Latest / Hustle Rebels: Burnout Recovery for Over-Achievers / Why High Achievers Normalize Burnout with Steve Bisson (Part 2)

Transcript

Why High Achievers Normalize Burnout with Steve Bisson (Part 2) · Hustle Rebels: Burnout Recovery for Over-Achievers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need rank or you don't need a manager status to change someone's mood or change anything.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you can make that difference in someone's life.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's where you can start taking control over your environment.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is Hustle Rebels, a podcast for people who know how to grind, but are starting to question the cost.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Renee, and here we talk about success, burnout, and nervous system regulation without glorifying exhaustion or sacrificing your health, relationships, or your sense of self.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And without pretending ambition is the problem.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get into it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Hustle Rebels.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is part two of my conversation with Steve Bisson.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Steve is a licensed mental health counselor and the owner of Straight to the Point Therapy.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: He works closely with first responders and high performers who are carrying more than they're willing to admit.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he's known for being direct, practical, and honestly kind of allergic to anything that sounds good but doesn't actually work.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: Steve also has a podcast called Resilience Development in Action, which you should definitely check out as well.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, we get into the badge of honor culture around exhaustion, what real leadership actually looks like when someone is struggling, why being human matters more than rank or credentials, and the subtle signs to pay attention to when your work stress starts bleeding into the rest of your life.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: And if you haven't listened to part one yet, go back and start there.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about workplace toxicity, why high achievers stay way too long in environments they know are harming them, and why mental health is still treated like something to just push through instead of something that actually should be addressed like every other bodily injury.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Here's part two of my conversation with Steve Bisson.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I feel like it definitely even ties into that badge of honor, right?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: We and I, you know, we joke about it a lot, especially in the first responder world, is you know, you'll sleep when you're dead, you just keep pushing through.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: It literally is a badge of honor to be like, oh, I just worked a 36 hour shift.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, you work 36, I just worked a 48-hour shift.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like you're oneing up, you're one upping each other.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, why?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: That there's nothing cool about not sleeping for 48 hours and then thinking you could provide proper care.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why would you think that that's cool?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I used to do it, you know, and thinking back, I'm like, if I had a paramedic that showed up to treat my mother or my father and they were on their 46th hour of work, no, no, I would not want that.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So why would why is that a badge of honor?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and why do you think that we, as you know, a professional, how do we train people out of that mentality?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like for leadership as well?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, leadership has to lead by example.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is when someone is struggling, don't suspend them, don't make them pay the price.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Go talk to them and see how they're doing.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good, I'm good.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, if you were doing good, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to get you in trouble.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's going on?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that leadership on a corporate level to a department level has to work that way.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a therapist, people think, oh, your job's so hard.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just observe what's in front of me.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that because I'm acute, I pay attention to that, people are like, oh, you pay attention.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we really need for the mental health.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's what leadership needs to do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: You see a colleague struggle, um, your colleague cries every day when they get to their cubicle.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: You can't like the first time you check, and then after that, it gets uncomfortable.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, don't get uncomfortable going, damn Rachel, what the hell's going on?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Are you okay?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you can pay attention and be mindful of that.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Let yourself be open.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: You as a colleague, like I know I'm a therapist and all that, and I'm not crapping on my profession.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But you as a colleague in a corporate world to the like the non-corporate world, to police, it you're paying attention to the person, and if they look like crap and all that, you don't need to be rude about it.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm you but be like, wow, you you're having a hard time, they ain't looking good.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that that sounds super cold, but people will who are struggling will be like, someone noticed.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes that's all people want.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: They want someone to notice.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know about you, but it certainly happened to me when I was having a hard time with when my dad had cancer.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was having a hard time in general.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: The best one I ever had is a colleague who I rarely talked to, who worked in the building I worked at, came in like, I don't want to be mean, but you've been looking really like crap in the last couple of days.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had a 15-minute cry/slash information session about my dad's illness.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I felt great about it, but I felt a little liberated afterwards.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the other person, just because they opened that up, are someone that I continue talking to regularly because they let me have my moment.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think stop thinking that giving a moment to someone means they're gonna dump on you all the time.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: You can set limits and boundaries.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's your job as a human being, frankly.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: But if someone's having a hard time, don't look at it and try to run away or look the other way.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know, Jimmy looks like he's drinking every fucking day when he comes in.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Then say something.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to embarrass him in front of people, but grab him on the side and say, Hey Jimmy, you know what?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Vodka doesn't smell much, but I can smell it.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: So there's gotta be a problem here.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to do it in front of people.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: What can I do to support you?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: I know that that sounds absolutely harsh if you think of they're just listening to my the podcast right now.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: But Renee smiled, and I know a lot of people who are listening to that smile because they're like, gee, I wish someone did that for me.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's why, like, for me, go check on Rachel.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can tell from experience that when I was at my darkest point at my last apartment, that there was many a time where I just wis someone had reached out to me, you know, because one of the one of the biggest signs for me, knowing that why I was in my darkest times was withdrawing from my group.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so instead of reaching out, it was like they were pushing me further away, calling me insubordinate, calling me, you know, the bitch and stuff like that.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like it if someone, I always think back and it's just like, if someone would have been like, are you okay, just those words, it probably would have been immensely different than the trajectory of what ended up happening.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think of Jacko Willink and his EO Academy and how he says, um, you know, the leadership capital, where just you don't have to be best friends with the people that, you know, are your employees or that you work with.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to be human, you know.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just ask them how their day is going, ask them how their family is going, you know, just ask them how you can support them in their role.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just these very simple actions in just making them feel human is a deposit into the capital of helping them.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but true you I gotta stop because human is exactly the important part.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're all humans, whether you have 14 bars on like 15 things on your lapel, or you had none.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: You are a$4,000 suit corporate person, or you're a$10 bought at Salvation Army stuff.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're all human, and we all have that similar thing of having one person caring for us means the world.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: You want to prevent suicide in this world, ask someone when they don't look good, what's going on?
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the important things, I know what you said it would have felt good if people asked you, but I'm pretty sure if it was around the table and in front of everyone going, what's wrong with you, would have probably not flown over really well.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Grab that's the other part too.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Be personal with people.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to stop that because it's it really is about you can ask someone like the hell's wrong with you, and that's gonna just shut them down.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm alone with you or we're going or just grabbing chili, and like it's or frankly, we're just going outside for lunch.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I don't know, you didn't you haven't been looking at yours like yourself lately.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: What the hell's going on?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know my language is not the most professional for people, but the bottom line is the person will highly likely go, they cared enough to see.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: They won't pay attention to the language.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Don't say he cared enough to see and didn't do it in front of like you know a staff meeting going, hey Lucy, you haven't been pulling your weight as a salesperson.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: What the hell's going on?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Are you okay?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: That means nothing, that just means humiliation.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Individual, you talk about leadership, going to see people.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to fix their problems.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know what, Renee, you used to have so much energy.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: What happened?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, that the the look, I feel for you.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I can fix it, but you know what?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can talk to someone.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you can go see Johnny or talk to Rachel again.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, Rachel comes up a lot here.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I told you I would do it anyway.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the bottom, what's that?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, for those of you listening, I made a joke earlier that people call me Rachel mistakenly when they see Renee.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's the joke.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are all in on the inside joke.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I I I don't ever tell me not to talk about something because I will absolutely bring it up and it's such a pain.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: People will laugh and they're like, You're a pain.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: But that's again, this is like, and again, Renee has known me for a while, but that's even like if Renee wasn't doing well, but she knows we have this inside joke and I keep on bringing it up, it elevates her mood a little bit.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And like, oh, Steve pays attention to what I'm saying, he cares for me.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Those are the little things that you don't need to have a 14 badges, you don't need to have a$5,000 Armani suit.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: You can just be a human being and ask these things and be funny and laugh and have that little inside joke.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you have an inside joke with someone, I don't know about you guys, but that little inside joke just warms you up a little bit and you don't feel as bad.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what a great point that you make too, is that you don't need rank or you don't need a manager status to change someone's mood or change anything, you know, like you can make that difference in someone's life.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like that's where you can start taking control over your environment, is realizing that you don't need to be in a leadership position.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I always go back to the fact of the senior guy, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: The senior guy is someone who never cared enough to want to be promoted in some fashion, but still wanted to make a difference just inherently because they love the job so much.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so they take on the role of just helping out the the rookie, you know, helping out the newbie.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like something that they never had to be told to do, they never had to be asked, they just wanted to do it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you're in corporate or whether you're in a first responder world, it's something that you can do, just like you were saying, as a human, if you just take someone under their wing, under your wing, and just see how they're doing and just teaching them, making them feel like they're important in some way, I feel like is just leaps and bounds.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: I, those are the the main people that I can remember that had helped me through without if I probably went up to them and was like, you made such a huge impact in my last 10 years of my fire career, they'd probably be like, I never knew that, you know, because they never intended to do that, and they're not like huge leadership rank or anything.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: I the other part that I want to add is uh you don't need uh masters to care for people.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't just because I have a master doesn't even mean I care more for people.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I might be actually colder.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I am, but it could be.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: What I that's the other part too.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't have the psychology.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know how to talk to people?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, then you have the psychology ability.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: A piece of paper doesn't make you better at that, just a piece of paper.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's what you talk about rank and all that.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: I the I tell people like where I learned most of my life is my family, like I'm yeah, I'm white-collared, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I sit in a freaking chair and I let people talk to me and I make money off of it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I grew up like my uncle was a farmer, the other one was a mechanic, others work in the supermarket.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: My cousin, who's the same age as me, is run three, four supermarkets.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I've learned more from that crowd than sitting in a classroom ever.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's what I tell people it's not about education, it's about paying attention.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And when you talk about emotions, I can give you every book in psychology, it's not gonna make you more emotionally smart.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: But if you learn how to talk to people and pay attention, that's what makes you emotionally smart.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we've talked about this before because I'm trained in brain spotting, but I'm obviously not a licensed therapist or counselor.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that's so beautiful about brain spotting is that as long as you're in a profession where you are helping people, um, you don't need to have that background of a degree or anything of that nature.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just proof is in the pudding of how you can help people in this type of space without having those types of degrees of the paperwork behind you, you know.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's really just a money grab at the end of the day.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's all a money grab.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: And you talked about it perfect example.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: I do EMDR and I'm proud of doing eye movement desensitization or reprocessing.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I am trained, I am not certified just because I don't want to pay for the money grab.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the money grab.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I've done it for 10 years, and I know people who've done it with me, and they would tell you that it I'm pretty good at it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why it needs an uh, I personally don't know why it needs a degree, personally.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: But brain spotting to me is actually faster and more effective, and it's definitely something in my list of what I want to do.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And lo and behold, you don't need a license in mental health to give that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not putting down my profession, I'm just saying being human and learning what to do in the right way, you don't need the education, you don't need the paper, you don't need the state telling you you're good.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to have a willingness to learn and pay attention and brain spotting, you know, as much as I do.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm learning about it a little bit right now.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about, oh, you know what?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: I read this one study that said that no brain spotting doesn't like it's about observation, paying attention to the person in front of you.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, that's all it is.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm simplifying, I know, but you understand what I mean.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, absolutely.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: It really, I mean, at the end of the day, it's a lot simpler than people actually make it out to be because it's a lot more of the person healing, allowing their brain to process and heal itself, which you know, taking out the ego of a lot of therapists, which is hard to do.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the hustle, the the stuff that you gotta remember is what I've said to people, I've seen 10,000 people and I have healed zero.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I've given them a lot of them resources in order for them to heal themselves.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: That I've done significantly well.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I've never healed a human being, I've never fixed a human being.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Hell, I'm still working on me.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Never mind healing other people.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the tools that you can give just by being there, there's people who said to me, Wow, you're a good listener.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even intervene, but being there to listen gave them the hope they wanted.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't, that's not a degree, that's not you don't need a corp, you know, to be up the corporate ladder.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to chase that stuff anyway.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Be a human being with another human being, and the human being will be really grateful for that.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: It seems like a pretty simple principle for me.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of which, for someone who's listening and realizing this is me.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am that person who is working for a badge of honor, and I am overworking myself.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on the verge of over-burnout, and um, no one's reaching their hand out for me.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: What would be the first honest step that they should take to help heal themselves?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or where should they turn to?
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a good question.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that they got to start paying attention to their own symptoms and their own stuff.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's number one.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: How to reach out for help?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: Look, uh, I'll be perfectly honest, therapists who are good are usually full, and the therapists who are not are either new or maybe not as good.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: So finding a therapist is not always what I recommend.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say pay attention to yours to yours yourself, pay attention to what you're feeling, and start taking time off.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if people say, Well, what about this?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: What about that?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you are working because you're afraid of losing your spot, it's probably not a good job for you.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I went out sick for three months right now, my I have not every week, but I have 70 clients total.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: Guess what?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I would guarantee at least 50 would be like, no, I'll wait till you're back.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I care for you.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: People don't care if they they if you are not feeling well, take the time off.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And if you need the time off, pay attention to why you need the time off and pay attention to those symptoms.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you can get a therapist, that's great.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But also pay attention to what you like.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're no longer you get home and you know, you want to go, you see your wife Rachel, and you're like, I don't even want to talk to her, then pay attention to that because now you're taking your job at home because now the one that you love are no longer no longer the person you want to talk to.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: If Renee calls me on my cell phone, but because I've just done with my job and I'm sick and tired of it, but I don't know it, and I see Renee's name and I go, ugh, pay attention to that for real.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because Renee didn't do anything to you, she just called you.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: But that's where you pay attention to these little things.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: If the rest of the world is annoying you, but you're not willing to talk about it at work or say that they're doings, that's another sign to me.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you're hurting your relationships outside of work, that's definitely a big sign to me.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you were looking for?
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just yeah, no, I feel like that's a that's a great landing point to end on, unless you have any final thoughts that you want to leave them with.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no, I don't.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I I I just think that, you know, I want to, I know you're gonna do this, but I really appreciate you letting me on be on.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is something I'm very excited about being on your podcast.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: I am a listener of the podcast.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, I didn't listen to this week.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: I understand, but give me a break.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, truthfully, that's once you realize that you don't need to hustle to be successful, you'll actually hustle less and be more successful.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's really strange, but it's the truth.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: It is true, which is why we started this podcast, because we're trying to obtain sustainable success in a healthier manner where we're not sacrificing our well-being and our relationships because there is a better way.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've just been ingrained that it has to be a nine to five and we're just draining ourselves dry.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Which is not necessary.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is not, absolutely not.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: But Steve, this is a very powerful conversation that I have appreciated, and I think that the listeners are gonna gain a lot of insight.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for being so direct and grounded in it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, before we wrap up, where is the best place for the listeners to find you and your work?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to my website, uh Steve-Bissong, B-I-S-S-O-N.com.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: You can go there.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my Instagram is not something I care so much about anymore in my social media.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I do put some stuff, but you can go check that out under real Steve Bisson, or I like to say real Steve Bisson, because you know it's a little fancier.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then really go listen to my podcast, Resilience Development in Action, uh First Responder Mental Health.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you're not a first responder, I think people can benefit from the conversations we have.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I have Renee on, I want to say about three months ago.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want to go back and listen, that we had a powerful conversation exactly on this subject.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: So please go back.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: But those that's the three best ways to reach me.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we'll also make sure that Steve's links are in the show notes as well, including his podcast resilience development in action and his practice straight to the point therapy.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: And for everyone listening, if this conversation resonated, I ask you to do three simple things, which is subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss future episodes.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: Share this with someone who needs to hear it.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to help keep this show independent and honest, consider supporting the podcast because those links are all in the in the show notes as well.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is Hustle Rebels, where we do not demonize ambition, but we do question the cost.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for listening.