guide at Catalyst in 2024.
2:36
But what really impresses me the most
2:38
with Shannon, um, is just the genuine,
2:41
like so genuine human connection she
2:44
brings to her work and the genuine care.
2:47
Um, so that is what I'm most excited to
2:49
get into today and this talk. So
2:52
Shannon, welcome. Thanks so much for
2:53
being here. And where are you uh joining
2:57
in from today?
2:58
>> I'm at home in Los Angeles. It's a rare
3:00
moment when I'm actually home in in the
3:03
office. So, I'm really happy to be here
3:06
today. So, good to see you again.
3:09
>> Yeah. Well, this is this is um yeah,
3:12
this is an exciting um conversation
3:14
because storytelling is really
3:16
important. Um and we know every guest
3:20
that we've had has a story about how
3:22
water found them. And you can feel free
3:24
to answer this however however you want.
3:26
How how has water interfaced with with
3:30
you and your work? Um, and what's your
3:31
relationship to water?
3:33
>> Well, I'll give you a little backstory
3:35
on water, just the the role it's had in
3:38
my life. I happened to grow up in the
3:41
north woods of Wisconsin, and our home
3:44
was downhill from an auto salvage, a
3:48
junkyard. And so, not only did we have
3:52
iron in our water and all kinds of
3:54
things and and it smelled, we had this
3:57
oily residue on the water at all times.
4:00
>> And so, I was, you know, a person who
4:04
um, you know, had the yellow clothes
4:07
whenever I had something white. Um, the
4:10
the smell of it. I can remember going
4:12
off to college and uh a hairdresser gave
4:15
me a little packet of something to
4:17
demineralize my hair and I can still
4:20
remember using that in a shower
4:23
>> just having this orange uh brown orange
4:26
just coming off of my hair and I'm like,
4:28
"Oh my gosh, I'm blonde."
4:31
Um, so there was that and then I went on
4:34
and I eventually was living in Honduras
4:38
and I was living in the second largest
4:40
city in Honduras and the water there
4:42
cannot be, you know, you can't just
4:44
drink out of the tap, put it that way.
4:46
And so it, you know, got E. coli and all
4:49
kinds of parasites, etc. So that was a
4:53
whole new experience, not even brushing
4:54
your teeth with the water. then ended up
4:57
moving to Helsinki, Finland, and spent a
5:00
lot of time in there and Oslo, some of
5:02
the best water in the world, where I
5:05
just remember being like, "Oh my gosh,
5:06
you can drink right out of the tap." And
5:09
so, I guess I've had a unique experience
5:11
in that I know what it's like to have
5:13
water challenges to, you know, my
5:16
parents still are going and filling up
5:19
jugs of water at friends houses even
5:21
though they've got a a filtration system
5:24
and all of that. it's still just not
5:26
great water. And so um I' I've really
5:29
had both ends of the spectrum. And then
5:32
professionally I um back um gosh, this
5:36
is seven years back now ended up getting
5:38
hired to make documentary films for the
5:40
federal government. And I did a lot of
5:43
filming for the White House and for
5:45
Department of Health and Human Services.
5:47
And under that I covered a number of
5:50
programs but two of them that concerned
5:53
water. One rural community development
5:55
RCD uh which helps with of course the
5:58
tech aspect and infrastructure basically
6:02
um in rural communities and then
6:04
something called LIEWAP. I don't know if
6:06
you guys remember that but it was the
6:08
lowincome household water assistance
6:10
program. And so I got to travel across
6:13
the country many, many times for years
6:16
actually covering water stories. I think
6:18
I did that for about six years, six and
6:20
a half years. And so I got to see just
6:23
things that I had no idea about. Um,
6:26
obviously not an expert in water, but I
6:29
feel like I have a really good grasp of
6:30
what it's like both from the user
6:32
perspective and then the operator. I've
6:35
interviewed operators across the
6:37
country. I've interviewed people that
6:39
are, you know, working on solutions in
6:42
challenging situations and it's just
6:45
been so enlightening. It's uh it's a
6:48
space that I find so not only
6:50
interesting and of course crucial.
6:52
What's more important than water? Um I
6:54
really like the people. I was surprised
6:57
to see that people work in water
6:59
actually care because I can tell you
7:02
from from my perspective being someone
7:04
who, you know, opens the bill and it's
7:06
like, "Oh gosh, the water's $700 for two
7:09
months and we have two people in our
7:11
home." Um, you know, you don't think
7:13
about it that these are actual people
7:15
and that there's an expense, a great
7:17
expense to getting water into my home.
7:20
And so I I really enjoy telling stories
7:24
that look at all aspects of it.
7:27
>> Yeah, that's what I think is so unique
7:29
about you. When I met you, I met you
7:31
when you were doing those film series on
7:33
the low-inccome assistance, which I have
7:35
some questions about a little bit later.
7:37
Um,
7:37
>> yeah,
7:38
>> but you know, I forgot to mention too,
7:40
like you have work in over 70 countries.
7:42
like you just have this really um vast
7:46
like categories that you have worked on
7:49
um which is really amazing but also that
7:52
you're able to bridge the gap um between
7:56
consumers, customers, neighbors,
7:58
residents and the water sector
8:00
professionals. You know, when you
8:01
started talking about your own personal
8:03
experience growing up, there's probably
8:05
a lot of water industry people thinking,
8:07
"Oh, here it comes. Like we're going to
8:09
get dogged on again." Um, but you're
8:12
able to talk about these complex matters
8:14
about yes, here's what end user
8:17
experience has been and and is in some
8:19
places that needs improved and here's
8:21
the hard work and also dedication of
8:23
people like it's it's um more than one
8:25
part, you know, of this uh complex story
8:27
and you've been able to do that really
8:29
well. Before I ask you about some of
8:32
that, I think when people probably heard
8:34
that you worked on a film with Leonardo
8:37
DiCaprio and Tony Robbins, they want to
8:39
know more about that. Um, so can you
8:41
tell us about Nine Little Indians? I
8:43
know that in itself a heartfelt,
8:46
heartbreaking, I think story. So, um,
8:49
just a little bit about that work that
8:51
you have going on right now.
8:52
>> Well, that can be traced back to water
8:54
as well. Um, because I was filming, uh,
8:57
my documentary, End of the Line, the
8:58
women of Standing Rock, about the
9:00
indigenous water protectors that were
9:03
standing up against the $3.8 billion
9:05
Dakota Access Pipeline. They were
9:07
concerned about their water. um the the
9:10
pipeline leaked five times in the first
9:12
three days of operation. It was a really
9:14
big deal. And so I covered that story
9:16
for a couple of years actually. But
9:18
while making that film, I got a call
9:21
from another South Dakota reservation,
9:23
the Yankton Sue Tribe, and the tribal
9:26
members told me, um, we're doing some
9:28
water construction at our school. We're
9:30
putting in new pipes and we've unearthed
9:34
some more bodies of kids that never made
9:36
it home from the Indian boarding school
9:39
that existed here. And actually the
9:41
school is still in operation under
9:43
management by the tribe now. But for for
9:46
many many decades it was um an Indian
9:49
boarding school and if people aren't
9:51
familiar and most people aren't uh about
9:54
that program you know there were 526 of
9:57
these schools across the country and
9:59
when John F. Kennedy did a report on the
10:02
schools um it showed that abuse was
10:05
taking place in 98% sexual and physical
10:08
abuse in 98% of those schools. It's a
10:11
topic I've been covering. I've done well
10:13
more than a thousand interviews across
10:14
the country with survivors and I started
10:17
telling the story of this one particular
10:20
school and all of the kids who didn't
10:22
make it home and just horrendous stories
10:25
of what happened there. And so
10:27
>> uh for me my other work you know these
10:30
water stories are like a positive
10:32
solutionoriented
10:34
um endeavor and you know a lot of my
10:37
other stories are not. I'm always
10:39
looking at the best and worse um with
10:42
regard to human behavior I guess and so
10:45
it it makes my work really fascinating
10:48
but and that's what really got me into
10:50
working in a lot of tribal communities.
10:53
I've been immersed in that world for
10:54
more than 30 years now and telling
10:57
stories in it for about 20 now.
11:00
>> Wow.
11:00
>> Yeah. I was going to ask you more too
11:02
about that end of the line work, but
11:04
also specifically like the link with
11:07
tribal communities um you know in the
11:10
water space. We have a lot of utilities
11:12
um needing to work with either their
11:14
nearby tribal governments or um
11:18
>> uh just tribal cultures maybe if they
11:20
don't have their own government or water
11:22
system and really struggling to do that.
11:24
I hear a lot of questions and people
11:25
kind of looking for resources. You and I
11:27
have talked before when I've learned a
11:29
lot of really interesting things from
11:30
you from your experiences, but we've
11:32
talked before about the importance of
11:34
cultural intelligence on social norms um
11:38
and any community, right, that you go in
11:40
um but your work specifically with
11:42
tribes. Just wondering if you could talk
11:44
a little bit about how that important
11:46
that's been and you being able to tell
11:48
their stories.
11:49
>> Yeah. So um I think people are mistaken
11:52
in believing that all native people are
11:54
the same and that you know if you're a
11:56
tribal member you all have the same
11:59
interests etc. And there are some
12:00
commonalities certainly just the way
12:03
water is viewed for instance pretty much
12:06
across the board throughout Turtle
12:07
Island as it's referred to which would
12:09
be you know North America, Central and
12:12
South um water is viewed not just as
12:16
something sacred but really as a
12:18
relative and it's viewed as in some
12:21
areas and with some indigenous people as
12:23
an actual living uh breathing being with
12:28
an intelligence of its own and as such
12:31
it needs to be taken care of and so
12:33
that's kind of a commonality and it's
12:35
not just in the US or or in the Americas
12:38
um the Mauy people for instance New
12:40
Zealand actually granted as a result of
12:42
how the Mauy look at um water they they
12:45
granted personage or personhood I guess
12:47
they're calling it to water so it has
12:50
the same rights as people there now and
12:52
so um you know I've been really blessed
12:55
to experience many different cultures
12:57
and how they view it But just dealing
13:00
with tribal water, uh, it's just not one
13:03
thing or one way of being when you show
13:05
up. So, I can give you an example of
13:08
that. I had never worked um, back, this
13:11
is years ago, but I had never worked on
13:14
um, this Apache reservation um, in
13:17
Arizona. And typically when you are
13:21
coming into a community and you're
13:23
working with the tribal leadership, you
13:26
come in what's called a good way. And
13:28
part of that in some areas is you come
13:32
in and you smudge, you sage yourself
13:34
before you come in.
13:36
>> And even if they don't see you do it,
13:38
they might do it for you when you come
13:40
in. Um or you might do it on your own.
13:43
But I can tell you when I showed up at
13:45
the San Carlos Apache reservation, um
13:48
the gentleman who was dealing with all
13:51
of the water issues said, "Oh, did you
13:52
just do sage?" And I said, "Yes." And
13:55
he's like, "Let's get that smell off of
13:56
you." And he said, "Here, that'll be
13:59
viewed as you're bringing in bad energy
14:01
with you because why would you need to
14:03
smudge yourself if you didn't have bad
14:06
energy? So, where did you come from
14:08
before this? Who were you with? What
14:09
were you doing?" And it was just like a
14:12
wake up for me even after decades of
14:14
working um you know with different
14:17
tribes. I hadn't been to this particular
14:19
reservation and they had their own ways
14:21
of being
14:22
>> and um you know it's just a matter of
14:25
learning that and I know that that is a
14:27
big task because people who are dealing
14:30
with these water issues are so busy and
14:33
dealing with sometimes as I learned
14:35
really um huge things and things that
14:39
probably keep them up at night every
14:41
night. And so having to learn this way
14:45
of being is a whole added layer that
14:47
they don't have time for. And yet it is
14:49
so crucial.
14:52
>> I Yeah, I love that. Like there's I came
14:55
from outside of the water industry. Um
14:58
in 2019 I was in um sales and marketing
15:01
tech and then entered the entered the
15:03
water industry and similarly really
15:06
just fell in love with the with the
15:09
quality of the character of of water
15:11
professionals. But the thing that really
15:14
always stuck out to me was how
15:17
so many technologies we we try to
15:19
normalize things and make them universal
15:22
and scale. But with with this, it's so
15:26
important to understand that they are
15:29
keepers of their place, whether that's a
15:31
water utility in a town or a city or a
15:34
tribe. That like place
15:37
matters not just because it matters to
15:39
them from an internal value standpoint,
15:41
but like the source of the water, the
15:43
chemistry, all of that is just has to be
15:45
taken into account. Um, and um, it's
15:49
it's one of the things that I really
15:51
love about
15:53
water in general is that it takes on the
15:56
characteristics of the place and it
15:58
makes us grapple with like how are we
16:00
going to honor it, value it, use it, all
16:04
those things and it forces us to have
16:05
really important conversations. Um,
16:08
>> yeah.
16:08
>> Yeah. Yeah. Place is super important.
16:10
and that story and your like perspective
16:12
on it Isaac. Uh bringing me back, you
16:15
know, in in uh to to water
16:17
communications and relations. So Rogue's
16:19
work is with utilities on that. And so
16:22
many times people want templates. What
16:24
is the template for how I communicate
16:26
about lead? What is the template for how
16:28
I talk to an angry customer?
16:30
>> Where do you live? What's that
16:32
customer's background? What did they
16:33
experience growing up? Like there is so
16:35
much more human to this work. And in a
16:38
world of engineering and technology and
16:42
numbers where things uh I forgot how you
16:45
just worded it but uh try to
16:47
>> yeah we design things for scale but not
16:50
for specificity or relevance. engagement
16:53
needs to be specific. And so that's one
16:56
been one of my biggest struggles in just
16:57
working with the industry on this is
17:00
trying to meet the need for yes, there
17:02
are some general things we can talk
17:04
about on how to communicate and engage
17:05
better versus the actual need if you
17:08
want to build a relationship and trust
17:10
is uh individualization and and that is
17:13
such a great story and example. Shannon,
17:15
>> thanks. Yeah, one of the simple things
17:17
that I've learned is that people really
17:19
appreciate when you learn what is their
17:22
word or term for water.
17:24
>> So, you just know that. Just don't show
17:26
up and call it water. If you show that
17:28
you've done some research and you
17:30
actually know how they regard it, that
17:32
goes far. And I think showing up is just
17:35
like that's a huge part of it. Just how
17:37
do you show up in that community? It's
17:39
not just tribal communities. I can give
17:42
you an example and this is really I I
17:45
don't want to throw anyone under the
17:47
bus. This was an honest mistake that was
17:50
made. Um I was really honored to tell an
17:54
in-depth story in Loun County, Alabama
17:58
um with the government and Loun County
18:00
has had since the 70s toxic toxic water.
18:05
There aren't kids born without hookworm,
18:08
put it that way. And this has been going
18:10
on for decades because you've got
18:12
roughly four I think it's 475 roughly uh
18:16
households that have raw sewage in their
18:18
backyard and when they are giving their
18:22
baby a bath sometimes the sewage will
18:24
bubble up in the sink and we saw it
18:27
firsthand um throughout the county. It
18:29
is an unbelievable story. We we filmed
18:32
creepy crawies in the water in people's
18:35
backyards and it was just absolutely
18:38
>> just unbelievable. And so uh we come to
18:42
the community and because it was an
18:44
extensive long documentary that we were
18:47
making about this for the government um
18:49
a lot of the officials wanted to come
18:51
and um that's a benefit also of working
18:54
in media is because you're used to
18:56
dealing with a lot of people. You can
18:57
often bring people in who have not been
19:00
successful in coming into a certain
19:03
community. They don't know how to do it.
19:04
And so I'm always happy to serve in that
19:07
role and I always clear it with people
19:09
on the other end first. But it's been a
19:11
really actually quite amazing experience
19:13
doing that. So when we show up in Loun
19:16
County though, um we had a bunch of
19:19
black SUVs
19:21
and so all of these people pull up in
19:23
these and people literally were running
19:26
in their houses. People were locking the
19:28
doors, closing the curtains. It was like
19:32
a movie where people are just scattering
19:34
only to find out that you can be
19:36
arrested in that community for not
19:39
having your sewer up to par and no one
19:42
can afford to replace their sewage
19:45
systems there and so they all thought
19:47
that they were going to be arrested. So
19:49
how apt do you think people are going to
19:51
be to have a conversation? So, um,
19:54
again, it's just that how are you
19:56
showing up in a community? And sometimes
19:58
these mistakes can't be avoided and
20:00
sometimes they can. Um, that one was
20:03
really quite tricky um because of the
20:06
trust level. And then you say, "Oh, by
20:07
the way, and they're from the
20:08
government, these people, you know,
20:10
they're they're from the federal
20:11
government." And see how that goes over
20:13
in some communities where there have
20:15
been, you know, struggles historically.
20:18
Um that particular story um just being
20:21
there by the way I will never forget
20:23
that that was just shocking and I got
20:26
hooked by even though I was wearing
20:28
waves and everything I got sick a number
20:31
of us got sick and it's not pleasant and
20:34
and my mind didn't work for about 3
20:37
weeks where I could tell I had cognitive
20:39
issues and then you you know hear things
20:41
about test scores in that area being low
20:44
with the kids etc. And it's like we need
20:47
to really look at the role that water
20:49
plays in every facet of an area because
20:53
of course if you can't think clearly
20:55
because you've got hookworm or whatever
20:57
that may be uh yeah you're not going to
21:00
be testing so great.
21:02
>> Um
21:03
>> these are important things to notice.
21:05
>> Yeah. And and I think that story too,
21:06
just the interconnectedness of policies
21:08
and outcomes and are we thinking like
21:10
when policies or rules and regulations
21:12
are met, whether that's at a utility or
21:14
county or or bigger level. Are we
21:16
thinking about the actual impact and
21:18
then wondering why no one will talk to
21:20
us, right? I think that's really good.
21:22
That also reminds me of um the story I
21:26
wanted to share about a moment at
21:28
Catalyst 2024 with you and this moment
21:31
has stuck with me. There were a lot of
21:33
you had two different roles there and it
21:35
was just um really really great a lot of
21:37
great feedback but one was at the very
21:39
end and I didn't even fully know what
21:42
you were going to do um because I just
21:44
trusted you I guess um and you read
21:48
letters from customers and when I heard
21:50
you say you were going to do that and I
21:52
had known some of your um work because
21:54
we had talked and and I think I had you
21:56
on a podcast and stuff too um I was like
21:59
oh crap like she's gonna it's going to
22:01
be these angry customers that had these
22:03
really bad experiences because why would
22:05
someone not be angry with some of these
22:07
experience that you've been able um to
22:09
report on or tell about. But that's not
22:12
what you brought us. Like they were um
22:14
very heartfelt letters and I don't know
22:18
if you remember any of them but this
22:19
from customers thanking the water
22:22
sector. And when I tell you multiple
22:25
teary eyes in that room because our
22:28
people don't get thanked and they are
22:30
going to work every day in you know
22:33
different communities that's not the
22:35
example you just gave to protect public
22:37
health and ensure these things are not
22:39
happening and it it was right up at the
22:42
ending of catalyst which is a big deal
22:44
for us of how we end. And um I
22:47
distinctly remember one I was like
22:49
looking at the room and I was like, "Oh
22:50
wow." Like everyone's really in their
22:52
moment. So we and Catalyst were outside
22:54
and the uh the attorney for Detroit
22:58
Water comes up to me and just balling
23:01
just balling u and just giving me a hug.
23:04
And so one I thought that was so special
23:06
um of you being able to bring that to
23:09
us. Um so I don't know if you remember
23:11
anything specifically about that. I know
23:12
one was from a kid and that was kind of
23:14
funny. Um,
23:16
>> yeah, I completely forgot uh about doing
23:19
that and I should pull those out because
23:22
I still have copies of those letters.
23:24
But I just remember this one elderly
23:26
woman who had said um you know, you guys
23:30
have the most important job of all. And
23:32
and the way she looked at it is um
23:35
caring for water is as important as
23:37
caring for an infant um or an elderly
23:40
family member. it's a it's a relative
23:43
that really um matters and so the role
23:46
of doing that is the most important role
23:49
and that is how a lot of people look at
23:51
it. Um
23:52
>> the thing is that they just don't know
23:54
who are these people and I really don't
23:56
think most people think about the fact
23:58
that there are actual people that are
24:00
doing this work that are behind this
24:02
work and making sure things get turned
24:04
back on or whatever that may be. Uh it's
24:07
it's just it's a fascinating thing and
24:10
and how incredible if we were opening up
24:13
those lines of communication so that the
24:16
enduser could have that dialogue um with
24:19
people. I actually coordinated the first
24:22
ever listening session um for the
24:25
government um between tribal water
24:28
leadership and government officials.
24:31
>> That was fascinating. Um, there were
24:34
probably about 2,000 people that tuned
24:37
in to the live event and it was really
24:41
brave of the people involved in the
24:44
government to say, um, yeah, we're going
24:47
to listen and we're just going to listen
24:50
>> to what you have to say about tribal
24:52
water issues. And they really did have
24:54
to listen to a lot. And a lot of it was,
24:57
I would say 95% of it was constructive.
25:01
one man went a little bit uh rogue on
25:04
it. Um but um you know, you can
25:07
understand when it's
25:09
>> you know, years and years and years of
25:11
these issues, but if we're not talking
25:13
about them and not considering that
25:15
there are actual human beings on those
25:18
sides, um you know, we won't get
25:20
anywhere. And so I'm I'm really blessed
25:22
with this work I'm able to do. Yeah,
25:25
that goes back to that aspect of like
25:27
where you're talking about how how you
25:30
show up matters and the posture that you
25:32
take. And I it's
25:35
we've talked about it a lot with a lot
25:37
of our guests like we know it's so hard
25:41
to slow down and make the space to
25:44
listen to do the listening part of the
25:47
communications. Um, so that you have
25:51
awareness of how how you're going to
25:53
have a conversation versus just here's
25:56
what you need to know. Take our word for
25:58
it. Trust us, check. Um,
26:01
>> yes. Yes. And I'm so glad you're
26:03
bringing that up because it is about
26:05
slowing that down. And again, I
26:06
recognize that people are so busy and
26:09
they have very little time, but yes, how
26:12
you show up matters. Simple, simple
26:14
things. I cannot tell you how
26:17
communities look at this one. Um, when
26:20
you show up and they say, um, would you
26:23
like a cup of coffee? So, that's a
26:25
really simple example, but one that
26:27
those of us who are in homes of of
26:30
people across the country, you face that
26:32
all the time. Okay. So, let's say you're
26:34
walking into this home and you see that
26:36
this person is impoverished. And I'll
26:38
give you a very specific example of a
26:40
home where I was doing a water story. um
26:42
not for the government but for another
26:44
purpose. And this woman, you could see
26:46
that she was refilling her curig cups.
26:50
She was refilling them with with coffee
26:53
and remaking it in the machine. And so
26:57
normally you'd be like, I don't want to
26:58
take this woman's coffee, right?
27:00
>> And so at first I said, no, this is
27:04
years ago before I learned this
27:05
important lesson. Um I said, oh no, no,
27:08
thank you. I've already had coffee
27:09
today. She immediately changed and she
27:13
just seemed really weird and I just
27:15
said, "You know what? On second thought,
27:17
if we have time, I would love a cup of
27:19
coffee."
27:20
>> And she just immediately brightened. She
27:23
said, "I was so offended that you didn't
27:25
want my coffee."
27:27
>> She looked at it as that her coffee
27:29
wasn't good enough for this person
27:31
coming from Los Angeles. Um, also some
27:35
people are really
27:37
>> excited even to welcome you into their
27:39
life and their work. They're offering
27:41
you a cookie.
27:42
>> Um, they they might have made that
27:44
cookie for you and to turn it down is
27:48
not a gracious move as you may think it
27:50
is given whatever that situation is
27:52
you're walking into. And so, um, yeah,
27:55
I've I've done all kinds of things. I've
27:58
I've changed diapers uh while on a a
28:01
shoot about water. It's just it's just
28:03
how do you interact and and
28:05
understanding what that community comes
28:07
from and they are all very very
28:09
different.
28:11
>> Yes. The power of being able to say I
28:13
can receive from you too. Like it it's
28:16
that aspect of being like I'm not here
28:18
just to
28:21
>> exactly
28:22
>> to say I have something you need. It's
28:25
I'm willing to receive too. Um,
28:28
>> yeah, we're we're
28:29
>> and listening, building that extra,
28:32
sorry, Chelsea, building that extra to
28:34
listen and to really learn their story.
28:37
Very few people, you know, we're sitting
28:39
here on a podcast where people who are
28:41
in these interactive roles where people
28:44
are talking to us a lot. A lot of people
28:46
are lonely and a lot of people have no
28:49
one ask them, "What is your day like?
28:51
What is your life like? What has this
28:53
experience been?" And so just
28:55
acknowledging that and spending that
28:57
time to build relationships, that's
28:59
really really important in tribal
29:02
waterwork. It's important especially in
29:04
the south. I find uh many of these
29:07
communities in the deep south, it's the
29:09
old traditional way of doing things
29:11
where you're building relationships. And
29:13
as hard as it might be to add in that
29:15
extra 45 minutes, an hour even to that
29:19
meeting, um it it will just pay off in
29:23
ways that you would never know.
29:25
>> I'm so glad you said all of that and I
29:27
just really hope people are hearing that
29:29
and connecting with it right now. I also
29:32
know there's probably some people
29:33
hearing it and thinking I don't have
29:35
that time or just utterly scared at
29:39
thinking, oh, what would I do if I were
29:41
in some of these um examples where
29:43
Shannon was and I was having to relate.
29:46
Um so I was one like to validate that I
29:48
get work the work is scary like talking
29:50
to people, listening to people. This is
29:52
scary stuff and I hate that we call it
29:54
soft skills because it's it's really
29:56
hard. It's really important. But it also
29:58
reminds me of the importance of
29:59
partnership. So, Rogue Water Lab has
30:01
four pillars of public trust. We've
30:03
talked about almost all of them today.
30:04
It's transparency, relationships,
30:07
showing up, which we've talked a lot
30:08
about. Um, and earning advocates. And
30:11
that's where the partnerships come in.
30:13
You've demonstrated a great example of,
30:15
you know, maybe we're not always the
30:17
best welcoming, friendly messengers just
30:20
based off either our um people's
30:24
experiences or things like your utility
30:26
or your company or whatever. um past
30:29
experiences, right? Or just traditional
30:32
we we haven't been out engaging. And so
30:34
that's where we need to be working with
30:36
partners, whether it's someone like
30:37
Shannon, whether it's a school, whether
30:40
it's just the community advocate that
30:43
everyone knows in that neighborhood from
30:44
the grocery store, right? Um and I know
30:47
that that's been, you know, the same in
30:50
your work. I'm also curious more about
30:54
some of that work. you really went all
30:56
across the nation telling the water
30:57
affordability story. Um, and just how
31:02
some I think you know the water sector
31:04
would be curious how some of those
31:06
residents who were having affordability
31:09
issues and and we're getting some help
31:11
from that temporary unfortunately
31:12
program but just how they viewed uh
31:15
their utility providers or what they
31:17
even what what they call you know how
31:19
that relationship was in some of those
31:21
places you were
31:24
>> I've heard them called all sorts of
31:26
things. Um obviously when it's a person
31:29
whose inner rears on their bill. Um, I
31:32
can tell you that underneath the anger,
31:35
and I've I've been there when someone's
31:37
gone off on the the other side of it,
31:40
um, telling the story when we show up
31:42
and and that water provider is actually
31:44
there on site. I've been in those
31:46
awkward situations where the person just
31:48
goes off, the customer. Um, but
31:52
underneath all of that is almost always
31:55
this this shame. I I saw a lot of shame,
31:59
just a tremendous amount of shame, which
32:00
is really unfortunate um in this work.
32:04
Um
32:05
>> yeah,
32:05
>> across the country, in every different
32:08
type of community, not just rural, not
32:11
just tribal um you know, people in
32:14
cities that for whatever reason got
32:16
behind on their bills and underneath
32:18
that is a frustration and again um a
32:22
lack of understanding what it takes. I
32:25
got to learn what it takes um just to
32:28
get water coming through that faucet.
32:31
But most people, I would say 99.9%
32:34
of the public has no idea. And I think
32:37
if on the water side, if people were
32:40
spending more time in getting out that
32:42
message on really what it takes. People
32:45
just don't understand it. And once
32:46
there's an understanding, that's where I
32:48
see that magic happening and these
32:50
really uh important conversations that
32:53
do shift things and everyone can walk
32:56
out of those meetings feeling great.
32:58
I've seen it repeatedly, but I've seen
33:01
what it looks like in the beginning. And
33:03
if you're not a person who has um had
33:06
much experience and how to talk with
33:08
different types of people, how to
33:09
diffuse really awful situations, I
33:13
understand that that would be horrible.
33:14
But to Chelsea's point, that is the role
33:17
of partnering with people. You know,
33:19
there are those of us who are happily
33:20
serve in that role. I don't want to call
33:22
it mediation. It's bridge building and
33:26
serving as that bridge between the
33:27
worlds. That's how I look at myself and
33:30
what I do. And and um you know, finding
33:32
a way to work with those people and then
33:35
you'll know it for your own you know,
33:37
sake. You can do it on your own, but I
33:39
get that it's scary. I've been told by
33:42
water operators and people at various
33:44
levels dealing with water, working in
33:47
water, um just they're terrified at
33:50
going into certain communities or
33:52
talking to people in general. And I see
33:55
the difference in communities where the
33:58
people actually are wellversed in
34:01
speaking with their customers. Atlanta
34:03
comes to mind. I did a story in Atlanta
34:06
and um you know that guy actually knew
34:08
the customers. He would come out, I'm
34:10
blanking on his name, he was so
34:11
wonderful. And he he knew the people by
34:14
name. He knew the people who were
34:15
struggling and who were trying to fix
34:18
things, etc. And I I know it's a huge
34:20
busy um community, but you know, just to
34:24
take that time to give that human face
34:26
and to show the care. Um, usually that's
34:30
where it ends up once there's the
34:32
discussion. But I think we get stuck at
34:34
not having that discussion and therefore
34:37
the customer feels like
34:39
>> I can't pay my effing bill. What What do
34:42
you want me to do? There's there's
34:43
nothing I can do about it. And
34:45
>> yeah,
34:45
>> I've um gone along on stories where
34:48
people are stealing water. I have
34:50
accompanied people. That's a thing. the
34:52
amount of shame involved with that with
34:54
having to go and,
34:56
>> you know, take from a hose and and um I
34:59
I'll never forget a story in North
35:01
Carolina um this amazing mother of two
35:05
teenage boys and her absolute shame with
35:08
for the first time in her life due to a
35:10
medical condition um not being able to
35:13
pay her bills and having the water cut
35:15
off and just the the shame she felt
35:19
around that and tried to shield her boys
35:21
from the truth of what was happening.
35:23
And
35:24
>> you know, that's the reality for a lot
35:26
of people.
35:27
>> And there's also the people who live I
35:29
live in a beautiful neighborhood um here
35:31
in Los Angeles. And um you know, we've
35:34
been having some burst pipes here
35:35
because I don't need to educate any of
35:37
your listeners about the infrastructure
35:39
and the age of our systems. And we've
35:42
been having burst pipes. We had on our
35:44
street burst pipes some months back. So
35:47
this construction that went on for weeks
35:49
and this pounding and you know the whole
35:51
house shaking that sort of thing and
35:53
again it's about communicating.
35:56
There was one man who worked on that job
36:00
and um you know he actually talked to
36:02
people and was really honest and I think
36:05
that's goes to your transparency point
36:07
Chelsea um about being transparent. He
36:10
said um yeah the letter said it's going
36:12
to take three weeks. it's really gonna
36:15
take six weeks. You need to be prepared
36:18
and just that honesty and and here's why
36:20
and explaining the why of it
36:23
>> and um I get that you probably don't
36:25
have time to be doing that one-on-one
36:27
with people, but what about if we were
36:30
using the power of media and social
36:32
media to make some transparent uh
36:36
announcements for instance?
36:39
>> I don't know. It's a it's a big topic
36:41
and I understand it's it all comes with
36:43
a cost but what is the expense not like
36:47
I that's literally a line in some of my
36:50
training if we look at the like at think
36:54
of public trust as an asset and what's
36:56
the cost of failure and yeah it's so
36:58
good and I even think in a lot of your
37:00
examples it makes me um sometimes I ask
37:03
utilities when we put out these
37:05
communications we're usually sitting
37:06
behind a desk right what if we had to
37:09
person to person, face to face, tell
37:12
somebody these things. Like, we would
37:14
talk completely differently. We would
37:16
communicate and message completely
37:17
differently. And so, yeah, sure, you
37:19
might not have the time to do all this
37:21
oneonone every time, but what if you
37:23
just pause and look at all the different
37:24
types of common communications and go
37:27
deliver that personally and see what
37:29
that might change about these templates
37:31
we put out? Um, I think that one thing
37:33
alone could really change the water
37:35
sector.
37:35
>> It would. I I'm convinced it would.
37:38
Well, the last thing I wanted to ask you
37:40
for the sake of time and you've kind of
37:42
um you've given some answers to this uh
37:45
but just curious if you have one more.
37:47
>> You know, you again are really unique in
37:49
that you relate to and have told the
37:51
stories of the people and you relate to
37:53
and have told the stories of the people
37:55
working in water um to do this.
37:59
What like one advice would you give them
38:01
if they want to do some of the things
38:03
that you've asked and talk about? Is
38:06
there a tip or like one takeaway or
38:08
advice from your experience that you
38:09
would tell the water sector?
38:11
>> Um, I guess just listen. Uh, I
38:14
understand that if you're going into a
38:16
community, uh, you're there to relay
38:19
information or to gain information,
38:21
whatever it is, but the importance of
38:23
listening, just asking a question.
38:26
Again, I know it sounds so simple, but
38:28
coming into someone's life and
38:30
[clears throat] asking them, what is
38:32
your experience with water? what is has
38:35
your experience been working with our
38:36
utility and really listening to that and
38:39
then trying to explain and it just it
38:42
diffuses everything. It creates such a a
38:46
just a better harmonious community and
38:50
I've seen communities where they're
38:52
doing it so well. I've seen I I can
38:54
think of like uh in Delaware in
38:56
Ellenale, Delaware where they're doing
38:58
all of this water work and I've seen
39:01
okay wow this is a community where now
39:03
they're they've formed these community
39:05
groups that are working with water and
39:07
they meet with the people who are giving
39:09
the new technology and all of them
39:11
working together um you know I've been I
39:15
think of like Aquacas Mohawk tribe in
39:17
New York where again it's like that
39:20
where you're meeting with the community
39:22
the people who are actually making it
39:23
happen are sitting down and listening
39:27
and talking to the people who are
39:29
actually using the utility. It's so
39:31
simple and it is time consuming but it's
39:35
so important. So I guess just listening
39:37
and understanding that people don't want
39:40
to be People don't want to not
39:44
pay their bills. People don't want be
39:47
calling and screaming.
39:49
They want to have water and that is he
39:53
to most people the belief is that that
39:56
is a basic human right you know the
39:58
whole um you know the the battlecry
40:01
during the standing rock protest mini
40:03
wony water is life you know living by
40:06
that water is life and it's something we
40:08
all need and so how can we work together
40:11
to better care for that resource I think
40:14
is the the best starting point
40:18
Yeah,
40:20
best starting point. And that is a great
40:22
place to close our conversation. We
40:25
could talk for for such a long time. I
40:28
think what I've what I've really
40:29
appreciated in in um talking to you too
40:32
is just like it it is an exercise of of
40:36
giving the gift of dignity to um to the
40:40
folks that that you um allow allow them
40:44
to have their story told. Um that's what
40:47
I it seems like that's what a lot of
40:49
people are looking for is like just
40:51
looking for some dignity. Um I want my
40:53
dignity. Um and um yeah, thank you for
40:57
for all the work you do in leading that
41:01
with so much empathy. Um and then
41:04
bringing that um practice and
41:06
encouragement. Before we close off,
41:08
>> yeah, Shannon, if people are interested,
41:11
where can they find you or or
41:13
>> red queenmedia.com
41:15
and um I have a Vimeo page. It's also
41:18
red queen media. You can find that
41:20
through the website though. And um I've
41:22
got dozens of water stories there. And
41:25
uh I love telling these stories. If
41:27
there's anyone out there listening who's
41:29
looking for either some sort of bridge
41:31
building work and or media work, I I
41:35
really miss that. As much as I love
41:37
making this beautiful feature film, you
41:39
know, with Leo and and other amazing
41:41
people, um, you know, I really love
41:44
being out in the field and and dealing
41:46
with this most important
41:47
>> and we just need more partners like you
41:48
in our industry. So, I hope everyone
41:50
listening to this feel figures out how
41:53
they can fit Shannon into some of their
41:55
work or um if they want to do this
41:57
better, if they were inspired by this,
41:58
highly recommend. And also, since this
42:01
is the Catalyst Collab, um whenever
42:04
you're hearing this, we usually do
42:05
Catalyst in the fall of every year and
42:07
we always bring in people like Shannon,
42:09
people outside of the sector we can
42:11
learn from. Um so if that's your thing,
42:13
check it out. It'll be in the show
42:14
notes.
42:15
>> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you all so much for
42:17
joining us and we can't wait to see you
42:19
with our next