Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Building a National Company after prison- Justin Paperny

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Building a National Company after prison- Justin Paperny · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
Here we go. What happens when your worst
0:02
fear becomes your reality? Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy.
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Welcome to the Nightmare Success In and Out podcast, where we
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explore how to overcome your fears and nightmares and set
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yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
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topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
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survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
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sometimes sad. There's some humor, but
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hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
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help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
0:31
mind. Welcome back, nightmare,
0:35
success, in and out, listeners, we so everybody you know comes
0:40
here for, you know what happens when your worst fear becomes
0:42
your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
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overcome set yourself free? I've got a great guest here
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today who has done all that. And you you might have seen him
0:52
on TV. Justin Papperny is, he's the
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author of a couple of books called Lessons from Prison
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Ethics in Motion. He's he's been a speaker for
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Fortune 500 companies colleges and he probably seeming like he
1:08
was just recently on the news talking about Elizabeth Holmes.
1:11
He's kind of the go to guy. You know he's ABC News, NBC,
1:15
Forbes, Fox News. It's a first on the show.
1:18
I've never had anybody on. It's been interviewed by Doctor
1:20
Phil. So that that is a Gold Star
1:24
there to get interviewed by Doctor Phil.
1:26
He's been on so many other things.
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Just a quick synopsis. You know this, this was a guy
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that was making it what, you know, you went to Southern
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California University. I got to be a stockbroker.
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He's managing about, you know, over $250 million in assets.
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And the personal pressures kind of clouded his judgment.
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And he ended up serving 18 months in federal prison.
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And he now is just doing, you know, you always wonder what can
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happen when all this happens. He runs a company now that's
2:02
called White Collar Advice that helps people walk through their
2:06
nightmare of a government investigation.
2:08
And that's such a cloudy, cloudy place to be and blurry.
2:13
And he really helps put clarity to it.
2:16
And you know, there's always so much more ease and the fact of
2:21
getting to the known instead of just the unknown because your
2:24
mind can make things out to be so bad and it's usually not as
2:27
bad as your mind makes it out to be.
2:29
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Auto Plaza direct.com Tell them Brent from Nightmare Success
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sent you. Justin Paperney welcome.
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Thank you for taking time. I.
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Grateful for the opportunity. Thank you so much.
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So Justin you have been, how long have you been out 2000?
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8A Little later I was released to the halfway house May 20th,
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2009. Officially released from BOP
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custody the 16th of August 2009 and that feels different when
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you get released from that supervision.
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And I had three years of that supervision and.
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And well, yeah. So I was done with supervised
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release in 2012. Prisoners, at least I did tend
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to underestimate With that release from prison will will be
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like. So my current business partner,
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Michael Santos, he's here 26 years in prison, right?
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Meant me in prison, guided me, really put me on this path.
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I suffered from what's called like shortterm itis.
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Before my release, I was just so obsessed about what life would
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be like after prison. Last few weeks of prison were
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totally unproductive. But then you leave prison.
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In my case around 7:00 AM. Then I had to get to the halfway
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house by noon. And that's I don't want to say
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complex because at that point we've already been through so
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much. We're just conditioned to like
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whatever comes. But it's really a quasi release
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because you only got 5 hours to get there.
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You don't want to be late. And I can understand why some
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guys were like, man, I am just turning down the halfway house
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and I'm going to go straight to probation.
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And initially, once I got to the halfway house, I was like.
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Maybe I should have turned down that halfway house, too.
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I could be walking around that dusty dirt track and continuing
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to write. So no.
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I mean, at least it's never like you envisioned it in your mind.
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No, no, in that halfway house is not, you know, for me, I felt
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the same way just and I I felt like I could have done my time
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better. Because it's it's you get to
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have my halfway house in St. Louis was absolutely.
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I hear that's one of. I hear that might actually be
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the worst one in the country. And they had their, they had
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their contract taken away from him, but they couldn't get
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another halfway house up and going.
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So they gave contract back to him and and.
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It's rewarding. It's rewarding failure.
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Exactly. Exactly.
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And it's in the halfway house. You know, when it first got you
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know, in play, was supposed to help you out, you know, supposed
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to put you on your way. And this, you know, Sometimes
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they're just not. I want to go back a little bit.
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I want people to get to know you.
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What was life for you as a kid as Justin growing up?
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Every, every break in the world, man.
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So we encourage our clients to be open, to be honest, to be
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authentic. If there was someone who had
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privilege and opportunity and born with a cliched silver spoon
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and you are looking at him, my parent, my the best, greatest
5:46
parents in the world. Still the greatest parents in
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the world. If I can parent half as well as
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my parents, then I'll be a wonderful father.
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Taught me right from wrong. Gave me every opportunity.
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I was a student, athlete, baseball player, and I had
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ruthless coaches. I frequently said if YouTube
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existed, when my coaches coached me in the 80s, they'd all be
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fired because they were so difficult and so ruthless.
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But they were great, effective coaches, but they held me
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accountable if I was late for practice.
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I didn't. I didn't play, always competing,
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and since I was about 8, baseball felt like a.
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Full time job and that carried me through the Pony World
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Series. The Babe Ruth World Series then
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had an opportunity to play on the USC baseball team and in
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1995 we lost in the national championship of the College
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World Series. So a lot of opportunity, a lot
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of privilege, a lot of discipline.
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I worked hard and I would argue until I went into the brokerage
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world, I was, I tended, I've always, I tended to behave and
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act like the people that I was around.
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So if I was around, my teammates who were?
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Honest and character and commitment.
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I was that way in the brokerage world.
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I was around some guys that were kind of shady.
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I'm like, hey, maybe that's that's the way to go.
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I share this funny. I don't know if it's funny.
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When I was in high school, I would take the AP classes and
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I'd be at the top. I'd pass all the AP classes, but
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if I was in the lowest class, I'd kind of perform at that
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level. And my, the principal told my
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parents. Your son tends to perform around
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the group. We got to put him in the highest
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group because he does just as well.
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I could also descend, apparently to the bottom of the group as
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well. So that's a tendency I had to
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work on, and I did in prison. Do you think that playing
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sports, having the discipline and accountability helped you
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get through some of the things you had to go through?
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Yes, it articulated and Lessons from prison, A book nobody needs
7:26
to buy. It's free At white
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collaradvice.com Don't don't write it, Don't buy it.
7:30
In the first few pages I expressed how.
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Playing baseball conditioned me for a life of discipline and
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commitment and and work ethic and putting putting team first.
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If I had an over 4 game, that was okay.
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As long as the team won't on, there's a runner on 2nd with no
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outs. I can assure you I'm hitting the
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ground ball to the right side and getting the runner over.
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I was a very good teammate and I believed in in winning and
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commitment and discipline and a lot of that went by the wayside
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when I became a stockbroker. But baseball really put me on a
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path. It helped it put me on a path.
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For what should have been a law abiding really contributing
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money. So you're you're you're really
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saying that you were on the right path.
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You got around in the stockbroker world, you started
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having success, but the people that you're around, like you
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said when you were in school, you you begin to kind of meld
8:19
into that. I felt like everyone was out for
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themselves. There was no unlike.
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When I was a baseball player, if I worked hard and performed, I
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would play more. I would make the travel team to
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Stanford or Arizona State in the brokerage industry.
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I felt like my hard work and efforts weren't appreciated,
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applauded. I didn't feel as they viewed me
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as a contributing, contributing member of the team.
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And I saw so many partnerships fail over money and I diverse to
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a partnership for a very long time because of money.
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And I felt like the senior brokers were leveraging up the
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work of the junior brokers and I said that's not going to be me.
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Then I had an opportunity at 26 to go to Bear Stearns, and at
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the time I was the youngest broker they had hired.
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But to go to Bear, because it was really a niche boutique
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firm, kind of like a Goldman Sachs or just beneath it, I had
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to agree to join a partnership, even though I knew partnerships
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fail. I didn't want it, but I wanted
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to be a Bear at 26. And it was through that
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partnership that I began to make really bad choices and put me on
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a path where years later, I would eventually plead guilty to
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a fraud. But it was really set up and bad
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decisions I made. While working with my senior
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partner at UBS and then Bear Stearns in UBS.
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So can you help walk us through that as that as that came up on
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you, did you know when things were happening and you were
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doing things where you, you know your judgment through pressures
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was pushing you in a direction that you did, you know that
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there was an investigation going on?
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Did you have any idea about it or was it just boom one day?
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So. When I went to UBS in 2001, we
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had we received a big bonus to move our book from Bear to UBS,
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and they were expecting us to produce and perform, and for
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mere reasons. Our production had fallen a bit
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and we saw brokers beginning to get let go, ostensibly for
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ethical violations. But that was nonsense.
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They weren't producing. So I even saw then there's kind
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of a. 2 Tiered way of treating brokers.
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If you perform, you're treated one way.
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If you don't perform, you're treated another way.
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So kind of to salvage the day or buy us some time, we brought in
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a hedge fund client who only had $6,000,000 under management, but
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it was an options hedge fund. In other words, it could
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generate as much as $100,000 a month in production every month,
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which is truly significant, especially for one client.
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Problems followed when he he brought in the six million and
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lost it. He raised another six million
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and lost it. So our intellect and experience
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told us. Clearly he's only raising money
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by lying to people because no rational investor would give
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their money to someone who's down 100% in their hedge funds.
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So that was like the initial telltale sign.
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But we kind of turned the other way as the judge would later
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save for money because we like the commissions and we reasoned
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we're not managing the money. The hedge fund managers, we're
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just executing the trades on an unsolicited basis.
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So even though we knew he was making risk representations to
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raise money, we weren't there. We can't couldn't confirm what
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he said, but we knew he was lying.
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And we kind of we create, I shouldn't say kind of we schemed
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with management at UBS to try to protect ourselves from any
11:18
fallout to ensure the gravy train of commissions would
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continue and then eventually all came crashing down in December
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2004 when investors in my clients hedge fund like.
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They wanted their money and we learned then that money was
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coming in. He would trade lose.
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If somebody wanted their money back, he would send it to them.
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And kind of like a classic Ponzi.
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Sure. So it was a matter of time
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before investors began to reach out and that's when the
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investigation began, December of O4.
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So you would have been a pretty young man at that time?
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Yes, I was 2829. I was 28 years old.
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It's a lot to think about it. 2829 years old.
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I didn't even know how to process or think about it.
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The only downside, perhaps, that being raised so well with
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opportunity and know adversity is when adversity struck, I did
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know how to respond. Right.
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So there's so many fine men with whom I served time, so many of
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our clients of white collar advice who have endured struggle
12:12
throughout the loss of a parent, a sibling, substance abuse
12:14
issues, alcohol issues. And they've overcome it and
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they've worked or raised with nothing and just working their
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ass off to build and grow. That's inspiring.
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So many of them respond favorably because they're like,
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hey, this is another adversity. I've been through it before.
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I'm going to learn from that. In my case, I'd never overcome
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any adversity except, oh, I didn't make the travel trip to
12:34
Stanford this weekend. Big deal, right?
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So I didn't know how to respond other than to lie and to faint.
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Ignorance. Cover up, Blame.
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Excuse. That was a dream for a lawyer
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because I would scratch a check, waste money and time, never gave
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them a chance to help me effectively.
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So I was initially a terrible defendant because I didn't know
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how to help others and I certainly didn't know how to
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help myself. It's interesting because you
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know one of the things that you know, you see it on the movies,
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you see it you know everywhere that you you got to tell the you
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got to tell the attorney the truth so he can he can help you
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and and get you through whatever you're going through.
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Well, well, part of the problem with that is so many defendants
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don't even know the truth. So it's very easy to tell me the
13:16
truth. But if the truth is distorted,
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or they're full of rationalizations or lies, or I
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didn't have bad intentions, it wasn't me.
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I was swept into this. We want people to perceive us.
13:27
Positively and they We don't want to be perceived as
13:30
criminal. That's a blow to our character
13:32
and self esteem. Hello, I'm a criminal.
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I mean who wants that? So we tend to, we sort of cloak
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the truth and in so doing we don't give the lawyer a chance
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to really help us. So one of the first things our
13:44
team does at White Collar Advice, when we begin working
13:46
with someone, we do a very cathartic, lengthy interview
13:51
going back to the day they were born until today, and we fill it
13:54
in. But we say to them, you've got
13:55
to be authentic. You've got to purge.
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You've got to share the worst, most sickening details.
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Only then can you begin to kind of air it out.
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How'd you get here? And then we can put you on a
14:05
path to do better. No cliches or platitudes.
14:08
It really requires introspection.
14:10
Well, I think that's one of the big things that you do, Justin,
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is that a lot of people, most people do not know how important
14:19
that presentencing report is. And defense attorneys, it's not
14:24
even part of the game. You know that their, their job
14:27
is to get you to a hopefully reasonable plea agreement, and
14:33
then they're done. They don't know anything about
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prison. They really don't know the
14:36
importance of the presentencing report.
14:38
And so you're on your own, unless you know someone who
14:41
knows how important that is, because that presidency report
14:44
follows you all the way through your case managers, your
14:48
probation, everything that happens.
14:53
You've you talked and I was watching a little bit of your
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Dr. Phil interview with what's important with that Presensing
15:00
report. Well, even First off, the
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presense report is more important than ever because of
15:05
the First step act. In the presense report you can
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demonstrate why you're extraordinary and compelling and
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how you're going to continue to be extraordinary and compelling,
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which is something you can share with the case manager, a judge
15:16
down the road. And the first thing your
15:18
probation officer is trained to do is look at your probation
15:20
report, which could have happened years earlier.
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We do get some resistance from lawyers who devalue the value of
15:26
the pre sentence report and they just don't seem to understand
15:29
this probation officer is going to make a recommendation to a
15:31
federal judge on how long our client should serve in prison.
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For that reason doesn't make sense to influence this person
15:37
as positively as possible. We do that in part to the very
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personal. Very powerful personal
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narrative. Get the narrative into the
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report, the judge concede in the report you've been sent to
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become a person, right? Yeah, the the first thing the
15:50
judge typically asked, it's sensing it.
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Have you read the presentence report?
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Yes. Do you understand it?
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Did you review with your lawyer? Yes.
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Some judges value the presentence report more than the
15:58
government or the defense attorneys sentencing position.
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For that reason, the narrative should be in the report and you
16:04
should be prepared to respond. Honestly, with respect to the
16:07
goal of the report, it's not magic.
16:09
It should be honest. If there are victims, you need
16:11
to express how you identify with victims, share details about
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your life, both good and bad, as Judge Pearson told me on stage
16:18
when we presented it is. The job of the defendant in the
16:22
presentence interview to express or share every fracture of their
16:25
life, she then said. Even a multimillionaire, A
16:27
billionaire that's in my courtroom, there's been some
16:29
fracture that led them here. I need to know the fracture from
16:33
the defendant. If not, I'm going to default to
16:34
the government who has an agenda, to the defense attorney
16:37
who has an agenda, namely unpaid, to say why my client
16:39
shouldn't go to prison. So our work is about self
16:42
advocacy, helping the defendant express through their own words
16:46
who they are, what they've learned, where they're going.
16:48
Why, They will never return to another courtroom now through
16:51
happy talk, but with a plan and those that do it tend to get
16:55
better outcomes. It's a great point.
16:57
Let's go back to you. On that moment you come down,
17:01
you feel you, you, you know the investigations happened.
17:06
You know at a moment in time you have to make a decision.
17:09
Am I going to be the 97% that's indicted and and you plea or am
17:13
I going to get a trial? What?
17:14
What went through your mind in that time period?
17:18
Well, it was all it was sickening and stunning to to
17:21
hear my lawyer express to me that they feel that I was
17:26
complicit and culpable in this fraud.
17:28
And I just couldn't imagine it as I didn't.
17:32
I was all the rationalist. I didn't do the trading.
17:34
It was unsolicited. And what made matters worse was
17:36
I lied to the interview. When they the FBI, when they
17:39
interviewed me, I wasn't prepared for the interview.
17:42
They asked me questions. I lied.
17:44
They had evidence that clearly contradicted what I had said.
17:48
And I'm pretty good friends with Paul Bertram, the FBI agent that
17:50
arrested me. He's the one that invited me to
17:52
the FBI Academy to speak in March of 11.
17:55
And he told the agents that had I told the truth when they
17:57
questioned me, there's a chance they wouldn't have referred me
17:59
to David Willingham, the US Attorney who's now a defense
18:01
attorney. There's a chance they wouldn't
18:03
refer me for prosecution. So the take away for defendants
18:06
is as human beings, we make mistakes.
18:09
You've made, have made a mistake that got you entrenched in the
18:11
sickening system. But what do you do after that?
18:14
You own it. You accept responsibility.
18:16
Or do you act like a fool, like me, and lie and make things
18:19
worse? So my postdefense conduct wasn't
18:22
wasn't good, which can tell them to think I'm a really bad guy.
18:26
Not only did I do it, I'm covering up and not accepting
18:28
responsibility. So again, I responded poorly.
18:31
And it wasn't until I hired new lawyers who helped me
18:35
understand. You're looking at five years in
18:37
prison. Here's why you'll probably get
18:39
five years in prison. Here's the consequence of lying
18:41
to the government. Here's the.
18:43
Consequence of playing a lot of golf and selling real estate,
18:45
thinking this is behind you. I learned my codefendant, who is
18:48
more culpable, was cooperating. It's like, wait a second, He's
18:52
more culpable. But because he's cooperating,
18:55
he's going to get two years and I'm going to get 5.
18:57
And I begin to learn kind of the twisted, wretched nature of this
19:01
system. It's not about who did it or who
19:03
got swept into it, but accepting responsibility.
19:05
And they favor cooperators. And I don't blame him.
19:08
He had a wife and four kids. He did the smart thing.
19:11
I was the fool that lied. So that initial response is
19:14
crucial that you'd be stunned. Well, you're not stunned.
19:17
You're in the same business. How many think they're different
19:20
or special or how many think all the investigations just
19:24
beginning? Like, no, no, no.
19:26
The FBI told me, and I agree. When they show over to your
19:29
front door and they're in the bottom of the eighth inning, the
19:30
question is how do you respond? But defendants think it's just
19:33
starting. We have time.
19:34
They know everything. The question is what do you do?
19:38
They they they come to you last. They've they've already done all
19:42
their homework a lot. Of well said.
19:44
That's a lot of people don't realize that, but that's that's
19:46
the way that it works. And also someone I don't want to
19:49
bash lawyers. Here.
19:50
We work with some of the best law firms in America, Quinn
19:52
Emanuel, Per who we Latham and Walkins.
19:55
We're grateful for the referrals in the relationship, but it
19:57
doesn't change that. Every now and again, a new
20:00
client or someone will call and say, my lawyer told me to get
20:03
off the Internet, that I just got indicted and it's too early
20:05
to prepare and just relax. It's like well.
20:08
It wasn't too early for them to indict you if you to hire a
20:10
lawyer for them to issue a Department of Justice press
20:12
release. Your bank just fired you.
20:14
You lost your job. The Doj's preparing for trial
20:18
doesn't seem too early to me. You make your own decision.
20:21
Yeah. So you finally get to
20:25
sentencing. Do you know kind of what you're
20:28
looking at? I had a big break leading up to
20:31
sentencing because my Co defendant got indicted on new
20:34
charges so they ripped up his plea and much of what he said
20:38
against me they couldn't use. Much of it was also fabricated
20:41
and the government gave me a second chance of veracity.
20:44
Mainly I worked with the Securities and Exchange
20:45
Commission to help them understand how this fraud sort
20:47
of happened so there could be more regulatory changes moving
20:49
forward. As a result of that, they found
20:52
that UBS was culpable. Indeed they were.
20:54
So UBS wrote a check to the victims for about $9,000,000 to
20:58
make them whole. So that dramatically reduced my
21:02
number. The guidelines still the same.
21:05
When everyone's been paid back, they hit me with $500,000 in
21:08
restitution. Where I where they came up with
21:10
that number, I have no idea. I contributed 100,000 at my
21:13
sentencing hearing. And because my case went on for
21:15
three years, and during that time I eventually got it
21:18
together, I was working, building a new record, had very
21:21
good character reference letters, had done some volunteer
21:24
work. I had been able to show nothing
21:26
more important than work as a defendant building a new record
21:29
as a law abiding citizen. That really persuaded the judge
21:31
that I was making good changes. So the government asked for 24
21:35
months, and Judge Steven Wilson gave me 18 months in federal
21:38
prison. So you get that sentence, and
21:44
I'm assuming you voluntarily surrendered.
21:47
I was given 60 days to self surrender detached federal
21:50
prison camp, which is now closed.
21:53
It's a it's a none. It's a you know, I voluntarily
21:56
surrendered. Also, it's a what was going
21:58
through your mind as you're standing there walking into?
22:02
Your new unknown World. Well, in a sick way.
22:07
I was kind of excited to get there because at least the clock
22:09
would begin to. Go exactly right, because while
22:12
you're waiting for so long, you don't get credit for time
22:14
served. So I was.
22:15
Kind of excited. I kind of feel like, don't you,
22:17
Justin, that that might be some of the worst time.
22:20
That time period between the time your sentence, the time you
22:22
get that that letter in the mail to tell you where you're going
22:24
and then then that time that you have just to know there's
22:28
nothing you can do about it. You're going, it's it's the
22:31
worst time. Because even before sentencing,
22:33
even though like you know you're going to prison, you still hold
22:37
out hope and maybe you'll get probation.
22:39
But then once you're sentenced and you have time to go in, I
22:42
can understand why some guys even who get remanded at
22:44
sentencing, well initially hate it.
22:45
They're glad at least they start to get credit for time and
22:48
custody. So the time before I went in,
22:50
what was difficult, but it did give me.
22:51
I was fortunate I was 29 or no by then.
22:54
I was 3032. I wasn't married.
22:56
I didn't have children. I still had some resources.
22:59
I was able to rent out my home. And I began to kind of focus,
23:02
like on the next phase. I put on about 30 pounds while
23:04
fighting my case. And I said, OK, I'm going to get
23:06
there. I'm going to exercise.
23:08
I did. I became a long distance runner.
23:09
I'm going to write and just recalibrate.
23:11
And I had help because of Michael Santos, my partner who
23:14
mentored and guided me every step of the way.
23:17
But back to that first day, I remember thinking to myself,
23:20
what the hell is wrong with so many of these dudes?
23:22
What are they smiling about? Right?
23:24
Like, you hit the compound, you're freaked out at your first
23:27
day in jail, and I'm like, these dudes are walking the truck.
23:29
What are they smiling at about? This guy's gardening over here.
23:32
Looks like he's having the time of his life.
23:34
This guy's shopping in the commissary and eating ice cream.
23:36
That's weird. So you know, I'm, I felt weird.
23:39
What are these guys smiling about there in prison?
23:41
Then of course a few weeks later on that and by walking the track
23:44
and smiling. So that first day it was a
23:46
surprise, especially how self-directed it was.
23:49
Your recollection may be the same.
23:51
They just sort of throw you out into the compound.
23:53
They go to laundry Okay, that's your dorm like okay.
23:58
And it's like self-paced. Excuse me, self-directed.
24:01
You just sort of figure it out out.
24:03
Although someone did say to me make sure you're back here in
24:06
time for standing count. I'm like, what's that?
24:08
And it was my first census count at 4:00 PM.
24:11
So the first day goes by quickly.
24:13
It's it's emotional, it's fast. What I learned and I talked
24:17
about this with the Elizabeth Holmes case.
24:19
In every case, it's not so much the first day, it's three weeks,
24:23
three months, six months in, when reality hits you like, I'm
24:25
going to be here for a while, I'm here, and what am I doing
24:28
with my time? But I think what's interesting,
24:31
if you, if you kind of dig into your book, you know that you,
24:35
you created a life for yourself, created goals and you weren't
24:40
going to waste time. You know, there there's only two
24:43
ways and two prisoners in that do their time.
24:45
There's those that give up and they almost kind of roll into a
24:49
fetal position, and there's those that are trying to make it
24:51
work. And you were the guy that tried
24:55
to make it work and you kind of share because I know your
24:57
Michael Santos story was interesting because you were
25:00
kind of when you guys first talked, we're a little bit
25:05
intimidated by him because everybody else was talking to
25:08
that guy has a 45 year sentence. He's been there a long time.
25:11
He's. And then he became your mentor.
25:14
Well, yes. So look, it's everyone knew who
25:17
Michael Santos was. He was a prolific famous
25:19
prisoner because he had written so much on the Internet and his
25:22
accomplishments, we're second to none.
25:24
Undergraduate master's degree. Now, programs that he creates
25:27
are in the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
25:29
They're approved. First step back to programs.
25:31
Every prison in California uses our work.
25:34
Hundreds of thousands of prisoners benefit.
25:36
Imagine a guy served 26 years in prison.
25:39
The BOP is endorsing our work, implementing our work.
25:42
That's how transincredible formative he is.
25:44
But I will tell you I wasted some time.
25:46
When I got to prison, all I fixated on exercise day and
25:50
night, and I was really no different from someone who
25:51
watched TV all day. I was just channeling it through
25:54
exercise. And several months into my
25:56
federal prison sentence, Michael asked me sit on a scale of 1 to
25:59
10, how would you rate your preparations for going home?
26:02
And I had to be honest, other than exercise, I was kind of
26:05
wasting my time. Then he helped me understand.
26:07
You probably saw this too, like some guy's nervous and kind of
26:09
scared to go home because it's like, well, what awaits me on
26:12
the other side? Like I'm not ready.
26:15
A solely reputation. My career's in the toilet.
26:17
I have no money. Like maybe I will just.
26:19
Down the halfway guys, it would actually get close to the door
26:21
that would catch another charge because they were afraid to get
26:24
out to the freedom for for sure. So that was my aha moment a few
26:28
months into the prison term when Michael helped me understand how
26:30
the choices that I was making we're going to translate to life
26:33
after prison. So from there I really ramped it
26:36
up. No more 6 hour exercise days.
26:38
It was a couple of hours and then alongside Michael we began
26:41
to write a blog, which did got got a lot of traction in prison
26:46
handwriting. His blog, with Michael's help
26:48
was getting like hundreds of letters a month.
26:51
And then based on the success of the blog, we then wrote Lessons
26:54
from Prison, which is a book that I was published, self
26:56
published about a week before I was released from prison.
26:59
So I I transitioned and began waking at 3:00 and 4:00 o'clock
27:04
in the morning. And time began to go too fast.
27:07
And I was thinking like, I need more time to get this done.
27:09
And I've regretted wasting several months.
27:11
So a big message we convey to people is, I know you don't want
27:14
to be in prison. I'm not dumb.
27:15
But if you're going to be there, make the most of it, because
27:18
eventually this experience is ending before we get a video on
27:21
the I filmed the YouTube short that I'll post where it's like
27:24
our life inside is a little blip.
27:26
I know you don't want to be there.
27:27
It's a little blip. What happens for most people if
27:29
they're not ready to come home? That little time inside kind of
27:32
amounts to a life sentence, Just a continuation of struggle.
27:35
And I put my family through enough, man, I wasn't.
27:39
I wasn't going to do it. No, Moss.
27:41
I was done. And that's it's interesting that
27:44
you because one of the things that I've.
27:47
I was thinking when I was standing at the gates level
27:49
with, I thought, well, okay, I'm going to get beaten up.
27:51
I could get raped and maybe stabbed and.
27:55
And the one thing that I found that was the biggest surprise to
27:59
me walking into prison as how much help and good people there
28:03
were to get me through. And I was, you know, I was just
28:06
talking to a guy the other day that's getting ready to go into
28:08
prison and he had been told by someone that, you know, you've
28:11
got to stay yourself, nobody's going to help you.
28:13
And that's not really true. People, because you're entering
28:17
their world, unless you're cocky and arrogant and and you've
28:20
lived your life that way, you will get in trouble.
28:23
You will, you know, possibly get in fights.
28:25
But if you are a respectful person and you're just trying to
28:29
get through, you're going to find a lot of help in there.
28:32
And that was one of the biggest surprises to me.
28:34
And I think it's very telling that you and Michael Santos, he
28:38
must have seen something in you Justin and and then.
28:43
To for him to mentor you and and really give you the type of
28:46
advice that you really needed was is you got to start thinking
28:49
about because it's so easy to unplug in prison because in in a
28:55
certain amount of time you don't have to worry about whatever's
28:59
going on. If you're if if you don't have a
29:01
lot going on you can just unplug it and you know I I had a little
29:06
bit different deal because my wife came every weekend and and
29:09
so I kind of sat on the fence of the outside and the inside.
29:12
But a lot of guys truly unplugged from that.
29:15
But that was incredible advice from Michael to say, hey, what
29:18
are you doing? Well, that that's right.
29:21
And I'll tell you he helped everyone.
29:23
He taught a phenomenal class called Entrepreneurial Compass
29:25
that he taught in the garage. He helped everyone who was
29:28
willing to help them so. She wanted to help.
29:31
Yeah. In our case, you know, my my mom
29:34
was my biggest advocate, so she would, I think she wrote him
29:37
before I even went to prison. My son's coming.
29:39
Be on the lookout for him. She, he would give her a little
29:42
hug or say, Justin's doing okay and visitation.
29:47
She was an erotic Jewish mother, you know.
29:49
And I think he sensed that I wanted to do better, but I
29:52
needed help and I wasn't afraid to ask for help, right?
29:55
I I he saw that I was trying to to do good things and make the
29:59
good use of my time. I did my job.
30:01
I didn't complain. I didn't have many friends.
30:04
As an introvert, I kept to myself, but I knew immediately
30:06
that I could learn from him. And my God, did I learn from
30:09
him. Everything from perspective and
30:11
recognizing that people have it such worse and helped me
30:14
understand how so many fine men there, as you saw, had endured
30:18
nothing but struggle and trauma throughout their life, yet they
30:20
find the meaning in in the blue sunset.
30:22
They're grateful if they could see their family every four or
30:25
six months. So I found that very inspiring
30:28
and hopeful, and it frankly helped me get through that term.
30:33
And I I credit him for educating me and awakening me.
30:37
So. When you got close to the door
30:40
of getting out to your freedom, you kind of had a plan of of
30:43
where and what you were wanting to do.
30:45
That the book, My work evolved in prison based on what we were
30:49
learning. The blog was transformative for
30:51
me because some universities came across it.
30:55
For example, DePaul University in Chicago, their business class
30:58
came across the blog I was writing about.
31:00
This very cliche term in accounting called the fraud,
31:02
trying pressure, rationalization and opportunity.
31:05
And the business class wrote me and said, would you answer some
31:08
of our questions. So I did it in a blog and based
31:10
on that success, the university got permission to come and film
31:13
me at the prison for a movie. They eventually did that.
31:16
I posted to my YouTube channel. They actually filmed you in the
31:19
federal prison? Yeah.
31:21
There's a video on my YouTube. Yeah, there's a video.
31:24
I know the warden gave permission.
31:25
There's a video on my YouTube channel.
31:26
You'll See me in Federal Prison in 2009 getting interviewed by
31:30
DePaul. So I was writing about ethics
31:32
and white collar crime, the consequences of cheating, and
31:34
then I'd write about prison consulting, preparation,
31:37
planning. So like, one day was an ethics
31:38
blog, the next day was a prison blog, back and forth.
31:41
So I was building this library or catalog that enabled me, when
31:44
I came home, to use my assets like a book.
31:47
So I would cold call or cold walk into a professor's office.
31:51
Really. Initially, it wasn't prison
31:53
consulting or crisis management. It was public speaking how I
31:55
sustained myself. Some consulting.
31:59
But you know when you come home from prison, you're taking
32:00
anything Just sure. Exactly.
32:01
You just want somebody to believe in you and take a job.
32:05
So I would, yeah. So I would give the book to
32:07
professors and ask if I could have an hour of their class to
32:10
speak about ethics and white collar crime.
32:12
And you'd be surprised how many professors are willing to give
32:15
you an hour. And based on that success, I
32:17
began to get more invitations. I'd asked for money.
32:19
They gave it. So for years it was speaking and
32:23
the consulting. Speaking in the consulting.
32:25
And then around 2013, I grew tired of the travel, continuing
32:28
to share my story. I've been all over the country,
32:31
hundreds of business schools, tons of businesses, law
32:33
enforcement, many events with the FBI.
32:36
And I wasn't. Sure.
32:37
I want to talk about that though, Justin, because I
32:39
noticed that on your website with the FBI and the Justice
32:43
Department, What did you go and speak and how did that all
32:46
evolve? And what was your message?
32:50
Paul Bertrand, now retired FBI agent who worked my case, was
32:53
reading my blog in prison, and he loved it.
32:56
He would share it. He appreciated I was accepting
32:58
responsibility, never complaining, sharing lessons
33:00
learned, sharing regrets about how I wish I had prepared.
33:04
Yeah. So even from prison, if you just
33:06
got indicted, if you were in trouble, this is what I did, do
33:08
it differently. So I'm really, I was trying to
33:09
help people. Sure.
33:11
He appreciated that. He reached out, came across, I
33:14
think a lecture I had done at USC, my alma mater, and he said
33:17
you're a pretty good presenter and speaker.
33:18
I want to bring you out to enrichment night at the Academy
33:22
and we decided that my letter was a 2 hour presentation.
33:25
The discussion was a denial on the white collar offender, the
33:29
consequences of cheating and covering up and not accepting
33:32
responsibility. How to work well with a lawyer
33:35
with hopes that FBI agents who are investigating fraud can do
33:37
their job better because they're intimidating when they walk into
33:40
our home with their jackets in the house.
33:43
So helping them understand how to to get the truth out of the
33:46
defendants, how we perceive them and vice versa.
33:49
But it was really helping them understand why a defendant who
33:52
knows right from wrong would continue to make bad choices.
33:55
Did. And that investigation was well
33:57
received and. I got to ask you though, Justin,
33:59
what did that feel like? You know, did it feel like just
34:02
full circle, you know, a full spectrum of your life had
34:07
evolved, that you're back speaking to the people that you
34:11
had? Misrepresented some things too
34:14
when you were talking to him and now you're back telling them how
34:17
and why and what? Well, it was a wonderful day and
34:21
just before I went to speak, I received a very, very nice
34:23
letter from from Frank Abigail. The character will catch me if
34:26
you can. He had done some events at the
34:28
FBI. He said, I heard you're going.
34:30
I wish you well. Remember this about you and your
34:33
family making amends. People may cast you aside.
34:36
But your friends and family will always love and support you.
34:38
And I wish you well. And I think someone had, Keith
34:40
Slaughter, was his name, a former FBI agent, was friends
34:43
with Frank and told him I was coming.
34:44
So it was really cool to get that letter.
34:46
I read his book in prison much different from the movie, as you
34:48
would expect. So I felt like I was in this
34:50
little circle, this people looking out for me, wanting to
34:53
help me. And when I spoke, I felt like
34:56
they treated me like an equal. They didn't say convict or
34:59
inmate or prisoner. They said this is Justin who
35:02
used this time productively and wisely, and he's now using it to
35:04
help other people and he's going to help us.
35:07
So you can dismiss the message because you think he's a
35:09
criminal, or you can learn from it and understand how he can
35:12
help you do your job better. It was a wonderful day.
35:15
It was 2 full days at the FBI. Besides the presentation, I got
35:18
a tour. I went to all of the events.
35:19
It was went to the Silence of the Lambs exhibit.
35:22
It was pretty cool. Wow.
35:23
But they treated me like an they treated me like an equal.
35:26
And I frequently say the feds are great unless they're
35:30
arresting you. Well, I get what What is your?
35:36
What is your feeling and talking about that?
35:37
You know the FBI and the feds and and the and the world that
35:41
we live in right now? Do you have an opinion about
35:45
where we are in the world? No.
35:47
I I should. I don't.
35:48
So I have a very busy career. I'm married.
35:50
I have two young children. If I'm not working, I'm with
35:54
them. God forbid I squeezing around to
35:56
golf twice a month, run and try to stay fit.
35:59
I don't follow it. As we get closer to the
36:01
election, I'll look and I have friends texting me.
36:04
We're both on liberal and the feds.
36:07
How could you have done an event with the FBI?
36:09
They're taking down the former president and other.
36:12
I don't really respond. I'm too busy.
36:14
I understand. That I'm just focused on.
36:17
I'm just focused on our work here.
36:19
I try to and I really don't cover that in.
36:21
No, and that's a little PTSD anyway for any of us to go into
36:25
that realm. Now quickly I will offer
36:30
insights on low hanging fruit. They love the low hanging fruit
36:33
and perhaps some cases that are more complex they don't want to
36:35
try or spend the resources. They may let someone walk.
36:38
So just to connect done events with the FBI doesn't mean I
36:40
don't think they occasionally overreach and Prost send people
36:44
to prison who shouldn't go to prison, including many of our
36:47
clients. And we had someone in a tax case
36:50
$3,000,000 tax evasion. Scratched a check, wrote it all,
36:53
wrote it all back. Guidelines are very low.
36:56
Did everything correctly and the judge and the FBI still gave him
37:00
six months in in federal prison. I think it's a waste of taxpayer
37:03
resources. So, but that's part of what our
37:05
team does understand the stakeholders, what is their
37:07
objective? What is your objective?
37:09
Yeah, break it down, create clarity out of it.
37:13
You know, when you how long do you think it was Justin, getting
37:16
back into society that you felt like you kind of had your got
37:20
rid of the sea legs and you were walking feeling normal?
37:23
I was in Italy on my I was in Italy on my honeymoon.
37:26
So for a couple of years I just, I didn't feel ready even when I
37:30
began to date. And even though I was having
37:33
success as a speaker and beginning to make some money, I
37:36
was raised a certain way. And you think, well, I'm not
37:37
going to get married and have kids till I could provide that
37:39
same lifestyle. That was a foolish way to think
37:41
you're you're never ready. So I delayed relationships, I
37:45
ended relationships and I just worked day and night and I never
37:49
took pleasure in the success because you always wonder as it
37:51
will it continue. Will it continue?
37:54
And it wasn't until I met my now wife Sandra, and we, you know,
37:58
we got married and then we were in just Italy and I felt like
38:01
okay, like I'm getting closer. I can enjoy this.
38:04
I can take some time off of work.
38:05
We can move towards having a family.
38:07
I don't have to worry, like, is the phone going to ring by then?
38:10
Even four or five years out of jail, we had a consistent flow
38:12
of leads based on videos, content, the book, lawyers still
38:17
getting speaking events. So I would really say it was in
38:20
September of 2013, on my honeymoon in Italy.
38:23
Well, I feel like I exhaled for the first time because for that
38:27
first four years, man, especially coming home in the
38:29
Great Recession of O nine, it was it was, it was brutal.
38:33
I didn't pay my health insurance for a couple of years.
38:35
Don't feel sorry for me. I had a better than most.
38:37
But it was a transition and a tendency I had was to still
38:41
compare myself to other people. Well, did you ever do that?
38:44
I'd look at my friends who were married, business, traveling.
38:47
A fucking friend of mine had a jet.
38:48
I'm like, what? What's happening here?
38:49
I felt further behind because of my experience.
38:52
Did you ever feel that way, like you had to play catch up?
38:55
Absolutely. Because I think, you know, when
38:57
you've had a lot, you know the. But here's one thing that I
39:00
really came down to when I was in prison having a lot, I also
39:05
found, and it's it's somewhat liberating when your world gets
39:08
down to a locker, a plastic chair in a buck bed, and you can
39:12
still survive and you can still continue to be you and still.
39:18
Believe that you can affect, change or make a difference.
39:22
That's a different feeling. It almost is like, I don't know
39:25
that I would have known that unless I would have been in that
39:28
world at that time. And and I realized to myself,
39:31
Brent, you're going to be okay. You you can survive and be okay.
39:36
And this is what you have. And you know the reason I ask
39:40
you the question about it. No matter even if you've gotten
39:43
yourself, you know, prepared to get out.
39:47
And and and I in my case I had I was lucky I had friends that
39:51
that believed in me and gave me a job and but still there was a
39:54
time period there where I was not feeling like myself.
39:59
It was just there was I don't know if I was looking over my
40:03
shoulder. I don't know what it was, but I
40:05
think it's just after a while you do finally get back into
40:08
your feel of who you are. I agree with that and thankfully
40:15
in my case, so much so many of the lessons I learned, I was
40:17
able to to implement and I'm I'm I just, I didn't waste the time.
40:23
I don't want any. You didn't waste the time.
40:25
I know you don't want to be there, but don't waste the time
40:27
because if you do it's just so much harder on the other side.
40:32
I mean guys obsessed about getting out, where are my first
40:34
step back credits? I get it.
40:36
You want to do our DAP and get the year off.
40:37
I get it. You want the shortest sentence
40:38
possible. I get it.
40:39
Of course you want the shortest. But what are you doing with that
40:43
time? Because I'll tell you, white
40:45
collar advice, we get maybe 1000 people a month opt into our
40:47
marketing campaigns. They get a book, it's organic,
40:50
whatever it is. And about 20% of those people
40:51
are home from prison. And we speak with and work with
40:54
some of them. And when we speak with them and
40:56
part of the reason they're continuing to struggle is
40:59
because of the choices they made in custody.
41:00
There's no programming. There's nothing that I there's
41:03
nothing that I could do. It was so boring.
41:06
All of these excuses, they didn't focus on what they could
41:09
control. There's no program.
41:10
You can still go to library, you can still write, you can still
41:12
do something. And a lot of men and women reach
41:16
the end of their prison term with regrets.
41:17
Like, damn, I wasted it. I might have just wasted this
41:21
time. Yeah, and reentry is tough.
41:24
Reentry is tough regardless. And you know, it's.
41:29
And you you've what is the statistic of 2/3 and three
41:33
years, 3/4 and five something like that is, is it's just an
41:38
astronomical number on on recidivism.
41:40
But you have to I think work twice as hard and that's just
41:46
what you have to do going back out into society because you are
41:50
branded as an ex felon. So you you have to have a plan
41:54
and a plan that's. Probably, you know, with a
41:57
little heavier lift because you are going to have to tell your
42:00
story. You're going to have to make
42:01
people believe that you are capable and willing and and are
42:06
going to do that second chance that that you want to earn.
42:09
And that's it takes a little extra effort, no doubt about it.
42:12
It's not easy. It's a very good point,
42:15
something I articulate. People have to embrace sort of
42:19
this underdog status, right? Underdogs.
42:22
If you go toe to toe with someone who's not a felon, you
42:24
probably lose. You have to think creatively.
42:26
And there's a great book on that subject written by Malcolm
42:29
Gladwell, David and Goliath, How underdogs win or something like
42:32
that. And you do that by owning your
42:34
story, not running from it, by accept responsibility, sharing
42:37
lessons learned, rather than pretending this didn't happen.
42:41
So by approaching that underdog status, so to speak, they
42:45
positioned me to have conversations and for people to
42:47
then say, well, I admire how you've responded to this.
42:50
You've turned lemons into lemonade, is the cliche holds.
42:53
That's what I wanted from my life.
42:55
Rather than running, excusing, blaming and just hoping this
42:59
would end. It never ends work so
43:01
conditioned to it now because we talked about it and we've been
43:04
through it, but it doesn't change.
43:05
Like the first time I told a woman out of jail, I went to
43:07
prison. I'm like, that's got to be a big
43:10
hit to take, right? She probably wasn't expecting
43:12
that. My young children will know and
43:15
now my daughter knows because she's heard me on work calls and
43:19
just I do media from home like, well, my dad went to to prison
43:23
helping her understand that. And so for me or you were so
43:26
desensitized to it. But when people hear prison,
43:28
they think prison and then it's a really big deal.
43:33
As much as we want to say Club Fed and minimize it, it was
43:36
federal prison after all and there are lasting consequences
43:39
to it and it requires planning to overcome that.
43:42
Do you think it's liberating? Cuz I find it liberating just
43:46
to, you know, when you write a book or you do a podcast or you
43:49
do the work that you're doing, there's no hiding the fact that
43:52
who you are and what your story is.
43:55
Cuz I you know, I find there's two there's two ways to go when
43:58
somebody has is living as an ex felon.
44:01
One is is to. Shield it, hide it.
44:03
Shame from it. Hopefully nobody can find out
44:07
which it was always not true, because it's so easy to find
44:11
out. Or you can stand out in front of
44:13
it and say his This is who I am, this is what I've learned, and
44:17
this is what I'm doing. Do you?
44:19
Do you feel that Justin, with what you're doing and how you've
44:22
handled your work For sure. I wanted to let my experience
44:26
through the system become one of my greatest assets like Jordan
44:29
Belfort or Frank Abagnale or Michael Santos or Piper whoever
44:33
is Orange is the New Black. Yeah.
44:36
I wanted to to use my let it become my best asset and when I
44:40
was in prison began to write my brother kind of begged me like
44:44
don't write this book. Don't write this blog.
44:46
Someone will hire you. You have a lot of skills Your
44:49
you can do something like I don't want to hand out and but
44:53
he didn't understand my position.
44:54
He didn't understand that I prepared poorly and I'm in a
44:57
position now to help people do it better.
45:00
And I sent an opportunity as an entrepreneur to create a
45:02
business and Michael and I have grown it successfully over the
45:05
last 14 years. So I want to create a win, win,
45:08
help others and help myself. But she can't do that by
45:11
pretending this didn't happen. Someone recently reached out.
45:13
They wanted to join our team. I said, well let's do a YouTube
45:16
interview together. He's like, well, no, no, no, I
45:17
don't want to go there. I said you can be faceless in
45:20
some businesses, but not this. People need to hear why you
45:22
went, what you learned, what you did.
45:25
Because you're a success story. If you can't talk about that,
45:27
there's very little value there. The only way to do that was to
45:30
be open about all the good and bad.
45:32
And I make mistakes. I continue to make mistakes and
45:35
I talk about those mistakes. Yeah, and you do you.
45:39
You've got a huge following. TikTok your your social media
45:43
world. You're very people are attracted
45:47
to your. Humility, honesty of your
45:51
experience, and I think that's why you have so many followers,
45:53
is that you talk about things as they happen.
45:56
Without it's unvarnished and there's something that attracts
46:01
people to that, that's that people.
46:02
People want to hear that. Well, I appreciate you saying
46:05
that one. One thing that I encourage all
46:07
anyone to do, especially convicted felons, is take the
46:11
ammunition that people may have against you and acknowledge if
46:15
it's true. Right.
46:16
So, like, there there are people in this industry who will say
46:19
can't believe. Properney was on Dr. Phil and a
46:21
Fox contributor. He only served for one year in a
46:23
minimum security camp. That's true.
46:26
Properney didn't serve time in enough prisons.
46:27
That's true. If the measure is how long
46:30
someone served to help you. I'm not the guy.
46:32
My partner did 26 years in 20. Five years?
46:35
Is he qualified? Right.
46:37
So you just learned to to to use that and not run from it.
46:43
And sometimes marketers try to create this world where
46:46
everything is perfect when the reality is, if we're speaking
46:48
openly and honestly, it's not perfect.
46:51
And I find a lot of value. People learned as much from the
46:53
bad as much as the good. And I'll never stop sharing
46:56
mistakes that I have made and continue to make.
46:58
That's why I think you are where you are.
47:01
I got to ask you this, Justin, because I ask everybody this.
47:03
What? Because?
47:05
You've gone through a lot. You've had successes.
47:08
Now that that you you worked hard to get, What do you think
47:13
it's your biggest take away through your whole experience?
47:18
Well, I think there's one thing there's the difference between
47:23
you say you're going to there's a difference between identifying
47:26
your values. That sounds good faith, family,
47:30
character. And it's another thing to
47:31
actually live faithfully to them.
47:34
So you and I were both in prison.
47:35
We know what it's like to say what we're going to do when we
47:37
come home. Kind of like being a college
47:39
student whose parents are paying their tuition and bills.
47:42
And then they come, they graduate.
47:44
And it's like, oh, my God, I have to do this on my own.
47:46
So it's one thing. It's one thing to say it.
47:48
It's another thing to do it right.
47:50
And and I use the analogy of a marathon.
47:52
It's very exciting to start the marathon and everyone celebrates
47:55
the end. But the real hard part and work
47:56
is in between. So that process, the daily
47:59
deliberate grind, working on days where nobody cares, nobody
48:02
calls, people hate you. When I started to do videos I
48:06
thought were great. I'm like, oh, this has three
48:07
views. Should I delete it?
48:08
No, I'm going to keep it up because someday they'll have
48:10
300,000 views and I'm going to show the growth.
48:13
So I just find like, it's that that work and doing it on days
48:18
like you would just rather do about anything else that that's
48:22
important. But living faithfully to those
48:23
values, whether it's spending time with my kids, trying not to
48:26
be a workaholic, being attentive, staying off my phone
48:30
when I'm with them, it's trying to live faithfully to my values.
48:34
And it's it's hard. But I don't want to be a
48:37
contradiction. I don't want to be an
48:39
inauthentic fraud or fool. So that requires me to wake
48:42
early and stay consistent. I love that.
48:45
That's a good place to end it, Justin.
48:50
White collar advice. If somebody wants to get to you,
48:52
that's an incredible website. There's so much information on
48:55
that website. Your books, Lessons from Prison,
49:00
Ethics and Motion. I'm sure you can get on Amazon.
49:04
They can get it for free. Well, that's right, we can.
49:06
You can click on it for free on your website, right?
49:08
Yeah, you can get the book for free.
49:09
And every Thursday at 10:00 AM Pacific, 1:00 PM Eastern, we
49:13
lead a weekly webinar. We had it.
49:16
We had it today. We had more than 100 people on
49:18
today. We bring on subject matter
49:20
experts like the former head of federal probation.
49:25
Tons of great people. I typically lead them.
49:27
Today we covered 20 ways to get a longer federal prison
49:30
sentence. Talked about financial
49:32
litigation unit and dealing with restitution.
49:34
So then it's free. You don't sell anything on these
49:37
webinars. If anyone would like to attend a
49:38
webinar, just go to whitecollaradvice.com and
49:41
register and then you'll get the e-mail link for the That's My
49:44
Webinar Wednesday. Perfect.
49:57
So yes. I'll put that in the show notes
49:46
too. Thank you.
49:48
And then following you on social media, I know actually I think
49:52
there's you are under white collar advice and your name
49:55
Justin Apperney. So white collar YouTube just go
50:00
to white collar advice. TikTok is white collar advice
50:04
and I think Instagram is just Justin Popperney got you.
50:06
But the real value is, even though I have many more
50:09
followers on TikTok, I would argue the real value because I
50:12
produce longer content. More informative content I think
50:17
is probably going to be It's going to be on the White Collar
50:20
Advice YouTube channel. OK, great.
50:22
And you know, for anybody got something out of this today,
50:27
Share the show, Share the show. And I know it's a hassle, but I
50:30
always say this if you like it. Please go to Apple or Spotify.
50:36
Leave a review, because that that just puts the show on
50:38
steroids when we have those reviews.
50:41
If you want to know anymore about me and what I'm doing,
50:44
brettcassidy.com, it's with a Ty.
50:46
It's not like Sean and David Cassidy.
50:49
If you want to check out my book Nine More Succession, get on
50:51
Barnes and Noble and Amazon and. Justin, I appreciate you being
50:58
on here. You're you're a man of wisdom,
51:00
of your experience and sharing it with others and you.
51:03
It's good stuff. Before I let you go, I think I'd
51:06
love to have you come on on our Thursday webinar where I can
51:10
interview you for a few minutes about your experience in prison
51:14
and how you began to build this brand and writing and not using
51:17
this platform as a tool to inspire and educate other
51:20
people. So we're going to take a week
51:21
off of next week's webinar with the holiday maybe two or three
51:25
Thursdays from now. You can come on, I can interview
51:27
you. And of course, I'll share your
51:28
your podcasts with everyone and encourage them to subscribe.
51:31
So I'd love to have one as a guest.
51:32
I love that, Justin. As I used to say to my people
51:36
when I was writing my emails back and forth from Leavenworth,
51:39
stay strong and I'll do the same.
51:41
Nine more success in and out.