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BONUS: John Stange on Writing, Book Structure & Marketing · The Daily Writer

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to this special bonus episode.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: You've probably already listened to my interview with John Stocky on the previous episode, so I don't need to recap all of that here.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is a special episode where I ask John some specific questions about the back end of his new book to dwell on these things.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, we talk about the writing, the structure, and a bit about the marketing of the book.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciated hearing the way that John structures his book chapters, and that's one of the highlights of this shorter bonus episode.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're working on a book or you're considering writing a book, then you're gonna find a lot of gold nuggets here.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think you'll especially enjoy John's words of wisdom for aspiring authors toward the end of our conversation.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: So let's dive in.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my bonus interview with John Stongey.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, John, thanks so much for doing this bonus interview.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first ever bonus interview I've done on my podcast.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for for being the first.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to do it.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the honor.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: So for those who are listening to this, I encourage you to first go back and listen to the interview that I just did with John about his book that's coming out called Dwell on These Things.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: That'll help you get a context for what the book is and how it can help people and so forth.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: So in this bonus interview, I want to dive into the behind the scenes of this book and how it how John wrote it.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: And uh really just this is kind of just me picking John's brain about his writing and publishing process.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: You guys just get to listen in.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So this is really what the this is my private coaching session with John.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So this book is laid out in a 31-day challenge type of a format.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: What was your process for writing this book?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, did you have that structure in mind when you started out or did it morph into that eventually?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I actually had it chopped up into 30 sections, and then the publisher asked me to add one more because they wanted to emphasize that it would be useful over the course of a month.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: But my my goal was I wanted it to be an entertaining book that was intensely practical and then had life application that can last beyond reading the book.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: That there would be things that you learned from the book that really stuck with you.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I thought, all right, if I write this into smaller sections like this, it's more likely to get read.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can break it down into smaller thoughts, and maybe people can then put it into action and then come back to it the next day.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would just, yeah, just write it a day at a time, like that, a section at a time, with the goal of it being a uh a one day per chapter type of read.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And how long is each chapter?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I could go back and look at it, but I I didn't happen to think about that until just now.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is each chapter like 2,000 words, 1,500, something like that?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: I need to go back and look because I don't remember off the top of my head exactly.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point I think I would have known that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the uh I could probably do some math here.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you ready?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Could we do math live on a podcast?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: What does it sound like when you're doing math on a podcast?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: But uh for some people, it sounds like pain.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds like pain.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Math sounds like suffering.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I did the math here, and I would say that on average each chapter is probably 1,700 to 1800 words.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as I as I do that math, that sounds about right.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds okay.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe up to 2,000 words per chapter.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but maybe about 1700, 1800, 2000, something like that.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're you've got the book laid out, you know what the chapters are going to be, you have the structure in place.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you go about actually crafting a draft of each chapter?
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have of course I could go back and look at the book, uh, I guess, to answer this question.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: But the way that I tend to structure a nonfiction type of thing is I'll have five to seven main chunks that go in a chapter.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe three to five.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: It depends on what the book is.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: But that's how I approach it.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: How do you approach that?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know a chapter's going to be 1800 words, for example.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you kind of chunk that up into your mind and then you just attack each section of the chapter as you go?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's how you sort of feel like you're making progress through writing that first draft?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I'm writing something or whenever I'm speaking, I try to incor incorporate something that speaks to the head, something that speaks to the heart, and something that speaks to the hands.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So intellect, emotion, and will.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want that to be in everything I'm speaking and in everything that I'm writing.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so that is a loose way that I would break down a chapter in my mind.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I usually try to start the chapter off with something emotional.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if we're gripped emotionally, we tend to stick with something a little bit longer.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then I go from emotion to head.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, data that would be useful.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then I go to hands after that.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So heart, head, and then hands is usually the way I would structure the chapter because I want to encourage people to do something with the information.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So grip the heart, educate the head, and then motivate the hands.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how I would break each chapter up for the most part.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes I would have subsets in there that would emphasize those same three all over again in another subset if there was a particular, just a particular concept that needed to be elaborated on that way.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: But usually I'd start off a chapter maybe with a personal example or a personal story, try to grip the heart with something that would be my own experience, and then go into a spot in the chapter where I try and educate a little and then motivate to actually put it into action.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then how long did it take you to write a first draft of this?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh let's see.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would say uh so the total book came out to be about 224 pages, I think is what it's going to be printed.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it took me maybe about four or five months to write it from start to finish.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one draft?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Not including editing and all that.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, after I submitted it to the publisher, you know, then they had suggested edits.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Although to their credit, I I was surprised.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I actually wondered this.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wondered how much they would want to change.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when they submitted it back to me, they didn't change a whole lot.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: There were a few things that they took out, and uh there were a few things that they suggested, hey, you've used this word too many times throughout the book.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you could come up with another word, the standard things that an editor helps you catch.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I was really surprised because I I've often wondered, you know, when I buy a book in the store, how much of this is exactly like the author really intended, or how much of this uh was kind of focus grouped or changed or altered or whatever.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And to their credit, I was amazed they did not change a whole lot.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: There was one story that I really liked that they asked me not to include.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why they didn't want me to include it.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't really give me a good reason, but I thought, well, I'll save it for another time.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, so I noticed that one of my chapters, it was an early chapter, when I got it back, it was really short.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, how's that even a chapter?
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I did rewrite one of the early chapters, and actually it came out way better than the original in the end.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I I was pleased with the end result, but that was one surprise when I received it back from editing.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, boy, they they chopped half that chapter out.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, what'd they take out?
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I went back and I looked and I thought, oh, apparently they don't like that story.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe there's something to be said as well for you know, editors like ever like all the rest of us, they have to earn their keep in some fashion and prove their worth.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like although I gotta tell you, I love my editor.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: She's she's fantastic, absolutely fantastic.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I honest truth, I I thought she's she's fantastic, but yeah, and I I will tell you that she earned it straight out.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like she definitely made it is truly a better book because of her input.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh then that's been my experience with every client book I've done and my own books is if you have a good editor, they will make the book better.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: Unequivocally.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Editors are sort of like the unsung heroes of the book world.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: They are.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Although I gave her a a shout out at the at the end of the book because I really appreciate her.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll even shout out her name here.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Susan Jaden.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: She's great.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if anyone knows Susan Jaden, she's fantastic.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Don't hesitate to work with her because she's great.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now I would love to ask about uh again, going back to this 31-day challenge format for the book.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something to be said for helping a reader to progress through a book quickly if the chapters are shorter?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess really what I'm asking is do you think that authors should really take this into consideration whenever they are crafting a book, is that shorter chapters usually are better, all things being equal.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do you do you believe that's true, or is am I just making that up?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's true for me.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't know if it's true for everybody.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea, but I I basically wrote a book in a format that I would want to read it.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I know that I have so many books, and maybe you do too, um, that I have intended to read.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that inhibits me from actually finishing a book is if individual chapters are too long.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and so I didn't want to make that mistake because this is a book that I actually want people to do something with it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought if they don't actually complete it, it will have had no effect.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they'll buy it, but it's just gonna sit on a shelf.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: I have so many books, even in the room I'm in right now, in my home office, I'm surrounded by books that someday I hope to read.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I know one of the things that that inhibit me from actually finishing those books is just the structure of the book.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I thought if I structure this book in a practical way that you can consume one chapter a time over the course of a month, and the chapters are just long enough that they hold your interest and teach a valuable concept, but not so long that you're just begging me to move on already.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that was kind of my approach with it.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I really wrote the book to my own preferences as far as uh chapter lengths and stuff like that.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, other people out there are like me.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, at least I know I will read the book.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that has value in itself because in the process of writing a book, that changes you and you're discovering new things and you're expressing your creativity and so forth.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So there is value just in that part of the process.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some people listening to this are wondering all about the publishing process.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the question probably foremost on many people's minds is how do I get a traditional publishing deal?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So can you walk us through how that actually came about?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know you've self-published a lot of stuff, but this is your first traditionally published book.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So how did that actually happen?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: It amazes me that it happened.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but my story is this.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I uh for years I I wanted to be an author.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so years ago, I I wrote a book and then I went a long time before I wrote a second book.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know, I really want to spend more time writing.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I started writing and self-publishing.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And in this era, especially with, you know, with the offerings that Amazon has and and so many other companies have, you can you can publish a book much easier in this era that we have right now than than in previous eras.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I kept doing that, kept doing that.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then finally, you know, as those books were selling reasonably well, I I thought to myself, I I wonder if a publisher, a traditional publisher, would be interested in anything I've written.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so I started looking to see, you know, what does it take to get on their radar?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what I discovered is you need an agent.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got an agent.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so that was a process, just getting signed with an agent, because agents don't just take anyone.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to talk to agents.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and then my agent asked me, all right, what are you working on?
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, it's not even so much what I'm working on.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I just am curious about some of the stuff I've already written.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Would a do you think a traditional publisher would be interested in that?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, he said, no, they they don't want what you've already written.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: They want your new stuff.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he said, so what are you working on?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I told him what I was working on, and he said, the concept that I ended up writing out, you know, in the book that's about to be published here, he said, that's the that's the thing I want you to focus on.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Don't worry about the other things you're writing, just focus on that one.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Write a book proposal, send me some sample chapters, and I'm gonna send that along to some publishing companies, and we'll see if they're interested in in uh possibly signing you to a book deal.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so he shopped it around to the, you know, they talk about the big five, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there's the big five publishers, and he started with them, and he he went through number one on his list and and they seemed a little interested, but not enough to actually sign me, and then number two, and then number three, and I thought, I'm not gonna take this personal because you know, I I believe what I've written here is good, and if no one wants it, that's fine.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'll continue to self-publish.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's maybe that's what I'm supposed to do.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: But the fourth company that he reached out to is Penguin Random House.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Penguin Random House is the biggest of all of them.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: That it was number four.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, uh, yeah, you'd think that he would have started with them, right?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh he reached out to them and they were very interested in it.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they wanted to talk to me and um and you know, hear more about the book, and then hear, and and this is something that those uh who are aspiring writers that listen to your podcast will definitely want to hear.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: They were just as much interested in my book as they were in my platform.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: So they wanted to know do you have a built-in audience already?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, thankfully, at this point, I did.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Years ago, I did not.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't know how important that was going to be to them.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I host several podcasts and I've uh I have a blog, and um, you know, but my podcasts are kind of where my main connection with any, you know, and with an audience would be.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, so they wanted to know all sorts of things about downloads for the podcasts and and uh, you know, tell us about who listens to your podcast and and stuff like that.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was I was amazed at how important that was to them because I thought the most important thing to a publisher would be the quality of the book.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: But in this era in which we live in, that's half of it.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's certainly a huge part of it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the other part is are you already connected with people?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so again, they they asked me to outline every detail for them about my audience.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how many and and the big biggest part of my audience was uh those that listen to my podcasts.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so those of you that listen to podcasts, just so you know, uh you really help the podcaster in a variety of ways.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I I got to give a shout out to to those that listen to my podcasts uh without their help.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: If they didn't listen to these these shows that that I'm I'm producing, I would not have received this book deal, in my opinion.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I would have received it if not for them.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So they play a big part in the success of of anything I'm doing without their help and uh without them being a faithful part of uh of what I'm doing, I I would not have received a a book offer from Penguin Random House.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: So would it be fair to say that if you did not host any podcast, that you would not have gotten a publishing deal with them?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's my impression.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: They never directly said that to me, but I know that it was important to them and valuable to them that I was connected to that many people through podcasting.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: They they thought that that was a good sign.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because keep in mind, they're taking a financial risk on you.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if they hire you, they're basically saying, okay, here we're gonna give you an advance, we're gonna take a risk to spend money to publish this book, and they they want to know if this is a good risk or if this is a bad financial risk.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're already connecting with people, that indicates to them that you know, maybe people would be interested in something this this uh author has written because they're they're obviously interested in the other content that he's producing.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you just seem like a safer risk for them.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're not in the business of of losing money, right?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that that kind of confirms to them that maybe you'd be a safer risk, I think.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: How long did it take from from the time you submitted, or I'm sorry, the time you secured an agent to the time that Penguin Random House uh signed you, how long was that process of shopping around your book proposal to various publishers?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: The total time from when I interacted first and got signed with the agent to when I actually signed the contract with Penguin Random House was right about nine months.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So during that time, there's a lot of waiting and a lot of questions and that's exactly gonna work.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's exactly what my agent said.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: He said, just so you know, this is a he said, get used to waiting.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's really what he said.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: He said, that doesn't mean that things aren't happening, it just means you have to wait.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I waited.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you identify publishers to connect with in the first place?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And what was that process like to actually secure an agent to begin with?
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because that sounds like that's where the process really begins.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I looked through just all sorts of lists that I could find online of people who tended to represent work in the genre that I write from.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I I tend to write faith-based nonfiction.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to know who tends to represent authors who write faith-based nonfiction.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I spoke with a variety of agents.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing: most of the agents you speak to, they may like you and think that you're all well and good, but they may not really be interested at the time in signing anyone new.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: They may just want to work with who they have.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's one of those things, don't take it personal if you don't find an agent right away.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's just a pragmatic thing where they just can't take out at anyone on at the time.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: They they have they're already devoted to who they're they're currently serving.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: But when I started reaching out to agents, intro I basically just introduced myself to a group of agents and uh you know that represented work like I tend to write.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, if uh I'm in the process right now of of looking for an agent.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if anyone would like to talk further, if you'd like to look at some of the things I've already written, if you'd like to take a look at my platform and what else I have going on, please, by all means, you know, let's let's talk.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And several of them reached out.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I heard from plenty that said they weren't looking to work with anyone new at the time, or they just weren't interested in what I was doing.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but several reached out and said, we'd love to talk to you.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And uh the agent I eventually signed with, I really felt like he knew what he was talking about.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I really felt like he was genuinely interested in me and in my writing.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I felt really good about working with them.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, you know what?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh that's who I want to sign with.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I signed with them, and I have to tell you, he delivered.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, my my instincts about him were were correct.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, I'm just really grateful for my agent.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Jim Hart, and um really like working with him.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Just very grateful for all the work that he's done representing me.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just a pleasure to work with.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So is Jim if Jim suddenly gets a uh flood of emails from people like, hey, I heard him on this podcast, uh, he'll know where those came from.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I guess, yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's a somewhat common name, you know, so maybe maybe they won't find him right away.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh no, Jim's fantastic.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, did the publisher have any any thoughts on, you know, because you you've had a lot of self-published books.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: For someone who is used to self-publishing and maybe releasing even two or three books a year, is that something that a traditional publisher will have some thoughts about?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you release a traditionally published book, they probably don't want you releasing a bunch of your own stuff within kind of the year before or after, correct?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they they if they're gonna take a financial investment to to sign you and then promote this and and and do all the things that they're doing, they don't want you inadvertently diluting that investment.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's all it'd almost be like you're you're creating competition for your own book that they're they're trying to promote.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so they did ask that I not publish a whole bunch of stuff right around it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, again, I'm so happy for the opportunity to work with them that that I'm more than happy to honor that request.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and it just makes sense marketing-wise.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if your favorite band comes out with seven albums in the same year, it kind of dilutes what they're they're doing.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: But if every two years they come out with one album, you know, they're able to uh promote it better, they're able to tour to support it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: They're, you know, and I I I think a book contract has a lot of similarity to that.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: You it allows you to stay a bit more focused on um on on what you're trying to encourage people to take a look at.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, a couple more questions here.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um for those who are thinking about writing a book, maybe they would like to do it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's something they want to do, but they're a little afraid to dive into those waters.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say are some of the benefits of being a book author?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a creative person who has the heart of a teacher and you love conveying ideas that are helpful to people, it's very edifying when you know that you've put your best foot forward, you've communicated something that's been taught to you or that you've learned, and it genuinely helps people to live a better life.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I know for me, I mean, I, you know, I I write nonfiction books that are meant to be helpful to people, particularly in the areas uh of their faith or their relationships.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And when people tell me that that something I've written is helpful to them, I feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I'm living out the purpose for which I was created.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really love that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I love that opportunity.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: And even from, you know, if somebody is if you know, if you're attempting to establish You know, a business or or an area of service or something that you're doing.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, in some respects, writing a book, it shows that you're serious about what you're doing.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: A book isn't something that you can just put together in five minutes.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: And uh some people refer to the to the a book as kind of like your best business card ever because it looks like you know, it it's it's something you had to put a lot of yourself into to actually be able to facilitate.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it shows how seriously you you take the concept that you're trying to teach on or promote or or help others with.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: And um so I I think people take you maybe just a little extra more seriously if um if you actually put your thoughts down in a book and uh then share your ideas that way.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, final question here.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have any advice for aspiring authors, people who maybe they've written a book or two, they're thinking about it.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Any other words of advice that you would offer to people who who want to write books?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just just keep working at your craft, keep getting better at it.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And don't feel like everything you write has to be your absolute best book ever.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Just write.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just because you'll you'll paralyze yourself, right?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just just write and uh get your concepts out there, and some of your books will be better than others, but just keep doing it.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't give up, just keep doing it.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then before you know it, you'll have a body of work that you'll be able to look at and say, all right, that's that's actually a useful uh library of content that I've now created.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know when I got to that spot where I looked and I thought, boy, I've written a lot of things now, and you know, the marketplace is starting to validate some of this.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: It egged me on to think that I could do even more with that writing.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of what um made me feel a sense of confidence that maybe it was time to start reaching out to an agent.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was time to look at at some of these um, you know, major publishing houses, maybe something like that.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think other people it worked out for them, why not me?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the things that I I say to myself from time to time.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody else that's ever had something good happen to them, they were just people too, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if it worked out for them, why not me?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why not?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I thought I'm willing to take a chance on myself.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe someone else will.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that that's you know my encouragement to uh an aspiring writer.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: If it can happen for me, it can happen for you.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I could someday go into, and in in my most recent book, I actually do go into some of the details of um you know how life started out for me and some of the the challenging things that I dealt with during that season of life.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and you wouldn't have thought if you looked at where I was in my youth, you wouldn't have thought that anything like this would come to pass.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: You definitely wouldn't have thought that that at some point I'd be an author working with a publisher.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: None of that would have been on your list of expectations for me if you knew me during that season of my life.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody from humble beginnings can actually have an opportunity like that open up for them, I think, you know, if it could happen for me, it can happen literally for anybody.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Man, I love that.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, John, this has been a blast.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, appreciate making time to do this bonus interview.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna start doing these on some podcast episodes, I think.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you've this invitation to do this uh conversation has really given me some interesting creative ideas.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: And Ken, you're you're a great interviewer.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I I really appreciate your interview style, and thanks for giving me the opportunity to be the the first bonus round here.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is this was uh a true pleasure.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and just thanks for the investments that you make in writers.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you're what you're doing is making other people more confident in their writing and you're teaching them skills that are very helpful.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I I consume your content.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So thanks for the content that you put out there.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm I'm a Kent Sanders fan, so it's a privilege to actually be on your show as well.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna take that audio clip and I'm gonna play it for my teenage son.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: All right, make sure he hears it.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: He knows I have a fan out there somewhere.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: You do somewhere out there in the world.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and he should be one too.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've got teenage sons.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, Kent, someday they'll be fans of ours, but you know when they'll be fans of ours?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: It'll be like at least three decades from now.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: No teenage.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is funny.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you grow up and and uh your parents don't know anything when you're a teenager, but then when you kind of develop your own life, you have your own kids and all that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of think, hey, uh old Pops, he knew something way back when.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I should have listened.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: He actually he actually knew what he was talking about.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, John.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: This has been an absolute blast.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate your friendship and all the good things that you're adding out into the world as well.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Kent.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, thanks so much for listening, and I hope that you enjoyed this.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I encourage you to choose one thing you learn from this special bonus episode and put it into practice in your writing.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, and I'll see you tomorrow.