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Mishlei 26:3 - A Rod for the Back of Fools (Part 2) · The Mishlei Podcast

0:21
SPEAKER_03: Okay, this is day two of Michle 263.
0:26
SPEAKER_03: Uh, let's review our uh our facts here.
0:28
SPEAKER_03: So Shot Lasus Mesig La Chamor, the Shavit Lagave K sealing.
0:33
SPEAKER_03: So we translate as a whip for the horse, a brider for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools.
0:37
SPEAKER_03: Uh turns out our scroll and altar are translated exactly like that, both of them.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: First time I've ever seen our scroll and altar translated in exactly the same way.
0:43
SPEAKER_03: Uh so I guess that could happen every once in a while.
0:46
SPEAKER_03: Um, our uh do we have other translations here?
0:49
SPEAKER_03: I think nothing that we really understood or that was significant about like sp you know specific kinds of uh implements here.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: Okay, and then we had our questions.
0:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, what's the decision-making scenario?
1:00
SPEAKER_03: Is this a proactive method of guiding a steel or is it reactive, like a punishment?
1:04
SPEAKER_03: Two, what facts are we supposed to assume about the implements in the mushle?
1:07
SPEAKER_03: Are these implements used to signal to signal these animals, punish them, guide them, something else?
1:11
SPEAKER_03: Three, why are those words used specifically?
1:13
SPEAKER_03: For example, shave it does have an association with punishment, but it also has an association with a walking stick.
1:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, so how many of these connotations are we supposed to factor in?
1:21
SPEAKER_03: Uh four, um, what is the relationship between the two Michelleim?
1:25
SPEAKER_03: Oh, by the way, just total side point.
1:28
SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm teaching Mishle uh 18.
1:31
SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry, no, I uh 10.5.
1:35
SPEAKER_03: I'm teaching Michle 10.5 this morning uh to my high school students, and I saw an interesting like um approach that I think has methodological implications here, uh, just to show you how far connotations go.
1:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, so this is 10.5 says, umir bakites bein maskil, nirdan bakatir bein mevish.
1:55
SPEAKER_03: So uh an intelligent son gathers in the summer, uh uh a shameful son, Mevish, uh is fast asleep at the harvest time.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: So a lot of people comment like or wonder why is it bin mevish?
2:08
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, shameful is the opposite of intelligent, that seems kind of weird.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: So there are traditional answers, okay?
2:13
SPEAKER_03: But then I saw this whole Yomoshe, uh, who I know I know is a recent commentary, but uh um Mevish, Yeshpo Migizras Busha.
2:21
SPEAKER_03: So obviously it's from Busha, uh shameful mevaesh yoldav, he embarrasses his parents, and that's pshat.
2:27
SPEAKER_03: Vyeshpo Migizras Bish, the lush arami.
2:31
SPEAKER_03: Okay, it also is related to the lush of Bish, which is just the Aramaic for Ra, right?
2:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Ben Ra, uh Veshpo Migizras ki boshesh moshe, and it has uh uh implication of uh uh lateness, right?
2:45
SPEAKER_03: The terried, um uh in their in their opinion.
2:49
SPEAKER_03: Uhtsel humakal lases mash mutalab.
2:51
SPEAKER_03: So I thought that was an interesting thing.
2:53
SPEAKER_03: Like we we've we've wondered before why when Mishla uses a weird word, why does it use it?
2:57
SPEAKER_03: So my my go-to answer is to capture um multiple implications for um, like let's say the derak Nister and the Derek Nigla, but this is another interesting one where like this is more poetic, where it'll choose a term that's weird, but also carries associations, you know.
3:13
SPEAKER_03: Uh so I thought that was just a really good example.
3:15
SPEAKER_03: In fact, I have to stick with my uh my system here, uh, where I highlighted in blue for methodology points.
3:23
SPEAKER_03: I think that's my system.
3:25
SPEAKER_03: I fell off the system for for a while, uh uh and just did the yellow.
3:29
SPEAKER_03: All right, anyway, uh back to our review.
3:31
SPEAKER_03: Um oh, so that's what I'm saying here.
3:33
SPEAKER_03: So let's say like shave it.
3:34
SPEAKER_03: So for example, like, you know, I'm not I'm just totally making this up here, but like if you saw a puzzle that had shave it, what's what do you think of with shave it associatively?
3:43
SPEAKER_00: That's possible.
3:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: Right.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: So like that's the kind of thing where like if someone raised that possibility, I'd be like, eh, like that, that's nice.
3:49
SPEAKER_03: That's like drush, you know.
3:51
SPEAKER_03: But you know, in poetry, like things like that can uh can work.
3:59
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.
4:00
SPEAKER_03: Uh okay.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: Four, what is the relationship between the two mushalim in the first half?
4:04
SPEAKER_03: Are they identical or two completely different mashalim or two facets of the same mushal?
4:07
SPEAKER_03: Can we make inferences from the previous for this question?
4:09
SPEAKER_03: Regardless, how do they relate to the Nimshal given the fact that you're not using the KXILIM in the same way you're using these animals?
4:15
SPEAKER_03: So we think.
4:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh five, why are you hitting a Xil?
4:18
SPEAKER_03: What is this meant to accomplish?
4:19
SPEAKER_03: What can we infer about Mirzla's overall stance on corporal punishment as opposed to other methods of musr?
4:23
SPEAKER_03: To what extent is this Lukadhhila or Bidiebid?
4:25
SPEAKER_03: Similarly, where does positive reinforcement fit in?
4:28
SPEAKER_03: Is this meant to be contemplated here or is that a completely different topic?
4:31
SPEAKER_03: Six, who is doing the striking of the Xil?
4:33
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter.
4:33
SPEAKER_03: Seven, who is it talking to, the Xil, the one disciplining him or someone else?
4:36
SPEAKER_03: Eight, what's the relationship between this POSIC and the larger cluster that we are going, at least now in, possibly earlier, about Xilim?
4:44
SPEAKER_03: The next we can deal with Xilim.
4:45
SPEAKER_03: First POSIC also did, but not the previous one.
4:47
SPEAKER_03: What do we make of that?
4:48
SPEAKER_03: What is the cluster?
4:49
SPEAKER_03: And then nine, what's the definition of a Xil in this context?
4:51
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we had approaches yesterday, and then people sent in approaches.
4:54
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so Isaac was talking about harnessing the XEL to get him to do what you want.
5:00
SPEAKER_03: And it's using an intentionally disparaging association of just like you have to drive an animal, you got to drive a XIL, right?
5:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, and you're not relating to him in a more human way.
5:08
SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh it also Isaac was saying it's not giving you a context for why you need to utilize him, it's just telling you the method, okay, which I think is a is a is an acceptable idea.
5:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, and we we elaborate on that later.
5:21
SPEAKER_03: So Isaiah pointed out that the XIL's defining characteristic is to be motivated by short-term gratification, okay.
5:29
SPEAKER_03: Um and sorry, uh short-term gratification and avoiding pain.
5:35
SPEAKER_03: So if you provide him with a painful stimulus, he'll go away from the direction of the pain and towards what whatever gets him away from the pain.
5:43
SPEAKER_03: And um and so I had raised the question yesterday of really the name for that kind of person is an aut sell, right?
5:51
SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh the person who wants to avoid immediate pain.
5:55
SPEAKER_03: Um, but we said that I don't know if I wrote this, we said that the Xiel, though.
6:01
unknown: Hold on.
6:01
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, yeah.
6:02
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, this fits in with uh with this next part.
6:04
SPEAKER_03: So so hold on that thought.
6:06
SPEAKER_03: So Avi Mann said, just as animals can be controlled by because of their reactionary nature, so too the Xiel is reactionary, and that nature is what allows you to affect them in this way.
6:16
SPEAKER_03: Uh in contrast, the Khachum who has brought us a nolad is not reactive, but he's proactive.
6:20
SPEAKER_03: Okay, then we got from what Shmu was suggesting uh at Prasadigone, because the Xil is programmed to assume that reality will bend his will, the only way to break through is by confronting him with something that is real to him that is opposed to his will, namely a painful stimulus he can't just ignore.
6:35
SPEAKER_03: So that is my working theory now about the difference between the Atsel, who just doesn't like immediate pain, versus the Xil, where it like hits him on an existential level of like, I cannot face the fact that reality does not automatically conform to my will.
6:47
SPEAKER_03: And that that can move him as well.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then uh Isaac uh also we we uh clarified Isaac's idea that we're not forced to say that it's corporal punishment.
6:56
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's just used as a uh um excellent paradigm in the Nimshaw and reinforces the implication that the seal is animal like.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what I meant by that.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: Okay, Moshe Levin's not here, so we skip him.
7:07
SPEAKER_03: Um okay, so then Charlie Foyer sent in uh this uh by text.
7:11
SPEAKER_03: One might think that a fool possessing human intellect would be easier to guide than a horse or a donkey.
7:17
SPEAKER_03: The horse and donkey represent two opposite but trainable animal temperaments.
7:19
SPEAKER_03: A horse is wild and energetic, needing a whip to force its focus forward.
7:23
SPEAKER_03: A donkey is lazy and stubborn, needing a bridle to steer its direction.
7:26
SPEAKER_03: Which, by the way, I was going over this with my uh Mishlay um high school class also about Leich El Namallah Atel, uh um uh go to the ant and learn from its ways.
7:36
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so one of the students challenged whether the description of an ant given by Shalom Hamelech is um is accurate, you know.
7:43
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so I mentioned that Rabbi Yaakov Trachman mentioned offhand that he was like read like a book on ants to like figure out whether that was the case.
7:50
SPEAKER_03: But I do think it is acceptable to, when you're using animals for Mashalim, to go with the the animal in the in the popular imagination, you know.
8:00
SPEAKER_03: So like even if this is not exactly accurate, I think we all think of donkeys as stubborn, you know.
8:04
SPEAKER_03: Um uh and so like, you know, I I uh so in case anyone's tempted to like comment on this, all right.
8:10
SPEAKER_03: Even though animals lack reason, they have natural leverage points.
8:13
SPEAKER_03: One can use simple physical reinforcement to direct their flaws into productive work.
8:16
SPEAKER_03: Xio represents a psychological flaw worse than animal stupidity, an arrogant humility to guide uh immunity to guidance.
8:22
SPEAKER_03: Because the fool believes he really he already understands reality, he refuses to let anyone steer his mind like a bridle or channel his energy like a whip.
8:31
SPEAKER_03: Words, reason, and subtle guidance completely fail because his ego rationalizes them away.
8:35
SPEAKER_03: That is why the Pusuk switches to a rod on the back.
8:38
SPEAKER_03: A rod on the back isn't a steering tool, it doesn't train or guide.
8:41
SPEAKER_03: Since the fool refuses to listen to reason or anticipate abstract consequences, you have to bypass his ego entirely and use blunt, undeniable pain to force him to recognize consequences.
8:50
SPEAKER_03: That was a very good shot.
8:51
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
8:51
SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't have any notes.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: Okay, uh, it's a good shot.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, anyone have any comments on that?
8:57
SPEAKER_03: Is he saying that the animal and and the animals are different than the Xiel?
9:02
SPEAKER_03: Yes, the animals are different than the Xiel.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, animals are trainable.
9:05
SPEAKER_03: He was using the animals as trainable based on their temperament, and you use the appropriate tool for training them, but the XEL uh is um is not gonna be, it seems like he's saying it's not gonna be trainable.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: It's just if you want to stop him from doing something, you have to like, you know.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: So does that fit with the way the public says this shape?
9:25
SPEAKER_03: So if you translate the the the VAV as a butt, right, which is always a mishlay move that you can make, right?
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I I don't think that that's a stretch because I think didn't we have that in 25?
9:37
SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm just gonna see if I can refresh my memory from before the summer.
9:43
SPEAKER_03: Uh we we definitely had a a a trio somewhere here, right?
9:49
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah.
9:50
SPEAKER_03: Mefit's the chair of the Kit Shanun ish.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, that's a different that doesn't say above.
9:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:56
SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I I let's put it this way.
9:58
SPEAKER_03: For now, I think because that is a a um a move in Mishleigh, above his butt, I'm gonna say that that that can be.
10:06
SPEAKER_03: Now, could you learn it as an and?
10:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you could also learn it as an and, which is that that you need to so I'm I'm gonna actually just deploy my idea, which is not a full idea.
10:15
SPEAKER_03: This is more of a like uh template for idea.
10:17
SPEAKER_03: An idea is that um uh actually let's just read the Mitsu's David because that's where I thought of it.
10:22
SPEAKER_03: Uh Mitsus David said, Shot.
10:26
SPEAKER_03: Hine shot kukan lahakos boasus, lahatoso haderach.
10:30
SPEAKER_03: So a whip is readied for striking the horse to incline it on the path.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: Uh bridle is readied for the chamor to draw him to whatever place is desirable.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: Veshevit huhan lgufaxilim liyastro lazo vivalto kilo yivaser bidavarim.
10:52
SPEAKER_03: And a uh a rod is readied for the back of Xilim to discipline him to abandon his foolishness because he cannot be chastised by words.
10:59
SPEAKER_03: So I was thinking, like, you know, when you read this, you're struck by the specificity.
11:04
SPEAKER_03: So I was thinking on a very basic level, one of the classical mistakes people make when they use any sort of discipline is they don't consider the nature of the one that they're disciplining in order to see does this correlate with the nature of the person?
11:17
SPEAKER_03: You know, like for example, you know, in Rebbe's parenting serum, right?
11:21
SPEAKER_03: People will will try to um discipline a child talking to them as though they're a little man or a little woman with reason.
11:30
SPEAKER_03: But you can't.
11:31
SPEAKER_03: A child is not a little man or a little woman, right?
11:34
SPEAKER_03: So what was that?
11:39
SPEAKER_03: We'll uh we'll not let people think that that's what Revit recommends, but uh yeah.
11:42
SPEAKER_03: Um but like the example he gave is uh you know like convincing a kid not to uh go into the street.
11:47
SPEAKER_03: Like there is an age where you just have to physically like pull them back, you know.
11:50
SPEAKER_03: Um, but uh so people don't consider the nature of the one who they're disciplining.
11:57
SPEAKER_03: So that's step one.
11:59
SPEAKER_03: Step two is making a particular mistake about what the nature of the thing is.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: So so even if you say, well, a Xil is a human, and humans are are distinguished in their ruach ma malala, you know, uh nefeshkaya, you know, like they have an intellect and they they they use words.
12:16
SPEAKER_03: So I could use words for a Xil.
12:18
SPEAKER_03: No, no, no, there's a specific thing about a character flaw that precludes you from using that as well.
12:23
SPEAKER_03: Um so like I think you could read that as not but but and that just as you we all we all know that you don't drive a donkey in the same way as a horse, right?
12:33
SPEAKER_03: You need to use this specific implement that we all know what it is.
12:35
SPEAKER_03: So, too, you need that specific method for the XEL, and this is what it is.
12:40
SPEAKER_03: So I don't think that's a that I don't think what I'm saying now is like a fiddish, it's like a framework for then now you could just plug in whatever ideas you want.
12:48
SPEAKER_03: You know, so that that was my idea.
12:49
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that you could read Charlie's idea that way as well.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: Not that, I mean, he's again, he's saying that trainable versus not trainable, but if you just say, which is a contrast, but if you just say that, you know, this is how to affect them, then I think that works also.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
13:02
SPEAKER_03: And then we had Steph Spiser who emailed me saying, I would and uh yeah, I would start by comparing the function of each item and the behavior of each animal and how it applies to the seal.
13:11
SPEAKER_03: So the so whips are used to spur a horse forward.
13:14
SPEAKER_03: A horse's instinct and reaction is to run when hit, yet whipping is ineffective for the donkey whose instinct is to freeze when threatened.
13:20
SPEAKER_03: Now, again, I don't know about horses and donkeys, but assuming that's true, that's a good distinction.
13:25
SPEAKER_03: Although a whip can be used for punishment for both animals.
13:28
SPEAKER_03: The area of the body that the whip hits is the flank, the hind quarter is the back, but a bridle moves the head.
13:34
SPEAKER_03: Often it's placed in the mouth or by the nose, but controls the movement of the head through pressure.
13:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, I would then try to figure out the application of each method as it relates to the fool.
13:42
SPEAKER_03: Perhaps there's a difference between how you would deal with a fool with regards to issues of the mouth, for example, speech or the nose, anger, or for the head for direction, versus the pressure on the body, whether for punishment or spurring them forward to a desired goal.
13:54
SPEAKER_03: So again, this is not a complete idea, but I really like the approach of saying, like, um uh, you know, this is how the implement works given the nature of the beast.
14:04
SPEAKER_03: And the only like obstacle here is um is it's not an option, sorry, not an obstacle.
14:11
SPEAKER_03: The only the open question is like, yeah, what's the rod on the back?
14:15
SPEAKER_03: You know, so that's I just wanted to share that in case anyone has anything.
14:18
SPEAKER_03: All right, any any other ideas before we move on to other Mafarsian?
14:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh I did not have uh uh time to do full preparation today because we had a Michleik scenario happen in uh uh in in one of my classes that I had to deal with.
14:32
SPEAKER_03: I'll I'll talk about that afterwards if you're interested.
14:34
SPEAKER_03: I I meant to record it on the on the teacher chat.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: Uh okay.
14:38
SPEAKER_03: Um I'm I I don't think there's anything else in the Matsuda's David that is not just generic.
14:42
SPEAKER_03: So um let's move on.
14:43
SPEAKER_03: Who do we want to deal with?
14:44
SPEAKER_03: Let's do uh let's do the miri because these are usual actually, you know, yeah, let's do the miri.
14:49
SPEAKER_03: All right.
14:50
SPEAKER_03: All right, uh shot lasus meseg lachamor Veshevit Luk Silim Shot Pirusho Shavit.
14:56
SPEAKER_03: Uh so he also says that.
14:57
SPEAKER_03: I guess that might be where the Matsuda steel got it from.
14:59
SPEAKER_03: Uh it's a rod.
15:01
SPEAKER_03: U meseg hu ha shavit shibirosho barzal tahov.
15:05
SPEAKER_03: So a meseg is not a bridle, but a rod that has an iron point inserted into the top.
15:11
SPEAKER_03: Vidokrim bo ha chamor, and you poke the chamor.
15:14
SPEAKER_03: Vinikra Balaz Agolon of Omar Shekamo.
15:18
SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry, I had a clawed inquiry into the Mi'iri because I wanted to see what the Agolone thing is.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I haven't read it yet though.
15:25
SPEAKER_02: Um okay.
15:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh so it said Agolon.
15:32
SPEAKER_03: Well, the last term.
15:33
SPEAKER_03: Here we go.
15:33
SPEAKER_03: The Hebrew uh Agolon is old Akitan.
15:38
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I heard about Akitan.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: That's one of the um older dialect uh languages or dialects.
15:42
SPEAKER_03: Agulhon.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: Old French, okay, then blah blah blah.
15:45
SPEAKER_03: From the Vulgar Latin, or modern blah blah blah blah blah.
15:47
SPEAKER_03: The letter for letter fit is what the algolone is spelling.
15:50
SPEAKER_03: Its primary sense is exactly what Mi'iri describes.
15:52
SPEAKER_03: A long pointed stick fitted with an iron tip used for prodding draft animals for it.
15:56
SPEAKER_03: I don't know what a draft animal is.
15:57
SPEAKER_03: In English, a goad.
15:59
SPEAKER_03: The same word carries uh the secondary senses of spur, a bees, a scorpion sing, sting, and figuratively a spur to action.
16:05
SPEAKER_03: Given Miri's uh purping yung setting, uh the akatan aguhon is the likelier form behind the spelling, although the two are the same word.
16:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
16:13
SPEAKER_03: Um uh well, we were at the Miri.
16:16
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so goad, basically, I think that's a good way to say it.
16:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, the Amar, Shakamosha Susark Vahnagas shave it, the henhakamor L Mesa, Kin Sark Lage Xilum shave it, Lahanhigo Biderhiashara.
16:26
SPEAKER_03: So that's also interesting.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: Lahanhigo Biderachara.
16:29
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that's like an overly optimistic.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't think that a Xil is someone who you can be Manhig on the Derach Yeshara, because he's a Xil.
16:36
SPEAKER_03: That's interesting.
16:37
SPEAKER_03: Vuhuhear Lahaflig Bhishtagluso.
16:39
SPEAKER_03: This is uh uh a lesson that you should be excessive uh in striving to do this with him, vlo yis rasha lakoshi tivav, and not be lax in the hard due to the hardness of his nature.
16:52
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
16:53
SPEAKER_03: That's different than what I think of as what you should do with Ksiel.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: Okay, he is trainable.
16:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
16:59
SPEAKER_03: Uh uh I actually I have a good uh a good analogy that just came to my mind.
17:02
SPEAKER_03: Ukvarbi arno ininakhashini, but gimel, mimenov hu pasuk, the sipsse navon, timsa chokma, the shavit legev chasar lev.
17:09
SPEAKER_03: Let's actually look there in a second.
17:11
SPEAKER_03: But um a good example of this, I think, um, is boot camp, right?
17:16
SPEAKER_03: Boot camp is designed to break even the most stubborn people and to get them to be disciplined, and it works, right?
17:24
SPEAKER_03: Like uh, you know, so so uh that is an interesting thing, and it's it is using uh both physical pain but also the like uh extremely averse stimuli, like being yelled at and being sleep deprived and all this other stuff.
17:39
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I I think that would be the example here that you gotta like uh you know put them through bootcamp.
17:45
SPEAKER_03: Now we know, and I'm sure the Miri knows also, um, that this could easily backfire, right?
17:52
SPEAKER_03: And there are so many people who had very strict upbringings uh from parents who use methods like this, and it actually like ruins the it ruins any hope that the KXIL could um could could be on the Derek Shara.
18:05
SPEAKER_03: And I don't uh you know, I I don't know if this is considered like a cushia on the Pussock, but it is a question that we have to think about.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: Like, when do methods like this backfire and how do you differentiate?
18:16
SPEAKER_03: I think that's an open question, yeah.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: Our horses and Naki is very hard to get to do what you want.
18:21
SPEAKER_03: Um uh I would assume not, because right, because uh people do use them as bees of burden.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think how he's reading that.
18:32
SPEAKER_03: Um that's a good question.
18:36
SPEAKER_03: I I would get I would say he's reading it in by saying just as these are are the effective methods for these animals, this is the effective method for the XEL.
18:45
SPEAKER_03: Not commenting on the easer difficulty.
18:49
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:50
SPEAKER_03: Alright, I don't have the me early um torusheim, I don't think.
18:58
SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna go to the MG catcher.
19:00
SPEAKER_03: I apologize for the uh this always happens, right?
19:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, alright.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: Um and 10 and Miri.
19:15
SPEAKER_02: Where is Mi'iri?
19:17
SPEAKER_02: Miri.
19:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh can I do this?
19:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can do this.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Alright.
19:22
SPEAKER_02: Um which puzzle am I going to?
19:28
SPEAKER_00: Gimel.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: Gimel.
19:30
SPEAKER_03: Gimel, really.
19:31
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
19:32
SPEAKER_03: Yogimel, okay.
19:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I was like, I know what gimel is.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: Uh Gimel's my favorite Mi'iri because the uh 10 10 uh 3 in this is where he says the idea that all natural things can be ascribed directly to Hashem, which is the basis of how I uh I learned a lot of Pasukim Mishle.
19:48
SPEAKER_03: So that one I know.
19:49
SPEAKER_03: That one should be highlighted in blue.
19:50
SPEAKER_03: Uh but there's no Mi'iri in Ahatora.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: All right.
19:52
SPEAKER_02: Um uh where are we?
19:54
SPEAKER_02: Did I go past it?
19:55
SPEAKER_02: No, okay.
19:58
SPEAKER_03: Uh okay, Basivinavun Tim Timsa Chachma.
20:02
SPEAKER_03: Uh is it yeah, uh Vish Lgeev Chaser Lev.
20:05
SPEAKER_03: So in the lips of an understanding person, you will find wisdom and a rod to the back of one who lacks understanding.
20:12
SPEAKER_03: Uh in kin in omro takas geara, but maybe mehaghos xil mea, right?
20:16
SPEAKER_03: I said this is a genre, right?
20:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, a uh uh rebuke frightens an understanding person more than striking a xil a hundred times, which by the way, seems to say that you can't affect a Xil, right?
20:28
SPEAKER_03: Like even striking a hundred times is not gonna frighten him.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: Klomar, Basipse Navan Tim Tokhom, Lahashivikov Davar, Ulhavi Alehem the Tokacham Birkas Tov.
20:36
SPEAKER_03: Um so uh you'll find Chokma to uh turn to return to the rebukers a a statement and to uh uh bring upon them through their tochha birkast tov.
20:52
SPEAKER_03: Sounds like he's saying that you that that you'll um that's an interesting reading.
20:56
SPEAKER_03: It sounds like he's saying if you if you are a Navon and I rebuke you, you're gonna respond with something that is a devar uh oh sorry, with that's a birkas tov.
21:10
SPEAKER_03: Sounds like he's saying that, right?
21:11
SPEAKER_03: And Lahashiv Lamochihav, right?
21:13
SPEAKER_03: You're responding to the mohiah.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I don't know what I don't know what's up with that.
21:22
SPEAKER_03: Uh Uvder Nister, I'm gonna skip the Derek Nister here.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: I uh yeah, uh I think this is what he's getting at here.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: V chasar Laiv.
21:41
SPEAKER_03: I'll read it.
21:41
SPEAKER_03: It might be relevant here.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: All right, the Derek Nister Bidrisha Chachma, she lomid myshtadel, lomid, yereb at motsarchadlus.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: Um you could apply this to the seeking of Kochma that the learner, I don't know, that's a weird uh strives according to what he sees in himself that he needs to strive for.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: So sometimes it'll take one guy uh one or two days, what takes another guy a year or two years.
22:17
SPEAKER_03: Important to remember in Yeshiva.
22:21
SPEAKER_03: So the chidud uh p.
22:24
SPEAKER_03: That's a nice phrase.
22:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh, due to the wideness of his mind, the you know, the abstractness of his mind, the quickness of his understanding, and the sharpness of the sword of his intellect.
22:34
SPEAKER_03: Uh, and the power of memory that he has.
22:38
SPEAKER_03: The ha hefak le hefak, and the opposite with the opposite.
22:43
SPEAKER_03: So it's an example.
22:44
SPEAKER_03: Sha techovshiya guarmalamdo bisfasav uh miad yabin lahem vishaim alehem la shaito.
22:51
SPEAKER_03: So as soon as the words from his teacher uh uh leave his lips, um uh I think it's leave his lips because he's speaking, then immediately he will understand and become wise uh immediately.
23:05
SPEAKER_03: And it'll be permanently saved in his memory.
23:07
SPEAKER_03: Bchaser leaves, and uh one who lacks understanding is the opposite.
23:19
SPEAKER_03: So the the teacher will need to um make the words enter through a rod.
23:23
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if this is literal, um uh even after uh exertion and toil.
23:31
SPEAKER_03: And this is uh pointing out someone who is uh uh you know has an aspect of distortion, not to give up hope of striving in acquiring chachma.
23:47
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but he should prepare himself even more um until he acquires the that which is sod.
23:52
SPEAKER_03: The ain't lo he's not losing.
23:55
SPEAKER_03: And um, there's no um uh there's no excuse due to the hardness of his heart.
24:04
SPEAKER_03: There's hope for anyone and there's an outcome for everyone as long as you have uh uh tremendous toil.
24:17
SPEAKER_03: Well, is this gonna be a whole discourse?
24:18
SPEAKER_03: No.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, we explained it in our youth in Khibra Chuva in uh the fourth parak, uh, that there are four ways that are different in turn in terms.
24:26
SPEAKER_03: Uh bur, varik, va ama arts, bagolem.
24:29
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so a boor, an uh an empty person, an um an ignoramus, and a golem.
24:33
SPEAKER_03: Um, uh undeveloped person is how I like translating golem.
24:38
SPEAKER_03: The word the hard hardest one is a boor.
24:43
SPEAKER_03: He doesn't have any virtues, any like portion of virtues, neither in midos nor in in like ethical midos nor in intellectual virtues.
24:53
SPEAKER_03: Not from his effort, not from his nurture, not from his nature, right?
24:57
SPEAKER_03: So it's like a totally uh void uh person.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: So uh that's why you call a field uh uh you know fallow or uncultivated field when it's not planted and not plowed.
25:16
SPEAKER_03: It's not plowed, sorry, it's not planted and it's not ready to receive zera.
25:22
SPEAKER_03: And all covakomar if it's uh difficult to plow.
25:25
SPEAKER_03: Uh the earth is difficult to plow.
25:28
SPEAKER_03: He needs to strive a lot.
25:33
SPEAKER_03: Just like the Baal Hasada needs to do a lot of work on the field, uh uh with a lot of plowing.
25:45
SPEAKER_03: Um uh even sorry, the abal pichain, nevertheless, isn't the same the same thing?
25:50
SPEAKER_03: The Chachme Musar say that with a lot of work, a person can fix uh uh a desolate, arid field and make it sprout.
26:09
SPEAKER_03: Uh and the the first step in this is to strive uh to be persistent in rebuke and in striking and preemptive in Musar.
26:21
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so one thing you see from this is that when the Miri here says, I already explained it uh there.
26:30
SPEAKER_03: So in 1013, he's talking about in seeking chachma, and it does not seem like he's learning it like a like a Ksil.
26:36
SPEAKER_03: Sounds like he's learning it like a Xil has an active resistance to rebuke, and there's so many Psukim that say that you shouldn't strive to even rebuke a Xil.
26:47
SPEAKER_03: So it sounds like he's applying it to someone who's just very, very um uh difficult to to you know to improve, right?
26:56
SPEAKER_03: So I I I don't think like this is gonna like throw a wrench in my entire theory of a Xil.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: I don't think he's saying that.
27:03
SPEAKER_03: I think he's applying it figuratively.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: Uh and so it's not except in the same way that, for example, we have a um, you know, when you say in Mishle a Psycho or Russia, sometimes you we mean it in a technical jargony sense, and sometimes we just mean it as a good Mishlayic actor or a bad mishlayc actor.
27:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, I think here it sounds like he's saying like someone who you know presents as a KSI, you know, but not the diagnosable misleic malady of KXIL.
27:28
SPEAKER_03: I think you have to say that, like based on your knowledge of Mishlee and based on what he just is referring us to.
27:33
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so now can we get an idea from this?
27:36
SPEAKER_03: Because I think we still did not figure out what the I still don't know if he's saying the gave uh the shave it like Xilim is like hitting, you know, uh, or or what?
27:49
SPEAKER_03: Like it sounded like he was talking figuratively in the other puzzle, right?
27:55
SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like he's just saying um like trying really hard here.
27:59
SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
28:00
SPEAKER_03: By the way, one thing I've noticed differently with the Miri, um, or not differently, one which is a methodology in the Miri is when he um on the one hand he's the clearest of the Mafarsian.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: On the other hand, if he if he already put the cave shear on it, he's not gonna give you that much uh here.
28:17
SPEAKER_03: So you gotta like, you know, work with what you're getting with what you get.
28:24
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't sound like it.
28:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:27
SPEAKER_03: Forceful persistent.
28:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:33
SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you just as a teacher, that this is a very easy thing to forget, that some students just it takes a lot for something to sink in.
28:44
SPEAKER_03: And if that if the student is just clearly not at the level of like IQ, so then it's easy to have Rafamin.
28:54
SPEAKER_03: But if their their uh this quality of theirs is combined with behavior issues, then it's very easy to automatically assume that they are um not trying hard enough or something like that, you know, and like to make it into a moral deficiency.
29:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think that it's important to remember what he said, like some things take a longer time for different people.
29:16
SPEAKER_03: Or let's say, like in um in high school, uh teaching high school, one thing that happens, I'm sure in middle school also, is that like uh, you know, I've always I've always said that with 10th graders, especially 10th grade girls, it's funny because like for the first half of 10th grade, they're extremely childlike and immature.
29:34
SPEAKER_03: And then suddenly there becomes a thing, it's almost like a season of the year where we're like mature, mature, mature, mature, you know, they they just start being more mature.
29:43
SPEAKER_03: And when they're in that earlier developmental stage, like it's very easy to just again chalk this up to being resistant.
29:50
SPEAKER_03: But no, that's just like where they're at in their nature right now.
29:52
SPEAKER_03: And uh and so I think it's just you know, keeping this in mind that there are different level, like I think it's also easy for teachers to have a fantasy that if I am a good teacher or I'm teaching this lesson well, then it should work.
30:05
SPEAKER_03: But like, no, like you can be a good farmer and use good methods of being Zorea, but if the land is not in a state of uh of readiness, either because you haven't plowed it or or it's uh it's arid.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: So then no matter how much you how many seeds you throw onto there, it's just not gonna like sprout.
30:25
SPEAKER_03: So so like you have to recognize don't don't overestimate your own ability as a teacher to to like inject insight into the into the student.
30:34
SPEAKER_03: I think that's like you know, easy to forget.
30:38
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'm I'm I'm satisfied with that just from personal application.
30:42
SPEAKER_03: And it does seem like is again just we should note this though uh uh methodologically that Xil is Lav Davka Xiel.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: That's the first time I've seen that.
30:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
30:52
SPEAKER_03: Who do we want to do next?
30:53
SPEAKER_03: You want to do our uh new friend, uh Robinu Rufshesh benyitkaurundi, who I put in the back of the packet.
30:59
SPEAKER_03: Uh so we can oops.
31:01
SPEAKER_03: Uh where are we?
31:04
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I think we did read the first two, right?
31:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
31:07
SPEAKER_03: So shot luxus.
31:08
SPEAKER_03: So remember, Rufshatius is the one who is explaining the flow.
31:11
SPEAKER_03: Yomark Yafilo Luxilim Bhochichenu Hokihenu Osam in Tovliasram Bedvarim Muharim Uklos Vikidufim.
31:21
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
31:22
SPEAKER_03: So even Xilim, who um when we rebuke them, it's not good to chastise them with ugly words and curses and insults and uh and shame.
31:38
SPEAKER_03: Uh you shouldn't permit the tongue to make itself uh villainous or disgusting uh with uh uh uh a scoundrel statement.
31:56
SPEAKER_03: Uh but if you do have to chastise them, you should chastise them with a rod, just like we we uh drive the sus and the chamor through a shot and a mesek.
32:09
SPEAKER_03: So that's an interesting application.
32:10
SPEAKER_03: So this is a great example of his derek, right?
32:14
SPEAKER_03: That he's Davka assuming that this comes from the last one, which we would not assume because why what are curses relevant to horses and donkeys, right?
32:23
SPEAKER_03: But then you get this beautiful um reading, again, we have to see the idea that so what's the havmina?
32:29
SPEAKER_03: The havmina is that you you should insult, you should use boot camp strategies, right?
32:33
SPEAKER_03: And insult the Xil in order to get him motivated, right?
32:37
SPEAKER_03: And he's saying you shouldn't, you know, it's not a hatter.
32:40
SPEAKER_03: So the question is why not, right?
32:41
SPEAKER_03: And there's two general possibilities either it won't be effective or it will be effective, but it's not good for you, right?
32:48
SPEAKER_03: Meaning like it's it's usser or it's uh gonna be bad for your meetows.
32:51
SPEAKER_03: I think those are the two like general categories, right?
32:53
SPEAKER_03: And he doesn't, I don't think he's giving us a clue.
32:57
SPEAKER_03: Uh if maybe if you take the clue from the previous one, that a unwarranted okay, let's take this then.
33:04
SPEAKER_03: Uh it it would be a kill laskinam.
33:06
SPEAKER_03: How did he translate killashinam?
33:09
SPEAKER_03: Did he say it's a curse that you shouldn't do, or it is uh, or did he not uh thing like this?
33:17
SPEAKER_03: Let's see.
33:27
SPEAKER_03: So it's un uh unwarranted in that case because he didn't do anything to you.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: Uh Vyomar Ki Kasher, Hatiporim Kalusov of Mukhan Lenud uh Nak Vnikba Bamakom Bahina uh Dror, whom Ufe Tamid, Kinkilashinam, Ina Naka Vlo Tavo Lemish Makalolo, Sh Makolo also, Akashikilashinam, we love atashame, clumar, votalum kalbakinam.
33:50
SPEAKER_03: He's your baza to yihu, regilim bakak, ki harbe anashim shogimba uh baza.
33:55
SPEAKER_03: So it could be user or nimas, right?
33:57
SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: That's the case where Imperial wouldn't be kinam these things.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: Right.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: So I but it depends on how you define kinam, right?
34:06
SPEAKER_03: Because in that case, it was in the normal sense that most curses are retaliatory.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: Here it might be kinam in the sense that it is unwarranted as a method of discipline, right?
34:15
SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it's somebody's saying exceal the waist, so it always looks like that that could be as well, right, right.
34:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of pantsing showing.
34:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Shouldn't express anger or yell at that.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Should just remove them from the situation.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, but I just have a thought that maybe it's something similar here.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: That if you like you should treat it like when you get an animal, you're not mad at it, you're just trying to get it to go in the right direction.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: So too with Excel, there's no purpose of just expressing anger or frustration at it, but rather you're realizing you just have to guide this.
34:52
SPEAKER_03: Right.
34:52
SPEAKER_03: So what I'm wondering, so first of all, I have a good example of that, which I'm gonna stop the recording.
34:56
SPEAKER_03: I know I uh hold on a thing, uh pause.
34:58
SPEAKER_03: Uh uh Avi.
35:00
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, also on the point that um Ezra just made.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:04
SPEAKER_04: I was looking, I asked Claude for other examples in in Michele of Shavet, and one of the Psychim is like it starts with Josech Shivto Sonabano.
35:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
35:13
SPEAKER_04: So that like really goes along with the idea.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: Spare the rod spoil the child, right?
35:17
SPEAKER_03: That's the English version of that.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: Right.
35:20
SPEAKER_04: Um, so I think that idea is is true in that like the discipline is not you're not supposed to display that you're you know mad at the child, that you hate the child, but really it's actually out of love.
35:29
unknown: Right.
35:30
SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
35:30
SPEAKER_03: And so the child's development.
35:31
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I see what you're saying, right?
35:32
SPEAKER_03: In terms of the emotion.
35:33
SPEAKER_03: Right.
35:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
35:34
SPEAKER_03: Um, I was gonna say here that um I think you could interpret it that the curse will come back onto you, which is that you do see, well, you know, uh I'm sure this is true with parents, but I feel like I I uh I've heard it more with teachers, is that teachers who do try to use forms of verbal degradation, it really does backfire.
35:56
SPEAKER_03: Like the the student ends up hating the teacher because the teachers made it an ego battle.
36:01
SPEAKER_03: And I think the idea from Charlie Foyer before about you know, hitting I don't I wouldn't say uh hitting like I use the phrase bypasses the ego.
36:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know what he meant by that is that it's a it's a more primal, like, you know, lizard brain type like thing.
36:16
SPEAKER_03: There's still an ego blow as well when you get hit by a superior, right?
36:19
SPEAKER_03: But like like you're you're but but verbal uh insults really like uh like uh cause an ego reaction.
36:27
SPEAKER_03: And I think that that has a way of turning back onto the um the teacher at the very least, because the XEAL is gonna insult him back.
36:36
SPEAKER_03: And if it's in public or if it's in private, it's gonna be bad for the for the teacher's you know reputation, for his emotions or whatever.
36:42
SPEAKER_03: But like um, but it's also gonna backfire that he's not gonna like he's gonna be close off to it.
36:47
SPEAKER_03: Um so I think that is a I again, I think a lot of these ideas that we've said are overlapping in terms of the reality that, for example, um the the like what we said before about how providing him with a stimulus that he can't ignore, uh, that is not in line with his will, for some reason, and I'm sensing this is true, even though I don't know if I could explain it, hitting him will do that and get him to stop.
37:13
SPEAKER_03: But for some reason, if you verbally insult him, I feel like it it he digs in his heels and is more stubborn, even though it's it's a it's a thing that he doesn't want to be true, you just see it happen.
37:24
SPEAKER_03: Like it's just gonna there's gonna be a uh ego battle.
37:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
37:26
SPEAKER_01: I think another idea, like you were sort of starting to say before, yeah, for yourself, it's in lahatya.
37:32
SPEAKER_03: Inlahatia, yeah, right.
37:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think the lush of heter is uh is illustrative here that it is for your own conduct, not not because it is ineffective, even though it is ineffective, is so that's a funny thing, also, right?
37:45
SPEAKER_03: Is that um, I mean, I don't think this is a big uh uh khirf, but like people are very, very, very eager to use heterium for like bad forms of speech because it it's so satisfying, right?
37:57
SPEAKER_03: And so you so you could you could, you know, can in the same ways like people are very eager to speak Lush and Hara if it's about uh uh uh a case where like they think it's mutter, like they just like dive right in.
38:09
SPEAKER_03: Perhaps there's a Havmina here that like, oh, you know, you I'll give I'll give you the the heter.
38:14
SPEAKER_03: Hold on a second, or the the assumed heter.
38:16
SPEAKER_03: Um anyone know where I'm gonna go?
38:20
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go to two places.
38:25
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, a hedger for uh disciplining a XL.
38:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think this is in four.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: Oh no, uh that that's also true, but um uh so Caitan no that's uh hold on a second.
38:40
SPEAKER_03: Uh I think it's in this pair.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
38:45
SPEAKER_03: Harav, this is in Tamator 4-4.
38:47
SPEAKER_03: Harav shalomed volohi vino hatomidim, lo yikoslam the year gaz.
38:52
SPEAKER_03: Uh Rav who taught his uh uh and the students didn't understand, should not get angry and rage.
39:01
SPEAKER_03: He should go and teach it even a thousand times, even wait, sorry, even many times, until they understand the depth of the halakh.
39:09
SPEAKER_03: He also, the Tommy shouldn't say I understood what he didn't understand.
39:13
SPEAKER_03: He should go back and ask even many times.
39:18
SPEAKER_03: And if his Rav gets angry and rages, Yomorloh he should say, Rebbi, Torahiv, Limona Nitzarech, but John Siskovic used to say this in Torah, like Rebbi, Torah.
39:29
SPEAKER_03: Um Rebi, it's Torah, and I need to learn, and my mind is deficient.
39:33
SPEAKER_03: Um I think he goes on.
39:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh, yeah, I'm gonna skip the medim, the Zumanchlohivina Tamidim Bedavermko.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: When are we talking about?
39:42
SPEAKER_03: That's at a time when the Stimi don't understand the matter because of its depth.
39:45
SPEAKER_03: Omne Doshi Katara, or because of his mind when it's uh deficient.
39:53
SPEAKER_03: But if the Rav uh recognizes that they are lax in words of Torah, and um uh I don't know the difference between Misrash el and Misrapeh on them, soft on them, uh, and they don't understand, then he is obligated to rage at them and to embarrass them with words in order to sharpen them.
40:16
SPEAKER_03: Umrukhamim zrog marabatami.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: And regarding this, the theim said, uh cast uh literally cast bile into the tamidim.
40:25
SPEAKER_03: Meaning, I I think I read somewhere, it's like, um, you ever had the experience where you either get very angry or very um embarrassed and like you taste it in your mouth?
40:35
SPEAKER_03: I think there is actually an adrenaline like reaction where you like there's a like a tail, like something happens with your, I don't know what glands or you know.
40:43
SPEAKER_03: Um, so you know, who who do we know who has done this?
40:47
SPEAKER_03: The Rav was very famous for this, especially in the earlier years as opposed to later years.
40:51
SPEAKER_03: I witnessed Rabbi Mann doing this as well, right?
40:54
SPEAKER_03: Being very, very sharp and like, you know, um, and so there is a heter here, but just because there's a heter does not mean that it's good for you.
41:03
SPEAKER_03: Just like even if corporal punishment is mutter, and even if it is warranted, it still is very bad if you're using it as an outlet for your own anger as a discipliner.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: And same thing here, even when you have a heter to shame a student because they're not uh understanding due to their laxity, which again, I don't think usually is a good idea in general, it can affect your Mitos in a bad way.
41:24
SPEAKER_03: So don't just like indulge, you know.
41:26
SPEAKER_03: So I I don't know if that is literally his havamina, but it is a havamina that like there are cases where you you should, you know, or let's say what you said as well.
41:33
SPEAKER_03: Now I see the relevance here is um at the end of Talmud Torah, when he's talking about uh uh Talmud Khacham's right to ostracize someone, uh, you know, Nidui if if they're insulted, he says, um the Hasidim Habishonim would hear people insult them and not respond.
41:58
SPEAKER_03: They would pardon, they would forgive the uh the insulter and pardon him.
42:07
SPEAKER_03: The uh great Fhachamim would praise themselves in their beautiful actions, saying that they never uh ostracized someone uh or or banned him due to their own honor.
42:17
SPEAKER_03: That's the proper path for Tamil Khachimim to walk in.
42:20
SPEAKER_03: Bamid varamurim, what are we talking about?
42:24
SPEAKER_03: That's only if they disparaged him or insulted him in private.
42:27
SPEAKER_03: Well, Tamil Khachamim should be zuhu okherfu adambafarhesia.
42:30
SPEAKER_03: But if a Tamil Khachamim is disparaged or insulted in public, usur l'olem kh al kvo, it's usur to pardon his kabod, uh to forgive his kabbod, be machal nenash.
42:40
SPEAKER_03: And if he if he uh forgives his kabbod, he's punished.
42:48
SPEAKER_03: Rather, he should uh uh take revenge and bear a grudge like a snake, until he asks for forgiveness and part and and uh and pardons him.
42:57
SPEAKER_03: So again, just because this happens to you does not mean that your emotions are automatically lishmah and that you're like, you know, you're being no kim and noteir for the right reasons.
43:07
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's a valid question, like you're in conflict here.
43:11
SPEAKER_03: In other words, there is a reality of coveto Torah, but if you're gonna be indulging these bad mitos, and a Rav should not have bad mitos.
43:19
SPEAKER_03: I mean, no one should have bad meetos, but you know, that's a real conflict.
43:22
SPEAKER_03: Like, uh, I don't know what you're supposed to do in that case.
43:24
SPEAKER_03: Like, if if you know, if if if there's a conflict between covot and your uh, you know, your own uh midos.
43:31
SPEAKER_03: So I just don't know there.
43:31
SPEAKER_03: But that is that is that's another example of the hatter, yeah.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Just regarding this point about not being mantlier.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: Interesting how you shouldn't be mafia bad blinds, rather, but that's not a good thing to do either.
43:42
SPEAKER_03: It's not right, right.
43:43
SPEAKER_03: But I think though that there is, I don't know if this is the answer, but uh I think it is less of a I think again, because egos are not getting involved, I think it's less provocative to him, ego-wise, and it's less harmful for you, ego-wise, uh, to just like uh you know deliver a physical painful stimulus, even though again you you are it's it is uh superior to inferior superiority, inferiority dynamic of hitting someone, you know.
44:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
44:11
SPEAKER_03: Um okay, uh one more thing.
44:14
SPEAKER_03: I just want to quickly look at the raw bag, because he's another, he's uh, you know, another go-to.
44:19
SPEAKER_03: Uh behemos, shilasibas, chasronam yitstarch adam bahan hagasam, lahakosam, kiha adam yanhika sus, bashar yirth, khajielo shot, yakubov yanhika chemor, kishyakot oso, adam bamesig.
44:31
SPEAKER_03: So he look look looks like he's using it the way the miri does when you poke him with a mesig.
44:35
SPEAKER_03: Uh kamine hag humorim, kinyanika adam hakim, bashar yirta kasher, yakia osam bashev direkshi kablum musar.
44:41
SPEAKER_03: All right, so the same as others.
44:42
SPEAKER_03: Okay, this is a good pasak.
44:43
SPEAKER_03: A lot of different uh I'm pleased.
44:46
SPEAKER_03: I I thought this is gonna be one where they all say the same thing, but we got different uh different ideas here.
44:50
SPEAKER_03: Okay, uh till next time.
44:52
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for coming.