Latest / Aggressively Human: For experts choosing expansion over extraction. / The role of a website with Eleanor Mayrhofer

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The role of a website with Eleanor Mayrhofer · Aggressively Human: For experts choosing expansion over extraction.

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Aggressively Human podcast where being seen online,
0:06
SPEAKER_00: especially if you publish a lot of places is both harder and easier than you think.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: So my name is Jessica Lackey.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'm Meg Casebolt.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: And we're super excited today to welcome a guest, Eleanor.
0:19
SPEAKER_00: She said her last name.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm doing it again.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Meijer Hofer.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: Meijer Hofer.
0:23
SPEAKER_00: Did I do it?
0:24
SPEAKER_00: Good.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: I was listening.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: I know how to spell your name and I can't say it for the life of me.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: See, I can't
0:31
SPEAKER_01: spell it.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: So between the two of us, we'll get it figured out.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: But Eleanor, welcome to the show.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to be here.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: So give us a bit of the backstory about what your business was,
0:45
SPEAKER_00: what you've pivoted it to now,
0:47
SPEAKER_00: who you serve,
0:48
SPEAKER_00: and also where you're located,
0:49
SPEAKER_00: because that's fun facts and interesting for like sort of,
0:53
SPEAKER_00: you know, where your business is going.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, I'll try to do this quickly.
0:59
SPEAKER_02: So I'm in Los Angeles right now,
1:01
SPEAKER_02: which is where I'm originally from,
1:03
SPEAKER_02: but I've lived in Munich, Germany for the last 20-something years.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: I just moved there on a whim,
1:07
SPEAKER_02: had a good job,
1:08
SPEAKER_02: or got a good job at what is now known as Publicis Sapient, and stayed there.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: And so my background is in visual design.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: I graduated from design school in the mid-90s,
1:21
SPEAKER_02: and that was just like got parachuted into the Web 1.0
1:27
SPEAKER_02: Boom.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: And I started then,
1:31
SPEAKER_02: you could be like just a web designer,
1:33
SPEAKER_02: but when the crash happened, you had to expand your skills.
1:37
SPEAKER_02: So I developed into UX,
1:39
SPEAKER_02: project management,
1:41
SPEAKER_02: and also methodology design and methodology, like global methodology work.
1:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: And then I,
1:50
SPEAKER_02: after over a decade at like a global agency,
1:54
SPEAKER_02: I had an F and I went freelance and did all kinds of things, Etsy shops, e-commerce.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: I just, I wanted, after 10 years, like my detox was, I wanna make my own shoes.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm like over it.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: But I'm not really that crafty at the end of the day.
2:09
SPEAKER_02: So in, I'll just speed forward, in the pandemic,
2:16
SPEAKER_02: A little before the pandemic, I had a toddler and I really didn't want to contract anymore.
2:23
SPEAKER_02: I was like contracting at different agencies, doing different kinds of things.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: And so I said,
2:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
2:29
SPEAKER_02: I've always wanted to start my own web design shop,
2:33
SPEAKER_02: but I was, to be just really honest, very wary of having a client-based business.
2:38
SPEAKER_02: I think I had been on too many big engagements and Where there was a lot of design
2:42
SPEAKER_02: by committee and endless decision making.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: And I was just like, I just want to make stuff in some format and sell it.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: But push came to shove and I just decided to do it.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
2:54
SPEAKER_02: running your own business as a one person web designer is much different
3:00
SPEAKER_02: than like working at a global agency with offshore development teams in India.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: It's like a whole different count.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: And you have to learn.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, you're going to get an education in business and marketing and all these things.
3:12
SPEAKER_02: And so that was in 2019.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: And I just started out as that.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, OK, I can do this.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: I had it.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: There was a mom at my child's home-based daycare who was also a UX person.
3:26
SPEAKER_02: And she said, does anybody really need that anymore?
3:28
SPEAKER_02: And I felt kind of defensive because I was like, I don't know, but I hope so.
3:33
SPEAKER_02: And I found out that yes, people still need it.
3:36
SPEAKER_02: And even as we are moving into this AI era and none of us know really what's going
3:43
SPEAKER_02: to happen, I'm like busier than ever.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: And right now I'm sort of pivoting.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: I still do web design.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: That's what I do.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: I call that the presenting symptom though,
3:54
SPEAKER_02: because what I have seen is that a lot of my clients come to me
3:59
SPEAKER_02: And some really just need a website.
4:01
SPEAKER_02: And in some cases I do that.
4:02
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes I refer them on to peers and collaborators,
4:08
SPEAKER_02: but usually what they need is some kind of digital strategy.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
4:13
SPEAKER_02: they either need,
4:15
SPEAKER_02: they say like,
4:16
SPEAKER_02: I need more clients or I need to be seen as,
4:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:20
SPEAKER_02: a go-to person in my field, or I need to break through with the stuff I'm writing.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
4:27
SPEAKER_02: a website,
4:28
SPEAKER_02: May or may not be part of that,
4:30
SPEAKER_02: but they don't have a language to say what they need.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: So the way I define myself now is that I'm a digital strategist and I help people
4:39
SPEAKER_02: that regularly publish ideas,
4:42
SPEAKER_02: people in organizations that regularly publish ideas,
4:45
SPEAKER_02: consolidate, streamline, and showcase their work online.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: So Meg and I, obviously, we are...
4:54
SPEAKER_00: You know,
4:55
SPEAKER_00: content creator natives in the sense that like we create for,
5:00
SPEAKER_00: you know, the algorithms and things like that.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: I assume some of your, so of course we're like, yes, of course you need a website.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: But I assume some of the people you're working with are not sort of creator forward.
5:11
SPEAKER_00: They're academics.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: They're,
5:13
SPEAKER_00: you know, other,
5:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
5:14
SPEAKER_00: other people who don't necessarily didn't come up in like the,
5:18
SPEAKER_00: you know, put your stuff on your own website group, or maybe they are.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: No, they are.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: Usually they're experts in some fields.
5:27
SPEAKER_02: So right now I'm working with a think tank and there are plenty of Gen Zers on this.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm a Gen X.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: But still you think,
5:36
SPEAKER_02: I have one client who's a barrister in London,
5:39
SPEAKER_02: but he also has sort of a coaching business.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: He's, you know, all these people are usually quite successful.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: And he said, you know, my daughter said, you don't need anybody to do this for you.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: You can just, you know, do it with AI.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: But most people or many people,
5:53
SPEAKER_02: Another client I had was C-level at Novartis for several years and is transitioning
5:57
SPEAKER_02: to doing executive coaching.
5:59
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times, some of these people had a comms person.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: They don't touch this stuff.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: And they're probably on the other side of, for sure, 35, but often 40.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's not that they couldn't learn,
6:14
SPEAKER_02: but they're not going to go and prompt Claude or go into Claude Design.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: They're not doing any of that.
6:21
SPEAKER_02: They don't even know where to start.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: And again, it's not that they're smart people, but even if they could, they don't want to.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: Just like I,
6:28
SPEAKER_02: this is the thing I realized,
6:29
SPEAKER_02: like I could do all this stuff,
6:30
SPEAKER_02: but I could also grow my own coffee beans and like roast them.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: I don't, I wanna go buy some good coffee beans and make a cup of coffee.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: So even the people that I work with that are digital,
6:45
SPEAKER_02: like more than digital natives, they don't know how to use all the tools.
6:50
SPEAKER_02: You know,
6:51
SPEAKER_02: or workflow or,
6:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
6:53
SPEAKER_02: they can do stuff on their phone and they're not intimidated by it,
6:56
SPEAKER_02: but they just don't.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: It's not like everybody knows this stuff.
6:59
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of times that's that's not what they're looking for anyways.
7:01
SPEAKER_02: They're looking for a guide to help them with the entire process
7:05
SPEAKER_02: because they don't know where to start and it's overwhelming.
7:09
SPEAKER_01: And I think also like just because the tools are available doesn't mean that it's
7:13
SPEAKER_01: the best use of your time to learn how to create from them.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: And especially what you just said about like,
7:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:19
SPEAKER_01: their clients' kids are saying,
7:21
SPEAKER_01: you don't need to hire somebody to do that because like Gen Z is very like proactive
7:28
SPEAKER_01: about like, let me just like, they're so scrappy.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Other people are like, well, just because I can doesn't mean I should.
7:37
SPEAKER_01: Just because I can doesn't mean that I'll create something at the same quality level
7:40
SPEAKER_01: as somebody who has been doing this for decades.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's not just about,
7:45
SPEAKER_02: yes, it is about quality, but they understand on some level that there's more to it.
7:49
SPEAKER_02: There's positioning,
7:50
SPEAKER_02: there's brand,
7:52
SPEAKER_02: you know,
7:53
SPEAKER_02: they need to like,
7:55
SPEAKER_02: there's a lot of this,
7:56
SPEAKER_02: I should post more on LinkedIn, or do I need to send out emails?
7:59
SPEAKER_02: Like they know there are all of these things and they It's like I said,
8:03
SPEAKER_02: it's overwhelming and they're not sure what it is exactly they need to do
8:08
SPEAKER_02: to meet their objectives.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: So for this type of audience that you're working with,
8:15
SPEAKER_00: what does sort of the digital strategy look like for them?
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm,
8:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:20
SPEAKER_00: they're,
8:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
8:22
SPEAKER_00: I would imagine the C-suite at Novartis is not like,
8:25
SPEAKER_00: let me just get on TikTok and like make videos unless he is, I don't know.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: But like, what are some of their goals?
8:30
SPEAKER_00: What are some of like the things that are in the way for them?
8:34
SPEAKER_00: And sort of what are some of the strategies that like make sense for them,
8:40
SPEAKER_00: but wouldn't make sense for other people that you help them with?
8:43
SPEAKER_02: So it's quite personal.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: So let's take the Novartis guy.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times when working with somebody,
8:49
SPEAKER_02: and this is where I think the human factor comes in,
8:55
SPEAKER_02: I really believe,
8:56
SPEAKER_02: and as I'm sure you do,
8:57
SPEAKER_02: like right fit distribution method for the person's temperament.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: So when I'm working with somebody, I'll say, you know, do you like to talk?
9:06
SPEAKER_02: Do you like to write?
9:07
SPEAKER_02: You know, what...
9:11
SPEAKER_02: What format are you comfortable communicating in?
9:13
SPEAKER_02: And so in his case,
9:14
SPEAKER_02: it became clear to me that he was he was a very contemplative guy and he needed
9:19
SPEAKER_02: to write.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: So it was clear that,
9:23
SPEAKER_02: you know,
9:23
SPEAKER_02: a blog was going to be part of a strategy and then a lot of and he had
9:26
SPEAKER_02: an incredible network.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't anything,
9:29
SPEAKER_02: you know, we're going to do this and you're going to get on this platform.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: It was pretty straightforward.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: It was like, you know.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: We're going to keep the lights on on LinkedIn with some posts that will start as a blog post.
9:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, I believe in like, I have like a blog first.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: If you're writing, you know, long form first and then distribute that out.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: Nothing revolutionary there.
9:47
SPEAKER_02: But, you know,
9:50
SPEAKER_02: and it was going to be getting his ideas out and using them as an asset
9:56
SPEAKER_02: with his network and as a way to communicate.
9:59
SPEAKER_02: And that fit his personality and what he was trying to do.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
10:04
SPEAKER_02: Another person is an academic who is a philosophy professor at a UC.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: And believe it or not, there is philosophy talk.
10:15
SPEAKER_02: And this ended up being a great format for him.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: And he's also, you know, somebody, he's in his early 50s, but he was really comfortable on it.
10:23
SPEAKER_02: And he is talking to students or other students.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: So that was a perfect platform for him.
10:28
SPEAKER_02: There was an audience there.
10:31
SPEAKER_02: If you want to learn about,
10:32
SPEAKER_02: you know, Personal beefs between Hegel and whoever else, like people are interested.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: So it's very, it is very specific to the person or organization.
10:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm working with a think tank right now.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: A lot of it is LinkedIn,
10:50
SPEAKER_02: but in some cases for certain projects,
10:54
SPEAKER_02: we are starting,
10:55
SPEAKER_02: and I wrestled with this a long time, but in the end, it made sense.
10:59
SPEAKER_02: Just for a specific project,
11:00
SPEAKER_02: we're creating a Substack because We're dealing with a lot
11:03
SPEAKER_02: of very specific issues around energy in Africa and a lot of people and a lot
11:09
SPEAKER_02: of like really, really technical in the weeds discussion is happening there.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: So for this one particular issue,
11:15
SPEAKER_02: we're gonna like have a Substack, but that is not their main channel.
11:19
SPEAKER_02: Still a lot of communications, this newsletter, LinkedIn and that kind of thing.
11:25
SPEAKER_02: So it's really, you know, I like to just say it's sort of like creating a recipe.
11:29
SPEAKER_02: You know,
11:29
SPEAKER_02: you've got all your ingredients,
11:32
SPEAKER_02: Some of that is,
11:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean, the six components I use are a goal, your positioning and your brand.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
11:41
SPEAKER_02: there's some overlap here with branding,
11:43
SPEAKER_02: but also platform, content and distribution network.
11:48
SPEAKER_02: It's like figuring out what all those six components are going to be and putting them together.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: So where do most people go wrong with the workflow?
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Because you kind of talked about website as the presenting symptom,
12:00
SPEAKER_00: but then you also talked about workflow.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'd be curious to hear what is maybe missing or where you help them with
12:07
SPEAKER_00: the workflow part of being known for their ideas and having everything in
12:13
SPEAKER_00: a digital home.
12:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a good example is one client that came to me,
12:21
SPEAKER_02: and he really was looking to be He had the background for it.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: He wanted to be known as like an expert in geopolitics and what's going on
12:31
SPEAKER_02: with like energy right now.
12:35
SPEAKER_02: He had started a think tank, but had no website for it.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: And he had a local TED talk and he had been posting on LinkedIn, but like gaining no traction.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: So, you know,
12:46
SPEAKER_02: my advice to him was like,
12:48
SPEAKER_02: if you have this think tank, you need to build it out as a website.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: And the goal was not like, because then people will come and see your stuff.
12:56
SPEAKER_02: It's like, you need to showcase what you can do.
13:00
SPEAKER_02: And then you need to find bigger publications and point them to that body of work
13:09
SPEAKER_02: and then write for those publications.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: And that is how it's not going to be.
13:13
SPEAKER_02: This is like I'm posting my head off on LinkedIn and nothing's happening.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, nothing is going to keep happening.
13:21
SPEAKER_02: You need to just have this infrastructure to show to the right people and be able
13:27
SPEAKER_02: to point to those,
13:28
SPEAKER_02: like it or not, at least especially in this industry, legacy people.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: So mainstream publications or even,
13:35
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:36
SPEAKER_02: industry journals that you and I haven't heard of,
13:38
SPEAKER_02: but that policy people go to still matter.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: Even if it's just that you can say I was published in this and recognized as an expert.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: But just like, I see this a lot.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: It's like,
13:51
SPEAKER_02: I'm just posting my head off on,
13:53
SPEAKER_02: you know,
13:53
SPEAKER_02: fill in the blank platform,
13:55
SPEAKER_02: LinkedIn, TikTok, Reels, or people will have just the total wrong platform.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: One guy was,
14:04
SPEAKER_02: he was the head of a major hospital and he wanted to leave and sort of kind of talk
14:09
SPEAKER_02: about, you know, become an expert in hospital administration.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And he, just because he didn't,
14:16
SPEAKER_02: you know, that's a perfect example of a person who really knows nothing.
14:20
SPEAKER_02: A very seasoned, very experienced professional.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: I think this guy was in his early 60s.
14:24
SPEAKER_02: And it's not just about like, well, he's old and he doesn't get it.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: It's his whole life has been, had nothing to do with the digital world.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: So he, I don't know if he had,
14:34
SPEAKER_02: you know,
14:35
SPEAKER_02: a niece or a nephew or something,
14:36
SPEAKER_02: but he's like, I guess I need to start posting on Instagram.
14:39
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, that is exactly not what you need to be doing.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: No, you don't, sir.
14:43
SPEAKER_02: Good news.
14:44
SPEAKER_02: Good news.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to save you from that.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: So it's like, no, we need some white papers.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: We need some case studies.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: You probably could just stay on LinkedIn, maybe.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: But so there.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, every time this is what is it?
14:57
SPEAKER_02: The curse of knowledge.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: You're just like, what?
14:59
SPEAKER_02: No, of course not.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: And then you realize, oh, I, you know, I know a couple of things.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think also, you know, to your point of you don't need to publish all the time everywhere.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: You don't even need to publish everywhere.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: And you don't need to publish all the time anymore.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, it used to be if you wanted to get found, you had to have like a giant body of work.
15:19
SPEAKER_01: And now we're getting to a point where it's like you need to have like Three
15:23
SPEAKER_01: to five really strong pages on your site.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, yeah.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: And that's like,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: once you get that core nucleus in place,
15:30
SPEAKER_01: then you can start to pitch yourself out to the places that need to see the body
15:33
SPEAKER_01: of work, but it doesn't have to be giant anymore.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think that there's still this like,
15:38
SPEAKER_01: oh, you have to have a following on these popular platforms.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: But like, you really don't.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: You just need to be...
15:48
SPEAKER_01: Understood by the right people and have the credential signals of authority.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: And I think have some solid work behind you.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Those three to five pages that need to be really good.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: So I've got you both here.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: We're going to talk about these pages because everyone,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: the Gen Zers,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: but also,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
16:09
SPEAKER_00: clients of mine,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: there's a podcast I listen to and the host is like, I'm now getting into AI.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: Look at this prompt.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: And I read in my whole website.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yes.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Four months ago, I looked at your website, by the way, because I was curious what you're doing.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh,
16:22
SPEAKER_00: they updated it with Claude because it looks like every other website
16:24
SPEAKER_00: that has been updated with Claude.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: I want to know both like,
16:28
SPEAKER_00: because you do web design on Squarespace,
16:31
SPEAKER_00: why you haven't gone in on the,
16:33
SPEAKER_00: the vibe coding,
16:33
SPEAKER_00: the apps,
16:34
SPEAKER_00: both from like an aesthetics perspective,
16:36
SPEAKER_00: a functionality perspective,
16:38
SPEAKER_00: but also like a backend,
16:39
SPEAKER_00: like, you know, accessibility, stability, legibility to the LLMs.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: I have you both here.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: So I want to, um,
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Understand when a vibe coded thingy is appropriate versus when you're like,
16:52
SPEAKER_00: yeah, I wouldn't really do that because that's not matching my audience.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: It's not matching my needs.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know about the back ends of the websites like the two of you.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, in my case, it's really.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if I can get like a little shop talky,
17:12
SPEAKER_02: the reason I looked at all platforms and, you know, I think Shopify is great.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: WordPress, I have thoughts about.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a strong platform,
17:23
SPEAKER_02: but ultimately my model was I am not interested in maintaining people's sites.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: I want to give my clients the keys and I want them to be empowered.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: I looked at Webflow,
17:32
SPEAKER_02: I looked at everything and for better or for worse,
17:35
SPEAKER_02: and there is plenty of worse in there,
17:37
SPEAKER_02: Squarespace was the only platform I really felt confident saying,
17:41
SPEAKER_02: you can use this thing.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: And that was big enough that wasn't going to disappear overnight.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: There were some other ones that have, you know, come and gone or still hanging on.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: But that it was just like, no, I can't give somebody that I looked at Framer.
17:58
SPEAKER_02: All of these are great platforms.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: But again,
18:00
SPEAKER_02: for the type of people I'm working with,
18:04
SPEAKER_02: they can usually 90 percent of the time they get it.
18:07
SPEAKER_02: And I like say, if you can use PowerPoint, you can use this thing.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: That's kind of how.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: I frame it.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: Now, when I saw Claude design,
18:15
SPEAKER_02: I got very excited because I don't really want to continue fooling around
18:21
SPEAKER_02: in people's websites and I don't want to be platform specific.
18:27
SPEAKER_02: The think tank I'm working with now,
18:28
SPEAKER_02: I really wrestled because think tanks,
18:31
SPEAKER_02: they just do an enormous amount of publishing.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: But this one is sort of like a startup think tank.
18:37
SPEAKER_02: So it's very small.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: They're Operating on a very lean team.
18:41
SPEAKER_02: Everybody's wearing a million hats.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: And I've just worked with WordPress too much.
18:46
SPEAKER_02: And I know I've had enough what I call WordPress refugees.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: I was like, they're not going to do it.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: They're not going to be able to do it.
18:52
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of these organizations, they have to wait for the guy to publish stuff.
18:57
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is just going to be a mess.
18:59
SPEAKER_02: And so I, you know, just...
19:04
SPEAKER_02: Plug-ins galore.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: I souped up the site as much as I could to do the customizations they wanted,
19:10
SPEAKER_02: but I still, and they are doing things on their own and it makes me relieved.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: I think, okay, that was the right choice.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: You know,
19:17
SPEAKER_02: I see them put together a post with jump links and everything and I was like,
19:20
SPEAKER_02: okay, they did it.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: It's good.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: So that is my rationale for doing that.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: But when I saw Claude,
19:27
SPEAKER_02: I was very, design,
19:28
SPEAKER_02: I actually thought this is great because I can just quickly do Mockups
19:33
SPEAKER_02: and do things I need to do.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: And then I can partner if they wanna,
19:36
SPEAKER_02: if WordPress is a good fit for them, I can work with a partner to do it.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't necessarily wanna do that.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: It depends on the size of the organization and the technical level of the person and
19:50
SPEAKER_02: the amount of publishing they're gonna be doing.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: Usually for my clients, unless it's a bigger organization, it's just too much firepower.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: I think and too big of a trade off between like learning curve and
20:08
SPEAKER_02: customization
20:09
SPEAKER_02: or abilities to customize what you want to do.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: Does that answer your question?
20:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to hear what Meg's got to say and then I'll have followers.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: I would say that any of these tools that are creating in a vacuum are too breakable.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: So you can say, sure, we have the site that we had Claude design build.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: But then where are you putting it?
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Where are you hosting it?
20:33
SPEAKER_01: How are you updating it?
20:34
SPEAKER_01: If something changes, then the code changes.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: If you don't know how to make those updates yourself,
20:39
SPEAKER_01: then you have to go back to Claude every time.
20:41
SPEAKER_01: And this memory isn't that great.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: And it's constantly updating its shit.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: So if you are reliant on a tool that you don't understand,
20:50
SPEAKER_01: And you don't understand what it's creating for you,
20:53
SPEAKER_01: then it's going to break more up and then it's going to work.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: So I would rather have,
20:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:58
SPEAKER_01: to Eleanor's point,
20:59
SPEAKER_01: I would rather have a tool like a Squarespace where there is a learning curve,
21:04
SPEAKER_01: but it's less of a learning curve than many of the other tools out there.
21:07
SPEAKER_01: And it does have staying power.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: Where you learn it once,
21:10
SPEAKER_01: and sure,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: that big shift from Squarespace 7.0 to Squarespace 7.1,
21:15
SPEAKER_01: that was a nightmare for everyone.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: But it was a one-time thing.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: It's over.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: Now you know Squarespace 7.1, yada, yada, yada, right?
21:21
SPEAKER_01: But I'm a WordPress gal.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: I've been WordPress for 17 years.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: And I can navigate the plugins,
21:30
SPEAKER_01: but I don't expect my clients to navigate all the plugins and all
21:32
SPEAKER_01: the different themes.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: And like, I already have a theme that I'm locked into because it's the theme that I learned.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, but I bought a lifetime deal.
21:38
SPEAKER_01: And now I wish that I'd chosen something else,
21:40
SPEAKER_01: but I don't want to have to go back and do legacy updates to everything.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Like, and the longer that you're in business, the more you have to worry about that.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: And if you're vibe coding and you're building something that can be up like this,
21:53
SPEAKER_01: and then you're building on something that has legacy or you're building towards
21:56
SPEAKER_01: a legacy that has a future and it breaks,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: that's just one more thing you have to do a thousand times.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a hundred percent.
22:03
SPEAKER_02: And then you want to do things, you know, people want newsletters, they want all these things.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: And it's just like you, everything's homegrown and home cooked.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: And I just...
22:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's not, people think it's easy, but it's not easy.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: It's a new skill set you have to learn.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: So what I'm seeing and what I like is just good tools that smartly integrate AI.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I use this, I use a tool called Octopus.
22:27
SPEAKER_02: It's like a site mapping tool and they're integrating AI in really clever ways
22:31
SPEAKER_02: that I'm very grateful that really improve my workflow.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: And some are just,
22:36
SPEAKER_02: you know,
22:37
SPEAKER_02: throwing AI and everything and making everything confusing and complicated.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: But what I like to see is it integrated well into a tool that already exists
22:47
SPEAKER_02: and like a platform and a suite.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like if,
22:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:52
SPEAKER_00: if I'm like tossing up like a conference website or something like that,
22:55
SPEAKER_00: yeah, I'll like code that.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: But if I want a stable...
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Publishing platform,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: like where I don't,
23:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't totally know what a CMS,
23:05
SPEAKER_00: I know it says content management system, but I don't actually know what that means.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: And like,
23:08
SPEAKER_00: I was like,
23:09
SPEAKER_00: so again,
23:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm too busy to try to figure out how do I get a blog on Framer to do this?
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Does it come natively or not?
23:18
SPEAKER_00: Or should I use ghost or all these things and like ghost has themes.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, or I can just be on Squarespace because I know that that stuff will make that.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: I can, I know how to like make that work with Google.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't, Like, I'm like, it's for my home base.
23:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I want a stable platform that I know how to get it to show up and search.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: And I know,
23:37
SPEAKER_00: although I don't know if you discovered this,
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Eleanor,
23:40
SPEAKER_00: but apparently the category and tag dropdown on Squarespace, they broke the blocks.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And now when you do, um,
23:48
SPEAKER_00: You know,
23:48
SPEAKER_00: tag drop downs for the categories that are like multiple words,
23:51
SPEAKER_00: it breaks and it sends you a 404 site.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: So my Squarespace person,
23:54
SPEAKER_00: she's like, Oh, yeah, that's a bug that they and I'm like, fix the bug.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: But you know, like the blog posts still live there.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: And I don't,
24:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:03
SPEAKER_00: if I'm looking at legacy,
24:05
SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure that my stuff shows up in all the places and I don't know enough
24:09
SPEAKER_00: about web or have any desire to like figure out how to make Claude Sites with Vercel
24:16
SPEAKER_00: and GitHub.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to do that.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to learn that.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:23
SPEAKER_02: To me, that's just an order of magnitude of more complexity.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: And so it's not – it may.
24:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm waiting for this all to change.
24:33
SPEAKER_02: I'm hedging my bets.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm staying open.
24:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't be surprised if in 18 months what I'm doing is radically different.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: But for now, I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and it's not dropping.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: I had a discovery call this morning with somebody who,
24:52
SPEAKER_01: before she went into digital marketing, she worked for a hula hoop brand.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: I was like, well, that's obviously what I thought you were going to say.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: Everyone I know has worked with hula hoops.
25:02
SPEAKER_01: And she said that one of the things that they did to to increase their sales was
25:07
SPEAKER_01: to do like a five part walkthrough video of how they use the specific type
25:12
SPEAKER_01: of plastic to make the hula hoops.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And her husband was like, but you like people are going to just like DIY this.
25:19
SPEAKER_01: She's like, then let them.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: People are going to DIY anything.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: But the people who I want to serve are the ones who are going to look
25:24
SPEAKER_01: at this five part video about like the specifics of the plastic and how
25:28
SPEAKER_01: the mold works and be like, well, fuck that.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: I'll just buy a $40 hula hoop, you know?
25:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think we what we're talking about here,
25:35
SPEAKER_01: Jessica,
25:35
SPEAKER_01: what you brought up very smartly is like the people who are
25:37
SPEAKER_01: the DIYers are always going to be DIYing and they're always going to be pushing
25:41
SPEAKER_01: and they're always going to be trying new things and they're always going
25:43
SPEAKER_01: to be innovating and adopting new technology and like good for them.
25:48
SPEAKER_01: Because they're the ones who are going to be pushing the boundaries and trying new things.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: And then the rest of us who maybe aren't as risk tolerant and or who don't have
26:00
SPEAKER_01: as much time to just fuck around with these new tools.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: Sorry for all the swearing, but clearly I feel strongly about this.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: They're going to change the way that design looks.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: And then the web designers are going to have to go,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: oh, now Claude Code is doing this new thing and people expect that in the design.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: And so then the design aesthetics will have to catch up to what's happening there.
26:23
SPEAKER_01: But it's going to be on the legacy tools like the Squarespace,
26:26
SPEAKER_01: like the WordPress, or at least that's my my trend or foresight or whatever.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: What's going to happen is, yes,
26:33
SPEAKER_01: they're going to be the early adopters who can go vibe code a website
26:35
SPEAKER_01: and keep it live.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: But for people who don't want to learn this and don't want to be the early adopters
26:41
SPEAKER_01: and they just want something stable that works like that's not the tool for them.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Go just buy a hula hoop.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: So more questions.
26:54
SPEAKER_00: The backlash to AI writing is becoming more salient.
27:00
SPEAKER_00: The amount of times I hear dead internet theory that I read it or I listen to it,
27:06
SPEAKER_00: I consume quite a bit of material, as maybe you both know.
27:11
SPEAKER_00: And Megan,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: I've talked about this ad nauseum,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: but especially for your people,
27:14
SPEAKER_00: why is having A publishing home and a publishing practice so important.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like besides the obvious of like,
27:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:24
SPEAKER_00: that's how you show your receipts in some cases,
27:27
SPEAKER_00: but like, why is this something that your people maybe weren't doing or didn't have?
27:32
SPEAKER_00: And why is it,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: now we know it's like super important,
27:34
SPEAKER_00: but like,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: what was kind of the,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: where they were,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: maybe they're new,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: but like,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear more about like,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: like how your people got to like expertise without like a home, digital home.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, well, a lot of times their expertise is, it's a funny combination.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: A lot of times just de facto people come to me and they do something else.
27:57
SPEAKER_02: They are An executive.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: They are a lawyer.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: They are a novelist.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: And they are actually usually pretty good writers,
28:06
SPEAKER_02: even if that's not how they define themselves.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: But they aren't content creators.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: And for most of them,
28:12
SPEAKER_02: it would never occur to them to just like generate something in AI because,
28:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:20
SPEAKER_02: I think Nathan Berry or somebody once said like,
28:24
SPEAKER_02: He was one of the rework guys, like Hire the Better Writer.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: This was like in another APOC.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: But these people tend to write and want to continue to write, not all, but many.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: And so
28:41
SPEAKER_02: the idea of just prompting their way to something is not something
28:48
SPEAKER_02: that they would think about doing.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: But at the same time,
28:52
SPEAKER_02: like with one case with a novelist,
28:55
SPEAKER_02: I've worked with a client and she's a recognized novelist.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: She was long listed for the Booker Prize.
29:02
SPEAKER_02: It's funny because a novelist is not a website copywriter.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: And she recognizes that and had no idea where to start.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: But like,
29:12
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if this is getting your question,
29:14
SPEAKER_02: but just AI generated content just would not come into the,
29:20
SPEAKER_02: Doesn't come into the discussion.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of these people,
29:24
SPEAKER_02: and for the clients and the people that aren't writers,
29:30
SPEAKER_02: a lot of what's compelling is their stories and their experiences.
29:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's how they showcase their expertise.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: And you're not going to generate that.
29:39
SPEAKER_02: And in other cases, you know, there's a lot of industry jargon.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: And this is kind of new to me.
29:47
SPEAKER_02: And way of phrasing things that,
29:51
SPEAKER_02: you know,
29:52
SPEAKER_02: I suppose if you have your own GPT and you've trained it and done all these things,
29:57
SPEAKER_02: you can get it to talk like you.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: But it's a very specific way of writing.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: And people are very, very, very,
30:05
SPEAKER_02: it's almost like learning another language and like phrasing things just right
30:09
SPEAKER_02: or well.
30:10
SPEAKER_02: This is,
30:13
SPEAKER_02: for example, there's a term in the Climate, climate
30:22
SPEAKER_02: world called stabilization.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: And this is like,
30:25
SPEAKER_02: I don't mean,
30:26
SPEAKER_02: you're not in your head, Meg,
30:27
SPEAKER_02: but this was new to me,
30:28
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:28
SPEAKER_02: it's sort of like, okay,
30:30
SPEAKER_02: there's,
30:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:31
SPEAKER_02: climate change,
30:32
SPEAKER_02: there's prevention, there's adaptation, and now we're in this era of stabilization.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: But that is a very controversial term because it has, don't, Ask me.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: I just work on a website.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: But there was a lot,
30:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm learning a lot of things about like,
30:48
SPEAKER_02: oh, this is controversial because of this, that, and the other thing.
30:50
SPEAKER_02: And I just feel like,
30:52
SPEAKER_02: like in your,
30:53
SPEAKER_02: both of your writings,
30:54
SPEAKER_02: you talk about how AI just gets you to the most common denominator.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: If you're in these very niche,
30:59
SPEAKER_02: very specific worlds that have their own language and own hot button topics,
31:08
SPEAKER_02: I guess you could generate it,
31:09
SPEAKER_02: but it just seems like there's a lot of agonizing over sentences
31:14
SPEAKER_02: that make me think it's just not going to work.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: Unless it's for,
31:19
SPEAKER_02: you know,
31:19
SPEAKER_02: the odd, hey,
31:20
SPEAKER_02: we did a webinar for this post and whatever, but for real important pieces, no way.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it can't be generated from scratch if it has to come from human experience.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: It can't be externally generated in that way, but it could be repurposed and generated.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Jessica,
31:42
SPEAKER_01: you had this point at the beginning in the example of this person said,
31:45
SPEAKER_01: I just had my entire website redone.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: And then you looked at it and you're like, oh, cool, Claude wrote it.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think we're all seeing patterns.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: And a huge part of both what AI does and what human brains do is pattern recognition.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what AI does is just predictive text.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: What's the next word that's going to come next?
32:09
SPEAKER_01: And therefore, like,
32:14
SPEAKER_01: when you put,
32:15
SPEAKER_01: if you're like running tools,
32:17
SPEAKER_01: if you're running text through an AI generator,
32:19
SPEAKER_01: it's looking for what are the words that surprise me?
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Because that's actually the biggest indicator
32:25
SPEAKER_01: of it being human written is High perplexity is the term.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: It's like when the AI looks at it and it's like,
32:32
SPEAKER_01: huh, that wasn't what I expected them to say next.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: That wasn't what I expected them to say here.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of what we're seeing isn't just,
32:40
SPEAKER_01: you know, oh,
32:40
SPEAKER_01: it's using this grammatical term or this cadence or you don't have
32:45
SPEAKER_01: a marketing problem.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: You have a sales problem.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Like any of those sort of cadence based things.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we can catch those patterns and recognize them.
32:54
SPEAKER_01: But also just like the quality of examples that we're seeing.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: That's the point where I go, oh, that one was written by a human.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: That one feels like it makes me feel something in my body when I read it.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: That was run through a human nervous system.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: And that's what's...
33:08
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not that.
33:33
SPEAKER_01: People used to be good writers and then they got AI and they became bad writers.
33:38
SPEAKER_01: It's like bad copywriting has always been out there.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Now bad copywriting is being done faster and at scale.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: And people think that it is good copywriting because...
33:48
SPEAKER_01: Like they don't necessarily know what the copywriting should sound like,
33:51
SPEAKER_01: or they aren't accustomed to telling their own stories.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: And Eleanor,
33:55
SPEAKER_01: to your point about a lot of your clients being good writers,
33:58
SPEAKER_01: being novelists,
33:58
SPEAKER_01: being academics,
34:00
SPEAKER_01: and not really thinking about, oh, I could generate this externally.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: It's because they're used to generating from their own stories.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: Knowledge or their own lived experience or the stories that are running through their heads.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: So they come to copywriting and they have a different style of writing.
34:16
SPEAKER_01: And therefore,
34:17
SPEAKER_01: their copywriting should sound different than AI,
34:21
SPEAKER_01: which has been trained on copywriting templates.
34:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean,
34:25
SPEAKER_02: if there's any silver lining in this,
34:28
SPEAKER_02: it said it's going to force us all to step up our game.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: No, not everyone's going to
34:34
SPEAKER_02: step up their game.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: No, but hopefully it will benefit the people that are stepping up their game and
34:39
SPEAKER_02: that need to attract people that appreciate game.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: I have this on my blog.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: It's called The Human Factor.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Of course, obviously I use AI.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: I use it to copy edit my stuff because I just typos all that stuff, run on sentences.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: And I use it in my process.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: I do guided interviews, and I take that and make copy.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: I don't let clients write website copy anymore.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: That was just so painful for everybody.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: It just delayed things.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: People would get stuck in their heads.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: It's much easier to just do it through guided interviews.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: And this post, I sent it as an email, and, of course, it got a lot of reactions.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay, I'm just going to put this on my blog.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: It's called The Human Factor, where I did an interview with this repeat client.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: And then sometimes I'll just take it and put it in and say,
35:33
SPEAKER_02: and I structure the interview so I'm getting what I know I need.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: And it did all the things, it structured it in a way, but it was like, this is all wrong.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: In his case, the kind of story brand framework was not the right way to go.
35:49
SPEAKER_02: And I just knew it from looking at it.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: He had said a couple things to me,
35:52
SPEAKER_02: and I put this in the post, that like I viscerally responded to.
35:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, just about how he approaches people.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is, this is the headline.
36:01
SPEAKER_02: It's just what he said right here,
36:04
SPEAKER_02: which is like something about, I, I just believe in people or something.
36:09
SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't, you know, like problem solution.
36:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, it was not any of that, but that was it.
36:16
SPEAKER_02: And there's just, yes,
36:20
SPEAKER_02: we can use these tools and yes,
36:22
SPEAKER_02: they can help us, but there's just no replacement for that.
36:25
SPEAKER_02: And I'm not like a, Super woo person or whatever.
36:29
SPEAKER_02: But I do think even across screens and being mediated in Zoom calls,
36:33
SPEAKER_02: there is still somatic cues that tell you things.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: And like I had one and it was very clear and he loved it.
36:41
SPEAKER_02: It was like exactly the right thing to do.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, you can just look at something and say, this is all wrong.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, two things that are coming to mind when I when I when I hear you talk.
36:51
SPEAKER_00: One is that AI design and AI copywriting And writing in general has raised the floor
36:59
SPEAKER_00: of like decent design.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Like this is like a reasonable website.
37:05
SPEAKER_00: But also it's smoosh the ceiling a little bit.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And I've I'm really like if I want to be this is my personal bias.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Maybe if I want to be seen,
37:17
SPEAKER_00: I almost don't want my I want my website to be serviceable and not a distraction.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: By looking too much like AI.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like,
37:25
SPEAKER_00: I want my ideas to be front and center,
37:28
SPEAKER_00: not someone,
37:28
SPEAKER_00: like, with, like, reasonable enough design so that my ideas are the center.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Not someone's like, oh, they built this with Claude.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
37:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have a maybe, like, anti-spicy take on wood design.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: So, in terms of You know, my, my dad's a letterpress printer, like before it was cool.
37:53
SPEAKER_02: He did that and he learned it as a kid and built his business in the seventies and eighties.
37:58
SPEAKER_02: So I grew up learning like typography, book design, all these things.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: And there, when you study book design, there's a, there's a formula of why books work.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: You have gutters, you have page width, you don't force justify type, all these kinds of things.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: And for websites,
38:19
SPEAKER_02: You know,
38:19
SPEAKER_02: unless you're looking to win a design award and everything,
38:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:26
SPEAKER_02: there are things you style and you have a suite of palettes you work,
38:30
SPEAKER_02: but it's really about structure and hierarchy.
38:34
SPEAKER_02: You know,
38:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm not going in there,
38:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm not working with people to win design awards or make it look super tricky.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, and those don't tend to be my clients.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that's not important, but A lot of it is just about communicating a vibe.
38:48
SPEAKER_02: And again, it is intuitive.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: With clients,
38:53
SPEAKER_02: I just have some of them,
38:56
SPEAKER_02: I just tell them,
38:57
SPEAKER_02: you just kind of have to,
38:59
SPEAKER_02: I'm getting a vibe from you and I'm going to translate that on the site.
39:02
SPEAKER_02: And eight to nine times out of 10, that's right.
39:07
SPEAKER_02: It works.
39:08
SPEAKER_02: It works.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: So as we close our interview today,
39:14
SPEAKER_00: are there any messages you want to leave with our listeners about sort
39:18
SPEAKER_00: of owning your expertise online, digital homes, websites, all that good jazz?
39:24
SPEAKER_02: I will just give two like unsolicited pieces of advice I usually give to people,
39:31
SPEAKER_02: which is always by your name, like your domain, always by your name.
39:37
SPEAKER_02: I'm astonished by how many people That I like and are very prominent that they may be on TV.
39:45
SPEAKER_02: They may have huge Instagram platforms.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: And then I go on to GoDaddy or wherever and
39:50
SPEAKER_01: their name is just sitting there.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: And if, go ahead.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: I've got a quick story for that,
39:56
SPEAKER_01: which is that our previous guest and one of my in-person real life friends,
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Erica Tebbins,
40:03
SPEAKER_01: she and I were like having wine one night and she was like,
40:05
SPEAKER_01: I should just buy my name because like, EricaTebbins.com is just sitting there.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: So of course I went and bought EricaTebbins.com just to be an asshole.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: And I like just redirected it to DoleCamp96.com to see how long it would take her to realize.
40:21
SPEAKER_01: And she didn't know for like a year and our husbands worked together.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: And I had to have my husband prompt her husband to be like, babe, isn't this weird?
40:33
SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
40:33
SPEAKER_01: buy your name and some asshole like me might just go redirected
40:37
SPEAKER_01: to something completely random to see how long it takes you.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no kidding.
40:41
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've actually thought about that,
40:44
SPEAKER_02: but this,
40:44
SPEAKER_02: it seems too scammy because I thought like I should just,
40:47
SPEAKER_02: to this very prominent person,
40:49
SPEAKER_02: I should buy it for them and say, hey, look, I saw your name.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: I'll happily give it to you.
40:53
SPEAKER_02: But it sounds like a scam.
40:55
SPEAKER_02: So like if I'm doing cold pitching.
40:57
SPEAKER_02: So now I just say like, you know.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: I noticed you haven't bought your name and you didn't ask,
41:02
SPEAKER_02: but you might want to do that before somebody does it for you and tries
41:05
SPEAKER_02: to charge you a lot of money for it.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: And then similarly,
41:09
SPEAKER_02: for people that are writing books,
41:13
SPEAKER_02: as soon as you know the confirmed title, buy that domain as well.
41:17
SPEAKER_02: So that's like, those are my two pieces of advice.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: Even if you have working titles, buy the domain.
41:22
SPEAKER_02: There's like 10 bucks or 20 bucks a year.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really not expensive.
41:27
SPEAKER_02: And if you can't buy the domain...
41:29
SPEAKER_00: That might not be your book title.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing I do whenever I have like a book idea.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, did anyone buy this?
41:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: Damn it.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: I need to go buy
41:38
SPEAKER_02: a domain right after I finish this.
41:39
SPEAKER_02: Yes, you do, Meg.
41:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, every novel that I write, I'm not worried about.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: But like the nonfiction books, I think I need to lock in the domain.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that.
41:48
SPEAKER_01: Has anyone bought I'll Twerk No Play?
41:51
SPEAKER_01: And believe it or not, I think altergnoplay.com is still available.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: But now that we've said that,
41:55
SPEAKER_01: and I told this story about how freaking ridiculous I am with buying domains out
42:00
SPEAKER_01: of spite, I probably should go buy all
42:02
SPEAKER_00: of my novels as well.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I got offered to buy deeperbusiness.com for $1,500 and also deeperwealth.com.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like...
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Tempting, but no.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: I thankfully rebranded from deeper business to deeper foundations.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: But Eleanor,
42:16
SPEAKER_00: if they want to,
42:18
SPEAKER_00: if someone's like,
42:18
SPEAKER_00: I want an expert to help you with my digital strategy and also make sure my website,
42:23
SPEAKER_00: you know, does the job, how can they get a hold of you?
42:28
SPEAKER_02: They can find me at my website.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: Surprise!
42:31
SPEAKER_02: Which is just my name, Eleanor Meyerhofer, E-L-E-A-N-O-R-M-A-Y-R-H-O-F-E-R.com.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: And, uh,
42:39
SPEAKER_02: One of the things knocking around in my head is eventually,
42:42
SPEAKER_02: probably next year,
42:42
SPEAKER_02: I need to spin that out into a personal brand and rebrand as a company.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: But that's me for now.
42:47
SPEAKER_02: And you'll find everything you need there.
42:49
SPEAKER_02: I'm also probably the platform I'm most active on for business is LinkedIn.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: Yay.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Well, we'll give you a break from talking for a little bit and we'll move
43:00
SPEAKER_00: into what's Aggressively Human in our world right now.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: So Meg, I'll open it up for you first.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: So we're recording this about a month before release or a little bit more than that.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's still summer here.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: And I just took my older son, he's rising into sixth grade, to his first music festival.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: So the kid's a guitar player.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: He's a drummer in like the band, but he's trying to learn like the drum kit.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: And so he's been to live shows before,
43:27
SPEAKER_01: but this was his first time going to like a festival where there are Yeah.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know,
43:56
SPEAKER_01: we dropped my little one because he wouldn't have stayed up that late
44:00
SPEAKER_01: at my mom's house for a sleepover.
44:01
SPEAKER_01: And then we walked up to the music festival and we got our bracelets
44:04
SPEAKER_01: and he was like able to get pretty close to it and like see the real musicians.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: But also a piece of the puzzle here is that he's in a rock band himself.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: And the Monday before the show, At the place where he's learning to play rock music.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: A bunch of the bands got together and they were rehearsing on the main stage at his studio.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: And so we were able to see the musicians rehearsing before their performance.
44:34
SPEAKER_01: And so he got really excited.
44:35
SPEAKER_01: He was like, I know that one.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: She's a teacher at Rockstar Academy where he goes.
44:41
SPEAKER_01: And I had a conversation with one of the backup singers.
44:46
SPEAKER_01: I was like, what are you guys rehearsing for?
44:48
SPEAKER_01: And she was like,
44:49
SPEAKER_01: Telling me about her band and, oh,
44:51
SPEAKER_01: well, you know, I only do this part time because I'm actually an English teacher.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, you know, where do you teach?
44:57
SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like, she said something about like reading fiction.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, I'm actually writing a book right now while you're performing.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: Like she like got my name out and started putting my books on Goodreads.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: Like it was just such a really nice connection of.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: Musicians hanging out in a room and like the adults respecting the work that
45:16
SPEAKER_01: the kids were doing and being like, oh, we've played all the same stages.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: And then taking my kid to see the musicians that he knew on a stage,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: including his orthodontist who is in one of the bands that played the festival.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: So it just like made music really like real and visceral.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: In a way that I don't think he'd recognize that like,
45:39
SPEAKER_01: oh, there are adults who can have jobs and also just do this for fun.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: And that was such a cool human experience, you know?
45:48
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, Baby's First Music Festival, put the sticker on the baby book.
45:53
SPEAKER_02: Eleanor, what about you?
45:55
SPEAKER_02: Since I am in L.A.
45:57
SPEAKER_02: and people of a certain generation will remember the missing person song,
46:01
SPEAKER_02: Nobody Walks in L.A., Um, so I,
46:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm not an environmental, I mean, sure,
46:08
SPEAKER_02: like I care about the environment and all that,
46:10
SPEAKER_02: but I, growing up here, you're kind of oppressed by needing to drive everywhere.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: And since I've lived in Germany so long,
46:17
SPEAKER_02: I really had the total transformation of just loving bikes
46:20
SPEAKER_02: and public transportation.
46:21
SPEAKER_02: And it makes me feel free.
46:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, that's why I like not having a car.
46:25
SPEAKER_02: So every time I come to LA, I'm like, I'm going to do LA without a car.
46:29
SPEAKER_02: Um, And my husband and my daughter already went back home.
46:31
SPEAKER_02: So I'm here without a rental car and I've been taking public transportation
46:35
SPEAKER_02: where people are Aggressively Human.
46:39
SPEAKER_02: And actually, it's been fine.
46:41
SPEAKER_02: It's been great.
46:42
SPEAKER_02: But it is it is an experience.
46:44
SPEAKER_02: The best way to see any place in the world is to take public transportation, I think.
46:48
SPEAKER_02: And I've been doing that.
46:50
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to do it again today.
46:52
SPEAKER_02: And L.A. is so huge.
46:54
SPEAKER_02: It takes, you know, well over an hour, usually close to two to get across town.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: And then yesterday I walked home.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: I decided, you know, I can just, it's a long walk, but I need to, you know, get my steps in.
47:06
SPEAKER_02: So I walked from Santa Monica to Venice on, on the water.
47:11
SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
47:11
SPEAKER_02: you got,
47:12
SPEAKER_02: you got to love,
47:13
SPEAKER_02: you got to love LA,
47:16
SPEAKER_02: California,
47:18
SPEAKER_02: just lots of colorful characters, people watching, just amazing, just amazing.
47:25
SPEAKER_02: It was, it was great.
47:27
SPEAKER_00: I did that walk.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: So when we were in LA this summer,
47:31
SPEAKER_00: so we took the E-Line all the way from, where are you staying in LA?
47:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm in Venice, on the border of Venice and Santa Monica.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: So we were staying in downtown LA.
47:40
SPEAKER_00: So we took the E-Line out to Santa Monica,
47:42
SPEAKER_00: walked down, took the bus from Venice back up to Santa Monica to train back in.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: But we also took the train to Beverly Hills because we took the
47:58
SPEAKER_00: We took the bus from the D line to Beverly Hills.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, we are the only people who are like going shopping in Beverly Hills on the bus.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: And we took it up to Hollywood and then took the bus for like up
48:11
SPEAKER_00: to Griff Observatory and listfully.
48:13
SPEAKER_00: So like,
48:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I, um,
48:16
SPEAKER_00: We did take,
48:16
SPEAKER_00: I did take a cab from or from downtown LA to the Arts District because you had to go
48:22
SPEAKER_00: through Skid Row to do it.
48:23
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was like, we're not
48:26
SPEAKER_02: taking a bus here.
48:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:28
SPEAKER_02: That was a smart decision.
48:29
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, that's great to hear.
48:30
SPEAKER_02: And it was, you know, always the pageant of human, human, the full, full view.
48:37
SPEAKER_02: Full tapestry.
48:38
SPEAKER_02: The whole tapestry.
48:39
SPEAKER_02: That's what I'm looking for.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: But was it was your experience generally fine?
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Generally fine.
48:43
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think I would have probably not.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: It's like one of those things where like, you know, do you take the chance of the Uber?
48:52
SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not about to like drive in LA.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't like to drive.
48:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't even like to drive in Charlotte.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: And I live here and I know how to get on and off the intersection.
49:00
SPEAKER_00: Like my driving in.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: Some of them are like, it's like, I'm like Alicia Silverstone in Clueless.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: No, no, it was Dion.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm getting on the freeway.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm getting on the freeway.
49:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, y'all remember that scene.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm like,
49:11
SPEAKER_00: so it's either,
49:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
49:12
SPEAKER_00: take my chances with the random Uber or take my chances on public transportation.
49:16
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's like, you know, I'm like, at least there's lots of people in public transit.
49:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: So, my Aggressively Human, I check my calendar.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: So, now that, you know,
49:33
SPEAKER_00: There are 75-ish new members in the membership since the price increase.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe close to 75 to 80-ish.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: Price increase.
49:42
SPEAKER_01: So this is like in a month.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: No, no, like with the price increase, like before.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: Oh, because you had done like a last time available before.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: Last time available before the price increase.
49:50
SPEAKER_00: But then like still like we've had like four or five people join since the price increase.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: Someone joined last night from hearing me on Diane's podcast.
49:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that was a really long time ago.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: But now I have 40 membership welcome calls in September because everyone's like,
50:04
SPEAKER_00: you're booked out a month.
50:05
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay,
50:06
SPEAKER_00: so I had it limited to two a day and only on like,
50:10
SPEAKER_00: you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and starting at 11.
50:13
SPEAKER_00: But I have lots of things at 11.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: So I've been like steadily opening it up like to have like three a day and open up
50:18
SPEAKER_00: to Fridays and start at 10am.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so I counted I have like And I like, I like ran out.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, did I really count up to like 35?
50:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to round up and say like, I have 40 calls.
50:28
SPEAKER_00: And then now people are like, but like, you're still booked out till October.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, there are no more.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: There are no more.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is just reality.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: This is a free onboarding call.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: You can wait a month for,
50:40
SPEAKER_01: especially,
50:41
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many of them are like,
50:42
SPEAKER_01: they purchased the year versus purchasing a month,
50:44
SPEAKER_01: but like, you're going to be here a while.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean,
50:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:48
SPEAKER_00: like it's the good thing is everyone has, um,
50:51
SPEAKER_00: And I remember people's feedback being like,
50:53
SPEAKER_00: Jessica, your intro videos are too long.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I stripped them all down, made them all shorter.
51:01
SPEAKER_00: And so people are coming in a lot more like, oh, we know what to do.
51:05
SPEAKER_00: We know what the events are.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: Your onboarding is the best we've seen.
51:08
SPEAKER_00: So if you were one of the members who provided me that feedback, thank you.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: And the person who I just had a discovery call with this morning who sold
51:16
SPEAKER_01: the hula hoops is one of the new members.
51:18
SPEAKER_01: So you'll have to figure out who it is.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: Man, so one of my former,
51:23
SPEAKER_00: he worked for me at Electrolux and he became a coach because I was his coach
51:27
SPEAKER_00: when I was like,
51:28
SPEAKER_00: I was in life coach training and I,
51:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
51:30
SPEAKER_00: and apparently one of his new like people is also in the membership
51:33
SPEAKER_00: and he won't tell me who it is.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, come on.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's a fun place to be on the internet.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: With that, we'll close out for this week.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: Remember to give us a like,
51:48
SPEAKER_00: give us a review if you like the podcast,
51:50
SPEAKER_00: check out all of our recent episodes,
51:52
SPEAKER_00: and we'll be back next week with another episode of Aggressively Human.