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10. Dirty Little Secrets · Dumb Defenses

• Frankie: Hello and welcome back to the Dumb Defenses podcast where we go around the world and through time to bring you the weirdest legal theories. I'm Frankie and this week Judah: I'm Judah. Frank Frankie, what fresh what fresh hell are we bringing people this week, Frank? Frankie: you were gonna talk about pinball and I'm gonna talk about prohibition. Judah: Okay. Do you want me to go first or do you want to go first? Frankie: you can go first. 'cause I Judah: Yeah, me Frankie: I think I went first last week. Judah: time is fake. Frankie: Time is so fake, especially after the pandemic. Judah: Especially after the pandemic. Well, I want to open with if you've heard about the devastating wildfires in northwestern Washington, there Frankie: my goodness. Yep. Judah: are several several major wildfires. My own mother is evacuated and her house was briefly on fire. Frankie: But it survived, right? Judah: It's it's standing and it it appears mostly intact. Yeah. my stepdad's been able to go back inside of it. and there's been a devastating w wildfire that has impacted the warm springs reservation. Frankie: Mm. There's a huge one out there. Judah: And one that we're not talking about that's very close to the Spokane fires is impacting the Colville reservation Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and to encourage folks to go to, Colville Tribesite, Warm Springs Tribesite, City of Spokane, set up a donation hub center and to give money, to give people money. Frankie: Absolutely. Yeah, we're into the part of the year where the entire West Coast is coated in a layer of soot and ash. it's been wildly smoky here in the Willamette Valley. There's a couple smaller fires about twenty miles west of us outside of Dallas. and It's just really smoky. My car was covered in ash the other day. Like it's it's real. Judah: Yeah. Frankie: even if you're not immediately in an evacuation area, Judah: I'm from Eastern Washington. I lived in Spokane for a number of years. I graduated from North Central High School in Spokane, Washington. there are about sixty-five thousand people from Spokane who are evacuated from their homes. Many of them have lost their homes entirely, so please open your hearts, open your wallets Frankie: Yes. Judah: for wildfire relief. And not just for City Frankie: Absolutely. Judah: of Spokane. We cannot ignore devastation in on this Colville reservation and the Warm Springs reservation. So open your wallets to them. Frankie: the yeah, the Warm Springs Reservation. I was checking on the local fire map, yesterday and there's a huge fire out there, the the air quality is above six hundred. It is horrible, horrible conditions out there. They need the help. Judah: Yeah. And I feel like Spokane is getting a lot of attention and I just don't see the same attention being brought forward for the Colville Reservation and the Warm Springs Reservation Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: and that's because of racism. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: So I've been to the Colville reservation. It's lovely, lovely, amazing people give give your money. Frankie: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't personally been to Warm Springs. I was invited but unfortunately couldn't make it work in my schedule. But the rest of my commission who did go said it was beautiful and lovely and just wonderful people, very welcoming and they now need our help and we need to make sure they have that. Judah: So let's talk about pinball. I think our generation, Frank, spent a lot of time playing computer pinball 'cause it was one of the fr few preloaded games. Yeah. Frankie: It was the free game on my laptop. I did when in high school spend far too much time perfecting that game. Judah: Well, for many years, and up until in one state this year, pinball was wildly outlawed. And I want you to guess why pinball was outlawed. Frankie: Gambling? Judah: As a gambling game. Correct. So up until 2026 in South Carolina, it was a status offense for minors. to play pinball. Up until this year. kids couldn't play pinball. So let's go into the history of pinball. Pinball as we know it today is not the game that was really outlawed and faced this scrutiny for gambling. It used to be that pinball was more akin to the game like Plinko. Do you know what Plinko is where you drop the coin in the top and it goes Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: down. There was no flappers. Frankie: Hm. Judah: On these on these early pinball games. You couldn't like push the ball back up. You're just shooting the ball up. And then it was coming down, you get a prize, maybe not get a prize. The sources that I used, the thing that got me really interested was Drunk History, once again, great show. Frankie: Of course I love drunk history. Judah: segment, season three, episode six, titled Games. There is a great article on this website, RetroMash, called The Dark Days of Pinball. And a really comprehensive article on history.com by Christopher Klein, That Time America Outlawed Pinball. So the wave of outlawing begins in nineteen forty-eight. It'd been like s here and there. It Frankie: Yeah. Judah: had been here and there outlawed prior to that. There had been a push during World War II. but a New York City police officer goes into a cigar shop. puts a penny into an early pinball game called the Marvel pop up. Frankie: What is it with these cops and having to like do the thing that's illegal before having remember like last week with the obscenity thing? And it's just like, No, I gotta watch this movie first. No, I gotta play this game first. Like, what is this? Judah: I I gotta play this game. So he pulls back the little pinball plunger that shoots this metal ball up, wins a free game, but before he won a free game, he'd lost five pennies. finally, on his sixth try after winning a free game and finally getting something, he goes and arrests the cigar store's owner for possession of a gambling machine. Frankie: my god. Again, like just just you know it's there. Just do the thing. Do you have to play the thing first? Do you have to watch the movie first? You know it's there. It's like the cops who Judah: we s we Frankie: arrest somebody for reckless driving and then as they're driving them to the jail they're like actively using both hands on the CAD. Judah: Driving with their knees. So like I like I Frankie: Body cam is a wonderful thing. Judah: mentioned before, these early pinball games which we start seeing in the US kind of Great Depression-Y era, didn't have flippers. So everything was either dependent on people physically picking up the pinball machine and tilting it, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: or trying to strategically how far they're gonna Frankie: Like put a little English on it or something. Judah: pull back the plunger. People were betting on pinball outcomes and you could win prizes from pinball. During the Great Depression, we also had something that's gonna tie into what you're saying is prohibition So gambling and dens where you could drink it up, speakeasies, were Frankie: Speakeasies. Judah: rampant, especially in the city of New York. and Mayor LaGuardia, after whom LaGuardia Airport is named, really hated pinball and saw it as this like mob center crime den for gambling. Frankie: Ha ha ha. Sounds like the same reasoning that Brandeis doesn't have a football team. Judah: Yeah. Frankie: The the dude who donated all the money for the gym complex didn't like football because his kid had gotten severely injured in a football accident. And so he's like, You get this money if you don't have a football team. Judah: Okay. Frankie: Okay. Judah: Alright. there is a great shirt that I saw for sale from Gonzaga University. Spokane said Gonzaga football undefeated since like nineteen forty two because they haven't had a football team. They Frankie: They have enough football teams since then. Judah: they have a great basketball team. So prohibition ends, but the war is breaking out, and in nineteen forty two the city of New York outlaws. Pinball. the city council approved Mayor LaGuardia's request to ban pinball. There's a pretty famous historical image of these pinball machines being smashed in public. in New York, the police were going into bowling alleys and malt shops and candy stores and pulling out pinball machines and smashing them. After this, pinball doesn't go away in the city, but it goes to places like adult stores. Uh-huh. Frankie: Wink wink. Judah: and people are still playing pinball. and then you see tons of major cities after New York bans pinball also banning pinball. And there was a focus on Especially banning it for kids so for minors not to be corrupted by the evil game of pinball. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And in the fifties it was associated with leather jackets, cigarettes, and greaser hairstyles. Pinball. Pinball. and it had a a seedy reputation. Now we laugh because pinball seems like this tremendously innocuous thing. Frankie: I now have Music Man stuck in my head. Judah: yeah, it was totally that. It and so early forties, all the way through the fifties, all the way through the sixties, pinball is a rebel outlaw ball game. And then the 70s come around. There is an underground contingent this whole time of pinball enthusiasts. It's Frankie: Mm-hmm. It's a fun game. Judah: a fun game. I've played it at the arcade. I would play it again at the arcade and had a good time, even though you think the flippers should be closer together. Frankie: Yeah. I don't know if you've ever played any of the older machines that first got flippers. but there's a pinball museum up in Portland, I think. And I played some of those older fifties and sixties machines. And the ball is really heavy, the flippers are really clunky, and when you're used to playing the modern games, they're hard to play. Judah: Yeah. Very manual. there was a pretty famous person that was convicted of pinball gambling. It was the district attorney for the parish of Orleans in Louisiana. was convicted of accepting bribes to protect pinball gambling. Frankie: Speaking of agents of the state getting arrested, did you see the video that the sheriff of Umatilla County got arrested for a Dewey? Judah: Yeah, and he tried to use this position allegedly to get out of it and he's under review. it's not really till nineteen seventy-four that the California Supreme Court says pinball is more of a game of skill than it is a game of chance. So these are not gambling machines, these are skills machines. Frankie: I would agree with the newer machines being that more skill than chance, but Judah: And Back in New York, for the next two years, where really we see the birth of popularizing pinball bands, pinball remains illegal. Now comes our hero, the underground pinball enthusiast, writer Roger Sharp. The Amusement and Music Operators Association had heard that he was a top player. I don't know how they're like I couldn't find any evidence of all the like rankings. Now there's pinball tournaments and whatnot. It's Frankie: yeah. Judah: still very underground. So this writer and a pinball enthusiast is known as a top player. And The Amusement and Music Operators Association wants pinball to be legalized. so that association goes to a city council meeting, was just being held in a courtroom. They set up a pinball machine in the courtroom, and Roger Sharp comes into play pinball. And he is able to show that he can predict. where his shots are gonna go and therefore that it's a game of skill. So he proves to the city council in this historically I would say should be more famous because this I think this is really cute that they set up a pinball machine, they got a pinball player to come in there, and he was able to predict this shot he could tell the city council where the balls were gonna go. Also at the time New York is you know, seventies prime grungy New York time. The city's Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: facing big bankruptcy crisis. And So when the city overturns the ban, they say, All right, you can have a pinball machine, but we're gonna make you license it for fifty bucks. So they were incentivized. They were incentivized. Frankie: They needed money. Judah: Now this kind of story from New York makes waves, it makes news, it's it's kind of a cute, fun, like dramatic story that this guy went in and was able to prove by Predicting where his shot was gonna land that the city overturned. So then we see the pinball machine bands being lifted across the country. And you know, now today we have official tournaments, people that Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: collect vintage pinball machines, whole vintage arcades. But like I said, there's been a surprising recency of How some of these bans were lifted. Nashville didn't amend their ordinances to legalize pinball until two thousand and four. Oakland, two thousand and fourteen. Frankie: So were these things that they forgot were on the books and then went, whoops, we should fix this. Judah: Yeah, that's what it really seemed like. I got that from a kineticist article. and then there's an NPR article about the city of Kokomo, Indiana. And I don't know how many illicit pinball machines were in the city of Kokomo, Indiana, but the city council ended a ban on pinball machines in twenty sixteen that had started in nineteen fifty five. And the state of South Carolina removed pinball from its status offense list for minors. So here we have like minor in possession of alcohol, because it's legal for adults to possess alcohol. That's a Frankie: Mm-hmm. Right. Judah: status offense. In some areas, truancy skipping school is a status offense. So it's if you're in a certain age range that it is in an offense. in twenty twenty six, they just did it. Frankie: Playing pinball. Judah: Yep. Well, a minor playing pinball. And it's not even like they did it in in January. As far as I can tell, they didn't remove it from the status offense until June. So less than two months ago. Less than two months ago, Frankie: Like a month and a half ago. Jeez. Judah: South Carolina said, you know what? Kids can play pinball. And I'm gonna say, Frankie, if I take your very own precious baby child to a retro Frankie: He went to the pinball museum with us. Judah: Well, if I took him to the the vintage arcade and he said, I wanna play pinball, I'm not gonna think I'm going to corrupt my precious baby nephew by allowing him to play pinball. I think he's gonna get frustrated really fast because he can't win, but Frankie: he was very overstimulated by the end of a warehouse full of hundreds of pinball machines all going beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep. Judah: he can read now, he can play pinball. Frankie: Mm-hmm. I think he did he was largely hanging out with grandma while Kevin and I were. Judah: Well I'm just betting that Frankie: Having our own fun. Judah: if I took him to like the retro arcade, there's gonna be other games. Yeah Frankie: Mm-hmm. he'd have a blast, yeah. Judah: but there's gonna be other games that are gonna be more interesting. But I wouldn't think I'm corrupting him by allowing him Frankie: Yeah. No, not at all. Judah: to play pinball. Like I'm sorry, I'm giving you a worse child than I borrowed by allowing your child to play pinball. Frankie: I'm ninety percent sure that he has played pinball before. Judah: he's gonna be seven soon, right? So he's yeah, he's plenty old now. Frankie: Mm-hmm. He's fine. Judah: He's fine. Frankie: But also too young to get a ticket. Judah: Yeah, that's true. I don't know if we took him to South Carolina three months ago and we're like, We're gonna let this first grader Frankie: I mean, we were in South Carolina in June. Judah: you should have taken him out for a game of illegal pinball. Frankie: Ha ha. Judah: Like, you know what, let's break the law, bud. Frankie: I wouldn't have known. Judah: Yeah, I bet not a lot of people knew. I I bet nobody's gonna be rushing up to you like at the family arcade center be Don't let your kid play pinball, it's just Chuck E. Cheese, it's it's illegal. Frankie: Right. Probably people don't even know who live there. Seems like one of those things that they forgot to take off the books and then were cleaning up stuff in the legislative session or something. Judah: Yes. And and a spoiler alert for next week, we're gonna talk about Weird Laws from Across Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: the Country and how the actor, director, Clint Eastwood bravely stood up for ice cream. Frankie: Yeah, there's all sorts of weird laws that are still on the books or recently removed from the books that like why? So that is that is a thing that we will be looking into along with some other stuff. Judah: So legalize pinball. It's pretty fun. It's not super fun, but it's pretty fun. Frankie: It is I very much enjoy pinball, and have been known to just completely zone in and then not realize three hours have passed 'cause ADHD. Judah: Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. Frankie: So much dopamine. Judah: All right. that was my lighthearted journey into pinball being made illegal and then hashtag legalize pinball. Frankie: Sure. all right. So I'm going to look into Prohibition. Judah: Not a pinball. Frankie: not of pinball, of drinking. Or not technically not drinking, but owning and selling alcohol. Judah: Wait, so drinking was never outlawed? Frankie: Yeah, we'll get to that. So my sources PBS had a bunch of really good articles on the roots of prohibition and the unintended consequences of prohibition. and then I also looked into the National Archives had a lot of really good material, original source material and things like that, including the Volcid Act, and obviously the Constitution and a couple other things that we will talk about as we go through. Judah: I remember seeing an old advertisement from the Prohibition era, and it was for a grape juice concentrate. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And in the instructions it said, be careful not to add sugar mixed with water, put in an airtight container where air could escape and leave in the back of your cupboard for a month because it will make wine. Be careful Frankie: Oops. Judah: not to do that because wine is illegal. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: So here's this average be careful with this grape juice concentrate. You don't take this very specific set of actions to make wine. Frankie: Yep. Yep. So the prohibition movement started in eighteen twenty six, when the American Temperance Society was founded to try and start deterring people from drinking. And by the eighteen Judah: But but the temperance movement was originally to temper drinking and they Frankie: Yes. Judah: were an anti domestic violence movement. Frankie: Yes, they were. Yeah. So the big issue that brought prohibition around was people getting drunk and then beating on their wives. essentially by the eighteen thirties, Americans were drinking three times the amount of alcohol that we do today, and it was mostly consumed by men. And during the same time period, as we all know, women had very few rights. This combination made life hell for many women, and also just wreaking havoc on American lives in general. So, this temperance movement started in Protestant churches, and they felt that removing alcohol from people's lives was the next step towards cleansing American sin after slavery was abolished. So they started out arguing moderation, but it soon turned into demanding that the government prohibit the sale of alcohol. All together. At this same time, we're also dealing with waves of immigration from Western Europe, specifically German immigrants. Germany is known for its beer making. And the German immigrants brought that culture with them and started ramping up their own beer production, trying to keep their traditions from home, while also, you know, kind of trying to assimilate into the melting pot, right? Women were starting to feel with all of the heavy drinking anyways, and now there's more beer available, and men were drinking to excess, women started to feel that their lives were being ruined by these millions of gallons of beer that their spouses were consuming. and eventually in the 1870s, the women's Christian Temperance Union was founded with the goal of not only deterring people from alcohol and drugs, but otherwise improve public morals. They joined the heavy hitters of the women's suffrage movement, such as Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, under their leader, Francis Willard. So by the end of the 19th century, the WCTU was lobbying local governments to prohibit the sale of alcohol, as well as doing educational campaigns of the ills of alcohol consumption. They were doing this because they saw alcohol as the root of all things wrong in society. and they found support from progressives who were trying to rectify the living conditions of immigrants, protect the rights of working children, improving public education, and advocating for women's rights. So you have this like weird marriage of this far-right temperance movement with the super progressive people who kind of come together on everybody has a right to live free and sober. Judah: I do want to just throw out there that we're saying, you know, these white Protestant churches are saying, well, this is to cleanse our sins after slavery ended Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: not taking action to end racism and racial violence and the s and Frankie: No, they're cleansing their souls. Judah: the suffrage movement not taking steps to include black and brown win Frankie: Black women. Yep. Mm-hmm. Judah: And so shout out to Sojourner Truth. Frankie: Yep. Yeah, no, she was absolutely not on that list. So yeah, no, there's some definite white saviorism going on. Side of the times. ultimately the WCTU's goal was a constitutional amendment, but they weren't able to breach that seemingly impossible goal until they were joined by the Anti-Saloon League, led by Wayne Wheeler. The ASL ultimately became the most successful single issue lobbying group in American history. They managed to rally the support of a multitude of seemingly opposed groups: Democrats, Republicans, Progressives, Populists, Subfragettes, the KKK, the NAACP, the International Workers of the World, as well as industrial hard hitters such as Henry Ford, John D. Rockefeller, and Andrew Carnegie. Again, all of these generally diametrically opposed groups, the KKK and the NAACP, are all Coming together around this issue of people drinking too much. we gotta stop the sale of alcohol. Which is something that we have not seen in forever and probably will not see the way politics are today. there's so much polarization today that the idea of a bipartisan movement is pretty much off the table as far as I can tell. Judah: I mean there is an ongoing raging debate in American politics about whether or not kids should have free school lunches. Frankie: I don't see how that's a bad thing. Judah: Yeah. Yeah. Frankie: But that I mean, that's why, right? Because you've got people on the right yelling and screaming about our tax dollars and people on the left being like, basic human rights? Judah: Maybe kids should have food and all kids should have food. And if we take that a step further, maybe everybody should have food and people like no starve. Sidebar, there was and kind of still is a federal program for free school lunches for all. And Frankie: Yes. Judah: most schools signed up for this 'cause Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: it provides federal funding for free school lunches for everybody. Frankie: Yes. Judah: And the bunch of school districts elected not to sign up. Frankie: Which is wild to me. Judah: No, some kids should not have food. Frankie: I yeah, I don't have a response to that. so between nineteen five and nineteen seventeen, various states were trying to begin imposing their own prohibition laws. but they were struggling with that a little bit until nineteen thirteen. Prior to nineteen thirteen, there was no income tax. And so the government was reliant on liquor taxes in order to run, but in 1913, the 16th Amendment passed allowing the federal government to levy income taxes, which would completely change the income structure for the federal government, allowing these liquor taxes to not be as important in order for the government to actually run. Combine that. With anti-German fervor rising due to American entry into World War One, the Anti-Saloon League married the idea of beer and German brewers with treason because of Germany being the other side of the war in their propaganda, which really paved the way to allow the eighteenth amendment to sail through Congress. So in 1917. The House wanted to make prohibition an amendment to the Constitution, and when Congress sent the proposed amendment to the states for ratification, they set a seven year limit. Now keep in mind, in order to ratify a constitutional amendment, you need three quarters of the states to ratify it. In nineteen seventeen, that was thirty-six states had to ratify it. It took them thirteen months. Judah: Ooh, that's short. Frankie: It's super short. They were given seven years. It took them thirteen months. So yeah, it was very, very fast. And there are some amendments to the constitution, there was one that was hanging around since like the founding that didn't get ratified until 1994. So they can just chill for a very long time. Judah: Well the nineteenth amendment Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: wasn't ratified till nineteen twenty. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the eighteenth amendment, the language of the eighteenth Amendment that is operable, that isn't just like we will give you seven years to do this, is after one year from the ratification of this article, the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within the importation thereof into or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited. The amendment itself does not have an enforcement mechanism. It's just this is outlawed. So that's when Congress put together the Volcit Act, which was passed on October 28th, 1919, which prohibited the production, sale, manufacture, et cetera, of any liquor over one half percent alcohol by volume. And it also labeled anywhere liquor was illegally made. kept or sold to be a legal nuisance, and established criminal and civil penalties for violating the prohibition rules. And it also created the ability of federal prohibition agents to enforce the laws. So it's essentially like they created their own little mini FBI strictly for the purpose of enforcing the prohibition laws. Judah: Was there any consideration to the fact that it is harder to make a sourdough starter than it is to make wine Frankie: Ha ha ha ha. Judah: in your own house? Frankie: I did not see anything about that. also not really something that came to mind, but yeah, I've tried Sorado a number of times and my ADHD gets the best of me, 'cause if it's not in front of my face, it doesn't exist. So Judah: So and it used to be so, you know, Johnny Appleseed, the real person, Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: who was going down just randomly planting appleseds and selling whoever because there was a requirement that homesteads have certain number of fruit trees. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And that was for the purpose of making apple cider. Hard apple cider. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: That's that's where all those apples went. Frankie: So the Volcett Act did allow for the manufacture of alcohol for religious or medicinal purposes. keep in mind that this was a time where medicine wasn't quite where it is now. So you're gonna have like cough syrups that have alcohol in them. and there were certain wineries that were able to stay open throughout prohibition by making religious wine. So it allowed for private consumption of alcohol as long as it was legally purchased, it did not outlaw drinking itself. So if you had purchased some wine or beer or whatever prior to prohibition and it was just sitting around in your house, you could drink it in your house. That wasn't illegal. It was the the purchase manufacturer sale. Judah: I bet a lot of people said that they had massive, massive stores of alcohol. Frankie: Yep. So this am Judah: this this I've had it for ten years. This Frankie: Yeah. Or they heard it was happening and they bought it all up ahead of time. The amendment went into effect at twelve one AM on January seventeenth of nineteen twenty. How long do you think it took for it to be violated? Judah: I mean twelve one, that is the time. It was violated Frankie: With Judah: immediately. I hear I read a story about a prohibition agent that would time how long it would take for him to be able to locate alcohol in whatever city he visited. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: And he left I don't know, bus train station, I don't know where, gets into a taxi cab and says, Okay, I want you to take me to a drinking establishment and the taxi driver turned around and handed him a glass of gin. Yeah. Frankie: I love it. within minutes of the amendment going into effect, three separate groups of armed bandits stole hard alcohol from freight cars, a government-bonded warehouse, and a truck. So easier said than done to outlaw alcohol. There were some early successes. Arrests for drunk in public and consumption of alcohol fell by 30%. Yeah. Consumption Judah: Because they're drunk private. They're drinking inside instead of outside. Frankie: consumption for liquor fell by 50%. There was, however, growing disobedience of the masses and growing inventiveness of distributors who wanted to keep drinking. As we know, alcohol was available if you knew where to find it, and the government didn't have the wherewithal to police the growing underground movement. By 1925, there were tens of thousands of speakeasies, the estimates were from anywhere from 30,000 to 100,000 depending on your resource. And ultimately life under prohibition became more violent than life without it due to rebellion and organized crime. Judah: I'm gonna jump in and say there is an entire musical movement in American culture surrounding how popular speakeasies are. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: It is small band jazz. And this is why you see some things like resonator banjos or resonator ukuleleys being popularized and distributed widely also led to the incremental growth of the popularity of the guitar for these small setting dance halls and Frankie: Yep. Judah: speakeasies. Frankie: Yep. Judah: I own an instrument likely played in a speakeasy Frankie: Yeah. Judah: in Spokane, Washington, from that time period. Frankie: Nice. Nice. And it should not have been surprising that it didn't go well. This wasn't the first time that various attempts to outlaw alcohol backfired. Dating back to the mid-1800s. In Massachusetts, they tried to outlaw drinking or alcohol sale in 1844. And what happened in that situation was a local tavern started charging people to see a striped pig. Drinks were on the house, as part of admission. Judah: Ha Frankie: Maine tried to outlaw alcohol in 1851 and earned anger from the working class and Irish immigrants, and ultimately a deadly riot in 1855, leading to the law's repeal. So, super Judah: I was I forget what event I was at, but Frankie: unsurprising that this didn't work on a national scale, right? Like, people are creative. People are gonna crime Judah: People are very creative. I was at an event Frankie: if they want to crime. Judah: where single serving water bottles you couldn't sell them at this event. And Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: so there was a stand that was selling one peanut for ten dollars and it came with a free water bottle. Like the same thing. Frankie: Yep. Yep. Same vibes. So there's actually some semi local history that I found on the National Archives. Sailor Jack. On February 21st, 1928, Melvin L. Hanks, who was a special agent at the U.S. Prohibition Office in Portland, Oregon, sent a letter to Ralph Reed, who was the special agent in charge of the U.S. Prohibition Office in San Francisco. Agent Hanks included a picture of an individual named Sailor Jack, aka Roy or Ray Sparks, aka P-Rex. The letter detailed how Sailor Jack had been apprehended. The previous September near Bedford, Oregon, by a prohibition agent named Terry A. Talent. and yes, that is actually his name, Terry A. Talent. A talent at what? I don't Judah: Terry a talent. He's good at catching Frankie: know. Sailor Jack then became an informant for the government. However, he continued to attempt to sneak his liquor shipments past the prohibition agents, and ultimately he jumped bail and disappeared. Judah: 'Cause you do you just totally could in Frankie: Yeah, he just Judah: the twenties. Like I've changed my name again and now I live one city over and you will never find me. Frankie: Yep. So Special Agent Hanks in this letter further detailed that they have information from a very reliable source that he is running liquor from San Francisco to Crescent City. And this was the first time that the P Rex alias had apparently come up. He was meeting in Crescent City at a yet-to-be-named hotel with a man called Byers. Again, a buyer named Byers. Yeah. Judah: These are buyer name buyers. Yep. Frankie: And it is spelled B-Y-E-R-S, like you'd spell the last name. But I'm also wondering if somebody misheard it and just he was talking about the buyers. Who knows? Anyways. special agent Hanks finally stated, quote. If anyone were to get Sailor Jack in a tight place, he would tell all he knows about the transportation of alcohol from San Francisco to various Pacific coast points. Because apparently, like if you put the screws to somebody, they'll talk. That Judah: Yeah, but the screws don't know. Frankie: well, I mean it's also like that time of Yeah. special agent Hanks then requests that special agent in charge read try to find Sailor Jack and interview him regarding such traffic. So little bit of local history, you got the Sailor Jack, Sailor Jerry labels of alcohol. Yep. Judah: Well, Sailor Jerry is named after a famous tattoo artist who popularized what we think of as like flash tattoos or like the American style of tattooing. Frankie: okay. Mm-hmm. Judah: So we're not gonna disrespect his name. Frankie: That's fair. But I thought I had heard of a of a brand nameseller Jack. Maybe I'm just getting it confused. But Judah: Well there's also like there's Gentleman Jack but Jack Frankie: Yeah. So it Judah: Daniels is manufactured in a dry county in Tennessee. Frankie: Yes. Yep. Judah: But at the time if people haven't seen this, the architecture, people are building hidey holes and smugglers tunnels into regular houses, like Frankie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Judah: where where we keep their alcohol and you could push a button and like part of the mantle will flip over and there'll be all your booze Frankie: Yep. Yep. Judah: in just these are not master criminals. This is just somebody's house. Frankie: Yeah, no, it's just somebody's house. And the tone of this letter, it's like special agent Hanks is trying to seem like he knows all of this information when he's really just reaching out and being like, Please help me find this dude. Judah: And also I'm wondering was there no vinegar production at the time? 'Cause you cannot make vinegar without making alcohol first. Frankie: Right. And like I said, there were some wineries that were allowed to stay open because they allegedly were only making sacramental wine. Judah: Huge increase in the amount of sacramental wine needed across Frankie: Right. Judah: I mean, instead of doing like the little teeny cups or just you dip your bread, it's all it's a full pour Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: up the street. Frankie: Yep. Yeah. And so that's probably where, you know, companies that were making vinegar got their wine from. there were ways to get it, as long as, on paper this distillery was only making sacramental wine. Judah: Well, there was this big thing so, industrial alcohol was still permitted Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and federal agents were poisoning it and caused the deaths of many, many Americans who drank this industrial alcohol because they had poisoned it. Frankie: Mm. Mm. Yeah. there was a lot of Poorly planned out bits and bobs of this particular movement, to the point that as it was clearly coming to its end, President Herbert Hoover called it the Noble Experiment, which essentially became Prohibition's nickname. Which then leads to the Twenty First Amendment, which section one reads: the eighteenth Article of Amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed. Judah: cause so many people were making alcohol, running alcohol. This is the birth of the mob and major organized crime in the United States. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. There is a section two to the twenty first amendment that says transportation or importation to any state, territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors in violation of the laws thereof is still prohibited. Judah: So you can't take alcohol where it's prohibited by local law. Frankie: Right. So individual states were still able to have their local prohibitions on liquor. It was specifically hard liquor. It was not wine, beer, stuff like that. so local laws could still enforce bans on the hard alcohol, but it was no longer federally illegal. and just be careful what state you go into, just like with marijuana today. Judah: Thinking I mean, 'cause we still have ridiculous seeming prohibitions. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: For example, in Oregon, there are several species of psychedelic mushroom that are indigenous to the area. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Judah: And there was a big article in Portland that there's a a giant patch of all these psychedelic mushrooms that popped up in a public park and the reporter just down there where people are just picking and shoving into bags. There's there's a specific Frankie: Ha ha ha Judah: species that's closer to where you and I live, in Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: the Willamette Valley that thrives and you see it most often in bark mulched edges of people's yards. And while I have not picked any I have been ninety percent certain that I've been like, I think it's right there. I think this federal crime, this state crime is growing next to this Frankie: Yep. Judah: person's roses. Frankie: Yep. Yeah. And if it's growing wild, are you supposed to kill it? there's not really clear guidance on that. Judah: Yeah, what is a possession? What if it's growing I put bark in my yard? I don't know. What if I don't know? A lot of it's under hedges. Frankie: Yeah. Judah: Am I in possession of that mushroom if I didn't put it there and it's growing in the bark mulched edges under my bush? But also, please don't know what they're looking for. Frankie: Right. So on the day that the amendment was repealed, FDR wrote a proclamation on the repealing of the eighteenth amendment. Congress had been working on this post war recovery statute, which FDR when he signed it into law, the start date on that effort was either when the country gets back into the black or when the eighteenth Amendment is repealed. Whichever comes first. So guess which one came first? So the amendment was ultimately repealed on December fifth of nineteen thirty three. FDR implored Americans to quote restore greater respect for law and order, end quote, by ours of the law by Judah: Stop breaking the law by making booze at your house. Frankie: only buying alcohol or liquor from licensed dealers. He also, quote, personally to every individual family in our nation, end quote, requested adherence to purchasing from licensed dealers to aid in the breakup of the underground illegal liquor market, as well as allowing the government to collect taxes on those sales. So again, we're going back to taxing the liquor in order to have some revenue, but also to break up. the unlicensed underground stuff that had been happening during Prohibition. And the the the end of this letter was so just I'll just read it to you. I ask the wholehearted cooperation of all of our citizens to the end that this return to individual freedom shall not be accompanied by the repugnant conditions that obtained prior to the adoption of the eighteenth Amendment and those that have existed since its adoption. Failure to do this honestly and courageously will be a living reproach to us all. he further specifically asked that states not allow the saloon to come back, as well as the bootlegger, and quote, such others who would profit at the expense of good government, law and order. End quote. He hopes that people will not fall back to the level of drinking from prior to prohibition and encourages education towards temperance. Judah: This kind of reminds me of like California legalizing marijuana for recreational Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: use and it being so difficult and cost prohibitive for people especially certain areas or small growers to to become licensed and fully compliant with the state that Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: they still have an active, very active criminal underground marijuana industry. Frankie: Oregon made it a little bit easier because we had the medical marijuana first I know California did as well, but it's so easy to become a medical grower in Oregon that that's kind of where all the small time growers went. And they would essentially grow for themselves and their friends. Whereas then the licensing came through. it took time. the year that and I don't remember exactly what year it was, but when The ballot measure ninety-one passed, which allowed the recreational marijuana. It gave the legislature six months to come up with licensing rules. And then another six months for them to start like vetting places for licensing. And then another six months to start actually issuing licenses. And so it wasn't until like two years later, after the ballot measure passed, that People were actually able to walk into a dispensary. Judah: and and purchase and now there's a dispensary everywhere. Frankie: It's like Starbucks. Judah: Yeah, there's the great comedian Maria Bamford jokes that she wants to own a dispensary inside of a different dispensary. Frankie: Ha ha ha Judah: I mean weed is not nearly as dangerous as alcohol. Frankie: It's not. It's the it's not I mean, it it it can be addictive. It's not as dangerously addictive as alcohol is. the expected side effects, i.e. the the high that you get off of it, generally not as dangerous as when people have alcohol and, you know, I mean nobody should be using substances in driving, but it's far less dangerous Judah: It's far less dangerous to the community. Frankie: to the community to have marijuana be legal than alcohol, frankly. Judah: I'm frustrated with our home state right now because we've legalized the use of psilocybin for a very narrow purpose and it's Frankie: Mm-hmm. And for those for those who aren't familiar because the research isn't very widespread yet, there has been some very promising early research that microdosing of psilocybin can be very useful in healing from PTSD in combination with EMDR or other modalities of therapies. and it can help you process through things faster than a typical EMDR session, which can take seven to eight sessions depending on the the severity of the trauma, and it can actually help get you through it in one to two sessions. So it's very, very promising, very early research. Judah: There's some promising early research on the use of larger doses of psilocybin in early addiction and recovery. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: There's some more established research on the use of psilocybin for easing anxiety in people with terminal illnesses. And I wanted to say that there was some very early notches of research in treatment resistant depression. Frankie: Yes. So treatment resistant depression, there are a number of different modalities that they've been working on. You may see the and I hate pharmaceutical commercials 'cause it causes people to ask for things that they don't have ailments for. But if you see the commercials for like Rick Salty and some of the other ones, those are actually antipsychotics. That's why they have the warning of not giving it to people with dementia. and so there's Judah: Because it will have a paradoxical effect. Frankie: Well, it increases the chance of early mortality in people with dementia. so when you're dealing with treatment resistant depression, different modalities like adding an antipsychotic can help break somebody out of it. some more invasive therapies like electroconvulsive therapy I've seen night and day in a client before and after electroconvulsive therapy. There's Judah: And it's not like they show in the movies, it's not painful, it's not Frankie: No, you're you're sedated. you're yeah. It's Judah: It's very gentle. Frankie: very gentle, it's very calculated, it is over multiple sessions. I think the average treatment is four to six sessions, but you can be done in as few as two depending on how well you respond to it. There's the transcranial magnetism. I'm getting the acronym wrong. is Judah: I've I've read some stuff about that. Frankie: it it it sounds kind of woozy, but it Apparently again, early research is showing some promising for that and the psychedelics as well. Judah: the psychedelic research and why Oregon legalized it is because they wanted specific groups of people to have access to psychedelics specifically in a treatment setting, which I think is a very admirable goal. However, the licensing process that it takes for the people who must sit with you while you're experiencing I guess you could call them symptoms of taking a psychedelic drug. You're trippin' balls. Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: are incredibly expensive. It's very, very time consuming. It's also unclear. And insurance does not pay for it. So the sessions themselves are basically inaccessible to most people because of the cost Frankie: Cost prohibitive. Yep. Judah: prohibition. and the supply and demand. So if I have a client who hypothetically, is dealing with an opiate addiction and you think they have a treatment resistant opiate addiction, there is promising research on the use of psychedelics in treating treatment resistant substance use disorder. And those people just straight up do not have access to that therapy modality. Frankie: Yep. Because generally if people are that far into their addiction, they've they've Judah: They're not gonna have three thousand dollars Frankie: lost all ability to support themselves. Judah: Yeah, and you have to pay cash on the barrel head Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: to go I just I wish it was things like the use of ketamine in treatment resistant depression is been very Frankie: Yep, that's another thing. Judah: has been very promising and a lot of insurances do pay for it. Frankie: Yes. Judah: And it's a lot easier to get your little babysitter. Frankie: Mm. Judah: But for some reason, psychedelic mushrooms, which in the lethality scale are some of the Frankie: Significantly lower. Judah: significantly lower. Some of the safest like least risk of addiction, least risk of death. Frankie: Yeah. And it may be one of those things, like part of it is that it is super stigmatized because you think of psychedelic mushrooms and you think of, you know, people on the street talking to a lamppost and stuff like that. it gets very much tied in with the, scary, crazy, unhoused image that people push, which is completely wrong on multiple levels. Judah: Multiple levels. Frankie: But the fact that there is starting to be some research and that Oregon, as onerous as they've made the requirements, has legalized it for treatment purposes, that is a first step, right? The first step to marijuana legalization was the Oregon Medical Marijuana Program. Right? And then that expanded, and then there's enough signatures to get on the ballot, and now it's legal. So hopefully. It is a small step, but hopefully it's the first step towards something more accessible down the road for treatment purposes Judah: Yeah. F for for treatment for treatment purpose. Frankie: or even recreational purposes eventually, right? Like Judah: You really shouldn't drive if you're taking a psychedelic. You you Frankie: No, you really shouldn't. Judah: really shouldn't. Frankie: You should not drive if you've taken any substances unless they are substances that are supposed to make your mind work better, like antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds, etcetera. Judah: Yeah. Nothing that impairs with your ability to operate a giant murder machine. Yeah. please nobody do that. I have hope 'cause I you know, internet research and the I see how the opioid epidemic is impacting these really lovely, lovely people that I work with Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and I watched a documentary about the use of a different extremely potent psychedelic that's outlawed in the United States called Ibigaine. And Frankie: Mm, mm-hmm. Judah: it's study in other countries specifically for the fact that it can reduce withdrawal symptoms and produce a positive longer term effect on the brain, the people are less likely to relapse, is like you at least wanna have good studies if there's something that could be helping people with opiate addiction. Frankie: Right. But because we're a puritanical country, the feds, the DEA are more focused on enforcement than actually being like, hey, let's study some of the medical benefits of cannabis. And Judah: Yeah. Frankie: you have to legalize it in order to do that, because you can't have people committing a federal crime while they're in a study. Judah: Well, so there's a lot of these drugs that are Schedule One drugs, which means that the federal government classifies them as having no scientific or medical benefit whatsoever. So th they can't even be explored and so when we're hearing Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: about, you know, the rumors or the tales from other countries about these restricted substances being useful, we just can't even Frankie: Right. And so like a schedule two class would be something like a hydrocodone, which is absolutely a medicine and absolutely has medical purpose. Also highly addictive. Judah: Highly addictive. I've never seen the Ibogaine plant, I've never heard of I've never met anybody that I know has taken it. But from this little documentary is like it's an extremely intense, very, very potent psychedelic. So like you are not in your body anymore. And I can't imagine if somebody's like, you know, I did that yesterday, crapped my pants, threw up, had an out-of-body experience. I'm gonna do it again next week. Frankie: Right. Right. Yeah, drugs are varied and wonderful and scary. but under a specialist's care it should be absolutely fine. Judah: I am a smart educated person and I do not trust me to monitor my own antidepressants. Frankie: I mean, that's why doctors prescribe them, right? Judah: I mean like taking them every Yes. I go to a person who went through a very miserable seventy four years of school to Frankie: Mm. Judah: tell me what the right dose is for me 'cause if I was like, Well let's just guess, I'll probably fry my brain. Frankie: Well, when I started on antidepressants, I was in crisis and so I went to my primary care provider and they did kind of just guess and started me at two eye of a dose and I felt very strange in my head. And then I finally got into a psychiatrist and he lowered the dose and I felt much better. Judah: Yeah, gotta get the gotta get the right one. Frankie: yeah. Long story short, drugs can be fun, drugs can be useful, drugs are highly regulated, and maybe we need to take a look at how highly regulated they are in order to make sure that we can study them for medicine, because a lot more things are medicinal than you think. Judah: Yes. I think my takeaway in the shorter version is Write to your senator and congressperson Frankie: Mm-hmm. Judah: and ask them to ask the federal government to re examine the scheduled classification of drugs because some of these drugs could be very useful for current crises that we're having. Frankie: Yep. Yes, absolutely. So that Judah: All right. Frankie: brings us to the end next week. You will finally get my hearsay case because I insist on it. And otherwise we'll be doing a grab bag of weird old laws. Judah: Weird old laws, maybe even current laws, and a surprise segment that even Frankie didn't know about that I thought of and forgot to bring up in our pre-show conversation. We're gonna be talking about a very recent major legal case in a new segment I'm calling What in the Fresh Hell Is This? Frankie: So like, subscribe, leave a rating, leave a review. if you're aware of a weird state or local law that we might not be aware of that shouldn't be on the books but still is or was least recently repealed, give us an email at dumbdefensespodcast at gmail.com or reach out to us on Facebook, Instagram, or Blue Sky. And I think I hit everything and we'll see you next week. Judah: See you next week. Bye. Frankie: Bye.