Latest / Tribe and Tribulations With Julia Makowsky / Divorce Decoded: What They Don't Tell You About Religious Courts, Prenups, and Your Rights

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Divorce Decoded: What They Don't Tell You About Religious Courts, Prenups, and Your Rights · Tribe and Tribulations With Julia Makowsky

• 0:01
  I wanted to do this episode because I felt that until you are in a situation, you have no information.
• 0:10
  So today we're talking about divorce, whether it's in the secular court system or the religious court system.
• 0:18
  We need the information and not based on social media clicks and but based on fact.
• 0:25
  So I brought in a toan and I brought in an attorney who specialize in this field because honestly, I have no idea about any of this.
• 0:38
  The only thing I know is based on social media.
• 0:41
  And I know that's like terrible and seems like so irresponsible, but I haven't had, thank God, the need to know.
• 0:50
  But I think that it's important for all of us.
• 0:52
  So I would like to start with just what the basics are when you decide to get divorced.
• 1:01
  That is the first step.
• 1:02
  So Carly, can you take it over a little bit?
• 1:06
  Sure.
• 1:08
  So my name is Carly Krasner-Lazarson, and I am a matrimonial or divorce attorney.
• 1:15
  I practice in New York.
• 1:16
  I'm a partner at a firm here in the city in Midtown called Shemtab Moss Foreman and Beta.
• 1:23
  I've been doing this for about 15 years.
• 1:26
  And so what does it look like to get divorced?
• 1:30
  Let's say you decide tomorrow, I want out.
• 1:34
  I'm done.
• 1:35
  I can't do this anymore.
• 1:38
  I'm a religious Jew, but I don't know what my next steps are.
• 1:41
  I know that you need to go to Bayston.
• 1:43
  I know that you need to get a lawyer.
• 1:45
  But I have no information.
• 1:47
  What do I do?
• 1:48
  What's my first call?
• 1:52
  Have we already exhausted all of the pre-divorce steps?
• 1:56
  We've tried marriage counseling.
• 1:57
  We've done therapy.
• 1:58
  We've done all the things.
• 1:59
  We've talked to our rabbi.
• 2:00
  We've done all of those things.
• 2:01
  We have talked to a rabbi, let's say.
• 2:05
  But I want a divorce.
• 2:07
  I decided I want a divorce.
• 2:09
  Not me.
• 2:09
  Not me.
• 2:10
  Let's make that very clear.
• 2:12
  One might want a divorce.
• 2:14
  Um, your first step after all of what I will call the pre-steps or the conditions precedent
• 2:21
  would be to call an attorney.
• 2:24
  You need to speak to an attorney, explain the situation, um, whether you have children,
• 2:30
  don't have children, how old your children are, if there are any special circumstances
• 2:36
  regarding your children, mental health issues, maybe special needs, or if you're blessed and
• 2:45
  there are none of those issues.
• 2:48
  And then you also need to get what I would call your financial ducks
• 2:51
  in a row.
• 2:52
  And so you need to speak to an attorney to fully explain your financial situation and so
• 2:58
  that they can best advise you on what you need to do to get the ball rolling.
• 3:02
  Okay.
• 3:03
  Danielle, for you, is it different in Bezden preparing somebody?
• 3:11
  So it's an interesting question because it really depends.
• 3:16
  Bezden is not for every couple,
• 3:18
  not for every divorce.
• 3:21
  If there is a situation where it's a high net worth case, for example,
• 3:26
  the first thing I'm doing is calling an attorney.
• 3:28
  If someone comes into my office,
• 3:30
  let's say before they call an attorney and they say, listen, I, I want to get divorced.
• 3:35
  I don't know what my route should be.
• 3:36
  I don't know what my strategy should be.
• 3:37
  I don't know
• 3:38
  what to do.
• 3:38
  Can you sit down with me and explain to me what to do next?
• 3:42
  So I'll sit down with them.
• 3:44
  I'll look through their financials, you know, their situation with their children, um, assets,
• 3:53
  all of it.
• 3:54
  And if it's an example, like, like I said, a high net worth situation where
• 4:00
  in Besden, for example, alimony is not on the table, the first thing I'm doing is calling an
• 4:06
  attorney and making sure that my client is secure in the fact that they get alimony.
• 4:13
  What is your role exactly?
• 4:15
  What does a tow-in do?
• 4:18
  So my role is, I mean, I guess the best way to explain it
• 4:23
  without sounding like I'm pretending to be an attorney is, which is a crime,
• 4:29
  is to, um, basically kind of like a lawyer, but in the Jewish world.
• 4:35
  So I represent my clients in Besdan, which is the Jewish courts.
• 4:40
  Um, also a mediation.
• 4:43
  Um, sometimes, you know, there's different ways people handle it.
• 4:47
  Sometimes it's towing to towing.
• 4:49
  For example, if someone's getting divorced, they don't want to go into Besdan.
• 4:54
  They don't want to
• 4:54
  go into mediation.
• 4:56
  They want to keep things amicable.
• 4:57
  They don't want to have, you know,
• 5:00
  a full out war.
• 5:01
  Sometimes what my client and I will do is make lists.
• 5:05
  What's a non-negotiable?
• 5:07
  What's a negotiable?
• 5:08
  You know, what's our bottom line?
• 5:10
  What we're willing to give up?
• 5:12
  And the other talent and I will negotiate a divorce agreement.
• 5:17
  How often is it run seamlessly versus chaotically?
• 5:22
  And I'm talking to both of you because
• 5:24
  what I see online is pure chaos, honestly.
• 5:27
  And I guess those are the most extreme cases because
• 5:30
  those are the most like exciting to post online, but it never seems to run so smoothly.
• 5:38
  It always
• 5:38
  seems chaotic.
• 5:40
  Well, I think that that's because it wouldn't be interesting or exciting to see
• 5:45
  something online that runs smoothly or something that is amicable isn't as exciting.
• 5:52
  So you
• 5:53
  wouldn't see it online.
• 5:54
  So for me, my preference is always to try and settle a case.
• 6:01
  And so there
• 6:01
  are some cases that can be resolved completely outside of court where both sides have attorneys
• 6:07
  and the attorneys will negotiate an agreement and the parties never see the inside of a courtroom.
• 6:13
  It could take, depending on, you know, if it's a high net worth case, which is, you know, more my
• 6:19
  bread and butter.
• 6:22
  Negotiating a settlement, even in the most amicable of cases, if there are complex
• 6:26
  financials, that can take, you know, a year.
• 6:30
  There could have to be business valuations
• 6:33
  and other financial discovery that has to be done so it could take time.
• 6:38
  So the preference is always to try and settle cases and keep it amicable, especially if there
• 6:42
  are children, because the two parents are going to be involved in each other's lives, whether they
• 6:48
  like it or not for a very long time.
• 6:51
  But there's a lot of cases where that's not possible.
• 6:55
  And so
• 6:55
  that's really where you see things on social media and online, because those are the juicier,
• 7:00
  more exciting cases because there's more drama.
• 7:03
  In the religious court system, is there
• 7:08
  incentive to be posting things online or is it a disservice to your client?
• 7:16
  So it depends on the situation.
• 7:17
  I mean, just last week, I posted that Atoni and I had two Zooms, and we knocked out a divorce agreement, which is unheard of.
• 7:26
  It was done in two hours.
• 7:29
  They wanted to preserve the relationship, keep it amicable.
• 7:33
  They said, just get it done.
• 7:35
  Happened to have been a wealthier family.
• 7:39
  they already pre-agree you know because if you're working outside the bezden system
• 7:43
  but it's still toined and they agree okay we're going to do alimony in that way that was
• 7:49
  easier but in terms of online sometimes just to bring awareness i think a big issue in the
• 7:57
  community whether you're modern to hasidish is that it's such a taboo so i think that i like
• 8:06
  to post things so people realize they're not alone.
• 8:08
  I know when I got divorced, I was very,
• 8:10
  very young.
• 8:12
  I didn't know anybody else my age that was divorced.
• 8:15
  I didn't, it was, I mean,
• 8:16
  I got divorced.
• 8:17
  My oldest is 16 and he was three.
• 8:21
  So I didn't even know anybody unless they were
• 8:24
  really like old, like my parents who were divorced, you know?
• 8:26
  So I think a lot of what
• 8:28
  motivates me personally to post is that they're not alone.
• 8:34
  They're not the only one going through
• 8:35
  this.
• 8:36
  And I think also to give education, if someone's not divorced, maybe their sibling is
• 8:41
  divorced.
• 8:41
  Maybe their good friend is divorced.
• 8:45
  It is an isolating thing to go through.
• 8:47
  But also
• 8:48
  there are so many people who are told you don't need a towing who are in the best in system or
• 8:52
  the religious system.
• 8:53
  You don't need anybody to represent you.
• 8:55
  And they get royally screwed
• 8:57
  because they believe that.
• 8:59
  So I want to show this is what,
• 9:03
  what does that mean like I asked Carly what it like means to have like what are the first steps
• 9:09
  for you what are the first steps like it I wouldn't even know who to call a rabbi would
• 9:14
  say you would need a need a toe in or like what would I do because if I'm just coming in blind
• 9:19
  I've never been to a based in before I've never had any of this how would I even know what to do
• 9:24
  and what my steps are.
• 9:26
  It's a problem because people don't know.
• 9:30
  You would call a towing.
• 9:32
  They would sit down with you.
• 9:33
  Hopefully they would be honest with you
• 9:35
  and explain to you that,
• 9:36
  listen, this is a case that needs to be in court.
• 9:38
  Let me help you get a heterochise,
• 9:40
  which is a hetero to go to court.
• 9:43
  Okay, I didn't even know that existed
• 9:44
  until Carly said something this morning.
• 9:46
  And I was like, what are you talking about?
• 9:49
  Yeah.
• 9:49
  Explain exactly what that is.
• 9:51
  What does that even mean, a heterochise,
• 9:53
  in regards to this?
• 9:55
  So I don't know if I'll let Yael answer it because she deals with this a lot more.
• 10:00
  Go ahead, Yael.
• 10:02
  Well, I was just going to say that in many cases, if you need to go to court and you just go without getting a hater from a rabbi, the other side can summons you to court, to Besden, excuse me, and it can become a whole thing.
• 10:20
  I remember now Carly who we were talking to talking about on the right who we were on a
• 10:25
  call with and they were in a similar situation happens to be that that Besden is a rogue Besden
• 10:30
  that if this person gets a syrup it's it means that they're an honest good person like I would
• 10:35
  be thrilled um but in real life like other than that case you don't want a syrup it's not something
• 10:43
  that's comfortable or, you know, you don't want it.
• 10:49
  So it's important to get a heterochise
• 10:51
  to, so you can go to court.
• 10:54
  And that's something that, you know, I coordinate.
• 10:58
  So I want you to explain things to me like I am three years old, because really you're saying
• 11:04
  words and I have no idea what you're saying.
• 11:08
  And I, and as somebody who, listen, I grew up in the
• 11:13
  modern orthodox also i don't know what comes next and i think a lot of women and men until
• 11:22
  they're stepping in it do not know a thing we don't know about prenups we don't know about
• 11:27
  post-nups we don't know about any of this stuff because we we honestly we get married at 20 years
• 11:31
  old and we're thrown in a lot of times in the shidduch system or not in the shidduch system
• 11:37
  And you still don't know.
• 11:39
  So the concept is that if you are a from Jew, you are not supposed to go to the secular courts to resolve your disputes.
• 11:48
  You are supposed to go to a base in to resolve your dispute, whether it is a business dispute or a personal dispute.
• 11:56
  And so if you are going to get divorced and based in is not appropriate for your situation, for whatever reason, it can be a strategic reason.
• 12:04
  It can be, in my view, if there is serious domestic violence or very serious mental health or substance issues, things like that, you technically need permission to be able to go.
• 12:16
  So that's what Yael is referring to.
• 12:18
  Yes.
• 12:18
  Sorry.
• 12:19
  So when you go to Besden and you have the issues that Carly just listed, many times it's not to your advantage.
• 12:31
  And it depends on the case, of course.
• 12:34
  but many times court is the safest option for you.
• 12:37
  So if a client comes into my office and says, listen,
• 12:41
  I was in a terrible marriage.
• 12:43
  My husband was a molester, a pedophile,
• 12:47
  and he touched all of the kids and horrible, horrible.
• 12:52
  The first thing I'm doing is sending them to Carly's office.
• 12:55
  Why?
• 12:56
  Because there's so much to take care of
• 13:01
  that is not done in the Besden system.
• 13:04
  Many times I stay on the case,
• 13:07
  but I'm not dealing with it in Besden.
• 13:11
  It wouldn't be ethical to do that.
• 13:13
  But what I will do is call a Ruv,
• 13:16
  have a conversation with the Ruv,
• 13:18
  explain why this person cannot go to Besden
• 13:23
  and why it's unsafe for that person to go.
• 13:27
  and we take it from there um these days most Rabbanim and Dayanim are extremely
• 13:38
  not all of them of course some of them still live you know in the shtetls but they're usually
• 13:43
  pretty understanding um as especially domestic violence towards women they've they've thank god
• 13:50
  people are really opening their eyes to how dangerous it could be.
• 13:54
  And it is.
• 13:54
  So yeah,
• 13:57
  that's, you know, and that's pretty much how it goes.
• 13:59
  Listen, I recently just had a case now,
• 14:02
  it's actually still going on, that we got a Heterokais.
• 14:06
  The other side wanted me to share
• 14:08
  who the rabbi was who gave the Heter, because they didn't believe that there was, the Heter
• 14:13
  would be a good enough Hector.
• 14:15
  And this is a man whose child, they had one child, one child,
• 14:21
  and the other side would not allow her, allow him to see the child, no matter what.
• 14:26
  She enrolled
• 14:27
  the child in a new school, whole situation, horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible.
• 14:32
  It was
• 14:33
  a baby.
• 14:33
  She, he missed her first birthday.
• 14:35
  That is not a case that I would necessarily put in court.
• 14:39
  I mean, I'm sorry, in Besden, it would be a court situation because, hello, this is way above the Besden's purview.
• 14:48
  They did not believe.
• 14:49
  They sent me a hazmana to Besden, me personally, because they thought that I was making it up.
• 14:55
  It was the first time I actually ever got served to Besden.
• 15:00
  When it comes to things like this, you say like it's above Besden's pay grade.
• 15:05
  Okay.
• 15:06
  Right.
• 15:08
  How do I know what is above?
• 15:10
  And like, would these rabbis even agree that it's above their pay grade?
• 15:15
  Because honestly, there's ego involved in all of this, right?
• 15:18
  A judge has ego, a bastion has ego.
• 15:21
  We have egos.
• 15:22
  We all do, right?
• 15:22
  So are they self-aware enough to go, yeah, no, this is not a bastion issue.
• 15:30
  This is a civil court issue.
• 15:35
  So it depends on a few things.
• 15:36
  It depends on the rabbi.
• 15:37
  It depends on the rabbi and also who you call first.
• 15:45
  I mean, like if you call Carly, she's going to explain to you straight up like you can.
• 15:49
  This is a court situation.
• 15:50
  If you come to me, I will tell you straight up.
• 15:53
  This is something for court.
• 15:55
  I don't know that every towing would say that.
• 15:57
  Also, if you're in a certain sect of Judaism, depending on what it is, that might not be an option for you in general.
• 16:04
  It's very rare for them to go to court.
• 16:08
  But it really depends.
• 16:09
  It's so many variables.
• 16:10
  Carly, do you have the same experience?
• 16:12
  I do.
• 16:13
  So I think that, first of all, there's a lot of variables.
• 16:15
  But in my mind, the more extreme cases, and for right now I'm talking about not financial.
• 16:22
  I'm talking more like related to custody or related to mental health or substance issues
• 16:28
  or domestic violence issues.
• 16:30
  In my view, those are the more extreme cases.
• 16:32
  And when I say mental health, I mean real mental health.
• 16:34
  I'm not saying, oh, my husband's a narcissist or, oh, my wife is a narcissist.
• 16:38
  When you're getting divorced, everyone says their spouse is a narcissist.
• 16:41
  If you didn't think your spouse was a narcissist, you probably wouldn't be getting divorced.
• 16:45
  So when I say mental health, I mean real mental health.
• 16:47
  I mean bipolar that is undiagnosed, unregulated, unmedicated, schizophrenia, psychosis, borderline personality disorder that, you know, can bleed into substance issues.
• 16:59
  And mind you, these things, all of these mental health issues can be corrected and taken care of.
• 17:05
  As a therapist, I'm telling you that.
• 17:07
  It doesn't mean they go away, but if treated properly through medication, through therapy, through all sorts of avenues, you could have a healthy marriage.
• 17:18
  I want to make that abundantly clear.
• 17:20
  In these cases, they just don't have a healthy marriage.
• 17:23
  Maybe they're untreated or things like that.
• 17:25
  Correct.
• 17:26
  Or it's been so unregulated and unmanaged for so long that it's too far gone.
• 17:31
  Exactly.
• 17:31
  So in my view, the based in system can't handle those types of cases.
• 17:38
  And I don't mean to offend anyone when I say this, but it's because they don't have the
• 17:42
  firepower behind them.
• 17:43
  Right.
• 17:44
  So let's say there is a domestic violence situation and someone needs an order of protection.
• 17:50
  Right.
• 17:51
  If a party violates the order of protection, you call the police and they come and they
• 17:56
  arrest the person who violated it.
• 17:58
  The based in doesn't have, as far as I know, a similar concept.
• 18:02
  And like people are less scared of showroom than they are of the actual police.
• 18:07
  So they don't have that firepower behind them in terms of like substance and substance or alcohol abuse.
• 18:15
  I'm sure that if you are in based in, you could put in place all of the monitoring, right, privately that you would need to ensure that a parent who has had struggles, if they're committed to sobriety and moving their life forward can do right.
• 18:30
  You could put into place sober link or, you know, random drug testing, substance abuse, you know, neutral monitor.
• 18:38
  You could do all of that.
• 18:39
  But again, they don't have the firepower behind them necessarily where I think that the threat of a judge in a black robe and a court officer standing there sometimes is scarier to someone than three Dayanam in a bastion.
• 18:55
  It's interesting because I think the more religious you get, and I could be wrong, but they're like, but God's looking at you.
• 19:04
  They're the ultimate judge, right?
• 19:05
  That is kind of the argument that people have.
• 19:08
  They're like, but Hashem, he's the one making the rules and the bastion and all this stuff.
• 19:15
  But ultimately, I think that we are earthly beings and we we need consequences to actions like that are tangible rather than just this like, oh, Hashem will come correct.
• 19:29
  And the basin and day on him and all of this, I think it gets very sticky.
• 19:34
  Well, I also think that at least in New York and I know that Yael primarily right.
• 19:38
  You primarily practice in Jersey, right?
• 19:41
  No, I mean, I know everywhere.
• 19:42
  It's pretty equal.
• 19:44
  But it does depend.
• 19:46
  I'm sorry to cut you off.
• 19:47
  So in New York, a PSOC from a based in about custody is technically unenforceable.
• 19:55
  So you could go to based in for a custody issue and they can issue their PSOC like their decision.
• 20:02
  And both parties actually then really have to convert it to an agreement and sign it and have it notarized for it to actually be enforceable.
• 20:10
  So if you have a case where custody is contested and it's really contentious between the parties, I personally don't think it's a good idea to go to Bayston for that situation because if one of them is unhappy with the decision, which is inevitable, right?
• 20:26
  It happens in court too.
• 20:27
  Someone's always unhappy.
• 20:30
  A lot of times both people are unhappy.
• 20:32
  But if you're unhappy, you can just say, I'm not signing it.
• 20:35
  Like, I'm not agreeing.
• 20:36
  And then you've wasted all of this time and money in Bayston litigating the issue of custody because it's actually not enforceable.
• 20:42
  It's a public policy issue in New York.
• 20:44
  So I don't know how it works in New Jersey or in other states, but in New York, it's not enforceable.
• 20:50
  I have you know, I'm involved in a case now where a Bayston actually retained me to sort of formalize the PSOC on custody into a written agreement because those parties didn't know that it wouldn't be enforceable.
• 21:04
  and when the judge saw it he was like absolutely not i'm not i'm not signing off on this i don't
• 21:08
  think this is in the best interest of these children um and so and the courts have that power
• 21:14
  and so a lot of times in those highly contested custody cases at least in new york the parties
• 21:19
  have to be informed that it might not be the best place to go is based in for those custody issues
• 21:26
  either.
• 21:27
  So when they talk about the get as extortion, okay, or they're using it as collateral
• 21:35
  to get what they want in regards to money, in regards to custody, in regards to all of these
• 21:39
  things, right?
• 21:41
  How do you avoid that when you're competing with different court systems is what it
• 21:47
  feels like?
• 21:48
  How does that work, y'all?
• 21:49
  Well, it's actually interesting.
• 21:51
  I did want to say,
• 21:51
  just I wanted to touch on one thing I when you said you know but people you know from people
• 21:57
  like very from people say oh but god um god's watching I think more than anything it's the
• 22:03
  community that's watching it's not god it's not the police some people are not scared of the of
• 22:08
  a judge they're more scared of the die on them because that die-in might be a big figure in the
• 22:13
  community and that's more embarrassing than some random judge like they don't they don't care about
• 22:19
  You know what I mean?
• 22:20
  They care about what the community is going to say.
• 22:22
  So some people will listen.
• 22:24
  Just not that you should ever rely on that because one day someone could change their mind and not care and then you're screwed.
• 22:32
  But a big thing is the community and community pressure, which is kind of ties into your question about social media and posting.
• 22:43
  It's a big pressure.
• 22:46
  but in terms of the get the most the thing I tell my clients is the minute you care about
• 22:53
  the get is the minute becomes a bargaining chip if you take it off the table and say I don't care
• 23:01
  it loses its power the get is only as powerful as you allow it to be
• 23:07
  I have never heard that.
• 23:10
  It's 100% true.
• 23:12
  Why are we not blasting that on social media?
• 23:15
  Like, don't give the get the power.
• 23:18
  Why is that not talked about?
• 23:20
  So I think that one of the reasons, right, so if a man is going, so at least if you're in a divorce in a secular court system and it's a very contentious case and it's being litigated, that case could take three to five years from start to judgment if you're going to trial.
• 23:35
  It could be even longer, let's say, if you're in New York County, because for financial
• 23:39
  trials, the wait right now is very long.
• 23:42
  So men in that three to five year period or however long it's taking can go on a date,
• 23:49
  right?
• 23:49
  They're allowed.
• 23:50
  Women can't.
• 23:51
  So if a woman wants to move on, go on a date, meet someone, they're not allowed.
• 23:57
  So I think that that has a particular hold over women, like the desire to move on.
• 24:04
  I think the get also provides spiritual closure to someone.
• 24:08
  But the more someone says, like, I want my get, I want my get, I want my get, he hasn't
• 24:13
  given me my get, it gets into the other person's mind, this is what they really want.
• 24:18
  And when you're negotiating, right, because most cases don't go to trial.
• 24:22
  Most cases, even I would say probably 95% of my cases end up settling.
• 24:28
  Some of the 5% that go to trial, even a few of those end up settling on the steps of the courthouse at the beginning of trial, in the middle of trial.
• 24:36
  Right.
• 24:36
  So there's always negotiation that's happening.
• 24:41
  And if someone knows that this is the one thing that is so important to you, they know that they have it over you.
• 24:47
  If you say, OK, I'm going to get my get when I get my get, it's no longer as much of a bargaining chip.
• 24:54
  And at least in New York, because there is a get law, the divorce isn't – the judgment of divorce cannot be issued until a get is given.
• 25:02
  And the judges do have creative ways and powerful ways of ensuring that a get is given.
• 25:09
  It just is going to take time because it usually happens right before the case is over.
• 25:16
  And so that could take three years.
• 25:17
  That could take five years.
• 25:19
  So when you see stuff online, is it really just like are they using are they using the court system to manipulate the get or is it vice versa where like you're the get is just going to come when the court.
• 25:35
  I think it depends on it depends on a few things.
• 25:39
  So first in New York.
• 25:42
  Right now, listen, a get can be given at any time.
• 25:44
  It does not have to be given at the end of the case.
• 25:47
  And so there are people who say I'm not giving it until a settlement agreement is signed or right before when the case is over, right before a judgment divorce.
• 25:55
  That's when I'm going to give it.
• 25:57
  And that is being used as a bargaining chip.
• 26:00
  But with what Yael is saying, if you're like, OK, well, I can't get civilly remarried until I'm divorced, so I'm just not going to get religiously remarried or go on a date until my case is over, it's no longer the bargaining chip.
• 26:16
  I'm not saying it's fair or it's right.
• 26:18
  That is definitely not what I'm saying, and I don't want anyone to misinterpret that.
• 26:21
  I think that if someone wants their get, it should be given.
• 26:24
  I don't think it should ever be a bargaining chip.
• 26:27
  but if you no longer act like it's a big deal and it's not the elephant in the room to you
• 26:33
  it probably isn't going to be the elephant in the room to someone else do you feel that way also
• 26:39
  like i mean like it's so every day that we don't care about it's such an interesting thing because
• 26:45
  i actually heard somebody online she was in the middle of a divorce and she's like i literally
• 26:51
  don't care she's like i don't care about my gut and the minute i stopped caring she she's like a
• 26:58
  personality online she's like yeah i don't care i'll date non-jews sorry and i was like whoa that
• 27:04
  was a wild that's but that's but that's something that that's that is a strategic move that's
• 27:12
  something even if it's not a hundred percent true i'm a hundred percent fine you want to be
• 27:17
  responsible for her dating a non-Jew, go for it.
• 27:19
  It's your problem.
• 27:20
  You know, not mine.
• 27:21
  If you want
• 27:22
  to go to sleep at night knowing that you enabled somebody to not give a get and now they're going
• 27:27
  to go date non-Jews, honey, that's all you.
• 27:30
  Interesting.
• 27:31
  And that's on the man, right?
• 27:33
  Like if they're spiritually, that's on the man.
• 27:36
  There is like ramifications for them.
• 27:40
  But like there's, I mean, listen.
• 27:44
  Oh no, sorry, Carla.
• 27:45
  I was just going to say that
• 27:47
  I think also a big thing is there's differing opinions.
• 27:52
  So a big thing in the firm world these days is you give a woman a get the minute she asks for it, uncontested, just give it, unconditional, the minute she asks for it, you give it.
• 28:04
  But the problem is that there are different rabbinic opinions.
• 28:11
  And not everybody holds by every different opinion, right?
• 28:14
  I mean, what's the saying?
• 28:16
  Two Jews, three opinions.
• 28:18
  So we're a litigious people.
• 28:22
  Yes, we are.
• 28:27
  And I think that you also have to know your audience.
• 28:30
  You have to know who you're dealing with.
• 28:31
  You have to know the background.
• 28:33
  You know, it's hard whenever we answer questions like this,
• 28:36
  and I know I'm sure for Carly also,
• 28:37
  that everything is so dependent on whether we're dealing with somebody
• 28:41
  who's modern, Hasidic, Litvish, very, very, very Yeshivish, Rebish, you know, there's so,
• 28:50
  the spectrum, the variables don't, it's endless.
• 28:55
  It's endless.
• 28:56
  I have a Chabad client now who,
• 28:59
  her husband is a get refuser.
• 29:01
  I mean, there's no way to, no other way to put it.
• 29:03
  And the other
• 29:04
  side's towing said to me, you know how it's done.
• 29:07
  You're Chabad.
• 29:07
  You know that it's not done till
• 29:09
  after the get.
• 29:10
  That's not what's done here.
• 29:11
  Where's the rabbinic opinion on that?
• 29:13
  Because
• 29:13
  that's just been how it's done.
• 29:15
  That doesn't mean it's okay.
• 29:16
  I want topless.
• 29:17
  I want you to show me
• 29:18
  where it says that.
• 29:19
  If they were somebody from, if they were Heimish, for example, and Rob Belsky
• 29:24
  says it shouldn't be done, given before custody and financials are finished.
• 29:31
  Okay, give me that
• 29:32
  argument.
• 29:32
  That's a fair argument.
• 29:34
  I mean, I'm not going to accept it.
• 29:35
  I'm going to fight for my
• 29:36
  client anyway.
• 29:36
  I'm going to find every loophole under the sun, but at least give me something
• 29:40
  that means that holds its weight.
• 29:42
  But to say that's what's not done, that's not fair.
• 29:45
  That's
• 29:45
  not okay.
• 29:46
  Do you think that actually, because in the religious court system, we don't take,
• 29:54
  there's a, how do I phrase this without getting into trouble?
• 30:00
  we we focus on the morality of a person right that always comes into play and in the court
• 30:08
  system it's pretty black and white of like this is the law and this is what we're allowed and what
• 30:14
  is going on because there's sort of this nuance in the religious court system for people to
• 30:22
  it really is the court of public opinion at this point or rabbinic opinion do you think that
• 30:29
  how you present yourself
• 30:34
  like based on your morals and and religiosity affects the outcome of your case in baston
• 30:44
  it can it can it's a so this is a big part of what i do is figuring out which besin would be the best
• 30:51
  the best Besden for my client because every Besden is different.
• 30:55
  Every Besden is good for
• 30:56
  something else.
• 30:57
  It's not, I mean, I'm sure Carly has this with judges, not to this extent, of
• 31:01
  course, but you know, this judge might focus more on this or this judge tends to like this.
• 31:07
  And in my case, it's okay.
• 31:09
  This Besden is really, really, really good with abuse for women.
• 31:15
  they are trauma informed they understand um i'm saying if my client doesn't want to go to court
• 31:23
  or couldn't get a hetter and they and they won't go you know that kind of thing they understand
• 31:27
  we're going to go to this bezden now would i send a hazmana which is an invitation to bezden from
• 31:33
  that bezden that's a whole another conversation about halafas let's not go to halafas because i'm
• 31:39
  not, we're not even, I'm not, I'm not privy to any of that.
• 31:43
  I'm just saying there's a strategy.
• 31:45
  There's a strategy behind where we go and, and how we can use that to my client's advantage.
• 31:52
  So basically we, there's a little picking and choosing.
• 31:55
  And sometimes that is a strategy.
• 31:57
  Okay.
• 31:57
  So all of these things, they all play into the success of your client's outcome, right?
• 32:04
  And,
• 32:05
  and all of that.
• 32:07
  When we talk about prenups and postnups, do you recommend them or you don't
• 32:11
  recommend them?
• 32:12
  Always recommend.
• 32:13
  So actually, that's not fair.
• 32:15
  And I don't actually like to
• 32:16
  speak in absolutes.
• 32:17
  And I always tell my clients, if you're testifying, if you're signing an
• 32:20
  affidavit, the word always and the word never, never appear.
• 32:23
  Because when you find the one
• 32:25
  exception, your credibility can be destroyed.
• 32:30
  I think a prenup is usually a very good idea.
• 32:35
  in a lot of situations, but there are situations where a prenup is not needed.
• 32:41
  So I also see, and this is not even in the modern world these days, most modern Orthodox rabbis
• 32:49
  will not perform a wedding, right?
• 32:54
  They will not do it unless the halakhic prenup is signed.
• 32:57
  But I thought it doesn't hold up in court.
• 32:59
  So the halakhic prenup, it does.
• 33:01
  It has to be done in a certain way.
• 33:03
  OK.
• 33:04
  There were also some what I would call growing pains with the Halakhic prenup and the different iterations of it.
• 33:10
  It also needs to be notarized and acknowledged with the same formalities as a deed.
• 33:15
  So there's a special signature block, which the BDA form now has in order for it to be an enforceable matrimonial agreement, at least in New York.
• 33:23
  and the way that it holds up is by way of what I'm going to call the financial penalty clause
• 33:30
  because it basically says that for every day that you know you asked for a get and it wasn't given
• 33:36
  there is a financial penalty whether it's 150 a day or 350 a day now if you figure out how much
• 33:42
  that is depending on the finances it's not so much money so there are some men who are like
• 33:46
  whatever.
• 33:48
  What's 150 times three?
• 33:49
  Okay.
• 33:50
  5,000 bucks a month.
• 33:51
  Like that's fine.
• 33:52
  Doesn't really
• 33:52
  change my life.
• 33:53
  But in a lot of cases, that amount of money does matter.
• 33:57
  Putting the halachic prenup
• 33:58
  aside, the trend now in secular relationships and secular marriages, whether they're Jewish,
• 34:06
  secular, or just not Jewish, especially with younger people is to have prenups.
• 34:11
  And I
• 34:11
  definitely think that that is the way the world is going because it's sort of an insurance policy.
• 34:19
  It does greatly truncate and narrow the issues if, God forbid, you go to get divorced and will make
• 34:26
  the cost of that divorce significantly less expensive because you're already delineating
• 34:32
  assets as either marital or separate if they are marital, how they're going to be divided,
• 34:38
  and a lot of ambiguity or how the waters can get muddied with separate property and the
• 34:44
  arguments you can make of whether it's been commingled with marital property.
• 34:47
  So now it's subject to equitable distribution, meaning being divided or transmuted, meaning
• 34:54
  it was separate.
• 34:54
  But now because of something you did, it's marital.
• 34:59
  That ambiguity and those issues can be dealt with in a prenup.
• 35:04
  So a lot of people are doing them.
• 35:06
  But if you're two very young people who have similar financial circumstances, who aren't coming from families with tremendous wealth or you're not going to have a huge inheritance in those situations, it's not necessary.
• 35:19
  But otherwise, it is usually a good idea.
• 35:21
  You and yell for the religious like halakhic prenup.
• 35:26
  Do you recommend that for most people?
• 35:29
  absolutely absolutely there's a big problem there's a big problem in the very very firm world
• 35:37
  they don't pull um they don't sign it they don't hold by it because they feel that the katuba
• 35:41
  i have a question here actually that talks about is the katuba like really a sentimental contract
• 35:48
  or a legal headache like these things they they look at the katuba as their prenup or as their
• 35:55
  contract.
• 35:57
  Am I wrong?
• 35:59
  I wouldn't say you're wrong, but I would say that, I mean, it's not something,
• 36:04
  it almost never comes into play ever.
• 36:06
  Um, at least in my world, um, it might say something like,
• 36:12
  like the Kasuba money.
• 36:13
  For example, if a man leaves, a husband leaves the wife, for example,
• 36:19
  um they have to give something called kasuba money which is a certain amount of money
• 36:26
  that they have to give because they're leaving it's something that's in the kasuba that is
• 36:31
  supposed to um take care of the woman it's kind of like kind of like a money settlement or
• 36:38
  something like that um unfortunately it's not done often enough people don't know to fight for it
• 36:48
  some residents will say, ah, it's never done anymore.
• 36:51
  Forget it.
• 36:53
  Um, and it's a big problem.
• 36:55
  It's actually a huge problem.
• 36:57
  I always tell women to, if the circumstances, you know, align,
• 37:01
  then you absolutely should be fighting for your Kusuba.
• 37:04
  It's your right.
• 37:06
  Your Kusuba money.
• 37:07
  Um,
• 37:07
  the amount of money, it's actually very interesting because some Kusubas will say
• 37:12
  a million dollars.
• 37:13
  Some will say $25,000, $50,000, $100,000.
• 37:15
  It could say anything.
• 37:16
  I know there
• 37:20
  have been quite a few Sephardi, um, cause you've money $2 million.
• 37:24
  I mean, like they have like
• 37:26
  different amounts.
• 37:26
  Okay.
• 37:27
  No one pays for the stars ladies.
• 37:28
  No one pays,
• 37:31
  but no one pays it.
• 37:32
  It almost hurts the credibility of the Kasuba.
• 37:34
  There have been
• 37:34
  times where I've been in bed and they'll say, it says a million dollars.
• 37:38
  He's not giving a million
• 37:39
  dollars.
• 37:39
  Forget it.
• 37:40
  There's no Kusuba money.
• 37:42
  I'm a very big, big, big advocate for
• 37:48
  getting whatever you're entitled to.
• 37:49
  I don't think you need to fight.
• 37:51
  I think you could do
• 37:52
  it with a smile on your face, but I do think that you deserve what you deserve.
• 37:58
  And if that's
• 37:58
  Kusuba money, yes, you should get it.
• 38:01
  Can I ask you based on what you both have seen,
• 38:07
  you've seen many people come in and out of your doors right um getting divorced what's one of the
• 38:14
  red flags that most people like that come in say like i should have known this on the first date
• 38:23
  why did i do this why did i get married to this person and there's usually like i see them on in
• 38:28
  the therapy part of of this um is there some sort of pattern that you guys normally see
• 38:36
  I don't think I see a pattern, but most of my clients, when they come in, it's not because something changed, right?
• 38:45
  People – and I don't really think people change unless there's some type of catastrophic or tragic or monumental, as would be like the positive to catastrophic, circumstance that happened in someone's life.
• 38:59
  Absent those three situations, people don't change.
• 39:01
  They are who they are.
• 39:02
  And but I do think that people only allow you to see what they want you to see of them.
• 39:09
  But there are signs.
• 39:11
  I remember I had a client years ago and she was like, he was an asshole when I met him.
• 39:17
  He was an asshole while I was dating him.
• 39:18
  And he still is today.
• 39:19
  She was like, he didn't change.
• 39:20
  He's just always been awful.
• 39:24
  Listen, it depends on the world you're living in.
• 39:27
  There are some people who they've been dating a long time.
• 39:29
  They feel really deep in.
• 39:31
  they're older and they just want to get married.
• 39:33
  There are some people in our world who are really
• 39:37
  young and maybe they don't know what to look for.
• 39:40
  They don't fully know who they are as a person
• 39:42
  yet.
• 39:43
  And, you know, one of the beautiful things about the Shidduch system is if you have two
• 39:47
  really young people, they can learn to grow together.
• 39:51
  But a lot of times that doesn't happen.
• 39:53
  Right.
• 39:55
  But there are definitely red flags.
• 39:56
  I think how someone treats their family members,
• 39:59
  how someone treats waiters or people in the service industry, how someone treats their
• 40:04
  friends, the relationship they have with those people.
• 40:07
  I think that those are usually pretty
• 40:09
  good indicators.
• 40:11
  I also, as someone who got married later in life by Jewish standards,
• 40:16
  I think I was 33 when I got married.
• 40:21
  When I was dating, I always, and maybe it's because of what
• 40:24
  I do for a living, but I always thought to myself, what would it be like to get divorced from this
• 40:29
  person.
• 40:30
  And that was one of the things I considered and evaluated in looking at the people I was
• 40:37
  dating and who I was going to marry.
• 40:39
  For you, y'all, do you see any red flags that are like,
• 40:43
  this is constant?
• 40:46
  I wouldn't say constant, but I will say things like, I'll never forget,
• 40:52
  I had a client walk into my office and she said, I should have known from the beginning,
• 40:56
  but I didn't know those were red flags.
• 40:59
  A lot of the people I deal with, I mean, I do deal a lot
• 41:02
  with modern Orthodox people, but I predominantly deal with the more ultra Orthodox side of the
• 41:10
  spectrum.
• 41:10
  So they'll say, listen, we only dated for a few weeks and the research my family got
• 41:19
  was clearly not true.
• 41:20
  You know, people lied during research.
• 41:24
  This is not who I wanted.
• 41:25
  This
• 41:25
  is not what I agreed to.
• 41:27
  This is not who, or there'll be people who'll say, listen, I've had
• 41:30
  this a few times where, listen, we were walking in the street and he kept walking in front of me.
• 41:36
  I've noticed that is a big thing.
• 41:38
  It's so interesting because I never thought of it or
• 41:40
  heard of it, but he was always, you know, it was like, I just was disposable.
• 41:43
  Like he would just
• 41:44
  keep walking.
• 41:44
  And then he'd say, you know, hurry up.
• 41:47
  That's just a few times I've heard that.
• 41:49
  It's
• 41:49
  not something, you know, it's an interesting nuance to pick up on just the walking ahead,
• 41:56
  not walking with you, not matching your pace, kind of like living in your own world.
• 42:02
  I always found that really interesting, but I agree with Carly.
• 42:06
  I think a lot of it is you,
• 42:08
  And people don't change unless obviously something happens.
• 42:13
  But I think that in my world, people don't always get the opportunity to see who that person is.
• 42:20
  And that's the big issue with what I – and also, I'll be honest, in the modern world too.
• 42:25
  I mean, they don't – a lot of modern people don't date much longer.
• 42:30
  So, yeah.
• 42:31
  Listen, I was in the modern world, modern Shidduch vibe, I guess.
• 42:35
  And we were engaged after two and a half months.
• 42:39
  That was it.
• 42:41
  It's it doesn't matter how religious you are when you're dating and you're not dating somebody for a long time and being with them in different life circumstances.
• 42:50
  You just don't know how they're going to act.
• 42:52
  You don't know how they're going to behave.
• 42:53
  You don't know what their actions are going to be.
• 42:55
  You have to go through different things to know what they're like for real.
• 43:00
  I always say that marry the person you think that you could divorce.
• 43:03
  You guys said the same thing.
• 43:05
  I think that's a good, that's a really good thing to look at.
• 43:08
  Obviously, we don't go into marriage thinking we're going to get divorced.
• 43:11
  But if you do, if you are looking at your relationship and going, okay, this person is kind in really terrible circumstances, then they'll still be kind to me if things go awry.
• 43:24
  But that's not always a hard and fast rule.
• 43:27
  Sorry.
• 43:27
  I was just going to say, just, you know, Carly said it best that...
• 43:33
  You, we don't like to talk in absolutes ever, you know, because there's so many different
• 43:40
  variables.
• 43:40
  We're only speaking about specific cases, but listen, there have been times I've had
• 43:46
  clients who've said he was so kind or she was so kind.
• 43:49
  She was so nice.
• 43:50
  I don't know what got into him or her.
• 43:52
  I don't know what happened.
• 43:54
  All of a sudden his mother speaking into his ear or her mother speaking into her ear.
• 43:58
  And that's, you know, they're listening to their parents or they're towing or their lawyer.
• 44:02
  And now they're being now they're fighting and we would never normally fight about this.
• 44:07
  That's something that comes up a lot for me as well.
• 44:09
  And I think that that plays a huge role just in general.
• 44:12
  There's always going to be outside entities that come into a relationship, whether it's a lawyer, a mother in law, a sister.
• 44:19
  It doesn't make a difference who it is.
• 44:21
  They do affect the relationship.
• 44:25
  And I think for me as a therapist, I'm going to say this, is that you need to build a foundation of your own family.
• 44:36
  And I know this sort of goes against a lot of what like our religious upbringing is because family is so important.
• 44:43
  Masora is so important, all of that.
• 44:45
  But ultimately, when you are choosing your partner, you are choosing a partner for life.
• 44:51
  You are choosing somebody to build your future with.
• 44:54
  So there needs to be a sense of I'm separating myself from every other entity, not isolating myself.
• 45:05
  You are still part of a tribe, but you need to remember that this is your person now.
• 45:14
  And if you build a healthy and happy and successful relationship with this person, everybody else will want to be a part of it also.
• 45:24
  Um, I agree.
• 45:26
  And I also think that, and I say this to, you know, friends of mine or so many people like to joke with me and be like, oh, well, you're a divorce lawyer.
• 45:33
  Like, what's your advice for marriage?
• 45:35
  Um, which is a bit ironic, but I actually love it.
• 45:40
  Go for it.
• 45:41
  Tell me all the advice.
• 45:42
  So and I am by no means a therapist.
• 45:44
  But one thing that I have always stayed true to, at least in my own marriage, and I tell other people is that there are going to be times that you fight with your spouse.
• 45:54
  There are going to be times where you disagree with your spouse.
• 45:56
  There's going to be times where you really in that moment, you're like, oh, I hate this person.
• 46:00
  Right.
• 46:00
  Or I'm so mad.
• 46:02
  To me, those are the times where you need to, in a way, be pretty tight lipped and not be the person who blabs to your friends, your mother, your sister, all of the people that are in your world that you naturally would want to go and confide in.
• 46:19
  Because, God willing, you and your spouse, whatever the argument was, you're going to come back from it.
• 46:24
  And it's sort of like you've spoiled the well.
• 46:28
  You can't unring that bell.
• 46:29
  And so once you've aired all of your dirty laundry to the people in your world that love you most, it's very difficult to protect and have them not view your partner in a negative light.
• 46:41
  And so if you're going to confide in someone, in my view, it really should be a neutral person like a therapist because otherwise you're going to move on from whatever the dispute was.
• 46:54
  But you're always going to have like your mother or your sister or your best friend in your ear being like, well, remember when.
• 46:59
  And I think that that is one of the ways that marriages get eroded over time.
• 47:04
  Like most of my clients don't come in because there was one major event that happened.
• 47:11
  In my opinion, most divorces are death by a thousand paper cuts.
• 47:15
  They are not, you know, point blank shot to the head.
• 47:18
  I love that.
• 47:19
  Actually, I mean, I don't love that, but I love that analogy because it's so true.
• 47:24
  I will not be airing that.
• 47:25
  I mean, I will be airing that, but you know what I'm saying.
• 47:29
  Okay.
• 47:29
  To end off, because I do think that that was like, really, that sums it up so beautifully,
• 47:34
  but people want something fun to end off on.
• 47:38
  What is your craziest situation you've had to deal with
• 47:43
  in the court system for you and in the Bayston for you?
• 47:47
  It could be a case, it could be a situation,
• 47:51
  whatever it may be craziest situation um this was years ago um i always say people always say that
• 47:59
  i should write a book and i say that if i if i wrote a book i wouldn't have clients um because
• 48:06
  to me discretion is really important you never you never know who you're in a room with who is
• 48:11
  listening and who could be like oh that is a crazy situation wait i heard of this situation i know who
• 48:17
  they're talking about.
• 48:19
  So that is something that I am always very careful of.
• 48:24
  But I would say the
• 48:26
  craziest situation I had was there was a couple and one of the parties had a really serious
• 48:33
  drug issue.
• 48:34
  And I'm talking serious drugs.
• 48:37
  I'm talking like crystal meth, real drugs,
• 48:40
  That's hardcore.
• 48:41
  Right.
• 48:41
  Hard drugs.
• 48:43
  And this person was supposedly clean and sober and working a program.
• 48:51
  And I was supposed to take the children away for the winter vacation.
• 48:57
  And my client called me in a panic and said, I think my spouse is using again.
• 49:04
  And it turned out that their dog had been acting erratically and the dog was not acting like itself.
• 49:16
  And the nanny took the dog to the vet and they did a ton of a battery of tests on the dog and the dog tested positive for amphetamines.
• 49:28
  Wow.
• 49:29
  It was because the person was using again and the dog had somehow, you know, something might have dropped on the floor or somehow gotten into it.
• 49:38
  And I remember calling my adversary and I was like, listen, we have a situation.
• 49:42
  I don't think this person is going to be taking the children away.
• 49:45
  There were lots of nasty things said.
• 49:47
  You know, you're lying.
• 49:48
  You don't know what you're talking about.
• 49:49
  How dare you make that accusation?
• 49:51
  And I said, listen, why don't you go and speak to your client and call me back?
• 49:58
  Wow.
• 49:58
  And the other lawyer called me back about 15 minutes later and said, your client can have the children for winter vacation.
• 50:04
  I was like, that's what I thought.
• 50:06
  Thank you.
• 50:07
  Wow.
• 50:08
  Okay.
• 50:08
  That is a wild one.
• 50:09
  I like that one.
• 50:10
  I mean, I don't like that for them, but.
• 50:12
  Okay.
• 50:14
  Y'all, any good, any wild stories?
• 50:18
  I know you had a crazy one recently you were dealing with in Columbia.
• 50:23
  Which one?
• 50:24
  Yeah.
• 50:25
  Yes.
• 50:26
  What was that?
• 50:26
  Because I did not understand it at all, but I know there's something good there.
• 50:31
  I was thinking of the rabbi that we caught in bed with the prostitute.
• 50:34
  What?
• 50:36
  Wait, I couldn't hear you.
• 50:36
  I'm sorry.
• 50:37
  Repeat that louder.
• 50:38
  So I had a client.
• 50:40
  I had a client.
• 50:42
  She was a Robinson of a pretty well-known in their area shul.
• 50:48
  um pretty more on the side of i would say haredi like very very very religious
• 50:59
  and she said i wanted she came to my office said i want a divorce and i said okay what's going on
• 51:08
  she said i went to the doctor i was having some issues and i have an sti
• 51:17
  there's no way I would get an STI I've never touched another man my husband they had a
• 51:23
  which for those of you who don't know what a show is their parents did all the research they met
• 51:29
  essentially in their dining room and they said okay and they were engaged um
• 51:37
  it was so sad because she didn't even know the doctor according to her the doctor had to explain
• 51:40
  to her what an STI was.
• 51:43
  So she had no idea.
• 51:46
  And what happened?
• 51:48
  The guy turned around, the guy,
• 51:49
  the rabbi turned it around, turned it around and said, you, you are with other men.
• 51:55
  I knew it.
• 51:57
  The complete and the whole best that everybody was saying, oh my goodness, look at her.
• 52:04
  She's
• 52:05
  trying to turn the whole case around.
• 52:07
  She obviously is a Zina, which is a prostitute.
• 52:13
  Look at her.
• 52:14
  And we kept saying, okay, he should go get tested.
• 52:17
  Came back completely clean.
• 52:20
  Nothing was wrong with him.
• 52:23
  It was extremely dramatic.
• 52:25
  A lot of back and forth, a lot of hearing.
• 52:27
  She would cry to me.
• 52:27
  I promise I didn't do anything.
• 52:29
  I didn't do anything.
• 52:30
  I promise.
• 52:32
  And all his labs came back
• 52:34
  like nothing.
• 52:35
  So I said, listen, the only way we're going to get through this is we get a PI.
• 52:41
  We have no choice.
• 52:45
  Well, we caught him.
• 52:47
  We had the pictures to prove it.
• 52:49
  We were in Besden,
• 52:52
  came out.
• 52:53
  He did have an STI.
• 52:55
  He just treated it before she did.
• 52:57
  That's why hers
• 52:59
  for so long that she had symptoms.
• 53:04
  I had the pleasure of showing the best in the pictures
• 53:08
  that we got from the PI.
• 53:10
  Mrs. Braun, it's okay.
• 53:11
  It's okay.
• 53:11
  I said, oh, no, no, no.
• 53:12
  You need to
• 53:12
  see this.
• 53:13
  You put my client through hell here.
• 53:15
  No, Mrs. Braun, it's okay.
• 53:17
  It's okay.
• 53:17
  We believe
• 53:18
  you.
• 53:18
  We believe you.
• 53:19
  I said, call on your wife.
• 53:20
  I would like to show your wife these pictures.
• 53:23
  So that way your wife can explain to you in detail because it's not SNEAS.
• 53:28
  they did not want their wives to see that and my client was thank god she was cleared of everything
• 53:37
  and it but it was extremely dramatic at the time I mean extremely dramatic I mean everyone was
• 53:44
  pointing their finger calling her a whore and a prostitute it was crazy it was actually when I
• 53:49
  think of crazy stories that is the first thing that comes to mind and he was a beloved rabbi of
• 53:54
  community.
• 53:56
  He had a shul and he had to leave.
• 54:00
  And it was extremely dramatic in public.
• 54:02
  And
• 54:04
  I'm glad that I always say you're never going to get vindication in Besden.
• 54:07
  I'm sure Carly
• 54:08
  says the same thing about court, but in this very specific situation, there was vindication.
• 54:12
  And I was very happy that my client was able to get it because she went through absolute hell.
• 54:18
  I want to thank you both for coming and sharing because more than anything else,
• 54:23
  My goal wasn't to stir up drama or, you know, any of that, but was to give people enough knowledge and power so that if they are in this circumstance, they have the avenues and the tools to at least the information to at least take their first step.
• 54:43
  So thank you both for being here.
• 54:44
  I really, really appreciate it.
• 54:46
  Of course.
• 54:47
  It's my pleasure.
• 54:47
  Of course.
• 54:48
  My pleasure.
• 54:49
  Bye, guys.
• 54:50
  Thank you.